The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Boxing with Chris Mannix - Will Saudi Arabia Takeover Boxing?

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

Chris joined by the longtime combat sports writer, Kevin Iole as the guys dive into the future of boxing and if we could see Saudi Arabia becoming the new home for boxing (9:45). They also discuss if Bud Crawford should of had his title stripped from him (26:30), and what the future looks like for GGG. It's all here and more (37:20). #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Terms at Sportsbook.draftkings.com slash basketball terms. This is boxing with Chris Mannix. Oh, somebody punch him in the face. Anthony Joshua is a composed and ferocious finisher. Watch this. Andrew Ruiz is the heavyweight champion. Hosted by S.I's Chris Mannix. That was my moment.

Now with interviews, analysis, and everything going on in the world of boxing. When you have talent, you are given another chance. Here's Chris Manix. And we are back. Boxing with Chris Maddox, part of the Volume Sports Podcast Network. Colin Cowards, Podcast Network. Welcome to everybody listening this week. Thank you for listening every single week.

Make sure you subscribe, rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you download podcast. It's been a busy week in the world of boxing. You've got Saudi Arabia getting neck deep into the sport. Got a big fight this weekend featuring Shakur Stevenson. A lot happening. in the boxing world. Kevin Ioli, the senior boxing writer over at Yahoo Sports, he joins me to break it all down. And I am fascinated to get Kevin's take on what the Saudis are doing. Because after taking over, at least part of the golf world, after making a major impact

in the soccer world, is Saudi Arabia poised to become a big player in the boxing world? That is going to be fascinating to watch over the next weeks and months. So let's jump right into it. but I only senior boxing writer over at Yahoo Sports. And Kevin, I was in New York this past week. You were there. I was watching the Callum Walsh fight this past Thursday. You were obviously there to cover more than that, the bigger deal happening on Saturday in the big room at Madison Square Garden. But, you know, Dana White, the head of UFC, was once again over the weekend asked about working with Francis Ngandu. Obviously, Francis Ngano, coming off that controversial. I don't know if we call it that, but close decision lost to Tyson Fury really acquitted himself quite well.

And now he is returning presumably to mixed martial arts in the PFL. Dana White was asked about matching Francinez up with John Jones, who was the other big star in the heavyweight division in mixed martial arts, the UFC heavyweight champion. Dana was pretty dismissive as you might expect, basically saying, you know, we had Francis over here, we wanted to do the fight, he didn't want to do it, so now we've moved on.

That clearly, you know, Kevin, is the biggest fight you could make in the heavyweight division for mixed martial arts. I'm sure you're not surprised that Dana White reacted the way that he did. But do you think the door is completely shut on the idea of Bengano facing? Okay. See, I don't know. I'm on the outside of mixed martial arts kind of looking in. Not happening. It is not going to happen.

They had other big fights that are bigger than this and just not. You know, the thing that I think people forget. there's a couple things here. PFL is running around acting as if they built Francis and Ghana went to something. You know, they signed him into a contract. And people are saying they allowed him to box. Well, they didn't really allow him to box. Their contract begins in April of 2024.

And so he boxed before he began his contract with them. We'll see if they allow him to box now. He wants to box again after he got a taste of the big payday that he got for fighting Tyson Fury. We'll see if they allow on the box. The UFC came under a lot of criticism for not allowing. that we'll now see if the pfl will face that same thing if he forces them into letting him box again but yeah no i i think that you know ufc has nothing to gain by copro morning right

they went for two years trying to sign francis and gone into an extension uh he went through a number of managers they weren't able to get it done um they finally his contract had expired they released him from his contract and and both parties terminated so they were able to do what they you know, both move on to do what they wanted to do. But no chance of that happening. And I think it's probably for the good. You know, it's just there's a new star on the rise of Aaron, Tom Aspinall, they can deal with that.

Francis has his thing, which I think, you know, he's going to make more money a few boxes because there's nobody in the PFL that he's going to fight that draws beans, right? Francis hasn't been a big draw for them anyways, Chris, at all. And I know the Fury, in the U.S., the Fury in the United States, the Fury had gone in a fight hit like $50,000. Even less. Like, oh, you mean like total?

Like, I think the number of pay-per-view buys were even less than that. Like, honestly, I've heard some numbers that are low, low, low, low. But yeah, I agree with you. The greater point is I agree with you there. And so, you know, they, the number I got came from a pretty good source. That was supposedly the ESPN number. The, they might have done, I heard a little bit more on TV and satellite. But when I say a little bit more, I mean, you know, like 2,000, 2,500 more.

So it just totally tanked. Now, I'm sure they made money in the UK because, you know, Fury would sell in the UK. But certainly in the U.S., it was not a big seller. And Francis hasn't been a big seller in the U.S., so PFL's got their hands full with him. So let me ask you this, because I've weighed in on this a couple of times since that fight. If you were guiding the career of Francis and Ghanu, what direction would you tell him to take over the next year, 18 months? Well, if I'm guiding his career right now, right? with everything that has happened.

I tell them to try to box again, number one. But if MMA becomes the thing, Deonté Water has expressed interest in fighting in MMA, do everything you can to make that fight. Because there's no other fight out there in MMA that Francis can take that's going to be anywhere near, interesting, and sell. The heavyweights in the PFO are mostly Eastern Europeans.

There's a couple of Brazilians, but guys that have lost in the UFC, gone over, and gone into the PFL, or guys that haven't made it into the UFC, they don't have a really good heavyweight division. And so if Francis fights one of their guys that's coming out of that, he might be a 25 to one favorite over anybody that they have. How are you going to sell pay-per-view on that?

And they don't have a really deep rest of their card. The one thing the UFC has going for them, even if you don't like the main event, they always put on really deep cards. So I think, you know, if I'm advising them, I say, well, one or two things, try to box again. secondarily if you have to fight MMA, Diyonte Walter, talk to the Saudis about making a Deonté Wilder fight

because Wilder said he's willing to do it. And I think that would be the one thing that, you know, that Francis could make some dough on and have a little bit of an ongoing because if they fight an MMA, then it brings them back to boxing. And so he gets two out of that. All right. So you mentioned the Saudis and you mentioned Deonté Wilder, which is the perfect segue to the first boxing topic I want to get into.

The Saudis are doing another mega show. Not formally announced yet, but the pieces are in place for a huge event on December 23rd in Saudi Arabia. A lot of big names on this card, Kevin. You've got Anthony Joshua facing Otto Wallin, Deonté Wilder going up against Joseph Parker. This will be the first time that we'll see Anthony Joshua and Deontay Wilder on the same card. Granted, we'd love to see them fight each other, but they will be on the same card for this event. Dimitri Bevel is going to be back in action. We've heard about Daniel Dubois being in action potentially against Jarrell Miller. It is a very, very deep car. You're talking seven, eight fights

where at least the A side is a pretty big name in the boxing world. We do the Saudis. We're looking to do something on December 23rd. Originally, it was going to be Thiori Uc. Now it seems to be kind of an all-star event. What do you make of this event that's being put together in Saudi Arabia? Yeah. Well, you know, the Saudis, Chris, have so much money that they can spend any amount and it's, they're not exceed any budget, right? And they're trying to, I think they're trying to become another Las Vegas, right? And certainly in not just in, in combat sports, but in, you know, just entertainment in general. And look at the transition of Las Vegas over the last couple of years and then the real big transition that they're making. But, you know, we have a Formula One race in Las Vegas this

weekend. You know, now we have an NFL team. We have an NHL team. about to get a major league baseball team. There's going to be a 25,000 seat arena built about a mile south of Mandalay Bay. They're supposedly going to hire an NBA, hold an NBA team. Las Vegas has made that transition, and now you're seeing Saudi Arabia try to get some of that in, you know, via their entertainment dollar. And I think, you know, they're going to go hole in boxing. But I think what they're going to find out is that boxing is not successful unless you're putting the best fighters in the world together. Having a lineup of a side against the, you know, C,

sides or worse is not going to be a recipe for success. Now, for them, they don't care about the pay-per-view results or the ticket sales. They care about people, I think, two things. One, they're trying to get wealthy Brits to vacation there and also consider retiring there, going there and retire. And I think that that's a really big part of what they're trying to do. And I think it's like five or six hours from the UK to Riod. And so that's something that if they can use boxing, where boxing is bigger in the UK than it is here in the United States to accomplish that goal than they've gotten what they want. They're not worried what the pay-per-you numbers are.

They're not worried about what the total gate is like a boxing promoter in the United States would be. So, you know, that's number one. And I think if they can just kind of attract other acts by saying, hey, wow, look at they did, you know, because that opening ceremony they did before. That wasn't my kind of thing, right? I muted the television, but I'm sure there were a lot of acts out there saying, man, I would love to be in the middle of that. And so I think that's what their goal is. And so they're going to

use boxing as long as they can. But I think they're going to find out unless they're putting, if you put A-side versus A-side and they have the money to do it and stack this kind of card, they'll go phenomenally big with that. But it's, you know, the goofy world of boxing and the sanctioning body screw things up as we're seeing what title is getting stripped from champions and whatnot. It's difficult to get all those fights made and everybody on the same schedule. So I question that'll ever happen. I would love to see it because, you know what, it would be great for the fans to get to see a card like that.

Back in the day, I don't know if you were even covering boxing them, but Don King used to put on cards. They would have seven and eight championship fights on these cards. And people would scoff at them, but they would be great fights. And Ricardo Lopez would fight it four in the afternoon, one of the great fighters of all time.

If they get to something like that and they start doing that, Chris, I think they have a chance to do something, but I just don't think the business of boxing will allow that to occur. Yeah, look, the irony of this November 25th Showtime pay-per-view is it's probably the best pay-per-view top to bottom the Showtime has put on because they are putting championship-level fights on that undercard, which we haven't seen in previous Showtime fights. So I think you're right about that. Look, this card is not perfect. I mean, in an ideal world, we are seeing Anthony Joshua against Deonté Wilder at the top of the card. In an ideal world, we're seeing Dimitri Bevel

fight Archer-Betterbe as like a co-made event. That would be a... one of the greatest cards we've ever seen. But Anthony Joshua against Otto Wallin is a credible fight. Otto Walleen is number one, number two contender for one of the sanctioning body titles. Philip Hergevich is going to be on that card. Deonté Wilde against Joseph Parker, Wilder's the favorite in that fight, but Parker's no pushover. Parker's a professional. He's a former world champion has not looked great in recent fights, but credible opponent there. Not so much with you know, I guess the latest is, you know, what is it, Lyndon, was I'm trying to say Linda Johnson, but that's not right.

Dimitri Beaville's opponent is okay. That's moved back and forth over the last, you know, a few days and weeks. Mildly intrigued by a Daniel DuBois, Jarrell Miller fight, frankly. Like, Jarell Miller has been off the grid since his double positive test in 2019 prior to the Anthony Joshua fight. but Dubois against Jarrell Miller, another heavyweight of that mix. Herkovich, he's in that mix. So it's not bad.

It's not perfect, but it's not a bad card. And I'm curious, Kevin, what it might lead to. I mean, I have to imagine that the Saudis are getting into business with Anthony Joshua and Deonté Wilder before the end of the year because they want to be the ones that put on Anthony Joshua against Deonti Wilder sometime next year, right? So we already know they're going to put on Fury against Usik probably in mid-February of 24. Maybe a couple of months after that, you get Joshua against Wilder in early in 2024. Why not? So I think the thought is, the hope is that AJ could be Wallen early. I think that's

going to be a fight that goes rounds. I do, too. That's why I don't think February is. That's probably going to say. See, I think if that fight, so they're going to look. But I have a feeling they would throw that together because the money to them is nothing, right? The money to Bob Aram or Frank Warren or Eddie Hearn or whoever you want to talk about, they can't, they put in a afford to do that kind of fight, but to the Saudis, and they could put that kind of fight card on. And to me, that would be what would grab the world's attention if that's what they're trying to do. You have the undisputed heavyweight championship fight, and maybe you have the person on, and winning the other bout who, after they have their two fights, fights, you know, the winner of that.

I think it makes a lot of sense, but, you know, they put, especially, I think that Joshua Walleen fight is going to be too long of a fight. I could see Wilder blowing out. Joe Parker and getting them out of there and two or three rounds and being able to go again in February because that would be two full months. But I don't know about Walding and Joshua. Lyndon Arthur is the name I was looking for. I always think Lyndon Johnson. And then I think Lyndon Byers too is a hockey fan, Kevin. I never know if Byers. I grew up watching. I grew up watching Lyndon Byers. Every time of here, Lyndon, I think Johnson and Byers. But Lyndon Arthur, Dmitry Beaville, is currently scheduled to face and defend

his title. Look, there's a lot of things the Saudis can do that I think make boxing a little bit more interesting. They do have the capital to put together these mega events, whether it's Fury against Ussik or Wilder against Joshua, or even down the line, Better Beavv against Demetri Beavov. I don't think there's a chance in hell that Better Beavre against Bevo happens unless the Middle East is involved. There just isn't the money for these two guys somewhere else. I mean, Beowl's got a request for, you know, $5 billion a fight. Better Biaf is probably right around that same range. They don't have the fan base. Like they don't sell paper views in the United States. They don't have a bankable location to hold that fight.

They need Riyadh, Abu Dhabi, someplace in the Middle East to step up and put the money into that place. So yeah, I can see the Saudis being in that mix. One of the questions that I've been hearing when I talk to people in boxing is exactly how deep into all this does Saudi Arabia want to go. We remember, Kevin, a few years ago. I was just saying, yeah. Yeah, they create the Live Golf Tour, right?

And they challenge the PGA. And they do it to varying degrees of success. They certainly were able to lure a lot of top players over to Live. And they were so competitive that they eventually forced PGA to merge with them. The barrier for entry for boxing is even lower than the barrier. That's the barrier to entry. Right there. no barrier entry, right. So you can do whatever you want. And promoters will happily fork over

their clients in exchange for a nice pot of cash that you hand them. So I guess my question is, do you think this is the beginning of Saudi Arabia making a play to take over boxing? We saw them do it live. We've seen them do it with international soccer stars, big names, paying them a lot of money. There's always rumors that one day they'll try to get top NBA players to play in Saudi Basketball League, which is an actual league. It does exist in Saudi Arabia. And they do have some affinity for basketball over there. But boxing is the sport that they could ultimately control.

They have the resources and they don't give a damn if they're not selling paper views on it, if they're not drawing big live gates on it. They could do a lot in boxing, Kevin. Do you think that's in play here when it comes to Saudi Arabia? I do, but I don't think it's going to work, right? I do think it's in play if it's successful. and I think they have the money to do it. And I thought about this, and I haven't gotten far enough into it to really want to write about it and explore it.

But I thought about could they do kind of a UFC thing where they create a title, whatever they call it, it wouldn't be the Saudi title, but they create a title that would be equivalent to a world championship title. And then just get weight classes and have them fight in Saudi Arabia on a regular basis and make the fights on a regular basis that you and I and many others have talked about wanting to see all the time that don't happen here in the United States. United States, you know, the sanctioning bodies, they're, you know, their idiocy with what they do and, you know, the money that's an issue. And I think, you know, as you were speaking before you asked that question, you know, I was thinking about how bad the business of boxing is, right? They're paying guys way more money than they can generate. Like, how stupid is that? You know, you don't pay people more money than they can generate, but the business of boxing is out of whack,

and it really hurts the long run. It hurts the sport as a sport. Bivel makes, you know, five million to fight in the U.S. And the promoter ends up losing three million. Why are you paying them five millions, right? I mean, it's just, it doesn't make sense. And, you know, boxing has so many problems. It's not promoted well. There's a million problems to go with boxing.

But the Saudis can overrile that if they want to. I just question once they start to see what they're getting for their money and they start figuring out, okay, is our strategy that I alluded to earlier with the with the British people working, if boxing's the best vehicle for it, right now it's the lowest, you know, common denominator. It's the low fruit hanging on the tree and they're just chopping it off.

But like you said, hey, they could get whatever they want to go over there. When you look at what they did in golf, they took the reigning British Open champion, then they eventually got Kepko. He won the major. I forget which major he won. I think the PGA championship,

but they, you know, they have a couple of the reigning major champions right now in the in live golf and so they can do pretty much their money is there's nobody that's going to say hey i have this moral objection right um ufc is going over there now uh they're going to have a fight night card in march of 2024 w w w's been there for a long time um i i wasn't aware of what you mentioned about the NBA but certainly hey look if there was a way to put an NFL game over there NFL would take the money 100% they would take the money um you know so the Saudi can buy whatever they want.

And it's just going to depend, in my opinion, how they view the success from their terms, not the quality of the boxing in the ring. But what happens outside the ring? What did boxing do for them in terms of their ultimate vision to make Riyadh a big tourist destination? The NBA, you saw the reaction the players had when the Saudis made that offer to, was it the British soccer player Mbapé, who was going to get all in something in the neighborhood of like a billion dollars. basically a million dollar offer, an insane offer.

So I think the prospect of Saudi Arabia luring top NBA players in the same way they lure top soccer players is certainly something that is, I know it's on the radar of the NBA. I know they think about it. They wonder how that's all going to play out. One thing the Saudis showed with the live golf tour

is that they can be the bank roll for something without having all the events in Saudi Arabia. So they could start the Saudi boxing league, or whatever you want to call it. And they could still do a whole bunch of shows in the United States. Like how many live golf events took place on U.S. soil, on European soil? They were there all the time. So the Saudis could pull this off.

They could have the best of both worlds. They could overpay some of these boxers to fight on U.S.-based shows and get big events over there. And then let's say four times per year, you have super events in Saudi Arabia, one in Riyadh, one in Jetta. Like you have them all over the country and you do. these mega events where it's like four or two, three, four big time fights all on the same car. There's a lot they can do. And there's a lot of creativity they can have with the bottomless well of money that they have. So I, look, I'm very curious to see what the interest is in

2024, what the strategy is for Saudi Arabia in 2024. I think they can help boxing. I think that because one of the problems we have in the United States is, you know, they don't draw. So it makes it hard to put the fights together we want. If they do that and they start bringing the fights around, you know, I think it's good. The only bad part I see is from a television standpoint, the more shows in Saudi Arabia, you're going to be, you know, in the morning on the West Coast and you're going to be in, you know, the early afternoon or late afternoon on the East Coast. And how do you draw boxing fans at that time of day on a Saturday afternoon when people

are out enjoying the weekend and whatnot? But, you know, I think they're smart enough that they could get around that and figure a solution to that. But I do think if they feel like boxing is delivering what they want, and I don't think when Liv was founded, Chris, that they were completely finished with their strategy because Riyadh was not finished yet. Riyadh is now finished in the way they want it. And the Riyadh strip is, you know, if you saw the show a couple of weeks ago, look phenomenal. I mean, it looked like the Las Vegas trip. And, you know, we have all these billion and multi-billion dollar hotels. We have one here in Las Vegas, it's three point, how many billion the

opening in a couple of weeks, the Fontainebleau, and they can just snap their fingers and put that kind of stuff up. And so I think if they feel like they get it, they can have a big impact on boxing and not a negative impact, right? I think it could be a positive impact for U.S. boxing fans, but the likelihood of it happening, in my opinion, is law. Yeah. If you make big fights, you're going to have a positive impact on box.

Now, there are downsides, there are tricks. I mean, the Live Golf Tour never got a real TV deal. I mean, they were paying money to networks effectively to put them on the end. They're on the CW. I actually watched them. Yeah, I mean, if I was a bigger golf fan, I probably would watch because I look for the best players in the game, just like in other sports, I watch the best competition.

But it'll be interesting. It really will be interesting to watch because this, it's one thing to do, Fury against Inganu and Fury Against Usik. It's another thing. to put a lot of money into a card with some of the biggest names in boxing, not necessarily fighting each other, which tells me they may be trying to set something up

for the first half of 2024. All right, let's talk about a few things stateside. Terrence Crawford, a couple of months now, a few months now removed from defeating Errol Spence June to win the undisputed Welterweight Championship. He is now... Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. Yep, that's me. Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skisks. hits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right what you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars. fan so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, the unified heavyweight champion after the IBF chose to strip him of his title. Geron Boots Ennis is now the IBF champion at 147 pounds.

This has drawn some criticism, Kevin, because it's not like Terrence Crawford had a lot of time to go and, you know, defend that title. He inherited that title inherited that mandatory defense from Errol Spence Jr. Does the IBF deserve criticism for taking the title away from Terrence Crawford? as quickly as they did. 100%. I mean, so he was at July 29th, I think the day was.

So you're talking August, September, October. So we're three full months in a couple of weeks and in the November. And he's already, and they've already,

you know, taken the belt off of him. Who is Ennis fought that, that's anywhere near who Terrence Crawford fought to become the full champion, right? I mean,

ridiculous. And the thing is, I think, you know, the problem the sanctioning bodies have is they care their own self-interest. Now, I think I get the whole deal about their rules and the, but I think what the sanctioned bodies need to do is come together and all rework their

rules so that they work together with the business of boxing and make this all be, like I feel, Chris, that fighters deserve chances. So you can't just sit on the title and have Terence Crawford sit there and not fight and wait a year and Earl Spence comes back and nobody gets a crack at the championship. I think that they have to defend the titles in a reasonable amount of time and certainly the mandatories have to be taken care of. But I also think that three months, especially when it's a new champion, if Spence had won that fight, okay, go ahead and make him take the mandatory.

But that wasn't the case in this situation. So I think that the rules have to be rewritten. You know, I know the IBF in particular really adhered. very closely to their rules after the Bob Aaron bribery case with the president, Bob Lee, and what was it, 2000 or 2001. And I remember that very vividly. And I think that they're now being very extra cautious in terms of sticking straight down the letter of the law.

But there has to be some wiggle room in this. And plus, you can't make fighters fight, right? You know, this is not like a team sport where there's schedules and people are going to show up on a certain date for games, you know, you've got to get the fighters to agree to fight. But bottom line, I just think the IBF is wrong in this and the sanction bodies. They do some good, I give, especially the WBC, they do drug testing, which I like, they do chair in which I like, but they also do some confounding things. And so, you know, the sanctioned bodies are a double thumbs down for me.

I don't want to totally rip them, but I think they're a big problem in boxing that needs to be solved. Two things I think the IBF did wrong in this situation. One, they didn't have Spence defend that belt against it's mandatory enough. I think it was only one time in the last three or four years that Spence defended it. That was against Carlos Accompo now. 2000, wasn't it? I mean, 2020. Yeah, it was a while ago, a long time ago. So they should have ordered a mandatory title defense between the Ocampo fight and when Spence fought Terence Cromper. Second, they should. should have waited a little longer, right? You didn't need to play this card. Yeah, you didn't need to play this card in early November. You could have waited until the end of the calendar year, or at least until there was some clarity on what was going to happen between Terrence Crawford, narrow Spence when it comes to the rematch. Boots Ennis, look, he got the interim title.

I don't think people were like clamoring for Ennis to be elevated. There really wasn't this overwhelming push publicly, or even from Ennis's camp at this point, to have Ennis be declared the full champion at 147. And just wanted to fight. And I just wanted to fight Terrence Crawford. Belt or no belt. He wanted that opportunity. So I think they could have waited a little bit longer on that.

All that being said, to me it kind of feels like we're talking about semantics here. It's pretty clear to me, Kevin, that Terrence Crawford is not ever going to fight boot sentence. He's effectively said as much. It's pretty clear to me that the only fights that Terrence Crawford, who's what, 35, 36 years old now is going to take our megafights. And megafights, you can count on one hand. We're talking about a rematch with Spence, which isn't the fight it used to be. We're talking about a showdown with Jermel Charlo, if he comes back.

Not the fight it used to be, certainly. Or a Canelo fight, right? And sure, it would have been nice for Crawford if he got the Canello fight in May of next year to be called the Undisputed Champion at 147. Undisputed versus Undisputed once again. It would have been a nice marketing tool. But the reality of this situation is that Crawford is not fighting Boots Ennis. He is not fighting Mario Barrios, who has got the WBC interim title at 147. He is not fighting Imontas Stanionis, who has got the interim title at 147. Or Keith Thurman. He is not fighting Keith Thurman.

He is not fighting, blanking now on... Danny Garcia? No, not Danny Garcia, who beat Alexis Rocha just this past couple of weeks ago. Oh, Santillan. Santhian. Yeah, Giovanni Santion. He's not going to fight him. It's not going to happen. So it is disappointing that the IBF would take this position and approach it this way. But it was going to happen eventually because Terrence Crawford was not going to fight Boots Ennis. So my frustration is tempered because of that. I feel like they could have done things differently.

But at the end of the day, Crawford is most likely never going to defend. his 147 pound titles. Everything he's looking for is north at least one weight class. So I'm, you know, I would hope that like in the first half of next year, if the WBC sees Crawford not looking to defend that title, they elevate Mario Barrios. Like, let's get some things in motion here in 147. So maybe we can get some of these bigger fights happening between these top guys.

You know, when the WBA came out with that thing, super champions, you know, got mocked and it's been misused so badly over the years. But I think that there's a way that the sanctioning bodies could work and use that concept, never call it super champions because that is a problem. But, you know, I have a franchise champion. How about the franchise champion? Let's bring that. Well, we have that one too.

So that was a problem. But I think, you know, if you come up with some solution where the four organizations can work together and we agree, okay, Terence Crawford is undisputed. So we're going to create a separate category for those people. It's good to have these undisputed fights because it gets all the chance. champions together and the people, you take away that excuse from the audience, I don't know who the champions are. Well, guess what? You're going to have an undisputed heavyweight title fight. You're going to have an undisputed light heavyweight title fight. We already have undisputed at 168, 154, 147 down the line.

You know, it's starting to clarify. So now, okay, they create, that creates stars out of these people and recognize, you know, the fact that people recognize who Terrence Crawford is now is a, is a big thing, right? The fact that the general sports public recognizes him as a huge. thing. So let's use that notoriety they get and work together as opposed to working apart from each other. I've never understood why the sanctioning bodies can't say they don't rank other divisions champions. Like, why can't they do it? Or why can't they make a merger of their ratings? Like each of the organization gets to vote and then once, you know, you have the merged ratings and fight in the top 10.

You have a stronger top 10 that way? I just don't get it. I mean, I think that they're, but, you know, Kevin, you do get it, right? Because it's money. It's greed. It's having separate champions than other weight classes have at any given time. It's all about the money. I mean, the WBC just had some boondogl of a convention in what, Uzbekistan.

Like everything that these sanctioning bodies do is about the money. The reason, not to get too off topic, but the reason Jamal Charlo was allowed to hold onto his title, it has been allowed to hold onto his title, despite the fact that he has dumped all over it in the last couple of weeks. weeks and show no interest whatsoever in defending it back at 160 pounds. It's because Maricio Sulebada of the WBC were crossing their fingers and hoping that if it's Jamal-Charlo, Focanello Alvarez, it would be WBC champion versus WBC champion. That's the only reason. It's money.

It's always about the money with these sanctioning bodies at the expense of the integrity of the sport. I had a conversation with Mauricio at Spence Crawford. And I talked to him for about a half an hour about some of the problems that exist with all the organizations and the rules that they have and the things that they do. And he said to me, if you can come up with a way to get everybody to agree, I would agree to implement it right off the bat, right? And like to make the rules more similar so that it works better for all the, for the, at the end of the it should work best for who, the fight fans, right? The fighters and the fight fans. That's who we want to make it best for, right?

this is a business, you're selling a business, you want to bid your best product forward, well, put your biggest fights out there and don't have some arbitrary goofy rule and you have a, at least Boo Sentence is a good fighter who has a potential to be a great fighter. I don't think he's a great fighter yet, and I've been a little disappointed in his last couple of performances, but I would say that he's a guy that has potential to become a star of the level of Spence was or that Crawford is now. So at least we have that. So, but I think you get so many crazy mandatories, Chris, that you know how that is that, you know, who wants to see these fights?

And when Bernard Hopkins wanted to remain undisputed, look at, you know, Marad Haqar and Carl Daniels and the people that he fought to be able to keep his championship. But I think, you know, if Mauricio was true to his word and would talk to, you know, get some kind of organization together and try to see if we can, hey, you're going to still have separate champions, but we're going to have similar rules and similar rankings. that could go a long way. It's never going to solve the problem, but I guess it is what it is at the end of the day. We're in this too long. We're resigned to the mediocrity that they give us. I mean, the rankings are often wild.

You stack up the rankings of each sanctioning body side by side. And it looks like they're being written sometimes by two different sports. You have one guy that might be three or four in one sanctioning bodies ranking, not in the top 15 in the other. It's definitely crazy, you know, cleaning up the sanctions. interesting bodies. That's it. You could do three podcasts, a podcast series about all that. Three-year podcast series. And no question about that. All right, I want to talk about Gannadi Golozkin. You and I, again,

we're in New York. We watched the Kalim Blanche fight. Pat had a chance to catch up with Tom Loeffler, Gannadi's longtime promoter. And, you know, Tom was asked during Fight Week about the future of Goloch, who was not fought since last September when he lost that decision on the trilogy fight to Canelo Alvarez. Tom, in fairness, is not been. as involved the day-to-day with Ghanady Golozkin as he used to be. When he brought Goloffin to the U.S. back in 2012, he was intimately involved. The last three or four years, he has been, it's more nominally involved, I guess, than anything else. Still, he is as close to Gannadi as anyone in the boxing sphere is at the moment.

And look, Tom didn't come out and say it, but it sure sounds like Gannadi is not going to fight anymore. He's past 40 at this point. He's not fought again since last September. plans to fight, at least not anytime soon. And Tom was asked about, you know, you know, kind of Gadda and, you know, what he, what it means to him at this point, what, what his career would look like with it being over. He said, look, Gannadi has earned the right to do whatever he wants. Made a boatload of money. He's accomplished all he needs to accomplish. And that's, if he wants to go out this way, that's perfectly, that should be perfectly fine with everybody. It got me thinking,

Kevin, about the legacy of Gennady Gailofka, because I do believe it is a complicated one. Because from 2012 to 2018, Ganadi Golofkin was everything that was right in boxing, right? He comes to the U.S., he knocks out Gregory Prox. I was at that fight in upstate New York. And so, oh, man, who is this Kazakhstan warrior who will fight anybody? Who says big drama show, who is willing to fight three, sometimes four times in a calendar year,

to matter who it's up against, and built a profile as that kind of fire. So that six-year run was fantastic. That was a Hall of Fame level six-year run. that culminated with that close decision defeat to Canelo Alvarez back in 2018. Since then, though, I don't think this is a hot take, but I have been pretty disappointed in Ganadi Golofkin. Because there were plenty of moments where Golofkin, over the last five years,

could have taken the fights that he spent the previous six years clamoring for. He could have, at any point in time, fought Demetrius Andrade, who was then a title holder at 160. He most likely could have fought Jaime Mungia, who was a 154 title holder, moving up to 160. That would have been a pretty big fight. He could have taken on one of the Charlos, Jamal Charlo's, Jamal-Charlo, at 160 at different times. A lot of things Gennady Golofkin could have done. But instead, he chose to populate his resume with guys like Steve Rolls, which was a comeback

fight after the Canella loss. Sergei Derivanchenko, which turned out to be a great fight, but at the time was not looked at as a high profile type fight. He just has fought guys that are on that second tier. He has not fought top-level guys. And the last five years have been more about inactivity than activity in the ring. So I guess that's my way of saying, Kevin, that, look, Gannadi's a first ballot Hall of Fame.

There's no question about that. But I think his career could have been so much more. If he acted over the last five years of his U.S.-based career as he did, in the first six, I think Gannadi could have had, could have become so much more than he ultimately was. Well, you know, I, a lot of what you just said, I have written repeatedly since the second Canelo fight. You know, why are you fighting Steve Rolls? Why are you fighting Derevichenko? Why aren't you fighting A, B, or C, right? And so I agree with you. You know, the question that comes to me is how great is Ganadi at this point? His career is over and when you look at him. So from the proxified in

2012 until the second Canelo fight, you know, you could argue he won all those fights. You know, I think you and I for both Canello one and two with Gannadi sat right next to each other, as I remember. And, you know, I had Gannadi winning the first and the second to draw. And I think you had the first to draw and Canello winning the second if I remember correctly. No, I actually, I had Gannadi winning both. I had him edging on board scorecards. Yeah, very close.

Competitive. No question. So, right. So he could have been, you know, through the second Canello fight, he could have and it could have been probably maybe should have been undefeated against pretty good competition but he never had that you know other than canelo that really big opponent you know that was in there so now you look and you like you put very aptly his opponent since then who we could have fought and who he who he did wound up fighting that makes you wonder about where you rank him in

the all-time list like i think he was on a path where you could say hey this guy is one of the top five middleways of all time and i especially when you consider his you know how many amateur fights that he have three 400 amateur fights, Olympic silver medalist comes into the pros, you know, has what is it, 20-some consecutive title defenses, all those knockouts. I mean, he had a lot going for him. But now you look at the end of his career and he has, you know, a pretty bad loss to Canello, you know, there, you know, uninspired opposition in Marada and Steve Rolls and whatnot. Don't forget Camille Zarameta. Don't forget that chestnut. Zarameta, the Polish flash was in there. And I think that that knocks him down.

you know, I don't think, you know, you take a hairy greb or a Marvin Hagler, Carlos Monzon, he's not going to be, was never going to be ranked above those guys, you know, in there. But I think he had a chance to sneak up into that, that top five, top seven middleweights of all time. And I think now his end of career drops him down, frankly. I don't think there's any way of it. Who, who, when you sit there, if I said you very quickly, name me Knoll, our Triple G's biggest win, it's tough, right? Who is it?

You'd have to say. Any Jacobs? Well, look, it was pretty clear. The first Connello fight, I thought, was a brazen robbery. Like, I thought he deserved that. But he didn't get it, so we can't. Didn't get it. You're right.

You're right. Yeah, I mean, you're right. But I look at that as a win when I think of, you know, his, you know, when I think of voting into the Hall of Fame and what these guys had in the resume, Danny Jacobs was a really good win, too. He knocked Jacobs down in that fight. That was a quality win when Jacobs was still a very high quality type of guy. But that's really it, because you go back down that list.

and even though he was incredibly active, you're talking about Dominic Wade, Kellbrook, David Lemieux, William Monroe Jr., Martin Murray. These are good fighters, Daniel Geel, but they're Curtis Stevens. Yeah, B-level guys at best. So he was not facing and beating the A-level opponents,

and he had that opportunity when he was still a world champion. You know, he regained one version of his belt, of his title when he beat Daryvin Chanko. So he had opportunities. to fight someone like Demetrius Andrei, which would have been, I think, a fantastic fight. You know, if he fought Andrade in, say, 2019, early 2020.

He could have fought Jermal Charlo at some point. He could have fought Jaime Mugia, which would have been a great fight. As recently it was like a year ago, a Jaime Mungia-Galofkin fight would have been a great fight. This calendar year, actually, if they had been able to put it together, that would have been a great fight.

He just didn't do it. And look, maybe the hunger went out of him a little bit, and I can't blame him for that. This guy was fighting, as you mentioned, hundreds of times in the amateur ranks, clawing his way to the top fighting largely over in Europe, having to fight three, four times a year,

be in training camp all the time when he was fighting early in the U.S. Look, you don't have the same passion for the job when you go through stuff like that. You're only looking for those big ticket items. Look, Gailovka could probably, if he's listening to this show, can probably say, you know what?

What the hell do you know, Chris? I cashed like a $30 million check in my last fight. It all worked out well for me. And in that sense, he's right. But legacy-wise, I think he's been diminished. I don't want to say tarnished, but he's been diminished by his lack of interest in the big fights over the last five years. No, I 100% agree. And you stole the words out of my mouth when you talked about the 30 million check.

When you start making those eight-figure paychecks, it's hard to go back to fighting for $4 million. Right? I mean, like $4 million, which is an enormous amount of money to 99.99% of people in the world, it's penis to a guy who made 30, 20, and 25 million in the preceding few fights. And all of a sudden now, you know, that doesn't get him up and want to get out of four in the morning to run. And it doesn't, you know, all the aches and pains you go through in training camp, you know, to fight a guy that you know is not at your level. And I think that was a really out point that you made.

and you know I think Gannady has like he was a victim in some ways of guys of you know Canelo should have fought him earlier I remember I got a lot of crap um after the Canelo emir Khan fight I was asking I was really trying to put the pressure on Oscar and then canello why not canadi next and they they wanted to fight I think it was Cotto if I'm not mistaken was the next and you know I love Miguel Cotto but Cotto wasn't a middle you know middle weight at that. But Gannatti, you know, Gannady kind of got screwed a little bit there. Because he had a weight to fight Canello, I think he was at less than his best in the

post-Conello career. Then he would have been had he fought, if he had fought Canello 15, 16, 17, and the three fights as opposed to 17, 18, 22, I think it would have been a totally different, you know, run, you know, and we would be looking at him differently. But at the end of the day, it is what it is. and we deal with what he did. And I completely agree with you. I think, you know, that he loses a little bit in terms of, you know,

the reverence with which he will be spoken about down the road. Because you say, who are the big guys that he beat? And yeah, he knocked a lot of guys out. But, you know, matchmaking was a big part of that. And he never went up against the fearsome, you know, guys, you know, like that. So it's unfortunate. You know, part of it was timing. You know, he didn't have a Bernard Hopkins out there.

You know, that was a, you know, imagine if the two of them had been in the same era, would have fight that would have been to have Bernard and Gannady at the top of their games going at it. I mean, that would have been incredible. Yeah. Yeah. That would have been awesome. The head games at that from Bernard would have been incredible.

You just like, yeah, these guys just missed each other by, you know, whether it's Golofkin just missing Prime Canello by three or four years, you know, Golofkin just missing Bernard Hopkins at the other end by three or four years, five years maybe. It's disappointing that we never got to see those types of matchups. A couple more things for you. Shikor Stevenson back in action this weekend. He is in Las Vegas. A Thursday night fight, Kevin.

I love this. I am all for weekday fights. I think in boxing, we put way, way too much focus on doing fights on Saturdays where you wind up competing with college football and doing too many fights at like 1 o'clock in the morning. But that's a conversation for another day. But Chagor Stevens is looking to become a three-division world champion

taking on Edwin de Los Santos. I give DeLessonto's credit for taking this fight. call 40 push for it. Chaucor Stevenson was supposed to face Frank Martin. Frank Martin backs out. But is Della Santos a legitimate threat in this fight? Or we're looking at another easy path to a title for one of the best pound for pound fighters in the sport in Chikor Stevenson?

I have been high on Shakur Stevenson. I have, I think before anybody, I had him ranked in my pound per pound top 10. And I have them way up high right now. I love Chikor Stevenson. And I think he's going to be number one pound per pound. not very distant future and then be number one for a long time. I think that's how good this kid is. I think De La Santes, you know, hey, look, in the Valenzuela fight, you know, he's got a knockout,

look good, you know, wasn't expected. I think he's a decent fighter. I think he's a solid fighter that would give a lot of people a lot of trouble, but not Shakur Stevenson. I mean, I think Shakur Stevenson is in another level. I think that Stevenson, I always was promoting Crawford as, hey, Crawford is going to be a really guy. and some people agree, some people didn't.

But I think Shakur Stevenson has even more potential and higher potential than Terrence Crawford. And I think if he puts it all together, I mean, we're looking at a phenomenal guy here. And I don't see somebody like Adelos Santos as good as he is. And, you know, he's given credit. I mean, you know, he's gone out there and, you know, he's fought undefeated fighters. You know, and not all the undefeated fighters he's fought have been, you know, household names. But Emmanuel Stewart told me one time, he said, you know, undefeated fighters have a mindset

that's different a lot of times than fighters who have three, four, or five losses. And they don't understand losing and they all do anything in the pursuit of victory. And so he always liked to have his fighters fighting people who had that undefeated record, even if

they weren't as highly regarded as somebody else. So, you know, give De Los Santos that he's been fighting some decent opposition in his last, you know, a few fights. But you're running into a buzzsaw with this kid. And this kid can, you know, Stevenson can fight any way you want. He can fight off his back foot.

He is a good mover and he can hit. I think there's so much with Chagor Stevenson. I think he's a superstar in the making. He stays out of trouble, which he's been doing and he's been showing really good. I like him a lot, and I think he's going to look really impressive on Thursday. Chagore Stevenson has made some really good fighters look absolutely ordinary. Jemel Herring, really good fighter. completely overmatched against Chikor Stevenson before getting knocked out in that 10th round.

Oscar Valdez, really good fighter, completely overmatched against Chor Stevenson. Robson can say so, really good fighter, wildly overmatched against Chor Stevenson. Shoshiro Yoshino, undefeated fighter we took on Chor Stevenson. He can't get out of the sixth round in that fight. So Chor, the greatest, the best argument you can make for Chor being special is that he has completely dismantled some B plus level fighters, maybe even A minus in the cases of some guys, along the way to getting to this point. Now, I think he's going to make short work of Dillasanto. I just think he's on a completely different level. The question I have is what is that big fight?

What is that statement fight for Chaucor Steven? Because he hasn't really had it yet. He's had some good wins over top level guys, but he hasn't had that moment. I think Kevin, Maybe you probably heard the same things. I think that Vassil Lomachenko Lomachenko winds up fighting George Cambosos in the first quarter of next year. I think that fight is going to happen

in Australia in the first quarter of next year. That will be for the IBF title. Shakur, after this fight, would have the WBC title. You leave, look, Giovante would be a major fight. Color me skeptical that Javante would step in the ring with Chikor Stevenson at this point.

I love to see it. That would be a monster event. but what is that first statement fight do you think out there in 2024 or beyond for Shakur Stevenson? Yeah, I think it's a tough question, but I think, you know, a Ryan Garcia, a Devin Haney, I think somebody like that. He'd have to go up. He'd have to go up for those. I know, I know. Frank Martin made a huge mistake in my mind.

And that's been, if you look at the PBC, right, what is one of the things that their fighters don't fight? And so when you look at all their guys, you know, we mentioned. the Charlo brothers. Look how infrequently they fought. You just go down the line and those guys don't fight. And now they're putting Dravante Davis and they're trying to, oh, Dravante dictates, bullshit with that stuff. You know, let's make the fights that are good. Forget about this. I control and you control that. That bullshit is what's caused boxing to be in the position it is today. Yeah, you get a score once in a while and you have a big fight. I think Tramante and Chacore will be off the charts big, right? The boxer versus the.

slugger. I mean, to me, like, you could draw a lot of parallels to March 8th, 1971, Ali versus Frazier. And you have Jervanta and the Joe Frazier role in terms of style in the ring, you know, the killer or the hard hitter. And Ali is the box. Shakur is Ali is the boxer and the and the slick guy. And I think that there's a lot that can be done with that fight, Chris. But I agree with you. I think it's highly unlikely to be made or highly unlikely to be made in 24. It's going to be made in like 27 when you know both guys were kind of on the end of it and you know there's still some relevancy but that's what's going to happen. I mean that you know the people involved have shown that that's how they operate. That is what is going to happen. So I think you

I think Chikor has to move. Fight catch weights. I think you know that might be something that he can do. But I don't you know I don't think that there's a big fight for him at 135. to be honest. So I think he has to collect a title, try to put that on his resume to get to as many, you know, do I think he can be a successful welterweight? Yes. You know, I never thought Mayweather would really be a, you know, a 154 pounder. And he went up and won one titles at that way class. And so I think Shakur, similar to Mayweather, could go to maybe 47. I think it would be asking him, you know, starting at Bannonweight, a lot to go up to 47. But I think he could do, he's that special kind of guy. And he has a kind of a little bit of a frame that,

you know, could allow him to do that. But to me, I think that that's his limit and just collect the titles until you get the big fight until somebody decides to, you know, say, I'll take you on and take a risk. You know, the fight I love is a Shakur-Stevenson Williams-a-Peda fight. Now, I know that is more of a fight for the boxing purist because Williams-a-Peda does not have the kind of name, you know, in the mainstream that he has within boxing. A lot of respect from people within boxing because he has become an excellent, and fan-friendly fighter.

You know, Williams of Payta kind of has a pathway to the WBO belt, right? He's ranked, I think, fifth or sixth. There's a couple of guys ahead of him, but no big names, at least not ones that are going to be available. Chaucor's ahead of him in those rankings, but he's going to get the WBC title. Womachenko's ahead of him in those rankings, but he's looking at the IPF title. There's a pathway for Williams-Apeated to get a WBO title shot. If Devin-Haney vacates after December 9th and, you know, if the WBF. BBO acts quickly on making a fight like that.

So first half of next year, if Zapata can capture one of those belts, Zepeda Shakur Stevenson for two belts at 135, that's a really fun fight, because that is a ultimate contrast of styles. We got William Zepado throws like 100 punches around, and Shakur Stevens, who throws like a quarter of that, but Zepeda is not the most accurate puncher, whereas Shakur is incredibly accurate and incredibly powerful with his punches. I just love that fight from a style of perspective, Kevin.

I like the fight because Zepeda's winning, and he, you know, as you mentioned, he's fan friendly. But I think it's a bad fight from, like if you're his management team and you're going to put him in there, other than money, right, if you're going to forget the money, which we can't forget the money. But, you know, other than money from, you're looking at it and you're saying, what does he get out of this career? Because Shakurl pot shot him. I don't think he's ever going to lay a glove on Shakur, right? And Shakur will create angles and with his footwork, you know, he's got such great footwork. And I think Shakur will just bust up his eyes and, you know, it would be one of those fights.

that were, you know, eight to one, you know, nine to zero, and then Shakur will stop him because it's a page I can't see, and Shakur is landing all these clean shots. I think that's what really will happen. So is that a fight that will happen? You know, maybe, you know, I mean, Oscar's now on this crusade about, you know, let's get all the promoters together. Oh, you know, that's your chance.

This is what I'm talking about. This is like, it's time to put your money where your mouth is, if you're Austin, Delaware. Like, you're calling out all these promoters to make the big fights. Well, you've got a guy in. in William Zepeda, who could be in the mix. You could do some cross-promotion to make a fight like that happen. You've also got Hybe Mugia, not to get into him, but you've got to put him in a big fight in

2024. So that would be a good example. Maybe it's an end of 2024 kind of fight, Kevin. Maybe after Zepeda gets two fights under his belt. And look, I'm with you that Chikor wins. I do think it's more competitive than you seem to think because I think Zepeda will touch Chikor. I think he throws so many punches that he will get to Chikor with some stuff.

and give him some problems at different stages during the fight. I think Shor gets to him with a countershot that puts him down, but I think before then, Zepeda has more success than maybe you believe. I'm going to say this. While you were talking, a fight popped into my mind, and we mentioned Oscar's name, so I'm going to throw Oscar out there. I think it's Oscar versus Goddick, right? You know, I mean, do you remember that fight?

Yeah. You know, that's kind of what I think it is, right? you know, you're going to have a A plus guy on this side who has every talent you want to have in boxing, compared to maybe an A minus or B plus guy on this side who has some attributes to him, but he doesn't have all the things that the other guy has. And I just see him, you know, kind of just being, you know, just hot shot it and a lot of jabs cracking him in a face and his head bouncing all over the place and, you know, eventually not being able to go. Now, the thing is, a guy like that, I will admit this, a guy who throws a guy.

a lot of punch and who's aggressive. Sometimes you land one, you know, in the middle of a, you know, something that if you throw a punch, you're intending to land. But I mean, I don't, so I'm not, I'm trying to avoid saying lucky punch. But, you know, if Chacore gets caught, right, there's a possibility he's an octopus and he's throwing and he and Chacore gets caught. But beyond that one little narrow window, I just don't see that happening. That's why I say Oscar versus Gotti.

I think what Zepa and I don't think would hurt Chikor, but I think he has the potential to be up like four, two after six, like because he throws so many punches. Because, look, I remember, you know, seeing the fights with Zepeda against, you know, Jojo Diaz, Zepeda against Bracito Hesta, where early in these fights, he clearly wasn't hurting these guys, especially Jojo with punches. But when you're getting hit with a 10-punch combination throwing nothing back, well, you know, judges are going to take notice of that. And Shakur is a much more judicious puncher than what is.

What does Shakur also do, the Joe Diaz and, and, and that's the thing, you know, that's the thing, you know, that you get a little, once you land that first punch, if you're a guy like Zepeda, then it's easier to land the subsequent punches because now you've hit the guy, you've made contact, you're in punching position, now you can land the rest of those punches. But if you miss that first one and you're here and all of a sudden Chacour, boom, you know, comes back with the jab or the left hand, you know, in your face, it's a totally different scenario. And so that's what I think, Chikor's defensive abilities in it, and how smarty is in the ring. He's going to walk Zepeta into shots, you know, so.

Like to me, like I would rather have seen a Frank Martin fight, but I think Frank Martin looked at it and said he realizes what's going on. And, you know, for the, I'm not saying Frank Martin would turn the fight down. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying he's afraid. But I'm also saying he made a calculated decision. If I'm going to fight this guy for short money, then I want to, you know, I'm not going to take it right now. If I fight them for, you know, bigger money when I have a little bit bigger resume and he has a bigger resume, okay, then I'll take it. But I think Frank Martin and Frank Martin's team and Al Hamon, and they knew what was going on and they look at these two fighters and they see the skills of the two fighters and they knew what would happen.

I get it, but, you know, not to rehash and relitigate this, but Frank Martin, I'd like to say made a business decision, but he has no fight schedule. And God knows what PBC's calendar is going to look like in 2024. and when he gets that next fight and when he gets the bigger fight and what that bigger fight is for him out there? Is he going to get Jervante? If you're in the PVC and you're not Javanta Davis, Chris,

with their situation with Showtime and their TV thing, how do you become a star? You don't even know if you're going to be on TV or if you're, Frank Martin has to be on over-the-air TV, something that's accepted or very low. Or be very active. Or be very active.

Right. We're fighting three times here. So people can see them. It's not going to become a big fight of Frank Martin's nowhere and nobody sees. them and then all of a sudden, oh, hey, Frank Martin's won four fights, it's time to fight Shikor. Nobody sees them. It's not a big fight.

Yeah, it definitely is not. We'll see what happens with the PBC stuff early next year. It's always something worth watching. All right, follow Kevin Ioli on social media at Kevin I on Twitter. Read his stuff over at Yahoo Sports. Kevin, great to catch up, man. Always appreciate your time. All right, brother. I appreciate you, man. Thanks.

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