The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 'Boys and Girl - Debating McCarthy's Dallas Future; 4-Time All-Pro Cowboy Darren Woodson on Dak; WR Guru David Robinson Talks Dez

Episode Date: December 4, 2020

On today’s episode of the 'Boys and Girl Podcast, Jane and Bobby ask whether Mike McCarthy is the guy to lead the Cowboys into the future. Plus, former Cowboys safety Darren Woodson stops by to discuss being a semi-finalist for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. And wide receivers trainer David Robinson joins the show to talk about his work with Dez Bryant. Follow Jane and Bobby on Twitter and subscribe to get all the latest inside information from two of the most connected people in the Cowboys’ community. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

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And those giving themselves a little love. Go to FtD.com and save 15% through February 4th. with Code Crush 15 and celebrate your love story with iconic roses, florals, and gifts from FTT. Hello, boys and girls. Welcome in to the Boys and Girl podcast with Cowboys NFL Network reporter Jane Slater and NFL network producer Bobby Belt, a Cowboys community with the inside scoop on the Dallas Cowboys. Now, coming straight to you from the Lone Star State, here's a cowboy's. Jane and Bobby. Well, look, I know we've been on a bit of a hiatus this year.

A little bit like this NFL football season, unpredictable, frustrating. At times, I find myself much like the fans, wondering where to even go with this show as it relates to the talent, the direction why fans should still be watching. They didn't give you much to be thankful for on Thanksgiving. So I just told Bobby, we needed just to stop down for a bit. So but we're back. Just breathe. Because, you know, we'll talk about the Ravens game.

Something to be excited about. Former 88 Des Bryant going to be on the other side of the ball. And getting the shot that we both thought that he deserved and did deserve and looking forward to that one. So they're cowboy fans, something to look forward to. Yeah, he's actually looked pretty good out there, I think. And we'll talk to David Robinson, his receiver's training. a little bit later and get kind of his perspective.

But I think he's looked good. And I'm excited to see exactly what kind of, you know, his big motto right now is keep that same energy. I'm interested to see what kind of energy he comes in there with. I want to see if it's going to be just kind of like cool, calm assassin type or if he's just going to get like super amped up. Because I can honestly see it going either way. I could see him coming in there going,

this is all business and just I'm going to play it cool. And I could also see him just getting like really jacked up and excited for this game. But I think everybody's going to be excited from both fan bases to watch this and see that. I mean, that is the storyline for this game other than the fact that, you know, it's the first time they're playing on Tuesday in the history of the franchise, which is a little odd. And this is all related to all the COVID problems that the Ravens have had.

They've had a bit of an outbreak there and caused Lamar Jackson to miss the last game. But he should be back for this one. Ravens kind of reeling a little bit. They've lost three in a row, four out of five. and they're definitely looking to bounce back. Can we just stop down and talk about RG3's post-game outfit? Did you see it? I didn't see it.

I just know how RG-3 is dressed in the past. Didn't he wear Superman socks to the Heisman ceremony years ago? This was this furry, fabulous coat, and he had the mask on, and honestly, all I could focus on was the coat and the swag. I've sort of missed, you know, you talk about keeping the same energy. at least give me something to be excited about in some of these post games on Zoom this year. So shout out to RG3, the last Washington Redskins quarterback ahead of last Thanksgiving,

as you and I pointed out on Game Day, that actually beat the Cowboys. Yes, yeah. And now I'm not seeing the outfit, would you describe it as Cam Newton-esque? Was it like in the mold of a Cam Newton outfit? Now, look, it wasn't a full commitment. What I appreciate about Cam Newton is he fully commits. In other words, if he's going for a vibe and a look, he's got the hat, he's got the hair, he's got the accessories, it's color coordinated. It is a full commitment.

This wasn't a full commit, but at least he put just a little bit of effort into that postgame look for me. And when I say look, I mean look, L-E-W-K, as the kids would say. Well, unless, you know, there's some unforeseen circumstance that prevents Lamar Jackson from playing, you won't get to see that look after the, the Cowboys game, but I think, look, there, look. See, that's, that's one that's, I'm getting old, because that's way, whatever that is, that's out of my vernacular. I didn't know that was a thing. I'm just trying to stay relevant. You're the one who keeps me relevant. And like, it's, it's really hit me in the last two years, I guess, especially as my son gets up towards, like, high school age. Like, it's hitting me, like, how much I, and just out of touch with things. I remember,

you remember we interviewed Troy Pride last year from Notre Dame. leading up to the draft. Before that, I had seen him out at Michael Johnson performance, and I had given them a list of names of people I wanted to talk to. And so they brought Troy over and said, Bobby, this is Troy Pride. Troy Pride, this is Bobby Belt. And Troy goes, Mr. Belt, and he sticks his hand out. And I said, I shake his hand. He goes, he said, I don't know why. He said, you just struck me as more of a Mr. Belt than a Bobby. And that killed me. That hurt to hear. And I was sitting there thinking like,

dude, come on, we're like the same age. And then I realized pretty quick. I'm like, no, I'm like eight years older than you. Holy crap. Like, this is all flying by pretty quick. The worst is when you get called man in the locker room. I mean, I appreciate it. But it's ma'am.

The weirdest, though, is when like a 19-year-old girl is checking me out somewhere. And she's like, here you go, sweetie. And I'm like, I'm old enough to be your mother. So, yeah. So this is where we're at with. the cowboy season though, Bobby. We're talking about everything but them. No, no, no.

See, we're going to be talking about them soon because they are going to be so bad that they're going to be picking really good players in the draft. And there's going to be. That's what I wanted to ask you. I mean, and what direction should we, because here's the deal. I thought the game against Washington was a pivotal moment for them coming off the big win against the Vikings. And I had done a show with the Washington football teams media.

And it was after Marcus Paul's death, which was an awful week. last week. And they thought they were going to play for Marcus. And I said to them at that time, I don't know if I believe that. And here's why. They were going to do it for number four this year. And they laid an egg for what, three, four, five games straight after that. Yeah. And I think there's, that's a nice sentiment from, I think, Disney movies of go out there and play for, let's rally together and we're going to do the impossible to rally for this person. In reality, most of the time in professional sports, teams come out very distracted when they lose their leader like Dak Prescott. Or they lose a guy like Marcus Paul, who's the strength coordinator, who is the coach they see the most out of any of their coaches. That is the guy every single player sees the most because the strength coach is the one that's allowed to be with them during OTA or during the offseason program. That's the guy that they talk to more than anybody. generally players are going to be closer to the strength coach than a lot of the others. And so it's a nice sentiment.

Everybody would like to think they were going to rally. But I think what you saw on Thanksgiving was more of reality, which is guys who are human and, you know, are distracted and grieving and their head's not totally there for that game, you know, a day after losing somebody they were close to. I think it's a mixture of that. I think it's a talent issue. and I'll continue to go back to the coaching thing. I mean, I think, look, I think the players after the report,

and I know it wasn't well received, I think that the locker room galvanized a little bit. They were able to have a unified villain, us against them. And it just, it fell flat because there are a lot of these things to be true, right? And I say that because, you've got Ron Rivera who came in here first year as a head coach, and Ron and I talked ahead of this game. And I said, how would you describe your year?

And he said, tumultuous. That was the word he used. And if you think about Ron coming in, leaves Carolina, you have the scandal as it related to the cheerleaders and the franchise and the owner. You had the name change that was significant. George Lloyd really rattled Ron and the way that he talked to his player

and how he tried to relate to them. He's on his third quarterback. Alex Smith, the guy that not only was told he may not play again, they didn't know if he was going to make it because of the infection in his leg. Multiple injuries to their team, and he played with Marcus Paul. That was his teammate in Chicago. And dealing with cancer treatments. And dealing with cancer treatments.

And on the road found a way to win. This week, I'm going to Nashville, and I'm covering the Cleveland Browns. Kevin Stifansky, first year as a head coach. never been a head coach anywhere else, no skins on the wall, that entire defense is decimated. All of those draft picks that they were excited about, add Ronnie Harris at the Lick list, injured reserve this week. Sure, they've got Nick Chubb, they've got Kareem Hunt, Baker Mayfield inconsistent.

They're eight and three. This is a team that's in the playoff hunt for the first time since 2002. So again, I understand a lot of things have happened to this Cowboys team this year. And it didn't get any better when you saw Zach Martin come out of the game. That just felt like final nail in the coffin for this team. I feel like there's no starters left or guys of recognition. Of course, you've got Jay. I'm being a little dramatic.

You've got Jalen Smith, Sean Lee, Layton Vandresh, but not enough to keep this boat afloat. But I look at some of the excuses that other teams can point to. And I'm sitting there going, but the Cowboys have managed how many ones this year? Yeah. And I think it's, if there's ever been, I think, a better testament, and obviously they struggled early on. But if there's ever been a better testament for the question of should you pay Dak Prescott, I think the total meltdown when not just on the field, but just seemingly the total meltdown in chemistry and everything else when he was removed from that locker room on a daily basis was kind of that had to be eye opening. And I think that Jerry's always talked a little more affirmatively about Dak's future. and just nope, he's staying here. He's always said that publicly. That's what he said. Steven's been a little bit more, you know,

well, we want to get this done. It's our intent. We want to get this done. I've noticed in the last month or so kind of a shift at his where it's, you know, if DAC comes up, that that's the name that he said, you know, well, Dax are our quarterback and we're going to, I think that there's been a realization within that building of not just what he

means on the football field, but what he means to that locker room. And I think they're probably doing a lot of internal evaluation, not just about what to do about DAC moving, forward, but just also going, and even DAC coming back isn't going to fix all of these, these issues that we seem to have with communication on the field and, and during the practice week and some of these things. And so I think you're definitely in for a number of changes, even if they're not in terms of personnel or staff, I think structural changes will,

be a focus for the Cowboys this offseason, because I think they realize this, this can't be executed in this manner again, moving forward. Maybe we can say, this staff or save some of these players and then keep them around. But structurally, something's got to change. You know, I heard something interesting. Again, when I was on the calls, it was with one of the Titans player, their defensive tackle, was talking about Mike Vrabel and how Rabel has really helped these guys this year because specifically he said when he was going through rehab, Rabel has won Super Bowls with the Patriots.

He's played the game. He's not far removed from them. he's not that much older than them. And before we kind of scoffed this notion of the Sean McVease and the Cliff Kingsbury and today, I look down at my notes and I'm like, I'm older than Kevin Stefansky. Like I'm now becoming older than some of these coaches. And so I think there's an initial reluctance.

Why bring in these young guys? But when that player started talking about how they related to Mike Vrable and, you know, especially in a season like this, I do wonder if the Cowboys second. guess the fact that they didn't go younger. We know that they had at least talked to or kicked the idea around, but remember they kept saying, we want someone that's got skins on the wall, someone that's got experiences. I just, I wonder if when you look around the league and you see, yes, there are guys, the Sean Payton's, the world, the John Harbauls that get it done, that have been around

for a while. But just the way this game is now, the nuances that come with social media, And sort of, you know, again, I point to Mike Rabel. He's got Taylor Luan and those guys that have a podcast. Like they're podcasting during the season. Mike McCarthy doesn't want anything that's being said in his meetings going out to the public. But you've got Taylor Luan and Will Compton literally sitting on a bus shooting, shooting the breeze cam, Jordan and Mark Ingram during the week. I just, I wonder if when they're sitting at home at night or over Christmas, the conversation doesn't come up with, we might like Mike.

but should, if we were going to make wholesale changes, should we have gone the Mike no ones of the world? Should we have gone the Mike McCarthy's? Or should we have gone younger? I think it's interesting, especially because I think there's two forms of potential regret here. And one of them I've heard Jerry hint at recently in an interview he gave to 105 through the fan where he said, I think it was last week to Sean and RJ. He said, you know, if there was a year where you really wanted continuity,

this would have been the one. And it almost just struck me as kind of like, man, if we knew this was coming, we would have just said, all right, well, we're going to give Jason one more year because we can't risk a changeover. And so I do think that usually I think when you hear Jerry say something, there's no throwaway lines I don't feel like in Jerry's interviews. I feel like when Jerry says something, he's either getting straight to the heart with you or if it sounds like it's kind of off or just a throwaway comment, that's more just he's, he's externalizing something that's been said internally during the week. And yeah, he's taking it out of the coach

meetings or the staff meetings and he's now saying, so you know those conversations have been had of man, if we could do this over again and we knew this was coming, we probably would have just said Jason for another year. But I think that's one level of regret. I think the other one is we talked to Charles Robinson when they hired Mike McCarthy and he said that he was told that Matt Rule, who's having success in Carolina looks like a really got a bright future there and somebody who was coaching in the state of Texas, not too far from Dallas and Waco, that Matt Rule had told people privately, according to Charles Robinson, that he was surprised he didn't get a call.

Like, he doesn't know if he would have taken the job, but he was expecting a call from the Cowboys. And then the fact that he didn't get one kind of confused him, like, am I missing something here? Why wouldn't I be somebody they'd want to talk to? And I think that's how a lot of people felt when the McCarthy hire was made of, yeah, he's got skins on the wall, but that was an awfully quick decision. You interviewed your Rooney Rule candidate,

and then you interviewed Mike McCarthy, and you didn't let Mike McCarthy leave. and I wonder if you're as to your point I think the cowboys are internally wondering I don't know if I should use this analogy and go there but it's like you're holding out for your soulmate but you went out and had a bunch of drinks

and you just ended up with the last guy standing at the bar and he kind of settled the way they described that night you know the grabbing of the shoulder and the couple of drinks and the dinner and you know Jerry Jones Jr. Hell and dad, we found our guy. Just the way the whole thing went down was interesting.

And far more interesting to me is, as I had reported last year, they had had the conversation about Urban Meyer. And lo and behold, he might end up in the state of Texas right down south with Tom Herman. And I bring up these comparisons a lot between the University of Texas and Dallas Cowboys, because they feel very similar to me. The fan base wants a media. at wins. They remember what it was like to be great. They don't have the patience to wait for you to be great. They look at other programs and say, look, they turned it around overnight. They caught lightning

in a bottle, but we should do it because we're Texas. We're the Dallas Cowboys. We can throw all the money at the things. But to find the Jimmy Johnson's of the world and to find the Mac Browns is hard because you answer to so many people and you are expected to be father, discipline, politician, lobbyist. It's hard to have that job. And as we discussed, did the Cowboys have buyer's remorse?

I often wonder if Mike McCarthy regrets the decision. He doesn't strike me as someone who backs down from a challenge. And I do think that he was given extraordinary circumstances to come back after a year away from football.

Now, that's different than Stefansky. Stefansky was with Minnesota all those years. But I just wonder if knowing the scrutiny that I think, I think it was all fun in games until that Thanksgiving game. And we saw the media sort of turn on him. And it just felt like everyone from players, what were we five games in when I reported that,

six games in? People turned on Mike quick. I mean, typically it takes a little. bit longer. It takes a season. It takes, this was an extraordinary season, though. But I just, I think all the hits that kept coming to Mike this year, I felt for him as a man, as a father, as a husband. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the game.

and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, This platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment.

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Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim?

Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack.

I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table. right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host,

and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person

while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different. intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keer Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. And as a son, people that are watching this thing play out and he's in the thick of it here, I feel for him because it does feel like there have been an extraordinary

amount of circumstances that have come his way. And he just felt completely exhausted after that presser, emotionally exhausted, physically exhausted. And the Cowboys sort of got this gift of a mini buy week and they certainly needed it. I just don't know what they play for at this point. Are you ready for the big day? Not your big day? Her big day. Valentine's Day. Celebrate the one who caught your heart and go to FTT.com to save 15% through February 14th with Code Crush 15. on fresh. Florist delivered flowers for your sweetheart. See website for details. FTT, give with meaning.

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Looks like Dad has the bag's daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Dipers and toys are everywhere. Ooh, but Mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter who looks to be about nine or ten has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed and they're off. Ah, but looks like mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car. And there it goes.

Oh, that's a shame. That mug was a fam favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their age and size. Learn more at nhtsa.gov slash the right seat. Visit nhtsa.com. slash the right seat brought to you by mitza and the ad council yeah because i mean even when they had

things to play for they didn't seem to want to play and that's been the case for a lot of this season there've been very few games where they've gone out there and they've looked like they're ready and like they're like they're ready to go out there and attack it um and i don't know that mike mccarthy regrets coming here i think it's different than he thought it'd be obviously outside of just the covid thing i don't know and you and i've had this conversation off the year i don't know that Mike McCarthy fully grasped what it meant to be the coach of the Cowboys. I don't know if he knew exactly like the gravity behind everything he'd say at a press conference, how much people were going to want to talk to his players, how much, you know,

and this is in a year where we don't even get Jerry Post game out in the lot. Could you imagine some of the potential drama we could have had if Jerry would have said the wrong thing? And then Mike gets asked about it in the press conference. And it's setting up for, I think. He doesn't even know what a normal year looks like. No. This is a lot. No, I think it may be another year of growing pains if he's back next year, just dealing with the logistics of, oh, this is what normal Cowboys is like.

I mean, this. I had a revealing conversation with a coach last week. I had coach in the league. And I asked him, I said, would you want the Cowboy job? He said, knowing what I know now and what it's taken me to build the franchise and the team that I have, that is not a job for somebody long in the tooth. In other words, this job requires youth. This job requires an eager individual.

This job requires somebody with enthusiasm. And I'm not saying Mike doesn't have all those things. I think you can be out of the game, kind of like does, and want to come back so bad. But it does require this fifth gear that, when you got some of these challenges and you've done it one way for so long, it's hard to keep finding that gear again. Like you get up the first time, you get up the second time, you get up the hits keep coming this year for him. And I 100% believe that Mike McCarthy is going to be

back next year. I just don't know how different it's going to be just given everything that comes with the Cowboys. And again, I just wonder if a Matt Rule, an Urban Meyer, a Lincoln Riley, a Kevin Stefansky, one of those guys would have been better suited for the challenge in Dallas. And like I said, I was fascinated to hear that take from someone who's been in the league and them saying, it's not a job that I want. And here's why. Well, and, you know, as you say, you think Mike McCarthy's back next year. I think we've both said. This isn't likely a Steve Wilkes scenario in Arizona, where Cliff Kingsbury becomes available.

And all of a sudden, it's, oh, okay, hey, let's go get Cliff. But I will say this. And we're about to chat with Darren Woodson. Real quick, you bring something up there, Bobby. As I had this conversation with someone, I said, what are your thoughts from the outside looking in? You've been in the league for a while. Speaking to your point,

Mike's the coach next year, unless a shinier object becomes available. That's what I'm about to ask you. If let's say season ends, they've gone four and 12, and there are all these built-in excuses for it, but if a Lincoln Riley calls directly or communicates through back channels, however way to get word to the Cowboys front office and says, I'd take the Cowboys job. If you guys open that job up, I'll go take it.

Do you think they would, do you think they'd buy out McCarthy's contract? The thing that I love and the thing that fans loathe about Jerry is, is his loyalty and his belief in people. And I truly believe, because I've had my binoculars on that suite this year, because it's been far more entertaining than watching some of the stuff on the field, I believe he feels for Mike.

I feel like he believes in Mike, and he, like Jason Garrett, wants to see Mike succeed. So I believe because of that, there will be a loyalty there. I think that this was strictly Stephen's decision. Well, and to that point, you talk about he's a loyal guy. He was also loyal to Des, and he didn't necessarily want Des gone when they moved on from Des.

And, you know, they made the decision to move on from Romo and things like that. But ultimately, other advisors maybe went out in those sorts of debates. So if, you know, Lincoln Riley, who talks to Stephen, you know, or intimates to Stephen, I'd like that job. Does Stephen have enough, despite Jerry's maybe inclination to, be loyal to Mike. Does Stephen have enough poll with Jerry to then say, hey, look, this is the better decision for the future of this franchise?

Do you think they would go that way? Or do you think Mike would ultimately stay? And they'd say, sorry, Lincoln, we're locked into our guy. I wouldn't be surprised if like Des, there was a leadership council meeting and the question was raised, should we keep him or move on?

And I think it'll be very, the one thing that we've heard about Jerry and we've seen, is that he's always gauging opinion. And I would not be surprised if at some point towards the end of this season

he gauges the opinions of guys like Sean Lee, DeMarcus Lawrence, Dak Prescott, the Zach Martins of the world. I think he'll go down the list and he'll ask these guys, is this the guy for the job?

And I think he'll also weigh that with what I think all of us would want is an opportunity to succeed under normal circumstances. I mean, if you and I got hired to do our job this year, it would be very hard for me to prove to my bosses that I'm good at this job, given the challenge that I wouldn't have player phone numbers. I wouldn't have access to the locker room. I wouldn't know this team as well. I would not be able to be as successful as I would

under normal circumstances. So that's why I, if I was a betting woman, and I can't bet because I work for the NFL. But if I had to place a bet, I'd go all in on Mike being back next year, regardless of whether Lincoln was available or not. But I think it's intriguing that someone who's been around the league longer than I, that's their takeaway. And I don't think they're that far off on it. And I think he's back as well. I think you're right. And I think that I would, my own outlook on it is that, like you said, this is not a normal year and it's presented. challenges. I think a normal year will present challenges, as we've said, that Mike McCarthy hasn't even thought about yet. And I think that that's going to be a sobering year next year

if he is back. And these are normal circumstances because I think there's another, it's a second year of adjustment. And I think that's tough for, that'll be tough for the team to justify of man, this was two years of growing pains. What is this? Why was it? This should have been easier this time around. But I, I think because it's the Cowboys job and how unique things. Cowboys job is, going into a normal year for the first time with the Cowboys isn't going to be a normal year. And so I think it'll present a lot of interesting questions. I just think at a certain age, and like I said, in speaking to this other coach, at a certain age, don't you want, covering the league is a lot of fun. You can say it was Jason Garrett. Jason

Garrett told you, okay, sorry. Covering the league is a lot of fun. This is a cool job. but these coaches don't see their families a lot. There is a lot of scrutiny. Like, as they said, if that fourth and one trick play had worked, they're the hero. If they don't, we're talking about it the rest of the season and talking about how negligent they were, that their team was in a position to be up on the board.

And you could argue that that changed the whole momentum of the game. And then it was a blowout on Thanksgiving. I just wonder if he's got the stamina. and if he's got the will after the sea. I mean, this is to come back after a year and go through what you went through with the Packers. Imagine what he went through the final years in Green Bay. Take a year off. You want to come back.

You love football. This is the year you come back. And then to your point, next year, we don't know what DAC's going to look like. We don't know if he's even going to be your quarterback. So, okay, let's play devil's advocate. We rolled another quarterback. You got the growing pains of that. are guys going to retire?

Are guys going to come back? Are the guys that were insured in on IR this year? Because it was a lot of your starters. Are they going to be what you need them to be? We are in, we're not in, we're close mode in Dallas. We're in rebuilding mode. Or at the very least renovation. You're renovating the back room at the very,

I don't know if it's full rebuild, but there's a lot renovation. Bobby, and you're putting a pool in the backyard. Sure. I mean, this house was not turnkey when he, it was turnkey when he got it. and then COVID happened and then you realize the inspector

that inspected the house didn't see all the cracks. There were a lot of cracks. He missed him. So he bought the house and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm about to put money into this money pit.

I just wonder if Mike has the stamina for this job. I wouldn't fault him if he saw this as more of an, if he thought that this was going to be a little hill and it ended up being a mountain, which is what Dallas is. is. I mean, it's why it's a billion dollar franchise. It's why people care about it. Jerry creates

this. And I love covering it. We call it the glamor beat for a reason, but it wears on people. And I can only imagine how it wears on the coaching staff. Yeah. And I think that where I don't think that's just coaches. I mean, I think that's why the Cowboys have always put such a high emphasis on, you know, bigger school guys coming out in the draft. They want guys who they feel are mentally prepared to understand the crush of being a cowboy and Sammy Watkins was smart, right? Remember, we heard Sammy Watkins did not come to Dallas. That's why you got Amari Cooper.

Sammy Watkins didn't want to deal with the attention that came with the cow. Have we even talked about Sammy Watkins since he went to Kansas City? No, I don't think so. Not really. No. But I mean, that's that's what you deal with here. And I think you and I have seen instances where Mike McCarthy, I think you could see him in real time realizing this is an issue that I wouldn't have had to have dealt with in

Green Bay or like, oh, that answer usually would have ended this agreement. And here comes another question or here comes. And it's led to some odd moments and led to some. Poor Mike couldn't even get the opening dress shirt in his meeting with the media. Remember that? I mean, people. Yeah, he got crushed for that. I think he finally felt what it was like to be a female sports reporter.

people didn't care what he was saying. They cared what he was wearing. I felt for Mike. I wanted to consult Mike that day. But I thought to myself, the Cowboys didn't give you a heads up on this. That to me, as ridiculous as that sounds, Bobby, that to me was like the first, like, oh, my God, he does not know what he's about to walk into. Yeah.

And to be fair, he may turn that around and he may adjust do well. I actually, there have been times the season where I've been a number of, impressed with the way when your report came out. Whereas I felt like there were times that, you know, Jerry in that interview got a, clearly it touched a nerve. I thought Mike McCarthy handled it pretty well and said, you know, these are, these are things that, you know, this is what, this is a normal occurrence when teams are losing.

You get unhappy. And there have been times this year where I've been like, okay, I'm impressed. He handled that well. He did that well. And then there have been other times where it hasn't. And so, I mean, I want to leave room for the possibility that he will be able to ultimately adjust to this. And he's seen a lot of football.

and he's able to come back stronger and know the things that he needs to change. And this is a guy who's rebranded himself on self-reflection. So hopefully he does some of that this offseason and is better prepared. And to be very clear, I don't wish failure for anyone. I have a short list. I was going to say, I wish failure. I would on some people, not necessarily that I'd say out loud, but there's a few. Mike's not on that list.

I like Mike. I find him entertaining. He needs to keep talking that menu of love, lighten the tone. If I was helping him with the media, I would tell him, you know, throw them, throw them some nuggets, go back to some of those one-liners. I call it the Jerry strategy, diffuse deflect, just get through the season. I want to see him succeed. I would have liked to have seen what he would have done with a healthier team. I don't know if Mike Nolan's the guy for him on defense.

I still feel like they tried to throw too much too soon at these guys. They expected guys to adapt in a year that it was hard to get these guys to understand schematically what they were asked. I mean, none of us even got it when they were talking about it. Remember it was like, we're 4334. It's exotic. Like think about like what you saw like when they were playing New Orleans. So all of us were kind of confused.

So I can only imagine then trying to explain that to some of the players and the fact that the players were abandoning it so publicly, so early, I think they tried to do too much too soon. I think they've wisely scaled it back. I think they've had some of the tough discussions. I just, again, I don't know if we'll see if this coaching staff remains intact next season. But I wholeheartedly believe Mike's back. I want to see Mike succeed. I would ask you playing devil's advocate.

And I hate doing this because I hear Mike is a lovely. guy haven't gotten the chance to really get to know him. But if there was a defensive guy that's out there, who would you want to see come to Dallas? Do you want a Dan Quinn? I see, I don't know. I know a lot of people wouldn't want Dan Quinn here. But I wouldn't be opposed to Dan Quinn being here. I would absolutely be in favor of if Dan Quinn's looking for a rebound year to call a defense and doesn't necessarily need a head coaching job needs to, you know, build this credibility back up.

I'm totally down with Dan Quinn coming in here and being your defensive coordinator. and that being another guy who came from the Sabin, he was on staff with Jason Garrett on Nick Saban staff in Miami. So that's a guy who comes from that same sort of culture heavy and has a guy who has succeeded with a lot of big personalities the way he did in Seattle and calling that defense. And so I'd be in favor of Dan Quinn as an option. I don't know that there's a,

I don't know that there's a Lincoln Riley of defense out there. You know, I think that, goodness, what's, I think one name that's up and coming that may turn out to be that guy is that, what's the name of Rod Marinelli's son-in-law over with the Rams? I'm drawing a boy. Todd Barry, is that, what's his name? What's his name? What's his name?

What's his name? There are a few coaches, it's not the glamorous thing that offensive play calling is and that sort of design. Because he's coming back. And so I don't know that there's anybody that stands out like that. Usually those type of people that stand out stand out in league circles. There are people within the league who know, oh, that's an up-and-coming defense. But it's not necessarily something that gets discussed in the media.

So it is, I would like the idea of Dan Quinn on this staff, though. I mean, the coach I wanted, I was hoping for if there was a buyout with his job or something like that. I had hoped that they would pursue Mike Zimmer. I thought Mike Zimmer would be a really good fit here. And I thought it'd be an easy sell, the Cowboys fans of, oh, that's from years past. Oh, is that a head coach? Yeah, there's some nostalgia. That's a guy I would have liked.

But Minnesota had decided they wanted to keep. him and so. And Darren Woodson's not the only player that loves. Terrence Newman is one of his biggest fans. Terrence Newman had a house here for a long time and when he retired, Mike Zimmer retained him as his staff. I mean, players absolutely love

him. Coaches love Mike Zimmer. That would have been very intriguing, but yeah, to your point, he wasn't available. I know your defensive name. Go hire Matt Eber Fluse. Well, you know how I feel about Maddie Bers. I know. That's your guy.

but he's not going to leave Indianapolis, big fan of Frank Reich, big fan of the GM there, Chris Ballard. I think that they like what they're doing there. I think they still need to figure out the offensive side of the ball, but I think they like what they're doing there. And I wouldn't be surprised if Detroit callers at him. I know you kicked that around on Twitter.

Loved it. That would make some sense. Matt Patricia's out there. man I think for I think yeah I think for the I think for a year where people are talking about maybe some tense interactions with coaches and player I don't know that map I don't know that Matt Patricia now I'm curious I love Matt Patricia let me tell you Matt Patricia he's a he's like a literal rocket scientist he's a smart guy I love the gruffier coaches that's why you know you would think Mike McCarthy be my best buddy I love the gruffie coat Doug Marone love him Bill O'Brien. Ryan, love it. Matt Patricia, love it. Bill Belichick, love him. I'll be interested to see where Matt Patricia ends up. Matt, I mean, it's, if we go by history, it's been tough sledding for Belichick assistance. But you see the problem with our league, Bill, Bobby, we are talking about this coaching

carousel of these older coaches that have been around for a while, and then we've got Chris Richard just chilling out here. Yeah, and I think Chris Rashard is a guy who should, and I think will get consideration for bigger jobs in the offseason. And I think that especially when you see the struggles that have gone on in Dallas people are probably going, oh, maybe that wasn't a Chris Richard Schard problem. Maybe that wasn't a Rod Marinelli problem. As Chris Schard described to us, ability alignment,

that you put them in the best position to succeed with the ability that you have on your personnel. I got to tell you, when we walked away from our conversation and we try as reporters really to get as many sides of the story as possible, right? The narrative

couldn't have been more off on Chris Richard in his final year. And I found myself after that going either he's really good at these TED talks or that many people that I talked to, he just rubbed the wrong way. It was fascinating when I walked away from that conversation with them because I got to tell you, I could have had a three-hour podcast with Chris, not just about football, but about life. Yeah. And I think players in your locker room that are all under the age of 30, I think they gravitated.

towards that. I think that's interesting to them. I could, it's fascinating to me that that didn't work better in Dallas. I could see if it rubbed veterans the wrong way or whatever else or, you know, I mean, that was such a weird year last year where I think everybody kind of felt like so much of the coaching staff was on the way out. That may have made it awkward or may have

caused for, uh, you know, feeling like man, we're playing for lame duck coaches and this guy's getting on my case and he's not even coming back next year. I wonder how much that maybe was just a, an odd dynamic there. But it is, you know, speaking to that, you know, reputation versus reality. I'm curious and I know we'll get to Darren Woodson here after this last question.

I said we're going to talk. I know. I know. And then we did. I just decided to like, I mean, you and I might as well have had beers at this. I know. Talked about it and unpacked in a while. I've got a lot of thoughts and I wasn't going to bring them up in the podcast and yet here they are.

And now that here they are. I'm curious because you've been. around the league more than I have you like you've seen the way things operate in other cities is what I mean. So different. Yeah. I'm curious, you know, I've always, and the whole time I've covered the team was the Jason Garrett era. So I was used to the walk off being a thing. Is that a thing with other head coaches? Do other coaches do that sort of thing? And for those who don't know, it's you have a press conference. Jason would often give a little bit more vanilla answers. And then the walk off, he'd give you a little bit more candid answers with recorders off. And then he talked to you. And, he talked to you. And, and some of the stuff you could talk about afterwards. Some of it was just, you know, for reporter knowledge, is that a common thing? And if it is, do you think when things return to normal that

Mike McCarthy will do something like that? And would that benefit Mike McCarthy to be able to do that? So do you think the ability, do you think the lack of a walk-off has potentially hurt Mike McCarthy in terms of being able to explain his messaging more than potentially anything else has? Kevin Stefansky said something today that was, God, I wish I could remember the verbatim what he said. One of his players had essentially said that the Titans weren't a super team.

Like in other words, a Super Bowl team. And he was asked, how do you feel about that? And to paraphrase, he essentially said he didn't, this isn't what he said, but I'm paraphrasing it. He essentially said he doesn't manage the words of his players. I think where Mike went wrong, and this isn't me just being a bitter reporter that doesn't have access to players. This is, I think if you, if Mike had been a little bit more approachable with the reporters and not put this like a lid on the team, it wouldn't feel like it wouldn't feel so like we're insulating. In other words, because it feels like when you just allow your team to be your team and you allow them to have their own distinct person.

When I think of some of these teams in the league that allow teams that I cover that allow their players to be uniquely who they are, look at Lamar Jackson and John Harville. He just lets him be who he is. Cam Newton, for that matter, has just been uniquely who he is under Bill Belcher. Everyone said that was never going to happen, right? I thought that was interesting this year. Yep.

Sean Payton allows Cam Jordan to be Cam Jordan. Jason Garrett allowed Demarcus Lawrence and Ezekiel Elliott to be. It's interesting because you pointed out as just Donning on me now. I don't know that I ever heard Jason Garrett ever get asked about something a player had said. I think generally, like I don't recall like this player said this in the locker room. This one's kind. It seems now that you say that. I would say whatever does want it.

And they're not talking to about, but I feel like this year these guys are like sort of like on like pins and needles as it relates. And again, it is so hard to judge Mike McCarthy as a head coach because this is such a weird sample size and a weird year. But again, then I'll just compare it to what I'm seeing from other. Baker Mayfield has been answering questions and press conferences using rap lyrics this year. Like, you're, well, I mean, you got to be quirky when, when things aren't going great on the field,

though. But my point is, and again, maybe this is. an unfair comparison. It just feels like this team is so tight here. And I don't know what to make of that. And to your point, though, Mike, when I met Mike ahead of the season, ahead of COVID, he's a cool dude. Like, in fact, when he got hired, I was excited about it because I would see him at Combine and be like, that's a cool dude. You can just go up and talk to him. Like, he'll shoot the breeze with you. I don't know what it was about Dallas or what it was about this season, but it literally became a sort of this us against them mentality.

And I don't know if that helped him. I think he was used to controlling messaging in Green Bay. And I think that I think that he realized he couldn't do that here anymore. But I will tell you, knowing what I know now, just to peel the curtain back for fans and listeners that don't know how this thing works, the most successful in the coaches in the league, media-wise, tend to have the best relationships reporters. If they don't like a story, they text them.

When I report something that a coach doesn't like, I hear about it. But there's a direct communication. And when there's a direct communication, there's a trust. There is, I'm going to tell you this. This is the why. So you're not wildly speculating. And to be clear, because I don't want anybody to, misunderstand what you're saying. This is not, this coach isn't open to me, so I'm going to screw

him. This is not it. This is literally the reporter can only go off of what's available to them. So it's not out of spite, but just sometimes things get lost because you don't have the information. And if the coach isn't willing to share it, you can't correct it. You don't know that. Particularly in this year, when you have not been able to have those relationships with the coaching staff that I've had in the past. And I'm not saying just me. saying any of the reporters. Everyone, yeah. I think if I would have had him do it all over again,

Tom Herman tried to do this in Austin once, by the way, he just went about it the wrong way. I would have had an off-the-record conversation with reporters, said, here's my cell phone. I'm excited about being in this market. This is going to be a weird year, guys. Don't abuse this phone number. But let's talk some things through as the season develops

so that we can all sort of, get on the same page and you can get a sense of who I am and who you are. You know, we talk about the players that in his locker had, it was essentially mugshots of the local media because he liked to remember their names. And guess what? The media, ha, ate it up. It's no different than just your interactions in the office or when you go to the grocery store or you go to Home Depot and you remember so-and-so's name, it resonates. It just feels like all year there's been a wall between the Cowboys coaching staff, players, and the media, and in a market like this, I think it's hard to succeed. I think Joe Judge is seeing that in New York. Joe Judge is experiencing that. I don't think it's unique to just Dallas.

I think it's unique to the situation, the city, the market. And again, this is not the whining reporter thing. If I was advising, Mike, that would have been my recommendation. I talked to somebody recently who has an understanding and has a good knowledge of the inner workings of players and coaches within the Cowboys and had said that they had asked a couple guys recently. Like, you know, what's the deal there with you guys this year? Like it seems like there's a huge disconnect. What's going on? And these players, I guess he had talked to it said that, you know, man, it's honestly that they felt like it was about the camaraderie.

that the COVID stuff had just gotten, become such a built-in block for the guys to develop that, like, familial bond that they had gotten so used to with each other. And that that they feel like, I guess a lot of guys feel like that's been the biggest hurdle for them. It's just, man, we can't, you know,

sustain that brotherhood we normally have. We can't, you know, do our dinner nights together with each other. We can't go out, you know, for drinks on a, you know, a buy week or we can't do this or that. And it's, I think that that's not only a,

issue for, you know, us and communicating messaging and, you know, coach to media and player to media and thing. It seems like that's an issue internally for players to players, position groups to position groups and players to coaches potentially that it builds in like that. I'm not saying that it's wrong, but I'm just saying I feel like this year, I don't know about you, but this year, you know, working at NFL Network, I've got colleagues in Philadelphia, Chicago, L.A., whatever. I have grown closer to my colleagues this year than ever because we're all sort of working

from home. We FaceTime. I think we're looking for somebody that gets what we're doing in this unique space and time more than like our outside world. So on the flip, on the flip, I would say, though, that they're naturally supposed to be that close during a regular year, that they're supposed to be training with. each other through the summer. They're doing veteran-led workouts where it's just the players are leading them.

Coaches aren't even involved. And this year, there are blocks to where you're not even, if you're a corner and you have a buddy who's a defensive end, like you guys can't even be around each other in the facility. Like you're not even, there's rules like, and now you're talking about naturally because it has to after what happened in Denver. You're talking about keeping an entire player on your roster out of the meeting room. Like, nope, you just learn remotely. So I think there is some.

I just, I think families are tight. because your parents force you to be tight. Like in your own household, is it important to you that your daughters, because they're thick as thieves, are close?

Yes. Do you encourage them to fight or do you encourage them to make up, do things together, protect your sister, love your sister. Where does that come from? Yeah,

I mean, I think that that comes from the desire to, you know, see them close and bond as a family. But on that flip side, then let's also say, you know, my daughter's like Addison, okay, you're, you're seven and, you know, Laura, you're four, okay, so, but you got to be with the four year olds over here, Laura, and even though you guys,

I want you to have these bonds, you're going to have to do it remotely and you're going to have to do it like, I mean, I think that there's a little bit, it's driving a little bit of a wedge, I think, like, whereas naturally, and not to poo your analogy, because I think it's a fair one, but, you know, with the colleagues that you have, you guys all work in different cities already. So, you know, it just, it didn't change. the way you guys see each other normally. It just activated maybe, hey, we got more time to interact with each other now, whereas they are used to being all around each other and in the same meeting rooms together.

And now it's saying, you know, hey, we still want you guys to be tight like that, but split up. And not only just split up, but like this is from a team that coming off last year seemed to have some chemistry issues and seem to have some problems of, you know, relationships and things like that. And so I think it was tough to address that and fix it in an era where it's like, oh, and you guys all have to be split up. And you all have, you're getting introduced to new coaches.

You're not even dealing with the same coaches that you have known for the last four, five, six, seven years. I love playing psychologist, even though I don't have a three. I think, I actually think it's more than that. I think when you see this sort of disconnect, it comes from fear. And I don't think some of these players feel invested in. I think there's fear some of them may not be back. So why get tight with these guys, with the coaching staff,

if you're not coming back. And I think that that's where some of the checkout is. I think there's a lot of uncertainty in that building. And if you looked at that 13 and three season when Dak Prescott came in, I still keep going back to that year because it really was such a unique, remarkable year. That team was so close.

They protected each other. looked after each other. And honestly, heading into this season, the team was so close when you heard him talk about DAC. And I do believe, like to your point,

DAC was literally the glue that binds. And I think with his own admission of his struggles, I think just a lot of these guys just weren't mentally strong this year. And I don't think you had a coaching staff like the Rod Marinelli's of the world

who are giving you books and literature and talking to you about things other than football where you feel invested in and then you want to fight for people. I had a mentor that I work with that at the beginning of this quarantine told me, be a fountain, not a drain. And he wasn't talking about my on-camera performance.

It was he's checking it with me mentally. I felt invested in. You want to run through walls for guys like that. I don't know if this coaching staff has done that. I think that's fair. to be good at your job. But I'm saying if you're going to, and this is my, it's a terror,

this is why I'm not a lawyer, because I can't present well, but I feel like there's a psychology component to this where when you feel these players sort of flippantly dismiss the coaching staff, you don't flippantly dismiss people that invest in it. And think about what they're coming off of. So like just running through my head really quickly,

Jason Garrett, who everybody knows the way he invested in his players, John Kittna, who told us when we interviewed it, him that he's close enough to Dack, that he literally has Dack FaceTime his teenage son to tell him to do his football drills. That's how close they are.

Kellyn Moore, who's still on staff, but Kellyn Moore, a guy who was on the roster a few years ago and transitioned into coaching. So he's considered one of them. Mark Colombo on the offensive line, who was one of the guys,

a guy that they basically lobbied to get that job. And then talked about the young guy who'd been close and who'd done it that you relate to. They got that, but even a guy like Rod Marnelli, who's older. He still connects with his guys. And he found a way to connect to them and, you know, reach them.

And you got a guy who, for as much as there's all this. Can't have second chances. When you feel like someone's giving you a second chance, you feel invested in. You want to run through walls for them. Chris Richard, who said, told us, he said, his goal is he said, it's not about the team. He's like, it's about being a tribe existing for one another. And you talk about an entire coaching staff. Gary Brown told us some of the same things.

Gary Brown, who, you know, was like a father figured all the running backs in the room. Going from that to COVID isolation and all new people, even if they've tried, you got to think there's, you know, even if they've tried to reach guys like that, which I don't know if they have or they haven't, but even if they tried, it's a brand new start for everybody. That's, you know, it's kind of like, you don't know me like that. Like, I mean, there's got to be some trust there, some built-in respect, I think. And, you know, I think that that's probably been a big, I would guess that's something that the Cowboys had not.

But then why are we seeing teams fight for the Ron Rivera's of the world and go eight and three in Cleveland with a Kevin's DeFansky in his first year and his coaching staff? And those are just two examples. Right. That rule, when we look at his locker room after a win, doesn't that look at fun? Which, like, I know. Does that look young? I've known several. I know personally three or four guys that played for Matt Rule.

And all three or four of them, when he got hired by the Panthers, they were like, I'd do anything I could to get to Carolina because I love that guy. And so, like, I mean, I know like Matt Rule is that guy. I guess that's the thing is that we just don't know that Mike McCarthy's that guy. Now, to be fair, Mike McCarthy is trying with his, you know, his watermelons and his other things. So maybe he's trying, and it's just it's not reaching them. It feels like I didn't even know who that comedian. was, did you?

Oh, yeah, but I mean, I did. Yeah, but I mean, I know everything. You know that. You're an old soul. I'm sorry. I don't know if these younger guys even knew who that comedian. Right. They just may have thought it was funny that he was smashing watermelons that said Dalvin Cook's name on it or something. But I do know that there are coaches in this league that put a lot of effort into that

pregame speech and bringing in mascots of a particular player or they roll out massive speakers and smoke machines in the event that they, win like it's more than the game plan it's the culture it's the atmosphere it's the it's all the stuff that you need to get guys to buy in and i just haven't heard and i'm not saying it hasn't happened i just haven't heard about that stuff that you know you know what i think other than smashing watermelon you know what i think may be the most damning example to me of the culture to this point has failed is, I don't think it was any secret to anybody that by the time he was traded, Everson Griffin won it out of here. Like Everson Griffin didn't want to be a cowboy anymore.

And that was seven game career or something with the Cowboys. What was your report when they signed Everson Griffin? Why did Everson Griffin come here? Because of Mike McCarthy. Because of Mike McCarthy. That is a dude who chose his free agency destination fully buying into the culture and the staff. And after seven, weeks went never mind. So think about guys who may have had skepticism or hurt feelings about losing their buddy Jason Garrett or who thought, yeah, okay,

I mean, we'll give it a shot. We're talking about a guy who went in here like eyes wide, literally, if you saw the Twitter video, eyes wide, like, yeah, I'm in, I'm buying in, and two months later said, get me the hell out of here. That says something, I think. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast, Superhuman, documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions. my journey from basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye They said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little kill? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed correct.

So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns,

Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way.

Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to be unfair. I'm just saying I think we can only because we can only be told so much. And you and I can only sit here and speculate based on what we've heard,

who we talk to, who we source some of this with, and then try and fill in the blanks as to why this has been such an excretioningly painful season, both to watch, but also statistically for this group. Because you know these players, I know these players

and you know that they are capable of more. Yes. And I think they know that. They know they've done more together before. And I think that it's probably easy for them to internally look and say, we've done better than this together before. We know we can play together. So where's the disconnect?

What's changed? And I think it's easy for them to look at and say, well, this has changed above us. I don't know about our listeners, but this was fairly cathartic. for me. Yeah, it's good. You know, it's been a tough season to cover. Pulling back the curtain again a little bit, Jane and I were talking as we led into this to lead into our Darren Woodson, and we were like, oh, we'll probably lead into this for like five minutes.

And so it's been like 45. So, yeah, this was unexpected. I feel like we needed this. Yeah. I know the fancy this, but I think you and I have just struggled to find the answers as much as probably ownership, the front office, agents, coaches, players, go to, go. down the list. You and I literally grew up in this area. We're objective reporters, but we've developed relationships with these guys. You want to see this team turn the page. But I lied. I thought we were going to talk about pop culture references. And like I said, we just literally, maybe the fan should invoice us. Yeah. We're talking this out loud with them. Yeah. We just did the therapy session with them. Yeah. Yeah. So that's good. And now we can talk to a,

We're going to roll into two good conversations, one with coming up after this first one, we're going to talk to David Robinson to wrap things up about Des Bryant. But we're going to lead things off today with for a fifth time, Pro Football Hall of Fame semifinalist, Darren Woodson. Thunderstruck, adjective, shocked and amazed by the power of carnival fun. It's what happens when you ride Bolt, the world's first sea coaster. When you island hop till you drop. Thunderstruck!

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Their fearless guide through this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles.

They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide through this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Joining us now is Darren Woodson. He is a former safety for the Dallas Cowboys, a five-time pro bowler, a four-time all-pro and three-time Super Bowl champion.

and also for the fifth time, a semi-finalist for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. That's one of the things we're going to talk to about today. And also the host of the new Darren Woodson show, how long have you been doing that now, Darren? It's just been about a month or two. No, no, we've been doing it about seven months now. And we're finally starting to understand what we're talking about.

And the official of the show, but, you know, Bobby and Jane, good seeing you as well. It's been awesome. You know, I partnered with Tyler Clutz, who was a former cowboy, played a couple of years, played all over the league, actually. You know, I always kid him, I said. He probably played for 31 of the 32 teams out there. But, and another friend named Ben Gibbs.

And we started this podcast based on the fact of, you know, we were all transitioning from the NFL and then now into business. And it was a tough transition for all three of us. And that's the reason why we started. Not only be talking sports, but we're talking business at the same time. We're just talking life. So it's been a blast, man. You know, it's funny you bring that up.

One of my favorite sit downs with a player is DeMarcus Ware. We did an event with Vizio. And so it's, you know, tailor-based towards more of a business audience. So we're marrying what he did as an athlete with, obviously, what he did when he transitioned to business. not only is it, I think, a rude awakening for so many players, what life looks like when you don't have the jersey and you no longer have the helmet and you no longer,

especially if you're used to being a Dallas Cowboy. I mean, you and I can talk about that. There is a big drop off there. But for those that are ill-prepared for it, I feel for them. And so I think that there is obviously, I got to imagine a lot of guys come to you because you've been so successful not only in the business world, but in the media world. I mean, you did such a dynamic job with ESPN, but I'm sure Michael Irving would speak to this.

And when you've got a young family, it becomes a bit of a challenge. But are you enjoying this notion of managing your message, something that players didn't necessarily get to do before podcast and being able to put out your own content? I love it. I mean, honestly, I love where I am right now in life because there's just, you know,

there's just so many possibilities. out there right now. And there's no control factors, specifically when I'm doing a podcast, there are no control factors. I spent 14 years at ESPN, and Jane, you well know that you only have a few minutes and you got to get your message out. And if there's an interview process, you really don't get to the core of the interview. You really don't get to know the person. You're interviewing Peyton Manning, and that that is a two and a half, three-minute interview at tops. And he's not giving you a whole lot. He's giving you the politically correct answer. is he a little bit here and there,

but you don't really get to know Peyton Manning. And it was, you know, us doing a podcast and doing an interview with Troy Akeman, who I've known forever, and we go through this podcast interview, and we're peeling back the onion. And he's saying, he's talking about things that he's never talked about,

about his life and his journey and the obstacles and thought about quitting football. And I never knew that about it. And I know Troy for 27 years. They didn't know those things about it. So that's, those are the safe. guards that are all. And that's the reason why I love doing the podcast. Now you know why I'm addicted to what I do for a living there. And it's because you, I think all of us are listeners

that are listening to this, the fans that watch these sports shows were led by curiosity. And I think we are naturally drawn to people that have done it. For you, it was, you did it with the Dallas Cowboys. You're doing it as a businessman. You're doing as a podcast. But I am fascinated when I watch these guys, Taylor the Juan, Cam Jordan, Mark Ingram that are doing this podcast thing now. Who would you have done a podcast with when you played? If you could do Michael Irvin. Michael Irvin. There's two guys. Michael Irvin, Dionne Sanders. Hands down. That'd be a hell of it. That'd be a hell of a podcast. The only thing I could have, here is my role in the podcast, make sure they show up.

That's my role. Because once I get them in the building and put the mic in front of them, it's just go. And those two guys bring personality. They're intuitive. They understand what it takes to be successful. And not only that, but they're going to do their research. Those two are going to do their research. I know for a fact they're going to do their research.

And those are the guys that I would say, I definitely would have teamed up with. And if podcasts were around back then, we would have definitely did one. You can still do it. I think our fans would listen to that one. I know that Dion's doing stuff with Barstool. Michael's got his own pod. Now, I think you guys should, I think you guys should talk about this.

Yeah, well, we probably do some things together. But for me, it's, you know, I got two guys that I love dearly. We're all family men. We're all on the same page. and I don't have to worry. They weren't being at me showing up and being at all the time. So it's a little different dynamic. You know, we mentioned at the start of this

that you are a semi-finalist for the Pro Football Hall of Fame again this year. And one of my favorite stories I've ever heard somebody tell is Dave Campo tells the story about going to Arizona State to actually watch Philippi Sparks at his pro day. And that while he was there, he said he said, sees this linebacker who's running like a 4 340 and he's like who the hell's that guy okay and he said he came back and he said he told jimmy's like i i don't know if he'd play linebacker or safety or corner or what but this dude runs 4-3 and he's big and like we need to just get him here and we'll figure it out and he says the next year after your rookie year that jimmy comes up to him and goes uh hey dave we're gonna we're

we're gonna play darren darren's gonna start at safety next year and dave is like i don't know i mean he's still young and there's some rawness there. And then he said, Jimmy goes, Dave, I said, we're going to start Darren at safety. He goes, okay, Jimmy, he's going to be the best damn safety in the league pretty quick. But with that sort of flexibility of, man, is he a corner, a linebacker, safety, and all the different things you could do on the football field and all the different things you were asked to do in your career, whether we play in the nickel or coming

up and playing in the box or playing deep, do you think that that hurt your case at all in terms of because you didn't have the numbers, you weren't able to play at one spot and just collect numbers as a safety or as a corner or anything else. Do you think that that people have, you were almost too good at too many things that you weren't able to just do one and show people, hey, look, I'm elite in this one area and I should be in. That's been my argument with Mike Zimmer forever. And I blame Mike Zimmer for the fact that I'm not in the whole thing.

And I'm joking by that. But what I would say is, is that when I came into the league, I spent time in four years with Lovey Smith in college at Arizona State. And Lovey Smith taught me hands down how to cover in the slot. So I played linebacker, but at the same time, I was covering slot receivers, wide receivers, tight ends, blitzing off the edges. I did a little bit of everything back then. So when I came into the NFL, yeah, they thought I was a tweener.

They didn't know if I was going to be a linebacker or safety or whatnot. But when I came in the first year, they saw that I could cover. And I didn't play the safety spot my first year. I played the nickel. I was covering a slot receiver. I was covering the Tony Gonzalez as a tied-in. I was covering guys like that that were, you know, dynamic tied-ins because of the ability that I had.

So when I came in, and when Mike Zimmer came as a defense coordinator, he said, the first thing he said was, look, I'd love to play you at safety, but we can do so much, and the defense can be so much more flexible if I can disguise you and bring you down to walk you down and say,

we don't have to bring a nickel back in. We'll just walk you down and cover the slot receiver. Or if there's a dynamic tied in, we don't have to bring someone else in. We just walk you down and play this. And I accept those challenges. I love the fact, but I think one of my biggest problems is that I love the fact that I had to match up with Jerry Rice in the slot. I mean, I took on that challenge, not as a safety, but as a nickel guy that could cover him in the slot. So did it hurt me in the long end because I didn't play the middle of the field and go get those interceptions?

probably so, but the one thing I did have is I have three Super Bowl rings. And, you know, I wouldn't trade that for a billion, you know, jackets. It's, it's, you know, what I earned, and I've always felt like, you know, my role with this team was to do whatever it took to win football games. If that called for me to play the slot receiver or a tight-in or whatnot in man to man in that situation, so be it. You know, I've got to add one of the more fascinating things I can remember in my sports career was Shireen Williams showed me the binder that she used to, I don't think a lot of people realize that it's the reporters that essentially it's a school project.

Tell us everything you know about this particular player and here's why they should go in the Hall of Fame. My thoughts on that are as a player, do you guys ever talk internally that maybe the writers shouldn't be making that? In other words, it should be more of the players that are doing that. that's a great question I'm going to upset some people with that one that is a great question

look I have a lot of respect for the writers and a lot of those writers like Shereen and Rick Gosselin have been around a long time and been following a game and not only just following the game but it's been beat writers and have been in those locker rooms for a long time and I respect that

I think there is something to say about you know, the players or the GMs or the coaches who had to game plan you and play against you having some kind of say in who probably should be in? Absolutely. I definitely do because I know that, you know, when you play against certain guys, like a Steve Smith who had to deal with in a slot, I mean, you told me he's a monster. Love that guy. He was the first ballot Hall of Famer as good as he was because I had to think about him every single day.

but the writers probably won't think that way. They don't know how he probably won't see how he really impacted the entire week, not just in the slot, but as a kick returner, a punt returner, he brought so much that you had to game plan this guy and think about him in so many ways. So I don't know if the writers think about that part of the value. I know the coaches and the players and the GMs absolutely know those sides and those little small nuggets that are in there.

And look, to be clear, like I said, like I don't, I don't think anyone listening to this would interpret that. And I hope not. And so I want to clarify, it's not a knock on charade. I mean, when I say it was a binder, that's someone that I want in my corner. I mean, the way she fought for Charles Haley to make sure that he got on there. But I look at a guy like Drew Pearson and having worked with him doing a TV show and then becoming friends of him, seeing how much that hurt him. And those things matter to a lot of these. legacy players, you've got to think that teammates of Drew's, probably true, people that played

against Drew, solemn play, coaches, GMs, he would have been in here already. I don't know what the holdup is with Drew. Have you, if you guys ever kind of talked about that emotion? Absolutely. I've told Drew, listen, the reason why I never liked the Cowboys when I was a kid, was because of Drew Pearson. I hated Drew Pearson. I was the biggest Steelers fan and the guy that would make the big plays at the end of the game was going to be stallback to Pearson and I used to sit there and go,

goodness, can't we cover that dude? But he was that, he was so big back then. When I was a kid, guys in the Pop Warner Leagues used to want to wear their hair like Drew Pearson because of how much of an impact

he made to this game. So, yeah, I just, you know, there's a lot of pain. And then when you're a competitor, when you're someone that played this game at a high level. And I know people always say, well, my identity wasn't, you know, I'm one of those that says my identity wasn't wrapped in football, but it's something that I did. And I took it serious. And I showed up every day. And there was a reason why I was a captain for 11 years of

that defense is because I took the game seriously. It meant something to me. So once you get past these points and you've won Super Bowls and you've been to playoff games and you've done so much, you still want to be recognized for your efforts. And that's one of those efforts that I want to be recognized for. I want to be recognized as one of the best that ever did it because I laid it on the line. Who presents for you, Darren? Mike Zimmer presents for me. The guy that I'm blaming right now. Why does he present for you? Because it was beyond football. It was way beyond football. You know, I've seen and have cried what Zim had been happy and open champagne bottles. after Super Bowl wins.

I've sat with him and cried on the bench. He's been there every step of the way in my career. Wasn't there my first year, but, you know, it just, our relationship transcends football. It really does. I know his kids, every last one of them. He knows every last one of my kids,

and we're family. So Zimmer is the guy that's going to bring me in. I love that. Well, and speaking of, you know, recognition before I ask one final question for here, because I know you got to run. We appreciate you giving us some time. I do know that I heard Brian brought us actually on the radio the other day, former Cowboy Scout Packers, had a lot of great guys on his teams over the years,

Brett Farr, Reggie White, things like. I heard him on the radio two days ago say the best football player he ever had on his team was Darren Woodson, more than any of the other guys, that he said Darren Woodson could impact the game in more ways than anybody else. he ever had on his team. That was the best pure just football player he had ever had. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hart Radio

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream,

this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross

double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast.

I'm Sam Jek. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 is big to me not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so...

Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist,

Keer Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch life becomes about wins and losses Steve Burns Dustin Ross because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on

earth or are you a good person because you're afraid because that's two different intentions bro absolutely and that that's two different levels of trust I want you to just really be a good person join me Keer games is we have real conversations about healing growth fathers pressure and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the hard way and listen now. And so there are plenty of people who recognize it

from that personnel and game planning standpoint for sure. But in terms of that, getting recognized and getting the respect they deserve, that's a line we've heard a little bit from Dak Prescott talking about what he eventually wants to be paid. So a final question for you here. What would you be doing if you were in the front office? office for the Cowboys, would you be making the argument of, look,

if we're in a position to get one of these top quarterbacks, let's just get one of them, let Dak walk, or would you just say, no, just pay Dak, that's a special football player. You know what you have. You already know what you have in Dak Prescott. You know, he's a tremendous leader. He's showing you on the film, on film every single day. And the film doesn't lie. Every single day who he is out on practice field, game day, he's grown as a

football player. His teammates absolutely admire him. Guys like myself who've been in the league that played in this game and I sit there and watch him. And one of the luxuries I do have, and Jane, you know I see you every day, but I office there at the Star and Frisco. And I look out that window overlooking the practice field in the summertime when there's no one out there. And he's not throwing to Amari Cooper or, you know, C.D. Lamb, he's throwing to these, I'm talking special team guys. He's thrown to the sixth, seventh receiver on the hottest days

in the afternoon. And this is the guy who can care less about the cameras being on him. He just wants to get better. And I'm watching him do this. And the reason why I'm so passionate about Dak Prescott because it reminds me of a guy who taught me about work ethic.

And that's Michael Irvin. That's number 88. His work ethic was every single day. He was available every single day. Not only for self but for others. And that's how you start greatness. That's when you start to build championship teams when you have players like that and DAC is that guy.

Bobby lied to you because I've got one more for you. What is it about the safety position in Dallas that they can't seem to prioritize it the way they did with you? They're going to go draft the guy. How about that early? You ever walk on over and talk to Jerry until you tell him that that's a glaring deficiency every single year? I've said it to Stephen many a time.

But we just go draft a guy. Look, there was a time when Roy Williams came in, and I got drafted in the second round early on. But, you know, when Roy came in, they drafted him, I think, at number eight in the draft. And for his first five years, there was no one better than Roy Williams. I mean, he was lights out at the position, but they drafted him early.

And if you want an impact player, like Earl Thomas was a guy. that got drafted early in the draft. What did you see with him? Long-lasting career had an unbelievable grip. But if you really want to change that position, you can't go out and get special teamers and then make them safety.

You can't draft a guy in a sixth, seventh round and hope and pray that he becomes a safety. If you really want a guy and you want a game changer, go ahead and draft him. You see him in college. You see the work that he's doing. You know he's a playmaker. Go ahead and get him if you want to make that change.

Can cowboy fans hear this and say preach Brother Woodson. Hey, man, for the bane. Listen, I told you 10 minutes. I'm such a liar. I kept you around so much longer. There are so many other questions

and stories I want from you, so hopefully you'll come back and do the show with us. Hey, just call me, girl. You got my number? Come on. Give me a shout. I'm here.

You the best. Thank you so much. All right. Take care. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic, not enough people know about and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinwiddie host of the new podcast,

Navigating Adoption, presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts. Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families and the Ad Council. What grows in the forest?

sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. If I could be you and you could be me for just one hour. If you could find a way to get inside. Each other's mind. Walk a mile in my shoes.

Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. We've all felt left out. And for some, that feeling lasts more than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it belonging begins with us.org. Brought to you by the ad council. Joining us now is wide receivers trainer David Robinson.

He is the personal receivers coach for several NFL players. but specifically the one of most interest probably to Cowboys fans is Des Bryant. You can follow them on Twitter at D. Robb always open and always with a Z because they, the Twitter police came and got your original account, didn't they, D. Rob? Man, they got me. They got me. I was close to 10,000 followers too, man. Day.

I know. They went and got you and they did Clay Mac the same way. They just, they're playing the same way. They had to start all over. They're doing everybody dirty over the music and everything like that. I guess first question for you here. We've already talked a little bit about this Ravens game coming up. But I'm curious, when you look at how Des has performed so far,

I mean, he's got a couple catches. He played a lot. The last couple games has gotten a lot of action. Where do you think he's at right now? Do you think he's somebody that is going to be able to maintain his spot in that rotation? Is he in good shape right now? Is he in good spirits? What do you think about his level of play right now?

Well, I think he's doing a lot better than expected. Just watching footage from him of practice, from the, you know, footage that he's been sending me. He's been dominating at practice, and it's no surprise to me that's why they moved him up so early and got him activated because he's been dominating the number one defense, the corners pretty much daily in practice. So I think once Lamar just gets more comfortable with him in the passing game and start, you know, trusting them and throwing a ball more his way, think he'll be a lot more effective because he's been running great routes. He's been open. I've been checking the film out. He's just not getting really much targets right now.

I think he's in a lot better shape than what expected. And I think game by game, you can tell that he's getting more in game shape as well. You know, I think of so many people that I know probably said this to you, D. Robb. And to me, Des is never going to play another game in the NFL. And if you spend a little time around Des Bryant, you know that Kant is not in his vocabulary, won't is not in his vocabulary. Consistency was a bit of his issue.

When did you start to see him turn that corner? Well, it was after he got cleared from his Achilles, like the second go around. Like when he first, when he first got released, I mean, first got released, from his Achilles. He really wasn't, you know, working out as much, but as he's got better on it, as it started to feel a lot better, that's when I really started to see the turn up on them. And really, in my opinion, what really did it was the first workout in Baltimore.

When he had the first workout in Baltimore, and they told him that he needed to get in a lot more better shape to get on a meal plan, get on a diet, that's when he got that text. Like, man, when we get back to Dallas, when he started doing more conditioning, more running and things of that nature. And it was music to my ears because, I've been saying the same exact thing, and I'm glad it took a team, you know, to just let them know that you're not close, you're not far from where you need to be. You just need to get in a little bit more, better shape. Do you ever think about, because I know I have, um, does sort of, does and I've always gotten

each other, we're kind of the same person. We like when people tell us we can't do something, but more importantly, we tend to do better with bosses that are no BS. John Harbaal has always struck me as one of those guys. One of my favorite coaches in the league loves on you hard, but expects a lot. Do you ever think about what his career might have looked like if he had ended up with Baltimore and not Dallas? Oh, definitely. I think the first go around when the Cowboys first released him, had he been, you know, went on ahead and been in the right mindset space and signed with Baltimore back then,

should I think he probably would have made another pro ball or two with John Harbar because he's very demanding, holds his players to a high standard. And not only that, he's a player's coach, you know. He's not going to, you know, be your friend a lot and things of that nature. But he's going to push me and ride you hard, and that's what Des need it. So I definitely think if he would have been in the right mind space when he first got released, he probably would have been to another pro ball or so. But it's not over.

You know, he's looking good now. Harbar came to him after practice one day, after Des, made a crazy catch and was like, man, you think you can play this week, you know, because the owners were asking them how good it was looking. And so I just know that Harbaugh really believes in him and wants him to, you know, get that receiver room going because they need some help. When we saw that video go viral of the receivers coach making a run-and-back, catch it that one way.

My instinct was that Harbaugh had told his coaches, wait for that moment. In other words, I also got the sense that when they brought him, to Baltimore. I think they had a good handle on Des that you need to dangle the carrot a little bit. You need to hold them accountable. I just wonder if they were waiting for that,

that was planned. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, because all the other receivers were looking like, man, that was a great catch. Yeah. It is fine. But he handled it so well. I thought he was a locker room cancer.

I thought he was going to go up at practice. I mean, that was the narrative about Des. I think the way he handled it. Like, literally, like, I thought he did exactly what I think you and I know. And Bobby, he's gotten a known Des too. He works great with the young guys. He wants to be in there with the young guys. He feeds off of helping others and the energy that comes with football.

And I think that he saw that as an opportunity to show them how you respond in those situations. So I loved it for Des personally. Yeah, I did too. I did too. You know, it's funny, Jane mentioned in there that he, you know, he likes to help young guys. He likes to, you know, kind of be big brother, be that mentor. It's funny. I've been around when you've trained guys for, you know, three, four years now. And, you know, it was around before Des had started working with you.

I've been around since Des started working with you and, you know, seeing you work with a lot of big name people and be out here at these training sessions with guys like Patten Holmes and and things like that. It's wild to me when you see the difference when Des is out there training is like other players are like what? Like they're almost starstruck by Des. Like even other NFL players. It's like, oh my gosh, that's Des Bryant.

Like I remember we're out at Baylor Scott and White and you had these guys training for the draft who were about to be in the league. We're about to have these. And they were stopping in the wait room to like take pictures of him down on the field because it's like, oh my gosh, that's Des Bryant. Have you ever? There are fans outside waiting to, like they heard that we were there. interviewing him and they were waiting outside in the cold.

Remember? Yeah, going like throwing up the X through the window. Throwing up the X is a guy who played in the league in two years. Man, I know. It's wild to me that it's not just the fan base. And you're talking about how the owners checking up with Harba like, hey, how's Dez looking? Like, I don't think that's the typical thing for somebody who's signed to the practice squad in the middle of the season. What is it? I mean, have you ever seen that?

You've been around a ton of NFL players. Have you ever seen somebody with that energy that's almost like a superstar among other NFL players the way Des Bryant is? The only person that I've seen in that light would probably be A.B. Antonio Brown. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Everywhere he goes, people want to snap photos with him, you know, things have done that you're seeing working out. Everybody stops what they're doing and just migrates towards the football field. That's the only person that I've seen do that. We'll be at a session and it'll just be maybe three or four people on the field

and some kids may spot them to see who it is and then we'll look up and it's like 20, 30 keys on the side of the gate, just watching this work out, you know, so yeah, that's the only other person that I've seen was A-B. All right, so be honest, and I know that Des gives you the latitude to do this. Where was he at when he came to you? Because I had heard reports about where he had fallen off. Yeah, yeah.

Where was he when you released him back into the wild and he was playing with the Ravens? Well, when the first guy with me, of course, he was a bit overweight. You know, I think he was close to like 230-some pounds. And I constantly talked to him about his weight. And once he started to buy in and showed me a chef that he was using, showed me his meals, was taking pictures of it, and things of that nature, you can start to see the difference of his first 10 to 15 yards coming off with the football. He looked a lot lighter on his feet, a lot quicker in and out of his brakes.

and that's where I felt comfortable. I felt a lot more comfortable sending them out going to a workout for any team. Opposed that I did last year. Last year when the Saints, or a few years ago when the Saints brought him in, I knew he wasn't ready for that workout. He smashed that workout straight on adrilling, you know.

So I was just happy once he worked out that I was sure that once he got in the training camp and got to practice, there was not going to be any injuries or anything of that nature real quick. So that was my main thing like, okay, I know he's going to get signed, but hopefully he doesn't, you know, hurt himself in a week or so. So I knew this time we just go around, he was ready to go for a season. And footwork, I know that was one of the knocks on him.

Yeah, yeah, he spent a lot of time. Where did you see him develop there? Well, I saw him develop a lot with his arm mechanics at the top of his routes. His arms were a lot tighter to his body. His footwork was a lot tighter to his body and stayed within his frame when he was coming out of his breaks. Usually when we first got together, he was a little wide and slothed. with his arm mechanics and his footwork. So just spent a lot of times on doing short area quickness cone drills,

helped him a lot with that and his body controlling it at his size in tight spaces. So when I was, when I released them for a training camp or whatever team he was getting ready to work out for, I knew that they were going to be impressed with his intermediate route running, how well he was dropping his weight a lot better. And you know, he looked like the best Brian of old. He told me that the owner from the Ravens told him that he looked like the dead's brown for 2015, 2016. So that was real good.

He heard that in practice. So, you know. Was that the year he came in with like, what, 2% body fat? Yeah, that was the year he came in. Yeah, he was dead. He didn't look at that like that. But, you know, I do think back to our sit down interview when he got released. You know, he said that he wanted, he's got sort of that chip on his shoulder with the

petty gene. I've got it strong. Bobby knows that. He had talked about obviously wanting to play. in the NFC East and do it against the Cowboys. How fascinating that it ended this way, that he finds himself on this Ravens team. Can you imagine if he was in the NFC East right now?

Man. This Ravens team, especially with this depleted secondary of the Cowboys. Yeah, I think if he would have ended up in the NFC East, just from their quarterback situation, And I don't think he would have, you know, thrived as much as he is now in Baltimore. I think he would have been a little bit more frustrated and probably would have, you know, you know, been like wishing I would have went somewhere else had he been somewhere in the NSEs. Because you look at the Redskins, they have Alex Smith now, but they didn't start with them.

They started with Dwayne Haskins. Des would have been, and the Redskins had a chance to sign them last year. They called me on them. It was interested in bringing Des in. but I didn't think he was interested in that calling time just because of the quarterback situation. Philadelphia Eagles, you look at that situation with Carson Wentz.

I don't think it would have been a good fit for him there either. So I think everything happened in guys playing and it worked out how it was supposed to be, you know, because Lamar Jackson and the way that they run their offense, he's going to see a lot of one-on-one matchups. Bobby and I just want to make sure that this performance... I know. I need six-touches.

touchdowns and 400 yards. No, they're going to target them quite a bit. I guarantee they're going to target them at least three, four times. You know, they have to. They have to. And see, that's one of the things I wanted to ask you here is that this is not a, you know, if I don't think that this is a critique on a player when the opposite way happens to them. But generally when you get guys who come in to play against their former team or there's like a big motivating factor of like,

man, I'm coming back to go up against this guy or this team that threw me off. There's usually one of two things happens. One, either they have a really poor performance. And it's not because, you know, anything else other than they just start pressing. And there's almost like there's too much motivation almost there and you kind of lose sight of the basics and everything else.

And then there's the other side, which is just you really do tap into another level and go out there and play all world. We usually see one of the two. It's not usually just some moderate performance from somebody who's coming in with a chip on their shoulder to play their former team. So what are you expecting from Des?

Are you expecting the, is he going to be pressing a little bit? Does he need to guard against pressing a little bit and maybe getting a little too amped up? Or do you think he's going to tap into just the right gear here? I think he's going to tap into the right gear. He seems very focused. Every time I talk to him, he's in his playbook, you know, so I can just tell that, you know, he's down. He has stretched people coming to his house at night, stretching him at night pretty much every day.

So I don't think he's really worried about it. I asked him about the Cowboys game, and he said he's not really worried about it a few weeks ago. He was like, man, I'm just happy to be out here at practice, you know, just getting my mojo back, getting my groove back. He was like, that Cowboys game is going to take care of himself. They know what I can do. So I know deep down inside he wants to have a great performance,

but I don't think he's pressing on it too much. Come on, yes, he is. He's thinking. He's thinking about it. I really don't. I really don't. I mean, he doesn't, when I'm talking to him, I mean, he probably is like, but he's not voicing it to me, though. He's thinking, he's thinking about it more than he's saying.

He's giving yes to all of us. If any of us bring us, he wants to block the energy, throw up the eggs. Exactly. That's what he's doing. He's trying to keep it calm, cool, and collected. I already know it. Boy, he, he's not sitting in a text that week. He learned, he learned well from Jason Garrett. That's a Jason Garrett answer.

That game's going to take care of itself. You know, we're not too concerned. That's, man, that's the influence of Jason Garrett there for, for Des Bryant. You can't forget about the clap. No, no. Now when you look at the here, when we look at Des Brian what he has left, because there was a lot of debate that Des didn't have anything left in the tank period and that he wasn't going to get back out there.

Now he's gotten back out there. So now that we know he's gotten back out there and he's gotten over that hurdle, last question for here, what do you think is left? How much longer do you think Des can hang around the league? I think he has at least another three to four years in him, at least. Yeah. just with him being around those young receivers, they're not going to ask too much of them.

You know, of course, they're going to ask, you know, for him to connect on the red zone, the intermediate plays, the tough ball. But I don't think he's going to get a lot of volume like he was, the latter part of his career where that's targeting him like 10 times, 11 times a game of that nature. So I think he's going to be able to preserve,

protect his body a lot better and a lot more in Baltimore. Well, you can keep up with David Robinson and all of his, you know, trendy little slick cut videos of draft prospects and working guys out. Seriously, David is one of the best follows if you're wanting to learn more about the wide receiver position. If you've got kids in the Dallas area who are playing wide receiver, David is somebody that you should reach out to to help your child hone their craft a little bit. And you can follow them on Twitter at D. Rob, always open and that always with a Z. D. Rob, we appreciate you, man.

I appreciate you, man. Before I get out of here, I want to tell you a little quick nugget, man, a little quick story that Dads told me about this week. What's the, what's the D? Marcus Peters from Baltimore Ravens. He came up to Des, at practice the other day and told him he was like, man, I've been telling the whole coaching staff and the front office that we should have been signed you. I mean, because he's made the receiver room that much more better. The guys haven't been walking around talking as much smack as they usually have.

before Dez got there. So he can just tell that the receiver room is starting to get that edge and that swagger about themselves. They're just ready to unleash and get more targets. Keep that same energy. As Dez's new hoodie says,

keep that same energy. I am curious, since you are now basically an icon for the comeback story, how many guys have called you and said, yo, man, can you give me back in the league? Hey, it's been, it's quite, it's been about five,

Five to six guys. Yeah, really. One of them has been Germain Gretchen. Oh, there you go. He's reached out to me. Tight end. You know, they've played Oklahoma.

So, yeah, it's been quite a few, man. It's funny. You know, they, you know, they think I can resurrect their careers. And sure, it's all credit to today's, man, and just, you know, just staying

consistent with it. Because like Jane said, you know, he'll be hit and miss and not show up sometimes of that nature. But I'm just proud of, man. and I just kept in stuck with it. Well, I credit a lot of that to you, too, though, D. Rob. It's more, it's the body, it's the conditioning, but it's also the mind.

And I think he's found in you someone that he can trust, someone that he could talk to, someone that built him up and believed in them. And I look forward to the next comeback story that you put together. And we'll have you back on the show. All right, cool. I appreciate it. This podcast today really felt like a reality show. Like, you say you're not going to show everything,

and then the cameras start rolling in this case, Zoom starts rolling and it's just all, it's just, you know, we just vomited everywhere. You know, we were all over the place. But it was nice to check in with Darren Woodson. As he said, I see him at the star every time I'm up there. He could still look like he plays. I don't think he has a bad day either. The guy never is not smiling.

He is a slimmed down Joe Looney. He's like the happiest guy ever. I mean, and he's like, I think he's 52 now or he's turning 52 here this month. Michael Irvin and Troy Aitman If I do assemble a team right now Those three guys look like they could still play And I wouldn't put it past Dion either Oh yeah

I mean Dion like Tio it's another one Yeah you know they've had a lot of guys come in here Who you know come through the Cowboys Who have stayed in incredible shape Into their like 40s and 50s But yeah Darren if you watch him Like you're like man that dude looks like he could still go

I remember he ran in a business suit as a bit ran a 40-yard dash at the age of like 42 for an ESPN segment and they were just going to see how he ran in his like shoes and I think he ran like a 4-940 in like business clothes and being in his 40s and and that's a guy who had to retire due to like a career-ending injury and so I mean that's a guy who's been away from the game for a long long time and still looks like he could go out there and play still sounds like he wants to play

he just hate guys like him you hate him and you love them Guys like him, Michael Irvin, DeMarcus, we're talking about a guy that looks like he could still play. I mean, have you seen his training videos, they just excel at everything they do, whether it be business, whether it be media, whether it be playing football. I did roll my eyes a little bit when Darren talked about, like, you know, and these struggles of going from an athlete to a business, it's like, Darren, stop. Yeah, you've killed it all the way from, like, high school on. Stop that. Your standards are so high. Just stop.

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