The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 'Boys and Girl - Former Cowboys WR Jesse Holley on McCarthy's Future, Areas for 2021 Improvement, 2020 Blame

Episode Date: December 11, 2020

On today’s episode of the 'Boys and Girl Podcast, Jane and Bobby chat with former Cowboys wide receiver Jesse Holley about Mike McCarthy’s future in Dallas, where the Cowboys need to improve in 2021, and who is to blame for the mess that is the 2020 season. Follow Jane and Bobby on Twitter and subscribe to get all the latest inside information from two of the most connected people in the Cowboys’ community. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Touchdown, Jackson right up the middle. 37-yard run on fourth and two. Too many times we see it over and over that Dallas, they just give up gaps. They don't get off block. How many times have we seen that, too? They're just nobody there. I would say our finish was not good enough, clearly. Definitely in spots during a game.

Miles Boykin for the Baltimore touchdown. and he could not have been more wide open. I think there's a lot of guys who have to take a hard look at themselves and ask what their efforts like. We're disappointed, make no bones about it, and that's all part of the focus moving forward as we prepare for Cincinnati. Your effort has to be there. It's non-negotiable.

On the defensive side of the ball, especially the running game, we're not executing right now. We're not good at stopping the run. I mean, you can't not be frustrated. I think if you aren't frustrated, then you don't give them a... So, I mean, I know everyone in this locker room in this building is frustrated. Easy money.

That's what that game was on the road against the Ravens for the Cowboys, sitting at 3 and 9. There's four games left. That's the silver lining, guys. But as we talk about easy money, it's easy talking with our next guest. We told you for the Cowboys community, we hope that this is a place where we can talk through what's going on. this season and we have certainly done that with Jesse Hawley here today. Bobby. Yeah, excited to have him on. He is the, of course, as you've mentioned later on, he's the former roommate of Des Bryant. I know there were a lot of heartbroken people. We didn't get to see Des Bryant. That was the one thing

I was looking forward to this year in the COVID year. I was like, we're going to get Des Bryant, but that didn't happen. So we got the next best thing. We got Jesse Holly to do a therapy session with us and talk through all the ills of the Dallas Cowboys and whether or not the big question I think everybody's asking right now is Mike McCarthy the man for this job. Joining us now is former Dallas Cowboys receiver Jesse Holly. You can follow him on Twitter at Mr. Fourth and Long and the fourth is with an actual number four. Jesse also contributes to the large circus of Dallas Cowboys.com podcasts that are up to like 20 now for the week. But Jesse's in involved there and you can check him out there.

And he's also going to talk to us today, not only about where the Cowboys are at, but also a great charity that he founded and that helps provide a good Christmas for needy kids this time of year. Jesse, how you doing? I'm well, man. Oh, man, 2020's almost over. Jesus Christ, I'm good. I really am.

I've just denied me lock on wood. But I've avoided all of the things that could be happening in what the world that we live in today. I'm still employed. I'm healthy. I'm on top of this side of the dirt. Life, you guys know me, man. I'm always positive, happy, go lucky, dude.

So I like to spread that. And, you know, I wanted to exude off of me. So I'm great. Now, see, I do, we do know you. And so one of the things you talked about with us last time, which was back last October, November, I think. and you had mentioned there, you talked about how you were an admitted germaphobe. And so I'm curious, I haven't got a chance to ask you. How have you dealt with coronavirus era?

No, this is right up my alley. Like, this is, this is like, Jane, you and I worked at the same station before, not at the same time, but the same station. And I used to get hell from guys because I was spraying off mics and wiping surfaces down long before COVID got here. I was the guy who was like, you know, hey, I'm not. I was fist bumping, like, you know, I'll be at the stadium whenever. I'm like, hey, fist bump, fist bump.

I'm not shaking hands. Don't know where your hand's been. And they used to give me hell about that. And now everybody's like, oh, wash your hands, no shaking hands, slice all this. And I'm like, oh, I've been ahead of the game years before y'all jumped on the bandwagon. I knew, I'm not saying I knew COVID was coming, but I knew I knew to make sure in the business that we work in, we're in the people business. So we're around people all day long.

and I know how that stuff jumps from person to person. So I've been well ahead of the game. This is right up my alley. I just can't find the stuff that I normally use because everybody's hoarding it from, you know, from the store. Lysaw, Lysol, wipes, hand sanitizer. So listen, I've been ahead of the game for a long, long time. I love that you no longer feel like an outlier in that space.

And to your point, look at us both thriving after getting, getting booted from the fan. I want to, listen, I saw how J.J. Barreya, you know, he got fired and he got two million dollars. I know. I'm like, damn, Gavin Spittle, hook me up. You just gave me a, you know, part and get for something. You just fired me, man. You just let me, you know, we're doing, we're doing fantastic. Thank those guys for all the opportunity that it gave me there. But yeah, we're, we're doing, we're doing, I'm doing, I'm doing just fine. You know, you are doing just fine because as Bobby said, you contribute to so many shows, because I

think you have such a unique perspective, the fact that you really grinded to earn a spot on that Cowboys roster, it meant something to you. You were also there for coaching change. From a bird's eye view, and I know you still talk to guys in the organization, what do you make of this season and the coaching staff? It's difficult. It's difficult. And it's like the changing of relationships. I always tell like, you know, if you're entering a new relationship, don't make the dude or the chick, I shouldn't say chick, don't make the dude or the girl pay back taxes.

Right? So whatever happened in that previous relationship, don't make me pay back taxes for what he did. That's not me. And I shouldn't make you pay back taxes for what. But the thing is, is that it's inevitable that the residue of prior relationships will be there

until you either have a chance to flush it all out or to find someone who is completely compatible to you without the other stuff. And so I think that's what you're looking at in this situation is you're seeing, here it is, and football is all about being hands-on. Like most coaches across the national football league, there's exceptions, but they aren't modern-day Zoom,

you know, let's do things technical, and they're not used to that. They're used to saying, hey, I got to, these X's and O's, and I need to see and be a part of a tangible situation where I'm physically being able to touch guys and put guys on the field to implement my situation. And here it is, you're talking about coming into a franchise where you aren't ever really prepared to deal with all that Dallas brings until you're sitting in the seat. And that seat is hot from Jump Street. It's not like, hey, we're cool. No, no, no, no, no, no.

When you jump into this frying pan, it's like cast, iron skillet, it's already blazing, and people want immediate results, positive results. And so it's one of those situations where Mike McCarthy and his crew came into a situation that I promise you, I promise you, he had no idea what he was truly getting into. And then now he's here and you're trying to implement things and systems and beliefs and all those kinds of. kind of stuff. And I guarantee you Mike wasn't used to doing that all offseason via Zoom. Right. And then I finally get a chance to touch the players and to kind of really get around them. And I got four weeks. I got four weeks to implement what I want to implement. See it, like actual see it. The pool of players around the league is dried up. I can't bring guys in because protocols or so on and so forth. Oh, by the way, I have to be.

evaluate and build a roster in four weeks and still implement an offensive defense and a special team and get ready for week one of the season. And so all these things are happening, and I'm doing it under this microscope of being the head coach of the world's most recognizable franchise. So you add all that to the mix, man. It has been, you know, and then each week it's a new story, right? Oh, my quarterback's going. Oh, my left tackle's going. My right. my right tackle's going. And all of a sudden, guys can't play football. And you're trying, you're trying to literally,

as fast as you're trying to get the water out of the boat, someone else is drilling more holes into your boat every single week. And you're drowning. And you're drowning. And you're waiting for a moment for it all to stop. And it does it. It does it. Because every three, four letter network you want to put,

what's on the A block, Dallas Cowboys. What's on the B block, Dallas Cowboys. And now I'm trying to, I'm trying to get a team together and COVID and games are being canceled and players are being hurt. And I'm trying to shovel this water, shovel this water, shovel this water, shovel this water. And it's, oh, more holes, more holes, more host, more host, more host. So it's been a, it's been a, an experience to say the least. I want to follow up before Bobby jumps in. What does it take for a coach to endear himself to a player. In other words, we're seeing it at other places that have had similar challenges. I've referenced Ron Rivera with Washington. We're finally seeing it with Joe Judge and the Giants.

I was really impressed with the way players talked about and bought into Kevin Stifansky when I recently did the Browns Titans game. So you saw my report, you know, week four guys were checking out. What could Mike have done or have you talked to some guys, you know, yourself have done better to endear himself to these guys. When you talk about the new age athlete, you talk about guys who, who need, I don't want to use the word friendship, but I want to use the word that you have to feel like you and I are on the same page. It's not a friendship because that's the wrong terminology to use. But I think what Mike, he has to do a better job of appearing to be vulnerable to his players,

appearing to be a guy who understands his players, and then try. That's the best way about going about this, is being able to encapsulate this sort of friendship that, yes, I'm your superior, am I your boss, but I'm rowing with you. You know what I'm saying? I think that's what Ron Rivera gives off. I talk about Raim Rivera. Everybody loves, you feel the man about Ryan Rivera.

Like, you feel like Ron Rivera, I can go and talk to him. And it's a conversation, and it's not a chastisement. He expects a lot of you, but he's also willing to give himself. And I think those. those are the type of thing that players in the 2020 era, that's what becomes more appealing and more revealing to players and gets them to, you know, play a little bit harder for you. You know, the word that one of a players used in Cleveland was,

he vibes with us. There's a vibe. There it is. There it is. That's the young person term. It's a vibe. What I thought about that, I was like, I would love to be.

be in a room when players felt like they were viving with Mike McCarthy because I don't know like you feel like you catch a vibe from that rule. You catch a vibe maybe from Joe Judge, although I've heard he's a little tricky. You catch a vibe with Sean Payton, right? Like Sean's got like the boom boxes in the locker room smoke machine. He's dapping up players and he's it. I don't get it leaked that he did a watermelon smash to get players height, but yet also told us that week that what happens in player meetings, stay in player meetings, but it was okay for us to find out about him smashing watermelons, which I thought was interesting. So I was just kind of curious your take on how did Jason Garrett vibe with guys? Because I never heard, there were guys that didn't get along with Jason Garrett

over the years, but I never got the sort of pushback that I've heard with this group. I've always said this about Jason Garrett. And I've never, I've never, I've never, I never, I never vibed. And a lot of people never vibe with Jason Garrett as a coach. But I understood and vibe with Jason Garrett as a man. And so if I can talk to you and come to you as a man, there's this level of respect. Even if I don't mutually agree with everything you do as far as. coaching. Not everybody's able to separate the two, right? It's like sometimes everybody just

that you, you have, you just throw all one thing in a pot, just this gumbo style of things. And if I don't like his policies, then I don't like this and I don't like that. And it's everything just all jumbled in. And maturity allows you to be able to say, hey, I may not agree with everything and how you do things here, but boy, do I respect you over here. And that kind of almost lends for you to at least listen to the things that you may not always agree with. And the thing that Jason had also, especially early in his career, he had a good mix. He had a good mix of vets that were kind of being ushered on the way out

with the younger group. And you've talked about that. You've got to talk about that a lot of times where with Tony, it was like Tony didn't catch the vibe with Zeke and all the rest of the guys. He was like, yeah, you guys want to do what? What is that you listen to? And Tony's like, I can't quite, you know, my vibe ain't quite there. And so there was this disconnect.

There was this, there was this. And it's kind of almost like that, that wave that was a younger wave have now become the elder stakesman in the locker room and their vibe is different. And then you bring in this coach. And I think in Mike McCarthy, who is more old school, right? He's more of the, he's cut from that old school cloth. And so again, even the whole Zoom situation thing for him is like a new battle. I remember I get a chance to speak to the rookies every single year.

And he jumped on the Zoom call about 10 minutes beforehand. And he and I had a chance to just chop it up. You know, just chop it up. And one of the things that he said, he said, I hate this. I hate this. He goes, I hate this because this doesn't give them a chance to impact. And when players don't get a chance to align with your vision and your vision align with those players,

there's this disconnect and there's this fight. Now, I don't think it's all Mike. Some of these players that, you know, we talk about the brands, some of these guys aren't holding up their end of the bargain, and it's just making for just an absolute cluster F, of a mess that we've seen through 12 weeks of the season. Real quick. Did you vibe with him?

With who? With Mike and your brief interaction. Yeah, I mean, we were 10 minutes and it was what he was saying about how he wanted to implement respect and, you know, because he, I asked him, I said, coach, normally I don't get a chance to, you know, when I was there with Jason, Jason never came into those meetings when I was there speaking. He was like, well, I want to make sure I show guys about respect. You're a guest in my house and this is my house. And so I want to make sure I come and pay you respect and let me.

these guys know, like, you know, hey, if coach is here 10 minutes before, you should be here 10 minutes before. I'm with that. Because there's a level of... Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds, I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me,

Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only

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Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? where you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

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Oh, my God. And it was like, no, this is someone who's coming to speak to you who's set in your seats. And you should pay him the respect. You should give him the respect that you would give me because he's here as our guest. You know, and so that was a good situation that we vibed on it. And it was early talks of how he wanted things to go for that team. And so, you know, yeah, I vibe with him. A story of the rose is a story of love.

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What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination. Our sense of wonder. And our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think.

Find a forest near you and start exploring. Discover the Forest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. You know, we've drawn this comparison a little bit here in terms of, you know, maybe how difficult the transition has been for guys with Jason Garrett's leadership style, the way Jason Garrett, I mean, for all of Jason Garrett's faults, I think most everybody in that locker room felt like Jason Garrett at least cares about me on a level that like transcends football.

Like I connect with this guy as sort of a fatherly figure or a respect for. figure. But outside of just that one transition, I think when you look across the position groups, you know and are very close with John Kittna and the way John Kittna operates and the way John Kittna connects with people. We know the way Chris Rashard tried to connect with guys and tried to reach guys. Rod Marinelli was that way. Mark Colombo was one of the guys. Mark Colombo was basically handpicked by the offensive line is this is the guy we want in the room with us. And so when you look across the board at all these different types of coaches, Gary Brown, who, you know, was like dad to the running backs group.

And you look at how all these coaches throughout the entire coaching staff reached these guys. Do you think that with or without Zoom, just the unique makeup of last year's staff and how many guys were about the person, even on the assistant coach level,

that there was going to naturally be a little bit of an uncomfortable curve, I guess. That, you know, this isn't every single guy at every single position group pretty much had somebody who tried to reach them as people, and that's not necessarily the norm across, you know, all position coaches. And so do you think there was naturally going to be this, you know, growing pains for everybody at every position group like,

man, this guy doesn't, I don't connect with him the way, you know, Rod Marnelli, who wanted me to look up historical figures or Gary Brown, who took us to get barbecue and things like that? Do you think that was naturally going to be something that was tough to get over? And do you think they have the capacity to get over it? To answer, yes. And that's what, that's with anything, man. that's with that transition.

A lot of these guys grew up with Gary Brown. A lot of these guys grew up with Rod Marinelli with Jason Garrett, literally from pups. Your pups. When you came into the league four or five years ago and these men helped raise you. So when you talk about a Zika and a Gary Brown, he was a pup, you know?

And it was like, come on, pup, let's go. And he was there for all those moments. You know, he was there when Zeke was getting in trouble and, hey, what's up? Are you good? You know what I'm saying? No, forget football. Are you good? Right?

And it's like, Mark Colombo is like, yo, let's go get a couple beers. And these are pups, right? Zach and all that they were pups. And so you get a chance to grow with these guys. And naturally, when you look at what, let's look at the college perspective, universities don't get five-star recruits. right? Texas isn't why someone goes to Texas. It's the coach that comes in there, right? It's the coach that comes, sits in his living room that he connects with, that just so happens to be at Texas.

Now, yeah, Texas is a place that you want to go, but if the, you know, if the coaching vibe isn't there, I'm vibing over here at Alabama. Yeah. You see what I'm saying? And so all of these guys grew up, the guys that we're talking about, your Leighton van derrushes, your Zaylans and your, your, your, your, your, your, your, all these guys grew up with the guys that you were just naming in that old regime.

And then it's over. All right, so help me out with that, because I think Bobby knows exactly where I'm going to go. Well, well, before that, real quick. We talked into the season, though, Jesse, about guys that wanted to come to Dallas because of coach McCarthy. And those are the same.

same guys, Everson Griffin, that shipped out. What do you make of that? Yeah, you know what? It happens, right? You think you want to come somewhere and then you get there and it's

the grass isn't greener. It happens all across the league. You know, look up in Seattle. You know, they gave up a lot for what they got for Jamal Adams. And while they're still have one of the worst defenses in the league,

you have this one thought process in your mind where I want to go and I want to do this and then you actually get there and it's not what you thought and things look a little bit different and there is a dynamic that people and Jane you've been all around this league and you've covered many locker rooms

there's a dynamic in Dallas that people just don't understand and then you get here and it's like oh no no this you see this it's not a little cubbyhole that you are in Minnesota, right? This is everybody's talking about you now. And some people just can't handle that type of exposure, criticism, whatever it may be. And it doesn't just, it doesn't work out sometimes. Do you think that hurt this year a little bit? In other words,

it felt like they brought in a lot of, they were a lot more active in free agency. And I remember, you know, Bobby and I, we were working on our hits. It was like, look at the Cowboys. They're so active in free agency. They're getting Don Terry Poe, Gerald McCoy, Everson Griffin, Alden Smith, we hadn't seen them be that active with somebody like the bigger name free agents, had been for the most part kind of guys that had been journeymen in the league. Because those guys are so used to doing things elsewhere, do you think that that made, it ruined the pH balance in the locker room? Like it got a little acidic because these guys weren't used to certain things.

They were, you know, we even saw it with Michael Bennett a little bit last year. Not saying that Michael Bennett was bad for the team. I actually thought he was good for the team. I mean, he checked me one day in the locker room. and I was like, respect. But because of so many of those pups were homegrown and they were used to one way, do you think the Cowboys in the future

need to be a little bit more careful about what they bring? It's like, you know, to fish tank. You can only bring certain fish don't mix. And then they start killing off the other fish and, you know, what used to be like a very thriving fish tank in aquarium in your house is all of a sudden things are dying. That's, I honestly feel like there was something off a little bit this year because of some of that.

How many arguments have you guys had on Twitter throughout the years when guys, like, especially with Dallas Cowboys friends, it's always, get him, get him, get him, and like, you know, that just may not fit here. And people fail to realize just how important meshing guys and fitting guys together. And one of the things that is going to have to happen with this group is you're going to have to see some of those guys get weeded out. And that's the hard part about bringing veterans into your program. Veterans are set in their ways. All veterans, especially if they've been somewhere else for a long amount of time and had success, like Pro Bowls, All-Pro's, Super Bowls, and they weren't just like Jags on that team.

They were actually key contributors. And then they come to a situation and it's like, do what? I am, you know who I am? And so now you're trying to, you have, I'm just going to use these names, right? You have Eberson Griffin who comes in from, right, Zim system up in Minnesota. And then you bring a guy like Don Terry Poe, who we found out just whose heart wasn't even in it, who talked about him possibly retiring before, right? So now you got Everson Griffin, you got Don Terry Poe, and now you have these other guys who

built their names and their attitudes under Jason Garrett, and you have them all. in the locker room, all trying to, because honestly, all the offensive guys have been here. All those guys have been here. It's all the defensive guys who you were trying to bring all these pieces in. And it's like, you know, well, who is the voice? We talked about when Michael Bennett came, it was like, wait, you've been there for a cup of coffee and you're leading to charge in the locker room now. But that's Michael Bennett.

If you know Michael Bennett, I don't care what room Michael Bennett goes into. He's going to be an alpha dog. And if, and he's not, he has no problem being a snippy alpha dog. if he's been there five years or five minutes. And so you're bringing in all these different personalities with a new coach and everybody's trying to figure this thing out, but everybody's trying to also plant their flag as if I'm the alpha male, here's how I do it, look at me, and the pH balance, you know,

and you're absolutely right. It's off because that is the danger of when you're building of team and when you don't have an off-season. Because all these things get weeded out in the off-season. season. When you got OTAs and mini camps, you can look around and you can go, that ain't, that is, you know, that don't smell too good. That, you know, maybe that don't, this ain't jelling the way I thought it would gel. But when you don't have OTAs, mini camps, guys are just guys being around, you can tell that thing ain't kind of meshing. And now you can make necessary

changes before you go in training camp or be looking for those pieces while you're in training can't when guys get let go to kind of bring in to build your to build your roster it was hey listen guys here's what we got is what we need let's go and it was like and it's it's why we looking at three and nine right now and we we make that point we talk about where the cowboys front office may have aired and where this coaching staff may have had their issues and you know lord knows we've talked a lot about where the players have their issues in terms of you know busting coverages and things like that. But to look at it a little more psychologically, I guess, when you look at, is there a possibility that there's a little bit of the step-parent dynamic here?

That like, we talk about like, okay, here's, you're not my mom, you're not my position coach, you're not my person. How much of the onus needs to be on the players to have like receptive hearts to change? Like, dude, you can be upset about it all you want. This is your reality now. and you need to be willing to, you know, have a teachable heart with this new coaching staff. We're talking about entitled spoiled athletes. There are plenty of them. There's a whole lot of them.

And again, that's my brotherhood, right? I come from that. I come from that. We're talking about entitled spoiled athletes. By the way, who was able to get away with murder in the past, who was able to loaf, who was able to, we've heard, play hero ball, to be out of alignment and assignment and still show up on Sunday and get their starting job. So again, this is the culture that was built prior to Mike McCarthy getting here.

And then now when guys get here, what do you want to tell me, Bobby? I make $5 million a year. I make $8 million a year. I make $12, $12, $15, $20 million a year, do what? Now, here's what I'm going to do. Because I know at the end of the day, if you let me go, I'll find another team. But boy, am I going to be a big hit on your cap? So you think these guys don't know that?

You think ages don't, they know these things. And I remember being in Cincinnati. And I won't name the player's name, but I remember a player telling a coach, I make $9 million. What the, they're going to do? do to me. And that's the honest of God truth. See, it's funny you say that I won't name the names or the team, but I know a story in recent years where a player started to fill himself after they got paid and there was an incident at practice. Coach sends them home, comes back the next day

for treatment, think they're going to go back to practice. Coach calls them into the office, literally checks them and reminds them that they make more money, they've spent more time, they're not going anywhere. And the attitude of said player changed real quick. I don't think we've ever seen a coach do that in Dallas because they know they can go over the coach's head and go right to the principal's office. You know one of those players.

You and I, one of my favorite conversations that you had out, and if you remember, we read it, what is it, front porch in Dallas? I remember. We went to a restaurant and I was fascinated just learning your backstory, which I want to get into when we talk about your charity that I didn't even know about but about how you were roommates

with Des Bryant. And obviously Des and I have like become friends of the year. Bobby's got to know him. And there's a really endearing side to Des. But there's also a side that can be very difficult, very emotional and coddled by that organization. Do you think Des would have benefited from more tough love and not being able to go

over the coaches? head because as Jerry said it, he said he had a heart for Des, but he has a pain in the ass. Right. But they, but that's, that's, that's you building an angry dog and upset that it bit you. You think Des, you think Des, you think Des, that's what got away with that. You, you know Sean Peyton really well. You think that's what's done any of this under Sean Peyton. I'll be curious if Des gets away with his Twitter tirade with his, John Harbaugh because John's another one. So I'll take you guys back.

Remember Robert, was it Robert Meacham, Tennessee receiver? He was drafted in the first round by the Saints. And we were having a joint practice, New England and New Orleans. In Foxborough. And Robert dropped, I mean, Adon, dropped it. And Sean Payton, this is your first round. This is the golden child. Sean Payton laid into Robert Meacham.

And he told, he was like, you think that bull is acceptable? I will ship your back to whatever the hell. I mean, this is your first round pick. And he laid into him to the point where it was like, I'm talking about screaming. We're in a live one V1. And he is laying into Robert Meacham. He's insane when he gets worked up, yes. Right.

And I'm saying, like, I've been in the locker room where I look at a guy like Grunk, right? When do we see Gronk's antics in the offseason? We don't see him, we don't see him August and February. Why? Because Bill didn't play that. So there are certain guys who Bill let you know day one, here's what it is. Sean let you know day one, here's what it is. what a guy like des

Des, Des, Des benefits from stern, strict discipline. That's when Des is at his best. If you let Des be Des, you are in for, you are now controlled by the roller coaster. So when Des is good,

Des, you have a great practice. When Des decides to say, F, y'all, well, just know it's going to be Fyaar for this whole day. And now you have to deal with that. So you bring up something interesting there. And I just want to go to the psychology because, you know, a lot of us that cover the team and fans, we've got questions because we talked about.

It feels like the pH balance and whatnot's off. When you hear some of the comments the players have made this year, they've been a lot better about, you know, we don't have locker room access. So you don't get a lot out of them. It's on Zoom calls. But some of the things that they have said have been curious. And it's hard to really deep dive with some of these guys. because Mike has told them not to talk to the media,

keep it in-house. But when you hear some of the stuff that started at the beginning of the year and what we heard today, are those guys that sound like they're respecting this coaching staff? Are we reading too much into it? I'm just curious.

No, I think, I like to call it self-preservation. When everything starts to go bad, I got to start saying now, it ain't me. I got to start trying to showing you like, I'm giving you the cheese. I'm giving you these little cheese bits

where I want you to go and follow that. And it's like, well, don't come look at me. Don't, you know, I, Antoine Woods, for the life of me, I don't understand why he did this.

Are we talking the picture? He posted a picture of, I haven't got one of these a triple team since high school. You know, what that said to me. That said to me, hey now, it's the bums behind me that's not getting it done. I'm eating up these blockers for the guys on the second level. What are you on for me? You can put all the ha, ha, ha, ha, ha faces you want on that. To me, that says self-preservation,

while the ship is sinking, I want y'all to know that this 300-yard performance that we gave up, well, look at here. I'm being, I'm being a triple team. And so, It's these little things that everyone now is, because the losing is happening and it's happening in such a rapid pace, it's such a freaking bad pace. Everyone's now is like kind of almost scrapping of saying, and cold word, it ain't me. Like, it's, it's him.

It's that. It's the scheme. It's, no, that everyone now is in self-preservation mode, trying to save themselves from this sinking ship. and there's not enough life raves on this thing. Can it be fixed? In other words, do you think that this group,

given the challenge of this season and the whole, it's not me, it's them, it's not all of us, like look at the coach. Can this team figure it out with this coach?

Or are we going to see more of the same next year? I think. Or is there going to be a next year? If they lose out and go 3 and 13, is there a next year for Mike McCarthy? There has to be, right? Like, if they lose the final four games the way they did against Washington, it's got to be bad. But if they lose the final four, like they get blown out by 20, including by the Bengals,

who are right. That might do it. If they fire Mike McCarthy, that's egg on the face of Jerry Jones. Because everybody's going to then say, well, you only, you kind of, you placated to the Rooney Rule by having a cup of coffee with Marvin Lewis. And then you hire really the first guy that you talked to in Mike McCarthy. So that's almost egg in the face on Jerry and Stephen for, I guess, not doing their complete due diligence of looking at guys like Matt Rule and Lincoln Riley and so on and so forth. So I highly, now I don't know, and this is 2020, so anything's liable to happen. I highly doubt that they fire Mike McCarthy.

I think there needs to be an overhaul of guys. you got as a coach you're already seeing that can they afford it though jesse i mean we're talking about trying to get dach signed you've got what 13 guys on i are bobby eight of them were starters the cap likely going down a little bit uh next year um yeah the problem is clearly defense right how does mike nolan survive i know that that is mike's guy i feel like mike has been in defense of him despite his own players. I just wonder if Mike survives. Hasn't Mike McCarthy been around the league long enough, though?

I mean, he seems pretty like we hear so many no-nonsense answers from him, like when your report came out and he said, you know what? These are the things that happen when you have losing football. I think Mike McCarthy's been around long enough that at the Jones Kevin and say, dude, Mike Nolan's got to go. I think he kind of goes, man, that's the price of being as bad as we were. I get it.

I'm not happy, but I get it. I said this, and I said this jokingly, but I was dead serious. Mike, and I'm not defending Mike McCarthy, Mike did what a lot of us would do. I would do, you would do, right? Is I got into a position of power, I hooked my homie up. Totally.

Right. Faulting for it. Coaches around the NFL have done that for years and years and years. All of them do it. Now, the thing is, is my, like, it's like you recommend someone for a job. And Jane, you and I, we've had several conversation. It's like, Jess, if I told you to go there at 8 o'clock,

and you sold up at 10, dude, I'm never, I'm never putting my name on the line for you again. And it's like, you're my homie, and I want to see you thrive. But if you can't do your part, then hell, I'm not going, I'm not doing anything anymore. He hired the homie and the homie didn't work out. And this is, this is collateral damage. And hey, listen, you showed me a favor way back when I repaid it. But here's where we're at. I got to let you go for my sake.

And that's why I think Mike Nolan is gone. And I think I would not be surprised, Bobby, to your point, if the next two games are lost, that they don't get, they don't, they just cut ties right then and there and begin to start looking for, because now what you don't want to do is what we saw kind of, you know, hold on the guys. And now you're playing this dance about, you know, because if other candidates see that you still hold on the mic, they're going elsewhere. So I think you cut ties and now you start seeing all those candidates

who want a defensive coordinator of the job who are actually qualified to do so. They start poking their head out now. They're looking around. They're like, all right, hey, let me send my resume. Let me make my phone calls. And then that way that also sends a message to you have to get a jump of what you're going to office

is going to be like. Because we don't know what the off. I mean, the way COVID is spiking, we don't know what the office is going to be like. So if you're going to change coaches, it's best that you do it. now or as soon as possible so that one, the new guy that you do bring in,

there can be a collaboration of what scheme are we running, what players do we want so that we can go out and get those guys, whether it's via draft or via free agency, you've got to act on that now because you can't have what you had. Mike won't survive another year like this. What? I got a crazy, like I just want to bring the subject.

You promoted Kellyn Moore, who is literally, what, three years removed from the league and you moved him up, you believed in him he could do it. Why not move Sean Lee up? If there's any guy, like when I look at the pregame hype, when I see guys holding people accountable,

there was no one more livid about my report than Sean Lee. No one more livid that came out was livid because he is such a football guy. We know he watches countless amounts of tape. Why not? I'm with you. Am I crazy to just say? say like why not?

And and and and and and and and to that point, uh, I know I've told you Jane this probably. I don't think I've said it on the podcast yet, but I recently asked dozens and dozens and dozens of people around the league. Uh, Jesse, you were one I asked.

I asked a ton of people just in general who have been around the league, who have spent time around the league like who is the, the most intelligent football mind you've ever come across. And the most common answer I got. And it wasn't just from players and teammates. It was from a lot of different types of people. The most common answer I got was Sean Lee, which was surprising to me.

I didn't totally explain. that, but there was one person that told me said it's Sean Lee because he literally, they said he literally knows everybody's responsibility at everybody's position group on offense and defense. He knows everybody, he knows what everybody's supposed to be doing. Sean's obsession with like knowledge of football, like, you hear the term first guy in, last got to leave. If there was a like a poster child for that, it would be comb over slick back care Sean Lee. Like he is the pollster child of that type of, um, of that type of situation. And they respect him. Right. I won't tell you I talked to, but I'm going to read a text as we talk

about this Mike Nolan defense. And I, I'd gotten some calls from other coaches in the league about him and how they were shocked that Jerry didn't do his homework more on him. But when I asked, I said, what did you think about the defense as related to the Raven? Someone that studies a lot tape and a lot of people respect. They played a lot of different fronts. Nickel Bear 4-3. On the Lamar touchdown, they played straight man on four receivers with no safety. So when Lamar creased them, they had no one to stop him from hitting his head on the goalpost. They ran the exact same play a little later, and Dobbins went for 30. The ends were standing up sometimes so they could see better when what Lamar and the action was doing. Yikes.

Specifically, when they talked about Matt Rule, they said, Matt Rule's team message to everyone via Zoom at the very beginning of season was so motivating. He was the son of a New York City preacher who ran homeless shelters. He can communicate with anyone. So we talk about what the Cowboys have

and what they're missing. I'm just reading you someone that watches a lot of tape, knows a lot of people. That was their feedback. Yeah, but you have to remember unlike Matt Rule literally a year ago, how do you have success as a college head coach recruiting?

Right? I have to be up on the latest trends and lingo and hell, even some of the music. And my- Don't forget that living room manner. Went over mom and dad. And that's the thing is that now all I do is I go from five-star recruit, five-star recruit, three-star recruit, and I have nothing but my mouth that I have to.

And think about how many reps that Matt Rule has gotten from Temple, from Temple to Baylor to everywhere of just- Came into Baylor following one of the nastiest scandals in football and got them to win. So if you wanted to talk about a guy, now granted, Baylor's in Waco, that spotlight was so on that team and it seems like he handled it. And from the people I've talked to, they never really even interviewed him. And as one person in the league told me, they said,

Jane, that cowboy's job is a young man's job. It's for a young man. It asks me for someone who's hungry, who is innovative, who can relate to the guys, and that the guys are going to respect. And one of these people that I talked to in the league said, it's not a job that I'd want. I don't have the stomach for that.

And when we talk about Mike McCarthy, who's been out of year, he needed football as much as football needed him. He came in. He said he learned all these new tricks. He learned analytics. When things go wrong, it's because the analytics say that.

I just, not that I think that he's hot trash and Mike's not the guy. I think Mike can still coach. I think he's a good head coach. I think he could be that. I just don't know if it's in Dallas with everything that comes with this job. Think about it. Jason was young.

when he got the job. Right. Not incredibly relatable, but he was hungry. I'll give you this example. And I think what you're saying has so much validity to it about it being. I think football in general, I think sports in general is becoming a young man's game now.

But Andy Reed thrives. Pete Carroll is the oldest man in football. But he vibes with his guys, you know? But look at his assistance, right? He gets assistant. And I think that's something that you have to also look at. You can be an older, maybe even a little bit out of a touch guy. Who are you surrounding yourself with?

Are you surrounding yourself? Because why? We hit it on it earlier. What is so important to these players? The guy they sit in a meeting room with every single day. How is Nick Sabin able to still go out here? Because he, well, the program helps, but he's able to have guys around. him that these other players relate to.

So I think for Mike, one of the biggest things I think Mike did early in his Cowboys career was he buckled to the Kellynne Moore thing. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

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I don't know, I wasn't those meetings, but if you were kind of feigning to get a job, sometimes you say yes to anything, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll let Kellermore be the officer play caller, and I think that took away some of who he is, and we ask sometimes about the game, man, this and this and that, when you take those things away from him,

it throws off his coaching pH balance, because he's, it's such a routine of, okay, I know what I'm, doing. I'm here. And now sometimes you find yourself because I'm not calling plays. I'm, you know, I'm not fully involved, like kind of in the offense, you know, so to speak. I can find myself wandering, looking for things to do on game day. Well, let me go over here and yell at someone. Let me, because I'm not locked in. Like, when you call them players, I'm, when you're a play caller, you're locked into everything. Time. Didn't we kill him for that? Remember, he was the walkabout coach.

Yeah. We killed him for it. But at least what Garrett did, well was he got guys to buy in. But Jared was a home game manager. But agreed. But to your point, he got guys to buy in and motivate them in a way that they at least respected them. That's what I feels like missing with Mike a little bit. It's like there's like this lack of respect. And maybe that is because of COVID.

I don't know what it is. It's losing. Losing. Losing. Or maybe it's because he he's riding so hard for his homie that people are having a hard time with that. It's losing, Jane. It's losing. It's losing. A story of the rose is a story of love. From farms to our florists and right into the arms of sweetheart savoring a date night in. Best friends showing their Galantines how much they adore them.

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You mentioning that part about, you know, when you take away part of his routine, then maybe he's kind of stuck looking around, looking for something to do on game day. I saw something, and this was not discussed. I mean, there was only a handful of people, I think, who saw at the time. But ahead of the Pittsburgh game, the Pittsburgh game was the one where Zique was questionable, I think. but ahead of the Pittsburgh game

Mike McCarthy I've never seen a head coach do this at all three hours before kickoff he came out and stood by the tunnel and he stood there for a full hour and he talked to a Pittsburgh assistant coach for about a half hour but then there was another half hour

where he just sat there waiting for Zeke to come out to warm up and I just remember being struck by it like I never saw Garrett until 30 minutes before kickoff out on the field I don't typically see head coaches until 30, 45 minutes before kickoff before kickoff and they come out with the whole group.

And it just was odd to me. I was like, man, three hours before kickoff and the head coach is literally spending a full hour just sitting outside on the field and sometimes talking to people, sometimes just sitting there, waiting. And I thought it was a little bit odd. Do you think that's furthering that thought

that like he's a little bit kind of lost without what he normally does, which is the play calling? This is what he's always done. Like, think of like his entire career, when he came in the league, he came in like that, being involved in doing something. And then once you become that play caller, like, and I keep referencing going back to Sean Payton,

because I know that you have a relationship there and you've been around Sean. Like three out before the game, Sean is still kind of like, you know, still finalizing some things for the office, right? You know, who's up, who's down? All right, you know what? I slept on this last night. We're going to do this in the first 15 plays. He'll put in red zone stuff on Saturday nights at 2 o'clock in the morning. He's 20 before, and I'm like, that's insane.

But it helps when you've got a quarterback that you finish each other's sentences. It's easy for that guy to be like, oh, yeah, I've seen that before that worked for me. Let's add that to the play sheet. But I mean, you're able to do that. But his mind is still thinking about how can I perfect whatever game plan that we have? How can I add another wrinkle? How can I add another opportunity for us to have success? So you're always involved in something.

You're engaged. You're engaged. But Mike's just there. he's just there. And I think that, I think a part of that is, is, it eats away at you a little bit.

And now you find yourself just wandering, trying to find something to do it. Because they said, when the, the, the, the, lay up game,

they were like, what was he doing? He was talking to Faso. It's like, right. You're just finding stuff to do. It's like, you know,

but again. I hadn't thought about that. That is an interesting, you're one of the smartest guys that I've talked to, like I said, We had that one sit down one day and I was like, that was some fascinating stuff. That is an interesting theory.

That's why I love the show. I always tell our fans and our listeners, it's cathartic. We're sort of all talking through it since we're not able to fully connect to these guys. I certainly haven't heard from my guys since the report. But I think it's interesting to sort of talk through some of these things, but that makes a lot of sense. And to be clear, I'm not the president of the fire Mike McCarthy fan club. Like, I like Mike. Mike when I'd see him at Combine was always personable.

I was excited when he was coming here. I think a lot of people think, like, I fly my flag for Jason. I don't fly my flag for Jason. Jason and I had our differences. He once told me, I said, do you not like me? He said, we just do things differently. And I never quite understood what that meant. But I always respected him and I respected the way guys played for him.

And he allowed his guys, in my opinion, to be who they were. I mean, he allowed Des, it would drive it. nuts, but he allowed DeMarcus to say what he wanted. He allowed Dez to say what he wanted. When I think about some of these other programs, they allow these guys to say what they want. Like, be you. But I feel like this, it's like they've come in and like put a cap on these guys.

And I don't know. It's just, it's just so hard to evaluate Mike given COVID. So I like to talk these things through with you because I think you are a smart guy. And so that's my like long winded way of saying like, that's really interesting. I want to, and Jane, I think I brought this up early in the season. you shot it down. But I'm going to bring it up again because a lot has changed. And Jesse, I want you to, I'm going to throw out one of my world famous tin foil hat questions. Now, I know he got a lot of money above market value, but should it have been more of a red flag to people that Randall Cobb said,

I'd rather go to Houston than play for Mike McCarthy again, especially when he had such a good relationship with DAC and had put together a strong season, And don't you think that if he was as genuinely like tight with Mike McCarthy as the Cowboys wanted him to be, don't you think he would have said like I can take a bit of a discount to come back here? But it was significant amount of money. So this was my argument to Jesse. It was a significant amount of money that was more. They were on their second kid. And I don't know how long Randall's going to be playing.

He might have been thinking to himself, yes, his wife's a bad chick and she like makes a lot of money as an attorney when she decides that she wants to go back to work and do it full time. I'm just incredibly smart. I have like a girl crush on her. But maybe he wanted to be more featured in an offense. I mean, I think it's an interesting theory, Bobby. He got a lot of play last year. I mean, if penalties don't take away a couple of big catches for him,

he had a couple of really unfortunate, like illegal, you know, procedure or whatever. Like somebody's like somebody had an illegal shift on like an 80-yard touchdown. I mean, he's, I think he's close to like a thousand yards and seven, eight touchdowns last year. I mean, he put up good numbers and C.D. Lambs putting up good numbers. he'd be in that spot in theory. And so just it made it made me wonder that, you know, he showed up to that press conference when they introduced Mike. And, you know, he had a lot of great things say.

I don't think there was anybody who disliked Randall Cobb. I think he got along pretty well with everybody inside the locker room. I think there was a strong connection for him here. And so it was just, I, I know, I'm just being a little tinfoil hat. Is it odd that he said, I'll go to Houston instead. I'll go play for Bill O'Brien, who's got a terrible reputation. I love Bill. Okay, but I'm just saying terrible reputation elsewhere.

When you start talking about guys who are at the end of their career, it's kind of almost, let me storp as much of this bag as I can before I hit the road. I'm just being honest with you. And it's like Randall had a Super Bowl. I'm not correct, right? So he has a Super Bowl. I think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it was his rookie year. Yep. So he has a Super Bowl, right? He had his moment in time when he was a pro bowler. And now for him is I don't have anything else to prove. I need, I'm trying to get all I can in my nest egg. And, you know, if you, I love Dallas. I'm only going 45 south.

So I'm a 45 minute southwest plane ride away from if my wife and kids wanted to stay here. I can literally, if I wanted to, if I wanted to be fancy smancy, I can literally take a flight in the morning to practice and come home for dinner. If I wanted to. So I don't think there was, I don't think that was a kind of a red flag. I just think of a player who's kind of seeing the writing on the wall, knowing his career is going, it's coming to an end pretty soon and saw an opportunity to make a couple more million dollars

in the state that doesn't have any state tax. And he jumped on it. I just said, two and a half million extra dollars. No, I know. It was a ton, like I said, I'm not saying that's even the case. I was just throwing out of theory. I was curious if the theory was. Was it like $4 million?

I mean, yeah, he got like $9 million. annually. And Dallas probably wasn't going to spend, Dallas wasn't going to give him more than five or six probably. But I just, it's more just like, okay, let's cobble together enough information here.

I think we see, Randall Cobb leaving, right? Everson Griffin coming in here, like, drawn in by Mike McCarthy, less than two months later, like came in here as a willing, like I'm buying in,

probably more than other people were because he chose to come here. And then within two months was like, okay, I went out of here. And then you look at things like, who was the most consistent last year in the locker room, Jane, insisting that it was the player's fault what was happening on the field and not the coaching staff? You remember who it was?

Cod. Jalen Smith. Jalen consistently said these are day of mistakes on us. This is nothing about our preparation. Consistently said that. And now this year there's been like two or three instances of like, are you throwing the coaching staff under the, it just seems like there are these little, like when you cobble them together, you might be able to like say, okay, well look, you know, there was a bang heard from the grassy knoll.

and somebody saw, you know, something over here and back into the left and Randall Cobb left for Houston. See, Jesse, this is why I agree that there, the reason why I even put the report out is because I believe it's not all coaching. I mean, I believe it's not all players. And so the players just kept getting trash. My point was there's another piece to the puzzle. In other words, coaches do have to put their players in a position to succeed. And I think heading into the season, we heard that this defense was going to be exotic. It was going to be multiple.

And it's been so exotic. They're on an island. And there's no lifeboats for them. And they're so multiple. I just read you the list earlier of like what fronts they're playing. I think it's just, it's a lot for this group to digest. And to your point, in a COVID season, when they haven't built up the trust in this new coaching staff that they need to do certain things. Like somebody brought up to me, why is DeMarcus Lawrence in a two-point?

it's it's disingenuous to his skill set why do you have two linebackers out there against a right against a running quarterback instead of three and so i think that while might keep saying they need to trust the process do things that aren't comfortable for them it's hard for guys to trust the process do things that aren't comfortable for them when they haven't had the opportunity to really be taught the scheme the opportunity to buy in and as a result we see them improvising and abandoning and going back to what they know because they, to your point, have some of these egos and they're getting tired of being called trash. And then when they do that, they get exposed. I think it's not that complicated. I think that's what's going on here. That's

just my sense. No, you're definitely driving down the right road. And it's a, it's a complicated mix. because they're both that fault. One thing I know about coaches, especially those who've been around this league a very long time, they're stubborn. They're stubborn. This is my system. This is what I know.

I hang my hat on it. I've had success with it. If I just keep banging this square into this round hole, it's going to fit. And it's hard for them to come off of that. because to be honest with you, this is what I know. This is what I know.

And when you routinely get jobs over and over and over and over and over and over again, it doesn't force you to change. You allow to stay the same. So now you have a coach who has a system and wants to do it a certain way. And you have players who are a different system and a different way of learning. Because again, we said earlier, these pups were groomed and, grew up in a different system. So everything about their off-season training, their weight training, everything was grooming them to do something different. And then the change happens. And again,

you have no off-season to allow that preparation and acceleration to learning on both, on players learning systems, system learning players, and it meshing. And then now you try to bring it together and you're trying to get these two things to work and sometimes you get it to work and you'll see well that that was a bad scheme fit right there and then you'll see things like we saw the other night and Leighton even said it he goes I'm supposed to be in the front side of a gap and you watch the film and you're saying Leighton you were going to the front side any gap and then all of a sudden for whatever reasons he told us he said I second guess myself but why I think it goes back to my my point he sort of questions

if that's the right call. But see, and then DeMarcus Lawrence, we've got to play this clip, Bobby, because he cut me off mid-sentence. I heard that clip. And it's like he wanted to walk us through, this is how,

I don't want to read into, because I haven't followed up with DeMarcus because I can't. Right. It was almost like he wanted to explain, well, I got to do this, this, this, and this, and he's got to do this, this, this, So yeah, he might second guess himself.

Yeah, I might be rushing up. But these are things you guys aren't seeing. And I was like, that's interesting. Can I play the conservative end, which is not normally my play, is to err on the side of caution and say and think, you know, the warmest, fuzziest feelings. My read when hearing DeMarcus answer that didn't, because I know this was a debate by some people on social media.

Brian Broadus had mentioned he thought it was this way that it sounded like you're questioning all the things the coaching staff is having, do. My read on it was when I heard DeMarcus Lawrence say that, I think DeMarcus Lawrence was saying when any coaching staff is playing against the triple option, you've got a ton of responsibilities. And so I think it was more he was talking about

the responsibilities versus the opponent rather than the responsibilities the coaching staffs were putting on him. It's just it's triple option football and you're asked to do a lot of stuff. But my thing, when you're talking about things like triple option, like yes, a lot of different things can happen, but your responsibilities are

are your responsibilities. Yeah, and I mean, to be fair, they were playing it right at the start of the snap and late and abandoned it. And that's what I'm saying. And, but to. Yeah, Steve, you said you got a lot of the same personnel that you're,

that have just been inefficient against the run. So Bobby, you're my football savant here. Can you think of any game last year or the year before where they played a triple option quarterback and were able to actually get it done? Um, similar players?

No, I mean, they've gone against a mobile quarterback. they haven't really gone against a team that runs the ball the way Baltimore does. But I mean, also to be fair, Stephen said when he talked to the fan this week said that it wasn't just Baltimore,

that this is a consistent issue all year against the run game. I mean, you've got three of the three of the 11 worst rushing defense performances by the Cowboys in franchise history have been this year. And so,

I mean, there's there's a lot there that, you know, is, is hard to explain. But do players just, but do players just digress that quick in a season? So my point is where I'm going with this, Jesse, is we are seeing a lot of similar personnel at there specifically against the run game. Do players just go down the drain that, that many players go down the drain that quick in one season because of COVID?

Because we're not seeing that with other teams. So what I'm getting at is going back to the argument that I made earlier, I think it's a combination of both. Well, and Jane. So why not just simplify this thing, which Mike Nolan got a little testy with when I asked earlier in the season, well, we have simplified it. We have to blah, blah, blah, blah. Whatever you're doing is not working. So get through the four games and scheme this thing up to the skill set of these players.

And then next year, try and reinvent the wheel. And that's, that that was the exact point Chris Richard made when we talked to him recently was Chris had said that for all the talk about we weren't disguising things and we weren't doing this and that. He said there is a concept. in football called ability alignment. And that is you align and you put your players in position to where their ability will allow them to make the play. And so there's certain things you can't ask them to do. And so I wonder if that's kind of what's at play here. Is Mike Nolan thought that these players were more capable of things within his scheme than they were.

And he's learning quickly, they can't do the things that I need them to do. Yeah, but I go back to you brought up Chris Rashar and Chris Rashar simply said, yeah, we simplified it last year and we didn't get it done. Yeah. So that that tells you as well. well, a coach sit here and told you, we simplified it. And yet we still were bad. We still were bad in run defense last year. So this isn't a new thing.

So whether you simplify it or whether you complicate it, the results have been the same. Because at some point in time, Rod Marinelli and Chris Rashar began to just simply say, here's what we're going to do, and you have to be able to do it. Well, if it is the players, you've got to give the coaching.

staff credit for masking some of these deficiencies if they were historically this bad as a personnel group. I mean, and there is a lot of injuries too, obviously. Yeah, but still, like, come on, like there's certain things where if you can't get off a block, I don't care how I scheme it up. Right. If you can't get off a block at this level, I don't care what I do. And we've seen a lot of that. If you can't stay in front of a guy in coverage, doesn't care what I do. If there's certain things where you're just saying, well, what else do you want me to do? Like, hey, guy, listen, the guard's going to come off on you. But that's, that's football one-on-one. Now, if you can't and get rid of them and get to where you're supposed to get to, then, then hell, I'm handicapped now.

Jesse is it? It's so confused out there. And I'm not a tape girl. But when you watch it, I remember we were in the press box, Bobby. And I was like, what was that? Like, the utter confusion as they're getting lined up. And it's just so obvious. Like, you know, Like nuances that guys like Baldy would do on breakdowns, stuff that I wouldn't normally pick up on, literally I'm seeing them. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

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it was a home game, Jalen was called the plays when Leighton was at, and he was legitimately confused out there. It was wild. Jesse, to that point, when you just doing this, that reminded me to ask when you're showing the push pull technique and things like that. That's probably, I think, schematically one of the larger differences this year is that

Jim Tom Sulla's more, you know, two gaping and, you know, push pull and it's a physical like shed and and things like, whereas Rod Marnelly was all about guys getting upfield and the defensive line getting upfield. Is that potentially where most of this run game bleeding out with similar personnel's happening is because the defensive line is asking to run a scheme that, that they are not skilled at, that they can't, they can't. We, this last year, we gave up, we gave up bad numbers last year running the ball against us. Not quite this bad.

It was bad. It was bad against Minnesota. Dalvin Cook ran all over them. That was a bad game. And, and their big issue last year, honestly, was quarterback scrambling. Trubisky and Driscoll and other guys who were no names were picking up 60 yards rushing a game on you. And that was, I talked to some people who said that they thought that,

was a function of Rod Marinelli's scheme because defensive line were getting up field so quickly and then there were just these lanes for quarterbacks to go. This is the this is the simple yet complex thing that we have in the NFL is film.

Is that guys use all off season because all you had to do was watch film. You couldn't go anywhere. You couldn't do anything. So you just start watching film and watching film and watching film and saying he can't do this. He can't do this.

And so now what you see is you see a lot of things being schemed offensively to put those players in a position to have to now go to the weakest part of their game. And that's something that a lot of people are not talking about. Like, yeah, you can say scheme isn't. There's some other cats on the other side that they pay a bunch of money to who watch and film. and they're like, oh, we're going to most of you here, most you can get this, and we get the look that we want. And I have easy money. You know what I'm saying?

So it's like, that's just, you got to give credit to the other guy on the side of the ball as well. That is the essence of what football is. It's I'm going to try to figure out a way to highlight and make you play with your weak points. Yeah, I'm not going to, hey, guess what, guys. I'm not going to let Jalen Smith just run downhill on us. He's going to win more often than he loses.

What I am going to make Jalen do is play side to side. And we'll take our chances. Yeah, he may get us one time, but we may gash it for 37. We make gash it for 40. Hey, here's what I'm going to do with here. Hey, listen, no, Marcus Lawrence is a great player. Here's what we're going to do. I'm going to let them fly up the field and we're going to come right underneath them.

And so there's certain things that they're looking at and they're saying, okay, here's where they're, here's where they're, hey, we're going to make these guys have to cover. No, don't worry about it. I'm going to motion this guy inside. He's going to take the eye candy, and I'm going to have a guy go across the middle. If I could be you. And you could be me for just one hour.

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States Forest Service and the Ad Council. And we're live here outside the Perez family home just waiting for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-armed kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bag's daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Dipers and toys are everywhere.

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the right seat. Brought to you by Nidza and the Ad Council. There's other guys on the other side of the ball who get paid a boatload of money to figure these things out. And the cowboy, the personnel doesn't change. Zalin couldn't move side to side last year. Can't move side to side this year.

Right? Layton, he had his struggles in certain things, getting off blocks and shedding blocks. That ain't changed this year because you spent most of the off-season recovering from neck surgery. So again, they're seeing these things. And they're saying,

here's what we got to do, fellas, and they're executing it. And they're saying, you may stop us once, you may even stop us twice. And once DAC went out early in the season, there was nothing that said that I have to be in a hurry. Yep. Because I'm not worried about them scoring. So I can take my time and let this thing play out and then eventually crack it. Before, you know, when you have such a good quarterback or prolific offense or someone who were threatened, it makes you think differently.

But now it's like, oh, we'll punt because they're going to punt it back to us and then we'll try it again. And if it doesn't work, where I'm down. We'll punt again and then we'll either, you know, let them make a mistake and they'll put it back to us and then we'll crack it because we've seen it two or three times. We make in-game adjustments and now we go ahead and do it

because a lot of times in NFL games, it's not that you beat me for 60-70 plays. No, you found about five. or six of them that you really won. And that's the outcome of the game. Except this year, it's 60, 70 plays. They're getting, yeah. Yeah, there's been a few 60, 70 play games they've lost, yeah.

But, but, you know, you see what I'm saying? It's like, it's like this, this is what these guys see it. And there's no coaches and office of quarters are saying, we don't have to rush this stuff. We're going to get the look that we want because they're only scoring 16 points a game. When Dak was playing, they were scoring 30 plus. So that puts an onus on it. what, hey, if we do punt them the ball, the likelihood of four in the rush to those guys

making a play is significant. Now, whether you got Andy or Garrett, Gilbert, whoever, office court that they say, all right, we'll punt. Even if they do score, I like my chances, that they can't do that three more times. And they've been right. And so they just keep plugging away what they want to do and say, well, they'll give us the ball back. And they will do it again and they will crack one and they will get up 10, 14 points. And they can't come back from that because they don't have the offensive output to do so. It's depressing to talk about, you know, sometimes when Bobby and I talk about doing this podcast, some people have said, you know, we've been sporadic and they haven't been as regular.

It's like, what do you want us to talk about? I feel like it's like a broken record at this point. What's not a broken record, though, Jesse, before we let you go, is your bleeding heart for those that aren't as fortunate as us. this time of year, we always get the text from you that reminds us to give and give generously. I come begging for your money, baby. I love it. You are shameless about it, and I'm okay with it. Tell the listeners and the viewers that are watching on YouTube what you're about this time of year and how they can help. Yeah. You know, and a quick backstory of me, I'm middle of three boys born and raised in Roselle, New Jersey,

mother drug addict, father drug dealer, raised by my grandmother who made less than $35,000 a year. And so trying to feed three growing boys on a salary that, you know, that's tough. And there were a lot of times we didn't have much. And this time of the year were times where, you know, grandma had to make a decision. Was it, you know, I like to say we had more month than money and more bills than bucks. And so I have to, she has to make a decision. Do I, you know, do I wrap gifts and put them under the tree or do I put food in bellies. You know what I'm saying? Do I keep the heat on in the wintertime in New Jersey?

Right. And so those are the decision that a lot of people like my grandmother have to make. And the thing is, here I am, young Jesse Holly is thinking, man, I just, I want to be able to go back to school and see I got a Christmas game. I want to be able to go outside on the block and play with a Christmas gift. I want to be able to come down on December 25th and say, I have a gift under the tree. And as a kid, you know, I don't understand that grandma has to, has to balance this thing out. And I always remember just thinking, man, I just with someone, you see the commercials. You're like, why someone doesn't come help us? I would love some help. You know, for us, and in some days, he's like, you know, hey, this year, we're going to get long johns. He's going to get socks this

year. Sorry, you're not going to be able to get the thing that you saw in the Toys R Us circular. Yeah, I'm that old. The Toys R Us circular. And I remember we were coming from an away game against Miami. And I kind of had one of those moments where I felt unfulfilled. Like, Jess, you're not, you're living, but you're not, you're not changing. You're just here. And I remember doing like a self-assessment. I looked at myself up and down. Literally looked at myself up and down. I remember I had $300 sneakers on, $250 jeans, $300, $300 belt, $100 shirt. And I'm just like, I have a thousand dollars worth of clothes on and I just felt like, what are you doing? Like, who are you? are you doing? And I'm not saying that you can't have nice stuff. I worked hard, but it was like,

you just, you could do more. And that's where Holly's helping hands kind of came in to, to play. And I love Christmas. This is, like, Christmas matches my personality. I'm a giver by nature. I'm a joyful person by nature, unless you piss me off. And then I'm not, I'm a Grinch. But just the spirit of Christmas makes me happy. And when I think about, Christmas, I think about Little Jesse. And I think about there's some kid who will get up on December 25th and have nothing. I said, help. Do something to change the world. Do something to make someone feel good. And so we started Holly's Helping Hands. And for like 10 plus years now, I find families in the DFW area who are in need. And we try to give them a Christmas of a

lifetime. Not just a good Christmas, but a Christmas of a lifetime. Because it's just something, and most kids don't understand the fullness of what Christmas is. They think about Christmas and being, you know, a gift. And normally what we would do is we would have these families who didn't know each other, completely strangers. And there's something unique and special, and I'm not ashamed of my belief. I'm a follower of Jesus Christ. But there's stories all through the Bible where it talks about how God wanted to break bread. He wanted to sit down and eat with you. That meant something for him to sit down and break bread with you.

And I bring these families around from all around, and they come together and we cater a dinner at Dave and Busters, and we would come and we would break bread. They didn't know him from Adam, they didn't know him from Eve, but we all come together. And for those couple of hours, we were all family. In matter where you came from, no matter what your situation was,

they matter you were black, white, Hispanic, blue, purple from Mars or from Venus. We sat together and we ate. and we enjoyed each other's company. And you shared stories. And I would always tell, when I got a chance to speak, I would always tell them, I remind them, I, you know, I sat in your seats. I get it.

I understand it. Trust me. I said, but one of the things that my grandmother would always tell me about was legacy. And I would tell them, you will never get a chance to meet Yvon Holly. That's where the Y comes from in my email. I had to. I had to ask Jesse, yeah, because his Holly email has a Y in it. And I was like, is that a typo?

Do you mean to hit a J? Do you just get close to the keyboard? That email is kind of the last thing that I, it should be my grandmother's email. And it's the last thing that I have from her. So that's, I kept it. And so I still use that as a reminder of her. So the Y is for Yvonne. That's my grandmother's email that I've had since she passed away.

But I always tell them, I go, you'll never meet Yvonne Holly. but she'll reap the benefits of her. And I want 20 years from now, people may not never know who Mr. Fourth and Long is or who Jesse Holly is, but will reap the benefits of it because some kid was at Holly's helping hands and, you know, now when they're in a position,

they'll go, I remember when I was 10 and this guy came and helped us, and now I want to do that for someone else. And the stories that we have are remarkable, you know, some are sad. And I'll give you kind of, both on the spectrum. I'm athletic director now, right?

I'm living a pretty decent good life. I don't have any complaints. I'm at a championship volleyball game, right? Our girls are at a volleyball game in the championship. And I'm walking in the gym, and there's a group of volleyball girls walking in. And one girl is like staring at me. This is pre-mask, you know, pre-mask, you know, all that kind of stuff.

And I'm looking at her, like, why is she staring at me? But in my mind, I'm thinking maybe she thinks she recognizes me from whatever. and she goes, she walks by me, and then she comes back. She says, I know you. And I'm like, me? She's like, I know you. And I'm like, I'm sorry, sweetheart. I don't, I don't, she goes, you're the guy.

You're the guy from the Christmas thing. And I said, what? She said, my grandmother and my sister, we were at your Christmas thing two years ago. And I was like, oh, my. my goodness. And she was like, I knew I knew your face. You helped us out two years ago. My grandmother, she was raising us and you helped us out. I knew I remembered your face. And here it is. I'm like, wow, you know, she remembered that moment. She didn't, she didn't know me because I caught a touchdown pass or didn't catch a touchdown pass or we're not the one yard line or whatever you want to call it.

Or for what I did in college, she remembered you're the guy from the Christmas thing. And then, you know, and then another situation where we had it, we had a, we had a six old girl last year, her name's Ariel. Ariel has brain cancer. Ariel won't see 18 years old. She won't. And there's certain things that she couldn't do because her mom and her dad couldn't do Christmas because they spent all of their money and traveling expenses

and hotel stays to do her chemo and try to find different ways to give her a better chance at life and a miracle from brain cancer. It's just like, they're like, listen, all we can do. now is keep her comfortable. So they spent all their money in treatment and doctor bills and hospital stays and all the kind of stuff going across the country trying to save their baby. And because of the gracious donations that people have given me, I was able to give them a Christmas last year. And the girl was so sweet. There's a picture, and I'll post it on Twitter, there's a picture of we're pinky promise it, right? I'm still like, I will picky promise you. Like, that means a lot to me.

I will picky promise you. And we pinky promise. And I said, as long as you keep fighting, I'm going to fight with you. I'm going to fight to the very end with you. I still call and I check up on her, you know, and I have a shirt, Ariel's warrior, because we're just fighting with Ariel, you know. And so those are the things that now that we deal with.

I had a kid four or five years ago, his grandmother came and she said, all he wants to do is play basketball. It's all he wants to do. The time that we wakes up to the time. He's bouncing, bouncing, bouncing. But the park is a little bit ways away. And he always wants a bike to go to the park.

Well, that year, we got him a bike and a brand new basketball. And I hope this doesn't make me cry. But that Christmas, we get him a bike and a basketball. And that spring, I get a call from a pastor. And he said, your name's on the program. I said, what are you talking about? He says, I'm doing a service today for a kid that got hit by car and passed away. And I saw your name on the program.

And he screenshotsed me the name on the program. And it was his lasting memories, one of his lasting memories was spending Christmas with Jesse Holly. And that was his last Christmas. And so those type of things that I live with every single day, but there's so many faces, you know, the young people faces that look and they're just so happy. So that's my story. And this is why I do it every single year. And I'll do it as long as I possibly can because it's not about me.

It's about those kids. And I want my legacy not to be that I was a Dallas Cowboy. I want my legacy to be what my grandmother's legacy was, that I was a good person. Because the football stuff, that's cool. That's a platform. but being a good person, that to me, it lasts forever. And people will always remember that. What I love about my platform is I have the opportunity to get to know guys like you under the helmet.

You know, so many people turn on their TV and they know you guys based on stats. They know you guys based on your play. They know you from fourth and long. But you are truly changing and not living. And that's what I love about you. One of my favorite, like I said, days was sitting down with you and having a conversation. about who you are, what your makeup is about. So please tell people where they can get a hold of you. Yeah. Go to my Twitter at Mr. Fourth and Long. The link is in my bio. And listen, people think sometimes,

well, I can only donate five bucks. That works. Like, I make that stretch. My team makes that stretch. I can get you a pack of socks and some draws for $5. And there's some kids who need that, right? There's some kids who need, you know, need that. And we have great partners. like Old Navy and Great Brian Mills Mall who partners with us and really make sure that we get all the stuff that we need. And this has been a tremultry issue. This has been a year of just, man, body blow after body blow after body blow. And I get it.

Some people won't be able to. And I tell people, if you're not able, pray. Please pray for me. Just this. And if you're, that is to me, pray that someone will see this and be able to give double. you know, I'm like, if you can't give, I'm cool with that. Pray for me.

Pray for this. Pray for someone to send a donation that's tenfold of what you would have given. And to me, that's important as well. So if you can't give, pray for me. Pray for O.J. Holly. Pray for Holly's helping hands and say, hey, you know, Lord, whoever the God that you believe in or the spirits that you believe in or the universe that you believe in and saying, you know, send some good vibes his way.

And if you can donate, 5, 10, 15, 20, I mean, you know, one of the things the pandemic taught me was how much money we waste on little things right when you can't stop at Starbucks and get to $9 coffee when you don't stop at the gas when I stop at the gas station sometimes I'll like I'll go and I get like a slim gym in a in a red bull that's $7 right you do that a couple times a week that's $21 you do that you know four weeks out of the month we're talking about the northern part of a hundred bucks. It's like, dang, I do that. On top of getting gas, you just don't think about those things. So, you know, it's like, hey, don't have Starbucks this morning. I know it may make some people

crazy and make some people have real rage. But, hey, don't get the red ball this time you go to the gas station and donate to all this up of hands because it goes a long way and it can change the lives of children. Well, we vibe with you. We appreciate you. Thank you for doing this show with us. And we look forward to having you on again, front of the show. I love you guys, man. Anytime. Anytime. Anytime.

Anytime. You guys have been good to me, so I'm always going to be good to you. All right. Well, coming up on Sunday, the Cowboys get the Cincinnati Bengals. And you may term the Penae Sewell Bowl, because if the Cowboys, whoever loses this game is going to be in prime position for that third overall pick and likely taking Penae Soule, the Oregon offensive tackle. So it's not like there's not things. still on the line for the Cowboys just because the playoffs are a pipe dream. We got draft position to worry about against the Bengals this week.

Or Bobby, do they go to Jimmy's strategy and draft that quarterback behind their franchise? Stop that. Stop that. Stop that. I will entertain no Trevor Lawrence, Justin Fields, anything talk. Just pay DAC. Jerry. That's, if you get nothing else out of this year, pay Doc Prescott. A story of the Rose is a story of love. From farms to our florists and right into the arms of sweetheart, savoring a date night in. Best friends showing their galantines how much they adore them.

And those giving themselves a little love. Go to FTD.com and save 15% through February 14th with Code Crush 15 and celebrate your love story with iconic roses, florals, and gifts from FTT. Another podcast

from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Oden Kirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. On the Look Back at it podcast.

From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to Look Back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.