The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 'Boys and Girl - HOF Wide Receiver Terrell Owens Talks Cowboys Memories, Regrets, Controversy, Celebrations, Misconceptions

Episode Date: May 12, 2020

On today’s episode of the 'Boys and Girl Podcast, Jane and Bobby visit with Hall of Fame wide receiver Terrell Owens. T.O. talks about his time in Dallas, his career in general, and lots more in this wide-ranging discussion.Follow Jane and Bobby on Twitter and subscribe to get all the latest inside information from two of the most connected people in the Cowboys’ community. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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with the inside scoop on the Dallas Cowboys. Now, coming straight to you from the Lone Star State, here's Jane and Bobby. Boy, are we excited for this one? Bobby and I started this podcast back at the end of October, and we both said, who is our one dream guest? And our answer may shock you. It was Terrell Owens. I met him in Minneapolis through Nate Burleson,

And it was a big night because, like I said, I grew up really into the big personalities in the league. I was never really a college football fan. It was always the NFL for me. And growing up in Dallas, obviously I saw him when he played for the Eagles in San Francisco. We saw him a lot as NFC opponents. But then when he put on the starry to form, that was a really big deal. So in the off season and during this pandemic, people are sort of sitting around with some time on their hands. And I reached out and he immediately responded that he would do the show.

So today we've got them on. Joining us now is the great Terrell Owens, six-time pro-bowler, pro football Hall of Fame member, former Dallas Cowboy, and also the host of the Get You Popcorn Ready with Tio and Hatch podcast that he co-hosts with another former NFL receiver, Matthew Hatchett. You can follow them on Twitter at Tara Lohens. Tio, how you doing?

I'm good, man. How are you guys doing? Doing great. Really excited to have you here. first question I guess I want to lead off with because this is such a cowboy-centric show and I think people know a lot about your time in Dallas but there's still a lot that I think goes

unsaid and that has not been talked about both your arrival here and the departure so I guess tell the story about how after the release in Philly how everything came together and you ended up in Dallas yeah after release in Philly it was just a matter of me trying to, you know, find another opportunity. And obviously the Cowboys was that opportunity for me, Jerry Jones, you know, gave it to me.

And so for me, I just wanted to just continue on just, I guess, where I was at that time, I guess if you want to say the height of my career. And I just wanted to go where I felt like I was wanted somewhere that I could. could obviously flourish with the team that had the opportunity to not only just get to the playoff but having an opportunity to a chance to win the Super Bowl. And I felt like obviously they had the makeup to do that. And so unfortunately, obviously we know the outcome. But I just wanted to just extend my career and just continue to try to play at a high level.

So Jerry Jones was very, very gracious to give me that opportunity. and I'm very grateful for the three years that I played there. Obviously, I wish I could have played beyond that. I honestly, I thought I was going to end my career there, considering I had signed a four-year extension right before the abrupt, I guess, if you want to call it, firing or what have you. They release, cut, so it was unfortunate. All right, so I have to ask you, we'll get back to the release,

firing whatever you want to call it. But when you decided to come to Dallas, it was after one of the more infamous moments, I feel like in your career before social media, because this thing would have gone so viral. It was one of the games that I covered as a new sports reporter. I drove from Tyler, Texas to Dallas. And it's where you spiked the football on the star. George Teague, of course, then ran to knock you out of it to show the disrespect.

It was this thing that just, every. time your name comes comes up in Dallas, I think of it. What was it like being a part of that and then coming and putting on that iconic Dallas Cowboys uniform? Well, I think I've tried to explain it. I know I did, what was it, football life for the NFL network. And so I explained why I went to the star the first time. My coaches, my receiver coach at the time, George Stewart, He's come out since then and he's tried to explain why I went to the start the first time And I'm beknownst to everyone else

I didn't go there to try to taunt anybody It was just a mere celebration that I had kind of calculated Coming in, like obviously, you know, travel is a little bit different now But we had to go in there that Friday, walk through And so we at the end of that little walk-through practice, You know, we just ended up huddling up And we were like in the middle of the field So every position was kind of huddle up throughout the course of the field.

And we just happened to be in the middle of the field. And so that was just one of the things that I, when you talk about celebrations, I will still on that streak of just kind of just trying to one up myself, trying to be creative. And so where we were and then looking up, you know, there was a hole in the middle of Dallas, Texas Stadium at the time. they obviously said that, you know, obviously playing in Texas Stadium is where, you know, it's God's country. Everybody loves the Cowboys.

And so I just wanted to try to just find something creative to do. And that's what we thought of. Even my coach, you're like, man, when you score tomorrow, it's like, you know, it'll be great for you just come right here and it's like, you know, show God, you know, who the real story is. And so it was no disrespect by any means, you know, to Dallas Cowboys until obviously right when I had done it. I went to the star and then the second time when I came out, the hit that you were alluding to is that George T. He kind of whiffed me. He didn't really hit me. He kind of whiffed me a little bit. But that was probably, that was prompted by a player two before that. When I was on the gold line and we was running the Garrison, Hearst, we had to play for him. And so I was used in on gold line package. And so I was on the end of the formation. And so obviously, I could have ran, I could have gone out for a pass.

obviously they used me for a decoy, whatever the case may be. And so George Teague happened to be on me. And so we had a run play called. And so when he came up, I just kind of just blocked him. And I basically drove him, which was part of my makeup as a receiver. I brought the physicality, and I just panicked him. And so he was ideal. I mean, I think essentially he was kind of pissed off from that.

So when I went to the start the second time, that was when he felt like, okay, this is, I don't know if he was a second or the first time. It don't matter, but he went out and yeah, he hit me. When you look at these celebrations now in the NFL, do you sort of think to yourself, man, I had a couple of those myself that were pretty iconic? Yeah, I know, like, yeah, I was kind of ahead of my time. You think about what I was doing, and, again, I just wanted to try to have fun with the game. I mean, me scoring touchdowns and me coming up with a different celebration,

that was motivation, honestly, for me to get into the end zone. And I think I've told the story before, like the idea behind me even celebrating in the first place was that in high school, my mom had come to a couple of games. She didn't really know what number I was. She missed a couple of big plays or what have you. And then I played in college. But I always remembered that. And so, you know, playing as a rookie with the 49ers, I didn't crack the starting lineup right away. So I figured, okay, if I score a touchdown, there's no way she's going to miss me.

So I knew that if I scored a touchdown or I made a big play, the cameras were going to be on me. So that's what prompted, you know, the touchdown celebration. So I just tried to have phone with the game. So obviously, like I said, I think a lot of people felt like I was ahead of my time. And a lot of people couldn't grasp, you know, who I was as a person and my personality. And you think about some of the guys that were commentating and analyzing some of the game, some of the analysts, they were old school guys. And so here you have a young guy, young kid who was obviously just, you know, hungry, thirsty

to be in the spotlight, to make big plays. And that was kind of like, you know, my pretty much my makeup. And so a lot of the guys, you know, that were called in these games, they had no idea who I was and what I was about. One of my favorite Terl Owen celebrations was one that I think was, it was so clever that initially, people didn't understand what he was doing and a couple hours later when they did, I think he got into some trouble. That was the week after

the Patriots Jets' scandal of filming had come out, Cowboys are on the road in Miami and fourth down play late in the game. He catches a touchdown to kind of ice the game a little bit. Tio goes over to the goalposts and he's got the football and he starts pretending like he's filming and he's referencing the Patriots video sketch. And at first it took like into the afternoon

before people realized, oh, that's what he was doing. And then some people in the league got a little upset. But that one I've always been curious about because I was like that one. Was that one that just kind of spur of the moment? Or did you made up in your mind? Like, when I score, I'm filming. Yeah, I mean, I had heard about during the course of the weekend.

At that time, I just didn't know, I didn't know what exactly I was going to do. But then, like I said, you know, I did it. And I just did it. And, you know, spur of the moment. You know, so when that time came, you know, I just went into the end zone. Like I said, I didn't, I don't think I had. had anything scheduled or anything playing. So I just went behind just to kind of give everybody, I guess, an idea of kind of what I was doing. Like I said, it took you a minute, I guess, to figure

it out. But you had to be following the story during the course of the week to kind of understand it. So again, that's part of who I am, the creativity. I mean, that's, I think that's one of the things, those, those characteristics and traits of a Sagittarius. So I wanted to ask you, my first introduction to covering the league was 2004, 2005, Bill Parcell's the head coach. You know, I was this young reporter out of Tyler, Texas, and I'll never forget, I'd show up to Texas Stadium. I'm wearing a backpack.

I've got like little curls on and a starch shirt, and I'm in the press conference room, and I go to raise my hand, and my photographer practically tackled me. He said he will eat you alive. Do not ask a question. The next guy that raised his hand was Rick Renner, who you might remember from Fox Sports Southwest,

spiky blotter, and of course Bill destroyed him. that was what it was like covering him as a media member. What was it like being on the team with him as the head coach? I think, I mean, everybody kind of knew kind of how he was. I think he was sort of like he wasn't as charismatic as I thought he would be. But when you look at, I guess, the nature of how he kind of orchestrated or how he, you know, went about his press conferences. I mean, it was always something unique about it.

I mean, it was almost like his answers was like just a disdain for the media. Kind of similar in an odd way, like Bill Belichick, how he has, you know, for the media as well. I mean, he's a lot drier, but, yeah, when I looked at Bill Parcells and how he addressed the media, it was like he always like, it was like he had something out against him. So as a coach, I didn't really know much about him. Obviously, he won Super Bowls when he was the Giants. Obviously, he coached the Jets, I think. But outside of that, I didn't really know what to think of.

And I mean, you know, every coach is different. You know, at this point in time, I've been now with my third, third coach in what, what, nine, nine, ten years now. But I think, you know, going through college, you know, I had three hours. of four coaches, you know, my four years there, three different head coaches out of my four years there. So I was accustomed to like different head coaches or what have you. So as far as Bill, I mean, you know, I was like I said, it didn't matter with me. I mean, I've always been coachable. So it really didn't matter who the coach was as far as, you know, how my talent and the head coach,

how we jailed or what have you. It was like I understood he was a coach. I was a player. And I'm sure that's what he announced me as as a player. He never really said my name, which really didn't bother me. But I just went about my business. So I didn't really think too much of it as far as, you know, was I going to do anything different? My approach was going to be a different way just because he was the head coach. I just wanted to just play football and that was about it.

When it comes to your entrance into the league and a lot of your reputation, in which people say, you know, oh, he's so, you know, egotistical and things like that. You mentioned your football life earlier. And I remember watching that and there was this interesting point early on where everybody's talking about, man, when he got to San Francisco, he was kind of shy and he was actually very, you know, really polite. And, you know, Steve Young said it took till like 1999 before 1998 before you would stop saying sir to him and just say Steve.

And so, and I know you said that that was. is a large part of how, you know, your grandmother raised you and taught you to be respectful. And so for people who look at you and say, well, how can we reconcile that? You know, he's such a big ego-driven guy, but, you know, he's people who talk to him, say, oh, no, he's really kind and he's polite. And you yourself described there. You said that in reality, people don't understand that, you know, you consider yourself to be very humble.

So what would you say about reconciling that for people who don't understand your background and your personality? Well, I think you have to just understand and take it to where we are now with media and how mainstream media and social media platforms has really kind of allowed players to have a platform and have a voice. Whereas, you know, there were some things that happened, you know, throughout the course of my career. Had I had those platforms to really kind of dispel or dispute some of these things, then maybe people will see things differently. But I think people are, if you're not, if they're not aware, you can, you can,

media is very, very powerful. And so they created a narrative and portrayed me in a light that was very negative without even getting to know me. I think, you know, if you look at certain guys, they're viewed a certain way, no matter what they do, they can do probably like the most oddest or worst of things. And like I said, if the media feels like they want to put this person or portray this person in the best light possible, then that's what they're going to do. And it's so funny how the audience and the masses will gravitate to what the media says, no matter what the situation is.

And I've, you know, and I never try to throw anybody up under the bus. But when I try to, you know, compare what I've done to other people, it's basically to compare what I've done versus what they've done. It's not me throwing anybody under the bus. It's basically trying to give your perspective on how one person is viewed versus how I'm viewed. and they've either done the same thing, if not something worse. And so, again, you know, I did a number of interviews throughout the course of my career trying to address certain circumstances or incidents that happened for an hour and a half. But then I realized I gave, honestly, I did myself a disservice because the media then

took that hour and a half interview, edited it, and chopped it up, and then presented what they wanted to resent, you know, to the media, to the audience and to the fans. And then that's when they show those clips and then they have everybody chiming in on those sound bites when I've kind of addressed certain situations or certain issues that really, like I said, that could have dispelled or disputed whatever the topic or the situation was, but it made it even worse when they cut it up and then edited and then portrayed it to the fans. And so it's a hard pill to swallow and understand that, you know, media is very, very powerful. But I didn't allow it to deter, you know, kind of internally who I was as a person.

I didn't allow it to hinder my performance on the field because I realized and understood how my grandmother raised me. And she always told me, like, you know, people are going to think, you know, good or bad about you, no matter what. but always believe in who you are. And if you're true to who you are and honest with yourself and about whatever situation it is, just go about your everyday life, move forward, and don't worry about it. And so that's ideally...

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama,

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Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to. who wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Wreck, my mama want you to wave at her.

What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Actually, what I did, I just kind of just blocked out the noise and just played. Because I felt like, okay, if I went out and I played, poorly, despite whatever was going on, then it was only going to validate whatever they were

saying negatively and however they were criticizing me. It was just going to make it that much worse. So they couldn't really do anything about it because once I went out in football field and I played well, there was really nothing else they could really talk about was my performance. And probably nine times out of ten, I performed very well. Do you design, engineer, build, or maintain buildings in California? Do you want to gain more knowledge about energy efficiency or learn what's new with electrification? Each year, PG&E Energy Centers offer more than 500 free online classes. Get a competitive advantage when you learn from industry experts through live webinars or over 80 on-demand classes.

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Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. You know, you talked about wishing that you had had a platform maybe back then that maybe you might have been able to dispel some of the things that were said about you. What was one of those instances in Dallas where you wish that maybe you had social media so you could have gotten your message out? I liken it a little bit to you. I've gotten to know Des Bryant pretty well here in Dallas. And, you know, Des has really had to deal with social media and social commentary. a lot of people, whether it's wrong or right, he's gotten out in front of it.

And as you said, people sort of chop it up, dissect it, put it under a microscope. And I know that that's been tough for him. And even when he was released from Dallas, he talked about dealing with a lot of depression because of all of that. When you look back on some of those moments you wish you could have dispelled, what would that have been? And do you think it would have helped, given how social media still dissects everything that you say or do?

Yeah, I definitely think it would have helped because I think anybody knows me, they know I'm a straight shooter. If you talk to some of my teammates, my coaches, and even people that have followed my career, they'll tell you, like, you may not have liked what I said, but if you go back and just oversee it, just review kind of some of the things that happened, I didn't lie about anything. It was just, obviously, maybe I was honest to a fault. You asked for an example. Like even the situation we just talked about with me going to the star. My own coach took the liberty to suspend me when the league never suspended me. He was pressured by the media to do something because what I did, I guess, obviously it was unprecedented. Nobody had ever seen it done before, but all I did was a celebration.

I mean, obviously, I went 50 yards, but so what? there was nothing against or wrong with what I did. Could have been deemed maybe a bit excessive? Yeah, of course. But there was nothing, there was no rule against what I did. And so the media, obviously, you know, there was talk of the week for maybe two or three weeks at that point. But my coach obviously, like I said, was pressured, I think, about the media to make something happen. and he suspended me.

And then just to kind of recall or recant, not recant, but kind of just a recollection of some of the things that were said, you know, how he addressed the media on how he found out things of that nature. You know, he said he never, he didn't see me go to the middle of the field. Like there are 70,000, 70,000 fans in the stand. He's a head coach. He's not, he wasn't that busy on the sideline. He only has one job, really,

I mean, he's paying a little bit of attention to the offense. He's head coaching, but he wasn't that busy to say that he did not see me go to the field like neither time. So stuff like that, like I said, it's hard for me to swallow. I think from that point with my relationship with Coach Marriuch at the time, it deteriorated. It never got better. These are some of the things, like I said, when I grew up, you know, my grandmother talked. She talked to me about, you know, and, you know, I see behind Bobby has the Ahmad Arbery sign there. But these are some of the things that I grew up where my, what my grandmother talked about.

When you think about white and black issues, I felt like I was, I felt like I was treated a certain way. Sometimes maybe because I was black or because I was becoming a star and they didn't, you know, he didn't feel like he wanted me to be. you know, in the shoes or in the light of where Jerry Rose. I was, like I said, I was a quiet kid. I just wanted to play football. I wanted to be the best that I could be. I witnessed things that, you know, there were preferential treatment. There were double standards, you know, you know, that were, yeah, there were double standards in that locker room.

And so for me, I always just remember some of the things growing up and listening to my grandmother on how she was. raised and some of the things that she experienced. And, you know, for me, I didn't really say it, say a whole lot. I internalized a whole lot. And that's what allowed me to go out there and play the way that I did. Because like I said, I didn't feel at that time that I had a voice to really dispute or dispel some of those things. And one because I was a young kid.

I was an up-and-coming star. I didn't, I hadn't hit the veteran status or, you know, or really have, I feel like I had anybody to really have my back at that. time to kind of back me up in some of those situations. And that's where I leaned on, you know, I leaned on the shoulders of my position coaches, Larry Kersey for my first three years. And George Stewart, you know, the remaining years. And so, you know, for me, I was just a young kid, you know, just trying to, you know, establish myself in the league, learn from the greatest receiver of all time and Jerry Rice. And like I said, I just, I just witnessed a lot of double

standards in the locker room, unbeknownst to a lot of. a lot of people. And so like I said, I didn't say a whole lot. I just kept a lot to myself. And I just saw how I was being treated. And so I wasn't treated fairly, you know, as opposed to some other guys that were in the locker room that were supposed to be considered, you know, leaders or what have you or hadn't been there as long as I was. But I just went about my business. And that's how I went about everywhere that I went. You know, it didn't matter what somebody thought about me or what they said about me. I knew that I was in. control of my performance. And so that's what I did every stop that I went.

In Dallas specifically, when you talk about some of these instances where things weren't necessarily communicated properly or the entire story didn't always get out, I always think you talked about how much honesty is important to you. And again, in that football life, I know you said your grandmother taught you, you know, always speak the truth, always be honest. that's, you know, one of the high requisites of what you need to be doing. I was always amazed that, you know, when somebody, when the media would come to you with a story where they were trying to, you know, find out a little bit more, you would always shoot it straight and then even sometimes add details they didn't ask for.

Like I remember after the Atlanta game, when DeAngelo Hall said, Tio spat in my face. and there was no video of it anywhere, and Dion asked you about it, I think on NFL network afterwards, and you had, yeah, I did that. He made me mad. And they asked at one point about Todd Haley.

And you said, yeah, Todd Haley and I had an issue. And then you went further and you're like, in fact, I'm not going to be speaking to him. And so, like, you would always volunteer more.

So that's why it always fascinated me in 08 when that story came out about, oh, Tio thinks that, you know, Romo and Wittner creating their own plays and they're cutting him out. And you had always said, you know,

with that story, He said, this is not true. This is being made up. And that always fascinated me because you were always so straight and you always did volunteer more information and say, you know what, no, here's where it is. And you always denied that story. Going back to that story, because I think that was the kind of the turning point

where people were trying to say, all right, his time in Dallas needs to be over. Talk about when that story came out and what really happened and what that experience was like going on for you at the time. Which story you're referring to? The Edwarder story ahead of the Giants game about he said, was dissension between you and Tony and Jason, and I know that you had said that a lot of that wasn't accurate. Well, in terms of them, you know, sitting aside, you know, drawing up plays. No, no, that was pretty accurate. And there were some other guys that witnessed it as well.

Like I said, I'm a very, I'm a very observant person, you know what I mean? And so for me, you know, being a very integral part of the success of the offense. And so again, like I said, I'm not, I know my role and I knew my role. I wasn't a selfish person by any means. Anybody at, you know, regardless of what people may say about me, dude, I'm a team guy. I understood, you know, I understood my role as a number one receiver and what that entailed.

And so, you know, dude, I would, that's not just me catching the ball all the time. That's me really understanding the offense, what we're trying to accomplish. I know that I was a decoy and a lot of Rossboro. I would, I would both off that line as a decoy just as if I was getting the ball. that's just me understanding who I am and what I meant to the offense and the success of the offense. And so, you know, whatever I did, it enabled other guys to flourish as well. We think about some of the running backs getting the ball out of the backfield, you know, creating holes, just my presence on the field that dictated defenses that allowed us, you know, big running,

depending on our opponent. Our running game, you know, was successful because of who I was. in what I did on the football field, the tight ends. They got open and had a lot of space because of what I did, you know, by taking the top off cover two or having people cheat my way. Dude, it's so unfortunate. Like I said, there's a lot of perception about who I was and what I did in that locker room.

But, you know, Marcus Spears said it best, I think a year and a half ago. He looked in the camera. He was like, yo, I was nothing but the ultimate teammate. And so again, nobody's ever said any bad things about me as a player. Everything that you think you know about me is only hearsay and it's coming from reporters. Like if I was that bad of a teammate, then why haven't you heard a number of teammates come out and back or support some of these accusations of the narratives by the media? And so that's what was so unfortunate. it, but again, like I said, I've dealt with it, you know, throughout the course of my career.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves.

Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaders to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host,

and your favorite therapist. Kier Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin, Ross because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth,

or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app.

Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the V. man's or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm doubly talking about crack on day, but literally. But just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys?

This is Clifford Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Clifford Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out.

Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, rec, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Park. Listen to the Clippers show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Like I said, my grandmother, like I said,

the way she was raised, the way I was taught, some of the situation that she's been in her life, I got it. You know what I mean? And so it didn't deter me from really being successful in the football field. Like I said, I just blocked out the noise and still continued it to be who I was. My performance never lacked.

And so if it was such an issue, then you would think that if I was mentally weak, then it would manifest and then obviously it would show my performance, but it didn't. So even the certain situations with Todd Haley, the things that he said or he thought or he felt about me, it was because of media. It was because of the media portrayal prior to me even getting to the Cowboys because they already had this preconceived notion about who I was as a person. So if anything happened, they'd like, oh, okay, this is what the next thing is.

media was talking about. But I wasn't doing anything any different than any other athlete in that locker room. They're going to be disagreements. They're going to be arguments. Okay, I'm one of those guys. Okay, I'm in a prominent position to be one of the top guys on that team. But even just, you look at, you know, the documentary from the last dance, you know, everybody thought Michael Jordan was a jerk, called him arrogant, selfish, this and the other. And I tweet, I said, well, I'm in good company because again, you know, this is this is what you have to deal with when you're dealing with high, high caliber, high productive guys. And like I said, I don't claim to be a jerk by any means. I don't claim to be arrogant, but there are times, like I said,

you know, when I'm in that competitive mode, again, that's what you get. But to say that I'm a bad person, this and another, like I said, it depends on who you ask. But like I said, You've never heard a majority of athletes or even teammates come out and say that I was a certain way or supported what the media has said. Otherwise, then you would have a case, but you don't. Thunderstruck, adjective, shocked and amazed by the power of fun on Carnival. Riding Bolt, the world's first roller coaster at sea. Brian got funderstruck so hard, his 93-year-old grandmother felt it 3,000 miles away in Nebraska, and immediately booked a cruise.

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Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder. And our family bonds grow, too. Because when we disconnect from this, and connect with this. We reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think.

Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. And we're live here outside the Perez family home just waiting for the... And there they go. Almost on time this morning. Mom is coming out the front door strong with a double-armed kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags. daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are

everywhere. Ooh, but mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now, the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag closed, and they're off. Ah, but looks like mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car, and there it goes. Oh, that's a shame. that mug was a fam favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff. Just nail the big stuff. Like making sure your kids are buckled correctly

in the right seat for their age and size. Learn more at NHTSA.gov slash the right seat. Visit NHTSA.gov. Slash the right seat. Brought to you by Nitsa and the Ad Council. So taking this out of the media's hands, give me your highest moment in Dallas, lowest moment, and what you would have done differently.

My highest? Highest, highest. I guess I would probably say my highest moment, probably be the four touchdown games, four touchdown game against, I think, the Redskins. Lowest, lowest. I don't know, I think probably, I'll probably say my last year, I guess, when we didn't, we had an opportunity,

to make it to the playoffs. Well, we made to the playoffs, but we end up losing in the first round. I think that was the playoff weekend where, you know, Tony and I think, Whitton, I think they went on a vacation or something like that. Cabo. Yeah, it was a big deal. And we ended up losing. And, yeah, I mean, they gave Tony a bad rap.

about that because he went on vacation and people, you know, questioned his commitment and all of that. So, again, I think, you know, looking back on it, obviously it's a meme now because I, I went to back for him. And so that, but that's the type of person that I am. And so, and probably don't get enough credit for, you know, I don't even think Tony's ever even spoken on, on me. I think, you know, having his back, I can't even remember. But, but just, you know, I think with what I did just, you know, and I didn't have to do that, but I, but that's just how, that's who I am as a person, you know, and a lot of athletes, they'll tell you like, the locker room is a brotherhood. And so, honestly, that's, that's how I was. And, you know, it's, it's a family.

Everybody, every, if you got a family of brothers and sisters, everybody's personality is going to be different. Nobody's going to be the same. And so that's, that's how I look at the, at the locker room. And so, again, people are going to view my character a certain way and compare it to somebody else and probably compare it to somebody else that came before me or after me. And if you look at on the grand scheme of things and you think about some of the most volatile or most charismatic, you know, athletes, then, yeah, I'll be at the top. But I didn't do, I wasn't the worst. If you think about it, like what did I do actually bad? You know, I think people, question, you know, my celebrations at a time where, again, nobody was really high on celebrations

at that time, but now celebrations are being embraced. Whereas before, it was frowned upon. I got heavily criticized for it. Just think it, you know, had social media been around then like it is and where it is now. Like I said, I'd probably be obviously a fan favorite. I probably have more Twitter followers, more Instagram followers, just with how I engage with the fans and what I was doing on a weekly basis. And so I'm proud of my career despite, you know, the perception and the portrayal. But it is what it is. It's unfortunate that I've had people to talk about me behind my back,

lie about who I was. But it's only a few coaches throughout the course of my career that I really value their opinion and I leaned on them for advice. And that's what enabled me to go out and play at a high level because they were honest with me and they understood what was going on. And if I was so bad, if I was doing something wrong, they would have told me. So that's why I just kind of, I mean, probably people didn't really, they couldn't get me. They didn't understand me because it was like, who is this kid?

Like he just comes out of nowhere. where now, you know, people are starting to say, oh, he's arrogant, he's selfish, it's not any other, but I haven't done anything no more detrimental than any other athlete that have played my position or any other position, for that matter. Again, they just didn't understand me, and they formed an opinion of me because of, you know, private conversations, you know, here and there with a coach or a few players here and there. but like I said, you know, a player here or a coach there that have said or criticized me behind my back, you can't take that for face value and take it to be for the majority of the locker room.

And I felt like that was unfair. So I've always tried to defend myself, but at the end of the day, like I said, I understand the world we're living in now. I kind of understood, you know, the world that I was living in then. So I just had a different perspective and outlook on certain people that I was dealing with. So again, I mean, you know, now doing little pieces like this, you know, will it change people's mind or, you know, cause you to kind of maybe think a little bit different about me? Maybe, maybe not. But again, like I said, just watching the documentary of Michael Jordan's last dance, probably like the last four weekends, not that that prompted me to do anything, but I've already been working on a documentary. in the process of doing my own documentary as well.

So, you know, I think it'll shed light on some of the things that I experienced. I'm going to be open and honest. Not that I haven't been, but, I mean, I'll be more candid. There are a lot more stories that people don't know about situations that I'll shed, you know, light on that, you know, that are unbeknownst to a lot of people as well. So especially, you know, my time in San Francisco. There are a lot of things that I experienced there that a lot of people don't know about. I'll shed, you know, light on certain individuals, coaches, you know, and how I felt

about those things. And why I did or I, why did I, why I didn't do certain things as a result of? It's so interesting. When I listened to you talk, like I said, you know, as a report, you report, certain things. There's other stuff you don't report and getting to know Des over these years. You guys do have a very parallel type of personality, sort of approach, sort of a feeling about the way you were treated in the locker room. If one person did one thing, you were viewed a certain way versus another. And it's kind of fascinating to hear both of you guys talk about these things.

I am curious because his relationship, I wouldn't say was fractured with Tony in the end, but I would say that I don't know if they're barbecuing with each other, if that makes sense. I think that was a little trust that was broken. I'm pretty sure he probably felt at some point in time that, He probably should have spoken up, you know, considering probably where he thought their relationship was. But obviously, Tony didn't feel the same way.

So again, when Des got cut and he started and I started to read some of the things that he were saying, I got it because I had already lived it. You know, there was that pact of, you know, Romo, Witten, and Jason Garrett. Dude, that's the only reason I wasn't there. I had just signed a four-year extension going into the off-season. And then all of a sudden, I get the rug pulled out from under me. Like, I've honestly, I have never had that. I've never known that to happen. It was a shop to me when it happened.

And that's, and again, I go to my grave and I've said it, I haven't shied away from it. You know, Tony was in a position to dispel anything that somebody would have said that would have prevented me from extending my career there or being productive or being a positive asset to that locker room, not even the locker room, but what we were trying to accomplish. He had the power to do that, and just as the same situation the year before in Philly, Donovan had the power to do that.

If he really wanted me to be on that team, he could have spoken up and said so. But I knew. there was a reason why Donovan didn't want me there. So again, you look at the situation in Dallas. How do I play three productive years there? Jerry signs me to a four-year extension. I go into the off-season and I get released. How? Why?

When I had talked to Jerry after that season, and this was right before the new stadium opening, and I remember shortly after the season, that 09 season, And before I went home for the offseason, I was there in Dallas and he called me. He basically just asked me, you know, what did I think about and what do we need to do as a team to get beyond where we had just gotten? You know, obviously the playoffs, like I said, we had a pretty good team. I was injured, wasn't as productive. He basically just asked me to give him my honest assessment.

on what we needed to do to get beyond what we needed to, to get another Super Bowl championship in Dallas. And I felt honored, you know, honestly, I felt like that call showed that he looked at me as a leader in that locker room, sort of like a captain. And so I just basically gave my honest assessment. It wasn't anything negative, but I just gave him my assessment of what happened transpired that year and what we could do.

in the upcoming year. And so that's why we left it. And then fast forward a couple of months. And then, yeah, he comes to Florida. I had a place at that time. In Sunny Al, they had some meeting in Fort Lauderdale. He called my agent up and said that he wanted to meet with me. And so from my agent's perspective or standpoint, he was like,

yo, he just wanted to follow up on him, just want to see how you were doing. He's in the Florida area, which is not in, not in. coming. So I just thought, okay, cool. We're just talking. You know, he's the owner of the team who wanted to see, you know, talk it up with one of his players. And I'm like, all right, cool. So we went there and, you know, little to know that I, that was going to be the last time that I saw him or that was going to be the last time that I was going to be in a 40, in a cowboy uniform. Wow. So have you talked to, you said that was the last time you talked to you talked to, you talked to Jerry. Have you talked to Jason, Tony, or Witten's sense all of us?

that? I've seen those guys. I've talked to Jerry. I've talked to Jerry a few times on the phone or what have you. I think of running to him. But I don't, Tony, I think we may have exchanged maybe a text, if not through some of his friends. I haven't really talked to Jason Whitten. I've seen Garrett out and about a couple of times at some Super Bowl events here and there. And, yeah, I mean, but it's, it's, you know, there's nothing there, you know, and I don't, I don't really take kind to people that, you know, have talked about me or caused me, you know, cause some tension, in a sense. And obviously, obviously caused me to lose my job. You know, there was some financial implications with that, but I just, you know, for me, that's just not how I operate. So, and me understanding that, you know, obviously, Jerry saw enough to. You know, extend my contract, but then in a couple of months, then the rug is, you know, kind of pulled from under me. So it was, it was disappointing. And so, yeah, I haven't really talked to Tony since, really, I think, on a personal level. But, you know, other than that, that's, that's, that's

about it. Do you wish that you did anything differently in Dallas? Do you think there was anything that you could have done or that contributed to some of the angst or, you know, or do you just feel that there was a lot of stuff that was done to you that you had no control over? Well, I thought I did. I thought I was making efforts to do that. When Jason Garrett called us in, you know, for certain meetings or what have you, and I only, and I know for fact, we were the only people in those meetings and the information, the contents of those meetings got out outside of the meeting and was leaked to the media.

That was very unfortunate. So I knew something was wrong then. So that was me. I felt like, you know, me feeling like I was doing the right thing or trying to contribute in a way to make up for really kind of some of the things that I didn't do in other situations in San Francisco and Philly. And that was me being communicative, you know, me talking to the head coach, like really hashing things out or, you know, just being adults, being a man,

you know, being a man about, you know, those situations. And so, you know, and I didn't want to, I didn't want to be a negative in the locker room or be a distraction, you know, with the Dallas Cowboys. And so, you know, those coaches, they stood up in the meetings and they said, yo, if you have any issues or whatever, don't go talk to the media, if you have a problem, whatever, let's keep it in house, let's keep it amongst ourselves. And I thought that's what we were doing. But then, like I said, I know for a fact. I think Bobby has mentioned it earlier about, you know, certain things that happened.

And I knew for a fact that there were meetings that were held that only we knew about, but then the next day or so, the media knew about it. I'm like, how does that happen? And I know the people that were in that room, unless I'm just poor judge of character, I know those other guys wouldn't have said anything. And I know those coaches wouldn't have, the coach that was in that meeting, have said anything. And I think Patrick Crazen has come out and said some of those things because he was in attendance in one of those meetings. So yeah, it was just, it was very

unfortunate. You know, and back to Bobby's question about the whole thing about the plays being drawn up or whatever, even Marion Barber. I mean, I brought it to a certain number of guys where I felt I could go to what I'm like, okay, am I overreacting? Is this something? I'm not making things up. And they saw the same thing. So for me, to say it and then those guys say the same thing and back it up then like why am I telling a lie but I wasn't so even with you know the way that I was used on the football field like in my position like I knew that like said I enabled a lot of guys uh you know to have a lot of success based on what I was doing and so you know even when we went through and broke down plays or what have you um and being

open and honest in some of those offensive meetings um I would tell them like yo like why isn't this guy getting the ball. Why are you throwing here when this guy is wide open? You know what I mean? And it wasn't even me. I wasn't even the guy that was wide open. I'm thinking about my other teammates because, you know, practice habits, like I said, they were transferred and they would translate on the field. And so if you're doing certain things on the practice field, then there's no wonder why, again, you're throwing interceptions or you're throwing into double team coverage because you're doing it in practice and your coaches are not correcting you. And so for me, being a leader on that team, like, yo, like I said, I'm doing it behind closed doors.

It's not me pointing anybody out because, like I said, I make mistakes too. You know, coach corrects me as well. And if I'm not doing something, even if the quarterback sees it something that I'm not doing wrong, I don't take it personally. But obviously, some people felt like they was in a position where they couldn't be questioned. So at the end of the day, like I said, I knew and I know that I was a good teammate, everywhere that I went. Like I said, if that wasn't the case,

why aren't a lot more players coming out and supporting a lot of those things that were being said about me as far as me being a bad teammate? Even when it came to the Hall of Fame, these are some of the things that they were bringing up, which made no sense. It had no bearing on me getting into the Hall of Fame.

That, you know, me, as far as being somebody criticizing or assessing my character as a teammate, that's not part of the criteria for getting in the Hall of Fame. All those things that, you know, that make up the criteria for getting into the Hall of Fame, I checked all those boxes. But then, like I said, they went outside the scope of the criteria and not put me in the first or the second year. I, you know, we've been, I've been around the team for a little bit now.

The last couple years, Jane's obviously covered the team for a while now. And one of the things I always tell people when they, you know, ask me about covering it or being near it is, you know, okay, well, objectivity takes over and you are now, you know, it's, the fandom's gone. It's more of a job now and you're here to objectively cover guys. but when Terrell Owens was with the Dallas Cowboys, that was like 17, 18, 19 year old Bobby. And so that was kind of like the height of my fan. I've still actually got, this is about 14 years old now. It's been run through.

It's pretty tattered into it, but I still got it. And one of my best years as a fan was 07, and that was the year you kind of referenced. There was the middle there of your time in Dallas, and that was the year against Washington where you had gone off. And that was kind of the culmination of like a four-week stretch

where I remember Howie Long said post-game. He said, Terrell Owens is playing like the best player in the NFL the last four weeks because he's just gone on this streak of, you know, running through Philly and New York and then Washington. And that was the, you know, Buffalo year where Nick Folk makes the back-to-back

53-yarders, T-O-Sane post-game. It's the first 106-yard field goal in NFL history, I remember. And, you know, you guys had played really well and were you you thumped the green bay packers on Thursday night football as the two 10 and one teams and it was okay Dallas is the team in the NFC and and and everybody was expecting this is going to be Dallas and this is going to be New England and then you referenced the Giants game came in the playoffs and I was interviewing Greg Ellis a couple years ago and he said that that's

something that he still thinks about and it hurts that he goes you know that was that was the best team I've ever been on that team. could have hung with the Patriots. And that's been a discussion recently on social media I saw. So I'm curious for you. I guess just talk about how difficult that loss was to the Giants, knowing what a good football team you guys had. You'd beaten the Giants twice during the regular season. But also, do you think that you guys who had lost to the Patriots early in the year? Do you guys think you could have given the Patriots a run had you made it to Arizona for the Super Bowl? Yeah, but I think that was part of my concern.

And I addressed it when I left when I got cut is that, you know, Garrett wasn't the guy for the job. I mean, this guy, I think, undermined and kind of undercut Wade Phillips to get his job. He was the offensive coordinator first year. And then if you think about it a few years ago, I guess when he was on the hot seat, and I said he should have been fired, his record was the same as Wade's. And he still kept his job. So why didn't Garrett lose his job?

He didn't do anything or accomplish anything no more. than Wade Phillips did. So that just, like I said, you know, like I said, for me, I don't like the guy. Like I said, initially when I went into it, I thought, you know, I think I remember one of my first times meeting him. Obviously, he had some preconceived notions of me based on what he had heard, what he had read, based on the conversations that we had. And so I just took it, I listened to it, and I took it for what it was.

But I didn't really, but I got it because I just. know that I'm not a bad person. I know I'm a good teammate. I know I was a good player. So like I said, I didn't try to go into a locker room and change my behavior or anything, do anything different. I did what I did when I was in San Francisco. I did what I did. I did the same in

Philly. I didn't do anything different. It's because, like you said, if you have a perception of someone and going into it, then if they show you who you are, then you ideally know who they are. But if that person gives you an inkling of an idea or he does something remotely similar to what he's perceived

as a person, then you're going to actually think, okay, it's going to almost validate who that person is, but I'm a human. I'm not without mistakes, you know, and so. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where sports slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real.

From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience

in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of, of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two

different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me. Kier Gains is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the AIDS. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence.

Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Cliver Taylor the Fourth.

And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to work. wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue of 42.

Hey, Brett. My mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm not going to have anybody disrespect me either. And I haven't really, I haven't disrespected anybody either.

Like you said, I've always been respectful. Steve Young had to get me out of the habit of saying, yes, sir, and no sir to him. That's just who I am and how I was, and I never really deviated from that. But like I said, my teammates can vouch for who I, for who I am as a person. But when you think about that year, then, yeah, I mean, we could have done some great things. I realized me playing the game, understanding how potent we were on an offensively, if we're out there playing and some of the offensive line, I think they've said it.

They're out there calling out our plays before we even break the huddle, then something is wrong. Or we're getting into formation. They already know what we're about to run. Then something is wrong. You have to change. That first year, yeah, with me being there with the weapons that we had, we had, what, 13 and 3?

I was going left and right. We were catching people off going. But then, again, it's just like every year, just like a rookie going to a second year and the second year to the third year. These defensive coordinators, they watch tape. They understand tendencies. They understand what to do and what not to do to take away from the strength of the offense. And so I realized that because I played in a number of potent offense. I played in San Francisco with the West Coast.

I played in Philly. So I knew if you don't have a creative mind. and able to adapt and change week to week, then you're not going to be successful. You know, yeah, all the terminology, the vernacular is somewhat similar or what have you, but you have to change it up a bit. And so that's what we got stagnant with our offense. And so that was my frustration going into my second and third years that we didn't involve

and we needed to do something different. And so that's why we really couldn't advance or be productive. And so the conversation that I had with Jerry going into my fourth year, That was some of the things, those are some of the things that I, that I, that I addressed. It's like, yo, we need to be a little bit more creative with the talent that we had offensively. And that wasn't, and I wasn't saying that just for me to get the ball, I knew I was just a big piece of the pie. When you think about what we had offensively, I mean, we could have played with,

and we did at times, we could have played with the best of the best. But obviously, like I said, it's, you know, it's one thing that to be good on paper. And like I said, there's, there are some other things that are said to be good on paper too, and that's ink, and that's about it. You got to, you got to produce. You can be good on paper, but you've got to go out there and produce and put up a lot of wins. And obviously, for us, offensively, we were putting up a lot of points. But when it counted most, that's when we fell short. And so I wanted to try to break that stigma of Cowboys just getting to the playoffs, but not getting beyond the NFC championship

or even getting past the first or second round. Just as how valuable I was when I went to Philly. I knew that I brought a spark to that offense with what I was able to do offensively and with the weapons that they had, we got to the Super Bowl. Regardless of me not playing in the playoff, two playoff games, but just that swagger and what I brought to the team

throughout the course of the year, it carried on because we had a really smart offensive coach in Andy Reed. He's by far the best head coach that I've ever played for because he got it. He understood that, you know, you've got to take advantage of the weapons that you have. And so I did that.

That was not a time, like I said, I'm sure he'll tell you. I never had to ask a bark for the ball because he knew what he had offensively, with me as a weapon. What grows in the forest? Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest?

Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org.

Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. Adoption of teens from foster care is a topic not enough people know about and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinwiddie host of the new podcast, Navigating Adoption, presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Each episode brings you compelling real-life adoption stories told by the families that live them with commentary from experts. Visit Adoptuskids.org slash podcast or subscribe to navigating adoption presented by Adopt U.S. Kids. Brought to you by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Administration for Children and Families, at council. Look through your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook

world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a windy path that could lead to adventure. And they see you. Their fearless guide through this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. It's kind of deja vu, Bobby, because we've heard Des say a lot of these things, but we also heard Jesse Hawley tell us this about undermining Wade Phillips. And it's, you know, I think when certain people say certain things, you ask yourself, oh, well, were you just not getting the

ball or you sort of dismiss what they're saying? But there are enough people saying some of these things over the years that even though they seem so outrageous that a coach would undermine another coach or that there were certain things that weren't getting done. There is sort of a pattern of behavior here that I do think is sort of interesting for the cowboy fan that if you're following this team and following some of these news articles, they keep popping up. So I appreciate your transparency. I feel like we could have a two-hour discussion with you,

but I know that's not what you signed up for. I do want to ask you, you do sound like you have found some peace in your life outside of football, even though I was in Minneapolis when I first, met you. I was with Nate Burleson and you left the next day ahead of that Hall of Fame announcement. I know that that was tough for you. And it was controversial, by the way. A lot of people couldn't understand that you weren't up there on that stage for the Hall of Fame announcement. But where have you found your piece? You finally got the nod. It seems like you formed this

life now and this piece outside of football. What's T.O. doing these days? I guess It wasn't tough, man Going back to the Minnesota thing I knew I wasn't going to stay the whole entire time And so Just just in a manner in which Like said, I felt disrespected the first year

And then obviously the second year Comes about, I already knew that they weren't going to I just kind of had a feeling that they weren't going to let me in So I just kind of just took it for what it was And so at the end of the day, like I said, you know, I couldn't, you really can't worry about a lot of things that you can't control. And so my fate of getting into the Hall of Fame was in a lot of people's hands. It was in the writer's hands.

And so at that point, I just, I realized, like, the system is flawed. And I realized I probably wasn't, I wasn't going to get in. And so I wasn't going to, you know, justify, you know, anything just by being there. I had done an interview with Dion and I had told him like, dude, I'm not going. He's like, you can't. He's like, yes, you'll be there. But I told him like, no, I just, but I just know that's how the world is. And so I already knew how people perceive me anyway.

So I'm like, I'm not going to justify, you know, anything or appease them just by going there. So I just just left. And plus, I said, I had a basketball game to play. I told him, I told him I told him I was in a competitive basketball league in Los Angeles. I think it was a playoff weekend. And so that really interfered with my basketball. So I was like, this is more important than what I'm going to be doing here on Saturday. At the end of the day, whether I go or I went or I didn't go, that wasn't going to be a deciding factor, you know, whether I got into the Hall of Fame or not.

They already, they already kind of had that in their mind. So, you know, for me now, I think, I guess, I'm at P. I've always kind of been at peace. I've always wanted to shed light on some of the incidents that have happened throughout the course of my career. And I think had I had some of these social media platforms then back then, then I think I would have been in a better situation. And I think people have a better understanding of some of those things that happen. Like I said, it's so unfair that when you look at a lot of the things that happened, I did an hour and a half, maybe two-hour interview. and people only saw maybe five minutes of that.

Those are small clips from that whole interview where I could have, like I said, could have addressed, you know, or kind of just went back or had had some rebuttal with some of the commentary once they put those sound bites up there and then they have this guy talk about it, this guy talk about, this guy talk about, this guy talk about it. And then like I said, they're all commenting on that one sound bite or that clip that obviously that was negative based on what their question was.

So like I said, had I had these platforms, then obviously, like I said, I would have exposed a lot of people. It's unfair. Like I said, these networks get to kind of edit and create their own storylines, create their own narratives, but I think players are starting to be smart about branding themselves and really understanding that they have a voice. But just because somebody says something about you, that doesn't mean it's true or it's factual. But, again, the media is very, very powerful. They know that they have the eyes and the ears of many Americans. And so depending on who's up there talking, depending on their reputation or what have you,

they're going to think that they have the inside scoop or they have the facts. And so it's one of those things. But other than that, I mean, I have – I'm a father now. I realized what I didn't have growing up, I'm able to be that for my kids now, being there, being present. Yeah, and just watching them grow up. And so I've always made myself available to all my kids. I mean, even just sharing, you know, like I said, just preparing myself, like my son and my oldest son is 20. Just even when he was like 13, when he was like 13 or 14, I knew it.

point, I was going to have to have that conversation about the birds and the bees with him. I never had that. But, you know, like I said, I'm, like said, I've had, I have kids by multiple women. So I wanted to at least have that conversation with him to, to have him understand, okay, dad made some poor choices. And I, and I carefully chose my words to not say mistake because you never know how a kid may interpret mistake. You never know.

So I chose my words wisely when I addressed and we talked about that situation. And I think whatever he does from here on out, that's his choice. But I've put him in the best possible situation more so than I was just by having that conversation. I never had that conversation with my dad. I don't think I ever had it with my mom. So for me, like I said, if he goes down the road and obviously have, kids at an early age, God forbid that happens, that's on him. Regardless of what I do, because I'm a grown man, I'm a grown adult.

I have to live with my actions, my choices. So for me, like I said, just to have that conversation with him is a huge step in the right direction and me being a parent and me just being there and offering that, just being a father figure to him because, like I said, I had that conversation with him. I never had that with my dad. Well, I can promise you speaking to your point, you know, obviously this is not live. We edit this down, but we are not going to edit you out of context by any means. I do find it a responsibility when people come on our show and they share their authentic selves and their stories.

And there's transparency to let you talk. It's not for me to have an opinion based on anything that you're saying, but I think there's a natural curiosity that I have as well as the cowboy fans about what did happen. with Tio because I do think that over the years people sort of paint this narrative. And so I do think it's interesting that you are just being so open and honest about things that happened in Dallas. So we thank you for even taking the time today to share that with us. Oh, yeah. What I mean, I think, you know, like I said, I'm on social media a lot. And so obviously, you know, Garrett has been on the hot seat probably with the last two, three years or so.

So again, people started to realize, and even when Des went through his situation, like I said, how is it? Des was saying the same thing that I said. I don't really, I wasn't in the locker room. He started to hear and see some of the things that I was talking about. So at the end of the day, that's all I've ever been is transparent and honest and sometimes honest to a fault. That's, you know, my professional career probably in my personal life as well. But I do, like I said, you know, sometimes honestly is the best policy, especially, you know, in communication, which I've gotten a lot better with, you know, on a business level and a personal level. That hasn't always been my strong suit.

But I think around that 0-7, 08, 9 timeframe is when I started to be, like said, more communicative, a little bit more trusting with certain. individuals. But at the same time, like I said, I realized and I watched how some things unfold, and I watched how certain people are treated versus other people are being treated. You know, like I said, you know, I felt bad when Wade lost his job and they tried to put it on his shoulders that he was the reason that he didn't have the backbone, the coached team. I'm like, what do you mean?

Like, we had some of our best success with him as a head coach. And then, like I said, I heard about, you know, obviously, Garrett undermining him and obviously getting his job. Sorry about that. You're good. Getting his job or what have you. And so, again, I think Wade mentioned it. I think I saw an article, you know, I was one of the first people to call Wade because I felt bad. I felt bad for a guy to, you know, to be the scapegoat of somebody's, you know,

ill intentions, you know, and it was just, it's just, it's, it's, it's sad when, when you, you have high hopes for certain people, you think certain people are high character people, and they're not, um, just to put themselves in the, in the limelight or in the forefront of a certain situation. And, and again, like I said, if you look at Garrett's record versus Wade's, it was eerily similar, you know, so, and he didn't accomplish anything more than Wade did. But for whatever reason. It was almost like this guy had nine lives. You know what I mean? Other than that, like said, I enjoyed my time there. I still talk to a number of guys that was on the team there. So again, like I said, you know, that's one thing I miss about, you know, playing football is the

friendships. And like I said, at the end of the day, you establish their friendships. And I think a lot of people got to see me for who I really was, you know, considering they had basically, based their opinions and their perceptions based off the media portrayal. So I had a number of guys that came up to me like, man, you're nothing like I thought you were. It happened in Philly, happened in Dallas, pretty much everywhere I went. Once they got to see who I was, you know, outside of, you know, what they read or what they heard.

So that's who I was in the locker room. But like I said, if you think about it, anything negative or what have you, that, that you've heard about me, it's been because of the media. Before I let you go, I want to ask you the TikTok videos. I'm enjoying those. It's typically the suburban housewives that are doing it with their children, but you have been posting quite a few yourself. Who got you on a TikTok?

And what's the next TikTok challenge we can follow you on TEO? Man, so I'm with ICM agency as of right now. So I went into their office. Just talking about some branding ideas, just talking about some business opportunities or what have you. And so that was one of the things that was on the table that they mentioned to me about was TikTok. And so I didn't really know much about it, but they kind of told me, they're like, yo, this

is this new platform. Like it's about to hit that's going to be probably bigger than Instagram or what have you. And I'm like, oh, okay. So they're like, man, they're like as creative as you are, charismatic as you are, like, yo, this is this is a platform for you. So I'm like, all right, but I, so I did a little research on it. I didn't end up getting on it at the time.

And then probably like four or five months ago, I ended up establishing an account, but I never, I never used it. So one of my friends, Christina, who's Miss Basketball One, who's, she's a good friend of mine who's on a couple of the first two or three TikToks. She came by during this quarantine time. she had some family about an hour or so away from here. I'm in the Deerfield area near Fort Lauderdale, so she came by, and she was trying to do some other. She's doing some correspondent work for news in Atlanta.

So she's like, yo, I want to come by. Let's do some home workouts or whatever. So everybody was on the whole home workout kick or what have you. So she came by, and that was supposed to be the premise of her coming by. and then we didn't do the workouts right away and then she's like, yo, let's do some TikToks. I'm like, what?

I'm like, I'm not doing any TikTok. She goes, yo, it'll be fun, it'd be fun. So I'm like, all right, cool. So then she started, she did the one hand, two hand challenge and then we did the whole chopper one, the MTV, not the Wild and Out reenactment, some of the guys on that. So we did those two that night,

and then we posted them, and then they just kind of went viral. and so I had fun doing it. So then after that, I just kind of just got, I had to, really, I should have, I should have just come out and just put out a video and just said, you know, I have a problem. And, you know, the best way to get out in front of something, you have to really admit it. You know, let people know that you're at it.

So I literally had to confess and be like, yo, tell my friends, oh, I'm a TikTok addict. I was like, that's what I am right now. So I've had a lot of fun with it. Just a response that I've gotten from a lot of fans, especially with what we're going through right now. I think everybody needed some laughs. And so I think this is what a lot of people don't know or didn't know about me, is that I'm very fun, I'm witty.

People wouldn't know that because of what we've talked and discussed here today is about my character and how the media portrayed me. But I've always been that way. I've been silly. I've been goofy. even her, we had, even after our TikTok, we sat here in about probably like about an hour or two or whatever, and we just chopped it up. And she, she was transparent. She goes, yo, she goes, I didn't know that you were this cool.

She goes, honestly, because I thought you were an asshole. She goes, I didn't like you. She said, when I first saw you, because before I even talked to you, she already, in my mind, she goes, I thought you were just as how they said you were. And so she goes, man, like, it almost got me emotional because she goes, man, she goes, man, they, really done your disservice. You're a man, you're a really cool person. And I was like, yo, I've always been this way. I've always been this way.

So me doing TikToks and other little fun stuff on social media, for me, it's fun. And like I said, I love kids. And just with what we're going through as a country, I think it's needed. And so I have fun with it. And now, like I said, I establish a TikTok count. And so I post on Instagram because I know TikTok is more of a millennial platform. But now, as you've seen with this quarantining, like you said, suburban moms, they're jumping on there with their kids. I've even seen some grandmoms and some granddad's on there.

I've seen some 90-year-olds on there. So it just tells you, like, now, where we are the country, obviously, we need to come together, obviously, you know, have fun, and just love and laugh and have fun with each other. So that's what, you know, that's what it's all about. And so I try to utilize all the platforms that kind of hit the market. So I've been on Snapchat, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Instagram, Live, what have you. So like I said, I'm a big kid at heart. Well, and it is a chance for you to sort of rewrite your own narrative with a completely young generation that is just getting to know Tio as the TikTok star.

And then they're going to feel really dumb when they start Googling and figuring out that you were Tio, the football star for a long time as well. Before we wrap this up, Bobby, you got anything for Tio? I guess one thing I'm just curious about. before you go, because I know you said it and, you know, it doesn't have to go too long, but I know people have asked you about DAC. We're all still waiting on the DAC news to see if he's going to hang around. So what would you say there?

You think Jerry should just pony up and pay him? Yeah, I mean, I was going to allude to it earlier, touch on it, but it's just, it's unfortunate even for his situation. I'm here in Florida, so I had surgery back in December, so I had knee surgery. So I had a rehab session right before this. And so I saw on the ticker on ESPN something about Stephen Jones. He made a comment about, I guess, paying quarterbacks too much decreases your chances of winning. And I'm like, okay, well, where was this some years ago when you paid Tony Romo?

Here we go. This is going to get married. That's a good question. I'm like, but when he makes statements like that and then obviously you don't want to make it a race thing, but but Stephen A, even said it too, it's like, yo, you paid Romo. Why can't you pay debt? What's the problem? Then you come out and make the most absurd statement like that. So what is that?

So what is that saying? Oh, wait. Now we can agree. I'm like, honestly, I'm like, what are you, what are you really saying without saying?

What are you saying without really saying? What makes it tricky? What makes it tricky is T.O. is they paid Zique two years ahead of time at a running back position that all analytic guys will tell you is a, is a position that continues to devalue itself. The passing league now.

And they shouldn't have overpaid him. And they went ahead and paid him. And now you're going to use the same argument for your quarterback. Jack. Yeah, I just don't get it, especially, it's unfortunate for Dak because I've heard people say it and I've witnessed it too. This guy's been nothing but professional and the way that he's going about it. And again, when you play this sport, you obviously, you want to make as much money while you can. And so he's, he was, he was undervalued, I think, and he put himself in a situation where he could do a lot for not. on the Dallas Cowboy, but himself personally and for his family. And for now, for you to come out with statements like that, that's why I don't get why these guys signed that CBA agreement when this is part of the reason why I cringe when they signed it.

It's like, yo, you guys should have addressed some additional issues. if you were going to sign it, why not address health care and guaranteed contracts? Minding whatever else they agreed to, but this is one of the main things that they should have addressed. It's obviously guaranteed contracts and health care. And I say that because if you look at, for example, just like Andy Dalton, the guy that you signed, he was in his last year, I think maybe, I think he may have been his last year with the Bengals, He was expected to make $17.7 million. They cut him, obviously, to whatever the case.

Was it a cap room issue or whatever? They obviously, they're putting all their eggs in a basket with Joe Burroughs. But if this is basketball or baseball, they could have cut him. If they had the guaranteed contrasts like Major League Baseball or NBA, they cut him. He still keeps his, he still gets his 17.7. he still gets his 17.7. But now they knew that he had no leg to stand on. He's disposable.

Cut him. Now he's on the market. Fortunately, you know, he has an opportunity to extend his career, but he's not nowhere near the 17.7 that he was scheduled to get with the Cincinnati Bengals. And this is why I don't understand a lot of these. football guys and why they didn't just leverage what they have, especially because the league is made up of 70 plus percent minority. They could have made a push and put these owners in a difficult situation to put guaranteed

contracts on a table and get it because they were to put them, put their backs against the wall. If they just talk, communicate, just like the NBA. These guys have have a bond in the unity. to with each other and they understand. And even Adam Silver as a commissioner of the NBA, he knows that these players, like the league wouldn't be what it is now without the players.

There's no unison, there's no bond like that with the NFL and the players, these owners and these players. These players have to understand. And ideal, I think the owners have these players thinking that we need them more than they need us. And I think once they're raised, wrapped that around their heads, then like I said, things will get done. But like I said, they've already signed this extension. But like I said, if they pull up together and say that we're not

planning and put guaranteed contracts on the table, they'll get it. Well, I love that we have access to you. And like I said, that you have given us over an hour of your time today, which is more than I ever would have expected you to give us. We hope that we can get you on the show again. And I think if people are interested in talking to you, they need to go check out your podcast. because it sounds like you've got a lot to say. And I feel like there's a lot of people that would listen. So go ahead and plug that real quick for us, D.O. Oh, yeah.

We have a podcast with a good friend of mine, Matthew Hatchet. He played about 10 years in the league. But I think most notably, I think he played for the Minnesota Vikings. And so he's a good friend of mine. He kind of says it how it is too. So we have a great chemistry. We've known each other for a number of years. And so we've partnered up and come up with our podcast

and it's called Get Your Popcorn Ready with T.O. and Hatch. And so we have about probably, what, 14, 15 episodes in the can now. So, you know, we just want to think we're going to release one tomorrow in the next couple of days or so. This is a fun one. I was looking forward to this one. It's with my version of the Big Three before there was a Big Three when I was with the San Francisco 49. So it was myself, Jerry Rice, and JJ Stokes. So Matthew Hatchet played with the Vikings

And so obviously he played with Chris Carter And I think Jake Reed and Randy Moss And so he tried to say that they had the first big three Or version of the big three before there was us And I'm like, Hatch, you wouldn't even part of it. I'm like, you know, nobody even knows who you are I give them a hard time all the time. I'm like, yo, the only people,

the only reason why people would know who you are. And that's because you're on my podcast. Yeah, we're sharing this thing, but I said, but they don't even know who you are. They got to Google you. We had to create an episode, we had to create an episode just to introduce who he was. But yeah, so yeah, but that's that. We have a great dynamic. We kind of go back and forth with each other. But it's been fun. And I think a lot of people over the years, even like some, probably like four or five years ago, people wanted me and asked me about doing a podcast. And I didn't really think about it. And then I'm like, man, you have a lot to say and people listen to you, just not the other.

And then I was like, yeah, so I just wanted to kind of take advantage of, again, one of those platforms that's out there. Again, like I said, you know, you think about the, obviously the ones that I mentioned Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, now TikTok. But again, that's what now. Now, podcast, you know, everybody's doing podcasts now. So we've had some very good and interesting guests, you know, from Jamil Hill, Michael Strayhan, Brea Murph.

Eddie Murphy's daughter. We had a skater on them, Manny Santiago. He's looking, I guess, they're going to put skating into the Olympics. So he may be, you know, making it to the Olympics. So, I mean, we've had a number of guests from,

yeah, Adrian Gonzalez that played with the Dodgers. I think the socks, Boris Kojo. We've had a lot of great guests on. So it's fun. And Kristen Bell does the whole mom-splining thing, I would totally tune in for a podcast of Tio talking birds and bees. What about you, Bob? You've got a young son.

He needs to hear some of this. And Tio's on cameo. So I may just hire Tio on cameo to go ahead and give my kids birds and the bees talk. Like I said, another platform. You got cameo. Yeah. There's another one called Star Sona. So there's all these platforms.

Like I said, you know, I'm very fortunate to have had the career that I, did. Obviously, a number of these, the influx of all these social media platforms, like said, you know, I wouldn't be able to do a lot of these things if it wasn't for what I did on the football field. I wouldn't be able to brand myself and understand the opportunities that I have created now because of such. So I'm very grateful, blessed. You know, I know you talked about, you know, me being at peace. But yeah, I mean, I just realized that, you know, early on, you know, Back in 96, when I was drafted out of Chattanooga, I had no idea that I would play beyond the collegiate level. And then, yeah, I mean, then you fast forward some years later, 24 years later, here I am, I'm a Hall of Famer.

So it just tells, I guess it just tells and gives people hope and inspires people that, you know, like I had it on my shirt. You know, you got your desire, your dedication, your discipline. you're able to accomplish and achieve anything in life. And so those are some of the three Ds that when I reflect back on my entire career of how I got to where I am considering third round, 89th pick. And me personally, I had no idea that I would have become the receiver that I became or the athlete for that matter. It just shows you if you have a desire, and I think everybody has that, you know, even you guys.

if you have you couple it with dedication and discipline you're able to achieve anything in life well we achieved you as our ultimate guest tio and we started this podcast like you colin coward came to us and we both were like there's a lot of podcast out there but we realized that cowboy fans love this sort of content our dream guest was tio i was a huge fan of yours as is bobby growing up but i've become even more appreciative of you after your time with us so thank you so much for jumping on this one with us. Well, absolutely. I mean, obviously, like I said, I owe you not. I mean, I'm comfortable, like I said, you know, I didn't even know we had gone over an hour, but I feel bad about last week. I knew I said we were supposed to go on last week, but I'm glad.

I'm glad it wasn't live. But yeah, but yeah, I mean, like I said, you know, this is no problem. I think, you know, to obviously, for you guys to think of me as a dream guest, that's almost like as you know I'm on I'm on one of these sites where they said you know who's your who's your dream dinner guest and people always you know nominate Obama and and all these high people like Oprah and Michael Jordan so for me to be you guys a dream guest I feel like I'm in great company oh my God my dream dinner party is just to get him and does in a dinner party now that would be a fun dinner party

Oh my God. Who is that? You and Des Bryant. I would love to put you two on a dinner party. Des T.O. And then the third party at the dinner, I want to be Jason Garrett. Oh, my God. Okay.

We're going to leave you with that one. Oh, my God. Thank you so much, T.O. We appreciate it. Absolutely. Thank you guys for having you. All right. We just continue to stack the Ws here on the Boys and Girl podcast because my boy,

Bobby Belt got us another guest for our next episode who's got clear eye vision. Yes. And if that's not enough of a hint for you, who it is, it's Jalen Smith. Maybe we can ask him about all this stuff that like Georgia Loca and Clay Mac and everybody's been saying about the defense and then some of those things. We'll have to get his take on that. That will be a fascinating one. We'll see you next time. Whether you're a student interested in green energy, looking for a great new career or a seasoned building professional who wants more knowledge about energy efficiency. Here's your opportunity to fuel your future. PG&E's Energy Centers offer more than 500 free online classes.

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Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kare Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

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