The Herd with Colin Cowherd - 'Boys and Girl - The Defensive Effort Debate; 4 Week Team, McCarthy Eval with The Athletic's Bob Sturm

Episode Date: October 8, 2020

On today’s episode of the 'Boys and Girl Podcast, Jane and Bobby ask whether or not the Cowboys have an issue with effort and heart. Plus, Bob Sturm from The Athletic stops by to assess the Cowboys season through four games. Follow Jane and Bobby on Twitter and subscribe to get all the latest inside information from two of the most connected people in the Cowboys’ community. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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a Cowboys community with the inside scoop on the Dallas Cowboys. Now coming straight to you from the Lone Star State, here's Jane and Bobby. Well, welcome into another edition of the Boys and Girl podcast, and look, as much as I love to be talking about a Cowboys win to the Browns. Instead, it feels like things are imploding here in Dallas. So if you're not local and you're watching the national shows, It does feel that bad here in the DFW. Metroplex, a historically bad defense now is something that the Dallas Cowboys can hang their hat on, Bobby.

Yeah, this is about as rough as I've ever seen them play. We'll have Bob Stern from the athletic on here soon. We'll ask his thoughts on what he sees from the defense. But I think overall there's kind of this universal sense from, like you said, national pundits and local pundits and even hear some of the players talking like to Marcus Lawrence after the game. This is just a really bad defense. This is about as rough as it gets.

And it's not just a talent deficit. It's, you know, as a lot of people were calling out this week, it seems to be an effort deficit at a lot of points in the game. I don't typically like saying whether someone is bad or good. But last week, I said this just isn't a good football team. And if you pop in the tape, people smarter than me will tell you that. Here's my colleague, Daniel, am I at the NFL network.

Yeah, I'm blown away with what Jalen Smith is saying about needing to simplify. Let me show you some examples of what's going wrong with the Dallas Cowboys. And these plays have nothing to do with alignment or scheme or anything of the such. It doesn't have to do with simplifying anything. Let's look at Jordan Lewis and let's look at Jalen Smith on this play right here. Jordan Lewis is going to get caught a little bit in between here. He doesn't know what you're underpass. He gets locked up.

He's going to actually get thrown down to the ground, which is going to end up tripping the safety right here. Take out two guys. You've got two guys in the secondary who are on the ground. Now, let's look at Jalen Smith. If you see him go down here one more time. Look at Jalen Smith. He's clean. Just scrape across and make the tackle.

Use your eyes. Get there. He doesn't get there. He's on the ground, but he's not alone. He's four of his team or three of his teammates are on the ground as well. You've got four Dallas Cowboys on the ground here. That has nothing to do with your scheme or how complex it is. That's just playing football.

Now let's look at Alton Smith up here on the top. This is going to be a reverse coming his way. You've got a tight end who's inside him. Now, his eyes are in the backfield to see this reverse action. You've got a tight end who's trying to pin you and seal you. You cannot get sealed by a tight end if you're old. Smith. Show a little effort and fight through this.

Get on the outside, force this back in. And if nothing else, show me effort. He doesn't give you that either. Jalen Smith on the backside. I tweeted this out and asked if he's hurt because he's moving right now like he's got a piano on his back with absolutely no effort from the backside whatsoever. Then how about this call? You got a defense of the coordinator? He dials up a little corner blitz here from the short side of the field.

Hey, we hit the jackpot. They're going to run right into the blitz. This is a tackle for loss. Except Darylurley doesn't even look at the running back, runs right by him on the way to Baker Mayfield, showing absolutely no awareness and no instincts. You can't dial it up any better than this to get a tackle for loss. And here you end up getting an explosive play.

I'll at least give him credit. He showed some effort to turn around, get on his horse, and go make the tackle. But this is an effort, this is an effort issue, and this is a lack of talent issue. Don't tell me about this is way too complicated because those are simple, simple mistakes. An effort should never be excused.

That was a horrible effort by the Dallas Cowboys defense in this game. To give up 300 yards, you've got to earn it, and they did. All right, one of the players that he's brought up is Jalen Smith, who of course got the extension in the wranglings as it related to Zecchio Elliott trying to get his. I still argue that that was a missive from Jerry Jones. saying, look, the door's open. When you want to make a deal, here's a deal. And then, of course, he gave him access to feature the clear eye view,

sunglasses or glasses in the stadium, something that Jaywin spent a lot of time at his press conference talking about. I find it curious that people in the front office and the coaching staff are so reluctant to at least look at the tape and see a lack of evidence. effort there, Bobby. I don't know what to make of that. I get why Mike McCarthy wouldn't necessarily do it or Mike Nolan, since this is a new team, I do believe in Mike McCarthy's assessment, you've got to be careful about calling out the effort of professional athletes, especially when, you know, you're so new with this. But if I'm the guy that wrote the check, as Jerry has told us

before, he's earned the right to do these things. I don't know why you wouldn't feel the need to at least address it. No, I mean, there is a, it feels like there's a little bit of a tip towing around, and I don't know what that is. I don't know if that's, they're concerned about Jalen's mental makeup, his ability to handle criticism. I don't know if it's, they don't find it would be productive right now to criticize him. But actually, we can play these two clips back to back here. This is Mike Nolan addressing Jalen Smith's play so far. And then, uh, Jerry Jones talking with Sean and RJ on 105 through the fan. Hey Mike, what do you, what do you think has led to Jalen Smith struggling a little bit,

whether it be, you know, over pursuing in the run game or past coverage or just his game in general? You know, this is the honest truth. I don't know why Jalen takes the criticism he does because he's a good football player. I mean, he plays extremely hard. I think he has improved. and I don't, I mean, look, I'd be the first to say I'd call it like I see it, I always do. But Jalen, look, nobody has played a perfect game for us thus far, and I don't think they will. And naturally, yesterday, as bad a game, was it certainly no one played a winning grade performance.

But as far as Jaylin goes, look at, he's been, he may not, we grade guys a lot of times in losing effort, winning effort, or just did your job. and thus far I can't say that he's had a game of the four that he's had a losing effort. I think all of his games have been either do your job or a little better. And so, you know, again, I'm not, I think he's doing all the things we're asking of him, or at least trying to do. And I believe he's just going to keep getting better as the year goes along. Jerry, Jalen Smith's been, you know, kind of getting beaten up pretty good by the fans on social media.

How have you viewed his performance over the first quarter of the season? Well, I think Jalen, you're talking about Jalen Smith? Yes. Yes. Oh, I think Jalen Smith has been courageous. I'll use that word right there in his performance. And I think that significant are changes on defense. And you think about his role in quarterbacking, making a lot of the calls and doing a lot

lot of the mental aspects that the team needs to have done at his position out there, then you can give him reasons why. I think it's safe to say that he has not had a losing effort. We've lost some games, but he has not had a losing effort in an effort that won't get you beat. He has not had a losing effort. He'll give you everything he's got, and we've got players that will do that for us out there and he certainly's got the talent.

I'll say with that question, he has the talent to be the middle linebacker on a winning championship team. So, yeah. What's curious about all this, Bobby is remember last year we brought up the, we heard about a Jalen Smith situation where he was getting dressed down by a member of the coaching staff and that coach was dressed down for dressing Jalen down. What is that? Are we missing something?

I know there are some members of the media who also have come to his defense, but I would say across the board, people that don't have an emotional attachment to Jaylan. And look, as much as we don't like to introduce Spice and a report, of course, she form relationships with certain people. I'm a little hard pressed to criticize Rod Marinelli,

and I'll be the first to say that because of my relationship with Marinelli and his family and just my conversations with so many players about why they play. hard for him and what he was like behind closed doors. But I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't get it. No. Very defensive when, and I'm saying Jalen, I'll use the word passive aggressive.

I think that's a better word to describe. When you say anything about his leadership, his role, there was a press conference couple weeks ago when I was trying to get clarity on with Layton Van derrush out. who's calling the place, are you switching positions? It's very passive aggressive in the answer in that. Yeah, and I don't know if it's, again, if it's some sort of issue where the Cowboys feel like, you know, psychologically speaking,

he plays worse under criticism. And so they're not going to be a part of that. Or if they think that he came back from what should have been a career ending injury. Right. I would think that he's a guy that benefits from adversity or benefit from being told he can't do something. So again, I don't have a sports psychology degree. I haven't played the game.

I'm not an expert in tape. But just human nature, I would think this is a guy who thrived in being told he couldn't do something. So maybe if you saw that that worked before and got him to do something that doctors told him he couldn't do, maybe just tell him that he's not as great as he thinks he is and see if that inspires him to rise to the occasion. Yeah, like you said, I may be understanding new coaching staff trying to handle it a certain way. But even still, that Mike Nolan clip is very distressing to me because he says they grade on three levels, you know, winning effort, losing effort, or just did your job. And so far through four games, they say that Jalen hasn't graded out as a losing effort.

Okay, well, Mike Nolan, you're either lying or your system's broken and you're, you know, past your expiration date and you don't need to be calling defenses. the NFL anymore because Jalen Smith has not been a good football player. Daniel Jeremiah showed you and he talked about it in that clip that we played earlier. The eyes don't lie. The tape doesn't lie. There was zero effort. I get when you feel like it's kind of like remember whenever no one had a problem calling out Ezekiel Elliott's effort against the Broncos a couple years ago. Remember that? He didn't chase after his guy. Like he didn't try to he didn't try to tell he just gave up. Why are some people having a problem calling that out here?

I don't know. I mean, it does feel like the locker room is handle, like the different sides of the ball are handled differently by the coaching staff and by ownership. Like there's a little bit more of a stern hand with the offense. And then the offense seems to be made up of, I guess more mentally tough football players with Dak Prescott and Ezekiel Elliott and Amari Cooper and guys like this.

And then you look on the defense. defensive side of the ball and there does seem to be kind of this, you know, gentle holding of the hand with a lot of these guys. And I- Sula doesn't strike me as a gentle holding of the hand guy. Maybe not, and maybe not from him. But I mean,

in terms of the higher levels, it seems like that's the way they're handling it with Mike McCarthy and Mike Nolan and Jerry and Steve. Steven's saying, we have the guys here on campus. We're not going to look to make any moves. That's ridiculous. If you think this personnel can win you games or when you games in the playoffs,

Stephen knows better. Another thought. I hate to cut you off. But I'm thinking about Rod Marinelli being on the football field and how he would bark at those guys and you would be in their face. Mike Nolan's up in the booth.

It's very Scott Lenehan in his final year. Are you detached up there? And even if you look up in the booth when they had those cutaways, he's sort of leaning over, scratching his head, looks a little as confused as we do. And he doesn't strike me as the guy that really gets in your face.

I feel like some of these guys need that. Yeah. I mean, I think that was, you had said it at the time after the McCarthy hire that when you talk to some people that they said that there was, the idea was a little more discipline or a little bit more tough love. That's one of the things they liked that they thought McCarthy would bring. So it is interesting that Mike Null,

which I think it's funny because Baronelli was considered, I think, kind of the perfect blend of that. He was like the tough love parent who would get in your face or ride you pretty hard. But everybody to a man, like, loved him on that defense and viewed him as like a father figure. It's called respect, Bobby. Yeah. We want to talk tough love. We want to be told that we're better than what we're giving.

We want someone to challenge us to rise to the occasion. I don't know. Again, it's hard for me to even make some of these assessments because in this COVID, we've had such limited access to actually talk to these players off to the side or talk to these coaches off to the side. And that's what really I think allows us as reporters to bring these nuances to our reporting is you are talking to so many people. It's hard to ask those questions in a Zoom virtual WebEx type call. So it really is hard to understand, especially when players are being told don't respond to reporters' text. It's hard to get a real sense of.

of what the hell's going on in there. Right. And I mean, I think that's the thing. I think that there's, you look across the border. And I mean, remember, this is largely an entirely new coaching staff. This isn't just a new head coach. And so these are players who were used to being with certain coaches. Now every single position group is going through a learning curve and a get to know you period. And, you know, I think it's just showing that it's been a tough blend so far.

And I know McCarthy doesn't like the suggestion that they're, they're not giving a lot of effort or they lack heart or whatever else. But I mean, it's hard to look on the field and see that they're responding to this coaching staff right now and that they're giving them the effort. In fact, we can play the clip right here. Troy Aikman was another one in addition to Daniel Jeremiah who criticized their effort this week. So we'll actually play the Aikman clip first and then Mike McCarthy on Monday talking about how he would be careful if you were an outsider to question the team's effort.

I just didn't think the effort was there. I mean, I didn't see one guy on defense that I'd say had a good game. And the last touchdown that O'Dell Beckham scored when they'd cut it to three points, they had all the momentum. If they make a stop there defensively, they probably win the game. I don't think Cleveland would have stopped Dallas. And they had a chance to make a play. But even when Alden Smith wasn't able to make the play in the backfield,

there's a point where if you stop the film, you would say there's no way that this is a touchdown. And it was poor. And that's one of those things that are on film for everybody to see. I mean, for the next four weeks, anyone who is playing the Browns will see it, and anyone who's playing the Cowboys will see it. And then anyone who wants to see, okay, well, what did the Browns do

that gave Dow so many problems? Or would it, you know, he ought to be embarrassed as a player to put that kind of performance on film that that's going to be seen by your peers for the rest of the season. Is the effort in Watt, too, there, or is that clouded by the end decision because they don't understand the scheme? Well, I think like anything, you know, and, you know, the word confidence has been thrown around, and it's, you know, there's spots of the game where we didn't play with great confidence.

You know, I think you've got to be real careful when you start challenging professional athletes about effort, especially from a distance. You know, we don't have an effort issue. I mean, if we had an effort issue, that game would have been over, you know, in the middle of third quarter. When you mentioned that you've got to be careful about challenging professional athletes' effort, is that more because you don't know how they'll respond or because you think there's usually something that leads to issues beyond effort?

Can you elaborate on that, please? Yeah, maybe the word, maybe I used the wrong words. I was, what I was saying, I think, you've got to watch if you question their effort, you know, from afar. I mean, I'm on the sidelines. Our issues yesterday were not effort. I wasn't talking about me challenging them. I mean, it's written at the top of my job description and job responsibility to challenge everybody in football operations.

So, yeah, maybe there's a misuse of words by me, but I was talking about questioning because I didn't see effort as an issue in yesterday's game. So I don't know. there seems to be a little bit of sensitivity there, I think, on Mike McCarthy's part. And it makes me wonder if,

you know, he's totally comfortable. You know, it's one of these methinks he doth protest too much. Like, it makes me wonder if he knows this is an issue and he just wants to deal with it internally and he doesn't want to vet it through the media. I will be the first to say that he's been putting it in a, in a tricky situation.

The coaching job in Dallas is unique. You're supposed to be a, politician and a diplomat. You're also supposed to meet exceedingly high expectations year and year out, not dissimilar from the University of Texas and my longhorns. We've drawn comparisons there a lot. You do have a number of key injuries that we've seen injuries in Dallas, but not like this. I mean, we're talking starters decimated at the linebacker position.

At least you had Layton to sub for Sean Lee or Sean Lee to sub for late Van you are literally on an island for the next couple of weeks. At cornerback, your two starters decimated and you have your rookie and your backups out there. Defensive line, you've got so many new faces. On your offensive line, you have two rookies playing there. You lost your tight in. And now you've got another tight in with a little bit of an injury that you're dealing with. So when I look across the board, it's hard to overcome those things.

But also, I don't think that you can negate the importance of teams. team building and chemistry and trust and buy in. So I think this is going to be a difficult year for the Cowboys. I sense that it was going to be heading into this, just given that I thought with COVID teams that had continuity in their staffs, which is what we're seeing, continuity in their roster, which is what we're seeing. We're seeing success for a lot of them sustained success,

not just these one-off type games like what we saw with the Browns and Kevin Stavansky. But I do think that this is going to be, a lot of growing pains and a lot of pain this year. I do think the bright spot, though, is you're getting a lot of these young guys out there. They're getting real experience, which has been a knock on this team in the past. You've had a lot of veterans that have been there, you know, the tight-in position specifically. Cornerback, too, if you want to bring that up, you haven't had a lot of newness there and you haven't had a lot of depth. So as tough as this is to watch, maybe this will translate the next year.

I know it seems really early to give up on this team. and I know that it's the NFC least, but I just don't have a lot of confidence in this team. And I think some of this goes to that mental makeup. And if they lose to the Giants this weekend, it's going to be bad if they lose to the Giants. Because then you got the Cardinals after that. Yeah, and I don't know that you're going to,

Kyler Murray may rush for 300 yards all on his own. He may equal with the Browns did. But I mean, I want to run something by you. I'm curious for your thoughts on this. We've talked before about how important the mental makeup is to be a Dallas cowboy, how much the cowboy's value for players, understanding the weight of the star and understanding what it means to be a cowboy.

When we interviewed Caleb on Chase-on before the draft, he talked about that and said that, you know, it's a true test to be a cowboy because some guys get there and they flourish and other guys, they kind of just collapse under the weight of what it means to be a cowboy. And I... He invited it, right? As I remember, he wanted to welcome it

and ended up in Jacksonville. He ended up in Jacksonville, saw him a couple weeks ago. I know. It's a, I mean, I think everybody's happy with C.D. Lamb, but I was bummed that K. Levant Chesson couldn't be a cow. I'd like both of them here. But to that point,

I wonder how much of this is also just Mike McCarthy's adjusting to being a cowboy. And Mike McCarthy's adjusting to what it means to have the weight of the Dallas Cowboy star and the sort of attention here. And he's having to. adjust to his coaching style and dealing with personalities and realizing that he's going to have to do some of it within the media and he's going to have to do it with more attention being put on how he's handling his players instead of wearing Green Bay, he probably could handle some locker room issues a little more privately and a little more quietly.

You know, to that point, I had a conversation with coach a well back and I forgot what the storyline was, but the response to me was it's not really a big deal. And I said, with all due respect, coach, in Dallas, it is. It's a big deal when it's the backup running back. It's a big deal when it's, you know, I think how many discussions we've had about this just offensive line in the fourth and fifth guys as it relates to personnel. When I go and cover other teams, you just don't get into the weeds the way you do in Dallas. So it is a big deal. And there is, Sammy Watkins is another perfect example. I was told he did not come here from a very reliable source because he didn't

want the attention that came with Dallas because for all the attention you get with Kansas City and the fact they're Super Bowl champions, the magnifying glass isn't on them as much. And look, some of this is on Jerry Jones. He puts a target on it on this team's back, right? Yeah. But he puts the target on his back by talking to the media, being in the media a lot. And that's what allows your team to be a billion dollar franchise. So you remember last year during OTAs when Randall Cobb stood up, Randall Cobb stood up to talk to the media for the first time. and when he got to his locker, he looked back and his eyes like popped out of his head

when he saw everybody at his locker and he was like, oh my gosh. And somebody says, yeah, they said, is this a little more. They said, is this more than Green Bay?

He goes, this is a playoff scrum in Green Bay. And so, I mean, that caught Randall, Randall Cobb off guard about like, oh my gosh, this attention.

And I think Randall Cobb, to be fair, he handled it great. I still am disappointed. Randall Cobb's not back. I think that this locker room specifically could use Randall Cobb again this year. But, And look, say what you will about Jason Witten.

They could have used him in a coaching capacity. I know that there was some speculation that Mike McCarthy even passed on that as a possibility. I keep thinking they need to figure out a way to get Sean Lee on the coaching staff. Think about the leadership this locker room lost, though. Travis Frederick's gone. Jason Witten's gone. Randall Cobb's gone. Byron Jones is gone.

They lost a lot of guys in one-off. See, Robert Quinn was somebody who, who, who, got a lot of credit for what he was doing in the locker room. Say what she will about Michael Bennett. Michael Bennett came in and did some good things in the locker room. And so, I mean, they lost a ton of really important glue personalities within that locker room. And again, with how much importance the Cowboys put on what it means to be a cowboy and the attention that comes with a cowboy, losing leadership that much of it in a locker room, I think has a

magnified effect and a bigger effect when it happens to Dallas than it does in other places. And I think that there's still, you lose all that leadership and then you lose a certain way that you were used to doing things with the coaching staff and certain norms and practice routines and things like that. I mean, there's a lot of growing pains here that the Cowboys are going to have to go through that don't even have to do with X's and O's or scheme or anything else. That just have to do with, you know, chemistry and logistics and then, you know, a lot more psychological growing pains, I think, than actual. football growing pains. Which is where Jason Garrett actually excelled. I mean, if you think about it,

was he the best coach for this team? We can dispute this for years. But I think psychologically, and while the message might have been a little muted in this final year, I saw a player still day in and day out show up for Jason Garrett.

And he never got too high. He never got too low. And I think that's the beauty of Dak Prescott, is that something that he wholeheartedly subscribes to? Still, I do find it very interesting that Mike McCarthy in a short time here, got the game ball for their first win, and you still, you hear a guy like Dak Prescott say, losing these games hurts, but it hurts more when you disappoint your coach. So there has been a buy-in there.

I just don't, I think the one buy-in we're not seeing, I don't believe these players believe in Mike Nolan at all. that's an issue. And for Jalen to come out and say what he said as early as he did, I might say that I got to be careful when I say this. It felt to me like a little bit of a lack of respect when you've got a new defensive coordinator and you say how he can better do his job.

Yeah, now to be fair also. And that just tells me that it. To be fair to Jalen, that was a question that was directly asked of him to, was Jalen, do we need to simplify? And then he just answered. And so, I mean, it wasn't something that he, just to give him a little leeway that, you know,

he may have just answered something poorly, not knowing how to answer that question when it was directed to him. It wasn't something that he just went off on his own and said, I think we need to simplify. But do you realize how detrimental that statement is? Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.

I'm not, yeah. I, I, imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'll say it. Yep, that's me.

Cliver Taylor the fourth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life. mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations,

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I mean at this point Mark this is the second episode where we've discussed crack so I'm starting to see there's a through line We also have AIDS on the table right now so

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on the IHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark.

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Open your free, our heart radio app, Search learn the hard way and listen now. I'm saying. Broadcast boot camp. He knows. Yeah, it's not a great answer. It wasn't a great answer to give. But I am saying that I will give him a little bit of slack, not completely, but I'll

give him a little bit of slack by just saying it was something that was asked of him and he may not have, you know, had the best answer prepared. But as we look at this and we look at the differences, as you just referenced to Jason Garrett and Mike McCarthy, somebody who knows a lot about both of those guys. and can speak to a little bit is Bob Stern from the Athletic, and he joins us next. It's no longer about answering the most emails or pulling the most all-nighters.

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Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. joining us now is Bob Sturm. Bob is co-host of the hardline on 1310 the ticket in Dallas from 3 to 7 Monday through Friday. And he also writes for the athletic covering the NFL with a particular focus on the Dallas Cowboys. And if you're looking for him at the next cubicle over, you're not going to see him because he's not some dude at the next cubicle over. And you can follow him on Twitter at Sports Sturm. Bob, how you doing? I am great. What an honor.

This is awesome. I check you guys out. So I know all about how this thing works, I think. Yeah, no. A lot coming from like one of our ticket guys. You know, for a lot of us that grew up in the market, it's a big deal. Like, I remember when I first met Corby Davidson and Gordon Keith and, I mean, Riner, all those guys.

And there is sort of a, it's, you can't have a fan boy fan girl a little bit. So we're honored to have you on the show. Well, thank you. No, when I first came to town, you know, still in the triplets era, I guess. But I joined these guys and they were already number one. And I was 26 and terrified. And, you know, it was like batting ninth for the Yankees.

But I guess the longer you hang around, the more you become one of the old guys that you used to wonder how somebody could be that old. So time is a flat circle or something like that. Yeah. I'm turning 40 next month. I feel you. I often wonder what happened in this last decade. Times does start to see.

speed up. I can confirm that. Yes, absolutely. It's distressing. I got to say, you know, there was, I don't think there's any better power like display of the ticket than the fact that when Reiner retired at the end of last year, that, uh, even on ESPN national like Will Kane does a whole three minute tribute to a on the air in Dallas is, you know, basically giving a shout out to the other station there. But, uh, that, that is the power. Everybody knows the ticket. Everybody knows what they're doing there. Well, and if you're in my business, which is our business, a lot of people have really long resumes because you've got to bounce around a lot. So the fact that I've been able to, you know, join a team that still existed 22 years later is really exciting. I'm quite

pleased about that part for sure. That is as hard as I can attest. It's very hard. See, that is excited. When it's not so exciting is just about anything to do with the Cowboys on defense. It's pretty terrible right now. I got to say, though, I want to lead off because I know there's this growing discontent, I guess, already with Mike McCarthy and some frustrations. And I know that, you know, there were some Garrett comparisons drawn after the game or some contrast and compare. And I know you pushed back against that a little bit.

So I guess give us your best current one and three Cowboys, Mike McCarthy defense for the job he's, you know, hoping to do here over the next couple years. Yeah, well, I mean, clearly it's not a good start. Let's let's start there. You'd like to think that you get in here and presto, things start changing immediately, but almost never is a coach hired because things are going great. So we'll start there and not to sound like Matt Patricia, but there's some things to clean up. Even if Matt Patricia didn't have much of a mess, taking over for Jim Caldwell, I think Mike McCarthy did in many respects, having to do things differently than the Cowboys have. Not that they were a two and 14 team at any point, but for 10 years, they did things a certain way.

We could all argue whether that should have been five years or four years or something like that, but it got to 10. And so the Jason Garrett belief system, the Jason Garrett locker room, the Jason, I mean, we're not even talking about schemes and concepts and things that you see between the lines. we're talking about just the way a football coach functions in the National Football League, which is different in many places. But I think the Dallas job is about as unique as it gets because they have this really odd combo platter of being the target of ridicule almost the second they're on the podium because people are just have fatigued of blaming Jerry Jones or the Jones family for why things are the way they are. So they've actually outlasted their criticism to where people like us don't even have the energy to say what the real issues are with the Dallas Cowboys, even though it's pretty obvious if you just look at it from the macro 25 year view of how this organization does business. So you get all the blame because, well, you know, first we start with like position coaches and then we work our way up.

But head coach gets the blame for the most part. and then very little of the credit because the credit, as we know in this town, generally goes to the players and then back to Jerry and the Jones family and, you know, the Cowboy Empire. So you just can't turn around the Queen Mary in a real, real, you know, tight cul-de-sac. You're going to take, it's going to take some time. And then Mike McCarthy, you know, has the 2006 season that I lived through, where he took over Mike Sherman's team and they started. started one in four and then four and eight.

And then after that, I think over the next 150 games, they were winning at a clip that was only matched by basically the New England Patriots and obviously exceeded by the Patriots, but the Patriots and the Seahawks. I mean, it's a short, short list of teams that can say they won like Mike McCarthy's Packers. So, you know, from a standpoint of three or four weeks in saying, what a mistake. We were better off where we were. I would say to those people,

are you insane? Because that's not true. It's the slightest level. But to expect without a camp, without an offseason, without any ability to either cut ties with Jason Garrett guys or bring in his own guys

as far as the actual players in the uniform. I think it's so insanely early to even have this conversation that I do run out of energy quite quickly on the Twitter. You know, I want to ask you this. I could argue both sides of Mike McCarthy being reluctant to call out effort. He said you've got to be careful with professional athletes.

And I agree. You can lose a locker room in a team really quick, especially when you haven't had the opportunity to bond with the training camp in the offseason. With that being said, Bruce Ariens hasn't been afraid of calling out effort of a guy who's won, what, six Super Bowls, Tom Brady. Right. Which approach do you like?

Because I know personally, I prefer what a ball. questions my effort. I prefer when somebody doesn't sugarcoat things for me. He said he doesn't have a menu of love, my favorite quote clip that our boy Bobby Belt put out, but should it be on the menu? Oh yeah. Yeah, it absolutely should be. And I would say McCarthy probably has never felt like he fully is in charge of his franchise. Okay. And that goes back to Green Bay, where he took over a team that had Brett Farr. And then he inherited a team and grew Aaron Rogers into what amounts to a Brett Farrf clone as far as you could run for office up there. You could absolutely get anybody run, both above you or below you in the organization. I mean,

these quarterbacks of great power. There aren't many of them, but he's had two of them along the way. then he had a GM that pretty much told him on draft day and in free agency, look, I got this, you coach the team, I'll pick, you know, I'll buy the groceries. Then he comes here to the ultimate, we're not sure if the coach is actually the final say on matters. And so if Mike McCarthy has been groomed in a tiptoe around and not overplay your cards against the room, and, you know, I mean, everyone loves Bruce Ariens approach to things. He's phenomenal at great quotes, great interviews, and a wonderful personality. But I imagine it's different, you know, when you're out there in Arizona and nobody ever sees the owner.

People aren't quite sure, you know, who the GM is, but they know that Bruce Ariens got the Cardinals playing good football. And you quickly realize that, man, I'm the king of this castle. So, and Tampa Bay is probably just so happy Bruce Ariens agreed to come coach. for them. So, you know, I just think it's, I think McCarthy is probably used to these massive franchises that do things a certain way and probably wants to really pick his spots to take somebody on. You know, for years, him and Rogers obviously had some tension about them, but there's very little public displays of that from McCarthy that would tell you he's ever going to say anything in front of a microphone that chops off the legs of those that he needs to keep on his side.

That's my best theory on that one. Bobby, real quick, I want to expand on that a little bit. There is a level of diplomacy that is needed in Dallas, to your point. But because you've covered this team longer than Bobby and myself, would you not agree that at least it feels like the tone and the message from Stephen and Jerry have taken a, I'm not going to say a backseat because Jerry hates when you say that. I remember saying that on the radio a couple of years ago about Stephen taking the reins and Jerry took exception to it. But do you feel, though, at least he's been the man looking in the mirror.

Oh, yeah. And he's realized maybe he needs to give his head coach a little bit of power. And how long, if you agree with that statement, does Jerry relinquish said power if it starts trending in the same direction? Yeah, well, I mean, I hate to be cliche here, but I will fall back on the Bill Parcell's career arc a little bit. say that the first couple years, there was that exact feeling that, wow, backseat, not taking all the glory, still could live without a few of those radio shows he insists on doing, but otherwise it kind of looks like he's letting the coach be the coach. Okay, this is great. Then, let's see, I guess 2004 was probably, Bobby, was that the Benny season?

Yeah, that was the year Quincy was cut in camp. They went six and ten. That was the Eddie George iteration. Yeah, it was mostly Vinny and they didn't quite win and so a little stumbling, not the same upward arc. And by, you know, 05 and 06, now it's, hey, I think we need T.O. in here. Yeah, Eddie George was

before that. And by the end, you know, the story seems to be that it was Parcell's just being like, after the Seattle playoff game. It's just like, you know, I'll finish out this year. But if you're going to put T.O. on my roster,

than I'm clearly not getting what we agree to, and I'd rather go watch horses, you know, race or whatever Parcells would do. So I don't know that it's like for like. I don't know that it's coyote and roadrunner and that we watch the same episodes play out of the same, you know, imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

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I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

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Your arts over and over again, but, you know, that is a, distinct situation. And then after the Parcells thing was over, he did not want to deal with an alpha male head coach again for a long, long time. And so, you know, now we're back to this. And I would imagine how long does it take? Well, how long do you believe that the guy you hired is doing a great job and is worth the trouble and is worth the backseat? And if that starts two and six, well, you know, Jerry and Stephen are probably not just going to sit there and say we promised him five years. I would say it can happen pretty fast, and that's why it's important for McCarthy to demonstrate that he knows what he's doing.

And I think most notably that the handling of the defense, for guys like me, who follow two franchises extremely close, McCarthy's old stop and McCarthy's present stop. I can't help but think about years and years and years of Dom Capers, seemingly not up to the grade of getting that defense in Green Bay where it needs to be. And heck, even special teams. And so he was an offense and focuses on the offense and focuses on the quarterback. And maybe we can overcome a mediocre defense. And already we're starting to feel that same theme again.

And it's certainly not helping anybody are down here that Matt LaFleur looks like he's solved all Green Bay puzzles in 20 games. And then it doesn't help that Kevin Stefansky can roll in here also as a new coach four games in, except he's never even done anything resembling a head coach before. And Cleveland looked like they had every single chess move planned and executed on Sunday.

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Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. I think it's interesting. I mean, I think you bring up a good point in terms of there needs to be some grace given here in terms of, you know, there needs to be at least a little honeymoon period and a time for things to come together and for him to install his culture and his way of doing things. I mean, just even going out at training camp practice, we saw how different the practices themselves looked structurally from a Garrett practice. And so I'm sure there's a big adjustment period. but I also think it's interesting that you bring up Parcells

and, you know, they three straight five and 11, Parcells comes in here, they go 10 and 6. They kind of muddle along after that, and then Wade Phillips comes in here, and it's kind of like a breath of fresh air, and it's new, and it's 13 and 3. And then Wade Phillips struggles, and then Garrett comes in, and they rattle off some wins

after looking like the worst team in football in 2010. I guess that's my biggest thing that I'm surprised about. I'm surprised that this team after 10 years of Jason Garrett didn't just naturally feel some sort of, new like newness bump that they did with DAC coming in at quarterback garrett taking over that first year things like that i'm just surprised i guess that apparently there's enough issues here that even the newness factor isn't proving good enough for them to play a little better than they did last year yeah and i wonder how much just goes back straight to defense uh obviously the

covid season um is a great built-in excuse but you know if it only applies in certain cities, then it does sound like an excuse. And so that's a problem. You know, the Gerald McCoy thing, I don't believe he was just brought in here because he's a good football player. I think he was brought in here because the defense needed a voice. And he's very much a magnet of attention and a voice in the huddle and a voice in the room. And I think they valued that because I think they look at this defense as a lot of transplant players from other organizations later in their career. And many of them have been cast aside. And then a lot of really, really young kids that they need to turn a corner.

And so, you know, it's one thing if, you know, you're just waiting for development. It's another thing if, you know, your second and or your third and fourth round defenders in Gallimore and Robinson. and some of these guys just being inactive. You know, obviously you've seen more out of Tristan Hill. That's good. But they seem understaffed right now badly on defense, which makes us wonder how bad was Haja Clinton Dix that he couldn't help this thing at all.

And you're rolling out Daryon Thompson still. Or Brandon Carr. It's weird how they're cutting bait so quickly with some of these veterans. Yeah, yeah. And so when you look at Sunday guys, I mean, you know, just the way Cleveland just took apart this defense

without ever asking Baker Mayfield to do anything with any degree of difficulty, that's terrifying. And Everson Griffin looks lost in his current responsibilities. It looks like something he's never been asked to do and frankly is not capable of necessarily holding that edge. And Alden Smith,

you know, if you want theories on why they are trying, you know, a three, four in these situations. Well, I think because they thought Alvin Smith was worth the trouble because he can maybe be that good. And they needed, you know, a bookend that made some sense. And so they're weak at defensive tackle. They're very weak at linebacker right now. They're very weak at safety. I thought Xavier Woods was a bright spot until I popped on the film. And I'm just like, man, you are not helping at all.

on, you know, as far as tackling and against the run and the corners want very little to do with it. And in fact, who thought these would be the corners that are playing all the time at this stage? So, you know, there is a massive, massive deficit in confidence right now that we did not anticipate happening by basically the Texas OU game. We'd already wonder, does Mike McCarthy fully grasp what the challenge was? And I think with all these guys, you are looking at a two-year deal where the first year, you're kind of allowing everybody to earn their future with the Dallas Cowboys. And then the second year, you are making the appropriate changes. But I go back to Parcells, they were not switching scheme until they felt like they had the people to carry it out.

Like that first year, they were pretty much staying with what was in place. And, you know, the transformation was. mostly that 05 draft with DeMarcus and Spears and Ratliff and the players from that crew. And that's when they really were able to take on new ideas that were this systematic. And, you know, from that standpoint, the first several teams did not really expose that, but the Browns and 12 personnel kept the Cowboys in base. And that's when you really saw, I don't think these guys know what they're doing, which goes back to the offseason program not even existing.

You know, you bring up a good point. There was so much confusion about what Mike Nolan was going to bring to this defense. Is it 3-4? Is it 4-3? Is it exotic? Is it multiple? I don't think we know what it is. And then I saw someone make the observation. I thought this was pretty keen because they're so confused and because this was introducing a lot given a condensed training camp and, you know, these Zoom room OTAs,

are they falling back on what they know and that's leading to some of the confusion? back there because I got to tell you, one of the only bright spots that I see out there in terms of just making effort is Trayvon Dix. I love his effort. I mean, he's always almost there, but at least he's trying. I know some people have said this criticism of Jalen Smith isn't fair, but just put in the tape. I'm not even a football tape girl. And I remember leaning over to Bobby in the press box before pre-snap, and I was like,

what is going on out there? They don't know what they're doing. Yeah. And so what's been your take on some of that? Well, I mean, it wasn't enjoyable to watch, you know, Cleveland do whatever they wanted because when you start talking about franchise records, you're talking about a thousand Dallas Cowboy games. Like next year they'll play their 1,000th game as a franchise. And Sunday was a singular worst ever run defense game, 308 yards from the Browns on the ground. Now think about the 308 yards.

They had one, one 30-yard run in that game. And so this isn't like Baltimore at the end of 2008 where they busted 275 yards or whatever. That is the exact game I thought of when Odell Beckham scored that touchdown. I was thinking of that exact thing. Excellent, because so did I. But I would say that at least in that, they came in massive chunks. The Odell Beckham ended around. They were already at 260 when they did that or something along those lines.

line. So, so they, they got gashed 12, 9, 11, 17 at a time. And that suggests it's not a bust. It's not one person screwing this up. It is a collective, you know, I mean, there's, there's a couple things. Of course, mistackles is very bad. But as you said, just lining up. Cleveland, Cleveland does a couple really cool things, which of course are not, you know, they're unique material, but they pre-snap motion with tight ends and basically just confuse your alignment. And if you are not well-schooled, then they have you outnumbered. And no matter what you're doing in the National Football League, if you got four and they got three, we're going to have a problem. If the three are supposed to take care of the four blockers

and make the tackle, that's just not going to work. Well, that happens several times. tell on Sunday. Then, you know, the flip side of that is, now you got wide receivers and tight ends who are really interested in the run game. So say what you want about Jarvis Landry or Harrison Bryant or Austin Hooper, but they are getting after your safeties and linebackers. And now your corners are like, okay, my guy just went and just took care of that guy. Now I have to make the stop. And so it's great job by them of making all 11 cowboys try to tap. And I agree with you on Diggs. I'm very high on his future, but he also looks like he took on Jake Matthews in week two and is probably nurse in a shoulder.

And that hurts, man. And so, you know, you just start looking at all these plays. And you could say, man, yeah, it's Nick Chubb and Cream Hunt. Yeah, but here's the thing. I can show you runs where the cowboys were clueless at the point of handoff. So Baker turns around and hands it to me. And you pause it right there. Now, I'm not going to be able to get to the line of scrimmon.

very fast, but I am going to have the same view that Kareem Hunt had or whoever their fourth running back was. And it is a, you know, you could push a F-150 through that hole. And, and, you know, and so it's not the quality of the running backs, although they are very good. It was basically a defense that looked like a poorly coached high school team, frankly. You know, and just gap integrity, just know where to be. And now the battle begins. But if you don't know where to be, you've lost a battle before the snap. And that's, and that's what's happening too much. It's, it's funny to me. I kind of had this observation during the week. I was thinking about the mental makeup over the last few years and into this year of the guys on

offense versus the guys on defense. It feels almost like they're running two separate locker rooms. Like you have the DAC Prescott's. And over the years, you've had Jason Witten and Ezekiel Elliott and Travis Frederick and those types of personalities on offense. And then on defense, you seem to have some guys who are a little sensitive to criticism sometimes. And, DeMarcus Lawrence and Jalen Smith and Everson Griffin and, you know, go down the line. With that being said and some of the sensitivity and DeMarx Lawrence called the defense soft after the game on Sunday, how much, not necessarily his play, because he is getting up there in age and everything, how much does this Cowboys defense miss the Sean Lee IQ and holding guys accountable for busted coverages

and making sure guys understand their assignments? I would imagine a lot. I would imagine if you had the options of Van deresh and Sean Lee at linebacker. There's a good chance those might be your two now. I think Joe Thomas is a great story. But Mike McCarthy will tell you what Joe Thomas was in Green Bay, and that is a third down. We need a linebacker who can play coverage.

He is not there for his fantastic run defense. I mean, he's already made more plays as a cowboy linebacker. in a month than he did in Green Bay. No disrespect. He was a special team guy and a nickel linebacker. And so that's him. Now, Jalen, there's definitely been criticism since he was at Notre Dame that he is a really solid C-ball, get-ball react type linebacker. But as far as sorting things and quarterbacking the defense, I don't know that that's ever

been a specialty for him. And one of the lost off-season stories, of course, was they were switching those. to linebackers and everybody's like, so what are the differences going to be? Well, the differences are probably going to be that on some level, they will be allowing Vanderech to do more of the sorting and Jalen to do, you know, more of,

I don't know what's going on out there. If that's coming from my place, I'll try to quiet that down momentarily. But, you know, they want Vandrech to do more of the sorting and they didn't even make it through the, what, the second quarter of the first game. So, so just overall, it is problematic.

And, you know, I wish you had a veteran safety or a veteran linebacker or, you know, basically somebody on the defense that you thought grasped the concepts in a way that not only does he know what to do, but he knows how to get everybody where they need to be because it really looks like they're missing that right now. All right. I want your take on this because I feel like I have to, as much as Bobby goes to war for Dak Prescott, I go to war that Earl Thomas isn't the end. answer. And the reason why I say that is, for as skilled as he is on the football team,

talk to any locker room, and I've talked to a bunch of people that have played with him, he is not necessarily a team guy. He's a him guy. And I don't know if this defense needs another him guy. And so for how great he is and possibly future Hall of Fame world, though I would argue that maybe this last year is maybe going to make that a little bit harder for him, that one piece considering all the problems you have it especially by the way you're going to have to probably identify some help for your offensive line at some point i don't know if you go and spend the money at the grocery store on this luxury item right now everyone seems to think earl thomas fits and i'm shocked even when i hear veteran like football players and analysts suggest because i again i'll never say i'm smarter than the smarter guys in the room but I just want to be like this is common sense. From a leadership perspective, from a price tag perspective,

this isn't going to fix. If anything, it could actually make things worse. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot there for sure. You know, when Earl Thomas was 2017, Earl Thomas or something like that, he was phenomenal. And nobody would ever dispute that. Then the question quickly becomes, would he be the best safety on the Cowboys? And yes, of course he would.

But so would many players in this league. So I don't think that should necessarily, you know, be the decision making. I would be terrified if two of the best rooms in the NFL, Seattle and Baltimore, both pretty much were happy to see him leave. You know, he should be a folk hero in Seattle, but our last vision of him in Seattle is flipping the bird to the sideline on the way off the card because he was very worried about his contract. And look, I get it.

but that's not really going out like a hero. Usually we just say they figuratively flipped off the franchise on their way out. Like, like, Fargo, going to the Vikings. Okay, now that's a figurative thing. Going to the Jets. Don't forget the Jets era, Farv. I know you try to, but don't. The buffer year was wonderful.

But just from a standpoint of what we just talked about those, like basically having a brain, a CPU on the field that can, can make an unorganized defense fall in the place over time. I don't think you do that from a vagabond, if you will, a three team, three years and three teams guy. You know, Ha Ha ha, Clint Dix was on his fourth team in three years. And I'm like, guys, this is not your fix. Trust me.

And it turned out he never played a snap here. But, you know, I just, I think you need somebody who is, in many respects, probably far less famous than, you know, the studio shows will, I mean, they, the type of person that can really make a difference on this defense will not be one of the 100, top 100 in the NFL summer, you know, NFL films thing. He will be a, a player that probably is even homegrown and probably is a Sean Lee type clone, but probably a younger, more healthy version of of Sean Lee. And, you know, those guys are everywhere in this league, but we don't know who they are but until they go into coaching, right? And then so in real time, there are great players,

but there are also great processors and great coordinators who are wearing uniforms on every team. And I would say this team is greatly lacking that. But I would also say when they find that guy, he might be on the team already, by the way, but when they find that guy, we will not lead sports center with it. We will not, you know, it will not be on the tickered at the bottom of the screen. It, it just happens. And coaches know who they are on the outside. We figured it out after while, but it's, it's not as obvious as, hey, let's go get a real famous player and plug him in, and he'll instantly understand everything that we couldn't figure out in several months without him. You know, it would be interesting to see, too, if they just move Sean Lee over to a coaching role

for linebackers. I feel like they've struggled with that linebackers coach for a while. I often wonder if he was put into more of a coach role. The preparation, I would imagine, and the expectations that he would have for those players in that capacity might even just address some of the problems you have there. Yeah, it's tough. You know, and this goes back to my belief on what you spend draft capital on is there are certain positions on the field where just durability is everything.

And, you know, the brain power is great. but if you're missing six weeks, it's now unavailable. And they lose your ability. They also lose your coordination ability. And that's why, you know, investing high in a running back or a linebacker, which is basically the defensive running back, who's, you know, these guys are in these collisions together. And that's why their career spans are so short.

And that's why I'm always terrified to spend a first or a second round pick on any of them because it's, and especially to pay one, it's a very, very, difficult thing to to project out as durability. It's just it's it's impossible it seems like. So last thing here for you, I heard David Hellman from Dallas Cowboys.com. I'm going to paraphrase him here, but I thought it was a good point, which is when you look at this Cowboys defense, they are, I test alone, they're the worst in the NFL right now. It doesn't feel very close. And what's funny is you've got such a good offense that if you just had one of the worst defenses in the NFL and not the worst in the NFL, you might be three and one and looking at a double

digit win season. But that's just how bad this defense is right now. So in all the teams that you've seen, you know, there were some rough Campo years there. There was 2013, 2012. Those were some rough defenses. Where does this defense for you that you've seen right now? Where does this stack up as just the one of the worst defenses you've seen the Cowboys roll out there? Wow. I'm going to start with do not sleep on how bad 2013. 2013 was really bad. It was. 2013. It's going to take another two months of garbage to get to 2013 because you had the Broncos game, which everybody remembers. They forget the Megatron game. They forget the Saints game. The Saints, I believe.

Yeah, they had an absurd amount of first downs. They also, I don't, I think every possession ended in a score. except maybe one. Yeah, I mean, I remember it set several records for bad defense. Was that Monty Kiffon? That was Monty Kiffon, yeah. And then also don't sleep on the December trip to Chicago that year. They had four or five of the worst games in cowboy history all within about eight weeks of each other.

So the Monte Kiffin, 2013 Cowboys, of course, he was brought in to fix what Rob Ryan couldn't sort out. Remember that? And we needed to get to somebody who plays well, with others a little more so in 2013. It was a one-year deal. He did not have a ton of talent, but you had some guys kind of breaking down, and

I think George Selby might have been their best defensive alignment. Jason Hatcher, Jason Hatcher and his 10 sacks that year. But I would just say overall, this is in the mix early. I'd like to think they're going to get some players back. I'd like to think they're going to start

pushing a Nevo Gallomar out there a little more and some of these young defensive backs. If that's Donovan Wilson, great. But, you know, they had some real important contract decisions to make on a Wuzier, on Xavier Woods. And I kind of feel like those things are starting to sort themselves out in a somewhat depressing fashion. And, hey, just keep rolling. Now, they're short at linebacker. So I don't understand why they have not been more aggressive.

I would have liked to see Malcolm Smith kept around, honestly, from last December. He was in the stadium on Sunday, as you guys know. but they're really short at linebacker if Joe Thomas has to play this much. And so if Van der Wesch and Sean Lee can factor in, awesome if they can't, man. The problem is it's not a problem. It's literally everything on this defense. They can't stop the pass.

They can't stop the run. They can't get sacks. They can't get takeaways. They are brutal. And so you can't say what can we build on because at this point, I don't know what you can build on defensively. Now, could you also be three and one if the offense was not leading the league in giveaways? I kind of think you could.

You know, I don't want to say you can't win with this defense at its current form because they could be three and one if they did not lead the league in first half giveaways, in giveaways and in turnover differential. Now, that is partly defensive dependent, but guys, this offense is too good to have, what, 10 giveaways already. I just also think you're asking this offense to do way too much. Even the criticism

of Zecchio Elliott, yes, he's not putting up the gaudy stats, but again, you look at the tape, I'm just saying what I see with the eyeball. He's doing things in past protection and helping that line more than people are giving him credit for it. If I'm Zeke, Ezekiel Elliott,

I am absolutely exhausted. I am literally brutalizing my body to get into the end zone. I'm taking these hits, you know, I'm setting up the pass and nobody's giving you credit for it. It's sort of thankless. But at the same time, you're not paying him $90 million just to pass pro. I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, it's being required of him right now. But, but I mean, when he's dropping five passes and he's turning over the ball with like two,

three fumbles already. I mean, there, there's a lot there that Ezekiel, L. He is doing some good stuff in past protection, but I think you can say this has been the worst start to a season for him that he's had. But it's probably the most that they've asked him to do in his time here in Dallas as well. I'm just saying like there are a lot of areas I'm happy to call out but that one I don't know if I'm all in on that one just necessarily you want to call out the giveaways though I mean that 100% ball security is okay absolutely I'm yeah I'll definitely speak to that yeah but unforced errors and and even to Kellan Moore you can't you can't ask Terrence Steele to block Miles Garrett without help and and and to kind of be shocked when you call a couple of deep routes. I mean, that was a touchdown. That strip, Sacks strip, I think if you go back and look at DAC getting ready to hit CD Lamb on a coverage that Cleveland has no answer for because Amari's taken the post. I mean, that's a great idea, but you better get Zeke to help out and chip on

Garrett because, you know, Terrence Steele, God bless him. He has no chance there, no chance to hold Miles Garrett off for three seconds. So, you know, and then I hear people, blame Prescott for that. Okay, fine. You can blame Prescott for not knowing what the right tackle is doing when he's looking down the left sideline. I mean, I guess. But I just think that probably goes on Kellynne Moore right there.

This is a great idea, guys, but unless Lyle Collins is over there, or unless I have a tight end or a running back helping, I can't expect Miles Garrett to wait for us to throw that pass. Can we give out an MVP of a losing team? because I feel like DAC Prescott's that I would if I was DAC and it was a franchise tag year given that I've got two rookies on my offensive line I'm getting killed I might pull up with some sort of I don't know

an injury I'm protecting my body in him one thing before I let you go worst offense in the league versus the worst defense in the league this Sunday how bad does this thing get if the giant somehow managed to come in here and get a win Wow. That would be bad. That would be very, very bad because this one really should be a layup. The Giants, you know, they have so many problems of their own. You know, I know nobody wants to cut Jason Garrett slack specifically me, but I don't know how anybody can can really hold the Giants offense terribly accountable without a lot of their pieces. I mean, I don't think Nate Solder was great. But, you know, once he opts out, now you got to move Andrew Thomas to left tackle. He's not ready to roll.

I kind of don't even like that pick, given all the left tackles that were available on the draft. I think he was like the fourth best. Well, they took him first best. Should have taken Beckton. Should have taken Beckton. Then, yeah, well, I mean, Beckton and Worps and Wills. I mean, I just think.

If Andrew Thomas works out for them, God bless him. I think that was probably a reach. But then Saquan and, you know, Sterling Shepherd and just all the mess that They have. Daniel Jones does not feel the rush at all. He can make some beautiful plays, but it's a real work in progress. So I would not. Two and five has touchdown to interception ratio right now. Pass rating 68.3.

No, it's, it's tough to make a decision on him. He's one of those quarterbacks that at some point, I guess they have another year, but at some point the Giants are going to have to say, it's just a great idea or, you know, I mean, are we going to pass up? on whoever is next down the conveyor belt. They're in the Trevor Lawrence game is one way to look at it. But if you go one and four and you lose it home to the Giants, it's going to get extremely unpleasant if it's not already.

I don't even know. Can it get hotter than it is right now? Probably. I don't know. I feel like an apathy is setting in with this team. I think people had their expectations so high. And I think people are beginning to feel like I've done this. At least I'm speaking from Tom Slater's perspective.

of my father. I do this every year. I get excited. I believe. And even with a winning coach coming here, same thing, if not worse, more people are doing yard work on Sundays. Yeah. No, no. The fans, look, it's, it's a broken fan base. I mean, ratings are up across the NFL. Cowboys ratings are down. They are down. It's a 25-year burden. Yeah, you're not going to get the fans to give this thing patience and the benefit of the doubt. And I don't. I'll blame them. Fine. But as far as the guys in the room, October needs to be, you know, a profitable month. And, and, you know, I do think there's a lot to like. I just think I need to start getting those kids out on the field more. I, you know, because I don't need to bring guys in on one-year deals

who are past their 30th birthday to look like garbage. You know, just move on and keep going. Let's find guys who fit the scheme and who have an endless motor. And, you know, if you blew some cash in the off season that you're not going to get back, I'm sorry, don't chase the night with that. Get the younger players in here and start turning this defense over until you find a combination you like because it can't get worse than this. I agree. I think you should go through the painful growing pains that is this season.

I think, you know, this is a challenge. year. If you've been to the games, the energy is so flat, but to spend any more money at this point knowing that just one piece here and there is going to somehow change this defense. To your point, there's just, it's like plugging one hole on a ship that's got a bunch of holes in it, that one hole that you plug is not going to help the rest of the boat from taking in water. No, it's a defense is a weak link, not a strong link sport. And so, so people think about, man, I got to go get Jamal Adams for two number ones and for $70 million. You do not.

You need to fix your weak links, and that actually is not that expensive, but it requires way more moves. So don't you dare use two number one and $70 million to get a strong link on a unit that's 11 guys, and they will find your weakest link. So you've got to fix that. And right now, there's a lot of choices for weakest link. So get to work. Well, you can follow along with Bob as he breaks down the Cowboys Lost to the Giants next week

over on Twitter at Sports. Sturm and go get an athletic subscription. They've always got deals going on. You guys have any deals right now for, I think you've got one of these like $1 for the first month or something type of things. It's well worth it. I try to write stuff that people aren't writing if possible. And I like it's harder and harder.

But I promise I will never cover the latest girlfriend situation of the starting quarterback to Dallas Cowboys. I will never cover that. what we're here for, Bob. Don't encroach on our territory. Geez. Gosh. All right. Well, you follow along with Bob over at Twitter at Sportster. Bob, thanks so much. My pleasure, guys. All right. And our next podcast, we'll preview this game. Cowboys versus Giants. Jason Garrett's return here after departing from this team.

And we're not done discussing the effort. We're not done discussing what's on tape. My colleague, Daniel Jeremiah from the NFL Network, joins us next. If you love to be remembered as the person who gives the best birthday gifts, I'm here to tell you that 1800flowers.com is your ultimate birthday gifting destination. 1,800 Flowers has thoughtful and artfully created options that are guaranteed to deliver the best birthday surprise. Shop thousands of unique gifts at 1,800flowers.com for exclusive offers and great values. To order today, visit 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1-800flowers.com

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