The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - ‘Air’ Review + Sam Smith on Jordan Criticism Pushback, Ownership Failures

Episode Date: March 22, 2023

First, (3:00) Colin gives his review for the ‘Air’, detailing the story of the Nike’s pursuit of Michael Jordan which led to the groundbreaking Air Jordan campaign. Then, longtime Bulls writer - and author of The Jordan Rules - Sam Smith joins Colin to discuss criticism he received after releasing The Jordan Rules, how The Last Dance has only enhanced Jordan’s legacy, why Jordan has been largely out of the public spotlight in retirement, why he didn’t succeed as an NBA owner, the G.O.A.T debate, and what Sam doesn’t like about the modern NBA style of play. Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates, and check out FanDuel for the best wagering and daily fantasy action! #Herd #VolumeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Casino LLC. Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler or visit fanduel.com slash RG, Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, Virginia. 1-800 next step, or text next step to 533442, Arizona. 1-88-78-9-7-77- or visit CCPpG.org slash chat, Connecticut. 1-800-9 with it, Indiana. 1-800-522-4700 to visit KSgambling, help.com, Kansas, 18777-7-7-0-Stop, Louisiana.

Call 1-800-3-2-5-50 or visit www. M.A underscore helpline.org slash problem gambling. Visit www.md.mdgamblinghelp.org, Maryland. 18778, 8.7, New York, or text Hope, New York, 467369, New York, 1,800, 522, 4,700, Wyoming, or visit www.1-800 gambler.net, West Virginia. Hi, everybody. Welcome in to a Wednesday morning podcast. Every year I interview Sam Smith, who in 1991 wrote the New York Times bestseller of the Jordan Rules.

which sort of defined the first real public criticism of Michael Jordan and the pushback he received. But Sam has a lot of depth and knowledge on MJ and a lot of positive things to say. So I think you'll really like the interview. There's a lot of things he brought up that I had not thought about. And I want to talk for about five minutes about the movie, The Air Movie on Jordan and Sonny Vaccaro. So I saw it the other night, Monday night premiere in L.A. at the Design Center in West Hollywood.

And so years and years ago, my first recollection of Sunny Vaccaro, I covered UNLV out of college 30 years ago, over 30 years ago. And Vaccaro hung around the program because, you know, at that time, UNLV was on a shortlist of the most captivating programs in the country. And you'd see Sunny Vaccaro around the program. And to be honest with you, you know, Tark always had that kind of just, you know, a little shadiness, you know, Tark was given by UNLV about 40 tickets per home game. And Tark could give those out to whoever he wanted. It was very unique. Even the top coaches in college basketball at that time, Dean Smith, Nolan Richardson at Arkansas, maybe got four or five tickets per home game. Tark had like 40, 45. So there were always people hanging around practice that, you know, we're a little, little, little, shady, you know, and I'd see Sunny Vicaro around, and I didn't know what to make of him. He was always a very nice guy, but anybody that hung around Tark, you know, I was a journalist, there was some controversial players. I was always a little suspicious of, but you could tell very early on he had such an affection

for players. The players loved him. He loved the players. And then I started asking around about Sonny Vicaro, and you found that he was a really brilliant basketball mind with his heart in the right place. He thought players deserve something for all their time and effort. And Sonny Vaccaro was a really important figure in the NCAA's history on reforming college sports. But Vaccaro plays a key role in this movie because Nike was mostly a jogging company because that's what Phil Knight did. And Phil Knight, you know, in the movie is

you know, not wearing socks, you know, often wandering intellectually. He had spent a lot of time in Asia. And Phil was always a unique, had kind of an eastern, not Western perspective, an Eastern perspective on a psychology and philosophy and business. Makes him a fascinating guy, Phil Knight. And, you know, Vicaro was just a tough-minded, gruff, little chubby, was never going to jog. They were very different people. But in the movie, I think it gives you a sense of how Phil respected Sonny Vicaro and how

Sonny Vicaro appreciated the courage of Phil Knight. I really thought it was an excellent movie. I'm no film critic, but the audience erupted in applause multiple times. And my takeaway on it, I love the relationship between Sonny Vicaro, who's finally sort of getting the affirmation and the validation he deserves. Phil's gotten plenty of it. And also for Michael Jordan's mother. And a real big takeaway I had in this movie is that Michael's mother, still living, is a no-nonsense

woman growing up in the South, very protective of her son and very demanding of others respecting her son. And she comes off as incredibly likable in the movie and powerful. And I really think you win as an officer. audience watching this movie. You have great respect for Michael's parents, for Sonny Vicaro, and those people have not been given the credit in the Michael Jordan story, at least outwardly, that they probably deserve. So I highly recommend watching it. For me, it was so personal because I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and spent six, seven years in Portland. I loved all the

drone shots, the Nike campus, and the Steve Prefontein images and, you know, the bridges. You see cars, you know, driving over. It was really, for me, it really worked as a movie. But I think it gives credit to people who probably haven't been given those accolades previously in Michael Jordan's legendary career. You know, I also thought there was a very clever touch by Ben Affleck is that you never really see Michael Jordan in the movie. You hear his voice.

You see him from the back. And that's interesting metaphorically because Michael is a really, really private. guy. And without Michael having a big role in the movie, it allows you to concentrate more on key figures like his mother and Sonny Vaccaro and Phil Knight. So it gets a, you know, multiple thumbs up from me, very touching, very genuine, and credit to people who have deserved more through the years in Michael's amazing basketball journey. With the NFL season over, all eyes in the sporting world turned everything from the NBA to college hoops to the NHL. Plenty of games to watch are even better.

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Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, I did watch the movie, The Air Movie, about the early version of Nike, Sunny Vaccaro, and Michael Jordan. mom plays a key figure in this movie. She's really the star of the movie. And I thought as I watched the movie, I've been very critical of Michael through the years saying that Nike's Air Jordan commercials, the greatest domestic ad campaign of my life. And it has created almost a Reagan-like shield, a Teflon shield around Michael, when if you simply acknowledge previous failings, you're considered a hater. Well, Sam Smith was the original critic of Michael, the only one. Back in 1991, the Jordan rules, a magnificent book on the turbulent season with Michael Jordan and the Bulls, New York Times bestseller.

It was the talk of the literary sports world for several years. He got a Lifetime Achievement Award Pro Basketball Writers Association. Kurt Gowdy Media Award, Hall of Fame, currently writes for Bulls.com. And whenever I'm critical of Jordan, as I watch that movie, I always get major pushback. And I've said this before that, you know, Michael would punch a player and they would say, well, he's just very competitive. Draymond Green punches a guy he should be thrown out of the league. And I think, you know, it's part of that smile and charisma. When you released the book, you obviously knew you were, Michael was wildly popular.

Did you expect the avalanche criticism? Did you know it was coming? Colin, let me say first, if Michael punched somebody and his knuckles were bruised, that was on the other guy. And I think that's what we have to mention. No, I was, you know, we probably talked about that. And I'm frankly pleased that you're still on the air being critical of Jordan. You know, there's a thought police about that these days. Yeah.

I was probably pretty naive about it being a reporter, having been an investigative reporter over the years, I figured, well, if I just write what's true, you know, what's the problem with that? And so it was an incredible, you know, it was over 30 years ago. And, you know, one thing I was kind of pleased about and pleased about a lot of things, you know, with the last dance documentary. But one is that Michael sort of copped to all this finally. It took 30 years. But he said, yeah, yeah, it could be a jerk.

But, you know, I had a reason for it. And so back then it was say, yeah, you know, the guy's tough to live with. And people's because of, as you refer to those commercials, he was. was really, I mean, marketed as kind of, you know, the cliche, All-American Kai. I remember one of the Coca-Cola sponsors, he, like, leaped up into a treehouse to deliver the Coca-Cola. And he, I mean, and they made a point of this. They were doing, you know, Chevrolet, Apple Pie. They were doing those commercials to make it as American as, you know, patriotic and could be. And then so, you know, sort of write a book about behind the scenes in basketball. He said, well, this is not Michael Jordan. I saw him in the commercials. He's nothing like that. Right. You know, it's not that I'll defend him, but I was talking about this with somebody the other day. A lot of us resent or regret what we did in our 20s, but we did it for a reason. We were immature. I mean, I grew up divorced kid on my own, not a lot of money in the family. And I was a pretty relentless workaholic in my 20s. And that's, and that's, I mean, I grew up divorced kid on my own, I mean, I was a lot of money in the family. And I was a pretty relentless workaholic in my 20s. And that. And that. I grew up. I grew up. And I was. And I was. And I was. I was. I

That's what I thought I needed and was mature enough to handle it that time. And I look at Michael and I say, people say, oh, he was rough on teammates. But the pistons were tackling him. The Celtics were doing about the same. The East was loaded and physical and it was all allowed by the league. And I say to myself, relentless was the only way for Michael to get through it. He was being attacked defensively. And could I argue that we do things throughout the course of our life because it gets us to a better place?

and the East was bully ball, Knicks, Celtics, Pistons, and Michael was the target for almost all of it. And he was just, he was building up a medal and a toughness in that Chicago Bull team that was necessary. I mean, that's exactly right. Because, you know, what gets overlooked, because Michael Jordan came into the NBA out of the 84 Olympics, game winning shot in North Carolina, you know, with, such fanfare to dunking in the Sports Illustrated covers and all that. The notion was, well, he's going to succeed right away.

But at the same time, simultaneously, what Jerry Krause is doing with the Bulls is he's rebuilding, basically. You know, it has Jordan out front, but he's basically, you know, they had a lot of high draft picks. Who are decent players, Orlando Woolrich and Sidney Green and players who could have developed or did develop in other places. And he traded all of them off essentially for drafts. Pets. Draft picks, like, you know, they got Pippin and they got Horace Grant. And he would sort of, it wasn't called that then, you know, because teams didn't really dump for the draft back then because they've sent, in fact, we needed the attendance. And really, Jordan should have been with the Pacers. One of the great overlook stories is the reason Portland had the pick was the Pacers had lost James Edwards. And for attendance needed a center. So they traded the pick to Portland. And that's how Portland ended up. You know, I'm using. it for Sanbuoy and all. But anyway, so Jordan comes in and the notion is, well, he's this great figure. He's got to compete against bird, magic, Isaiah. And they've got built teams. And he's looking around on his roster and goes, well, you know, I've got, I don't, what have I got here?

I got Kyle Macy. And I got all these, you know, and so, you know, that was sort of the joke about, you know, they said, well, Jordan couldn't make guys better. And he used to say, well, yeah, If I had James Worthy and Kareem, I could make them better. I got Mike Brown and said, Dale three, I can't make them better. The MJ documentary, I thought, I remember when they made the movie Wall Street about Gordon Gecko and Michael Douglas and Oliver Stone said, I didn't try to glamorize him and make him popular. But everybody, every stockbroker wanted to be Gordon Gecko. and the faults of Gecko became sort of romanticized. And Sam, when I watched the MJ documentary, now obviously MJ had some say in it,

but even the warts and, you know, Will Purdue saying things about it. Yeah, I found it maybe it's because the league is, you know, it's more of a three-point shooting league. It's more skilled but more finesse. I found it incredibly likable. I'm like, I miss the layering. I miss the toughness. I miss guys not all being best friends.

I was, I fell into it, Sam. I, I, that documentary, I made me like Michael Moore. What was your takeaway on it? Well,

there were a couple of takes. What, the one takeaway that I like and is sort of, one of the things that was criticized was this Hall of Fame speech where he pointed the, you know, the guy who beat him, you know,

got on the, you know, got on the varsity ahead of him. And he, he brought in different guys over the years that he, You know, he had these challenges by. And people said, well, this is horrible. You know, the call of fame, he was sort of blaming guys for the science.

And no, this is great because he showed you exactly who he is and who he's always been. And, you know, that's the attraction of it. You know, what you said, the Jordan rules when I wrote it, and one of the reasons why I was surprised is because I saw it as a sympathetic portrait. You know, if you, you know, and I know, our version of Twitter back then was headlines and things taken out of, you know, context or whatever, where people would complain it to us about. You took it out of context. The headline didn't represent the story and all. And so there was a lot of that with the Jordan rules, you know, just like now, people didn't always read back then either.

But when I depict, you know, my depiction, because I'd like Jordan, I'd been around them a long time, I really appreciated his competitiveness and his zeal and his willingness to try to pull this group along, you know, kind of with him. And what he went through, how to Pistons attacked him. You know, but not only that, you know, I remember the one year the MVP vote. You know, Magic was very close with Isaiah. We were sitting in a locker room and it came down. Magic had won the MVP and all that reported. and he was very gracious.

And before the book, we had a good relationship. I'm sitting with him in the locker room. It happened to be in Detroit. And all the reporters, when he turns to me and he goes, anybody but that guy, meaning magic, meaning they held up magic all the time and saying, he's the guy who made everybody better, not me. And so that sort of thing. So I sort of viewed it sympathetically, but, you know, the notion of the fights and, you know, taking Horace's grand dinner.

you don't deserve to eat because you play. You know, it sort of looked both ways. Sam Smith joining us, writer for the Bulls.com. It is one of the things that is attractive about Michael. I couldn't watch a 10-part Brady or LeBron documentary and that social media has shown me all I ever need to see about any player, what they eat, their family. I get now their opinions on vaccines, their political opinions.

You know, Michael, as we peel the layers back on Michael on the air movie, I didn't know that much about him because we didn't know that much about anybody. And that I think what makes Michael appealing to me, the journey for basketball, Sam, was not as grooved as it is today through AAU. It's just not. It's just grooved. Now, they're all friends. Nobody's battling for a piece of the pie. Otto Porter can make $200 million to different world. And I do think the struggle, although Michael's struggle is less than others, hell, the Jerry Krause stuff, it is fascinating.

I'm watching the Sonny Vaccaro stuff and, you know, the toughness of his mother. There's parts of the privacy of Michael. You were on an inner circle for a long time. But I view him now is a bit of a private figure. How would you describe that? Even as an owner of the Bobcats, he never really talked much. Right.

And actually, that was what was great about the documentary The Last Dance, because it really was the first time he sat down and showed you who he was, kind of relaxed, didn't kind of do it through a commercial because, you know, he was always, he always felt, it wasn't so much he was, wanted to promote himself,

but he felt an obligation. I mean, he really had a good upbringing. I didn't see the sneaker movie yet, but his mother, I know, had a huge part. He was very close with his father. They were really best friends more than father's son. You know, and that loss was tremendous. But he always felt as a responsibility and obligation to his sponsors. So I remember him talking about that, to act in a certain way as a result of that.

And so, you know, he finally, now, he saw over the years, and I credit him for that. Actually, I remember he wasn't selling himself. I remember one time, and he'd become tremendously popular, and he was popular all over the world. I mean, I remember the North Korean dad who gone, now, the crazy sons there, but they were sending for bulls memorabilia back then from North Korea. You know, and when David Stern went to China, he always talked about, you know, China didn't know anything about the NBA. They hadn't heard of anybody, but they had asked him about the red oxen, the bull. That's all they knew, you know, and so, but as a result, you know, he understood that, but at the same time, and we see

why he's made fortunes, billionaire, whatever. I remember a Japanese company. had contacted him and said they would pay him a million dollars for an appearance. And this was like 1988, 88, 89, something like that. And he said, I'm not just going to sell myself like that. I'm not going to do that kind of stuff. So, you know, this sort of, I'm not surprised that he's sort of, he's that way now. And that's why the documentary was great, because you're not going to see him otherwise. He's not going to be around.

The NBA has brought out everybody, Bill Russell and Oscar Robertson, All-Star Games and Finals, and they named the awards. He's the one who never shows up anywhere. You know, you never see him anywhere. He's at all these All-Star games, you know, for Nike, but you've never seen him in public. And, you know, I wish he would a little more. But, you know, he doesn't want to sell himself and cheapen it, really. And it's really been smart. Yeah, I mean, privacy and not knowing everything about you, I remember Jack Nicholson, the great owner saying he wouldn't go on these shows when he was promoting a movie.

And he's like, why would I give me away for free? I want that theater experience to be really special. And I think about that all the time. I see everybody putting their meals and their vacations on Instagram. And I think, you know, it's okay to have some private stuff. your life. I don't need to market my every time I go walk on the beach in Florida. The ownership in Charlotte, Sam, I've said this, and it may be unfair, that Michael was always, first of all, he was a very good decision maker, David Falk, Phil Knight, Phil Jackson.

He tended to have excellent judgment and be pretty picky on the people that he would choose to guide his journey. So he had, and by the way, I'm watching Lamar Jackson now. He has his mom as an agent. Now he got an agent the day that's not registered. Some guys don't make great decisions. Michael made, and LeBron's done this, Michael made very solid decisions,

Sonny Vicaro on the people that pitched him and he listened to. I didn't expect the ownership with Charlotte to be great because I always felt Michael was great at elevating Michael, but to be an executive, a coach, or an owner, it's a lot of giving. It is to some degree elevating others. Is it an unfair characteristic to say Michael was better at elevating Michael, his brand, than his net worth than sometimes elevating those around him?

He didn't have the patience for it. I don't know about that. That's a hard one. First of all, ownership, management is an awful lot of luck. You know, the Bulls lucked in the Jordan in 84. had they not, they probably wouldn't have had any titles. They would have had, you know, 25, 50 years. The Phoenix Suns have never won a title despite whatever.

And so, you know, you got to get lucky. Charlotte has never gotten lucky. I remember, you know, people like to think fans, media, whatever, that just because you've succeeded in something, that you'll succeed, you know, because of what you did in your specialty. You know, and it's sort of like all these coaches who sort of stood next to Bill Parcells, you know, just because you're around somebody who's successful doesn't mean you're going to be successful. And so, you know, it's difficult to sort of pick guys.

Michael, you know, had difficulty. You know, who exactly could he trust in those situations? And so I remember when the Bulls, you know, 98, they broke up and, you know, I went in the last fans. And so the fans in the media, the notion was, well, let Michael run the team. You know, he's a winner, you know. And so we don't hear that much anymore since the Charlotte situation. And I don't think it's a case of Michael being concerned about celebrating himself. I don't think that what he was about. It's just, you know, you don't go to school for management of a sports team. There's no, there's no degree, you know, there's no test like to be a CPA or a lawyer. or something like that.

So, you know, who does these things? How do you do it? You know, it's a lot of luck. And he just hasn't gotten lucky. I mean, that's sort of a simplified version of it. He's been in the lottery. You know, you get your bad, you don't get LeBron. You get, you know, you get the second guy.

It makes tremendous differences. And so, you know, now I see he's going to cash out. You know, in the league wanted him in. David Stern wanted him in and basically almost gave him that franchise, you know, to have him involved in the game. Basically, I think he just paid off the debts. And so one thing Michael has always done, he used to joke about OPM, you know, the way to operate a business with other people's money. So he was always, he was always bright about that.

And he always understood equity and he always understood value. And he's tried, but you can see in the last couple of years, he's lost the enthusiasm for it. just because it's so hard. The irony is, you know, on the ownership, the governors, whatever they call themselves now, Michael got, was put in charge of the Labor Committee of the owners. And he was appalled at the salaries that they started paying, you know, because, you know, he made, at the time when he made the 30 million, it was, you know, 10 million more. Patrick Ewing, I think, made 18 or 19. The next highest were like 10 or 12. You know, so he's making double or triple whatever anyone is. And, you know, now it's sort of, you know, on the bottom side of a neck stealing. He was just sort of appalled at the salaries that were becoming. Right. But I don't think it was an ego thing as much as it's really a hard thing to do.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human between. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Fandul's app is safe, secure, easy to use, and you get paid your winnings really fast. Just go to Fanduel.com, sign up today. Claim your no-swet first bet. then you can wager on everything from the money line to point spreads to which team will be cutting down the net. Fandul's app is safe, secure, easy to use, and you get paid your winnings really fast. The no sweat first bet up to $1,000. promo code Colin. Make every moment more this season with Fandul.

21 plus in select states. Fandul's offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem? call 1-800 gambler or visit fanduel.com slash RG, Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, Virginia. 1-800 next step or text next step to 533442, Arizona. 1-88-78-9-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat, Connecticut. 1-800-9 with it, Indiana.

1-800, 522-4,700 to visit KSgambling, help.com, Kansas, 18777-7-0 stop, Louisiana. Call 1-800-3-27-50-50 or visit wwwW-MA underscorehelp.org slash problem gambling. Gamblinghelp.org, Maryland. 18778-8, Hope, New York, or text Hope, New York, 467-369, New York, 1-800, 522, 4,700, Wyoming, or visit www.1-800-gambler.net, West Virginia. When you look back at covering Michael,

did you instantly know because the first couple years I can remember Orlando Warridge, if I recall Quentin Daly, it was guys that needed the ball. And Michael, you know, was not going to suffer those guys gladly. Like he wanted the ball and he was better. And he was, I imagine at practice was letting them know on a daily basis he was better. But when did you know? Because he didn't average a ton of points in college. when did you have this sense and talk to other people or maybe you just, it was your personal insight that you thought, boy, this is different.

This may be the most gifted basketball player I've ever seen. I mean, you're in my generation, Sam. I grew up and I saw the old wilt and the young Kareem. Michael didn't, Dr. J, but Dr. J didn't have the mid-range dependable game. He was spectacular, but he wasn't as reliant. relentless nightly every possession like Michael. Was there a moment that kind of crystallized it for you when you really felt going back sitting on that press table and you thought, boy, this may be the greatest basketball player we're ever going to see? Well, you know, I don't know if we went to greatest ever early, but we went pretty spectacular early.

You know, the old joke, of course, was the only one who could hold him under 20 points of game with Dean Smith. So this is the first practice. And Rod Thorne is the Bulls GM had been the GM for like seven or eight years. Had lottery picks almost every year. And the team has won in 25, 28 games. And so Jordan is the first practice. Kevin Lockery is the coach. And this is the first practice of Jordan's first season.

And Bill Blair, as I remember, was the assistant then. And Rob can't go to the first practice. Something business thing came up. And so Rod misses the first practice. Bill Blair calls him at the end of the first practice. Rod's telling me this story. And Bill Blair says, you finally didn't screw up a draft. He said, we have never seen anything like this guy.

He came in with all the, and you mentioned Woolrich was a top 10 pick. Quentin Daly's a top 10 pick, Sidney Green, Ronnie Lester, all top 10 picks. And he just blew out everybody, the first couple of practices. He's blowing by everybody. He's dunking on everybody. You know, there's that famous story when he came in as a freshman at North Carolina. And the first thing he did, he went to the board, and he started writing the times, listing the names of Worthy, Perkins, all these All-Americans,

saying how many times he dunked on them. So that's the way he started at North Carolina. And that's the way it came into the Bulls. Okay, so I hear these stories that are coming out of training camp. And we go see him and still training camp. And walks into the season, I think third game in, he hits a winner in Milwaukee, like six games in, 49 points against, and then was Portland or something. You know, we're bringing in Portland media is all saying, we've got a center, this guy's not special.

We got Clyde Drexler. And I remember the Chicago guys are saying, watch this. Where do you see this? So we didn't exactly know, say, okay, this guy's going to be, you know, better than Oscar. or bird or magic or will, whatever. But this was different. This was different than anything we'd seen because of the combination, you know, of the athleticism,

the drive and the incredible competitiveness and this will to win, win everything, you know, which sort of evolved and we saw more from year to year. You know, there's always this debate, the greatest and who's the great. You know, and it's arbitrary. LeBron's got the most points now. Now, you know, in my era going back, you know, the two greatest things I remember basketball is wealth coming to the NBA and Kareem coming to the NBA, you know, winning basically

everything out of college. And so they said, well, how can George, you know, Bill Russell's got the most championships, Karim and now LeBron's got the most points. How could this guy be the greatest ever? And one thing I always point to with me is that nobody in sports and certainly in American sports, and I can't imagine worldwide sports, has crossed over and had the influence on society that he has because of his basketball. The shoes become fashion. Bill Walton likes to tell the story, you know, he's the MVP's in Portland. Phil Knight's there. Phil Knight comes to him,

say, you know, we're going to put your name on sneakers. We're going to do this whole thing about, you know, Air Bill or whatever. He says, who's going to buy sneakers with my name on it? What a stupid idea Yeah, that is. You know, and so baldness is okay now. I can start shaving my head. Men are wearing jewelry, long, you know, long shorts, fashion, all these things that transcend the game attached to him. That's what makes you the greatest. That's a Babe Ruth kind of thing. That's an Ali kind of thing where you can't measure them only in the sport, but you can measure their effect on the world and society. And his has been, to me, more than anybody that we've ever experienced. Bulls.com, Sam Smith. Does Michael visit Chicago a lot, golf tournaments, Bulls games?

His mother does some charity work, some fairly substantial charity work, I heard, but does Michael ever visit Chicago now? Never. As far as I can tell, he has never been here. I think his house is still for sale.

Up in Highland Park, he built this mansion, kind of thing, which is well overvalued. And I mean, not in a bad neighborhood, but it's just near the highway. It's not, and it's been for sale like 10, 12 years or something. Nobody, you know, buy it's got 23s all over the gate and stuff like that. But as far as I know, I've never heard him being here. Wow.

You know, it's interesting. You know, a passionate relationship with Chicago leaves. Very close relationship with Barclay. It ends. it is an interesting personality. It's not a tick. It's just who he is. I don't know.

How do you explain that? Those are both unique. You know, I don't know of another player. Maybe Brady won't go back to New England. I don't know it. I find it just an interesting personality, behavioral personality element. What do you make of that? Well, again, because of the sort of the Howard Hughes,

sort of element to him over the years that he wasn't going to make himself public. And, you know, he's, as I mentioned before, he doesn't want to be, you know, a public figure. He always used to talk way early, way early. And actually, he would tell us, he said, you know, once I'm gone, you'll never see me again. And, you know, there was an element of that. I remember him talking about that in the 80s, that I'm going to finish my career. And when my career is over, you will never see me. It's sort of been true. But he always, the other thing he used to say, too, I'm never going to be a show pony. And I think that's why he doesn't go at the All-Star game or at least come out publicly.

You don't see him in public much. Doesn't, you know, you know, I mean, can you imagine the amount of money more? I mean, you know, with rich people, enough never seems enough. They're always doing something. Can you imagine the amount of money Michael Jordan could make in appearances or things, other things he did in public? millions people would pay just, you know, he's probably the most famous person in the world, maybe the most beloved. But he's never, you know, he doesn't take advantage of that and he never has.

And he, and for whatever the reason was, at a young age in his 20s, he talked about that, that this is something I'll never do, that's something I'll never be a part of. I'm not going to sell myself as a commodity as a product. you know, I'm going to show what I can do. And then obviously, you know, he was secure with what they was making. But, you know, and I don't know how they depicted it in that movie. But, you know, he didn't go seek out the shoe contracts and the Nike. He was very reluctant.

And I remembered early on, you know, his mother kind of drags him out there. That's what the movie said, yeah. But also after the first deal, it was like a three or four. five year, I don't know what the first contract was. He didn't want to re-up with Nike. I remember Craig Hodges talked to him about maybe starting a local brand or something. Nike had done something. I'm sure that's not in the movie that he was upset with and he didn't want to go. He was thinking about going with another company. I think he said he said I wore converse or something in college. Maybe I'll go with them. So, you know, he was kind of, it wasn't so much

he was saying, I'm Michael Jordan. I can do what I want. Is that, you know, there's not my life to sell myself as a sneaker salesman. Now, he's obviously, you know, turned it in, but he's turned it. The other thing, he's turned it into a quality product. And I think that's what he's proud about, that things associated with Michael are about quality. And they're not cheap, and it's not a show pony just for the money. Sam Smith, covering the NBA a long time. Milwaukee is the best team I've seen this year. I think they have shot makers, three elite defenders with Drew Holiday, Lopez and Janice. I just don't know situationally if I like Boston as much this year as last.

I don't know about Wiggins or KD. The West is wide open. I don't trust Denver. The best team you've seen this year live, who would it be? Yeah, even though the Bulls have beat him two out of three, Milwaukee. But I think one of them, Janus got hurt early in one of the games. And Chris Middleton wasn't playing. But yeah, I mean, the West is as even as, you know, unpowerful, you can say that, as it's ever been.

You know, there's no dominant player, really, in the West, you know, with LeBron situation as health. And that's really a change in the NBA, that there's no great teams anymore. There's no, there's no super team put together. And so, you know, I kind of agree with you with Boston. When I watch Boston, it's all, and I don't, you know, nobody cares. I don't like the way the games played now with this proliferation of three-pointers. And, you know, it's like to sort of get off my lawn stuff, you know, who cares about what you say? You know, but you watch Boston and Tatum and Brown, and they'll shoot like 10 or 12 threes, and they miss them all.

And instead of saying, well, you know, okay, I'm not on. Maybe I'll go to the basket. They'll just shoot 10 more. So it just comes down to, you know, if they're going to make them or not. You know, I think the notion is they're probably thinking. four out of seven games we could make enough threes to win. Yeah. And so, you know, Philadelphia is flooded.

And both you were in the Philly, got Philly twice this week. And Hardin is just kind of a shell of himself. And, you know, he's not, you know, sort of Scotty Pippin number two to Embed. Embedd is really carrying that thing on his own. Yeah. That's why I think MVP would be legitimate, you know, much more legitimate for him and deserving. and, you know, one of those three, you know, to me, Yannas probably is the best overall player, but he's got really a lot of help. Drew Holiday and Middleton and Lopez. There's a lot there,

and there's some depth. Yes. Bobby Portis, they picked up, you know, he hadn't even- Jay Crowder. They picked him like Jay Crowder, but they also picked up Gorin Dragas from the Bulls. The Bulls let Dragash go. He went up there. He hadn't played anything, but clearly to save him just for the playoff. A guy can walk in and make a shot, run a team. So to me, they seem like the only really loaded team. Boston, I don't like their depth. I don't think they got much depth. You know, Cleveland's just there. So it on the edge, the rest of the east is just trying to fight and to get in the playoffs. And the West, any one of those first eight or nine teams can win. I don't think any, I don't see any dominance from any of those teams. Yeah, Dallas and Sacramento don't play defense.

doesn't have a bench. Warriors are absolutely missing wing and front court scoring. It's all guard scoring. And I just don't trust the team led by Kauai Leonard. I think he's a remarkable talent, but I think he's a guy you can add to an already baked culture. I don't think you can build your culture around him. I think he's a tough teammate, you know, shows up some nights at 3.45 and says, I'm not playing. I've been told. So I think it's wide open. Sam, what a pleasure for me. writer for bulls.com. The 1990, New York Times best setter of the Jordan Rules

is a terrific read. It's journalism at its highest form. And again, it's just great talking to you on an annual basis. I always get smarter and learn stuff, Sam, thank you. Colin, yeah, enjoyed it. And maybe we can make it six months next time.

Make sure to check out the Dremont Green show. I brought Dremont Green into the volume because one of the more entertaining voices in sports, unique perspective, understands behind the rope. Also chops up with guests like Gary Payton, Zach Levine, Tracy McGrady. Make sure download the Draymond Green Show wherever you get your podcast, only on the volume podcast network.

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