The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - Ant Could Become “Face Of The League”, “No Show” Clippers, Caitlin Clark’s Pro Outlook

Episode Date: May 6, 2024

First, Colin starts by explaining the importance of on-air chemistry in television, and why NBC needs to proceed with caution if they end up bringing Inside the NBA over to their network… especially if Ernie Johnson won’t leave TNT. (3:00) Then he’s joined by Jason Timpf, host of “Hoops Tonight” on the Volume to dissect all the NBA playoff action! They start with the heightened importance of the Nuggets vs Wolves series after the Wolves steal game 1 (7:30), why it has the potential to catapult Anthony Edwards to “face of the league” status (9:30), and why he doesn’t have a true comp (20:00). Then they break down yet another no-show playoff exit for the Clippers and (25:45) debate whether the Mavs are a true title contender (30:00) They ask whether the Knicks can make the leap or if they’ll regress next year (34:30), and what move do the Suns need to make (39:00) Colin argues that not all the criticism of Darvin Ham is fair (46:30) they give their outlook on Caitlin Clark as a WNBA player (54:00), and Colin explains why she’ll get him to watch more WNBA (59:00).   (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates!  #Volume #Herd #HoopsTonightSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Dot panini America.net. Got that? So you can be a collector of physical cards or a digital enthusiast. Panini America has you covered. They have popular cards from Don Russ, Prism, select, and more. So if you're into trading cards, Panini America is the way to go, especially if you're into digital trading cards. Visit Panini America.net or download the Panini direct app today. It's the official trading cards and NFTs of the Colin Cowherd draft coverage. You're into it. They're into you, and they deliver. Prism, Don Russ, select, got them all, all the top cards and more. So I've been reading about NBC attacking NBA basketball negotiations. And if they took them from TNT, what would they do with the inside the NBA crew? Well, first of all, the inside the NBA crew

sometimes is better than the actual games, especially in the regular season. I think it would be a huge mistake to break him up. Now, Ernie Johnson, who is the host, the affable host, the beloved host, who, you know, he just moves the pieces around, he gets out of the way. He's, he is perfect. I do believe you could find another host. You'd never replace Ernie in terms of just how the players feel about Ernie. You'd have to get a host that the players voted on. You couldn't just insert somebody from another network and say, make it work. Ernie has so much respect and admiration from the crew. Now, Barclay obviously drives the number. And Ernie Johnson would be the first to admit that. Shaq and Charles really have, you know,

some nights they're feuding. Other nights, they're hysterical laughing at each other. Kenny Smith, more of the straight man. But it reminds me a little bit of the Fox, broadcasting crew on Sundays where, you know, Bradshaw was the funny guy, Howie's this great man, Jimmy Johnson's the coach, and he really is a coach in real life and on the set. He kind of runs it all. And then Kurt Men, if he knows when to jump in, push the buttons, poking the ribs, move out. Then you have Strayhand Jay Glazer. But there are, there's usually a star of a show, a straight man, and Ernie provides hosting

capabilities that the respect and the admiration he has from the guys is kind of, you won't find another Ernie, but it is led by Charles. And I think when you lose an Ernie, and that's losing something, then you have to take all of them. As great as Charles Barkley is, the chemistry is a big part of this. And in my years of doing radio and TV, and I've been doing this now 30 years, it's the one thing that the really good executives have always understood and the average executives overlook is chemistry. I've had multiple partners, radio TV, but yet I've had one or two shows. The chemistry was outstanding. It's hard to explain. It's hard to foster. There's just like, you know, it. It just works. Maybe there's a mutual respect. You have something in common.

Somebody finishes your sentences. But if you're going to lose Ernie, who has reportedly said, hey, I'm staying with TNT, and you're NBC, and you're going to bring that crew over, if they did, in fact, win their rights, you've got to lean on that crew, and they've got to make that higher. They've got to have run through after run through, because the idea you can just insert an NBC guy into that and it's going to work, that would be an executive that doesn't understand fit. And I think a lot of times, you know, the Fox crew or the inside the NBA crew, it's hard. Chemistry is hard on these shows. I mean, Stephen A. Smith at ESPN, you know, he and Max Kellerman. At some point, Stephen A went public and said, yet, this just doesn't work. Skip and Shannon

worked for a while. Then it didn't work. Mike and the bad dog in New York, I listened to them for years. I thought it was really good. I could tell on the air when they got tired of each other. They got real snippy at each other, very impatient with each other. You could just feel it. It was like, you're driving in the car on the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut. I'm driving, you know, going to the city or coming out and I'm listening for an hour and a half. I got a long listen. And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not sure this sounds right. And I just, I think my overall point on this is inside the NBA works. Yes, Charles is the star.

But it works because of chemistry. It's terrific. They all like each other. They all respect each other. And it's like an NBA locker room. It takes one turd to ruin it because it's a, you're flying together, you're eating together, you're hanging out. It's not like an NFL locker room. Offense goes here, defense goes there.

Baseball, you know, during the game, a third of the roster is down on the the bullpen. Man, you get, you get these crews, you know, four or five guys, one bad fit, blows it up, blows it up. And I think they've done such a good job. It is, to me, during the regular season, I generally like the show more than the games. Now, once the playoffs start, I'm into the games. But I think you can't, people are going to watch the NFL regardless of how good or bad the shows are. But the NBA's different. It's a long regular season. Even the players, there's a lot of apathy. Inside the NBA in my lifetime is very unique. We'll stick around for that. I mean, I can think Fox does a great job, and NBC and the NFL's not quite as good,

but I'm watching the games. That's not the case. Inside the NBA gets me to a TV during the regular season when sometimes I'm not sure the players even care. All right, NBA playoffs and full swing. Jason Timp, host of Hoops Tonight is joining us. You know, I was watching the T-WOL. and nuggets. And I thought this would be a very long series. I said six or seven, I'll take Denver. But I was watching Charles Barkley after, and his interpretation was sort of mine, which is you watched these guys play. Minnesota's bigger. Minnesota's deeper. And there was clearly an athletic advantage. They're just, they're more athletic. They're, I mean, some of that's ant, maybe a large part of it's ant, but Yolkich isn't highly what you would call dynamic. He's just a great

basketball player. Jamal Murray again. He never made an All-Star team. I wouldn't call him dynamic. He's a shot maker. Michael Porter is. Gordon is just a relentless energy guy. But when I watch that series, and I don't want to overreact, but I was like, oh, they can throw a lot of bodies at Denver. A lot of bodies.

They go about eight deep. You know, there's not much of a Denver bench. And my take is it's hard to win when they're deeper, they're more athletic. And part of this is, and I said this. about two weeks ago, I said, it's an inflection point for Aunt Edwards. Is he going to become Dominique, spectacular,

but can't get through these profoundly deep teams, no titles, and we just have great highlights, or Jordan, that you've got to win two to three or four, and it's like, now, this is the face of the league. And Wemby and Ant feel like

those are the two guys that should be the face of the league. So this series, to me, it's a lot bigger than people think. It's not just, well, Ant goes down. It's like Denver may have a bench at some point. You know, like this Denver team, you beat them now, they'll probably have to react to you. Also, if Minnesota loses, they may not keep Carl Anthony Towns.

So this Twin Towers thing, although it's worked, it may be more experimental if they got doused in five games in this series. So I feel like I'm watching this fascinating inflection point with Ant, as he is now, Now, if they get to the finals, they match up very well with Boston. You're like, is this Jordan's first title? Am I overreacting to it? No, not at all. I mean, it's been the best player in the playoffs so far. He's literally been the best guy.

No question. No question. He soundly outplayed Nicole Yokic last night. But it's funny, when you're watching the games live, there's always like kind of a narrative that tends to take shape. And there was a lot of focus on like, oh, Jamal Murray is struggling. Oh, Nas Reid had a scoring run in the first. fourth quarter. You focus on these specific

things, but I went back and looked through the tape, and as I watched, one of the biggest things that stood out to me is Yokic just didn't play very well. He had seven turnovers. He was completely caught off guard by a lot of, like, the pressure that Minnesota brought. They were picking him up full court randomly. He had to travel in the

back court where Nas Reid randomly picked him up in the full court. There, Rudy Gobert was kind of in his head, kind of stunting, faking like he was going to step up, and then he'd get back and deflect that lob past to Aaron Gordon. and Yokich had a bad night. Anthony Edwards came in and just completely cleaned house.

And so a lot of times, like, I look at it and it's like, if you're expecting Jamal Murray to just break out against the best perimeter defender in the league in Jada McDaniels, that's probably not going to happen. That's right. But Yokic does have the ability to flip the script in the series. He can be much better. And then one of the big things Michael Malone was talking about after the game,

he really didn't like their defensive effort in the second half. And generally, I agree. They let Aunt get way, they let Aunt get way too comfortable in the mid-range when he was isolating those smaller Denver guards. And he's so dead. He's hitting that fade away at like 50%. So, like, you can't leave him there. You have to get out and, like, kind of crowd him more. And so I think a better defensive effort to do a better job containing Ant.

And then Yokic actually inflicting himself on the series as the best player in the world can flip the script. But to your point, it is absolutely an inflection point. Because if Minnesota wins this series and Ant Outplayed Yokic, then he just beat the defending champs and the best player in the world without home court advantage and without a legitimate co-star. And if you look, Jason, the face of the league right now is really Tatum's personality. He really is a giver. He's never a taker. You almost have to push him, nudge him to take. So he doesn't, he looks like to me he loves being an all-star, making good money and winning games.

he doesn't have any real agenda to be the face of the league. Yokic, most of the European guys are not interested. So, like, it's open for Ant. Wembe's not there yet. Yokic isn't interested. You know, Janus has never really moved the needle in terms of, like, ratings. M. B's not healthy. So as I'm watching him, first half, he was insane.

And then he was very quiet in the third. But as I'm watching him, I'm like, you know, Jordan had these dead quarters. I mean, Michael was classic for when his head would steam. You're like, okay, Michael's on one. And then Michael, Michael really got, he was like a great baseball pitcher that he knew the 12 pitches he had to get people out. Like Michael knew gear shift. LeBron's gotten very good at that. Like, LeBron's always hoping his teammates get the game going.

And if they don't, then he steps in. And then at the seven-minute mark, they get him out. But I watched Ant, and I'm like, don't be too critical of him. 25 points in an NBA game and a half is a lot of work. That's a lot of energy. And then in the second half, you're like, first of all, dumb tech. Talk about that all day. But my take was, my take was kind of like it's there for the taking.

It feels like Denver's not equipped on the bench. You know, they could die to have a six man who could play 20 minutes of defense. This may be the moment. All these great stars have moments. It took Jordan years and years. The difference is Jordan had like iconic teams, Pist and Celtics in front of him. Denver hasn't risen to that. So as good as the West is, Jason, it feels like this is the moment.

to seize it. It's absolutely there for the taking. Again, I still think Denver is going to win the series. I certainly think it's way too early to just to bail on them entirely. An important element to that game, too, is they spotted Minnesota an 18 to 4 lead. And Michael Malone talked after the game, Jamal Murray didn't practice all week because of his calf. KCP's got a bad ankle.

So, like, they were, they were easing their way into the series in a lot of ways. Also, just a little brief story. Like, I play a lot of pickup basketball. but then during the summer, a lot of the college kids around town and the guys who play overseas, they come home and I work out with them. And there's always like an adjustment for me going from lower level competition to higher level competition. And there's no doubt that Minnesota is a much higher level defense than the Lakers were.

And so there's going to be a little bit of like a, oh, that pass, I need to put a little more on it. I need to be more accurate. I can't be as sloppy with my handle. This shot that I got off against Austin Reeves, I won't be able to get off. against Jaden McDaniels. Like all these, there's going to be an adjustment period for Denver in this series to kind of get used

to that offense. That said, as far as Aint goes, like, it, it's, there's still so much room for him to improve because that quiet third quarter, it got tired. You could tell Aunt got tired in that game. Yeah.

So there's going to be an energy management piece that he figures out. There's going to be like a reading the floor better piece that he figures out. There's like, there was a little bully ball possession on Reggie Jackson where he just walked. It was the play he got the tech.

He walked him right on. underneath the rim and put it in. It was the easiest bucket he got all night. Like, there's going to be a point where he realizes all these guards can't guard him. And he starts destroying people even closer to the rim. And so the sky's the limit for him. I got in trouble with Celtics fans for comparing the two of them. It was a mailbag question. But then I started thinking about it. I'm like, no, this is, this is a real thing here. This is who's the next great American player? Because there is something to be said about being the best American player in the NBA from a marketability standpoint, right?

Sure. Like, there's a reason why a huge portion of my listeners are overseas. It's because the best players in the league are all from overseas. And so they've got these huge fan bases from Serbia and in the Philippines and things like that. There's all these guys that are supporting these players. And we need an American star that can come up and kind of take the mantle. And to your point, like Jason Tatum has, he just doesn't quite have the personality for it. But the biggest piece and the main reason why I think Ant is better than him has to do with the

athleticism piece. Ants can have Bradley Beal on the wing and just utterly blow by him off the dribble and then dunk on Kevin Durant like he's not even there. And it's not to say that Jason Tatum hasn't had big dunks in his career because he's got great size, but his first step is not nearly as dynamic as Anthony Edwards is. And so when he faces a really good defender in a late game situation,

he can struggle to get to his spots sometimes. Ant never struggles getting to his spot. lot. He's going to get a good look up. It's just a question of whether or not he can make it. And to his credit, the two big things that he's figured out that have been his inflection between the Dominique and MJ kind of like a fork in the road. The split for him has been, he's been better at reading the floor. He was the guy who got Nasree going last night. It was the banked in three. That was a kickout from Ant when his man helped. The driving and one on the baseline. That was the skip pass from Ant when he was reading a pick and roll coverage. And then the second piece of it is that jump shooting piece. He is deadly in that. that 14 to 18 foot range. And so he has a shot he can go to where it's like this is going to go in a majority of the time. It gives him like a certain level of resilience in the playoffs. And so I just think I think he's just better. I think he's the best American player in the league of that generation. And I think he has a chance to take that mantle. Well, to be the best player, it's like being the best country Western star. It's not just your songs are popular and easy to dance to. There's often

something that really touches people. If you look at the faces of the league, I don't know if he was a face of a league, but the first player that caught my attention in the 70s was Dr. Jay. Nobody played like that. Right. Nobody played like that, his hand size. And then after that was Magic Johnson. We'd never had a six, eight and a half point guard. And then it was Larry Bird alongside Magic. We'd never had a forward easily be the best shooter and passer in the league. Like he didn't play, he played like a two guard. And then you go into Shaq. Okay, that's, there's nothing been that powerful.

Big guys don't run the floor. And then, you know, and before him, it's Michael, the greatest player of all time with great flair. Kobe was never really the face of the league, but was like Michael Light. Then you go into LeBron, arguably the greatest player, the great Swiss Army knife that does everything differently. So all those players were like, to some degree, a little bit of unicorns athletically, or they had a demand. mention to their game. They still show Dr. J's dunk against Michael Cooper. It's still the greatest dunk in league history in a game. It's the 70s. It's 50 years ago with all these athletes. So with Antskine, I've watched Jason Tatum live three times. I've watched them 100 times.

He's very good. It's not historically unique looking. He's just really clever and really smooth, good two-way player. Ant does stuff and you're like, okay, sorry to put the drink down. I got to watch the replay on that. Like, even NBA guys are like, whoa, whoa. you see him come off the bench. So Wembe has some of that. Wemby could block eight blocks a game. You know, I mean, he could have a stretch. Like, nobody looks like that.

So I do think Ant's advantage is there's a lot of wow stuff. I mean, I remember when Shaq came in the league, Jerry Tarkaney, and I covered him at UNLV. He told me when Shaq was a sophomore, I was at a place called the late Jerry Tarkini, and I covered him in Vegas at a place called Sharks or Tarks or Sharks. And we were sitting at a bar, me and a guy named John Henderson,

and a retired sports writer now in Italy. And he said, there's a kid named Shaquille O'Neal at Elshu. And he goes, I know you've seen highlights. He's going to be the greatest basketball player you've ever seen when he plays. And, you know, Jerry was a very good recruiter. And, you know, and he just said, there's never been anything like him. And that's kind of the sentence for the faces of the league. There's never been anything like him.

And my take is he's a little Dominique, a little Dominique, a woman. little Michael? I mean, what's his comp? That feels like the right combs. He's bigger and stronger than the other two guards that came before him too. Like, he's got a little bit of like the downhill force that you saw from Dwayne Wade,

but he's bigger and a better shooter, right? He's got a lot of, he's got some of the, like the footwork stuff from the mid to high post. But again, like he's got like a strength and a power element to his game that even MJ and Kobe didn't have. So like,

in a weird way, this is the beautiful thing about basketball history is every, every player, it's very rare to have a guy like Kobe who's like almost the spitting image of the guy he was trying to be like, right? Like, Kobe and MJ were so similar. Ants kind of got his own unique flare on it. It's like, it's like Dwayne Wade meets better jump shooting meets the body of a middle linebacker in the NFL. Like it's, it's hard to describe. But like, and then again, the big piece of it is like, this guy's going to Kevin Durant and he's like, yeah, you're my favorite player. but, you know, I'm busting your ass, right?

It's like this weird, like, shit talking, mixed with respectful, mixed with, like, incredible aggression. But he's also just got this huge personality. And that, to me, is a big part of the marketability element where, like, I could see him being a superstar in the league for decades. The NBA playoffs are heating up. Man, they have been so good. I know it's over, but Lakers Nuggets may have been a five-game series.

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Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became. became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes.

Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tontons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You see this in all sports where, you know, somebody struggles in postseason. Dak Prescott has multiple times. He's still going to get paid in the NFL. it's not like it doesn't happen in the NFL. But it is interesting. In the NFL, if you can't stay healthy and you're always hurt at the end of the year, teams move off you because they can move off you.

NBA teams, it's not that easy, right? The contracts have to match. It's harder to trade really good players in the NBA. But the Clippers remind me of the friend who's fun to hang out with, but if you ever call them to go to the airport of the hospital, they just don't show up. Like, it's the same. I mean, I never know if Kauai's playing. Hardin and Westbrook scare me to death in the postseason.

I think Paul George is underrated. But as I watch them again, is I feel like the Clippers sort of deserve this. Like they re-sign Kauai. Most teams were like, no, like, we're out. It's one thing if you're injured, Jason. It's another if you're nonverbal. And I mean, you're not sure at 345 as a head coach if he's going to be in the mood to play. That's why Popovich just said, I'm out.

I'm done. I want to feel bad for teams that get eliminated due to injuries, but I'm kind of over the Clippers. I mean, is that unfair? No, not at all. I mean, in the weeks leading up to the first round series, we didn't know whether or not he was going to play. Neither did the Clippers staff.

Like, those questions to Ty Lou, he's like, I don't know, we'll see. I don't know, we'll see. He just doesn't know, right? And honestly, I feel bad because if you're a Clippers fan, I don't even have any sort of advice or any sort of like situation that that would lead you to have an optimistic perspective moving forward. I understand why you'd run it back next season in particular because brand new arena, you can't go into the brand new arena with a rebuilding situation, right? And I thought one of the specific things that this shined a light on is Paul George and James Hardin is not enough either.

It's been one of the biggest things that stood out to me from this postseason run. The stars that have real physical gifts, and I mean like a superpower of some kind, in terms of their physical advantages, they are thriving. But the ones that are relying almost solely on skill are really struggling. And I thought that that Maverick series was a perfect example of that. Luca's big. He's just bigger and stronger than the vast majority of the guys he's going against. So he can get a little bit of an angle, shoot that gap, bump you with his left shoulder,

and get to a little short shot in the lane that he can make it a high percentage. And that's how Luca got going in that series was closer to the basket. His pull-up jumper was broke that entire series. Kyrie Irving, he has an elite first step. He's super quick. And that in conjunction with his skill allows him to get open. James Hardin is just a better version of DeAngelo Russell. He's a skill guard that can't really shake free from people, right?

And Paul George, at this phase in his career, is a Paul, you know, kind of like not overly quick, not overly fast, skill, wing. And so when you put elite defenders on them that bring physicality, they struggle to beat people off the dribble. They struggle to get separation. Whereas the top tier guys, we're watching Anthony Edwards just cut everybody to pieces. We're watching Yokits get wherever he wants. We're watching Luca get wherever he wants. We're watching the elite athletes thrive. And so the problem is for the Clippers, why is their elite athlete? He's the one guy that has the resilience to get to his spots in the postseason. And here we are, what, four seasons in a row where he's not able to finish this grind. And so I don't know where you go

from here, but at a certain point, I think they have to give it one more shot just because of the new arena. But I think if it goes south next year, you have no choice but to do something. You know, a lot of people after Kyrie's performance in the series are pushing back and saying, well, hey, you guys all bailed on him. No, nobody bailed on their belief. He's the greatest small closer with both hands we've ever seen. Nobody bailed on that, right? Like, I still contend that, you know, Baker Mayfield's one of the top 20 quarterbacks in the world, like today. I think he's a really good quarterback. We just had pushback on some of the, you know, early behavior, maturation. Nobody denies that. And with Kyrie, my takeaway, it is working now.

And Luke is obviously great. But I do think, and I think we talked about this last time, I think they're too lopsided to win a title. Like, when they win, it's almost spectacular. Sometimes you have to win boring. Sometimes you just have to, like Denver has mastered winning, boring, trailing most of the game. The other night, I had this feeling when it was, they were down two or three with about five minutes ago. I'm like, oh, God, this is just such a Denver game. But, you know, Minnesota's a different task now. But I, I tend to think teams that need spectacular, and Kyrie's spectacular. There's not a lot of, there's not a lot of easy mid-range stuff. It's all beautiful. Do you consider them, do you consider them a title contender in

Dallas? You know, I pretty much did until the MaxiCleba injury. MaxiCleba is vitally important to a specific look that they have, which is their small ball look. When they have Cleba and PJ Washington at the four and the five next to Derek Jones Jr., Kawhi, or excuse me, Kyrie and Luca Donchich, they're very versatile defensively. To your point, like, everyone's focused on Kyrie and Luca. Everyone knew Kyrie and Luca could do what they could do. The reason why Dallas is succeeding is they had a veteran minimum signing and Derek Jones Jr. who is an absolute home run. Like, he's just giving them excellent point of attack defense. He was the guy who guarded Paul George so well in the last series. Andy's hitting spot-up shots and can drive closeouts and can

run his lane in transition. And then PJ Washington and Maxi Kleba give them these really versatile defensive forwards that can defend at the rim and out on the perimeter. Specifically for the OKC matchup, it's tricky because Chet Holmgren is a big man who can shoot. And specifically, he'll set screens and then pop to the three-point line. That is a nightmare for drop coverage bigs like Derek Lively, like Daniel Gafford. So Maxi Kleba was the remedy for that. Maxi Klebo was the guy who could switch those screens. Maxi Klebo can actually slide his feet and guard Che Guezisosos Alexander a little bit,

so you can switch those screens and things like that. He was a vital part of their defensive versatility. His injury is a massive loss for that team. I don't want to cut them out entirely from this picture, because anybody who's made it to the second round certainly has a shot. But that Klieba hit is a big loss for them. You know, I was thinking about this flying in. I hung out in a Park City with my wife this weekend of the dogs and snowed again, by the way,

as I was driving to the airport, a snowstorm. It's like May 5th. So, you know, I was thinking about this that, you know, there's been a lot of instances in my life where a team makes a run. Sacramento was like this during the Kobe years where they make a run. they get really close and you think to yourself, oh, this could be like an eight-year run. And then, like, they have a really bad loss in the playoffs and they're never the same. I mean, Sacramento, light the beam.

I mean, we all felt like this is the beginning of something big, lose to the Warriors. It just didn't feel the same this year. These young teams, Oklahoma City, Minnesota just jumped over them. Indiana jumped over them. And so, you know, it's interesting when I look at the Knicks. You can make the argument, hey, they're going to move, Randall, they're going to get somebody in here. it's going to be great. But to get somebody in, they're going to have to get rid of a few Josh Hartz. You've got to be very delicate. This is a Tibbs team. These veteran guys,

they don't want to practice like that. They don't want to play 45 minutes. So the Knicks are fascinating. I thought Philadelphia would win this series. And by the middle of game two, I'm like, oh, yeah, New York's a better team. They're winning the boards. They're better late. They're better coats. It just felt like, you know, you watch series and you're like, oh, by the way, we may feel this by half time of Minnesota, Denver. You're like, oh, there's a real problem here. But what's interesting with the Knicks, I can also argue this,

Jimmy Butler was hurt. Both day mignonas were hurt. Sixers have a shit ton of cap space and three potential picks. Indiana's getting better. What if Orlando takes a big swing and gets a member of the Phoenix Suns, right? Like, do you buy,

because you're going to have to give up some of those nice, maybe a Villanova guy. They're such a hustle effort team. Is this, like, you can't take it for granted. The East this year stinks. Like, its depth is all-time bad. Do we both believe, hey, they're just going to add a Katie or Paul George, and they're going to take a leap?

Or is it a delicate ecosystem there in New York and a beat-up Eastern Conference and reality may smack him in the face next year? So a huge part of their identity right now is the hustle, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, like they, like their offense kind of reminds me of like the Alan Iverson 76ers teams where Jalen Brunson is kind of just totally taking that responsibility on by himself. But it's mixed with like, hey, as soon as Jaylen shoots, just everyone crashed the offensive

glass and go get the rebound. Like that's basically what it is. And it's like Isaiah Hartnstein, excellent offensive rebounder, Mitchell Robinson, excellent offensive rebounder. Josh Hart, excellent offensive rebounder, Dante DeVincenzo, excellent offensive rebounder. That's just kind of what they do. So the thing, though, is like, you have to be careful if you include somebody like OG and an obi in a trade like that because the physical profile, the Knicks is vitally important, in my opinion. And I think you can get away with giving up, you know, for instance,

like I think if I had to choose between giving up Hart and DeVincenzo in a deal or an OG and and nobie, I would be doing whatever I could to hold on to OG. Because if you get, if you get Kevin Durant at this phase of his career older, right? And he's not as like physically strong as a guy like OG and an OB, you alter the physical profile of the team to the point where you're not as imposing. Because OG is a big part of what you're capable of doing on both ends of the floor in terms of that physical identity. And so I think they have to be careful.

You're going to fundamentally change your identity as a basketball team by making a deal like that because you go from being the bully offensive rebound out hustle team to now we're a classic two-star build built on offensive firepower and in a little bit more of that kind of like overall offensive skill so you got to find a way to kind of tow that line between the two because you don't want to lose that toughness identity because that toughness identity is a huge part of how you're winning but i think if they could somehow pull in a legitimate scoring forward someone like a paul georgia Kevin Durant without giving up that O.G. and an OB&OB slot, I think you could be in good shape.

This is where it's an advantage that you have the picks that you have and that you have as many good players as you have, because if you have to give up a Mitchell Robinson, you have Isaiah Hartnstein. If you have to give up an Isaiah Hartnstein, you have Mitchell Robinson. If you have to give up a Dante DiVincenzo, you know who's a hell of a player? Deuce McBride. And he's a guy that can guard on the perimeter and do a lot of that stuff. So, like, they have enough depth to where they can give up from different spots.

But if I'm Phoenix and you're like, you want Kevin Duran, I'm like, I want O.G. and O.G. and Ninobe. And so it's going to be tough. It's going to be a hard negotiation. Yeah. But if they can somehow keep Jalen, OG, one of the centers, and then get one of those big forwards, that's a really good team. That's a team that you'd be probably picking out East. Well, and you live in Arizona, and we've talked about this, is that you can get more for Booker. But remember, Phoenix was not good pre-Christ Paul. So he's not a leader guy, and he can't carry a franchise. And then you disappointed this year with Durant and Beal around Booker.

Booker's your classic, you know, cat shoot. I don't think he's a great athlete. He's just a, he's a dependable 25, 26 a night. He can be really streaky and get into the 35 for long stretches. Like he's a crazy streak shooter. But I think you make the mistake if you, like in Orlando, if Orlando made a move, Boncaro is your one, to me it feels like. And Booker comes in as a really good two.

But I want another score. with the foreword, you know, another, some size, some length. So like if you're Phoenix, now Beal and Kevin Durant, well, if you get rid of Booker, I got to get some young players over here because those guys are going to miss some spots, although Durant played a ton this year. So my take is, you're Phoenix. You can bring it all back, but there are issues. You don't have a classic point guard.

You don't have much of a bench. So those are real issues. You can keep bringing stuff back, but it's like at some point you have holes, right? We see, like Milwaukee, you can bring a lot. You can bring it all back, and they may have to because they don't have a lot of assets, and this is an old roster that are all locked up. I don't think that many people want. I think, Dame, you could move in Janus, but they don't want to move those two. So my takeaway is, you watch a lot of Suns basketball.

Who would you move? Where would you move them? Because it feels like, to me, people are going to make, they're going to get more phone calls than any team in the league. Because there's a lot of New York Knicks and Orlando South out looking at Phoenix thinking, it ended poorly. you know, they want to get out of stuff. They don't want to say it publicly. Phoenix is saying, hey, we're bringing the band back together. But it's a flawed team.

Vogel likes Biggs. It's not built for him. What would you do? You have to say that to you. You can't be like, yeah, oh yeah, fire sale this summer. You come and get him. But like, as far as I'm concerned, so much of this comes down to how you view Booker. And a lot of Suns fans view him as like a bona fide franchise cornerstone.

And the thing they point to there is the 2021 season. But it's like, okay, hold on a second. Let's filter through that. The conference finalist out West was a team led by Paul George, okay, without Kauai Leonard. And Trey Young made the conference finals out east. Like, it was, they won, the Bucks won that series with Yana said in a hyper-extended knee over the last couple of games. So, like, really that was the weird COVID season where all the good teams got hurt. All the good teams got hurt.

The Lakers got hurt. The Nuggets got hurt. The Miami Heat got hurt. Like, everyone was hurt in that season. So, like, it was kind of this gap here. totally legitimate championship for the bucks, but the Sun's getting to the finals, I think got them to believe in Devin Booker

as this franchise cornerstone. I look at Devin Booker more as like the Kyrie Irving type of archetype. If I could put him next to a real franchise player and he can just focus on being a late game shot maker slash guy that can spell your star for stretches and run the offense, that's the kind of fit that I like.

And so when I look at the Sun's situation, Bradley Beale, I think is a really good player. but his trade value is low because he's older, injury prone, and on a long-term deal that pays him a shit ton of money, right? Kevin Rand, really good player, but old and just in a situation where he doesn't have as much value around the league. Devin Booker is a guy that you can trade and get a haul. And so what I was pitching is like,

have the self-awareness to embrace the fact that Devin Booker's not going to be your franchise cornerstone and then be like, okay, well, how do we turn this situation into something more fun? I would call Orlando and I'd be like, hey, you got Pallaboncaro, but you just lost a series to the Cavs because nobody can create a shot other than Pallowl and no one can make jumpers. So like you need somebody that can come in and just be like a skill guard next to Palo Boncaro. And so I would call them and I'd be like, I want Jalen Suggs, I want Jonathan Isaac and I want Wendell Carter Jr. That's a lot. That is a whole. Those are three really good young players. Hey, Suggs was viewed as a bust six months ago.

Exactly. And to Suggs' credit, he's turned himself into one of the best permanent defenders in the league and a good three-point shooter, right? Like, he's a very valuable archetype. So now if I'm the Sons, I'm looking at it. And by the way, you might be able to even coax Orlando and have thrown you a draft pick or two in that deal. Who knows, depending on how that conversation would go. But then I look at it and I'm like, okay, now I've got, I've got Jalen Suggs, an elite point of attack defender, something Phoenix did not have last year.

I've got Bradley Biel still a high-powered number two. I've got Kevin Durant, Jonathan Isaac, two really rangy long wings that can do a lot defensively. And I'm going from Yusuf Nurkidge, an old, a slow-footed big center to Wendell Carter Jr., who is a big, strong, athletic, young center who can shoot the three ball. And so it kind of creates like a more fun Phoenix Sun's team. And it's just an acknowledgement of the reality that you weren't going to be able to rebuild around Booker and then go into these series with him as the best player. Because, like, if you go into a series of Devin Booker is your best player, or into a playoff run,

you're going to run into a lot of teams that have better players than Devin Booker. You just are. And so that's, that problem's not going away. And if I'm Orlando, I'm looking at it like, Palo is a franchise cornerstone. But clearly this build where it's like we're big and strong and athletic, but nobody can shoot, no one can dribble, no one can pass. They can't shoot.

That's not working either. And so I look at that as like, we'll figure out the rest later. Give me Devin Booker at age 27. next to my young star, who just averaged 27 points per game in a seven-game series against an elite defense when no one else on his team could make anything, and he had to do everything. It was a really impressive series from Powell. He's got a lot of that physical imposition on the game that is super valuable.

Yeah, I know that it's a really interesting trade because I think, I mean, I think what Orlando could provide is what Phoenix needs. And I just, I thought it was going to be better, but the more I watched Phoenix, and I watched them a lot. I'm like, yep, too much duplication. Doesn't work. Need more size, need a better wing defender. They're just going to make moves. Yeah, I've said this all the time in the NFL. It's okay to make mistakes. Just don't double down on them. Don't convince yourself Daniel Jones of the Giants is a top 10 quarterback. That's the mistake. Not saying, hey, we missed it a draft pick. Everybody misses on draft picks. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clever Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space. For honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, Thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to Stuff to Bole Your Mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to talk about Darbin Ham for a second.

I said this the other day. Listen, is for years and years, you hear Warrior fans, banging on Steve Kerr. Where's Comingo? Where's Wiseman? Well, they want a sophisticated offense that's lightning speed and to bring guys out of the G-League high school, insert them when you're trying to, by the way,

refine them as players. They're just raw. You're just sandpapaping these players. Oh, yeah, and learn this offense. Playing with Steph Curry and Draymond Green is, that's calculus. That's not, you're not talking about Orlando's offense, right? They're all growing together.

So people banged on Kerr for years, but you're not getting the young guys in, and it's like Steve knows what he's doing. He sees the film. He's at practice every day. Give him credit. And I don't think Darwin Ham, as a rookie head coach, is at that level. But where I'll defend him is that, like, when you faced Denver,

Denver's won 12 or 13 times. If you win 12 out of 13 games in a baseball series, you know, Yankees have owned the twins forever. There's probably a reason. Your back end's bad. You don't have the power. There's something. You're missing a component.

You know, the Yankees have better starting pitching, whatever it is. And I look at Denver and the Lakers, and the four best players for the Nuggets never really have a terrible game. Like, Murray can play like crap in the first half, but it'll have a great fourth. Porter will eventually hit big shots. Even KCP rarely is bad for four quarters. But Rui can disappear. Delo has disappeared. Anthony Davis, because he worked so darn hard on the defense event, sometimes.

sometimes, you know, sort of regresses offensively late. And so I look at it and I think, well, God, I watch, Lakers led for 70% of it, but they just have guys in their rotation that disappear. And then Anthony and LeBron have to literally like play harder minutes, more minutes. So I look at it and I think to myself, you got to get out of substitution patterns. We're not at practice. Who does he trust? Who doesn't he? I'd bring Darvindham back. But, I mean, Laker fans are 100% that he's a bum. that he can't coach. And I'm like, am I missing something? Is he that bad of a coach?

So he shouldn't have been put in this particular situation, which is where everything really comes back to the front office. Darwin Ham should have been given a situation where he could kind of learn how to coach on the fly without as much pressure as there was in Los Angeles. To be clear, and I heard your opening rant the day after Darvindham got fired, and I totally agree with everything you said. So many teams rushed to blame the coach.

it's actually one of my biggest pet peeves in the NBA. Every fan base hates their coach. It's the craziest thing. Everyone. The Warriors. I've even seen Heat fans complain about Spolster's rotation. Like it is a super common thing around the league. So I want to be clear.

The Lakers lost to Denver because their players weren't as good as Denver's players. Right. That goes, that is, that is absolutely what happened in that series. I actually thought it was super fascinating that coming into that season, you and I talked about how like, hey, Rui plays the same position as LeBron, DeLo plays the same position as Austin. Those are redundancies. They need to trade those guys.

And who were the two guys that let them down in that series? Rui and Delo. Those are the two guys. So the front office is why they lost to Denver. That said, it became abundantly clear this season that Darwin was not ready. And there are two main things that I want to hit on, and I'll be quick. One, he grossly mismanaged the talent on the roster. Here's the basic stat that will send this point home.

in the 13-game stretch after the in-season tournament when they went 3-10, which is literally the reason they had to play Denver in the first round and fight through the playing tournament. DeAngela Russell, who as flawed as he is, is certainly their third or fourth best player. DeAngelo Russell was playing as many minutes as Cam Reddish and taking as many shots as Tori and Prince.

That was what was happening in that 13-game stretch post-in-season tournament. So we got to a doghouse. Yeah, when you are playing, and here's the thing, I understand when there's like a sixth or seventh man in your rotation that's struggling and you need to jockey the rotation around. Darwin said, he leaked to the press. Like, when a guy, what's the word of phrase? He used, shit's the bad 10 games in a row. You got to do something.

Here's the problem, though. What you don't do is go, hmm, Derek White, that was a rough 10 game stretch. You know what? Let's take him out of the lineup. Let's put Peyton Pritchard in there. Like, that's not what you do. Like, you play your best players. Your best players get more leeway.

You don't pull DeAngelo Russell and heavily limit his usage and minute opportunities on the floor for Cam Reddish, who literally is what on his fourth team in five years? It just, it was an asinine misallocation of resources, and it directly led to the situation they were in in the standings. Everybody knew their five best players were LeBron, A.D., Austin, Dilo, Rui. As soon as he started playing all five of them, big minutes and starting, they took off and won most of their games. That was a gross, that was a negligent management of talent, right? The second piece of it, and the important part to understand here is the context of why he got hired. Right around the time Darwin got hired, who was the big coach that everybody wanted after the situation? What happened in Boston?

It was Ime Udoka. Everyone's like, man, email Udoca took the Celtics and turned them from like kind of a soft group into like a really tough group in that 2021 season, remember? And so there was all of this like, or 2022 season, I should say. basically what people were thinking was let's get a former player who can look eye to eye with these guys and hold them accountable.

And the main issue that Darwin Ham had, and I would say this was a bigger issue than anything having to do with the rotation, he was too much of a benevolent motivator. He never held those guys accountable on a day-to-day basis. They'd have games, which would have unacceptable efforts, and then he'd go and be like, you know,

marathon, not a sprint, you know, we're just in this for the long haul. This is all going to be fine. And when you watched, I was, it was jarring in that Denver series to watch the juxtaposition of Michael Malone, actively coaching on the sideline. Guy makes a mistake, it's a timeout, he's getting screamed at in the huddle. He's going, after game four, he went and ripped him all a new one in the postgame presser for not protecting the paint two games in a row. And then Darwin Ham is just sitting, chilling on the sideline. He's a very passive coach, and he never held players accountable.

And so when you look at those two teams, I've got a Denver team that is really sharp in their execution. They never let go with the rope for more than a possession or two before they regain composure. And there was a Lakers team that would frequently lose control of the situation for like three, four minutes at a time. There were a lot of big defensive mistakes down the stretch in those losses, the buzzer-beater ones in game two and in game five. And so the reality is, is like, Darwin's not responsible for what happened. However, everyone involved in that situation knew like, hey, Darwin's not a very good NBA coach right now. So we have a lot of urgency. We have a lot of pressure.

LeBron's going into year 22. He's going to be 40 years old. Let's not head into this season at a coaching disadvantage. Let's get someone in here that's more established, someone that can actually have a higher floor, a baseline level of competence, so that we actually make sure that the players are the one determining the outcome here at the end of the day.

All right. Caitlin Clark topic. So, and this is just off the top of my head. But if you look at players who have missed, and I don't watch enough WNBA to have a strong opinion, but if you look at basketball in general on players that miss college to pro, it's a lot of bigs, a lot of injury issues. Sometimes bigs come into the league,

and they just, they're a little old school, it's new school, they get pushed around, teammates, coaches lose confidence. Generally, point guards, I mean, I mean, listen, if you're quick, if you distribute, you can shoot a little bit, it's hard to bust. You can find a space for a guy maybe in rotation. So, and I always feel that way with shooters. If you're quick and you can get a good shot and you can shoot, the league's just

need, it's not a lot of guys that can really shoot that have been busts. They'll find a way, even if you're an awful defensive player. They'll bring you off the bench. They'll put you in patterns so you're not having to guard the best defensive players. So like Caitlin Clark, there's a sense is, oh, she's going to be a can't miss. Well, even in the NFL, there is no can't miss. There are no camp misses. My take on her, though, is she is really quick.

She has tremendous court awareness. So players are going to like playing with her. Like at Iowa, you know, she makes great passes. People can't finish. Like people now can finish in the WNBA. So, and also she just, she gets a shot and she's a devastating shooter. So I do see her transforming the league. I don't think we've seen a shooter like that in the league.

And I also think, again, her court awareness, playing with better finishers. People are going to want to play with her. Like, even if she struggles, she'll get other people involved and she'll draw so much attention. What is your guess on what kind of player she is? Is she a first team all WNBA? Because I just don't have, you know, the length is much different in the WNBA. 666, 6, 6, 7 is everybody's got those level players. So you don't get the freebies down low.

You know, in college, you can get some real cheap baskets, men's and women's. I think she's going to be a star, but I have no, nothing to judge it on. I mean, Cheryl Miller was bigger, taller. I mean, there's certain times you look at athletes and you just go, Candace Parker, that's going to work. But a shooting guard from Iowa, I don't know. What do we make of it? So I actually view the college game as more challenging to score than people think.

And there's a bunch of reasons for that. One, like, look at that Iowa team. There are a lot of girls on that team that could shoot, right? So, like, the spacing isn't as good. One of the things that's interesting to me about college hoops is the athletic is always much further along than the offensive skill development. So, like, it's actually, like, a lot of, and then the coaching is really good, and the level of intensity on a game-to-game basis is really, really high.

So it's actually really difficult to score at the college level. And to your, I actually 100% agree with you on your take on, like, the safety of a player, like the, like an offensively skilled player being kind of bust-proof in the sense that, like, the vast majority of players that demonstrated they can, could score at the college level, get into the NBA, and they're able to score. And it's because there's usually- Now, Jimmer Ferdat was a very small player by NBA standard. She's not, I mean, so there are people that just can't defend it all.

She's not small. She's not, you know, Caitlin's got some size to her as well. Like, you're not going to push her around either. She's a feisty player. Yeah, absolutely. And, like, I thought that was one of the first things that, first of all, such a statement to me about just the type of phenomenon that Caitlin Clark is, that like I was covering a game that day.

I think it was the, it might have been the Nuggets Wolves game. I can't remember. I was watching a game for my job that day. And I literally got my phone up and downloaded the WMBA app and I watched it. I was like, I texted my wife. My wife was at the airport flying home from Chicago. And I texted her and I was like, hey,

like Caitlin Clark's playing on the WMBA app right now. She stopped everything she was doing and she downloaded the app and she watched the game, which just goes to show you the type of phenomenon that she is. but like as I was watching, she can get separation from these girls. In addition to that, like everyone always focuses on like, oh,

the athleticism goes up a level. All this gets more difficult, but basketball doesn't work like that. You're not just playing one-on-one all game long. Like you're running sets, you're doing things that are designed to generate openings, and she has the skill to make shots in those openings. And so there was,

it was such a, I don't know what it is about Caitlin, and maybe it is her fame, but there seems to be this segment that's almost like rooting for her to fail. It's kind of bizarre to me. I don't understand it. But the truth of the matter is,

is like she might have certain matchups. Like she might run into specific defenders at the WMBA that give her some issues. She's going to have off shooting nights. She's going to have, because she's new at this, she's going to have stretches where it doesn't look as pretty. But to me,

it's a pretty safe bet that she's going to score a lot of baskets in the WMBA for a long time. Yeah, and I do think she has a unique ability I'm interested in WNBA basketball now. And I'd be the first to tell you, I don't watch everything. I don't watch NASCAR. I do watch playoff hockey,

but I don't watch a lot of regular season hockey. I don't watch WNBA much. If it's on, I'd watch 10 minutes of it. But it's like, oh, yeah, I'll watch. Like, I would never, you know, I don't do a ton of country music, but there have been acts over time. I'd be like, oh, I'd go to watch that.

And I think she has that, oh, I'd watch that. you bring the casual in. KD. Oh, you know, you're a casual. Well, most people are casuals. I mean, the truth is the reason the NFL, I've said for years, the NFL is lasagna or Italian food. It's everybody's second favorite, if not first. NBA's more sushi. You love it or you don't like it at all. I went to college with guys from Paloose country in Washington State, raw fish to them. It's like, not a chance in the world. So like every sport needs casuals and the NFL just has a ton of casuals. My wife would sit down and watch an NFL game. You're not going to watch baseball.

So I think Caitlin Clark has the ability to pull me in. I feel it, and I think it's great. All right. Jason Timp, hoops tonight. As always great stuff. Yeah, this was fun, man. Looking forward to it. This second round is going to be incredible.

These two Western Conference series are going to be bar and burners. I'm looking forward to breaking it down with you. Thanks so much for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, take a moment, rate and review. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me.

84 was big to me. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year.

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