The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - Caitlin Clark’s Star Power, Ohtani Big For Dodgers Or Baseball? Most Powerful NFL Brands, The Future Of Sports On Cable TV

Episode Date: March 7, 2024

Colin is joined by Mike Mulvihill, the President of Insights and Analytics at FOX. They look at the massive jump in women’s college basketball ratings and whether that’s purely a short-term bump due to the star power of Caitlin Clark, or a long-term trend (3:30). They also dive into the popularity of women’s college hoops vs men’s (6:45).  Colin asks Mike whether Shohei Ohtani’s superstar status will be huge for just the Dodgers or the MLB as a whole (11:00) and what type of ratings explosion we can expect to see in college football next season after conference realignment (16:45) They break down why the Dallas Cowboys and Kansas City Chiefs have the most powerful brands and what teams are close to that status (24:00). They dive into the future of cable TV and why sports has proven resilient despite a decline in overall cable viewership (30:30) and why networks may back away from carrying certain sports. (36:00) They look at the impact of the globalization of sports and why it’s not good for domestic TV ratings (39:00) and what the future of the College Football Playoff could look like with the networks calling the shots (48:30) (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates! #Volume #Herd See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Fascinating listen. Caitlin Clark, NFL, college football, the future of streaming in sports. of it with Michael Mulvill. Before we start, grab your smartphone and download the Game Time app. It takes 90 seconds. You'll never have to worry about a ticket to a big game again. Game time is fast, in fact, the fastest and easiest way to buy tickets for sports, music, comedy, theater events near you. It's awesome. Last minute seats, game time, download the Game Time app. They have zone deals. You You pick the section and game time picks the seats for big time savings. Take the guesswork out of buying tickets with game time.

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Well, I always try to stay away from too many conversations with the suits on the fifth floor. You just get in trouble when you're on the air and you get in the company of powerful men. And Michael Mulvahill, the president of insights and analytics at Fox across the board, is one of those powerful guys. But he's so disarming, first of all. Second of all, he's got, I mean, it's a perfect title, insights and analytics. And there's so many things. I don't really talk a ton about my industry if I do Michael's the guy at Fox that I talk to.

So there's a kind of a myriad of topics here. Let's start with something we've never seen before, Caitlin Clark. Now, years ago, when Tiger Woods came into golf, there was this sense that, oh, golf ratings are going to explode. And my takeaway was, no, when Tiger Leaves, I mean, three million people take up golf a year and three million people quit. It's hard. But there are these Caitlin Clark, Michael Jordan figures in our life that are just unique and spectacular. Women's ratings have been growing.

Do you see Caitlin Clark as the creator of a new reality? or to some degree, she's just a spectacular unicorn with her style, tenacity, and excellence for multiple years. That's a great place to start. And first of all, thanks for having me. I really enjoy doing this with you from time to time. I also try to avoid having conversations with powerful people up here on the fifth. You and I have that in common. Look, certainly, this is a unique moment in the evolution of interest in women's sports.

I don't think we've ever seen such a groundswell in interest across certainly basketball, collegiate volleyball, international soccer. I think what we're seeing is the payoff of literally over 50 years of Title IX and the way that that's changed, the way that girls have access to sports, and the way that both men and women think about women's athletics. And it's brought us to this moment where college basketball readings on the women's side are up 60% across all networks. and Caitlin Clark's game on Sunday against Ohio State did almost three and a half million viewers. And I think your question is the right one. You know, what does this mean going forward? And is Caitlin a unicorn?

And I don't think she is. You know, I think that what she is is she's at the forefront of an evolution in the skill level that we see in women's basketball. And the players that are coming up behind her, whether that's Paige Beckers, who's coming back for another year at Connecticut or Juju Watkins, who has. several years to go at Southern Cal, and obviously they'll be part of the Big Ten next year. I think she's just on the leading edge of a new generation of players that are elevating the game. I think Tiger Woods is an interesting precedent as well. I think you could even go back as far as the 1980s NBA, where Magic and then Jordan entered the league. And they were at a skill level that we hadn't seen before, but they just represented an evolution of

the game that then continued even after they had moved on. So I think once Caitlin moves on to the WNBA, I'm not sure that we'll see viewership at the collegiate level that's exactly what we're seeing this year, but I don't think it's a reset back to where we were five years ago either. I think a permanent step forward has happened and we're still going to see some pretty strong interest in the future. Yeah, and I also think men's and women's college basketball ratings will be closer. One, to your point, the evolution and progress and development of women's basketball. We've got 40, 50 years of young ladies being encouraged to be athletes and we're seeing the payoff. But I also think there's a reality about the NBA and college basketball is unlike college football in the NFL, they don't work together.

The top four picks in this past draft in the NBA came from four different leagues. It's too much. It's a turnstile. When you add the transfer portal to the one and done, if I can't name three Duke starters, but I can name two Iowa women's starters, that tells you what's happening. I would argue the G League, I think the NBA Adam Silver has always had a little bit of a chip about college basketball. Now players are getting paid in college basketball, so maybe it's a different vibe. But I think the G League was created to give talented basketball players who perhaps didn't want to go to college, real money, and real opportunities without having to pass through college basketball.

But I do wonder, Michael, if that's hurt the college game and the pro game. I've often said, I know Zion for one reason, Duke. He goes to the G League, he's Jalen Green. What do I know? I know Jalen Green's talented. I didn't watch him in college. I don't think men's college basketball, barring a transformational figure, and I think Zion was, I think men's basketball and women's basketball are going to be semi-close here on out.

Am I wrong on that? I don't think you are. And in fact, I think when we look ahead to March Madness this year, I think the difference in viewership, which is what I spend all my time thinking about, the difference in viewership between the men's national championship game and the women's national championship game, I think it's going to be closer than ever. You know, last year that margin was, I think, about four million viewers. This year, the women's national title game will be on broadcast. The men's national title game will be on cable. That makes a big difference. If Caitlin gets to the championship game and plays a

big brand name school, I don't know that that necessarily means that the women's game is going to outrate the men's, but I do think that margin is going to be tighter than ever. And I think you're right. I mean, I think a lot of what we see on the women's side, we're seeing elements that we used to associate with men's college basketball decades ago. What I mean by that is that you've got stars who play four years. Caitlin Clark could have chosen to come back and play a fifth year. The nucleus of top teams stays together longer. You can build rivalries. If Caitlin Clark plays Angel Reese in this year's tournament again. There's a carryover effect

from past year's tournament. And that's become really, really rare on the men's side. And I do think that's a little and look, we're obviously very invested in men's college basketball too. So we only want it to do well. But I do think that there are some well-established handicaps on the men's side that we don't

necessarily see on the women's side and it helps contribute to that closing of the gap. Yeah, I remember about 15 years ago, I used to get Street and Smith for men's college basketball. And I could guess the starting five All-American team. And I remember a few years ago, I got some magazine, it may have been seven, eight years ago. And the first team all-American team had two high schoolers. I'm like, all right, Crest out. This is way over. I'm not going to go online. I mean, high schoolers are first team All-Americans. It's like I give up. I want to pivot here to

baseball and Shohei Otani. So a friend of mine went to a Padre Spring training game last week. Now, That's a pretty star-filled roster. He said he drove into the parking lot. Four minutes later, he's in his seat. He went to a Dodger game the next day. He said, Colin, it took me 45 minutes from the time I pulled in the parking lot to get to my seat. It would have been a 20 to 25-minute wait in beer lines. So I have suggested that Shohei Otani, I mean, he's almost Ichero with power.

You know, Ichero was more of a singles, doubles guy. had some home run stick. It was a remarkable player, a fascinating player, but now you're talking the Dodgers, the L.A. market. This guy is, you know, 6'5, Hollywood looks, and he's a power hitter. You know, there's a Paul Bunyan quality. We love our Mark McGuire's and our Aaron Judge, Reggie Jackson generationally. We do, you know, Johnny Bench. We love those guys. I have suggested they're going to average 50,000 people a year. Now, they already lead Major League Baseball and Attendance. It's a beautiful stadium. Hard to get in and out of, but nonetheless, it's It's a big brand in L.A.

What do you think he does for baseball? Dodgers are already popular, but it does matter, Michael, as you know, outside of the NFL, and perhaps even in the NFL, market size can matter. Stars matter. How do you view Otani? Does he elevate the sport or just the Dodgers? How do you view it? So there are a couple ways of coming at that.

I think it's a really fascinating question. I think one of the realities of baseball, and we can contrast this maybe to the NBA, is that in the NBA, stars create brands, and in baseball, brands create stars, right? LeBron James can come into the NBA and make the Cleveland Cavaliers a brand, and they were one of the top brands in the league for a long time. For whatever combination of reasons, it tends not to work that way in baseball. And Shohay Otani was never really. able to elevate the brand of the angels, even playing alongside Mike Trout, who's got an argument

as many the greatest everyday fighter ever, right? So now, moving to the Dodgers, you're moving into that environment where the brand helps make the stars, right? Like in baseball, the brands that matter, obviously the Yankees, clearly the Dodgers, the Cubs when they're good, the Cardinals when they're good, there aren't that many. Maybe Atlanta's in that category. By moving to a brand that matters. The brand will elevate him a little bit, which is obviously great for Shohei Otani. I think it's great for the Dodgers. I think their home games this year will take on a little bit of the feel of what Laker games feel like when the Lakers are good, where it's got that celebrity wattage and just the feel that comes with a big event in L.A.

And that's going to be amazing. All that said, the reality is that the baseball postseason, more than any other sport has a high degree of randomness. And the Dodgers might have one of the best everyday lineups that we've seen in years. They could go out and win 115 games. And still, when we get to October, we're going to be holding our breath to see if they can win three out of five and get to the next round, then four out of seven and get to the World Series. You just don't have that confidence that even when you have a super team that they're necessarily going to advance. And that's just sort of a byproduct of the construction of the baseball postseason.

So I think it's a big deal. I think it's great for this city. But as a part of the company that's the rights holder to the World Series and has been for a long time, I think we have to sort of moderate our expectations for what Otani can mean because it's just the nature of baseball that you still have a reasonable chance that no matter how good the big brands are, there's still a path where Arizona and Texas and smaller more teams that win 87 games to get to the World Series. Yeah, and I think the quirkiness and the randomness of baseball is what really separates it. It's not as predictable. I mean, it's funny.

The Yankees had finally a really down year, and people are driving to the precipice of the cliff. The Yankees are done. I'm like, folks, they've had one bad year in, like, 12. Like, slow down. They'll be fine. So I want to talk college football. In my space, as you know, I was taught a rule very quickly in sports radio. And I consider my FS1 show.

It's just sort of a radio TV combo, right? It's a simulcast. Play the hits. And so I do about 65% of NFL. It's the hit. And during the Alabama and Georgia dominance, and I love college football, I think you know that, I scaled back for about eight to 10 years. I felt the sport was very regional.

And I had said continually, you have to have USC, Texas, Michigan. They have to win too. This past year, although USC wasn't good, it felt much broader. And so I increased significantly my college football talk. My guess is I will double it this year based on taking the four biggest brands of the West into the Midwest, Texas, Oklahoma, into the best conference or South. depending on the year in the teams, the SEC. As a company, it has been suggested to me, because the ratings were up this year in college football, that it could take a precipitous jump this year and really stabilize and confirm it is the second most watch sport in America.

So, A, is it now clearly? And B, do you suspect that's where we're going with a convergence of big brands and new conferences? Yeah, not only was viewership up last. year, you can go a step further. Viewership for college football last year was the highest it's ever been. So this is the most watch season of college football ever. Wow. I didn't know that.

You think that there's been sort of a nationalization of interest that will be enhanced by those West Coast teams coming to the Big Ten. I think just from a television perspective, a lot of what's changed is that we don't do regionalized college football windows anymore and we haven't for some time. So every game is going to a national audience and more and more games are coming to broadcast TV. I think Fox has been self-serving for me to say this, but I think we've been an important player in that because we've moved our best games to noon, which means you now have great games at noon, great games at 3.30, and great games in prime time. And so it creates a better day of college football and you're seeing more time spent with the sport. I actually think right now, and unlike you, I went through a purestableness.

where maybe I was a little bit bearish on college football, really preferred NFL Sundays. I don't think there are any better days in sports now than college football Saturdays because you have so many games, so much available to watch, so much available to bet on if you're a person who's inclined to take a little action on some of these games. And I think every college football Saturday is now really on par or even better than the Thursday and Friday of the first weekend of March Madness, which you just think of as a a feast of all-day sports viewing and sports betting. So I think college football is in an incredibly healthy place.

The expansion in the Big Ten, you know, what it means for us, and this is what you were alluded to earlier, now you've got Ohio State Oregon as a game that's on the schedule next year. USC Michigan is a game that's on the schedule next year. You're going to have these interregional rivalries and huge. games that weren't previously possible. I would imagine most of the people listening aren't aware of this, but the way that college football games get assigned across the networks is that we literally go through a draft, right? So in the 10 draft, Fox has the number one pick. We take Ohio State Michigan. The networks take turns drafting, and that's how the games are assigned,

which is a little bit different than the NFL. You still do that. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's one of the most interesting. When are you doing that? What day? What week? It's a couple weeks out because now that CBS is a partner with us in the Big Ten. They obviously get very busy around March Madness, so it's going to probably slow the process down a little bit. So we're a few weeks away from starting that college football draft. But there are games on the draft board this year that in the old Big Ten, you would have thought this is the second or third best game in the pool.

And this year, those games may not go till six, seven, eighth, ninth. I mean, the depth of quality games, the number of games that I would feel comfortable putting in a Fox noon window, which is our showcase window, there are at least 40, if not 50 games like that. Wow. I would imagine that in the Disney offices, when the ESPN folks look at the SEC schedule, now that they've got Oklahoma and Texas coming on board, they probably feel the same way.

I mean, the depth of great games in those two conferences is just extraordinary. I think, and look, I understand people have their, there's a lot of complexity around NIL and now the possible unionization of college athletes. And there were a lot of, like, important issues playing out in the collegiate space. But I think just in terms of a television product, college football's never been stronger, and I think it's going to be even stronger this fall. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the game. and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way,

This platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table. right now.

Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Obviously, the Dallas Cowboys, when they're viable, rate very well with the NFL. And there are markets right now that are under-attach.

achieving. Chicago, New York, you just wish the teams were better. I've always argued it's hard to understand how big the influence of the 49ers is unless you live out west. If the Niners are playing in your stadium, they've got 40% of the seats, other than maybe Denver. They're the Yankees of the West Coast, that they literally fill your stadium. So I've always thought the Niners were undervalued as an NFL market. San Francisco is obviously a big city. And I do wonder about Pittsburgh that was so dominant for years, but it's a small city relative to other big markets.

So if I said to you six best, if Fox could pick, and now these days you guys share AFC, NFC, NFC, if I said to you, all things considered, market, brand, quarterback, can you unveil like the top six or seven picks in this league? Yeah, that's an interesting way of framing it, right? Because there's a very clear top two, and then there's a gap, and it's sort of an open question as to what team might step up and become the third most powerful brand, because for years, at least on the NFC side, it was Dallas and Green Bay. Well, on the NFC side, it's still Dallas. It's probably always going to be Dallas. It could be Green Bay again, but I think right now there's a little bit of a blank space that some team could step into and become that third

marquee brand. Certainly, it's been Dallas for a long time. Now Kansas City's right alongside them. I think when we talk about our schedule and when we talk to the league about what we would like to have for next season, Dallas and Kansas City very clearly have separated themselves from the rest of the league. And then there are a number of teams that have the potential to become that third marquee team. Philadelphia definitely is won. Philadelphia was a holding penalty away from sending the Super Bowl to overtime two seasons ago. They obviously struggled second half of this season, but that's a big brand.

They've got exciting star players. The market of Philadelphia is not only one of the biggest cities in the country, but it rates extremely well. Philadelphia contributes more viewers to our national viewership than any other city. So if Philly can bounce back from that tough second half that they had last year, they're definitely eligible to become that third big grant. I think you're right about San Francisco. San Francisco's another team who's very close to winning a championship, deep and talented on both sides of the ball, fun to watch.

They play that kind of positionless offense that I think is very watchable and just fun. So San Francisco is another one. Still a lot of built-in following for the Packers. They looked a lot better in December than they did. September, which is what they tend to be. So they have the potential to step up. I think Buffalo is a giant. I think what's interesting with Buffalo is that not only is it the quality of the team and the quality of Josh Allen,

but there's just a culture around that team and the idea of the Bill's Mafia and Buffalo being a super passionate football city that has been at the doorstep of a championship a couple times and just never quite got there. they've got a little bit of that Chicago Cubs of the NFL feeling, right? Where if they get to the big game, that becomes an enormous national story. And you could probably put Detroit in that category. I was thinking, my, they travel well. Boy, the lions travel like crazy this year. Yeah, well, I think Detroit.

Look, I grew up in Pittsburgh, right? So I'm very familiar with that team and that city. Detroit and Pittsburgh are sort of in similar circumstances. where they're both industrial Midwestern cities where economic realities forced a lot of people to move away, right? So you've got a lot of former Pittsburghers and a lot of former Michiganders around the country. And so when the Steelers go on the road, there's always a lot of Steelers fans there because people have relocated. A lot of people from Detroit have relocated. I think those teams from the industrial Midwest, we think of them as traveling well because a lot

of people used to live there and now they've gone to the Sunbelt and they go to the Sunbelt and they go to the road games. You know, TV rights as a whole, I can remember reading articles, sports illustrated cover articles, you know, when's it going to end? You can't pay this much for TV rights. Well, now you've got Amazon, Apple on the doorstep of, you know, either buying networks or buying rights. So the numbers, you know, you need content.

Obviously, the cliche content's king. It just is. Fill the bandwidth. it. That's what they do. You know, it's interesting. I work in cable. Explain this to me. So cable obviously has been eroding for several years for about a decade. Talked about for about six, seven years, but, you know, about 10 years ago, people started, people within the industry didn't talk about it publicly. They tried to keep it secret, but it started happening. But yet, the ability by Fox to team with YouTube create streaming eventually here.

is stemming some of the losses. My show, for instance, we wrote 25 or something percent this year, and cable is eroding. And I'm going to throw something at you. It's theoretical. And Michael just literally take a pinata to it if it's crazy. But I've made this argument

that if TikTok, because of government regulations, was regulated to a level that only two things could be on it. Culinary stuff and pet stuff. And it lost 70% of its audience. But culinary and pet videos were all that was allowed, or all that flourished,

that it would be an incredibly dynamic platform for those two, right, industries. Well, television now, cable TV is sports and politics. linear TV, sports and politics. So people say cable's dying and I'm like, no. Yes, it is. But it's overwhelming. We don't share it with anybody.

We share it with Trump and Biden for five months. Otherwise, television's now dominated by the industry I grew up in. So as the platform may be dissolving or shrinking or regressing, it's now wholly owned by two factors of which it should be noted. Fox between politics and sports is, you know, well suited to. flourish. So when you look at the cable erosion, they've been talking about newspaper erosion forever. New York Times is more powerful than ever, in my opinion. I mean, they bought the athletic, which went for four or five hundred million dollars. I don't know how to position it or if you can

talk about it too much, but what do you make of the cable erosion? But some of those losses appear to be beings are stemmed by sports gambling, the increased dominance of sports, by YouTube and relationships. Talk me through how you view that. Yeah. That's, That's an incredibly rich topic, right? And that is what everybody in our business spends a lot of our time thinking about is how is that cable business changing? What does it mean to our revenue streams? What's going to mean to sports rights going forward?

I think if you want to understand our business, a good place to start is to simply understand that for the entire time that you and I have been doing what we do, sports content has in some way been subsidized by non-sports fans who pay for cable TV. And so for the last 40 years, while media has changed incalculably, what we've always seen in sports is a rising number of pay TV subscribers, more people paying for content. And so the pool of money that's available to us in sports has just grown and grown and grown. Nobody our age or younger has ever really known what it means to be in a contracting sports economy. Well, now, because of that, what you're describing, where people are getting

out of the cable bundle, entertainment viewers are figuring out that they can get the content they want from streaming platforms. And so fewer and fewer non-sports fans are paying for sports content, that era of subsidization is either coming to an end or it's already over. And that pool that we have to pay for sports rights is going to contract. And it forces all of us to be a little bit more disciplined in our dealmaking and in the way that we consider rights opportunities. But what's also interesting there is that as that number of people that are subscribing to cable TV shrinks, and it goes from nearly 100 million to now closer to 70 million.

I believe that most of the people that are getting out of the sports, that are getting out of the pay TV bundle, they're not really big sports fans. They're people who are subscribing to cable for entertainment content. Now they're getting their entertainment content from Netflix and from Prime Video, Disney Plus. And what that means is that your number of cable subscribers is going down, the revenue associated with those subscribers is going down.

And yet because those people that are leaving the bundle aren't sports fans, the people that are left behind are spending more of their time on sports and on 24-hour news. And so here we are for this year to date, FS1 viewership is up 7%, right? May not sound like a lot. But when you're in an environment of declining subscribers, to have any growth is pretty noteworthy. Your show is growing. Nick Wright's show is growing. We see shows on ESPN that are still growing. If you talk about live events, NFL, college football, we talked about women's basketball earlier, NASCAR has been up the last couple weeks. There's a lot out there that's growing.

And so sort of the paradox of it is that the viewership for sports in many, many cases is going up. And yet because that subscriber base is eroding, the revenue associated with sports TV is going down. And so there's a little bit of a decoupling between popularity and revenue generation. And I think it's very confusing to people because you're constantly reading about record ratings for the Super Bowl, record ratings for college football. And yet we and companies like ours don't necessarily have the same, the revenue streams that we draw on to make these deals aren't as powerful as they were even just a couple years ago. So that's a transformational change. I think it's a major adjustment for people who do what I do and who have only ever known an expanding sports economy.

And it's going to affect all of us, right? It affects what's available to spend on rights. it affects what's available to spend on talent. It affects people like me, right? We all are going to have to sort of re-demonstrate and re-establish our value because we can't just rely on the rising tide of growing cable revenue. So that's kind of a long explanation, but that's probably as best as I can put it. So if I'm Lachlan Murdoch, what you're telling me is,

I've just got to make really smart choices, and in some instances, I have to let some stuff go. So I'm going to do NFL, college football. We've always had a history of NASCAR, World Cup, love to have the World Series. But it probably means we're not going to bid on the NBA. I mean, right now, bang for the buck, our women's college basketball is the best value in the world. But what we paid for it. Doesn't that just come down to like any business? simplify it, but I'm a simple guy, that you just have to make more prudent choices.

You've got to let stuff go. I mean, like baseball is a great example. Like, if we're losing $120 million, we just can't do that anymore. We'll just take fewer games. Doesn't it come down to just choices? We're not getting out of the sports business, but we may just get out of some of the sports businesses. Yeah, it's just a matter of discipline and priorities, right?

And I think it's important to recognize that our priorities are not going to be the same is another company's priority. So that's certainly not to single out the NBA or any property, but there are going to be things out there that one company will decide isn't essential for them. And another company is going to believe it absolutely is essential for their planning and for their strategy. You know, we certainly, we were born to do football, right?

Fox Sports was created when we got the rights to the NFL, starting with the 1994 season. And I don't think we've ever really moved off the idea that our identity is wrapped up in the game of football. And that's very much where we want to be. Just recently, we did an analysis where we found that a majority of sports viewing across the entire calendar year is now viewing of football. So across the 12 months of the year, I think 52% of all sports viewing is NFL, college football. And you can throw a little bit of spring football in there, too. I think when we talk about the power of sports on television, what we're often really talking about is the power of football, right?

Football has become sort of a stand-in for the strength of the sports business in general. So from our perspective, we really identify with football, that's what we build our brand on. We're very much aligned with the fortunes of the game. What's good for football is kind of good for Fox. And that's probably where our investments are going to continue to be predominantly. And again, that doesn't mean that there aren't other sports that aren't incredibly valuable, but I think another company might value them differently than we would. You know, baseball hockey and the NBA are increasingly international, global sports,

whereas the NFL is wholly domestic, although they are pushing to be in Europe. but it's on their terms. I've said this about the NBA. I love international players because they play against older men when they're younger. They come in battle-tested mature. Like when you and I travel to Europe, you know, we tend to be more focused. We have an itinerary. We stay on it.

We just don't ad-lib like we do here in the States, right? So the players come over. They bring a family member or two. They sleep. They play basketball. They train. They're very focused. They're very mature.

I think European kids, you know, they smoke. a little earlier than ours. They drink with their parents when they're 15. It's a different lifestyle, a different culture. My mom told me a lot about that as a British mother. I wonder about the NBA. I think international sports make the sports better, but not necessarily from a rating standpoint as viable to the networks. Like, I think the NBA, the ability for Wembe at 7-4 to come down, he's got handles. He can break a guy off the dribble and hit a three. Chet Hongren. It's insane.

I mean, these guys were all back to the basket guys 10 years ago, 12 years ago. Is it possible that the globalization of sports, though it could be good for revenue and shoe sales, and the aesthetic, the quality, is not necessarily great for domestic ratings? It's an open question, right? And I wouldn't dig in too hard or take too firm of a position on it,

but I think you are on to something that's pretty interesting because just personally as a fan and a viewer, I think Wembe is incredibly compelling and incredibly entertaining. I can't wait to see what he can do for the next 10 years, but to sort of go back to where we started, I think there's a lot of value in a kid from Des Moines, Iowa, who plays for the Iowa Hawkeyes for four years.

And we just know that brand and we know that conference. You sort of know what it represents. And when she, when Caitlin Clark goes to the professional level, she brings the benefit of those four years of playing for a really well-known American university with her. So I wonder about that, too. You know, we're not that far off from an era of basketball that will be post-Lebron and post-Stef. And the dominant players, it seems, are going to largely be players who learned the game and grew up outside of the United States. And as I say, I'm not taking a position that that's necessarily bad for the game. But I think it's an open question.

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Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. See dkng.com slash promos for deposit wagering in eligibility restrictions, terms and responsible gaming resources. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on. 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win.

I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clipper Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now

I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment,

and the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a

dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jette. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really?

Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If I have a couple good rants next week, I know you're the president of Insights. Could I be like a VP or something? If I'm insightful, is there a way to get into that club? Do you have, like, people under you that are also insightful? What's going on there?

Everybody who works for me is insightful. I just ride their coattails, right? I just say what they tell me to say. Well, he's one of our favorite people. Michael Mulvahill, follow him on Twitter, president of Insights and Analytics at Fox. This is so much fun. I know this is the world you live in,

but I do think there's an increasing interest in this. And for instance, when Eric Shanks or a Lachlan Murdoch or a head of a department comes to you, Are you giving them things that are happening now? Are you giving them trends? Are you looking around corners two and three years out? Like, what is your timetable if Shanks comes to you and says, hey, listen, we're negotiating this college football because so much of our business is fluid. How far do you look in advance?

Well, look, the answer is all the above, right? Like, we're trying to anticipate what's going to happen in the next six months, and we're also trying to anticipate what's going to happen on a five, to 10-year horizon. I think that media is changing. Obviously, it's evolving all the time, and it changes so rapidly that there is a limit to how far you can even, how far out and you can even truck you to look. I think the extent of our attempted vision right now is probably the term of the NFL contract, right? Like, this is the first year of what could be as much as an 11-year deal. And I don't know that it's really beneficial for us to.

to try to anticipate what's going to happen beyond that. But we are trying to think about what might happen on a three-year horizon, a five-year horizon, especially as a lot of viewing is moving to streaming platforms and maybe more sports rights will be going to streaming platforms. So I would say we're typically thinking in a window of anywhere from the next three days to maybe the next five to seven years. And beyond that,

somebody smarter than me can think about what the future beyond seven years looks like. It's hard enough just trying to figure out next season. In the place of the lack of leadership, college football to some degree does feel ruled, not controlled, but certainly somewhat choreographed by networks. They don't have a president. It's a $7 billion a year business. They have no presidents. Why boxing died. I have no problem with that.

I have no problem with Fox, CBS, NBC, ESPN saying, guys, you don't even have a schedule maker. Nothing's centralized. Nothing's unionized here. We're going to kind of push you in the direction. I don't think a 14 to 16 team playoff eliminate most of the bowls, make December in the first week of January, because it's kind of been a dead time in college football.

You play the Big Ten championship game, then we all sit around and watch the Sun Bowl. I got nothing against El Paso. been there three times, but it's like, this is like a, this is a wide open, we got real estate here. People are on vacation. You know, people are home. Like, they're just sitting at home for weeks in December, early January. Is it possible looking ahead?

This college football playoff will not be 12 teams. It could be 16, multiple buys, 24, or do you think the framework of 12 feels like the future or the near future? Look, I think that you can make an argument for 16. I think it would be tough to go any bigger than that. And I think even at 12, it's difficult to find a place to land all those games. It's difficult because of NFL competition. It's difficult because of the holidays. It's difficult because the athletes are student athletes, right?

These kids have to go back to campus and take final. exams. So I think there are logistical challenges just in landing a 12-team playoff that maybe aren't widely appreciated, and they're only going to become more difficult as you add more teams. But just in terms of, you know, viewership potential, public interest, competitive intrigue, for lack of a better word. Like the idea of going to a 16-team playoff, I think there's certainly enough interest to support it, sure. Michael, always a pleasure. A good 40-45 minutes for our audience. I'm headed out of town, Chicago for the weekend, which is my favorite American city. Now, people can see behind you, Beverly Hills, the trees, all that stuff.

I, you know, Big Ten office is there. You like Chicago? I love it. Love Chicago, and we love the Big Ten. We love our partners there. I love it so much. Well, I'll raise a pint at Butch McGuire's for you this weekend. Yeah, we appreciate it. Make it an old style. We love that Chicago. I will. I will. Great seeing. You always enjoy it. And thanks for having me on. Let's do it again soon. The volume. Thanks so much for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, take a moment, rate and review. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel helped an acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you not to be played with.

And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen and learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed human.