The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - Gruden's Downfall and Cardinals GM Steve Keim on Rosen to Kyler Pivot, Inside D-Hop Trade

Episode Date: October 13, 2021

Colin recalls his personal experience with Jon Gruden, and why Gruden reminds him of arguably the most infamous coach in sports history (3:00). Then Cardinals GM Steve Keim and Colin discuss some hard choices he's had to make, the decision to move off Josh Rosen for Kyler Murray (12:00), what made Steve know that Kyler was a "generational talent" (14:00), what he learned playing for Jimmy Johnson in Miami (23:00), how he approaches his job as a general manager (26:00), the challenges of building a top defense in today's NFL (28:00), dealing with the constant stress of his position (33:00), his unique relationship with his owner (35:00), how much his rivals affect his decision-making (36:00), why Steve says free agency is "fool's gold" (38:00), and the incredible inside story behind trading for DeAndre Hopkins (39:00).Make sure you follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter and YouTube for the latest content and updates and check out FanDuel for the best wagering and daily fantasy action! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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every fan. Fan duel. More ways to win. Hi everybody and welcome in. We're going to have a great guest in 10 minutes, Steve Kime, general manager of the Arizona Cardinals, who fired his coach and let go of his quarterback one year after drafting and hiring both, made a quick pivot, and he's turned the Arizona Cardinals around. I love guys like that. You know, I got about 10 minutes here on John Gruden. So I worked briefly with John Gruden at ESPN. He reminds me a lot of Bobby Knight, who also worked at ESPN. So let me tell you a story about Bobby Knight and Gruden. who as they lost their power, increasingly lashed out at others. So Bobby Knight worked at ESPN for years was legendarily difficult.

He would only work and surround himself with people who kissed the ring because he could retain his power that way. You had to revere him, treat him with a certain level of respect. Bobby would only work with people who bowed down to Bobby to make him feel powerful. And as Bobby Knight started losing power and losing games and losing esteem later in his career, he was a really insecure guy who could no longer bully people. People didn't take him seriously. People mocked him. And he wasn't a winning basketball coach at the end.

And it's very difficult when you've had power and you start to lose it. And sometimes men or people get desperate trying to retain it. So Bobby Knight one time, they scheduled him for my radio show, The Hurt at ESPN Radio. And I said, fine. They said, there are certain questions you can't ask him. And I said, no, I'll ask him whatever I want to ask him. Bobby's not going to control the interview.

The show's called The Hard, not the guest. I'll control the interview. Bobby wouldn't do it. So he went on Mike and Mike, a show that was more than willing, or certainly more willing, to allow Bobby certain liberties. I wouldn't do it. With Gruden, I had him on one or two times, but there were similarities with Gruden. When I go back and look at Gruden's career, like Bobby, is that Gruden only worked with a finite number of people at ESPN, a certain executive who would kiss the ring, a handful of producers or coworkers who would kiss the ring.

And so like Bobby Knight, as Gruden became a losing football coach in the NFL and moved further and further away from the Super Bowl, he started lashing out his people who didn't adore him or he viewed as a threat. I'll give you an example. So in these emails, he's ripping Roger Goodell. Well, Gruden was at his height in Oakland from 98 to 2001. He was Boy Genius. And then in Tampa from 2002 to about 2004 and 5. At the end, remember, he stayed until 2008, but he was losing at the end. So when Roger Goodell became commissioner in 2006, Boy Wonder was Boy Blunder.

And Goodell didn't take kindly to old school losing coach Gruden on 10. TV often ridiculing him behind his back. John had a history was pretty well known. This I can verify, kind of bad-mouthing people who he saw his threats are in the way behind their back. He did that at ESPN. And then you go to DeMorris Smith, who is negotiating 2011. And John Gruden is now, you know, he's lost games, he's been fired. He's just a TV guy. And DeMorris Smith, educated Virginia law, worked under Eric Holder, attorney general, John Somme is a threat because Demora Smith wanted a less violent game to protect the players. And again, you're usurping power from John Gruden. This is where Bobby Knight and John Gruden are very similar.

They're powerful. They're adored and beloved. As they start losing and lose that power, they lash out to people who are a threat. And people that are not going to allow the NFL to run the way John sees it fit, are a threat. And this is why Gruden struggles to adapt, and it kind of fascinates me. What I saw with those emails is a terribly insecure guy. And if you go look at the timeline of when a lot of these angry emails surfaced and who

they're directed at, they're directed at people that are not willing to give John a pass. Don't believe in his narrative. aren't going to elevate his power base. The NFL's gotten, by the way, much more analytical. John's much more raw, raw. There's a way to play the game. The world is requiring John and guys like Bobby Knight to be more tolerant, to be more thoughtful.

If you look at Gruden's career and you look at Bobby Knight's career, it's largely the same. They're big maybe in the 80s, right? It's the 90s and the world changes. And they start losing. And people don't open doors for them. And people don't shudder in fear. And they lash out at those people.

So, you know, John's approach to football, and let's be honest, he was losing at the end in Tampa and he was losing in Oakland slash Vegas. John's style is outdated. When you think of great offensive minds, Sean McVeigh. Sean Payton. Gruden's not considered in that class, and he doesn't like it. And I've always been sort of fascinated. You know, I should have a psychologist on. People in power lose it and how do they react.

And to me, Gruden and Bobby Knight, a lot of similar tendencies, bullies. And once they lose power, the only way to retain it is harshly criticize those who challenge it. and just look at who Gruden took shots at. In fact, in a weird set of circumstances, total coincidence. I dated a woman years and years ago, 25 years ago. Her current husband worked for the Raiders briefly. And I was talking to her about three years ago. She had text and we were just going back and forth, really good person.

And I said, hey, how's your husband doing with the Raiders? She said, oh, a year after Gruden took the job, he got out of there. It was so toxic. It was so alpha, so ridiculous. And her husband's, you know, a little more analytical, a little smarter person. And that was my first glimpse that it was kind of going sideways in Las Vegas slash Oakland, but almost always ends poorly for people that can't adapt. The NFL's ability to evolve is actually one of its greatest qualities.

There's a certain group of men who hate change years ago when they made the penalties for overly violent plays more punitive, a lot of people push back. And the NFL would not listen. The NFL has been able to, over the course of 30 years, increase its fan base to 187 million Americans, according to research. And 43% of those are women. The game is safer, more forward thinking, more inclusive, more analytical. ratings are up, revenue is up.

The game has frankly evolved past John Gruden, and now he is literally out of the league. And I think all of us acknowledge today. Look at Gruden's record. Last three years in Tampa, first three years and five games in Oakland and Vegas. He hasn't adapted. It's pretty obvious. So how has he retained his power?

I've said this recently on the show that I've always appreciated men specifically. because I think women can do this more easily as admit they're wrong. And Steve Kime's been the GM for seven years, eight years now in Arizona. He's been a scout personnel since 99. And scouts take great pride in getting it right. But Steve did something that you just do not see in the NFL. I can't recall anything like it. He hired a coach and drafted a quarterback.

And a year later said, all right, that shit ain't working. I'm going to go in a different direction. And Steve joins us. First of all, it's incredibly rare. it is a quality I admire and few have. So you had to make a decision and say, hey, this isn't working. Do you remember, let's talk first about the coaching situation,

really good guy, but it didn't work and you go get Cliff Kingsbury. Was there a moment on the coaching situation before we get to Kyler? A drive home, a practice, a game when you said, this young coach I hired, I just don't think it's going to work. That's a great question. And I don't know that it was one specific point, Colin. I think it was just through the experience of the time that we had spent together. And, you know, in consultation with Michael Bidwar owner, he and I had to take a long, hard look at it.

And probably what was the most difficult part was taking a hard look at the job that I had done. And the first five years of my career as an NFL GM, we won over 50 games. We had a lot of success with Bruce Ariens and Carson Palmer. And quite frankly, we stunk it up. And that is really difficult pill to swallow. And the only way you can grow as a person or as a leader is to self-evaluate. And it's humbling. And that's what I had to do.

We had to get our draft picks right. And we had to make a change at the top with our coach and feel like we got it right, but it was a huge rest to take. And then you bring in Cliff Kingsbury. Did it concern you? Because he's gotten better every year. In fact, my criticism in years one and two was the team was a little inconsistent half to half. And I thought, well, that could be Kyler Murray. He's a kid, kid quarterback.

But I find the team not just winning. It's not just winning. But the team is more consistent in terms of penalties, in terms of protect. action. The organization feels more consistent this year. Early on, first year, maybe first 20 games, did you have discussions with him? Cliff, half to half, series to series, game to game. I mean, take me through the evolution of his growth. Yeah. And I think that's another great observation because, again, you know, Cliff coming into the business and learning the NFL game, no doubt that he's a humble guy and can look in the mirror and say, hey, I got. had improved in these certain areas. But I think even a larger picture, Colin, is when you look at the way your teams build up, the makeup of your team.

And I felt like this offseason, the one thing that we had to address is emotional maturity. Yes. When I say emotional maturity, I mean people who can handle success, people who can handle adversity. Because both are going to hitch at different times, whether it's games, weeks, months. And that is the area that I feel that we've grown the most because we've added veterans. We've added draft picks of guys who are emotionally mature, who can handle the tough times, who can handle adversity. And that's really, I think, where as a whole, this organization has grown because of the type of people we brought in. So now let's pivot to Kyler Murray.

He was obviously exhilarating early. But you had to make a decision with your scouting background since 99 in Arizona. Obviously, he jumps off the tape a better athlete than Josh Rosen. But you had to bail on Josh. Was there a conversation or a moment or a piece of tape where you just went, I can't pass up on this? This is somebody, I'm going to regret this if I don't make a move on Kyler Murray. Yes. And it was, I'll never forget, I was sitting in my office and I was watching him for the first time.

And the first game I started with was Alabama. And if you went back and you watched the Oklahoma Alabama game, you saw he actually struggled in the first half. They got after him. They rushed him. They didn't protect very well. Had to use his wheels a lot. and struggled. Second half, completely lit him up.

And there was one play in particular where it was almost like a shortstop, making a great throw to the first base after getting a ground ball. I'll never forget, he jumped up off of one foot and launched the ball about 55 yards with a strike in the end zone for a touchdown. And maybe in my NFL, there was a scout at that time 22 years. I had never seen anything like it. You know, I never saw a guy that could run full speed and launch the ball off one foot and throw it with that kind of zip and juice and ball placement. I saw Pat Mahomes do some pretty rare and unusual things.

But the way Kyler Murray did it, even though he was 5'10, to me just was special. And I think it's exactly what you said. Even regardless with Josh Rosen, I mean, I think the guy had potential. We took him with the 10th pick overall. and kind of like when you sit and you think to yourself, really, the big picture, if you were drafting in the NBA and you had Clyde Drexler, but you had a chance to draft Michael Jordan, would you do it? Yes.

I mean, that player, Kylo Murray, to me, I thought was a generational talent, and I thought it was the kind of guy that could propel this organization in the right direction, the fastest. Steve Elway had a baseball background. Mahomes, Baker Mayfield, Russell Wilson, and Kyler Murray. You know, Urban Meyer in college said he loved defensive linemen who had played basketball or track, multi-sport guys, athletes, not just big weightlifter football guys. The baseball thing.

I always say that Russell and Kyler slide like baseball players. Lamar doesn't. Aaron Rogers doesn't. They slide like football players. Do you did that was that any part of it? Did you look at Russell, who's a pretty good comp for him and go, man, there's just some things here. Because my takeaway was, man, Kyler's small. I don't know if this is going to work.

Was the Russell Wilson comp a real thing for you? 100%. Yeah. And I think the Russell comp gave you the confidence that this guy could do at this level because that's what we do in this business. It's all comps. So the fact that there was never, you know, for Russell, it's, and I'll never forget John Schneider saying this. You know, John said, what's wrong with him other than he's 5'10? He's got big hands.

He's got great feet. He can escape. He can throw on the move. He can throw it from the pocket. He has great accuracy and touch. And he has good vision. Again, all the things you want in a great quarterback, other than the fact he's 510. He had compensating abilities.

And that's the same thing with Kyler, the fact that he's not 6 foot 4 or 6 foot 5. He has compensating traits that you get excited about, the feet, the explosiveness, the arm strength. And their ability to get the ball out of their hands quickly. with that baseball analogy. You know, you see those guys, it's almost like turning a double play. When they, sometimes they'll catch the snap and they're so quick with their release and their footwork. It's like a shortstop or a second basement turning too. You know, when you see that guy flip his hips and get the ball out when they throw those screens, it's amazing.

And not many guys can do that. Are you ready to amp up the excitement every college football Saturday this year? All right. It's called Colin Cowherd's Saturday spreads. It's on Fandle. Free shot at big prices. Really simple. I choose 10 of college football's biggest matchups each week.

Make your picks against the spread for each one. And the fans who get the most right win $5,000 in prizes every damn week. All right, my picks this week, Texas minus 5 hosting Oklahoma State. The Cowboys defense is pretty good this year. But I think Texas comes out of that loss feeling really good about who they are. They controlled large portions of that game late against Oklahoma. I'll take the Longhorns to win in cover. I like Carolina at home minus six and a half over Miami.

Carolina, the slightly better football team with better momentum. And I'll take Alabama to bounce back, even on the road, after their loss of the Aggies, beat Mississippi State by over 17.5. All right, those will be three of the ten picks. Go to fandul.com slash Saturday spreads. Fandul.com slash Saturday spreads. Or you can just download the Fandual app. Check in $5,000 every weekend prizes.

No purchase necessary. Age restrictions apply, depending on location. Voidware prohibited. See Fandul.com for terms and conditions. COLA and so they know I sent you exclusively on the Fandulul's Sportsbook app. 21 plus and present in Arizona, Colorado, Indiana, Michigan, Jersey, Tennessee, and Virginia or West Virginia. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep. That's me, Clifford Taylor the fourth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

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I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah.

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manage your day-to-day. Reach customers online with an ever-growing suite of channel integrations and apps, including Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and Pinterest and more. More than a store, Shopify grows with you. Go to Shopify.com slash Colin, all lowercase. Shopify.com slash Colin for a free 14-day trial full access at Shopify's entire suite of features. Shopify.com slash C-O-L-I-N. If I could be you. And you could be me for just one hour. If you could find a way to get inside.

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And they see you. Their fearless guide is this fascinating world. Find a forest near you and start. Start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the ad council. You know, your background, you played, and I believe Jimmy Johnson took over for the dolphins and you were playing back then, right? Yeah.

And so obviously very few players become, some become scouts, almost none become GMs. And, you know, everybody's got strengths and weaknesses. Belichick's obviously the great academic, the situational brilliance, has sort of struggled with skill people fitting into his system. Jimmy, when you, if I said Jimmy Johnson, do you, Steve Kime? What jumped out to you? Take people back that don't know Jimmy. I do, you do, college and pro.

What did you learn from Jimmy? What did you see in Jimmy? You've probably reached out to Jimmy more than once in your life. Go back to Jimmy and how he helped it all, maybe even not verbally. just things you noticed and the way he ran things in Miami. Well, I'll say this. And it was just a short period at a time because it was about six months and I got hurt. But he, you know, I think the way Jimmy was and the way the dolphins were at that time, it was his first year.

So to be able to change the culture the way he did, you know, and the way he did in Dallas, the way he ran an NFL program, a little more like a college program, you know, with the way they run players, whether you're a veteran or a young guy, you worked hard regardless. You know, you didn't have days off and those sort of things. Jimmy made the guys work and I'll never forget, you know, Dan Marino. I'm sure he was used to a certain style with Don Chula. When Jimmy came in and became different and Dan had to work, you know, like everybody else. But the funny thing is, is I saw Jimmy when we played in the NFC championship, I believe it was 2015. And Jay Glazer and Howie Long were making fun of me because Jimmy said hello to me and he didn't remember cutting me. And I said, man, I was such a memorable player that you didn't remember cutting me.

But I also told me the great advice that he gave me was I realized as a GM that I never want to sign guys like Steve Kime. Those short, stubby-armed, you know, overachievers, we don't want them. I'll throw this kind of theory at you. So it's been pretty bumpy for Urban Meyer. Urban Meyer was a wildly successful college coach. It hasn't been terribly bumpy for Cliff Kingsbury. And I'll just throw this at, Cliff comes to you in a more humble place. He wasn't as rich.

He wasn't as powerful. And that my guess, it's much harder for Urban to be a great listener because he's mostly been directing traffic. When Cliff comes to you having been fired from his alma mater, many people, myself included, said, wow, this is a gamble. So he psychologically has got to be more willing. He needs help. He needs Steve. He needs his scouts. Take me through what Cliff has been like.

Because now that Kyler has exploded, nobody wants to talk about the coach. But so much of this league is getting a coach that works with his young player. Take me through kind of Cliff, what you've seen, how he's grown as a coach. Yeah. I think that's a great point. It's number one, you have to identify. what are your strengths and your weaknesses? And I'm not saying that Cliff has weaknesses,

but there are things that he knows that he's good at. And that's calling plays and that's being a head coach of a football team, not so much saying, I want to micromanage and run personnel. I want to run all of our decisions in the draft, the free agency process. The two GM and the head coach have to share a vision. And you have to be on the same page. And you have to have that mutual respect. And Cliff is humble enough to be able to say,

I don't need to be the GM. I don't need to make the picks. I'll stay in my lane. And when everybody stays in their lane to me, it's when you have organizational success. It's when those lines get blurred to me is when people have issues. When coach wants to be the GM or vice versa, we all have to have that mutual respect and understanding. And I have to have the vision of what the coaches want. My job as a GM to me is not to say, hey, these are my picks.

No, I want to do the job where I am supplying the coaches with the necessary tools that they have to have to have success. You know, it's interesting. Years ago, I covered the Portland Trailblazers and the general manager was Bob Witson. And he said, you know, be careful calling about labeling players. He goes, you know, some of these guys coming out now, they can play point and they can play the four. LeBron's, of course, the greatest example.

And a couple of years ago, you took a draft pick out of Clemson. He was a playmaker, a little bit like Honey Badger, but I think a stronger player, Simmons. And Isaiah Simmons, and my takeaway was it's going to take them a while to figure out what he is, but he is something. And you take me back to that pick, your thought process, how it's developed, and perhaps maybe that's not a guy that eight years ago that works. But in today's NFL, it kind of works. Take me there with him. It's about matches, finding their ability to create mismatches, whether it's in the passing game, whether it's, It's running the football.

And to me, the more players that you can find that are hybrids or, so to speak, versatile, I've always felt like you have different layers of defense. You have the defense front, the middle section, which is your backers, and then the back end. And the more players to me that have versatility on all levels, I like guys that can play inside or outside up front, love to be able to have guys at the second level. They all have to be able to cover. The day and age of the two-down Mike linebacker doesn't exist anymore because people are too smart and they can find them. They'll spread you out and you become an un-mike linebacker.

You become a will. And same thing with the secondary. To have safeties that can cover that can invert and play in the slot and can play over receivers. The real hard part nowadays that you're coming to see is I think there's a big discrepancy in the talent at wide receiver versus the amount of secondary players that are talented. When you start getting third and fourth receivers like we have matched up on third and fourth corners, it is a major mess match. Yes. That's why you're seeing so many explosive plays, in my opinion, and you're seeing so much yardage, particularly yardage in the middle of the field

when you're seeing inside guys and corners that are nickels predominantly, facing guys like Christian Kirk and Rondale Moore. Well, I saw the other day Carolina went and got C.J. Henderson. They drafted J.C. Horn. Then they went out and got – they traded for another corner. And my takeaway was, yeah, because they were in the day. division with Brady. Yeah.

And Brady's not going anywhere. And you've got to have a legit third corner. You know, this brings up something, Steve. I noticed this years ago. So I like recruiting. I've been following high school recruiting. I'm a dork forever. And I noticed this about eight years ago in California.

There were no running backs left. The whole damn state had two. And there'd be 60 four and five star receivers. And young people generally set cultures, fashion, music, sports. Well, young people know. running backs don't get a second contract. I won't be quarterback. I want to be a wide receiver.

State of California has got two good running backs a year. So to your point, you're taking these Drake London at USC right now as a prime example. That guy's like, hey man, I'm going to play basketball and make money or I'm going wide out. Right. And it's really fascinating. And I think about this, Steve, all the time, is that does it change the way you think? Like, for instance, it's very difficult in the NFL now, Steve. if you have a good quarterback, like Kyler, you're going to have a good offense for a decade,

as long as you can protect him reasonably. Defenses don't last. Rams are number one? Oh, they're not. You look at there are teams in this league. It is almost impossible, even for two to three years straight, to have a dominating defense. Because if you do have a good corner, if you're paying your quarterback, people will overpay for a good corner. Do you find it harder now?

I think it's a reality. It is hard to retain a great defense. Do you sense this? Do you feel this? Yeah, I do. I do. And I used to think at one time, the hardest positions defined were quarterback, left tackle, pass rusher. Left tackle and pass rusher, you could go back and forth, in my opinion.

But now, to me, corner is one of the hardest. Supply and demand is so tough at that position. And every team in the NFL that we're playing against, everybody's, looking for them. You know, we're all looking in the ready list when you look at that, the guys that you have to sign to try to fill in for injuries and those sort of things, it's become really, really difficult for us. And the funny thing is, is a lot of people that worried about our team, particularly locally here, they worried about our corner play. And I'm thinking to myself, we got in week three, four, five, and now I'm looking at the teams

that we're playing and their corners are the same as all of them around the league. Everybody's struggling at corner. Unless you're Jaylen Ramsey, I mean, everybody's got some real issues. Yeah. Denver, Patrick Sertan's been a hit for them. Yeah. He's been a nice hit, Kyle Fuller, but, no, they struggle. They can't score points. When you, you're clearly a guy that, you know, pivoting for you's not difficult.

And I always had this theory. People have asked me over my career, oh, gosh, you've been on the air for 30 years. How have you lasted? And I always say fear. I have to pivot or I'm out of work. I got to find whatever. platforms growing. I'm loyal to platforms, right? For you, you have a great job. There's no school to go to to be a GM. Sometimes you lose a GM job. You never get another one. Right. I found early in my career,

I think I'm more joyful now, but early in my career, there was this kind of fear like, man, they're after me. In your day-to-day life where you're criticized for a draft pick, is it stressful? Do you sense the stress of it? How do you kind of compartmentalize that and have a joy? You joyful life as you deal with every draft pick, every Sunday, wildly scrutinized, job on the line. Yeah, I mean, that's why I don't sleep at night. I mean, it's truly, now, don't get me wrong. And the thing that's funny that you say, fear, I mean, I'm not kidding you, whether I've won executive of the year and I still wake up in the morning thinking I'm going to get fired.

And I think it's probably the roots in where I came from. My dad worked for the same company for 42 years as a machinist, you know, humbling beginnings and that sort of thing. And it's just the way I'm wired. It's the way I was wired as a player. And that part is maybe the mental game that I play with myself that gives me the edge because I always think that I have to prove somebody wrong. But yeah, I mean, it's difficult, particularly when I said this about a week ago, if you want to want a popularity contest, don't become an NFL general manager. Because whether it's the players, the coaches, somebody, you're going to make people unhappy. And you can't do things to make people like you. You have to make really tough

decisions, which are unfortunate. Guys that contracts are expiring or trading players, at some point in time, people feel like they're going to be misled. They're going to feel like you did them wrong. And you have to have tunnel vision, block out the noise, and feel like you're always doing what's right for the organization, long-term health and short-term health. I feel there's more stability with Arizona 10 years ago, I didn't necessarily think that. But it seems like you have a good relationship with the younger Bidwell son. I've only met him once. But take me to your relationship with your owner. Yeah, he's great. And I think the one thing that's great about him, maybe more than anything, is he is, he's in here every day. So he's not out on a yacht. He's not out, you know,

just having fun. He's in here working with all, like all of us are. So his, blue-collar mentality. Roll up your sleeves. He's not a flashy guy. And he loves the game. And most of all, he loves this organization. So the two coolest things are, number one, I started at the lowest level and worked my way to the top, which I think it's myself and Brian Gutikins are the only GMs in the NFL that worked as area scouts with their respective teams and worked to become GMs.

And same thing with Michael. Michael was a ballboy at one time. You know, he makes jokes about picking up jock straps in the locker room, you know. now he's the president and owner of the team. And again, he's committed to doing the right things. And he's passionate about the Arizona Cardinals for the right reasons. Steve, you're in arguably the toughest division in sports. When you draft, how much do you think about other teams?

Or is it mostly self-identification? Here's what we are. Here's what we're not. I remember years ago, Polly and Bill Napoleon said when we got Peyton Manning, we knew we'd have the lead a lot. So we drafted pass rushers. We knew you'd be chasing us in the fourth quarter. Kyler Murray presents a little bit of that. You're going to score a lot of points. Do you think going forward it will affect your vision and how you draft? Yeah, and it's already taken place. I mean, we've already started to

sort of formulate our plan around Kyler, drafting Kyler, acquiring Rodney Hudson this offseason. I wanted the strength in the middle where you have a guy who, an older veteran who's done it, been there, done it, and can help identify defenses and help Kyler from a mental standpoint early on in the process. And then now all of a sudden, you look at the perimeter talent we have to go along with Kyler and then getting the lead and then also having guys who can rush the pass or guys like Chandler Jones, J.J. Watt. You mentioned Isaiah Simmons. I mean, you don't want to get into a situation. where you're turning down good football players, but there is something to be said about how you build your roster

and how are you going to play your opponents, which, again, you know when you're going to get Russell every year. And there's a lot of stability around the league with some of those guys. And now Matthew Stafford, there's a certain way you have to play those teams. You know, when you made that deal for Chandler Jones, you know, Belichick is this iconic guy. He'd burned a lot of people. He'd made a lot of good trades.

Where's their apprehension, like, looking behind closed doors, I'm going up against the wizard because he's been a huge hit for you. You have won that trade. That is not disputable. And for a couple of years, they couldn't generate the kind of pass rush. That was one of the few where you look back a couple years later and go, wow, New England misses that player and Arizona stole that player. Do you remember where you were when you made that deal and what was going through your mind?

I do because I remember calling him and asking him if, you know, again, sometimes you just have to spit ball because you think to yourself when you're watching the tape, there's no chance they're going to trade this guy because of how much you like the player, the talent, the position that he plays, how hard they are to find. So, hey, why not throw it out there? I mean, all they can say is no, right? So you say, hey, Bill, would you consider moving on from Chandler Jones? And I'll never forget, you know, with Bill's reaction, maybe, you know, I'll think about it.

And I'm thinking to myself, wow, really, you know, no different than DeAndre Hopkins or at the time Carson Palmer when I talked to the Raiders. You know, I liked what I saw in Carson, even though they weren't winning a lot of games. He threw for over 4,000 yards that year. Yeah. And thought, put him in Bruce Arion's offense, vertical stretch in the field. Yeah, it's good fit. And sure enough, it was. So when you're making those trades again with guys like him and D. Hop and Chandler, you know, guys that you think are really good football players, you always wonder, what do they know that we don't? That's why I always talk about free agency the way I do. In general, truly view it as fools gold because number one, why are they on the on the market? Two,

we don't have intimate knowledge of that player unless we have a coach that coached him at that team. So why is that team ready and willing to move on from them? And we're putting this type of contract in front of them with this type of guaranteed money. It's scary. That DeAndre Hopkins, that day you signed him, did you drive home thinking, holy shit, we got a guy. It was terrifying because we agreed to the deal, Bill O'Brien and myself, and the pandemic hit. So trade is not consummated until you have each player pass the physical. So David Johnson and D. Hop had to pass physicals. We couldn't travel because of the pandemic.

So we had to sit around on pins and needles, number one, holding the secret that we have D'Andre Hopkins coming. And then, two, the fact that it's not done until there's a physical. So you're always, you know, praying that this guy is going to pass the physical. And thank goodness they both did and it all worked out. But for about a month or maybe even two months, I had to sit on that with nobody knowing, no reports. And truly, there were days where I remember waking up and I remember calling Michael Bidwell and said, we're really getting DeAndre Hopkins, aren't we? You know, like, really?

Like, is this really real or am I dreaming? I mean, the pandemic was screwy enough. You know, you already had stuff going on in your mind. you were playing games with yourself. So it was pretty difficult. I find you to be an incredibly easy guy to root for. We have a personal Eric Tannenbaum's a buddy of mine. Absolutely. Great friend of years. He just thinks the world of you. And if anybody that likes Eric, I love. So Steve, I appreciate this.

I love when you can educate my audience and share stories. And this has been as much fun in 30 minutes as I can have. Let's talk again, please. Absolutely. Thanks, Colin. All right. That was fun. That shit was fun right there. I'm not going to lie. That was fun. You don't get to do that on TV or radio.

30 minutes of Steve Kime stories. Can you imagine having a secret on DeAndre Hopkins for 30 minutes? I couldn't keep it. I couldn't do it. I would just at some point my mouth would open and words would come out and it would end up in the paper. At the volume sports, Twitter, Instagram rate review, subscribe, YouTube channel two. Talk soon. The story of the rose is a story of love.

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