The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - Ian O’Connor on Rodgers/Jets Pressure, Belichick Backslide, Zion/Knicks Potential

Episode Date: June 30, 2023

First Colin reacts to reports that the Sixers will attempt to trade James Harden after exercising his $35.6 million ‘23-’24 player option, and if the Knicks make sense as a potential landing spot. Then, Ian O'Connor -- NY Post columnist and author of Coach K: The Rise and Reign of Mike Krzyzewski and Belichick -- and Colin discuss the Mets nosedive, if they have a realistic shot to out bid the Dodgers for Shohei Ohtani, expectations for Aaron Rodgers’ 1st year with the Jets, if Rodgers will have problems with the NYC media, if Bill Belichick can stop the Patriots recent offensive backslide, if the Giants are really a well run organization, and why Zion Williamson to the Knicks could change the NY sports landscape.  Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates! #Herd #VolumeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The volume. All right, we're going to get to Ian O'Connor, talk all things Mets implosion, Yankees' limitations,

Aaron Rogers and the Jets are the Giants well-run in New York, and who is Jalen Brunson's co-pilot to take the Knicks to a different level? The great Ian O'Connor, good 40-minute interview, can't wait. So Woj reports that the Sixers, Hardin is opting in to the 76ers, going to sign a contract, but Philadelphia is going to seek trade options. This is, of course, the right move. Tyrese Maxi is ascending into a number two and beat as a number one. Tobias Harris is certainly good enough to be a three. Hardin is not a trustable winning post-season player.

You get nothing on the defensive end. He's quirky. He's odd. He has become a better distributor over time. Never been in great shape. I just don't think he's a winning basketball player. And I've said this about a lot of dynamic guards. Westbrook, Wall, Derek Rose, James Hardin,

highlight reels, John Morant. I don't think they're winning players. I just think they're gifted players. So I think Daryl Morey, the GM of the Sixers, is making the right move. NBA GMs are desperate suckers for talent, and you will be able to find somebody that takes James Hardin. But I think they're a better team without him. What I would try to find is another dynamic guard who will give you something on the defensive end.

Now, there is speculation that they, you know, perhaps. Perhaps Philadelphia is interested in Damian Lillard. I don't know that to be true. But, you know, I get into these discussions all the time. You know, Kyrie Irving is visiting Phoenix. Drama is a killer in the NBA. It destroyed the Mavericks in Memphis late in the year. Destroyed them.

The Lakers got rid of Westbrook, played great basketball. Harden is drama. The Brooklyn team. When you had Harden, a Kyrie, Durant, Three Hall of Famers, nothing but drama. And the reason being is an NBA locker room, is a smaller locker room, fewer players, so one agitator can blow up the rest of the locker room. Whereas in baseball, a third of the team, pitchers down on the bullpen, professional football,

half the guys, one side of the field, half the guys the other. Basketball, one plane, 13 guys, seven that matter, eight that play. One selfish agitator, one quirky. the odd personality blows up a room. So Bones Highland at the trading deadline shipped out of Denver, chemistry got better, they never look back. So to me, Kyrie Irving creates drama, John Morant, now drama, James Hardin, drama. These guys are team killers.

But there is a unique relationship with young NBA fans, not all NBA fans, but young fans who wear the sneakers of stars, that they're emotionally attached to players like international soccer fans are to their Messi and Rinaldos. They look past their flaws because they wear their players. You don't wear cleats from football players or baseball players. You don't walk around with a glove. If you look at what the NBA has, the fans, especially young fans, have a much higher level of tolerance of bullshit with NBA stars because they wear them.

That's why the Jordan LeBron debate is so fierce. It's not just Michael's game. It's Michael's shoes. There are people that collect them. Every time they get up in the morning, they go to their closet and have 12 pairs of Jordans. Right. So the loyalty to an international soccer star

and the loyalty to an NBA star from young fans is so intense and deeply embedded emotionally that they just overlook Westpenter. Westbrook, Wall, Harden, Steph Marbury's flaws. They wear their stuff. But I think the smartest GMs in the league, sometimes you have to take on a player that's high maintenance to get you to another place. But I think Philadelphia is absolutely making the right move.

Sign Harden, move him. There's a sucker out there every minute. Somebody needs offense. You know, I mean, to be honest with you, Westbrook worked briefly with the clippers. They needed somebody to run the offense. They had good wings. and Paul George and Kauai missed so many games. Westbrook shows up every night,

gives you 34 minutes, gives you production, he'd kind of work with the Clippers. Like if Kauai and Paul George played every night, he'd be disruptive, but they don't. That's why I thought Westbrook with AD and LeBron would work. LeBron's old misses 30 games,

AD misses games all the time. He'd be productive. He'd play, he'd play hard. So, but I think Harden got the Sixers to a level before Maxie was ready to be the number two. I think they needed hardened to be the two.

But I think they're making this move for a lot of reasons. One, better chemistry and two, Tyrese Maxie is now ready to be the second star, the co-pilot, the Robin of the Batman. Now, Woj reports that the Clippers and the Knicks will engage with the Sixers. I do not think it fits for the Knicks. I wouldn't be surprised if Hardin's people are leaking that. They don't need him. They don't need a ball-centric guard. They have their pilot.

They have their quarterback and Jalen Brunson. They need a big who can score. As far as the clippers, they've been looking for a guard for years. They tried John Wall, didn't work. They tried Westbrook. Sort of work, but it's not a long-term plan. I don't think Hardin is the answer. but in a city where they're trying to grab market share,

going into a new building, Hardens a star. Kauai's a star. Paul George is a semi-star. Paul George and Kauai are very good defensive players. Hardens not. So that does help Hardin's case. The Clippers feel much more realistic than the next two. Well, he's my favorite East Coast voice, Ian O'Connor,

a four-time New York Times best-selling author, the book on Coach K, Derek Jeter, Belichick, three for three, all fantastic. New York Daily News, now the New York Post, USA Today, ESPN, known him, loved him for years. He is now joining us, and we got a lot to talk about. So I remember when I lived in Connecticut, you're really in the belly of the beast, Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, Phillies. It's just sports talk is driven by it. Out West, it is not.

It's more of an NBA NFL discussion. but the intensity and the passion is redeemable. And I missed so much not hearing sports talk radio in New York after the Mets late inning melt against the Phillies. I watched it. I just happened to stumble on it. Good hell. Ian, that is as hits batsmen, walks, one hit multiple runs. was that the tipping point?

Is Buck Showalter in trouble after that moment? I don't know if it's a tipping point, Colin, because it feels like I live with a fatalistic Mets fan. My wife's been a diehard Mets fan for 45, 50 years, basically. And so it feels like they just run into each other, and I can't differentiate one from the other. And I don't think it's the tipping point as far as Showalter is concerned because last year he won 101 games.

That's the second most victory. in the history of the New York Mets franchise. Davy Johnson won 108, 1986, and nobody's done better than Showalter did in year one. So I don't think you can fire him in the middle of year two. I really don't. And so I think he deserves the rest of the season, however it unfolds, and it's getting uglier by the hour.

And then have the conversation in the offseason. Is he worthy of year three? But I think to whack him in the middle of O2 would be doing him a real injustice, because just based on his track record, he did so much good last year that I think actually you could make a case. I remember the general manager of the Mets Steve Phillips did this in 1999. The Mets were unraveling.

And one night he decided I'm going to fire all of Bobby Valentine's coaches. And the Mets went on an absolute tear, made the playoffs, and almost made the World Series that year. You could argue it makes sense to fire a coach right now. Or maybe they should have done it last week and try to ignite the team. that way, keeping Showalter and the GM, Billy Epler in place at least for now, I think that makes more sense in firing Showalter. You know, they're not hitting. They're not getting the ball in play. If Pete Alonzo is not healthy, they don't have any power. It's pretty simple. They're not doing anything particularly well. But I would argue if you look at the Verlanders and the

Scherzeres, they were built for late season baseball. They almost assumed they would be good late in the year. They built this team, you know, for July. I would say August 15th on to be ready to go. So, you know, when I look, I always feel you can buy relevance. It's very difficult to buy wins. Lindorra's not playing well. They're not hitting. I was thinking about this before the interview today.

I can't remember the last, because the Mets team last year really struggled to put together runs and rallies. It wasn't a great hitting team. It lacked power. when is the last maybe it's just again you would know this when's the last met's team that was an offensive power that's a good question and i'm going back to 2000 they're in the world series against the yankees and and they've had a few teams here and there that i would put in that category at least close to it certainly not this one and you're right lindor is not a 341 million dollar

player though he's been playing better lately and and that's part of the problem now Steve Cohen just had a press conference. I'm not sure why he called that press conference because they really say a whole hell of a lot. Other than he's fortunate to have found Billy Epler as general manager, yet I'm still looking for a president of baseball operations to effectively replace him. So I'm not sure how that makes much sense. A lot of people in baseball believe David Stearns and the Milwaukee Brewers will be the guy in the offseason when he's finally a free agent. I think Steve Cohen can try and hire him for a couple of years.

And then you go from there, but it's starting pitching. The Metsu used to be known for starting pitching. That's really what's failed them column this year. And it's been a domino effect from that point. It's Verlander. He gives you five innings. He throws 100 pitches. He's got to come out.

Now you have to go to the middle of relief. That's been a real problem on this team, trying to get to the good back of the bullpen arms. And even last night with Hartwig coming in the game, a tied game, and right away you're trailing. That's been the problem. It's Senga, Verlander, and other pitchers, the starting pitchers, not giving you any length.

And then you're using the worst players on your team as a bridge. And it's a very wobbly one at that. And that's really been a big part of why the Mets are where they are. You know, I think one of the things I learned when I lived back out east, and I actually miss it, is the intensity of the media and the intensity of the pressure. For all the money the Mets have now and for all the money the Yankees have had for years, I couldn't say the last time the Yankees drafted and developed an ace. They just, they went and purchased pitching. And I understand you could say they have great revenue, but so are the Braves and they do it. Sort of the Dodgers and they do it.

Braves have no problem with that. It's not just a revenue issue. Is it possible that, and I saw this with the Brooklyn Nets, the downside of New York is it's expensive to live there. It's expensive to travel. You need to win. People aren't going to spend money on those tickets when there's two NFL teams, two baseball teams, two NBA. that some of what has happened in New York baseball is just a pressure cooker and the reality of this baseball-centric market. It puts enormous pressure on players.

Well, certainly that's part of it, and particularly when baseball is the ultimate, like golf, the ultimate game of failure. And on top of that, the 24-7 scrutiny and the social media age, New York being the biggest, loudest market is certainly in there among the reasons that you could rank at the top of the list as to why the Mets in particular, are enravelling this season. I think the Yankees with that third wild card are going to make the playoffs every year. And that third wild card and with the Metsu should keep you, if you're spending X amount of dollars, you should be in the tournament.

And in baseball, as you know, we saw last year with the Phillies. And of course, they made a change in the middle of the season, firing Gerardi. You can, once you get in, anything can happen, particularly in baseball. It's like, and I had this conversation with Alex Rodriguez years ago and to some extent with Aaron Judge in baseball,

or in basketball, you give LeBron James and his prime the ball every time up the floor in a big spot. You can't send Aaron Judge or Arod to the plate every time in the ninth inning in a big spot in October. It's not the way baseball works. So there's a lot on the individual superstar in baseball like A. Lindor is not really a superstar. He's not playing like one or any of these guys to try to carry a team because they can only do so much. It's the nature of that sport. So I think there's a lot of pressure on the stars in baseball because they can't impact winning and losing like a quarterback in football or a two guard in the NBA. New York magnifies that in baseball. And I think, again, going back to the Mets where they are right now is that they didn't develop, the pitcher

they did develop, DeGron left, of course. And Matt Harvey was good for a while. They developed him. And right now they don't have a top pitching prospect. So Cohen realized that. that when he bought the team. So I'm going to go out and spend a ton of money on the Max Scherzer's and Justin Verlanders and try to do it that way. The problem is it leaves you with a $445 million bill at the end of the season that could be a sub-500 season. You know, you tweeted something the other day about Otani and the Mets. And it's kind of understood the Dodgers this offseason pulled back. They let Cody Bellinger go. Kershaw's contract was quick.

Justin Turner, they pulled back on revenue. And the feeling was they were saving another $75 million for the Otani deal, a remarkable player, but the Angels are literally the least talked about franchise in Southern California outside of the hockey teams. So the Dodgers, there's a real sense that Otani and the Dodgers are working behind the scenes now, though the Angels have said we'd never trade for him. I'm not sure, trade him. I'm not sure why.

if I could get something for Otani knowing he's leaving. So there's a sense in Southern California, he'll be a Dodger. They certainly have the revenue streams. They outdraw, I think, the second place Yankees by 7,000 people per game. I mean, the Dodgers are an enormously popular franchise like the Yankees in New York. It's an ATM machine. Boston doesn't feel like they can compete financially. John Carlos Stanton, it's not a miss, but it's not worth what they paid for.

Garrett Cole's not a miss, but it doesn't feel like it's been a hit. Scherzer not a hit. Would the Mets or the Yankees be willing to spend the most money ever on a baseball star, would they? I think the Mets will and the Yankees will not be willing to do that. I think Garrett Kohl, I'd push back a little bit on that. I think he's had a couple of shaky postseason moments, but I think he's lived up to the terms of his contract. And so I think Steve Cohen now, this is more reason for him to go out and spend, God knows what, $650 million to try to out bid the Dodgers for Otani.

This is going to be fascinating to watch because the Mets are going to miss the playoffs. They're eight and a half games behind the third wildcard spot, which is really hard to believe at $445 million when you include the revenue luxury taxes that Steve Cohen is paying. So is he going to double down when his farm system is not producing great talent right now, at least on the pitching front. And we'll see about Alvarez, who I think will be a really good catcher

for the next dozen years for the Mets. Beatty will see. But I do think Steve Cohen now has more reason to go all in on Otani and try to outpid the Dodgers and just spend them into oblivion. He was a guy who's worth $18 billion or close to it.

So that is going to be a death match in the offseason between the Dodgers and the Mets. the Dodgers will win it. They're certainly the leader in the clubhouse, but I think Steve Cohen is going to make them really sweat on that one and spend a lot more money than they really want to spend. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'll say it. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw,

unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. All right, pivot to football. The early season schedule is rough for the Jets.

Aaron's never played behind a mediocre offensive line. One of the things New England and the Packers have done is establishes. consistent top 10 O lines without drafting offensive linemen in the first round. So, I mean, he's had pro bowlers all over the O line. So this O line is Elijah Vera Tucker, major questions at both tackles. I believe a rookie center. Not a ton of depth. I think it's a little bit of an undoing for this is going to be first defensive coach for Aaron Rogers,

first suboptimal O line, really tough to. vision and a harsh city that's not terribly forgiving. What is a realistic expectation for the Jets nation, for the people you talk to? When you write a column, the reaction, it's easy for me to just say, I mean, I think it's a nine-win team. The division's probably the best in football. What say you and a New Yorker who's a Jets fan? What is realistic that will satisfy them at year end, take a Super Bowl out?

I'll say 10 and 7, make the wild card, finish second behind Buffalo, and win a wild card round game and then losing the divisional round at Kansas City at Cincinnati, get whacked in that second playoff game. But I think that's the problem is, look at that schedule. I mean, the first 10 games, they could be 3 and 7 and not be playing that poorly. So they're playing both Super Bowl teams, right, Philly and Kansas City. They're in that division. They're starting against Buffalo, but at home. So that's a game. They really almost have to win.

If you look at the first 10 games. So I think the formula for success, at least the way I define it, is go four and six in those first 10 games. And then there are winnable games. Those final seven, they can go maybe five and two, six and one, sneak into the playoffs as a wild card, win a game, and then face the end in the division around at Kansas City. So I think that's a successful season. And then add to enter year two of Aaron Rogers as one of the Super Bowl favorites to get out of the AFC. I think that is at least somewhat realistic, but maybe too optimistic, perhaps, in talking to some Jets fans who are used to. I always say this.

They hate when I say it. The Jets have not reached the Super Bowl, never mind win one since Man stepped on the moon. That was a long time ago. So they're used to, they're wired to to feel the worst is going to happen. But I'm going to be pretty optimistic. I'll say 10 and 7 and make the playoffs. Yeah, it'll be really interesting because the Packers furnished him

with very good protection and two offensive coaches. Say what you will about Mike McCarthy. There is, we're seeing this in New England with Belichick, who's virtually tone deaf to offense, made a DC, the OC, can't draft skill players to say, his life. Even the best defensive coaches, they really, they don't talk the same language. So this is Aaron's and Nathaniel Hackett's coming off are bruising, ugly performance in Denver. So I do feel the pressure is really on Aaron to run the offense. And he's okay at that,

but he can also be a little aloof and a little disengaged at times. Here's the thing that I've noticed about Aaron that I don't think he's a bad guy. He can be a little bit of a finger pointer, a little passive aggressive. When things go south, New York is going to force you to answer tough questions. A Green Bay Midwestern media, Ian, is just not the same. Like you drive, I can remember driving to work when I was at ESPN and I would turn on New York radio. And it would set the tone for the discussion of the week. Like, it's a tone setter.

And I think you can kind of roll your eyes if you're Aaron Rogers at the small market, you know, Green Bay, relax. You go relax to New Yorkers. That's not going to play. Like, they don't relax. What they're known for is intensity. How do you think the Aaron media thing will play out? Well, so far, it's been a really good marriage. I think he came in wanting to make the best possible impression on the New York market, the fans and the media. I think the New York media thing is a little bit of a myth since I've been in it for 37 years in that. I think there's just more of us, we'd probably judge you a little more harshly than every other market outside of Philly and Boston. But I don't think the New York media is unfair. It's large and it's tough,

but not unfair. So he's got an opportunity here. I think if you ever won a championship, what would that do for his legacy? I mean, you have Tom Brady sitting there on the top of the mountain with seven rings and Aaron's at one. If you want to close that legacy gap to win a Super Bowl for the New York Jets would go a long way towards doing that. And so I think Rogers, he may have been disengaged in Green Bay, particularly at the end. He does. He has occasionally pointed fingers in a passive, aggressive way. But he hasn't been that figure so far in New York at all.

I went out to all the open OTAs. And by all accounts, talking to players, coaches, executives, he has been fully engaged in meeting room. and practices and just watching him. He's constantly talking to receivers, the tight ends, offensive linemen. Hey, do this. Let's talk about that cut you just made coming out of your route. I kind of like you to do it this way. There's been a ton of that.

So so far, it's early, obviously. We haven't started training camp yet. He has been a very, very good leader on and off the field by all accounts. Let's see if it holds up. And let's see how that translates on the field in September when they play for real. But as much as people have talked about what an all-time great quarterback can do for this hapless franchise, I think there's a lot that New York Jets can do for Aaron Rogers. Like I just said, if he somehow can win one in the two or three years that he plays here in New York and gets ring number two, it's going to feel like he won four ranks. It's almost like what Messier did coming to New York in 94, even though he had won five in Edmonton, he wins a cup, ends a, what, a 54-year-old.

drought and the one cup people talk about when they talk about his legacy is the one he won for the rangers in new york and he'll tell you that too so i think that's the kind of opportunity that rogers has let's see how it plays out there's a book behind you belichick it's a great book i highly recommend to our audience uh i i had uh ian on for the coach k book i thought it's just the definitive book on Coach K and the Duke program, captain with Derek Jeter and Belichick. And Belichick, you know, if you go look at the history of sports, there'll be cultural changes in all of them. We've seen it with baseball analytics.

You know, it used to be the strikeout. Dave Kingman was almost like a cartoonish. Today he'd be Cody Bellinger, right? Home run or strikeout. It's not as punitive, right? Like analytics have changed. And football, it's not as analytically driven as basketball. NBA, the three-point shot small ball, although I do think we're pivoting back to international

bigs and highly skilled bigs. But in the NFL, it's more of an offensive league, mostly because of that nearly billion dollar check they wrote for CTE, head injuries. This league is all about offense. It's good for ratings. It's good for fantasy. And it's good for lawsuits. Like don't, right?

Don't be too. There's already a regulated level of violence. And so if you look at the remaining coaches the last several years, they're all offensive. I think it was two years ago. Every NFC playoff team had an offensive coach. Belichick has looked particularly tone deaf dealing with Mack Jones. And you know that whole culture. I'm going to throw a theory at you and shoot holes in it.

But Belichick largely ran the Patriots dynasty. Robert Kraft hands off. Brady was never subversive ever. It was Bill's team. In fact, later he complained about not having a say in the offense. And so Brady eventually leaves because he just doesn't get control. Even though there was a moment Tom goes to Kraft, they sell off Garapolo. And it was the one time Belichick was not running the show. So Mack Jones comes in. McEnroe Jones, a little bit of an ego, a little bit of an attitude. And it feels like Bill is really punishing him and marginalizing him. They re-signed Avanti Parker, Judeo Smith-Schuster. Those are players that need coaching and schemes to get open. They do not separate. They have no tight-end receiver that is an ad libber, a playmaker,

maybe the slowest team in the perimeter in the league. And what it does, it drives the organization, once again, back through Bill. Run game defense. I'm not going to create a quarterback who is so powerful that can go through the owner. And maybe I'm reaching on this, but I'm watching their moves. They make no sense. They drafted three guards and two kickers.

First three picks were defense. They're the slowest offense in the league. Doesn't it strike you odd over the last two drafts, two years? the lack of in a cultural shift, the lack of offensive awareness, am I missing something? No, I think it has been very surprising. And Bill's history, though, if you look at how many Hall of Famers, true Hall of Famers, that Tom Brady ever play with. Randy Moss, they didn't win a championship together.

That didn't last long. And of course, Grunk. Outside of that, in terms of weapons, Brady was elevating a whole lot of people out there. And so, and Mac Gell, He's not Tom Brady. He has a chance maybe to win a championship or two. This is such a huge year for him now that he has a real offensive coordinator again at Bill O'Brien. And Belichick has never really been big on drafting weapons and running a high-powered offense,

even though in 2007 when they brought him Randy Moss and Wes Welker was at the height of his powers too, that offense was a complete juggernaut and shattered all kinds of records. And in my book, I gave Bill credit for being a defensive genius, probably the best defensive coach of all time, and suddenly shifting and with help from his staff, of course, but utilizing the turning that slot position into such a weapon, which then everybody tried to copy. And then later going with the two tight ends with Gronk and Hernandez. And so he became a bit of an innovator on offense, but you're right. And I think Brady would complain privately to people about where are my weapons?

He did have Randy Moss, maybe the greatest receiver of all time for a little while. They didn't win one together they should have. But outside of that and Gronk, a tight end, he's been doing or did do a ton of elevating of people who were pretty good to good football players, but not great players at the skill position slots. So I think, yeah, on one hand, it's a bit sort of. surprising. On the other hand, when has he done it? He just had a much better quarterback than he has right now. You know, I want to talk to Giants. I had this rant a couple of weeks ago, and I said,

we've always known how great Peyton Manning is, but because of his greatness, we never quite gave Eli Manning, his just deserves. His two greatest passes in the Super Bowl as he beat Brady and Belichick were to Mario Manningham and David Tyree. Plaxico and him, had some good days, but he did it with a defensive line, a little bit of a rigid head coach. He didn't have great offensive lines. And I said, if you take Eli's prime of 12 years out, what have the Giants been in 20 years? Is that because of Peyton's greatness and kind of flamboyant funny personality, Eli is much funnier now that he's retired, that are the Giants really well run? They ran through GMs, they've run through coaches, that we've never quite said to ourselves,

he wanted Ole Miss. He beat Brady Belichick twice. He never had great receiving cores. I'll ask you, take out Eli's 12 prime years. It's an abysmal record. Are the giants well run? Well, I said this before, but. John Marrow was a good owner when he had a good head coach and a good quarterback.

And that was Tom Coughlin and Eli Manning. When he didn't, he was a bad owner. And that lasted a while. And now he's got a GM in place in Joe Shane, the head coach in Dable, and maybe a quarterback in Daniel Jones who know what they're doing. So he's back to being a pretty good owner again. But he was a bad owner for a while. There's no question.

It was making bad hires, Gettleman, and some of the coaches that were brought in, Pat Schumer. I mean, that never made any sense to hire that guy. And so finally, I think they got it right. And they've had some dart periods, of course, in their history of the Giants have, followed by some tremendous periods with Parcells. And then with Cofflin, really, if you look at it, in that Cofflin, Eli, error that you're talking about, their best team, they really should have won three titles. Their best team was the 2018. If Plaxcoe doesn't accidentally shoot himself, Kaufflin told me they thought they were winning the whole thing. That was the only like dominant Giants team.

They were 11 and O that year. And then all hell broke loose after the Plaxico accidental shooting. So they could have won three titles and they blew it. And so never got that one back. But yes, you could certainly argue the Giants were a poorly run franchise. You take, you're taking away a lot though. That's a lot of years there that Eli was. was a good, I don't think Eli was ever a great or one of the best three quarterbacks in the NFL in any particular season.

But he was very opportunistic. And he was good. And then he was great in the biggest moments against the greatest coach and greatest quarterback of all time. And that'll probably get him in the Hall of Fame. Yeah, I always felt he had a unique ability. You know, they talked about when he was a kid, nothing bothered him. Whereas Eli was, whereas Peyton Manning was not. known as a bit of a teeth clencher in big moments.

Really intense. People I know who know Peyton, very, very intense. I've done a couple interviews where I've had Peyton and Eli together and Eli's always like late and Peyton is dogged him and Eli's laughing. Eli had, it's not aloof because he has no arrogance. Eli had, I just, I love the guy. He reminds me a little bit of my son. Everything rolls off his back.

nothing is outrageous he's just and i think some of that in i don't know if you have relationships like this that his brother was so intense maybe it's to curry favor with dad and mom he was the funny guy right like in the family and so i always thought eli's personality it was so unique you know brady's so focused and russell wilson so focused and and it's like elize like this kind of country smart funny pressure doesn't face it him. I remember early in his career thinking, this guy's one of the best two-minute quarterbacks. It was literally like, can we just keep him in the two-minute drill? The rest of the game, I have my apprehension. He was, what was he like to cover?

Interesting. And so he's, as you said, he's shown more of his personality in retirement than he did as an active player. But he was accountable and always there. And he had a little rule. If we win, I'm not talking on Mondays. He had his usual day of Wednesdays when he talk before the next game. If we lose, I'll talk on Mondays because I want to take my fair share of the blame. And when the Giants won on Sunday, he wanted to make sure other teammates had their moment in the sun on Monday with the media and didn't want to detract from that. I remember one time they were playing the Patriots in the regular season. He had already beaten the Patriots in the Super Bowl once, if not twice. And it was a Monday and they were coming off a win. And I went to the

Giants, the people. And I said, hey, you guys are playing the Patriots. It's Eli. I know you won yesterday. wants his teammates to get the credit, he needs to talk today, even if it's just for six minutes. So one of the PR reps walked over to Eli whispered to him. I saw him nod his head. And he understood he got it. He realized that that was a day. That was one day he needed to make an exception because it was the New England Patriots that they were playing the following Sunday. And he did it. Eli always did the right thing. And that was the right thing. It's a little window into his soul. But I had conversations many with Archie about the difference between Peyton and Eli, and Archie said, could you imagine if Peyton ever played in New York? He said, the media

and Peyton would have been at each other's throats in week one of his rookie year. He said, Peyton would have, it would have been a disaster, Peyton in New York. So he said, thankfully that never happened. Eli was the perfect personality for New York because, like you said, he let everything roll off his back. I remember one time Archie told me that it was a day where Tiki Barber just ripped Coughlin in the media. And Archie called, and Archie called, and Archie called up Eli on the phone and realizing Eli didn't care was oblivious and Eli was heading to the facility but the call went to voicemail and Archie said, Eli, you have to know this. Tiki just blew up Kaufflin. When you arrive at work, they're going to ask you about it. You need to know about this.

So he said, that's how Eli was. Like he wouldn't have cared. I'm sure if he walked in there, he would have handled the questions the way he always did. And he said, but there were certain times where it was maddening, I needed to call my own son and say, you have to understand. This is New York. Tiki just blew up Coughlin. You have to answer this. Be prepared. So I always got a kick out of those Archie stories. Well, you know, New York has an interesting history. If you come in as a non-star and develop into one, Judge, Jeter, Eli, Phil Sims, it always works. When you come in, even as a college player as a star, John Carlos Stanton, A-Rod, Carmelo Anthony.

I'm probably missing. Jeremy Shockey was a huge going to be a star player. There's something about it in New York. Maybe it's the expectations of New York. Like, they hold you. Most of the great iconic New Yorkers, and I wasn't around during the Manila era, if you come in and develop into one,

there's just an appreciation by New Yorkers. I always think, And I think NBA guys know this. Like they, not a lot of free agents. That's why Jalen Brunson's such a perfect nick. He's becoming a star in New York. That's exactly how to do it. When you bring in Marbury, when you bring in, it doesn't work.

It doesn't feel the same. Well, the one time it did was Reggie Jackson. I know we're going back almost 50 years. But he was a star and he wanted to be a bigger star. It worked to the tune of two championships now. It was a pretty ugly ending. But Reggie was one guy who came in as a star. It was combustible, but it worked.

And the relationship with Thurman Munson, and they were complete opposites. And at times it got really tense in that clubhouse. Obviously, I wasn't there. I was 13 years old. But reading all the accounts, but Reggie became an even bigger star and just thrived on that spotlight and all the tension around that team. Yeah. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions,

my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw,

unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrate. One week I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford. and a TikTok podcast network on TikTok. I want to get a NICS discussion in because the free agent stuff today, when this airs on Friday, the free agent opens up.

I've said this. I believe Jalen Brunson is the perfect New York Knicks star. So when I lived in Connecticut and I still have friends in New York, the Knicks were actually the most popular team. Here's why. Because my baseball friends were split and my NFL fans were split, Giants, Jets, Yankees, Mets. everybody had the Knicks as their favorite New York team or second.

Like some people would be big Yankee fans. But the Knicks, the Nets were irrelevant. The Knicks, every friend I had in the Northeast, love the Knicks. It's an incredible baseball market. It reminds me of Golden State. I grew up with the Rick Berry, Al Addles, the coach, Clifford Ray, Jeff Mullen, Keith Wilkes teams. And then they were bad forever. And people forgot how great the Bay Area is at a basketball city.

When I lived out east, I couldn't believe the Knicks would sell out. They were poorly owned, poorly run, not likable, couldn't get tickets. And I said a couple months ago, I said, Jalen Brunson is literally like Phil Sims. He's becoming a star in New York. And I don't know how great he is. That guy fits that city. like Villanova, late rounder,

tough, accountable, almost better in big spots, like better in the fourth than the first quarter, better against the heat than he would be against the magic. They have Julius Randall, there's Josh Hart, there's R.J. Barrett. To you, Randall feels like an expensive two.

He's probably more of a three. Do you think there is a deal around Brunson that feels like, because Brunson's going to need another high-end player. Is there something? Is it a Zion? Be a fortune teller here. What do you think feels right? I wrote this a while back.

I always thought Carl Anthony Towns would end up in Nick. Grew up in New Jersey, ties with Leon Rose who's running the Knicks now as his former client. And obviously, it didn't work well with Tibbs the first time around in Minnesota. they clashed. And I think part of that was Jimmy Butler. But I think that I know for a fact that Tom Thibodeau would be more than willing to coach Carl Anthony Towns again. Now, the question is, how much better do you think Cat is than Julius Randall? Is there a significant difference between those two players? I think he's better than Randall. And Randall, Colin, if you look at it and his two playoff opportunities with the Knicks hasn't played that well. Now, he did restore most of his value. this year after last year's near disaster. But he played at a really high level in the regular season this year. And I think he does have value around the league to some extent.

So I think you could package him with the Knicks have a lot of draft assets and some good emerging young players to get a Carl Anthony Towns if you feel like, now that I do believe now that I didn't think this when they got Jaylon Brunson. I think you can win a championship with Jalen Brunson as your second best player. I did not think that when they signed him. not only how you felt, I just can't get over how impressed I am with him and everything you said I agree with about Brunson on and off the court. Brunson, you see, here's the problem with the Knicks. To me, it's almost an R.J. Barrett problem.

R.J. Barrett is a good player. And he's going to be a good player for a long time. But I don't think he'll ever be a great player. And the problem is when you're 6'6 in the NBA in today's NBA, and he's a good athlete, but he's not explosive. athletically, and he's not a good outside shooter, not a good shooter from three. So I think when you're six-six in the NBA to be great or at least very good, you have to be one of those things. And so he represents the franchise the right way. He's a hard worker. He's a good player. I'm just not sure he's ever going to be more than that. So if he's positioned to be your third star, I'm not sure that's good

enough. So if you, yes, should they try to be in on Zion Williamson? Absolutely. I think Zion always wanted to play for the Knicks, and you could bring him in here and say, just get in shape, and you can take New York away from the two errands, Judge and Rogers. This city will be yours because I was there in the 90s when the Knicks were good, knocking on the door and never won a title. They were bigger than the Yankees who were winning titles. You were both on the MSG network. The Knicks were the number one property on that network. So it can happen.

Zion Williamson, you come to New York, which is where you wanted to be coming out of Duke, get in shape, play 70 out of 82 games. games and you can take this city away from the two hours. I think that's certainly possible. Yeah, I think Carl Anthony Towns is more offensively skilled than Julius Randall. He doesn't give you the consistent effort. Julius is one of those players that plays hard every night, and that is so important in the regular season. But when everybody plays hard in the playoffs, his dominance is reduced and he becomes a really solid player. He really is an effort guy. He just outworks people and ends up with 23 points in the regular season. And so I think he's a, and he's, he's pretty expensive.

I like Julius Randall. I feel like the league sort of left him. Like he gives you a bucket, not a three. And I feel like the Lakers kind of bailed on him. And I had a conversation with a Laker executive once. I'm like, you know, nobody plays harder. Nobody shows up every night. He just needs to be your three, not your two or your one.

So I'm with you. I think if they get a one, Jalen Brunson's a two. I think they'll move R.J. Barrett. I'm with you. There's not really a there there. Like there's a lot of guys. in my years of being a sportscaster, there are guys in the NBA. I mean, Andrew Wiggins was this in Minnesota.

You got 24 a night. You didn't remember a bucket. You just didn't. I mean, it's just like, how did he score? There was a player, Sharif Abdul Rahim. Do you remember him the forward? I do. Yeah, sure.

24 a night. I don't remember any of the points. And then there's guys like Julius Randall or Brunson. You remember all of them. They're very impactful. So I think Carl Anthony Towns works. And they also, the Knicks also have some big athletic guys like Obie Toppin. They're not great players, but they certainly can be excellent rotational players in a place like Minnesota.

They've got some size and athleticism and youth. Yeah, Mitchell Robinson is a good rim protector, although he might have to go in a deal if you're getting cat. But I also think if you look at Minnesota, what's Anthony Edwards is still 21 years old. The guy's averaging 25 points a game at age 21. You got Gobert there. I think Julius Randall is a better fit with Gobert than Carlin. any towns is. So you try to look at it, what's realistic? And it's not realistic to get certain players in the NBA to New York. But I think now that they've established some credibility there,

and Dolan isn't talked about as much as he was years ago. I think Kat is a big name that is realistic for a lot of reasons that we've talked about here now. Whether or not he's a guy who can get you to the NBA finals with Brunson, I don't know. You might have to upgrade Barrett. alongside those two to get to that point. But I think it's a start. Ian O'Connor, columnist New York Post, four-time New York Times bestselling author. You see the books behind him on our YouTube page, Coach K, Belichick and the Captain. It is always great to see you, wonderful family.

And I love these two to three time a year visits for us. You give me kind of the full. I feel like I'm getting a sports page. I'm getting like two, three days of days of day. WFAN with more, more redeemable opinions and less outrage. But I do miss it, man. My wife and I go to the New England area every year. And in the afternoons, I'll turn on New York radio.

And it's just, it's just fantastic. It's all cats and dogs living together and outraged and fire. Buck, Buck, Showalter was a genius nine months ago. It's ridiculous. It really is. So the Aaron Rogers thing is going to be just fascinating to watch. And I really hope, just given what Jets fans have been through, that this one actually works.

So that's why I'm being optimistic about 10 and 7 making the playoffs, and then coming back in year two and maybe having a shot to get to the big game. But we'll see. It should be fine. Hey, Farve was 7 and 3 before he got hurt. It was working. I remember it. You remember it.

It was working. Yeah, it was. People were talking about a Jets Giant Super Bowl that year. They were actually what? I think there were seven and four. No, they were eight and three. I'm sorry. They're eight and three. And the Giants, I think they were 11 and O. And Farves' arm fell off or else the Jets would have been in the playoffs with them. People forget that. They look at Favre's as a disaster. It wasn't a disaster. It got messy at the end. But when he was healthy, he was still a good football player to prove that in Minnesota.

And the Jets would have made the playoffs. So I'm hoping that's the case with Aaron Rogers. Well, both Fav and Rogers and Eli had a strong enough arm for those late fall early winter home games, which is a real thing in New York. That's not the easiest stadium to throw in. Rogers has a hose. Farve did. And Eli always had a really strong arm. So that's a big part of those quarterbacks and the dimensions there. Good seeing you, Ian.

Hey, thanks for everything, Colin. Appreciate it. You bet. The volume. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite, unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.

Guaranteed Human. Thank you.