The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - Inside Buffalo Bills Hidden Drama: Josh Allen, Sean McDermott, Chiefs Rivalry

Episode Date: January 22, 2026

Colin Cowherd is joined by Tyler Dunne from GoLongTD.com to discuss the drama and untold stories of the Buffalo Bills. They talk about why Brandon Beane & Terry Pegula threw Keon Coleman & Sean McDermott under the bus at the press conference. Why Sean McDermott was fired and why Brian Daboll might be the next Head Coach of the Buffalo Bills. Tyler shares why the infamous 13 second game vs Patrick Mahomes & Kansas City Chiefs broke the Bills and they still haven't recovered from that moment. How much input will Josh Allen have on the next coach. They also talk about why the Green Bay Packers extended Matt LaFleur & Brian Gutekunst. Lastly they hit why the Patriots rebuild under Mike Vrabel happened overnight and why Drake Maye is the next Tom Brady. Timeline: 3:00 - Bills drama 29:30 - Packers 38:30 - Patriots (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates!  #VolumeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Hey, I'm Deanna Maria Riva. And on my new podcast, How Hard Can It Be? I call on my Gen X squad from Ohio to Hollywood as we navigate Midlife's most fantastic BS. Unfiltered conversations from night sweats to fupas to scheduling sex. Wait, what sex? Is it just me or does every woman my age want to look at Pinterest instead of having sex sometimes? They say we can't polish a turn, but we're sure going to try. So let's get blunt with laughs, tears, or tears of laughter. Listen to How Hard Can It Be with Gianna Maria Riva on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam?

It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was harmed. You just understood. That's how personal it got.

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Wake up, ready to show up for work the next day. Go to zbiotics.com slash Colin. 15% off your first order if you use Colin at checkout. Backed by 100% money-back guarantee, no risk. Subscriptions are also available for maximum consistency. go to zbiotics.com slash column. Use my name at checkout, 15% off. Well, I brought him on the herd.

He won our first ever Big J journalism award. I think we retired it after he won it. We've never handed out a second. He is the founder of Go Long, one of the first guys in sports to really jump over to Substack and be his own man. I love that about him. And one of the teams that he has really been,

really, it grounds zero, a foundational reporter and has pushed back on this franchise, many times they have had a wild last four weeks. You don't think of Buffalo and controversy. You think of New York and controversy in Philadelphia and Boston, but Buffalo's just, you know, it's quiet, it's upstate. So let's start with the press conference today, where Terry, the owner, a Bagula, basically calls out Keon Coleman. I just kept thinking, man, for a billionaire, that's not a ton of self-awareness. You were at the press conference.

Basically, he was defending Billy Bean, who was sitting next to him, who's taking a ton of criticism for his draft record, which is not stellar. Okay, let's start with a press conference. Was it awkward when Terry went off script to defend Billy Bean? You know, it was uncomfortable. It was awkward. It was something that you never see in sports, right? Ever.

general managers, head coaches, they never bring you inside publicly like that and say, no, this person wanted that player, that person wanted that player. I'll be honest, Colin, I love the honesty. I love the transparency. I'm not in PR. It probably isn't the best PR move because that's pretty avoidable. If you're the Buffalo Bills, like you just don't need to bring that up. If you want that information out there, there's people like me.

You can tell off the record, all these people in all sports know, that. But to me, what I kept thinking of is, all right, the one person who has control over this is Keon Coleman. The only reason he's being framed as a bust is because he has been a bus two years in. Yeah. I mean, he's showing up late to meetings twice. He's getting into Shaw McDermott's dog house. I will say this. I was told it wasn't necessarily Sean McDermott who drafted Keon Coleman. It was coaches on the staff. But yeah, Brandon Bean, it puts him in a tough spot where he's sitting there like, all right, well, we're going into year three with this guy. We don't want to give up on this guy.

And he later, you know, made a point to say, look, I drafted him. We all drafted him. At that point, it's kind of out there. But to me, you know what this press conference was, Colin? Truth bombs left and right. And the truth hurts. For Keon Coleman, I'm sorry, if feelings are hurt, more production. Sean McDermott, they praised him for his nine years of service.

At the end of the day, it's been a decade with argument. the best player in the league and what do you have to show for. To me, that was the biggest takeaway from this press conference. At one point, Terry Bagula is looking at all of us and basically looking at the entire city of Buffalo, say it is seven years in a row of making the playoffs? Is that success? Is that success? And no Super Bowl appearance.

He's basically asking everybody, if you want to get to the playoffs and lose, we've done that. Do we want to win a Super Bowl? Do we want something more? Then you got to move on. Look, I mean, one stat I'll give you, too, is I've been repeating it nonstop and go along, but teams move on from head coaches at this point for a reason. You know, he's entering year 10.

There's only been three head coaches, really two, who have won their first Super Bowl in year nine or beyond with that team. Bill Cowher, Tom Landry, Hank Strand. And Hank Stram won an NFL title before that. So, you know, the list of the Marty Schotton, and Marvin Lewis's and Bart Starrs and Wayne Fotz and Marv Levy's. It's much, much longer. It was overdue, if you ask me. Yeah, there was a feeling in Buffalo, and I've said this with Brandon Bean.

I did some sourcing on it. I called a couple of GMs I respect. I said, what do you know about him? Because I don't know him, nor do I have any, even a text relationship. And they said, he's really good with a cap. he's not necessarily known as an elite John Snyder level, you know, like what you would say personnel guy. Doesn't mean he can't do it. For the record, it's really hard. Drafting is really hard. The best whiff. I mean, you know, the Rams of Wift on second rounders. The Niners have. It's

hard. So there is no, there's no exact science to guessing how a 22-year-old will work. I mean, Keon Coleman, Florida to Buffalo, just the weather alone, you know, It's like, wow, that's a different. He probably never been to Buffalo before, right? Like a lot of these kids. But what is the sense? Is it fair to say, since Josh Allen, 55 draft picks, two pro bowlers, is it fair, is that a fair criticism that he has struggled in the draft?

Or do you see personnel as he's been reasonably solid like most GMs, hits and misses? Yeah. You know what? That's a great question because I think everybody's asking that. Same exact question right now because who's at fault here, right? Is it the head coach or the GM for why this team, forget winning a Super Bowl hasn't gotten to his Super Bowl, right? No head coach has won more playoff games without a Super Bowl appearance than Sean McDermott. A, no quarterback has one more playoff games without a Super Bowl appearance than Josh Allen.

Hey, so like who's at fault here? People that I talk to around the league, they believe this has been a championship roster. year and year out, that they should have one in 20, 21, 13 seconds. And we can get into that because I really do believe that was the moment that probably broke the psychology of the Buffalo Bills under Sean McDermott. Yeah. And, I mean, you've got seasons other than that you can point to and say that they had enough talent to win at all.

And I think, look, Brandon B. was the driving force behind the move up the draft board for Josh Allen. So Terry Pugula remembers that. And then if you fast forward to this year, you've got the rain and MVP. You've got the NFL's leading Russia and James Cook. You've got a top five offensive line. And the defense, right, you've got a defensive-minded head coach and Sean McDermott. And you look at these playoff losses in the last six playoff losses. And we could really kind of point to that as when the bills have been legitimate Super Bowl contenders, right? Because they get the Jacksonville

in 2017. They end the drought. 2019. Josh Allen's in a year two. They lost in the wild card to the Texans and overtime, blew it 16 and nothing, lead that game. But let's look at those six with a defensive-minded head coach, Colin. 52 non-neal down drives in those six games against, that's what you've got three Mahomes, one borough, one bo-nicks, okay? 52 non-neal down drives. They've allowed 25 touchdowns, 13 field goals, forced only 12 punts. There's one missed field goal in there.

They've created three turnovers allowing 199 points. That's 3.83 points per drive. I believe that's more than the 2007 Patriots average per drive with a defensive-minded head coach. So Brandon Bean's thinking, okay, it was defense again in the AFC championship game last year, right? Josh Allen did enough. The Bill's offense did enough at Arrowhead. And a Chief's offense that was average to above average, the last season and a half hung 32 on you. So he goes out and signs Bosa, Larry O'Gajobie, Michael Hoyt, and draft.

five defensive players in a row. Like here's more options for you, Sean McDermott. Let's get a stop, right? Let's get one stop. You get to Denver. Yes, Josh Allen had four turnovers. The crazy play at the end of the half,

and he said from the blind side. But yes, you had four turnovers. Even then, they almost became the second road playoff team ever to overcome a minus three turnover differential to win. I think it was one. They were one in 85 going into this game because of Allen, because of the offense.

And then two minutes left, third and 11. It looks like Sean's going to send the dogs. Seven at the line of scrimmage. Here's the moment he's finally going to be aggressive. And three of them back off. Bowenicks hits Cortland Sutton for a first down. Four plays later. Tradavius White gets hurt.

He's out. Sean Payton smells blood. Dean Jackson, ice cold off the sideline. You leave him one on one on the outside. What do you think Sean Payton's going to do? He did the same thing earlier in the game when Cam Lewis, the safety got hurt. And Darneau Savage, your fifth or six safeties on the field, a bust from Green Bay shouldn't be in that spot, but Peyton saw it and he took advantage.

So Shaw McDermott failed to learn his lesson in the game. Look, if you got a defensive-minded head coach, these are the little things you got to do. Yeah. And I think that Terry Pagula is looking at these moments and he's looking at the eyes of his players in the locker room. He talked about this today. And he sees how despondent, how, you know, teary eye Josh Allen is, Dionne Dawkins, everybody.

And he's saying, man, we can't keep doing this year to year. Like this team has plateaued. We've got to do something. And I get the debate, but he decided that it was Sean McDermott's fault, not Brandon Bean. Yeah, I agree with that. I think, you know, here's where I'll defend Brandon Bean.

I think their offensive personnel is pretty good. They have an excellent slot receiver. Maybe not Ladd McConkey, but darn good. Starback, star left tackle, great running back, O-line, more than solid. Multiple tight ends. Dawson Knox. obviously Dalton Kincaid.

So in Keon Coleman, I didn't have a problem with a draft pick because I saw him in college and I thought he was rangy and tall. Receivers, number one, last 20 years, number one position first round bust is wide receiver. He's not the first. Belichick couldn't draft one in the first round. Chad Jackson, Nikiel Harry, Nikiel Henry from Arizona State, couldn't draft one to save his life. So, by the way, Andy Reid, Brett Veach, great, great guys.

Guy Moore, Miss. Rishi Rice, always in trouble. Xavier Worthy, bottom first, meh. So, like, I do think Brandon Bean deserves credit for, they've done a pretty damn good job on offense, a pretty good group. And I think an offensive coach, like Brian Daibol, would squeeze even more juice out of that group. So let's pivot to that, is Daibald the frontrunner.

He'll definitely be in the conversation. And I love this. I love talking Brian Daibble, because it is fascinating. he was like a father figure for Josh Allen here. They were unbelievably close. When I did that three parts series, yeah, we probably talked about it on the herd then. I mean, we're the 9-11 speech that McDermic gave that got a lot of headlines. But really, I thought one of the more fascinating nuggets was in part three of that series

where I had heard from veterans on that team and coaches who repeated just how close Josh Allen was to Brian table. on the field. You know, Josh Allen, he's a farm boy from Fireball, California, right? And no star recruit, had to earn everything. He's okay with a coach yelling in his earhole like Brian Davel would. I can picture him on the sideline after an interception in year two against the Patriots. Daible's losing his mind.

Alan took the hard coaching, did something with it. Daible had such an effect on him as a young player. But he got off the field. I mean, they were hanging out all the time. It was a special relationship. there was one player and I asked, this is 2023. Like at that point, Davel's with the New York Giants, obviously,

like did the bills keep the right coach? And he paused for quite literally 13 seconds, ironically enough. And she goes, does that answer your question? I mean, there's people who think that the bills could have multiple Super Bowls right now

if Davel and Allen stayed together. And look, Josh Allen is going to be in these interviews with the head coaches. And I, not, not dable. I actually caught up with a coach who might be in the running for this job recently. And he,

you know, we'll see if he's, he's of interest too. There's going to be a lot of people that want this job. When it comes to dable, though, all signs would point to him being the frontrunner for all those reasons. But I also think of this,

Colin, Brian, or Brandon Bean is tight with Joe Shane. Joe Shane was here in Buffalo. And Joe Shane knows firsthand what went down with the giants, right? He probably knows all the good that comes with Dable. and maybe some of the disorganization behind the scenes that came at table. You can learn from that stuff.

Like, I love it when teams give a head coach a second chance. Like, you should be able to learn from what went wrong. So he absolutely could. That's what being has to kind of parse through and figure out, like what went wrong and would he do better the second time around? Because being an NFL head coach, it's more than just coaching quarterbacks and having a relationship with Josh Allen, which is unbelievably important. There's game management stuff which Dable struggled with with the Giants, obviously.

Interpersonal relationships behind the scenes, right? You famously clashed with Wink Martindale. So I think that's the kind of stuff that probably they're going to ask Brian Dable in this interview when they have them in. You know, I have defended Brian Dable because coaching in New York is hard. Coaching in New York having to take Dave Gettelman's guy, Daniel Jones, and win is hard. the New York media is multifaceted, multi-personality, very uber competitive. And I said the day on the herd, I said, you know, Buffalo's different. I mean, you have real pros in the media.

I'm not disparaging anybody. There are a lot of good radio TV people up there. Buffalo's always played bigger than it is as a market. Always reminds me, I don't know why I think of this, Salt Lake City media, Buffalo media, feel much bigger than they are. A lot of pros. People just want to live in Salt Lake City and ski, and people love living in Buffalo because it's a wonderful place.

place to live. But I guess when I look at Brian Dable, who's succeeded in New York, even Coughlin at the end struggled. Whereas I really like the ownership of Buffalo. I think Brandon Bean realizes a lot of people have the microscope on him now. And so the Buffalo media, and I really respected this, has been hard on Bean. And tomorrow's columns on this press conference will be intense. What is the relationship? Pagula Bean fans media today. Because usually when you get a market the size of Buffalo or Baltimore, the media is not antagonistic. But it does feel like Baltimore, Buffalo's media feels almost a responsibility. They know they're in the national spotlight.

And they've sharpened the saw. It feels like, I mean, Bean's radio appearance, I think on WGR, I read the columns. I mean, is it as tense as it sounds? It was tense today, Colin. There's no way around it. They asked, I was there. I wasn't able to get a question in. It was hard to get a question in because it was an opportunity to ask about the firing of head coach,

which hasn't happened here in Western New York in nearly a decade. They've been winning division titles. Shaw McDermott cleaned up the Rex Ryan mess, and it was a mess. It was worse than you can imagine. And he deserves all the credit for that. I mean, I think he he's a free agent head coach right now. If you wanted to clean up the Cleveland Browns or a team like that, he could do it. Like that's what Shaw McDermott does really well.

But yeah, to answer your question, people are ready to ask Brandon Bede some hard questions. I think it's interesting. You know, Sean McDermott really did ingratiate himself to the community this past year in a way that he hasn't. Most of his tenure, he has been a little standoffish, not doing much media beyond press conferences, kind of, you know, a little colder, a little more aloof and distilled. didn't want to play that game, really. And then recently, even after I did that series, I was welcomed back in the building.

I sat down with Sean at the Combine. We talked about it, got a credential. Next thing, I know into the playoffs in 2024, I'm in his office. We're talking for an hour about his evolution as a coach. I mean, he definitely made a concerted effort to get his personality out there. Dan Pompey at the Athletic in an excellent profile

on Sean McDermott recently. I think through all of that, you know, there's a story in the Buffalo News where ahead of the last game at Highmark Stadium, he's like looking around the field and taking it all in and the community kind of felt an attachment to Sean McDermott. Really, I mean, you can see it, you can feel it. The same fans who are pissed at this team loses every January,

they felt a bond to him. And I think of the majority of fans, at least this season, kind of pinned a lot of the problems on the GM and the wide receiver position. And it has kind of rooted in that WGR interview that Brandon Bean did. And so in a roundabout way, yeah, like fans, they, they didn't think a lot of fans. I don't know what the percentage would be. Didn't think that Sean McDermott should have been fired. So when this goes down, I think a lot of folks were surprised and wanted answers.

And the media sought those answers. But here's where I think, though, this isn't to blame local media, blame fans. And just the theme that I keep coming back to, Colin, is let's not lose the plot. here, everyone, right? I gave you that stat earlier on this move on at this point. And that game, that 13 seconds game at Arrowhead, I've been

told repeatedly, again on Monday, when I reached out to people around the team, around the relationship of McDermott and Bean, that moment had a lot of damage. I think Richard Sherman would tell you the exact same thing about the Legion of Booms

Seahawks when Pete Carroll decided to throw the ball at the one yard line. That moment kind of broke those Seahawks. 283 broke the Atlanta Falcons. 13 seconds broke the psychology of the bills. And here's why, reported all of it. And it's funny. I mean, to my knowledge, Sean McDermott has been peppered with these 13 second questions. But I've reached out to coaches. I've reached out to players. He overruled a special teams coordinator. Heath Farewell. who wanted his squib kick. McDermott said touchback. That allows for those two plays to happen over the full 13 seconds.

And what happens before those plays, he calls a timeout. They call it Kodak, a chance to kind of see what the chiefs are doing and line up accordingly. The DBs are in another zip code. It's easy, easy work from Mahomes. In that moment, McDermott, I was told, overruled, Leslie Fraser's defensive coordinator.

He's doing the defensive play calling. They gave up the field goal. They get into overtime. They get rolled over. They get inside the locker room. And I had a coach tell me that even in that moment, Sean McDermott said something like, why,

the offense left too much time on the field. Like, what? 13 seconds? And then the next day is kind of looking at his assistant coaches and saying, you guys need to figure out what went wrong here. You need to figure it out. And that was it into the off season. So not only does this like really traumatic by football standards moment happen,

there's really no ownership. There's really no accountability in that moment. And it really did linger into 22, 23, 24 to the point where people in all departments are saying like that that has kind of been a dark cloud over this team to where. And look, the timing's kind of always been awkward if Terry Pagul and the bills wanted to fire McDermott because in 2022, Shaw McDermott probably has his best coaching job ever. A player nearly dies on a football field, DeMar Hamler, comes back to life. And you've got to somehow get your team ready to play a football.

football game the following week. Unbelievable job by McDermott. Yes, they get smashed by the Bengals in the playoffs, but it's not like Pagula's going to fire him after all that. 2023, I write that three-part series when they're six and six. They win six games in a row. They're a missed field. Go away from getting to the AMC championship game.

You can't really fire him after that. And then 2024, you're in the AFC championship game. That fourth and five prayer from Allen, you know, he escapes all that rush, gets into Daltan Gaked, just misses it. They don't fire him. after that when in retrospect, maybe you should have, Brable, Ben Johnson, Liam Cohen are available.

But in a roundabout way, I'm just saying, look, I think that that has kind of hovered over the team in a way that isn't really understood by the fans, the majority of the fans who, I feel this connection with Shaw McDermott. Internally, I'm telling you, it's real. And if the bills could do it all over again, I think they would think long and hard about doing the Doug Collins, the Phil Jackson thing at that point, right?

where it would have been hard to. The bills were still on the rise, but if you could rewrite history, I mean, that would have been a moment to move on to a new coach. Write that, upgrade while you're on the rise after 13 seconds. Today's show is brought to you by our friends

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Gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler. Arizona, Colorado. Illinois, New Jersey, Ohio, Tennessee, Virginia. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, name? Huge news.

We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts around there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys?

I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. And we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.

But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the

playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the bar like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it. out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Crimless, we're joined by our first ever guest. Sorry, our first ever human guest. I don't think I could be in the same room with Shamrock the parrot. I'd be too nervous. That's right. The very funny Will Farrell joins Rory Scoble and me, Josh Dean, for an episode dedicated to

the many crimes committed by people also named Will Farrell. We called to his fellow officer for the nippers. What are the nippers? Very good question. No, I was thinking would that be a good name for like a salad dressing? Simple assault. And it's a play on word, salt?

Maybe not. I say we invest and we see. There's only one way to know. This did not amuse the cops. By the way, normally the cops are amused. But this did not abuse the cops. Will even comes clean about some of his own crimes. I didn't get caught.

You know why? If you don't want to be suspected of anything, you whistle as you walk. Listen to Crimesis on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. It's your responsibility to not just seek help, but to identify that you need help. This is Mental Health Awareness Month. Tune in to the podcast, Just Healed with Dr. Jay, and take real steps toward healing, growth, and becoming your best. self. When you hear the word healing, what does that mean for you? What came right back to mine are the three P's that I live by. I'll go through the process of healing so that patience, that

perseverance, and that prayer equals healing to me. From understanding your mental health to doing the work, we break down practical tools, real conversations, and the mindset shifts you need to move forward and thrive. You matter too. Your mental health is your responsibility, not your wife, not your partner, not your children, not the church, not the pastor, not the council. It's your responsibility. It's time to stop putting your healing on hold and start doing something about it. Listen to Just Here with Dr. Jay on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. We've covered a lot of ground with Buffalo.

I can't bring you on and not talk Packers. Because that's what we were first introduced to. You pick really fascinating franchises. So I defended Matt LaFleur and Brian Gudenkoontz, but mostly Matt LaFleur because he's won 66% of his games. I also think the NFC over the last two to three years has really improved. It's superior to the AFC. And I also think Aaron Rogers at the end was difficult. He had one or two really. Aaron was really happy to see him. McCarthy and Aaron had regressed as a relationship, clearly eroded. He put his arms around. the young, good-looking guy, just like Aaron generationally, they were in line, kind of good-looking

young, you know, successful guys. But at the end, I think we know that Aaron aged pretty quickly. Like, unlike Brady, he was not obsessed in the off-season. You know, he took his off-season to do his thing, and Aaron's age more quickly. So he didn't get really great Aaron for quite the runway, we thought. Then Jordan Love, I thought he did a tremendous job with him, and Malik Willis in multiple opportunities when, I mean, they got him into camp late, and a month later he's playing, and they're winning. So I just think he's a winning coach. I think it's the NFC's gotten better. His division, you know, Detroit arguably best roster, Kevin O'Connell, one of the sharpest guys in the league, and now the Bears have Ben and Caleb. It's a really tough division with a lot of

smart guys in it. So, but do you think when the stories came out, and I tend to, when I say, a story proclaiming a big possible change. Okay, who wrote it? Do you believe they sat down in that organization 48 hours and thought about moving off Matt LaFleur? It had to have been a thought if you're at policy. You know, this is your opportunity to put your imprint on this team. I mean, he's the CEO.

He's the president. We know the fans own the team, but he's the one in charge. It's kind of a perfect situation when you over. when you take over a team where you've got a head coach in a GM entering the final year of their deal. So you decide right then either you give them the extensions or you move off them. I mean, they didn't want to be lame ducks. Nobody wants that situation. So I think it was probably a thought.

How could it not be after that choke job at Soldier Field? And it wasn't it wasn't the first to be up. But it could have been 24 to 3 at half with the field goal. Hell, Jordan Love almost hit Christian Watson on a touchdown. It could have been 28 to 3. a half. That's kind of a forgotten play. But yes, it's 21 to 3 to have those four three and outs, to have no answers as an offensive coach and you could just, you could just feel it. You know, especially it was interesting, Colin, spending a week around the New England Patriots

out of that game and hearing from Mike Vrable and these players and how they strain through the play, how they work through the play, the longevity of they never quit. They're relentless. and that is just created by Mike Grable as far back as the spring. It is very culture driven when he's telling guys, pick up your dirty washcloths in the shower. He instructed the equipment staff. If you see dirty wash cloths on the shower floor, just ring them out and don't wash them.

Like little things like that all the way to the defense. He installs exos and owes-wise has a purpose. And then to hear Matt LaFleur talk about how they need to strain through the play, the play more after the latest collapse. I don't know, man. Like, that speaks to the DNA of a team. He's been there a while. There's been a lot of late game collapses all the way back to Aaron Rogers.

So let me throw something at you. When he was hired, I was told, I've said this on the air. When McVeigh, Shanahan, and Matt LaFleur were together, McVeigh was the culture guy. Shanahan was the scheme guy. Lefleur was the nice guy. When he was in Tennessee and went to Green Bay, I was told by somebody that was very close to the situation, that he didn't think he was necessarily a great culture guy. He thought he was a good guy, a smart guy, knew his shit. But again,

not necessarily, didn't know if he could build his tough, relentless culture. I've said about Lincoln Riley. I know he's smart. USC leads the nation in offense regularly. I know he knows his side of the ball. I know he's smart. I've compared Lincoln, Riley, and Matt LaFleur. I know they're good and I know they're smart and they know quarterbacks and offense. I don't know if either's a great culture creator. Ben Johnson did it in a six weeks. I mean, they were a better football team in six weeks. They literally eliminated negative play. in sacks in the first two weeks. They weren't gone out of the program. So my thing is when I

watch Dan Campbell's culture, bite kneecaps, tough physical, I can see it. Vrable, clean it up, no penalties, tough, I can see it. Ben Johnson with Caleb in the offense. I can see it. I can't with the floor. I see smart. I say good with quarterbacks. I see, you know, good guy, liked by a lot of people. I don't see a great culture. Is it fair for me to say that? I agree 100%. And I'm not just blowing smoke out.

I think you just nailed it. That's exactly what I hear about Matt LaFleur. What we see with our own eyes, when we watch the Green Bay Packers, looking five of their nine losses, they led by nine plus points. Three times they lost when they didn't even punt. Like, if that's not coaching,

I don't know what is. It's, Wow. It is incredible what he did with Aaron Rogers after a really messy breakup with McCarthy. Now, you're coming in with your offense. If you got to blend it with Aaron Rogers wanting to do whatever the hell he wants to do with the line of scrimmage, somehow they made it work to the point of what, getting MVP awards, getting two divisional and conference playoff games. I know he's good with quarterbacks. I watched him with Malik. I watched him with Jordan. I watched him with Aaron. It's like Lincoln Riley. I don't doubt that part. The MVP's

I don't doubt it. This is about culture, right? And that's what I wonder about. I'm right there with you. It's totally about culture. What he did with Jordan Love? Hell, I remember doing this podcast after that brutal Raiders game.

It was awful. And where's Jordan Love going to go from here? He developed him those three years behind the scenes. And then the three years as a starter. He is, in my opinion, a top 10, maybe a top five quarterback. But you're, you shouldn't lose a game when your quarterback throws for, what, 300 plus yards, four touchdowns and no picks on the road. And look, we can nitpick plays all day long.

If Michael Parsons is on the field, he probably creates a big play that wins you that playoff game. If Romeo Dobbs recovers an onside kick, you win that game. But when it happens repeatedly, go back to the Cleveland Browns game. They blow a 10-0 lead to the freaking Browns with a few minutes left. That is culture. And I had a player tell me that he could see and feel that. Matt LaFleur freeze up in his words in big moments.

It's kind of like there's a little bit of a tenseness, a little bit of a panic in some of these moments. Look, I think you can grow, you can evolve. Maybe he can get that out of him that this is last year that the player told me that. But you watch these games and you see these finishes. It makes you wonder, right? That's the big gamble by Ed policy here is that Matt LaFleur will continue to develop as a coach and with the healthy Mike of Parsons,

he can figure this out. They've got the talent. I don't think talent's a problem. I think that's why Brian Gutikis was always safe. He's the one that put his career on the line for Jordan Love when everybody was calling him nuts. And he saw something he believed. He's the one that's drafted all these wide receivers.

Look, we want to Doc Brandon Bean. Probably could take a page out of that Gutikins playbook. Just draft receivers around your quarterback and let him develop together. He's done that. They made the big move for Parsons. It's on the floor to figure all that other stuff. And I think it is rooted in culture. Whatever you want to define it by, there's something amiss in Green Bay because, look, if the new playoff rules weren't in, they're not even making the playoffs last three years.

They're part of the 44% club is that seventh seed because they added another team. And what kind of conversation are we having right now without that? Right. Let's end on the Patriots. You've spent time there as well. Tyler Dunn is joining us. Go long. his substack.

That does tremendous work. I didn't think it was that difficult. They had a ton of cap space. I thought Drake May was really good. So I picked him as a playoff team. It was my sort of, I pick a team every year, my double-year-win total team that nobody expects. And my two surprise picks this year

where Seattle would make the playoffs and be much better than people think. A lot of that was rooted in John Snyder's drafting where I thought he hit another great draft in April. And I thought that's three stacked in a row. they got too many good players and I'm a darn old fan. And the other was New England. I said, they'll double their win total. I thought about nine to ten. I didn't think they'd be this good. I've made, the old Patriots were fascinating because they were outside of Brady. They weren't

great anywhere, but they were good everywhere and terrible nowhere. And I feel like I'm watching the same owner, same offensive coordinator. Vrable's a more current. player-friendly Belichick, and Drake May's a younger, more mobile Brady. Now, will he ever be that productive? Probably not. But my takeaway on all this is, the reason Rabel really took this is because he made a few calls and everybody said, yeah, Drake May is really, really good. But you didn't know it because it was sporadic because a young quarterback is as good

as his coach. Caleb last year, Caleb this year, right? like you're as good as your coach. Drake May had really bad coaching. Do you think when you snoop around, like, is the feeling we got Tom Brady too? Yes, it is. And I think it's a perfect storm

for a lot of those reasons you just laid out. Let's start with Vrabel. So what he inherited, yeah, I mean, it was a mess, but you can even go back a year before that. I've talked to coaches that were on that Gerard Mayo staff. And, right, it is kind of, ridiculous that Drodmeo wasn't more prepared when you know you're the heir apparent and you're going to take this thing over. And yet you don't really have your staff all lined up.

But the problem was kind of like all of Drodmeo had known was the Patriot way, the Belichick way of doing things. He takes over. This is the first time that the Patriots are going through a wholesale coaching change like that in decades. So what I was told is like down to the little things like some of these coaches that had to move their families, like the moving expenses that the patriots were giving these coaches was laughable. It was nothing because for years and years and years and years, everything just kind of ran through Belichick.

Everything was status quo and nothing was really modernized. I mean, the sauna. You've got like wood paneling and two by force falling apart. That was kind of trashed that the coaches are in for the sauna. The offensive line coach, I believe, like wanted some new equipment. And even asking ownership or asking whoever is in charge for some of this new equipment to use, whatever they're $15,000.

It just everything was a chore, everything too much time. Gerard Mayo is kind of getting pulled in all these directions. The next thing he knows he's pissing away a day, two days, three days on stuff that isn't football. So, like, Gerard Mayo, you don't know what you don't know. He didn't really know what kind of vision he wanted to have for the team. Mike Bramble came in. He knew exactly how he wanted to build this thing. Yeah, he played for the Patriots,

but he was the coach for the Titans. He knows what works, what doesn't work. He had a staff ready to go. Josh McDaniels comes in. And Josh McDaniels, they're sitting down, him and Drake May, watching Tom Brady film, right? Like, you're running the same offense.

He played a lot of the same teams. And Josh McDaniels, I'm sure you hear the same thing. He's going to be hard on you, man. Like, he is old school. When he was Las Vegas head coach, I had heard that he would just rip guys in front of the team. And it could make guys uncomfortable. But Drake May could take it.

Drake May wanted it. And he wanted to have all those answers to the test. Where I think like that first staff, and I've actually talked to T.C. McCartney about it, the quarterback's coach. You know, they helped his footwork that needed reconfigured out of North Carolina. They did some good stuff, but they didn't ask him to handle a lot of the line of scrimmage. Right. Like Josh McDaniels is going to ask you to handle a lot of.

at the line of scrimmage. He's going to ask you to read a defense. So like TC was really excited about where this thing was going. He saw Drake's talent, called him one of the smartest people in the entire building. But when we chatted early in the season, he's like, you know, that's a hard offense to learn that you might need a weapon or two. We caught up later in the season. He's like, he's there. He's one of the best quarterbacks in the game. So it really is a perfect storm when you've got the fundamentals. You can read a defense. You can spread it around and you've got Mike Grable running the show, buckle in because the Patriots are going to be good for a really long time. Yeah, for a really long time.

I still think, this sounds crazy. I still think they're in a semi-rebuild. I think their offensive line needs, needs to be fortified. I think, listen, Will Campbell's a good left tackle. It wasn't a great draft. I just think the old line's okay. I actually wish they would have used Trayvion Henderson a little bit more. My guess was always they didn't because he wasn't good in pass pro.

I couldn't figure it out because he's got a burst to have Stevenson. So I kept thinking, God, use him more. And some of the games they used him. He was electric. But they've got five or six rookies in a really average draft, actually playing a lot. I like their secondary. So, yeah, I think everybody thinks the Bills and the Ravens, Joe Burrow and Harbaugh and Sean Peyton are the ones that are going to get in the way of Andy Reed and Mahomes.

I think it's New England. I think it's Kraft, Vrable, May, Josh McDaniel. I really do. I think they're going to build a fortress. And I think they're going to, they won't duplicate the first goal around. It's just impossible. It would be a ridiculous movie script

to say you're going to have 20 years, two separate dynasties. But do you think New England this year can win it? 100%. You know what I would have loved about Mike Vrable? He came in and I think a lot of folks, saw the speech he gave the team in the spring. It hit so many of the right notes.

But also on the practice field, DeMico Ryan's kind of did the same thing in Houston. He'll call you out. Like if you're, if you're dragging ass, if you're not going through the echo of the whistle, he will pull you aside, I was told, and say, look, no hard feelings.

If this isn't for you, we'll find a home for you. But it's not here, right? And you do that enough. And you're going to have the, attrition you need to build the team you need this time of year to win it all. And look, it started with Robert Spillane and Morgan Moses and Milton Williams and Carlton Davis. They're signing all these guys who fit the ethos of everything Mike Brable wants. I've sat down with Carlton Davis. I mean, this is as throwback of a hardcore cornerback straight out of

the 70s that you can imagine. He might get three DPI's, but he's going to get in a receiver's face. And he grew up in South Florida, youth football games, there's shootouts, breaking out, you're hitting the deck, hardcore stuff. You can see why Vrable likes a dude like that. So he knows what kind of player he wants. You know, it's also interesting, Colin is Elliot Wolf is the GM, son of the Hall of Famer, or he was there before Vrable got there.

Everything I hear is that they've got a great relationship. And you always wonder about that. Like in New York, Joe Shane's there. John Harbaugh comes in. John Harbaugh wants that final say it. It sounds like Elliot Wolf and Mike Vrable are even on the same page. I think they beat Jared Stiddle. They get to the Super Bowl, love Seattle's roster, love Matthew Stafford.

The Patriots are ready to win it all right now. Yeah, Seattle's got a good, very good roster. The best roster left is Seattle, but they can be a little reckless with turnovers and penalties. I would say the cleanest team is L.A. they had no drop passes, no turnovers, no penalties in like minus eight degrees in Chicago. They played perfect football. I think the team with the greatest next five to eight-year runway is New England, and I think the Broncos are four of four, and there's a reason they're an underdog.

With Bow Nix, I'd give them a shot. Without Bow Nicks, I don't. Tyler Dunn. So good. This is just great 40 minutes. It's great. You're crushing. Anything else you want to promote Firewall. Hey, thanks so much, Colin.

I always appreciate hearing from Josh and the gang. Love coming on the pod. You're the absolute best. What you built up with the volume is fantastic. I should just plug your stuff. I listen to Middukovs podcast a lot, man. He's a great dude. So I've got a story up at go longtd.com on why Shaw McDermott was fired.

Kind of the stuff we hit on here and a lot more behind the scenes, the relationship that he had with Sean McDermott. And what he's like to deal with day to day in addition to the defensive performance, and Y Terri Begul and the Bills decided to do this all. So yeah, always just try to talk to as many people around the league as we possibly can and go beyond those press conferences.

GoLongtD.com. Great stuff. Thanks so much, Colin. The volume. Hey, guys, it's us and the Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick.

And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions

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If we didn't talk ever again, I was crying. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in to you, he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball.

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