The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - Jalen Brunson Most “Popular” Knick Ever? Caitlin Clark vs Angel Reece Rivalry, “Tush Push” Survives

Episode Date: May 22, 2025

Colin’s joined by Danny Parkins, host of “Breakfast Ball” on FS1! They start with Colin sharing commuter stories from their time in Chicago and why they love commuting via train and plane and Colin explains why a business class seat to Europe is his “happy place” (3:30). They pivot to the NBA and why the Thunder and T-Wolves series will struggle to pull ratings in a league with incredible parity, but Danny counters that long term it will be good for the league and pleads for an earlier tip-off (10:30). They highlight Anthony Edwards lack of shots taken in Game 1, contrasting his lack of assertiveness with past stars like Michael Jordan and the lack of urgency shown by modern players (15:30). They discuss why NIL money is funneling worldwide basketball talent back into American college basketball and why OKC would be best served using their stockpiled capital in the draft rather than trade it for an established player (26:15).  Colin proposes that Jalen Brunson has a chance to be the most popular Knicks player of all time but Danny argues that Clyde Frazier will retain that title and that Brunson is a “smidge” overrated (33:00).  They discuss the gender disparity embedded in the discourse about the Caitlin Clark vs Angel Reece rivalry, and why if there’s a bit of “hate” in a sports rivalry… it’s a GOOD thing (40:30). They express their surprise that the NFL didn’t ban the “tush push” since it’s both bad television and will get players hurt (57:00). Finally, they debate how long it will take for the influence of Ben Johnson’s coaching to show up on the field for Caleb Williams and whether it spells trouble if he struggles early in the season (1:06:15). (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates!  #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the ice. Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast, Point Game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was crying. You just understood.

That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis'clock, he's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council. The volume. At the end of the season, there's only one team that can call themselves NBA champs, only one player that can call themselves the number one pick in the NFL draft. Well, there's only one electric SUV worthy of the title, the ultimate, the all-electric BMW I-X. What I love about the I-X is that it delivers legendary BMW performance. I've had several, while its sleek design exudes innovative style,

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Now, the mornings are a little dicey. So I've been experimenting, Danny, for the first three weeks. I've been experimenting. I've discovered that Monday is not a bad traffic day. I'll take a driver. Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday are hell. I'll take the train. And weather screws everything up to make the drive even worse. Is that kind of the understanding in Chicago that Monday's the best drive day? Oh, man.

So here's the thing. The Kennedy is just under this, like, unbelievable construction project right now that just makes everything hellacious. It was the thing I was most excited to leave Chicago about. because I drove in, you know, I drove myself, you know, local radio, and drove in and drove out, and where my radio studio was was nowhere near Ogilvy. And if I wanted to get home in time to see my little kids before bed, I needed to get on the road as fast as possible as opposed to walking across the loop.

So you're on it, but just so you know, it can change in a moment's notice. Like, your three-week sample size of the halacious Chicago commute is not enough. because the express lanes will be randomly closed at some point. They will do some other nonsense construction project that instead of three years will take seven. So generally speaking, though, if you feel like you can do the metro, the metro is great. Because you never will be bothered, Colin. You're like the most famous person in Chicago that isn't an athlete. So these people that are commuting to the north shore of Chicago, they're probably like, is that

Colin Coward? No, it couldn't be. It's probably a banker. And then they'll just go on with their day. So I promise you, you will never be bothered. No, it's great. I, you know, I've never taken the train. I've had friends in New York that did. I mean, and people all walks alive. Kids, college, successful, Wall Street. And they're always like, yeah, I read on the train. I listened to a Sam Harris pod today with Jake Tapper. Those 33 minutes, I got through most of it. It was like, this is great. So I was like, I don't know. I always try to find the positive and stuff. And I was like, you know, I'll listen to even more podcasts. It's 35 minutes.

I always said, I wrote my first book on a plane. At that time I was going a lot from ESPN to L.A. So I was going to call the book shots fired from 33,000 feet. And then at some point, something happened in the country. I was like, no, that's not appropriate or something. But I've always found planes and trains. It's really, you're just really isolated. And I just go to work.

Yeah. So I, you know, I'm car in because there are no trains from the suburbs in New York that I live in that run as early as we have to be in for breakfast ball. So I go car in and train out. And the train out, you know, it's great because it's a good excuse to get work done. It's a good excuse to veg out. Yeah. It's a good excuse to be selfish. There's no quiet cars.

So if you need to make a phone call, you can, but I really don't like to. I like to just kind of do my thing and make it my me time to decompress. And yeah, if you can be productive, airplane productivity is the best. Because now there's Wi-Fi on planes and you can text and email and be connected to the world. But it's also a very easy lie. Oh, you know, the Wi-Fi was down. My phone wasn't working. And you're like, no, no, I'm really.

really expects you to be connected at 33,000 feet for whatever reason. So the ability to just completely decompress and unplug from the world is a joyous thing. I told my wife, we were talking about my happiest place, like when am I happiest? And obviously when I was a young dad, it would be like hearing my kids laugh or being at the beach with my kids and just seeing your kids have the time of their life at Disney. When I used to go to Disney, like there's just nothing better than being on a ride with your daughter and she's screaming and you're laughing and it's bad food. That's the most fun I've ever had in my life. But one of my happy places now, I tell my wife, like, once a year in the summer, we try to go to Europe somewhere. And I'm going to visit my son

in a couple of weeks. And he's doing some school in London. And I said, hey, I'll come, I'll come join you. We'll go to Copenhagen for a couple of days. Let's just, you know, and I made him a promise a few years ago, at least every other year. It's you and I get on a plane and go somewhere around the world. And so, and I told my wife, I said, you know, getting on a good business seat, heading to Europe, knowing you're getting free wine, a great movie, sleep and a meal. I'm like, God, that makes me happy. That's just, and I know I don't have to work for like 10 days. And I used to hate vacations. When you started, I didn't like vacations. I didn't want to be off. And now it's like, oh, I love it. Yeah, well, once you're

established and you feel like you can take it, you know, and now, Now, in a weird way, I've started over because I've transitioned into this new career, this new profile, trying to build a national profile and all of those things. But yeah, at the beginning in radio, I would never take off. Or if I took off for my job in Kansas City, I would fill in in Chicago for them on Christmas. Like, I would come home and work Black Friday, work Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, on the Chicago stations just to get to reps because I was so excited to be on, you know, in the big city and in my hometown.

And then when you get the first job in Chicago, you feel like you can't take off. But then when you get like good ratings and success and drive time, then it wasn't as big of a deal to take off. And now it's easy because they don't let you take off. We do so many shows. It's unbelievable.

We did a Thanksgiving show. We did a Christmas Eve show. We're working Memorial Day. We worked New Year's Day. So it's funny. Like the cycle of these jobs, it starts over again. but I'm with you, but the, I don't love flying, but the act of flying to somewhere is the,

is the greatest. Because it's the beginning, it's like limitless, like the flight to Vegas when I was like young, single and it was like, I have $500 in anything's possible. Yes. Like the flight to Vegas in my 20s was like the happiest of my entire life, other than my kids, obviously, those things that you're supposed to. Well, that's why I feel about Europe. I'm like, I got 10 days here.

And that can unplug really quickly when I know. I don't worry. If I take a three-day, I take a lot of three-day weekends in the summer, you never really unplug. You know, if something happens, I write it down. I want it for the show on Monday. But so I'll get to my happy place pretty quick. You know, it was two things can be true.

Number one is the NBA got $76 billion. They're good. Number two, hockey, baseball, MLS and the NBA regulations. seasons will never matter as much as they used to because there's just too much content. We're all distracted. Young people don't watch as much television. And I was looking at the game last night between the T-Wolves and OKC, and I was thinking, oh, yeah, this isn't going to work.

This is not going to pull a number. The Nix Pacers will. But I was watching Minnesota OKC, and I'm like, this is Adam Silver's want. This is the league he wants. He doesn't want stacked teams. He inherited that league from David Stern. He heard he's a very, if not idealistic. He's kind of a, he's very pro-employee.

Like he listens to his employees. David Stern could bulldoze you. This is what I'm going to do. He had two or three agents and five or six owners he was close to. Silver is more about the collaborative and the fabric of the league. But he also inherited a very successful league from Stern. Stern ended up trying to kind of save the league. So David was like Nike, Jordan, Magic Bird, big markets.

That's what we're going to do. So it's a different time. But I look at, I think this is now the NBA with a new CAB that Adam Silver wanted, but I watch two things can be true. I watch Minnesota and Oklahoma City. I don't, I think that will get a dreadful national number. Am I wrong? I don't think you're wrong, but I also don't care. Like, I'm not a television executive.

I'm not in business with, like, I'm not in business with the NBA. You know, I don't care. I think that we should be talking about it on our shows, because I think sports fans will watch it. Will they watch it at the exact same clip as the Eastern Conference Finals? No, obviously not. Market size, relevance, people know New York, all of those sort of things. That's all fine. I have a lot of thoughts on last night's game, the thunder, the discourse, but we can start with your premise about the league that Adam Silver wants.

This is a historic time for the NBA. this will be the first time ever that there are seven different champions in seven years. Not, no back to backs, but last seven years, seven different organizations will have won the NBA title. And so I looked it up. Heyday of the NBA, everyone says is, you know, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Kobe Shack Lakers, right? 1980 through the early 2000s. If you go from the 1980 NBA finals when Magic Johnson came in and. played center and replaced Karim, maybe the most famous game of his career, through just before

the first, the Dwayne Wade Shaq heat title, 26 years, 1980 to 2005, seven different teams won a championship. So the heyday of the NBA, 25, 26 years, seven champions, now seven champions in seven years. Dynasties are good for sports. They make people care. You love them. You hate them. You have opinions.

They are good for national ratings. I do think that in the long run, even if there is a 5% dip, a 10% dip in ratings, I do think long term this will be good for the NBA because there will be some belief that I think they will legitimately be able to sell of anybody can win. Listen to this. I just got this from our Goldie, our producer, just sent me this. T. Wolfs Sunder, Game 1, down 24% from last year, least watched Game 1 conference final since 2021. There you go. Okay, fine. It's like small markets, people that not everybody knows yet,

but also a blowout. Like, let's see how that goes over the course of, over the course of time. Also, this is a small, you're a media observer. Okay. I understand why the Western Conference Finals have to start later than the Eastern Conference Finals. But when it ends up being Oklahoma City in Minnesota, does it have to be 8.30 Eastern? Right. Am I crazy? Am I crazy? The Eastern Conference Finals will start at 8 p.m. Eastern. And if it was if it was Lakers Warriors, I get why they need every minute possible to try to pack the building and respect the people leaving work

on the West Coast. And I know that these things are predetermined ahead of time. Eastern Conference games are going to start at 8. Western Conference games are going to start at 8.30. But when it's two teams in the central time zone, that game ends after 11 p.m. Eastern on a school night. That can't help. That can't help what you're talking about with the rating.

So I wish that they had a little bit more flexibility. Flexibility when it comes to schedule. You know the other thing I thought about last night is that I don't know how many shots Ant took. It was like 13 or something. He didn't shoot. 13. And he's a great player. But this is the difference how great Michael Jordan was.

Jordan last night, probably in a losing cause if he played for Minnesota, would have taken and 39 shots, is that Michael never had a game that I can remember a big one. Even the flu game where you're like, Michael took 13 shots. His generation, Michael didn't care. Michael was going to go down. Michael's the most relentlessly competitive person I've ever seen.

I mean, magic, bird, everybody, LeBron, Steph, it doesn't matter. Is that Jason Tatum, there are times I'm like, is he on the floor? Last night in the second half, I'm like, is Amt playing? is that everybody's rich in the league. It's a much more, you know, collaborative. I mean, Michael Jordan had no problem saying, hey, Republicans buy shoes, too. I'm not talking politics. It'd be hard to say that today as a professional athlete. You'd get just destroyed by the collective, the media collective. But that's the difference. When people haven't seen Michael play, I always say that. Michael never had a game or a moment where you went, is Michael on the floor?

I mean, I remember a game against Utah in the finals. I remember a game against Phoenix in the finals. He took a jumper from the angle. It hit backboard and floor. It didn't hit rim. It was a terrible shot. They had games against Utah where he was like seven for 33. But there is something about everybody being rich and everybody has the same four agents and they all like each other,

that there isn't, there is a real sense there's tomorrow. Don't expend your energy. And I watched Minnesota in the second half and I'm like, oh, they're done tonight. They're done tonight. They were clearly done early. Listen, I will give Anthony Edwards the, he went back to the locker room with the ankle injury. And I don't know how much pain he was in. Yeah.

Like, maybe, right? But here's the thing about last night's game. I was appalled as some of the discourse of SGA's a foul merchants, the Thunder aren't watchable, I don't like their brand of basketball. I know he was just announced as the MVP, but he hadn't won the MVP yet. He has no finals appearances. He has no rings. If people are already sick of the Thunder and you're an actual basketball fan,

the next 10 years of your basketball viewing are going to be miserable. They're the youngest playoff team in the league. They're younger than the Pistons. Their oldest starter is 27 years old. Shea is 26. Jalen Williams and Chet are like 23 each. And Sam Presti's the best executive in the sport. Their coach was a finalist for coach of the year after winning it last year.

And they have every draft pick for the next decade. And people are your SGA is a foul merchant. They talk about him like he's James Hardin. He drives to the rim. more than any player in the league. Not this year, not these playoffs. For five straight years, Shea Gilchus Alexander has led the NBA

in drives to the basket. Minnesota took 51 threes last night. Oklahoma City took 21. And the free throw discrepancy was five. And people were like, oh, the refs are in it for small market, Oklahoma City and zero-time MVP. B SGA. No, that's how he plays.

Right. And so like, that game was a blowout and got hurt. There was no reason to watch the fourth quarter of the game. The ratings were down. Okay, fine. But, man, I don't understand how people all year can be like, they don't play defense, like the collective league.

The league doesn't play defense and all they do is shoot threes. And now you have a young, up and coming, historically great defensive team with a guy who scores from everywhere on the floor and you're like, I hate that too. Is anybody satisfied? Do we have to bring Michael Jordan back from his fishing boat to play?

Is that the only way people will not complain during an NBA game? It drives me insane. The NBA finals are almost here, and every play could be the one that changes everything. This is the NBA, playoffs, heroes rise, legacies are built, the action never lets up. And with Draft King Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA, you don't just watch the madness, you live it. I do. Back your favorite team.

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Bet must win to receive reward. Bonus bets expire, 168. after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see dkNG.com slash audio. Hey, it's us to Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? Huge news. We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember.

I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas.

And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. Help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself.

I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay. Jen Chinch and win. I mean, she went down at three to. Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lena Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now.

And I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. What's up, fam? Isaiah Thomas.

DJ Toledano and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs.

I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too.

Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. After you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the, iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let me throw a theory at you. I talked about it on my show today. I think you'll like this. So I talked about it, as you can do on our show for four minutes, I could talk about it with you for 10. So one of the things I love about sports, I think you know this, theories, cultural changes, trying to see them as they're happening in real time, right? So take out the last two. Zach Eadie made the all-rokey team. Okay.

Three years ago, it's like, can't play just a college guy. Why was everybody so wrong? A year ago, Mark Few's like, if he can't play NBA, it's an NBA problem. But Danny Hurley, it's like, you can't tell me he's not an NBA player. He's the hardest guy I've ever done a game prep for. There's no way we're going to stop it. Mark Fews said, all my years at Gonzaga, hardest player to defend. We have nobody in the program.

And then he hits. The Yukon team that had two guys make the all-rooky team, the big in Portland, and then Donovan, oh, God. Klingin? Yes, Klingin, my bet. And then the kid from San Antonio, Stephen Castle. So two things have happened in the last two years of college basketball. Zaki's dominance translated to the end.

and that Yukon team that crushed people, even in the tournament, really was full of excellent NBA players. Why do I say that? Because for the previous 20 years, guys like Doug McDermott, one player of the year, and were at best rotational players. So why is this happening? NIL has saved college basketball. So NIL is keeping guys like Zach Edy, NBA guys, in one more year, or they choose college over G-League or international, a story today that Real Madrid and Barcelona's amateur teams, and this Spain has all the great European young players, they're thinking of folding the league because American NIL money is taking all the European kids over here. So what is happening? So this European system that was so, we were so enamored with,

Oh, no, no, those kids are now going to play college. The G-leaguers are going to play college. What does it do? First two rounds this year, March Madness, highest in 32 years. The quality was much better. Houston, Florida, Yukon. Those are NBA players. So we went through about a 20-year cycle, kind of at the end of Grant Hill,

and those kind of guys, Larry Johnson and all that stuff, right? If you dominated college, you were going to be a good pro. And then when about 25, 30 years, you're like, Jimmer for debt, Doug McDermott. Tyler Hansborough, you could dominate college and be a rotational player. And I think it hurt the quality of the game. But between that Barcelona story, between the ratings and Zach Edie and the Yukon guys, what you're seeing now is college basketball is a rebirth, that when you're watching it in March

and a guy is dominating, so, long story, what does this mean in terms of OKC? They have stockpiled all these draft picks. And we always assumed OKC, Danny, was going to use those picks to get a Yonis. Don't give those picks up. The draft now is going to be like this year's draft. You're like, oh, there's like seven domestic players in the top 10. And they're all really, really good is that the idea that you give out your picks for Yonis, if you don't like OKC now with all those picks, these are going to be NBA players coming

out of college now, they can play almost immediately. Yeah, I think it's a great point. And the guy who accumulated the picks happens to have a better record in both eras of what you're talking about of nailing the picks. So, like, Sam Presti, everybody has misses, but he has fewer than most. Like, he traded for SGA, but on his rookie deal. I think SGA was just available. And he traded for him.

He sniped him. He traded, this is not a college player, not a young player, so not a perfect example. But like Alex Caruso wins them game seven. Alex Caruso was on the Lakers. They offered him three years, $21 million. The Bulls offered him three for 37 in restricted free agency. And the Lakers were like, no, we'd rather have Taylorton Tucker. So he went to Chicago.

Then the Bulls trade Alex Caruso to Sam Presti for Josh Giddy. Josh Giddy, nice player, fills up the stat sheet, fun, young, high upside guy, not saying anything bad about Josh Giddy. But Alex Caruso clearly is a championship pedigree player, elite defensive player. And Sam Presti has approximately 327 extra draft picks. And the Bulls couldn't get one of them. in that trade for Alex Caruso. I read that trade and I was like, oh, that's funny. They got Josh Giddy, but like, what's the draft pick?

And it never came. So Sam Presti is just great at this. He's great at it. And I agree with you. They will keep a lot of those assets. You can only have 12 guys on a team and like they traded Josh Giddy. Yeah. Because there wasn't a spot for him.

Right. Like they had too many good young backcourt players that were cheap. that's not a problem most teams have. So I don't think he'll use every draft pick, you know, but he can, he can, he can go out and get any player he wants whenever he decides to cash his chips in. I don't think it'll be for Janus, but I think it'll be for cheap labor because they want guys on their rookie deal who they can sign to second contracts because free agents aren't historically going to choose Oklahoma City. and he can just say, oh, what's the one thing we're not elite at? Three-point shooting? Who's the best three-and-d guy in the NBA on a rookie contract?

I want him. And he can go get him. Like that's what I don't think people completely understand about what Oklahoma. Like if Oklahoma City said we want Janus, they would win. If Oklahoma City said we want Durant, they would win. If fill in the blank superstar becomes disgruntled and they, if the Mavericks were like, Like, we're going to hold a bidding more for Luca Donchich. And Sam Presti's like, I want him.

They would win. They have more assets than everybody in the league, and it isn't particularly close. So I don't know how he'll use the poker chips, but I know that he's more likely than not going to be right. He will prioritize young, cheap labor. And to your point, he's not going to trade as many of the draft picks as people think because he's excellent at drafting. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I was thinking about this the other day as the, when people listen to this game, one of the Knicks Pacers will be over. And I thought, I think Jalen Brunson has a chance to be the most popular Nick ever.

So I'll explain. Oh, interesting. That's a thought. Any kid under 35 didn't see Walt Frazier play or Earl Monroe play. Eliminate those players. The young demographic, which loves the NBA, didn't watch him play. Patrick Ewing is a center. They don't sell shoes.

They don't become coaches. They're just looked at as genetically unique human beings. The greatest of all of them, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, was stoic, never a broadcaster, never really a coach, didn't get opportunities. They don't become the most popular player. Shack is a complete outlier because he's a big personality. But Barclay is still the star of that show.

And then you say, well, Bernard King, nice guy, injuries cut short. a great career. Carmelo Anthony, never really delivered in the postseason. Brunson is relatable. He's the size of the average fan. Villanova, so you found him in college. He was an East Coast star at Villanova. A lot of Villanova people in New York and Big East fans in New York, right? Oh, yeah. He's totally relatable. Like, he's a great clutch shot maker, which, say what you want. that is, you know, fourth quarter drives make quarterbacks and shot makers make Jordan. And the other thing is, the NBA now is moving into a time.

You can't stack a roster. And so it's not a coincidence. The four best players on the four best teams are all guards. Because if you don't have a stacked roster and you have a collection of B2B plus players, the point guard will control tempo and touches for. everybody and pace. The league is going to become a pace, tempo, point guard league. It's not going to be buying the best wings and centers. You can't anymore. You're just not going to have that anymore. Boston's going to unravel here in the next year, or at least move off many of their players,

is that when you look at Ewing is a center, nobody saw Walt play if you're under 37 years old, Bernard King injuries. Carmelo Anthony never won. Brunson is going. going to be the most popular Nick within three years. Okay. I mean, I'm not a New York Knicks historian. It strikes me as unlikely that he's going to be more popular. Because if you're just saying, like, no one under 37 remembers Clyde Frazier, it's like, okay, but there are a lot of people over 37. And he won two titles. He's on the All-NBA team at 50. He's on the all-NBA team at 75 in terms of, you know, he's one of the greats in

the history of the league, and he's on their broadcasts. Like Clyde Frazier, how he dresses, how he presents himself. Like, Knicks fans who are young know who Clyde Frazier. Okay, so I want to stop you there. Jerry West was the logo built Laker Championships, and Magic was more popular. That's, okay. But do you think that the Knicks are going to win the title? I think the Knicks under Brunson are going to be a regular conference finals team with chances to get to the finals.

New York sports outside of the Yankees historically have been so uneven and so inconsistent. I mean, two of the worst franchises in pro sports historically are the Mets and the Jets. And so you don't. I mean. Well, no, and listen, the Knicks unite the city, like New York basketball, right? Like, it's, they take a lot of pride of the best point guards come from New York. and Rucker Park and all of the college and AAU teams and all of the New York basketball royalty stuff, which I love and eat up.

I'm like, there's a lot about it in my book. Like, I'm all for all of the history of New York basketball. I don't think you can be the most popular, Nick, if you didn't win a title. And I don't think they're going to win a title. I think Oklahoma City would wax them. And this is a, I guess, a hot take. Jalen Brunson has become a smidge overrated, a smidge overrated, because he is crazy likeable. Everything you said is true.

He won the clutch player of the year. Yes. But when I'm watching the games and I'm staying up late and I'm watching all of the games, you know how sustainable this is. He doesn't pass. Either than you or Carmelo. Okay, that is true. So maybe he fits right in.

But, like, it, listen, he hits every clutch shot. He's totally unafraid. I get why he's a fan favorite. I get why he's loved. He deserved clutch player of the year. He's a beloved Nick. No doubt about all of it. It's totally earned.

The guy is not afraid of any moment. He's tough as hell. All of that is true. But you got Carl Anthony Towns and McHell Bridges, and I'm watching the ends of some of these games. And he's like, well, Jalen Brunson, he just took the last 10 shots of the game, except for one that Josh Hart got on an offensive rebound on a miss by Jalen Brunson.

It just doesn't strike me as a formula to win a championship. I can't think of one where it's like one guy just shoots every single time. No one is just here at the end of the game, and they're going to win a title. It's exciting. They remind me a lot of one of my favorite teams ever. the 2010-2012 Derek Rose-era Bulls. Like, Tibbs is the coach. Now, Derek Rose is even more local than Jalen Brunson,

Chicago born and raised, like, state championships in high school, the whole thing. But like, right, the Bulls drafted Derek Rose, the Knicks trade for Brunson. So it's not complete apples to apples, but it's close enough. Best player is a ball dominant guard. team-oriented. Those Bulls teams were better defensively than this Knicks team, but I know the Knicks fans say

with Mitchell Robertson Healthy, they're actually an elite defensive team even though they never have been. But it's same coach, really hard-nosed team, beloved point guard, who you ride or die with him. And Derek Rose was unbelievable.

Youngest MVP in the history of the league, they were the one seed. And then the only problem was he had to play LeBron James. And so when he played LeBron, it was like, They won game one, and then they lose in five. And I think that's what's going to happen to the Knicks,

maybe not until they face the thunder in the NBA finals. And so he'll advance a little further than those Bulls teams did. But I don't think you can win an NBA championship this way. I just don't. And I think that you can't be the most popular Nick of all time if you don't put a banner up in Madison Square Garden. Well, I'm just more optimistic than you, perhaps. You are.

You are. I mean, I think they would get crushed by the thunder. I think the thunder are going to win this championship, and people are somehow going to say that they hate them. I don't know. That's what I think is happening here. So I'm going to throw this at you. There are some genetic and gender realities that seem unfair to me. You're driving on the freeway.

You're driving on the freeway. Be totally honest. If a skinny guy is in a car eating, he's got burgers. You're thinking to yourself, that guy's on the go. He doesn't have time to stop. That guy is hot. He is making things happen. A heavyset guy in a car is eating burgers.

You're like, and I am too. Oh, really? You can't even drive without eating. I mean, give me a break. Like, what? You can't pull over. You have to, it's a, we have no idea about those two people. That is how people view weight.

We're all waitists at times. Gender. Okay. Gender. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not saying no to your premise. I can't, I love your analogies. Go ahead.

Here's a gender reality. Men can hate each other. Jordan still holds a grudge against Isaiah. Somehow it makes him more likable. Men can taunt, can trash talk. If Angel Reese appears to hate Caitlin Clark, it becomes a race topic. It is outrageous. It is unfair.

And I'm like, time out. Women athletes. can hate rivals too. It's not, to me, I'm like, is it race? Well, hate is, it used to be a commodity. Like you loved the Ryder Cup. We hated the Euros. Now everybody's rich.

But the Caitlin Clark Angel Reese rivalry, one got the best of the other in college, the junior year, the other one got the best the senior year. One goes Midwest, small city. goes big city, one gets more press. I just, I look at it and I think, it doesn't bother me that Angel Reese doesn't like Caitlin like, like, by the way, Caitlin's game is fun and flashy. Angels a rebounder.

Like, she's there probably got a little built-in animosity. She won't get the press. I think it's the worst story in sports media. I hate the discourse around it. I think it's, I think it brings out the worst in everybody. I really do think it's just a lot of people are showing their ass on this. this story. Of course what you just said is correct. One of my things, it's a trope, it's a cliche that I've just, I like the turn of phrase that I created. Less hate in the world,

more hate in sports. Yeah. Sports hate is good. It is objectively good. Now, when it leads to like fights in the stands, okay, fine, someone took it too far. But that doesn't mean that it is a bad thing. Trash talk, rivalries, bulletin board material, lobbying shots in the press, hard fouls, stare downs, the occasional fight.

Those things are good. They're good for ratings. They're good for business. They're good for fan interest. They're good for Jersey sales. They are good. It is good for the WNBA, for there to be sports hate. Yes. For there to be rivalries. Yes. It is a good thing.

That is so objectively obvious. true that I can't believe anyone even dares to deny it. I do think the bird magic stuff is a little ridiculous because bird and magic in terms of talents were kind of equals. Yes, yes.

This is more like Michael Jordan and Bill Lambier. You know, they were rivals. That's where it ended. But they're not really the same type of player, right? They hated each other. They had great moments, but they were not like, no one was like, you know who carried the NBA to popularity, Michael Jordan and Bill Lambere. It was not how we discussed. Caitlin Clark is the phenomenon. She's the comment. And like, does that spur jealousy? No doubt.

Are there interesting racial components to that story that I think are fair to be discussed for a league that has had great players, white and black, before Caitlin Clark, why haven't they caught on in the same type of way? Like, I think that there is, like, fair conversations to be had there. But a hard foul by Angel Reese in a basketball game that, like, didn't even result in a fight, it resulted in, she said the F word. Like, what the hell is the matter with people? I know. I mean, it's, it's embarrassing. Like, and the, we don't need to name the names. Everyone knows the discourse of, you know, who's going, like, you're talking about people's

wives and you're making it personal and then you're bringing all these. Shut up. Shut up. It's just so, it's so beneath the industry to like take the discourse of online. You are amazing at not being too online. I give you a ton of credit for it. Nick, Nick Wright, it's amazing how he doesn't read his mentions. I still am addicted to my phone.

I still read my mentions. I have gotten much, much, much, much, much better about not letting it bother me and not responding. But it is so very clear that way too many people in our industry formulate their opinions based on the algorithm that they see on X. And it's just complete horseshit. Like, I don't believe that people that go to that basketball game left being like, you know what that was a race war? Like, you know, I'm not like, I, it's crazy. And I'm not the biggest WNBA fan.

I'm not claiming to have WNBA bona fides or like watching for years or like going 10 deep on all the rosters. So people like, Parkins, I don't give a shit about your WMBA takes. That's fine. I just know sports and narratives. That is a good thing for business. And people taking their online commentary that is designed to divide us and then making it actually like inform their sports opinions on television when they are

multi-millionaire former professional athletes, they don't even realize what they're doing, but it's just very embarrassing. I really do find it embarrassing. Yeah. It's my take on Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese from the beginning is the league was growing, but she's Taylor Swift and tennis shoes. She's not, doesn't have to be the best player in the league. Taylor Swift doesn't have the best voice.

Adele does. Like, she doesn't have the best voice. There's some visceral connection between young women, middle-aged women, and Taylor Swift that I can't explain. I'm usually good at listening to music or watching sports. and going, that's a superstar. I didn't see it with Taylor Swift. There's been Lady Gaga, I connected.

There have been a lot of artists. Adele. You were a pretty bad guy? Yeah, when I heard Katie Perry, I was, but like Adele, when I heard Adele, I was like, holy shit, what is that? That's crazy. Lady Gaga did that to me. I remember Garth Brooks years and years ago hearing him and going, it was like new country.

It wasn't like, you know, old in my dog and my porch. it was like cool country. And I'm like, Shania Twain. I'm usually pretty good at spotting stuff and going bang. The Taylor Swift, I can't even explain it now. She's got a nice voice. She's really smart, but I can't explain it. Caitlin Clark's not that hard to explain.

Holy shit. She's taking shots that some NBA players wouldn't take. I said she's Steph Curry plus Jason Kitt. The 60 foot passes, the 30 foot bombs. You're like half the. NBA would not make those plays. She's a comet because it doesn't look like anything else. Right. Of course. If a player in five years started dunking like Anthony Edwards, like, oh my God. Right. It's unbelievable because we haven't seen it in the WNBA, right? So yeah,

I think that part of it is also very obvious. She's the Steph Curiization of basketball. has hit women's basketball in a way. And at a moment, and you and I've talked about this months ago now, like, listen, part of this is ESPN, which the world is changing, cable is changing. Fine. It is still the behemoth of sports television. They promote the shit out of it. Yeah.

That helps. Like, real talented analysts, real talented broadcasters, real, they're not on ESPN news. Like, they're in good time slots on good networks, on ABC, on ESPN in prime time, on weeknights with a real pregame show and a real post game show and a real play-by-play guy. And they do a good job on college hoops. And so, like, they're invested in it. And it's a cyclical thing. And they hit this phenomenon.

Like, the fact that that game that was a blowout, outrated Yankees Red Sox. that matters. Yes. Like that that matters. And so I just, yeah, I mean, all the respect in the world to her talent, all the respect in the world to like people who have been WMBA fans for forever and have been like now that to say I told you so. But I just, I wish our media colleagues realized a little bit better that they were being played

by the algorithm because they're all athletes. They can't possibly be offended by that foul. It's impossible that a bunch of football players were so offended by that foul that they had to make this big of a deal out of it. So I just eventually they'll need to talk about the basketball. And I think for some people, it's just easier to culture war everything. And I think it's unfortunate.

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We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how did we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Oh, we were thinking, I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band.

Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast. People could call in and say, hey Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys.

Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and Headwriters. or street or sidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis. And I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs. And on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on Clay.

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Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or website. wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what.

He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall.

And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court licking his fingers while he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah. You figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So I was surprised by the result on the tush-push vote. So I was surprised. So I've stated before that two things matter to the NFL in no particular order. Entertainment and Safety. Put them in the order you want. This breaks... Yeah, I think your order is correct.

And this violates both. It's ugly television, and it looks like it's going to get somebody hurt. And Cam Chancellor used to jump over kicking teams to block kicks. There was no data that people were getting hurt. But the NFL's like, you know, it looks kind of dangerous. We're going to ban it. Now, kickoffs, there's data, there's more concussions. They've changed it.

the horse collar tackle. There's data. It's hurting players. They changed it. But Camp Chancellor jumping over the lines, there was no data that players were just falling to the ground. They didn't, they just thought, in this day and age, it looks like people can get hurt.

So that's my thing with a tush push. It's bad TV. But it does look like, kind of, it's not really healthy. I contend it passed for one reason. And it's the same reason sometimes you'll be flying through TikTok, and somebody will catch your attention. Tony Robbins is the first in our lifetime that did it regularly. He could captivate you with a rant.

I'm going to make you a better person. You're like, who's this guy on late night infomercials with Fran Tarkenton like 40 years ago? And he's made an industry of it. Now there's copycats everywhere. But there are these people that are highly performative, Gordon Ramsey, you know, Tony Robbins. And there's, they're in all walks of life. To some degree, you and I do that for a living. There are politicians that are very performative.

And I think Jason Kelsey is the reason it stayed. I think he's kind of a Midwest, grinder, salt of the earth, huge brand, totally respected. Owners in this league have listened to players for a long time. They do. They listen to the players. And there are certain players they really like. They like the tough guys in the trenches. And I think he reportedly got in front of the owners.

and he sold them on it. And I think he flipped about four of them. And I think he was an influencer. He had the ability to literally galvanize these guys on the – because you know, 10 were not going to ban it. 10 were absolutely. And like anything else, Danny, there's a third of the league just sitting there thinking,

I don't know, what's Jerry doing? What's Crunky doing? What's Kraft doing? I think Kelsey's the reason it stays. I think that that's totally reason. and I'm sure there will be reporting from the meetings on the vote that might very well indicate that you're right. I would only quibble a little bit with your phrasing of like, it passed. The vote was to ban it, and they needed 24 votes to ban it and 22 voted to ban it.

Right. The narrowest. The majority of the league did. They just didn't get the super majority that they needed, right? well over 50% wanted it gone. They just didn't get to the 75% threshold. I think that some of the discourse around this, because there isn't data yet on player safety. I agree with you.

It looks like it, but there is not data on it. Jason Gelsie, actually, before he came into a lobby for it, had spoken to how much it did feel like it beat him up. So, you know, I think he was doing the Eagles a solid there, frankly. To me, the only argument that should matter is that it's bad television. It's the only argument that should matter. They banned the shift in baseball.

Not because it was bad strategy to deploy a shift, because they didn't want to see Kyle Schwerber come to the plate, rip a ball that would be a double, and instead it's an out. So they banned it. In the NBA, they're like, you know, it's not great. If you can just stand there in the lane for 10 seconds and clog up everything. Three second violation.

They banned it. For the good of the game, for the good of the sport, for the good of the flow, for the good of offense, for the watchability of the product. We do this all the time in sports. And I know that Eagles fans took it personally

because they were the best at it and they created it. But I thought what AJ Brown said just yesterday was the right, he's like, I'm not concerned about it. It's a yard. Do we really think that the biggest offensive line in the NFL with the strong, quarterback in the NFL with the best running back in the NFL is all of a sudden not going to

win the Super Bowl because their gimmicky rugby play now has to just be an old school quarterback sneak that, oh yeah, by the way, Tom Brady was excellent at. Like if Tom Brady can sneak for a yard, not a great athlete compared to Jalen Hertz, I think Jalen Hertz would be just fine without the tush push. So I thought that Philly fans should go the other way with this. Yeah, we created something and now you said we're too good at it and we won a Super Bowl and you're going to ban it. That's on you. We'll win a Super Bowl without it. And just like take it as like a source of pride.

Instead they got very defensive and you're trying to take away our play and you're making this just about you. I'm like, I swear to you if it was the Bears who invented it, I'd be like, that's stupid. It's a dog. In the NFC championship game, a referee had to get on a loudspeaker and be like, if you jump over the line of scrimmage one more time, I'm just going to award them a touchdown. That is dumb. The bills did it in the AFC championship game.

The spot of the ball, we have 400 HD cameras. And everyone's like, where is the ball? We couldn't tell because there's 20 people swarming to it. So I just, I think it's just objectively uninteresting. And I don't, like, the whole point of sports is that it's unpredictable, that you don't know what's coming. If every time you get in that formation, and I know Philly fans are like, well, one time we faked out of it. Okay. If 99% of the time you get in that formation, the exact same thing happens, it's not good television. That should be enough reason for it to be

banned, but, you know, whatever. Okay. So, you know, I was passionate about it because I thought it was, and you're a good arguer. You tell me what you think about this. What is to stop someone from doing it first and 10 from the 30? Just take the guy in the world who has the strongest legs, make him your backup quarterback, put him under center, second and seven, third and four, fourth and two. First and 10. Second and eight.

Third and five. Fourth and two. First and ten. And just rugby their way down the field. Well, it probably won't happen. But normally slippery slope arguments suck. But I honestly do think that if you allow something like this to like really gain steam and everybody starts working on it, like the next iteration of the tush push, everyone's going to be like, oh, that's taking it too far. Well, then you got to outlaw it now.

Yeah, I think it's such a beating on your offensive lineman. I don't think you would do that unless, I think, used the scarcity of it is really valuable for even the team that's successful because it's just beating the hell out of your offensive line. I could see that happening in crappy weather, Sequin Barkley gets hurt, and you've got to burn five plays. That I can see happening. But it is a beat down.

It's like the wildcat. The wild cat sounded great. But if you have a good quarterback, it would piss him off if you kept snapping to the fullback. Like, it wasn't good for the room, right? I can see Drew Bledso. Oh, okay. What's the point, right? They stink as soon as he heard the AJ Brown quote of being like, yeah, I don't care.

It's just one yard. He was immediately like, a typical receiver. where he just wants a fade. He just wants to fade from the one yard line to get more touchdowns. He hates that the ball's never going to him. But yeah, I mean, I think eventually someone will get hurt or too many teams will do it. And this will be up for a vote again in a year or two or three. And it'll it'll get banned.

But, you know, we got another year of rugby on 0.5% of our plays in the NFL. Okay. So I want to end with this. So you would, and I would admit this too. I've moved around the country. People know that. Generally, when I move around the country, the only sports team that I tend to, it's hard because I love football so much, when I lived in Tampa, I was kind of a Bucks fan.

I grew up in the Northwest. I was a Seahawk fan. I live in Los Angeles. I'm a Ram and Charger fan. I try not to be a homer on the air, but it's, I know people in the front office. I have contacts there. Now I moved to Chicago. I've already got connections with the Bears, right?

So I'm talking to people. And so, and you grew up here. So I under, I've always understood that. Bill Simmons loves the Celtics. You're going to love your teams. I get it, right? Like, like in the audience understands that. You're still objective.

But I, but I said this, this week on the show, on FS1, I said, I'm going to take five quarterbacks that we, that we would, we're not going to, I'm not going to take a Justin Herbert overrated, Jalen Hertz, underrated. I'm not going to take guys on the fringe. I'm going to take Andrew Luck, Jaden Daniels, Joe Burrow. who else did I take? C.J. Stroud. I took somebody else.

I took five of them. And I said, and I didn't take Mahomes. I took Lamar Jackson. So I said, let's get Mahomes Allen out. Okay, they're like historically great. Like, so I took five guys that none of us are going to argue, they're all great. How long, once they had a competent coach, did it take for you to go, oh, shit, they're, that's a franchise guy. So C.J. Stroud did not throw an interception until week six.

Pretty obvious he was different. Lamar Jackson won six of his first seven. And by the second game, you were wondering if he was even faster than Michael Vick. He was electric. Joe Burrow, Weeks 2 and 3, is throwing for 350 yards behind an absolutely atrocious offensive line with a coach nobody like. Jaden Daniels, weeks 2, 3, and 4, he's completing like 28 of 31. You're like, okay, this is a cheat code.

What is going on? And Joe, and so I went down and threw all the. of them. So now I bring you to Caleb Williams. So yeah, again, golf with Jeff Fisher, golf with McVeigh. By week two, he's throwing for 350 yards. You're like, oh, Jared Goff can play. Yeah, like, he's, he's beating Mahomes in a shootout on Monday night football. You're like, you know, pretty early in his career, you're like, oh, yeah, this dude can play. So first week. So my take is good not great is hard to spot.

Real deal and socks jumps off the page. So week one, Caleb Williams faces Brian Flores at home, perfect weather. Let's say he struggles. Brian Flores has been punitive to young quarterbacks. And Caleb Williams is bad.

What is your take? I won't be handling it well, Colin. you that. I won't be handling it well. He needs to be very good right away. And here's the thing. Obviously, I watched every down of the Bears last year and have for my entire life. He is good. He's good. Now, it was not easy. It was not always pretty. But I trust my eye test here. If you get It's sacked 68 times and still have better than a three to one touchdown the interception ratio. And your play caller got fired nine games in to your season.

And then you fire your coach. And you had controversy and you lost on a Hail Mary. And you had all of that hype and that scrutiny. And the guy who was drafted behind you is having a historic rookie year and goes all the way to the NFC championship game. And you get your ass kicked. play all 17 games and like you're still standing at the end of it, you don't suck. Like, bad, you said like good, bad.

He's not bad. Right. He's not bad. I'm not worried about bad. It's, I still think the guy's ceiling can be MVP of the league. Okay. Like, I still think greatness is very likely an outcome here. But, yeah, week one, Minnesota, Monday night football.

Week two. John's against his old team. Yeah. Yeah. I will say this. I will say this. It seems like 40% of the years in the last, like, decade, the bears have opened with the Packers. I know that's not actually accurate, but it feels that way.

That's the absolute worst. Any Bears fan will tell you, Bears Packers, it just is like a different thing. All of our families have some Packers people in it. Like, for me, it was extreme. My dad's entire family was from Wisconsin. Like, you just, you're in weddings with these people. You work with these people. Your neighbors with these people.

Like, my old radio station signal, like, reaches far into Wisconsin. Like, you could hear it in Milwaukee. So, like, it's just like, it, Bears Packers, week one is too stressful. There's too many grand. Like, I can handle Bears Vikings week one. I can handle Bears Lions week one. Bears Packers, if Caleb Williams would come out week one and get outplayed, by Jordan Love and they would lose and he'd throw like two picks.

That's just like sky's falling type stuff. So I think I can handle Bears Vikings on Monday Night Football Week 1. But if he's terrible, I'm not going to be handling it well. It's going to be tough to be neutral. I'll be totally honest with you. That's going to be unfortunate. But if he's great, oh, deep dish beats on TV for everybody. No, I saw that first game and I went, oh, God, Flores.

What a nightmare. Florist just eats. Yeah, it's not a great spot. But, but again, like, but it can go the other way. Put up 30. Put up 30. We never mentioned Shane Waldron's name in Chicago ever again. You know what I mean?

Like wasted rookie year. Why did you hire Eap? Why did you blow it all up and start fresh with Kate? Like put up 30 week one and all of your sins are forgiven and we're good. Yeah, you know, the other thing, Danny, that wasn't true years ago. there are so many good young offensive coaches now in the NFL that it used to be if your first coach didn't work, you were screwed. But like Gino, Darnold, Baker, Tua had Brian Flores, then he was a pro boulder.

Goff's first year was not only unremarkable, it was unrecognizable. So the truth is now there are multiple examples. Sam Darnold's a totally different player. It used to be there were like four or five offensive guys that were next level. Like every other staff has the next Ben Johnson or an offensive coach. So, I mean, God, look at, I mean, you go to the AFC alone. It's like, oh, there's Andy Reid and, oh, there's Sean Peyton. And there's Jim Harbaugh.

In the same division, you have those four coaches on staff. So I think we've gotten to a point where if you have a Mulligan season, it just, I mean, nobody remembers golf's first season. He was 0 and 7, I think. It just disappears. Yeah, listen, I mean, in Jacksonville, Trevor Lawrence showed enough through multiple failed coaches that they still gave them a quarter of a billion dollar contract.

They hit on Brian Thomas last year. They draft Travis Hunter this year. They hire Liam Cohen to be their coach, who was a big part of Baker Mayfield's success in Tampa being as consistently great on offense as they've been. Like, he's in year five. Like, does Trevor Lawrence enrage me in way too many thumpings? and Red Zone Interception, no doubt. Like, I think that, like, selling stock on Trevor Lawrence has been totally reasonable.

Like, his career is not over. Right. You know, like, it's, his career is not over. Like, if Liam Cohn could do that with Baker, it's definitely on the board that that Trevor Lawrence turns this thing around. Yeah. And rips off five, six, seven really good years and changes the complete narrative his career.

But now, listen, I think it's still much more. likely than not that Caleb Williams is great than he is mediocre. Danny Parkins, F.S.1. Love him on the volume. stops by about once, twice a month. As always, this was great. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, this was fun. Thanks, Colin. Anytime. The volume. Hey, guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people.

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