The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - Knicks Beat Celtics In Game 5 Thriller, Brunson Dazzles, Jayson Tatum Injured, Mavericks Land #1 Pick + Cooper Flagg,

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

Colin’s joined by Jason Timpf, host of “Hoops Tonight” to break down the Knicks beating the Celtics in Game 5 to go up 3-1 and the NBA draft lottery. They start with a thrilling game 5 between the Knicks and Celtics and highlight a dominant performance by Jalen Brunson compared to a Celtics team that was completely out of rhythm outside of Jayson Tatum (4:00).  Colin points to Brunson landing with the Knicks as the key to him breaking out as a superstar (7:00).  Jason argues Brunson may be the best small guard in the league, and Colin puts him in a class with the best Knicks ever (9:15). They discuss the Celtics poor ball movement and shot selection as what led to them losing, but give huge props to Jayson Tatum for his incredible performance prior to going down with an injury (16:00). They break down the ripple effects of Tatum’s injury on the Celtics future and whether they might be forced to blow up an aging roster if Tatum is out for a year (19:15). Colin argues that the Knicks may be primed to be the dominant team in the East with the Celtics facing an uncertain future but Jason argues the Cavs and Pacers would like a word (22:00).  They pivot to the NBA draft lottery and the Mavericks landing the #1 overall pick despite long odds and the ability to draft Duke star Cooper Flagg, why the basketball gods just gave the Mavs possibly the greatest gift EVER and why the draft order couldn’t have gone better for the NBA (35:00). They look at the Spurs, Thunder and Rockets as potential landing spots for Giannis and point to the results of the draft making the west even stronger compared to the east (41:00). Finally, they point to NIL giving top prospects the ability to take the better marketing of playing for blue chip college programs, and why recognizable domestic talents will help the NBA (45:00).  (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates!  #Volume #Herd #HoopsTonightSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Cat in the first half, Brunson, Mikhail, Bridges. Oh, gee. Listen, this is a cliche, but you always hear, oh, that team wanted it more. And I'm always like, he'll give me a break. I'm sorry. That crowd fed that team. I didn't think the Knicks offensively, Jason, had that half, that second half in them. That was an incredible display of shot making to me. Yeah, it was unbelievable. My wife was kind of just pittling around walking through the room. And she goes, that Jalen Brunson, he really has been putting the Celtics away in this series. And I was like, he's been doing this to everybody, this entire playoff run. It's like you get into a game with him where it's close late. And he just, he's one of the most

gifted shot makers I've ever watched Colin. It's, it's like a, it's almost like an alpha like number one version of what Jamal Murray does where it's just a steady diet of like right shoulder fades, left shoulder fades, stepping back to the left, stepping back to the right off of movement in a off ball situation, off of movement in a high ball screen. He can just hit so many different types of jump shots from so many different spots on the floor that it gives him like a lot of, you know, counter moves so that he can always get a shot off. And then he's just worked so well towards polishing up his shot making in those situations. It's just remarkable. And I thought also Tom Thibodeau giving Brunson that quick rest, kind of an interesting subplot in this game,

was Jalen Brown being in some foul trouble and not starting the fourth quarter. And what was weird about that is typically that's Jalen Brown's unit. But because Tatum had to lead that early fourth quarter unit, Tatum just kept hunting switches. And so it was a lot of one on one from Tatum. And Tatum was hitting shots, but no other Celtic was in any

rhythm. And what was really a smart move from Tibbs, I was joking with a couple of my Lakers buddies, I was like, is Tom Tibido about to pull a JJ Reddick and just play everybody for the whole 24 minutes? But no, he brings in Deuce McBride in the early fourth quarter. And so then they start running action for Mikhail

bridges and Mikhail catches a heater and starts hitting those little mid-range 15 footers and the ball's moving around and OG's hitting shots and Katz getting a bucket. Mitchell Robinson's getting a dunk. And the Knicks had a bunch of guys in rhythm in that fourth quarter. And so even when Tatum was hitting shots, it kind of felt like it was over because the Knicks just had so many more things going. And I mean, even at the time of the Tatum injury, they were up by nine at that point. But I'd be remiss if I didn't say, Colin, I agree with you.

That was an unbelievable game. And that Tatum injury is just a huge buzz kill, just a huge buzz kill. Just a huge buzz kill at the end of that. Yeah, we'll circle back to the Tatum injury, which is absolutely awful. But the game felt like it was over before that. You know, I was thinking about Brunson. And we talk about this in football all the time where where you land matters. I mean, Mahomes would be great anywhere.

He may be the best quarterback ever because he lands with Andy Reed. Like, it does matter. So Brunson's got a little Steve Nash. You know, Steve Nash, Canada. Santa Clara, goes to the Mavericks. Good player. Good player.

Plays with another star, international star, Dirk. And he goes to Phoenix and just blossoms. Always talented. You're like, oh my God,

he's the most valuable player in the league. This is the best offense. That was before the three-ball era. Phoenix was scoring 128 regularly, like before the three-ball. And you're like,

well, I knew he was good. I didn't think it was the most valuable player. Brunson similarly plays in Dallas, has an international cohort, is very good player, nobody disputes it, very good player, goes to New York, they give him like Nash, the keys to the offense, and I always like Brunson. Like Nash, I never saw this. I never saw honestly, he right now, and I'm talking the whole league, he's as good of a late game, shot maker as the league has. And you'd watch Nash when he would never touch it with his right hand and he'd do that

left hand or off the glass, like three times a game. And you're like, okay, that doesn't make any sense. You're six one. How are you throwing that over trees? And I'm not saying their games are similar, but it just goes to show, Jason, when you empower a player who's got a little chip, who's overlooked, you give him the keys to the offense, he gets the right coach. It's a magical thing.

he's the first guard that I can think of in well over a decade because that's how long step's been doing it he's the first guard to legitimately make it a debate who's the best small guard in the league like it used to be step forever and it wasn't close like every time someone would bring up dame you're like nowhere near the defender nowhere near the off ball player jalen brunson and this surgical walking teams down over and over and over again in the fourth quarter thing it's remarkable he's turning losses into wins it's amazing stuff that he's doing. He's doing it in this series against elite on ball defenders over and over again, shedding Derek White with nasty post spin moves as he fakes him out one way or the other,

hunting the Celtics Biggs in space. He is producing offensively at the level of the greatest players in the league. And it's no longer a conversation to me as to whether or not Jalen Bruncett could be the best player on a championship team. He absolutely can be. And I have to bring this up because I think this is important in the context of the storyline heading into the series. One of the themes coming into the series is Boston killed the Knicks in the regular season by hunting Brunson and by hunting Cat. And Cat has been a nightmare defensively in the series, although he did do a couple of better possessions against Tatum down the stretch of this game.

But Jalen Brunson has been very good defensively in this series. And repeatedly in crunch time in the wins they had in Boston, he got stops on Tatum on an island. He got stops on Jaylen Brown in an island. He survived post-up mismatches against Al Horford. Like, he's playing two-way basketball, too. Like, this is a, this is one of our better competitors in the league who is demonstrating for the world that he belongs in the conversation with the best players in the league.

Like, he legitimately has a case to be the best small guard in the league right now, and it's crazy. Yeah, and I said this. I always felt like Ewing was the best Nick ever, and I always felt, you know, Mello was a little overstated because I thought he was a profound offensive talent, but not necessarily a guy, not a great leader. And I said this a couple years ago, I said, I would take, you know, Walt Frazier, Ewing, Bernard King, Brunson feels like he's in that class. I mean, for as bad as the football teams are, he's like the best quarterback in New York. Like, he is what New York team should be. New York teams should be tough. They should be resilient.

They should be fighters. They shouldn't be. You know, they shouldn't be slick. That's for L.A. teams or Miami teams. It's like New York teams, New York basketball from Syracuse to Pearl Washington's. You know, like Syracuse, the matchup zone defense, the great Nick teams with Pat Riley, Walt Frazier was a great defensive guard, Willis Reed. Like the culture of basketball in New York is tough and physical. And I just watched them tonight, and I thought to myself, listen, if the NBA,

and I think it's a really smart plan, is going to allow for more. physical play, I do think there is a cat issued offensively on this team. That's why Mitchell Robinson is in that game in the second half. Like, we'll take Katz scoring early. We'll go with Robinson, even though he can't hit a free throw. I do think they have to kind of clean up the pick and roll defense with Kat at some point in personnel. But the league is allowing this kind of physical play. And their ball movement, their defense, I don't know. I look at it and I'm like, I don't think I'd screw it up. The chemistry is just remarkable.

Like, I think Cat is a really nice offensive piece, but God, well, coach teams are going to attack him. If you had to, and I know it's not the night, but I came out of that thinking, they don't need KD. They don't need another shotmaker. That was my take, do they? I don't, yeah, I think a more reliable version of Mitchell Robinson at the center position would be a really interesting.

interesting piece. Like you, you mentioned the pick and roll defense. Let's say, let's say the results hold, which I believe they will. If Tatum's injured, I think the Knicks are going to win the series. And I believe the Pacers will close out the calves, although that's not necessarily over. The Pacers are a very, very difficult team to guard. And they specifically capitalize on dudes who are slow-footed in space. That's, that is how they take advantage of you. And the calves are fast and they're cutting them to pieces. They hung 80 points on them yesterday in the first half. The Caves or the Pacers are playing some special basketball. So a lot of it depends on how next round goes. If they hold up well and they beat the Pacers, I think it's a much more complicated conversation about the type of move they need to make. But if they get beat by,

if they just get flat out beat by the Pacers, I think what you have to look at is, McHale Bridges kind of makes sense as a secondary player next to Jalen Brunson. He can run that action when he's off the floor. Ogen and OBI and Obey to me is like the quintessential weakside scoring forward. Like he just scores off the skip passes. The ball gets skipped to him and he shoots a three or he drives the close out.

Jalen Brunson is proving that he can be that on ball guard that can lead a championship team. Get a kick ass center. Get somebody. Get somebody that can really guard that can really defend in space. That can really do the things that they need to kind of tie all of that together. And I'm not sure like there's like maybe they can turn around and try to flip cat towards like, you know, maybe they call Dallas and they go, hey, maybe you want to pair cat with Anthony Davis and we'll take Derek lively and PJ Washington for more forward depth or

something like that. I could see them making a move centered around cat if he gets exposed in the Pacers series, but so much of it just depends on what happens in that series. Hey, so we all make mistakes, but owning up to them is the right thing to do. So you know, degree cool rush deodorant, right? Well, last year they changed the formula and it did not go over well with their fans. So Degree's whole thing is it turns up the sweat and odor protection when you turn up the effort. And good thing it does because Cool Rush fans really turned up the effort to bring the original formula back. One guy even started an online petition. And Degree listened. They admitted they effed up. They're bringing back the original Cool Rush scent. They're bringing it back

and it's exactly how you remember it. Cool, crisp and fresh. It's back in Walmart, Target, and other stores now for under $4. There's a reason it's been the number one men's anti-perspirant for the last decade. It's the same reason why people were not happy when it changed. So if you've never tried it, it might be a good time to see what the fuss is about. Head to your local Walmart, Target, and try the OG degree cool rush for yourself. Let's talk, Boston. One of the things that really jumped out to me, first, credit to Tatum, who played one of his best playoff games as a Celtic. He was aggressive. He was hunting it. He was great. But one of the things I really noticed is the reason, as you noted earlier, the Knicks had such a great rhythm is they were just

Brunson, they move the ball. I think the Celtics get into this. It's not just the threes. They're a math equation. When they shoot threes poorly, they don't move the ball. And it just becomes, you know, pritcher off a screen. And I feel like some of that's on Missoula. There's a difference, but, I mean, again, they shoot a lot of threes.

But I go back to earlier this season when they were flying through good teams on the road. And I would watch them and I'd be like, God, their ball movement's exceptional. When I watched in the second half and I'm like, oh, this is just, this is like Tatum or Pritchard off a screen. I mean, a couple, and I thought Tatum played well, but a couple of his shots before the injury are like, bro, that is deep by your standards. And I think part of this series, I think Missoula did not do a great job. I don't think we can just blame it on missing threes. why did they have two games where they were atrocious

and why in the second half do they struggle? I didn't like their lack of ball movement. The shots they took in game three were the same shots they took in game two. It's, they just went in. And, you know, I was actually talking about this in my show today because I was trying to think about what I've learned from this next Celtics series to this point. And I think we can all agree that the Celtics,

when things are humming, are the best team in the league. Because they have just unbelievable shot, making mixed in with like high level reading and react stuff for wide open threes. And they can be great defensively. Like they were so good defensively in the first half of this game. They had the Knicks and handcuffs. But then there's also this lower floor than we all imagined. And the reason why is they just have never had an audible.

Like when they don't hit shots, they don't have like a like the nuggets who can be like, okay, the, you know, Jamal Murray doesn't really have it going. We're going to spam low post stuff with. Yokich or Yokish doesn't really have it going. We're going to go to the two-man game with Jamal Murray or Aaron Gordon has the size mismatched down low. We can just dump it down to him. They won a finals game doing that a couple years ago. There's a certain amount of variety that you see

in the best offenses in the league. And with Boston, it's kind of right now like Tatum or Brown hunting mismatches and they're driving kick attack. And that's basically all they have in their offensive game. And there is a there is a susceptibility they have to what happened tonight and what happened in the first two games, which is all the other guys are out of rhythm because it's turning into one-on-one ball at the top of the key. The shot made from Tatum was remarkable in that third quarter. I mean, he hit three or four really tough turn around fadeaways. But there's a little bit of a fool's gold element there if the other teammates are not involved. Drew Holiday, wide open three in the left corner, misses it in the fourth quarter because it's the only catch and shoot three he got

for like a 20-minute span of real time. Derek White misses a corner three. Even though, he had been hot all night because in the late third quarter, the ball wasn't moving around. He wasn't getting touches. He ends up missing that shot. And this is where it's the smart game plan. The Knicks had been using traditional coverages with Kat throughout the series. And there in that second half, they were like, just switch and just try to score on Kat. And guess what? Kat got scored on. He got scored on some. But it turned into a one-on-one contest. And the other guys all got froze out. No other self-execid rhythm. I bet you if you pull the numbers from the tail end of that game, Tatum probably outscored the entire rest of his team over the final 17, 18 minutes of that game.

Yeah, it was ISOs at the top, wasn't ball movement. People got cold while the Knicks. Everybody was getting touches. Josh Hart didn't have a big offensive game, but that didn't mean he didn't touch the ball. And that's the difference. Porzingis was disappointing. I will tell you, over the course of the season, Peyton Pritchard's emergence, I don't know exactly what Porzingis is.

I thought tonight he was in bad position. He had multiple opportunities where he had the best position off a rebound and jumped too early or got pushed out of the way. I don't know. I think that's a movable piece. Like I think they'll come out of this series. My opinion is they'll move Porzingis. Well, let's dig into this a little bit, Colin, because, I mean, fingers crossed that it's good news for Tatum, but I have a feeling that it's what it looked like and he's probably going to be out for all of next season.

And if that is the case, Chris Hopps Porzingis is about turned 30 years old, and he's made of tissue paper. Yeah. Drew Holliday is 34. Al Horford's 38. Derek White is 30. And Jalen Brown's really good, but he's 28,

and he kind of is what he is at this point. I think it's possible if the Tatum injury is confirmed to be what it looks like, that Boston ends up essentially fire. a bunch of these guys this summer. Because what's the point? You're going to run back with Jalen Brown and 39-year-old Al Horford and Christop's Porzingis and like they'd be fine, but they're not, they're all of a sudden like the fourth or fifth best team in the West.

If they sign their first round pick, they have $500 million on the payroll. New owners who have a new bank note. That's not going to work. Exactly. They need to be, if it's, again, if it's confirmed, and I believe it will be, I mean, the body language, it's just brutal. You could just tell Tatum's heart was broken. But I think you almost have to look at it like the 2020 season for the Warriors

after the Kevin Durant injury and after the Clay Thompson injury where it's like, this is the year to be bad and to get off of money and to bring in the means with which to rebuild around Tatum and Brown. Because Tatum is 27 and he probably will make a full recovery and still be an all NBA level player when he gets back. And so there's an opportunity to kind of like use this year as a gap year to kind of get off of some of this old money. Drew Holiday is going to be useful to somebody. There's going to be somebody out there who will look at Drew Holiday and be like he'll help us win a championship.

Orford might even be that guy for somebody. There's, you know, Derek White, I think would fetch a super high price right now, although I wouldn't get rid of him unless he fetched a super high price because he's at the age where he can still help Tatum and Brown. But yeah, their entire outlook fundamentally changes by this. Because this was already, Colin, kind of a sneaky old roster. And it kind of felt like a two to three year window where you had an opportunity to win. And if Tatum's down, there's no opportunity to win. For the record, nice job, Goldie. Celtics only had 15 assists second fewest all season.

So my eyes and your eyes did not deceive us. Iso ball. Isolation top. Didn't pass the ball. we were right. They're averaging 19 assists in the playoffs down from 26 in the regular season. So this is Joe Missoula. They're not moving the ball. Nice job, Goldie. Yeah, and here's the other thing I thought about. I'll throw this at you. Oklahoma City is only getting better. Okay. If you look at San Antonio, who has the number two pick and two young stars, actually three,

only getting better. Yeah. Yeah. Houston may be in the KD or Yanna sweepstakes only getting better. What's interesting is that this may be the Knicks year, circling back to the Knicks. It's like, guys, the West, Cooper flags going west. Dallas now is with that front line is going to be something. Dallas, OKC, Houston, San Antonio, the argument you can make today, they will all be better. Golden State won't. Lakers may not.

Those four will be. So it really creates urgency. Like, we know this. Remember the Seahawks we thought in the NFL were going to have a dynasty? They win one. They get to the second. Weird play call at the goal line. Never get back.

That play call did something to the locker room in the culture. They never recovered. I mean, you say, oh, Boston'll be fine. What if Tatum's out next year? It's one thing when he misses two games. It's another one he misses 82. Poor Zingis you can't trust. They may be Denver.

The Celtics may very well be Denver. The Knicks may end up if they can get to the finals and snag one with all the money and all the greatness of Boston. What if New York's like steals a championship? I mean, that's what's so crazy about this sport. is that we're in a run now where there are no great teams. But it looks like over the next two to three years, the West could have more than one. So I want to talk about that for a second. I do feel like Boston's going to be out.

Cleveland's out. Well, New York matches up with everybody else. I mean, OKC would go into that final as one of the youngest finals teams ever. Are we looking at everything falling for the Knicks? watch out for the Pacers, Colin. They are reaching a level on both ends of the floor now. That is really impressive. Like, I know the calves are banged up, Darius Garland with his toe injury,

and Mowgli's got an ankle, Donovan Mitchell's got an ankle now. But that team won 64 games. And this is the best way I could describe it, Colin. The Cavs beat the Pacers in the second half, 70 to 49 yesterday, and still lost by 20. Okay, that's how bad the Pacers beat them yesterday. So, like, this Pacer's team is, I'm, I'm nervous about Carl Anthony Towns guarding in that matchup.

That said, as we've seen with Denver in the OKC matchup, if you are facing a team that has some iffy shooters that you can help off of, it's an easier matchup for the Knicks. So, like, in a weird way, I give them a puncher's chance against an OKC because they'd be able to load up the strong side and all that kind of stuff. But it's like that that Pacers matchup is just such an interesting one with Cat because it's just a disaster for him having to guard in space. And Miles Turner's hitting every three he takes right now, which is causing problems for opposing Biggs.

And the Pacers are just playing at a really high level. So I would like I would look at that Knicks Pacer series by my initial gut feeling is to favor Indiana to be clear. So I, that's not an insult to the Knicks. It's just kind of a matchup thing. And I just am seeing stuff with Indiana. that I think is pretty special. They're kind of like the quintessential team basketball.

Like everyone is playing super well on that team. They're defending. They're picking up full court. Rick Carlisle hasn't playing super hard for 48 minutes every single night. But this has opened up in the sense that I'll just put it this way, Colin. Even if the Knicks won tonight, which I mean, we agree they would have, even if Tatum didn't get hurt, I still wouldn't have been surprised if Boston came back and won the series. But now it looks like they're almost.

certainly going to advance. And if they advance, they certainly have a great chance. Once you're in the conference finals, it's like anything can happen at that point. Yeah, it was really funny. Tonight was the first night watching the Knicks. And it was late. It was pre-tatim injury. Probably seven minutes left, and I thought, I'll go back to the beginning.

I just think New York's built for this series. I think it means more. I think the officials are letting them play. I think they're winning the coaching matchup. And they're underdogs. That's a powerful thing. Well, this has been great. So, folks, we just broke down Celtics and Knicks.

So what we're going to play next, we did these in inverse order. Right after the NBA lottery, Jason and I came on, surprised to say the least. So this was great. You and I now will go watch the Warriors, but we take you back, folks, to, minutes after today's fascinating and shocking NBA lottery. The NBA 82 game grind is done. Now the real fun begins.

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We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But, This one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys?

I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas.

And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas. and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on Clay. Jen she went. I mean, she went down at three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me.

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The same goes for BMW IX, everything you love about the ultimate driving machine electrified. All right, absolutely bonkers. I've said this before. Take games away. This is one of my favorite nights of the year. I just love it. And first of all, I, you know, once they, you know, I didn't want to see. Toronto win it. I'm sorry. I want Cooper Flagg to be here. I didn't want to see New Orleans,

Washington, Charlotte. After watching shooting guards, that documentary, I can't root for the Wizards ever again. I know it's a different group. I was so disgusted by it. But I said earlier today on FS1, I said, if San Antonio wins, Stefan Castle, Wembe, Cooper Flagg, I said, oh, poor Oklahoma City, they've done everything right. They had Westbrook Durant Hardin couldn't win. And now they're going to have this SGA Homegren roster, and they got this train for the next decade. But it's the Dallas Mavericks. You know, it makes me think of this. Listen, I thought the trade, Luca to the Lakers was terrible.

But I said before, the new CBA, he qualified Luca for 70, large, 70 million a year. And I was talking to one of my only friends that ever deals with billionaires. He's in, he's in, you know, venture capital. And he said, listen, man, he said, people are so rich now, 30 millions are rounding air. But even for a billionaire, $75 million for a basketball player, he better play defense, he better be in shape, he better be healthy. He said, they're not paying that to Luca. He goes, and that was his whole theory.

He goes, the pressure on Nico, some of it was like, okay, 75 million. He's missed the last two camps. So whether you like it or not, I did think. it was worthy of discussion. They just didn't get enough out of it. Three firsts, A.D., Austin Reeves, and another pick. It's like, okay, now we can sleep on it. But here's what's funny.

Jason Tenth. Essentially, instead of $300 million, you get the best domestic prospect in 10 years. Since AD or Zion. Is it not? Did the basketball gods not grant them the greatest gift ever? You know, I'm not Mr. The NBA is rigged.

I'm not that guy. But if you were that guy, this would be the day to make the case. Because in addition to the Dallas piece, which we'll get to in just a second, I think that the league has now just teed up San Antonio for the easiest Yonest trade that you could possibly imagine. and we can get into that in a second. But the Dallas front is super fascinating because Cooper Flagg in many ways

is everything that Luca isn't in the sense that he's got this like incredible work ethic, proven like details oriented, freakish competitor. But what he doesn't have is like just whatever you want to call that magic quality Luca has, which just brings that top side offensively that very few players in NBA history have reached by his age.

And Cooper Flagg has a little bit that sort of weakness in the sense that he doesn't have a singular point of his game that you can point to where it's like, oh, he is like an A plus plus plus plus athlete or he is a A plus plus plus shooter or anything like that. But he's just so

versatile down the line that he brings an element that Luca Donchage didn't bring. He's such a natural fit next to Anthony Davis which I really like. There's some big picture questions with Dallas's roster now with PJ Washington. Like how does he fit into this mix? I think

on one hand, I'm just so thrilled that Cooper didn't go to a team that was trying to be bad. I think that that's one of the nice kind of upsides of this is that it prevents that sort of mediocrity being rewarded. And then on the Janus front with San Antonio, what I find super fascinating is there are these three teams that are obviously teed up to be able to go get Janus. And that's Oklahoma City, San Antonio, and Houston. And Janus going to Oklahoma City would be no fun. Like, that's no fun. Yeah. They're just going to kill everybody.

Like that, that's literally no fun. And then Houston, it's kind of an interesting fit, but Houston is like athletic and can't shoot. So they seem to make the perfect sense for a KD team. You know what I mean? Right.

And so like ideally, Janus going to San Antonio makes the most sense. They have the clear pieces to be able to offer in terms of like, they can give Milwaukee both picks and like a really intriguing young prospect like Stefan Castle and a specific pick in this upcoming, draft, the number two overall pick, where they could hope to get a super high-level guard to help in the future. And so, would that be in the case? Like, I think this is broken out just about perfectly for what the league would probably like to see. Yeah, I mean, I think also, I don't think

I'd mess. The only thing I thought, I thought if San Antonio won the lottery was Stefan Castle Wembe and Cooper Flag, I thought Oklahoma City would be like, okay, all right, we're going to move home and seven picks and Lou Dort for Janus. Like, I'm sorry, but this is going to be a freight train for eight years in San Antonio. So I was saying, if you're Oklahoma City, you were rooting against San Antonio. They may not be next year, but that was scary. I wouldn't have minded Philadelphia winning, but I feel like it would have been almost unfair because they've really, I mean, let's be honest. They held on to M. B'd too long.

They blamed everybody except M. B'd for all their problems. Like, that's not fair. But I also think, as a sportscaster, when I look at this move for Dallas, is that I said this to a friend the other day, I said, you know the best trade partner for Dallas? They need a play initiator. They need Austin Reeves. And the Lakers need size. And Dallas has a really deep front line.

I said, they're not going to make that move. Now I think to myself, well, you know, I think what Dallas needs is somebody like Cooper flag who, let's just say he's Jason Tatum. I still think, I don't think Kyrie's going to play next year, not until at least the trading deadline. So Dallas has some extra size to play with.

But good God, look at this, Jason. The West is already better. Dallas now gets Cooper Flag. San Antonio gets the second best players, the Rutgers kid everybody loves. I mean, I keep looking at this thing. I was talking to Rachel

Nichols today. The West, is just going to get better. And Yonis, Milwaukee's not trading him in the East. They're trading him West. I mean, that's what I said about Milwaukee today. And the honest trade, take out Boston. If you go and get a Chet Hungren and multiple picks or go to Houston and get Shen Gulen,

Jalen Green, six picks and Jabari Smith, I'm throwing names out. Outside of Boston, you're not that far away from being the number two team in the East. In the West, you could not give up a Janus. It would be decimating. Portland, you know, they move off Dame. They have all this talent.

They're irrelevant. If you had to guess, Janus, who's the best fit? And I agree with you. Houston needs a shooter. Janus probably isn't the perfect fit. Yeah, the thing that would be really nice with Janus as a frontline partner with Victor Wembenyama is their games complement each other on a bunch of specific levels. So, for instance, Victor Wembenyama is blossoming as this like three-point center.

trick center. And he very clearly likes to take that shot. It's something he hunts when he's out there. So there's kind of like a spacing dynamic to where you don't want to have two centers basically playing with each other that both want to work right by the basket. And so there's kind of a natural fit there. But the second piece of it

is Wemby has some vulnerability to size and strength. And Janus does not. And so anchoring Wembe with a 611 forward that is one of the most physically dominant forwards of his era is kind of perfect natural fit there.

And they already have with the Deerran Fox piece, the ball handling piece. So you can actually see this like this like rim protection center. Yonis has always played better next to a center. When they, when the Bucks used to play him at center, they used to have issues because he's not as good at defending pick and roll as he is like kind of a traditional help side defender. And so Wemby can defend pick and roll. Janus can be their low man help side defender.

Deer and Fox is your point of attack guard. It just has such a natural fit there. And one of the things that was going to get tricky with San Antonio, and this is this is where that second pick is super interesting. You get to the question where you're like, man, are we going to have to give up Stefan Castle and Devin Vassell to make this happen? The number two pick is probably going to be Dylan Harper. And he's a very interesting guard out of Rutgers that has size and has some athleticism and can really get to the basket. Dylan Harper gives you another piece to include in a deal like that to maybe keep a castle or to maybe keep a Devin Vassell. Devin Vassell is kind of an off-ball shooter archetype, so he might be the

perfect guy to keep. He's also older and a little bit closer to being ready to contribute in a serious context. And so it kind of just feels like the stars are aligning in that way. If I'm Houston, I want to bargain serious for Janus, but KD is just such a nice backup plan for them to go to. That just fits so nicely there. And I'm so glad you mentioned the Austin Reeves, uh, Dallas piece, because that deal will never happen after what happened. If the Dallas, if the bat, if the best to do another deal with the Lakers, their fans might revolt. But there's such like an obvious like Gafford, Austin Reeves.

There's no question. Something like I think the Lakers would need to get more because I think Austin's a better player than Gafford. But there is like a, there's a version of that deal they could put together where they, where they get some athleticism back and it makes some sense. And it's just a question of whether or not that type of partnership would ever work out. The other, The other group that I'd look at if I was the Lakers with Austin is look at Brooklyn

and see if they can't get like a Nick Claxton or something like that and that type of deal. Yeah, it's, oh, I loved it so much tonight. It just cracked me up. Dallas, San Antonio, 76ers get the third choice, and Charlotte. I will say there's one thing I do think that really works in the NBA's favor. When you see a lot of these G-League guys like Jalen Green, and you kind of put your arms up in the air as an NBA commissioner and go, wow, a lot of these guys who are flourishing these young guys went to college or they're international, which their academy systems better than our current kind of G League system. And it's not that people will push back on the G League, but with NIL money at the top 10 programs now, comparable, you know, relative to the NIEC,

to the G-League money, I do think the domestic product, the draft is going to become less international at the top and more domestic, or at least it won't look like last year. I mean, this year is a great example. It's very domestic product. And so I think that really matters. I've said this for years. I understood the G-League pre-NIL, but I've said this about Jalen Green. He has no defined offensive game.

even if you spend a year in college with a Dan Hurley or a Bill Self or a Tom is just a year of hard coaching college campus fundamentals maturing, I think it really matters. Also, playing in March, playing on television, playing in a Big Ten or SEC environment where there's real pressure. Bad game, the students give you the side eye. Like, that's real pressure for 18, 19 year old. I mean, Cooper Flagg, you. play at Duke, you have 15 games on Natty TV, and then you have March. So I do think college basketball has been a bit marginalized by the league. I got it pre-N-I-L. But now if I was a dad, I would take a little less and go with a marketing advantage of Kansas, Syracuse, Yukon. Would you

not? I think you're dead on with this, Colin. There is, there is a thing that happens in the G-League where they prepare you for the pro game in a certain way, in the sense that they'll put you in some NBA-esque roles where you're either running pie ball screens or you're behaving as the role man screener or you're attacking closeouts on the weak side, different NBA defensive concepts. All that's great. But you're not going to capture the intensity, the stakes, the overall, just like passion and vibe that you get in college basketball. It's the closest thing that you're going to find that replicates NBA playoff basketball.

I also think the coaching matters. Like, you're just going to give your kid the best. access to, you know, real, like intentional detail-oriented coaching. Because at that level, it makes such a huge difference when you're working with those types of athletes. And like, I think to your point, having NIL incentivizing kids to stay in the college game, in addition to just being great for just basketball culture, because to be honest, NCAA basketball is such a huge part of what I grew up rooting for. When I was a kid, Colin, I barely watched the NBA. I watched a lot of Arizona, the University of

Arizona basketball when I was like 16, 17, when I was going to play high school ball, those were the kids we idolized. We idolized the kids playing at the U of A. It's just, it's part of the culture. I think it just needed this. And I'm so glad the NCAA was willing to just kind of adapt into this era because we needed this for this sport to survive. I think it's better for the basketball players in our country. Yeah. And I've said this. I understand the NBA struggling with regular season ratings because regular season playoff basketball is about veteran teams and recognizable players. So the numbers go up plus the intensity. Regular season, there's a lot of guys you don't know. There's a lot of bad teams. And those are international players you didn't watch or

G League guys you didn't watch. And I've said this. You know, Amon Thompson is obviously G League and a great player. But you watch Jalen Green and you're like, man, he could have used college. He could really use college. He feels lost. Jonathan Cominga. I mean, we're on what year? Year four. I'm still trying to quite figure out what he is. He can't play with the veterans. I mean, San Antonio, Golden State's culture is classic. Every young guy struggles. Every young guy struggles. It could be Wiseman.

It can be Cominga, Jordan Poole, war out veteran players. And I love college basketball. And I was always more NBA than college because for a lot of reasons. I grew up with Bill Walton and the Blazers and the Sonics when they won championships in the 70s. I'm showing my age. But I will say those Christian Leitner Duke teams, the Fab Five teams, the FI, Slamma, Jama, it is impossible to describe to a 20-year-old what college basketball was like 35 years ago. You would literally, you could pick up Street and Smith, and you could name the first,

second, third team, All-Americans off the top of your head, because it was, you know, Duncan's coming back and Ewing. I can remember going in Las Vegas, there's a grocery store chain called Smiths. And this is like 20 years ago. And I got this, because I always get a Street and Smith, like before the college basketball season. And I looked on the cover, they had the All-American team, and it was four high schoolers. And I was like, okay, I can't. I'm sorry, I can't do it. So I just thought it, I just, God, this is fun.

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Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Winning on Clay is an art. The rallies are relentless. And at the French Open, only the toughest survive. I'd know. I competed there for decades. Join me, Renee Stubbs, on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast

for no-nonsense breakdowns of the biggest matches, the toughest players, and the moments that define Roland Garris. Jen, she's an outsider to win the French fame. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lennarabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman, at all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I-Hart podcast. Guaranteed Human.