The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - NBA Trade Deadline, Lakers Missing Ingredient, Clippers Play Beautiful Basketball, Brunson “Best Knick Since Ewing”

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

Colin is joined by Jason Timpf, host of “Hoops Tonight” on the Volume to talk all things NBA! They dive into the reasons behind the lack of moves prior to the NBA trade deadline(3:30) and what the missing piece is for the Los Angeles Lakers (4:45). They identify what’s missing from Jayson Tatum’s game compared with other superstar players (10:00) and why the Clippers play the most beautiful basketball in the league (15:30). Colin declares Jalen Brunson the “Best Knick since Ewing”(22:30) and gives his take on why he works so well in New York (27:00). They debate what roster moves the Warriors should make and what the future holds for that franchise (35:00). Colin holds Joel Embiid responsible for the lack of playoff success for the Sixers and explains why he’s an all-time “talent” and not an all-time player (40:00) Finally, they discuss the state of the NBA as a whole, why the league has better talent than TV ratings (44:00), how the rise of international players has changed the game (49a:00) and why playing second fiddle to the NFL isn’t necessarily a bad thing. (54:00). (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates! #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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All right, Jason, Timp and I are just about ready to talk about the Lakers before we start with Jason. I want to grab your smartphone, download the GameTime app. Grab it right now. That smartphone. 90 seconds, Game Time app. Want to go to a basketball game? Download game time. Use the code Colin C-O-L-I.

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app today, last-minute tickets, lowest prices guaranteed. Well, we haven't talked to Jason Timp for a long time. Jason is one of those gems we found, hunting through podcast after podcast, Hoops Tonight host. He's done just a remarkable job for us. His growth has been exponential. And we don't ignore him during the football season, but we got middle cop here is my lead back. So now we're pivoting here in about four or five days to the NBA. And I found myself about three weeks ago really starting to watch the NBA. And Jason and I are going to cut it up for about 45 minutes. Let me start with a trade deadline. A lot of times there can be sort of overhyped. trade suggestions. I have not seen any irresponsible reporting by NBA guys. I don't think there's a ton

out there. I think DeJante Murray would make the Lakers better. I don't think he's a game changer. So your thought on what is a pretty quiet trade deadline? Well, it's interesting because I think the play in tournament has made it so that more teams than ever are more willing to think within the scope of the current season, which has diminished the number of sellers. And yet, And yet there are so many teams that feel close, which has increased the number of buyers. But the problem is the majority of those buyers don't have much to offer. Like the Milwaukee Bucks and the Phoenix Suns would love to have a perimeter defense upgrade, but they don't have any first round picks to offer,

which severely limits their ability to go out and get somebody. The Lakers would love to go out and get an athletic guard, but they have some limitations in that. They basically have this one draft pick to offer, and chances are you can't get a really great transatlantic. formative player for that type of talent. And so in a weird way, even though there are a lot of teams that would like to make a trade, there just aren't that many trades to be made.

And so I think that will kind of limit what we see over the course of the next couple of days. Of course, you never know. We'll see what happens before the deadline of desperation kicks in and some stuff starts flying around. But I have a feeling that we're poised for a relatively quiet deadline. So you follow the entire league. Let's start with the Lakers because that's always been a primary asset of your

NBA knowledge. I've kind of rolled my eyes at any suggestion to trade LeBron, mostly because the five previous years before him, they had the lowest winning percentage in the league, and he saved the franchise. Ticket sales, merch, intelligence, he's still an elite score and distributor. I'm not given up LeBron for 19-year-olds that may or may not hit and be players. Here's what I view the Lakers as, and you can tear this apart. I view this team as an elite score and distributor, LeBron, the best defender in the league in Anthony Davis, an excellent third wheel, sometimes inconsistent, but a good score in Austin Reeves, excellent length. That's why they can match out with a Denver. They have excellent length. Could use another shooter. I would love to see them give up a little

length to get a shooter, DeJante Murray. Then I think they would be in the discussion as the third best team in the league. They're not Boston, though the Celtics have no bench, and they just beat them. and they're not Denver if Yokic. Anthony Davis does about as good a job as you can on him, and he's going to give you 28, 8, and 8, or whatever. But I think the move is a tweak, and I don't think I'm selling the future when I don't know because of the way the NFL draft works, I get 23-year-olds.

In the NBA, I get 19-year-olds. Who knows what they become? I have a much greater sense of a first-round NFL pick than a first-round NBA pick. So my take is, if you could get a shooter, give up a tad length, I think you're arguably capable of beating a Milwaukee, a Phoenix. Is that a fair kind of view of the Lakers? You know, the Lakers have had such a weird season, but it makes a little bit more sense when you kind of split it into thirds. So they come out the gates, and they're actually pretty solid. In spite of the fact that DeAngela Russell and Austin Reeves are both struggling, they started 15 and 9,

capped off with winning the in-season tournament, right? Then immediately after that, which was somewhat, I was cut, our mutual friend, Logan Swame, I was texting him at the time. I was like, I hope they don't just completely fall apart after winning this thing. They go three and ten over their next 13 games with some bad losses. They lost to a Spurs team that hadn't won in like a month. They lost to the Bulls. They lost to the Grizzlies.

They basically let go of the rope and it does a ton of damage to them in the standings. Well, they kind of circle the wagons and they get their feet back underneath them and their 10 and 6 in their last 16 games with some impressive wins. They beat the Clippers. They beat the Thunder. They beat the Celtics. They beat the Knicks. They beat the Mavs. They beat the Warriors. So I think more or less, I'm kind of exactly where I was with this team before the season, which is they're really damn good, but they're not as good as Denver. They're not as good as Boston. So I think, I think the silver lining and the reason why I would invest in this group is you and I talked about how LeBron and AD in a lot of ways needed to get better, especially on the offensive end,

for them to be able to hang with Denver. A LeBron James jump shot last year was worth 0.9 points. A LeBron James jump shot this year is worth 1.06 points. That's an 18% improvement. You've seen that when you watch the games. He's executing the Golden State Warriors with pull-up jump shots at the end of games. He just was completely incapable of doing that last year. He had a bizarre shooting slump in last year's season.

And then Anthony Davis is having the best post-up season of his career. He's reading double teams better than ever. And so he's been great. He's been so good. And so to me, like, you mentioned that core three, Austin, LeBron and AD. The biggest question mark for the Lakers is the two guys in between. The Angela Russell brings a lot of offensive firepower to the table, but you can't play him next to Austin Reeves against good teams.

You're not athletic enough in the back court. Torian Prince has been Darwin Ham's favorite player all season long. He is a bench player. Here's a crazy stat for you. He has started twice as many games this year as he did. the previous three seasons combined. So he's miscast as a starter on this particular team, although they just recently moved him to the bench.

Your opinion there, that bench length, they have all these guys like Brewy, Hachemura, and Jared Vanderbilt are really good, but they can't really play on the perimeter on both ends the floor the way they need. And so bringing in somewhat like a Dejante Murray, another guy that they wanted last summer that they didn't get, who I know they're looking for again this year is like a Bruce Brown,

or even like a smaller move on the margins with a team like Brooklyn. for something like Royce O'Neill and Dorian, Finney Smith. Getting quality NBA starters at the two and three will give them their best punchers chance. But at the end of the day, Colin, like, is Denver just better than everybody? Because that, I think, is what's causing a lot of the reticence here is whether or not they can even beat them. I talked about this on the Her today. If you look at the history of the NBA, teams have been very even. Those Utah-Chicago series very even.

What was the difference? Michael hitting key shots. Spurs Dynasty was largely Duncan Kidding. hitting key shots. Shaq and Kobe beat the Blazers in game seven on a series of great shots late. Lakers, I would argue, were outplayed for much of that series, trailed in several games. So if you look at the history of the NBA, the best player wins. It's not always the best bench, Denver's bench is average. It's not always the best support system. Michael Porter in the finals, he's been such a hit and miss up and down player. Yolkis just makes big baskets late.

And so I don't think the Lakers are worse than Denver and Boston for any other reason than the best player on the floor. So Boston, I'm going to transition to them in a second. I still have my misgivings about Boston because I don't love their best player as much as I love Denver's or the Lakers or Milwaukee's. But I tend to think the Lakers are the third best team because Yokic is the world's best player. And I do think that a Celtic starting five is really, really good and usually good at home. So let's pivot to the East Coast. We'll come back west because I'm starting to fall in love with the Clippers. And that sentence I've never uttered in my life.

I want to go first. Let's go to Boston. So listen, I know their starting five is great. I don't love Mazula. I think he's a little over his skis at times in big games against us, Bolstra, in big games against Malone. I wouldn't trust him in a big series. I think he gives away a game in a series.

They don't have a bench. I do really like their starting five. I think Porzingis is of just a unique body that's, it's, he's just hard to match up with. He forces you to pay attention to their fourth best player and he's a weird body type. But I see this is that we're trying to convince ourselves to what Tatum is. I know exactly what Porzingis is. Not a great leader, not always healthy, but a very effective score and a unique body type. Drew Holliday, elite score, elite defender, B level score.

Jalen Brown. great athlete, better every year, a little bit of a star ceiling, but an excellent player. With Tatum, it's different. I think people think, you know, listen, next year he's Kobe. And this year he, and I'm like, no, he's never going to be that. That's not his personality. He is an A player, a top eight guy in the league. But he doesn't have a little bit of that kind of get me the ball.

I'm going to be selfish for six minutes. It's not in him. it's why he's a terrific team player. But I think we keep waiting for the next level of Tatum. And I'm like, he's a two-way player, excellent, love him, team guy. But this is what he is. There will be game sixes and sevens when he's on the floor with the LeBroner's and you're like, he's the second best player on the floor.

He's just not that player. Is that an unfair appraisal of Jason Tatum and the Celtics? It's so funny because you can't talk about this with Celtics fans because their record is incredible. They have all these boxes that they're checking, and it's like this looks like the best team in the league, except for guess who their last four losses were against? The Lakers, the clippers, the bucks, and the nuggets.

And specifically, those four games, their offense faltered in every single one of those games. And the bizarre thing with this Celtics team is they have attached their fate to variance. They attempt to the most three-point shots in the league, When they're going and they look awesome, when they're missing, their offense completely stutters and they can be beat by anybody, basically. And even Jason Tatum himself and like, you know, this is the most disappointing thing to me.

He came into this season. He put on more muscle. He's one of the most physically impressive forwards that we have in the league. And he comes into the season, he's posting up more than ever. And then somewhere after like 20 games or so, he stopped posting up as much. And he went all in on this stupid pull-up jump shot, which is now become a half, of his shot diet. This is a crazy stat for you, Colin. There are nine

players in the NBA that have attempted at least 400 pull-up jump shots this year. Okay? Trey Young, a small guard. Shea Gildes-Alexander, a finesse guard. Jalen Brunson, a smaller power guard. Steph Curry, a smaller guard. Devin Booker, a decent

size two guard, but who's not a great athlete. Donovan Mitchell, a good athlete, but he's small. Luca Donchitz, a forward who is more groundbound and doesn't have lead athleticism, and then Anthony Edwards and Jason Tatum. So all these other guys, they do it because they have to. That's how they're in the NBA. And not to mention all of those guys, Trey SGA, Jalen, Steph, Devin, Boehner, Donovan,

Mitchell, Luca Donchage, they're all great at that shot. They get more than a point for pull-up jump shot that they take. The problem is, is Jason Tatum, and by the way, Anthony Edwards has to be lumped in here because he's the same type of guy. Disgustingly good athlete, just a ridiculous athlete who bails the defense out by taking these long pull-up jump shots. And Jason Tatum, about a half of his shot diet is a shot that is worth less than a point, which is his pull-up jumper.

For years now, he's never been able to make it at a high enough clip, yet he is attaching his destiny to it. And it's discouraging because, again, he is 6-9, ripped, freak athlete, can bully people to the basket, do all of this stuff, and he's bailing the defense out more often than not. And like, you know, it's so funny. It used to be like a Tatum's Young. He's figuring it out. Tatum's Young.

He's figuring out. He's going to be 26 in this playoff run. This is usually the time when players figure it out. Now, I don't want to bail on him because I've seen enough like they're in game, you know, five and six against the heat. He kind of looked like he started to figure some stuff out before he got hurt in game seven. It's not over for him by any stretch of the imagination.

But it's just discouraging for a player this deep into his career with the athletic tools that he has to basically cut everyone a break by taking such high difficulty shots that he can't make it a high enough clip to really punish defenses. And between that and then as a team, them leaning so heavily on three-point variants, they've made themselves beatable in a way that a team that talented really should not be beatable. Okay, so I want to go back west to the Clippers, who I saw dismantle the Celtics in Boston from the opening tip. So a couple of nights ago, I'm out. And Lawrence Frank is sitting next to me.

And we just chop it up for an hour. And I said, man, was I wrong on that deal? I said, I hated it. I'm like, oh, yoy, what are you going to do with Westbrook? He went to the bench where he's playing about 23 minutes a night and doing really good things in that 23 minutes. Last night, he had a couple of beautiful passes against the Hawks. Kauai and Polivo's tremendous two-way wings. They've got size, plumly, you know, they've got some size.

But I said, I said, you're a beautiful team to work. watch, the ball movement, they don't have a single player in the top 35 in ball usage, and you can see it. I think they're the most beautiful basketball right now in the league to watch. Jason, the Clippers ball movement, they get a great shot three out of four times down the floor. They get beautiful shots. They have surging offense with like a coffee and a Westbrook off the bench, size, experienced wings, veteran point guard, experienced head coach. And I'm sitting there watching them. I know it's the Hawks, and I know the Celtics probably, no, I'll just give, I'll give them the win over the Celtics. That's a credible win. And I'm watching those two games,

and I'm like, this offense, you can score your way to a title. There's no Tim Duncan in this league now. Like, you can score your way to a title. Yokic is not a great defender. Milwaukee's not a great defensive team. I think we have to take the clipper seriously. I think they're a machine offensively. Westbrook deserves credit and Hardin. Lawrence Frank said right now in his career, all about winning. Most coachable guy. So your takeaway on what you're watching with him. I think with James Hardin, we overestimated, I think, going into that deal, how much, like, his playoff shortcomings really play a role in the regular season, which is they don't. Like James Hardin is still, even last year in Philly, one of the best regular season offensive

engines that you can have in the league. That specifically is of great value next to Paul George and Kauai Leonard because they are both very much tip of the spear type of scores. If you can get them into advantage situations, they can kill people. Paul George has been playing with like a defender closing out at him most of the season this year. And he's so damn good when you give him that type of advantage, right? And just in general, their overall floor organization with James Hardin has just made

offense so much easier. for them, which was interesting because early on, they struggled offensively with James Hardin. That took a little bit of time for them to figure out. Now the offense is clicking in addition to the defense, and now they're beating everybody. The other part of it, too, is when we really look

at the Clippers as a regular season team, they've been more on like the Lakers side in years past, where they're kind of just getting through the regular season. And one of the things that NBA history has told us is Denver Nuggets, one seed.

Warriors before Steph Curry sprained his foot right there with the sons at the top of the West. The Bucks, one seed, the Lakers, one seed, the Raptors, a two seat. The team that is a veteran team that has talent that attacks the regular season with like a real veracity, usually wins the title. And so the clippers, I think, just from the top down, have approached the season with a lot more urgency this year. And I think that that's a big step in the right direction for them. Now, I want to be clear, there's some question marks around in this team. They're 23rd in defensive rebounding.

That's usually a big red flag for the playoffs. They also attempt 26 pull-up jump shots per game, which is the second most in the league. And right now, they're making them at a really high rate. But we've seen what happens when they lost to Denver in the bubble. That's what happened. Their pull-up jump shots went cold, and they didn't really have another punch at that point. But to be clear, all these teams have holes. Boston has offensive issues.

Milwaukee has defensive issues. So it's not like the Clippers issues are the only team. in the league that has that type of red flag. But the way I look at it, it's one last thing on the James Harden front that I think we didn't properly account for. In Philly, he was getting the best perimeter defender every night.

Tyrese was viewed as the secondary option. They're throwing the forwards at Joel Embed. He's getting the best guy on the other team at guarding a perimeter initiator. Who you're throwing your best guy at for a perimeter weapon with the clippers? You're probably throwing it at Kauai. Who you throw in your second best guy at? You're probably throwing it at Paul George.

James Hardin is getting quality matchups every single night. I think just in general, there's lower pressure on him in this postseason. If you actually look back, last season, they were below 500 in the regular season and in the playoffs when James Hardin shot below 40%. They did not have that margin for error in Philly for James to have a bad night. With the clippers this year, they're well above 500 when James Hardin shoots below 40%. there's margin for error. James can go off the reservation and they just keep trucking right along. And so I think they just kind of increase their margin for error. They improve their regular season offensive organization. But once again, it will come down to Kauai and Paul George knocking down pull up jump shots when they get into the postseason.

Yeah. And then Westbrook comes off the bench where he's often the best guard on the floor, you know, when he comes in at the eight minute mark. He's only playing like 23 minutes a night. But he's, first of all, he's always been an energy guy. I've never worried about that. But I think he really, he deserves credit. He just said, listen, Carmelo really struggled to adapt to his role off the bench for like three years. Westbrook's like, I'll do it. And it's, I mean, when Terrence manager fourth best starter in the starting five, you're like, that's a good team. And I think it's a really brilliant point. They're a little bit of a matchup issue.

So because Kauai and Paul George are very similar, I think Paul's the most underrated player in the league. He gets this whole playoff P, and then you go look at his playoff numbers. They're not bad at all. They're not bad at all. So I think he's a really underrated player. And he and Kauai are very similar players. So you have to pick your poison. And if you start looking like the other night,

and Kauai is still such an effective player because of his hand size down low. He's really a problem. He's so strong. Paul's more of a pure perimeter player. Kauai can go inside. I think they're just a matchup problem. I think they're a matchup problem with Westbrook off the bench. and I love watching them play.

So let's go back east of the Knicks. So I watched the entire game, Lakers Knicks. Now, OG didn't play in Randall. But, I mean, the Lakers beat the Celtics without LeBron and AD. So Julius Randall shouldn't be the difference. I think Grimes was out. But my takeaway on the Knicks is this. First of all, I always thought Jalen Brunson was a 1A.

Maybe he's a 1. 27 a game. I love his leadership, his IQ, his toughness. I think he's the best Knicks sent Ewing. It was never a huge Carmelow fan. Didn't give you anything on the second. on the defensive end and a little bit selfish, wouldn't step back and hit threes for years.

He just got stubborn on the twos. So if Brunson's an A, I do believe you need a very strong two. I think OG and Randall are threes, good threes. And at the end of that game, if Brunson's not hitting, forget Randall. Because Randall would be slowed down by AD. He's not getting any cheap points. Ad is the best low post defender in the game. And I look at the Knicks, and what I've seen Jason in the last three years,

years with them is patience. And part of me is like, just go get a two. And then part of me is like, no, that's the Knicks. You've been desperate, Amari Stademeyer. You always reach on people. Is there a player in the league, if not this trade deadline, next trade deadline? Because I think they need a two. So address if you think the Knicks do. If Brunson's not hitting late like he wasn't against the Lakers, boy, they go dry fast. I mean, they go dry fast. Now, Randall didn't play, but I don't think OG or Randall are elite scores per se. Is there a guy in the league that you say, you know what? I thought it was Carl Anthony Towns. I was kind of in that for a while. Is there a guy that you would like for that role for them?

Patience is the perfect way to put it because they could have jumped on Donovan Mitchell. And now, it's one of those things where it's at the time of the trade, we didn't realize Brunson was this good. So like, maybe internally they were like Brunson's our guy. And maybe that was some of the reasoning behind it. But the point is, is waiting ended up being smart because then Jalen Brunson popped. And now they can kind of be more patient in terms of waiting for who that next guy is. I thought the OG and Anobie trade was genius because it didn't waste any sort of super legitimate asset in terms of their pursuit of an eventual star. I think one of the reasons why that Laker game looked the way it did is the Knicks are very much like a physically imposing team.

they are very much like a power, beat you up for 48 minutes, classic Tom Thibodeau type of team, right? And when you take OG and Julius out, they just become small really fast, especially with Mitchell Robinson out of the lineup because he's been injured, although he might come back before the end.

But I mean, this won't come as any secret to anybody who's listened to you and me talk about this before, but we're both really high on Jalen Brunson. And I think like, I think Jalen Brunson has entered into that conversation with the best guards in the league. Like, I think he's just on that here.

We're on an. extended stretch now where he not only that he's improving and like to take it even a step further look at the playoffs last year he's straight up outplayed donovan mitchell head-to-head in won a series frankly jason i think he's a better player than donovan mitchell he's not quite i don't think he's quite i shouldn't even say this anymore i got it i got to get over this i think he's a better leader i think he plays uh with a very steady temperament i know exactly what i get from jalen brunson every game I watch him. Donovan, I get stretches where he just like forgets his teammates. I think Brunson is a top, you can name it, but I think he, New York, loud, he's classic Villanova,

tunes out the noise, coachable, leader, grown up, defends. Like, I'm sorry, but I have, I think he's terrific. I love him. To Donovan Mitchell's credit, he's having the best season of his career as well. The calves are literally the two seed. He's having the best defensive season he's had of his career. So I want to give Donovan Mitchell some credit, but I agree with you. Jalen Brunson is a better basketball player than him. But then he also went toe to toe with Jimmy Butler. The reason why they couldn't beat the heat last year was Julius Randall was a complete non-factor in that postseason run. Now, in his defense, he was hurt. He had hurt his ankle right before the playoffs and was pretty beat up throughout that playoff run. But to your point, the Knicks have already shown us they can

make some noise with just Jalen Brunson. So you can imagine what a number two would do for them. Now, the question is who? The guy that I know that they've been waiting on is Joel Embed, but I do get somewhat concerned about with his injury history now. Like here we are again with him, with his knee struggling to make it through a regular season. But I think Joel Embed is a guy they've had their eyes on.

I think if the, if the Lakers just absolutely like floundered this year, like just an absolute disaster. end of the season. I put like a like a five percent chance that someone like LeBron could potentially either opt out of his deal this summer and signed there on like a mid-level exception or opt in and do the James Hardin where basically you opt in and ask for a trade and then try to do that. Because I look at LeBron James is basically even at this phase of his career, just a way better version of Julius Randall, which kind of is a shoeing fit to that position. You know what I mean? So like, but I think I think when it comes to with to the next patience has been the name of the game.

Jalen Brunson has bought them the ability to be good while they wait for the right guy. But at the end of the day, there's no reason to jump at anything unless it is the, I wouldn't trade for a single guy unless he was better than Jalen Brunson. It literally is that simple to me. Yeah, I think Brunson's the future of the Knicks. And, you know, there's a lot of people that are, you know, you hear this. I think it was said about Jalen Brunson. He's a little guy.

You don't win championships with little guys. and the NBA is getting bigger. I mean, there's a certain recent formula size in the league. But I got to tell you, as the league gets younger, I think there's an increasing value in maturity and leadership as the league gets younger. It's why LeBron is so valuable. And I think Tatum in New York, you can get lost in that city. I mean, that should, that city eats guys up.

If you're not, I mean, I remember guys like Jeremy shot. I mean, that's why the great, Jeremy Shockey was a great New York giant, just not ready for the city quite, right? If you go to the history of New York, go look at their stars. Jeter, Aaron Judge, Eli Manning, what's the theme? Go home, all about the sport, grownups with the media, good background, adult, you know, relationships with family. It's funny, Jeter, close to his family, Eli Manning, Brunson's dad in the NBA, Aaron Judge. A lot of times they're small town guys. If you come to New York as a star, A-Rod, you're a big free agent, and you get all this expectation it eats you up, Jalen's the opposite.

Cast off for Dallas, all he has to do is prove stuff like Villanova. He is your classic. I mean, Eli Manning went to Ole Miss. Jeter struggled in the minor leagues. Who's Aaron Judge? He's from Fresno. New York has a prototype. You're a little overlooked, undervalued, good.

background, family college. I think that's so, the league's getting so young that these older players that can bring maturity to me, Jason, I mean, it's just, it's like, it's like I say about LeBron. It's like LeBron, it could be a, you know, he's like a coach general manager star on the floor. He's thinking about who am I, who should I have relationships with, who can I elevate, who should be on the floor with me. I mean, he's thinking through every, possession and every game. I don't know. I just can't say enough about Brunson. I think he is New York's next star. I love him. I think he's the best quarterback in that city. To his credit, too, like, he signed up for this. Like the Mavs, it was a little different in the annual value,

but the total contract value that the Mavs offered him was pretty close to what the Nix offered him. He straight up said, I want it. I want the pressure. I want, like, he signed up for what New York brought to the table, and he's not just thrived in that environment. He's completely exceeded expectations. We have a couple of big Knicks fans that help produce hoops tonight. And I talk with them about this behind the scenes. And it's crazy how that one singular signing transformed the entire landscape of the Knicks future. Because they got, like, think about Jalen Brown just signed a deal where in the final year he's going to make like 70 million.

Okay. And Jalen Brunson's making in the 20s. And he's giving you superstar production. Like, it's crazy what that one move has done for that franchise. Looking for a Super Bowl 58, Draft King Sportsbook has you covered. New customers can bet the big game, bet just five bucks. That's it, five bucks, and get $150 bucks in bonus bets. Instantly download the Draft King Sportsbook app.

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terms and responsible gaming resources. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking.

What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jay and I'm Alex English Each episode we pick it here unpack what went down And try to make sense of how we survived it Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill Waxing all about crack in the 80s

To be clear, 84 is big to me Not just because of crack I'm down to talk about crack on day But just so y'all know At this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack So I'm starting to see that there's a through line We also have AIDS on the table right now

So Thank you for finishing that. sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart

Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's go back to the West Coast and the Warriors. Clay Thompson, end of games being benched. Kaminga now is starting to really play well. Not exactly sure why it took so long. Did Chris Paul start

the unlocking, his Steph Curry? I don't I don't know. A lot of times we forget these guys come into the league at 19. It just takes a long time to get your footing. I don't care if you're a podcaster, a broadcaster, a basketball player. It's just a lot of reps. You've got me on a treadmill in games. So I've said before, I would move everybody, but Steph and Draymond, and I think I'm going to add comminga to that. So look at their current state.

Can they make a move? is, do you disagree? Would you, I mean, nobody's moving staff? Would you move Dremont? Would you move Comingo? What's the future look like for them? So it's funny because like a month ago, it was leaning heavily towards the Cominga trade.

To give you an idea of just how crazy this Caminga stretch is, he had never in his entire career at back-to-back 20-point games, ever, not once. And then he notched off like eight of them in a row. Like, he in his last 10 games is averaging 25 points on 61% shooting from the field. He's on an incredible run, flashing like true superstar upside. And so like a month ago,

I was actually pitching on my show. I was like, call the Nets and be like, here's Jonathan Caminga, Andrew Wiggins, and Moses Moody, give me McHale Bridges, like a legit number two for Steph and Dorian Finney Smith. That way we have some two really versatile

two-way forwards to put between Draymond and step and Clay and go make another run at this thing. Camagas made that not an option anymore. Like he's just so, he's so damn good. that you can't afford to let go of that upside. Here's the problem.

He's 21. So like, we talked about last year in the finals, Michael Porter Jr. is 25, and he struggled on that stage. It is a, it is very much a man's game when you get to the later rounds of the NBA playoffs. And so here's the thing. Like, I feel more sure than ever that Kaminga has star upside, but I also, everything about NBA history tells me that he's not going to push Steph into title contention this year either. And so they're kind of in this weird thing where it feels like a gap year in a lot of ways because they can look to make a move.

I know they've looked to move Andrew Wiggins. I'm sure they've looked at all these sorts of ancillary moves. And they may still make a move for like a Dorian Finney Smith from the Nets and just like a throw like Moses Moody and another one of their smaller contracts that way for a veteran Ford. They might call Orlando and get a backup center or something along those lines like a Wendell Carter Jr. Who knows? But none of those guys are really transforming their outlook within the scope of. this season. I think, I think like in a lot of ways, especially with Steph only being 35, you, and Steve Kerr basically said this in, in his presser the other night. He goes, we're not going to get anything better in the trade deadline than Chris Paul coming back to

shore up the bench, then Gary Payton coming back to shore up their perimeter defense. And then Jonathan Kaminka's rise is an influx of talent in its own way. And they're actually starting to trust him a little bit more at the end of game. Steph in a big possession against Brooklyn last night just threw the ball to Kaminga in the post and got out of the way. And he drew a foul, got to the foul line. He's actually been really gifted at getting defenders out of position and getting to the foul line this year. So like it's weird because in a weird way, it kind of turns this year into a gap year because I don't think they have enough. But Kaminga's upside is more than enough to make up for that in the big picture. Yeah. And I mean, again, he's 21. I think we

forget college football players come with three to four years. They're on a college campus. These kids, you put them in the NBA, they can't go to the hotel lobby bar. They're kids. And then you bring them in, Jason, and they're not getting any real game time minutes. So they're not getting, they're not, you know, the NFL, even a rookie who's kind of a miss. He's on the field. He's on special teams. So you can only do so much with practice in your eight preseason games.

So I have a soft spot for like the commingas, when especially they run a system, that catch and react system, that is not for 19-year-olds. Like it's just, it eats people up. So to me, Kamingas always looked the part. Length, twitchiness, vertical, hungry. It's just a matter of time. Wiseman, I always thought was a weird fit. I don't think Kamingas a weird fit at all. I think he fits.

I just think he's a kid. And this is, I mean, you're talking about a sophisticated offense that's almost European, the way it plays. It's functioning. I mean, DeAngelo Russell came there and had years in the league. They spit him out. They were just like not interested. The guys that have worked, Iggy. Bogot. You know, like older Wiggins, older veteran players that can come in and find a spot. So I'm glad to see sort of comminga flourishing because I do think he looks the part. I think he's a really special athlete. Let's go back east to the Sixers. I'm zigzagging here, but for our podcast audience, I want both coasts. I don't want to bore you with too much left or right coast. So I defend the NBA on the Joel Embed injury. First, it was random. A guy fell on his knee. It happens. Secondly, the NBA.

didn't want to create this structure where you have to play 79% of your games. They didn't want to do it. They created it because when the TV contract is up, advertisers came to them and said, yeah, it would be nice if Janus was available for the Saturday night game. We're paying, you know, $800,000 a commercial. And it became sort of a three-year load management pattern, which there's no data to suggest that it makes you better. We've learned that this year, the load management's a lot of nonsense.

So the league says, okay, we're a players league, but we needed to play more games. So, you know, you can argue, well, Embedd shouldn't have been playing. But Embedd missed his first two years because of injuries. He's had chronic injuries, as many bigs do. It was going to happen. He's been hurt every year. So I'm not going to blame the league on this. But we got into this discussion the other day, and the name I threw out, because I'm old, somebody said,

who is Embed if he never wins a title? Because all the bigs have dominated. I watched my first NBA game in 72 with Wilt. titles, Kareem titles, Shack titles, Akeem titles, Duncan, big titles. And all of a sudden you're like, okay, is a Ewing Bob Lanier, who again at my age was a dominant big, showed up in Bud Light or Miller-like commercials, whatever it was. But I think that's what M. Bede is. I think you have to look at him like Ewing. And Ewing got to two finals. You have to look at M. Bid and say, listen, injuries, weird teammates, but I can't make him a top 30 player ever. He statistically great.

He's the closest thing to Shaq. But for Biggs, you know, in a sport where you have a genetic advantage, you're 7-2. Like, I'm going to hold you kind of accountable for trophies. They've never been to the conference finals. We always bang on quarterbacks that don't win Super Bowls, but there's limitations on what you can do with 22 guys on the field. I want my bigs to win trophies. Is that a fair criticism of MBE? He's not a top 30 player. He's just a top 30 talent.

Yeah, well, he was having one of the best regular seasons that we've ever seen before he got hurt this year. But like, he was also having one of the best regular seasons we've ever seen last year. And then the knee started to break down, got to the postseason, and his jump shot started missing, and then all of a sudden everything kind of fell off for him. He kind of reminds me of what. that conversation we were having earlier involving Jason Tatum and Anthony Edwards, where he has attached a good amount of his success to jump shooting.

Like, to Nicola Yokic's credit, most of his shot making is like little push shots and hook shots that are around the basket, which have more like playoff, you know, resiliency, so to speak. Like, it just translates better to that phase. Like last year, Joel and beat, knocked down all those little face-up jab step jumpers in the regular season. And then he couldn't make him over Al Horford. And all of a sudden, the bottom fell out for him. So, like, I think, but I think it's important to acknowledge the injuries. And some of that's outside of his control.

Some of that also is kind of historically, you know, not exactly the most shocking thing in the world for a player his size to kind of encounter some recurring injuries on that front. I think the tougher question is, as it pertains to the NBA regular season, is like, you might have to super load manage Joel Embed, now on. You might have to literally hold him down to 50 games in a season and never let him play more than three times in a week or do whatever it is you've got to do to maintain his knee because if the issue is he's hurt every year in the playoffs, then you have to find a way to get

him there. You have to find a way to get him there. And you know what? That might involve not chasing 70 points against the spurs. That might involve taking more nights off along the way. And like, you know, as far as the 65 game limit thing goes, because our colleague, Dremont Green came out critical of it the other day too. To me, it's kind of misdirected criticism in the sense that, like, I think a limit like that makes some sense. It's an award.

It's a regular season award. You should participate in the regular season if you're going to get that award. The bigger issue is if you don't let the press affect your salary, take that part out. That's the part I don't understand. Make it so that the people voting on the award aren't directly affecting your ability to negotiate your salary. That's where the issue is because I want players to play more frequently, but I don't want them to play on a bum knee for money. That's where it

becomes an issue. So here's my thing, Jason, if I said to you, listen, I'm not going to screw with your base salary, Jason, at the volume. I'm not going to screw with your fame, your personal life. I'm not going to screw with your social media money, your shoe money. But your bonuses, You have to hit 88 podcasts a year. I don't think that's outrageous. I mean, if Fox came to me, Colin, we're not going to school with your salary, your social, the volume. But that $600,000 bonus a year, you got to work 211 days on the year.

That's all the NBA is saying. We don't want to touch any of your money. And these guys now make social, shoes, overseas advertisements. You're not getting the bonus. You're not getting the plaque money. We're out on that. I think that's incredibly, incredibly reasonable. Okay, now, this isn't a, because I love the NBA, and I now, I pivot every year, early, I would say mid to late January.

I kind of pivot to the NBA. And I just, I'm so deep into college and pro football stuff, I just can't do it. Of course. And so over the last, I would say two weeks, now I'm watching a game a night, sometimes two a night. So two things can be true. as a sport in America gets more international, the quality of the sport is better. But it doesn't help attendance or ratings because the sport becomes less domestic and less recognizable. So hockey and baseball and now the NBA are much more international, arguably best players now, international players.

Certainly in the NBA, we're on a heater now about four or five years, all the MVP, SGA, Luca, MB, Janice, Wembe by next year late. Okay, so Yokic. So that I don't worry about the NBA in terms of stability, aesthetic. Some have criticized the way it looks. I don't worry about that. Playoffs come, mid-range basketball comes right back. Guys need buckets.

But I do think in terms of ratings, I think the NBA to get the $75 billion they want is going to have to spread it out. it'll be less dependable on significant one big significant network it's getting more international and unless you follow european leagues which people don't unless they're diehards you're not going to really see them in march madness they're going to go to bad teams finally make an imprint in the playoffs wemby by year three now wemby again is is already iconic it feels like but that the nba will be less viewed going forward. The basketball will be better. The playoffs will be intense. But it will be thin. It will be international like hockey and baseball. I mean, hockey looks so much better today than 10 years ago. It's so much faster. I mean, baseball's insane. Otani is significantly better than Babe Ruth. The quality of the NBA's, it's off the hook. It's just, I mean, the idea, the reason you can't stop anybody is because seven footers can pull up for threes. You have to defend them. So there's no big. in the paint and you don't have a hand check so you can't stop anybody. There's a real last night, Hawks Clippers.

It's 300 points. Guys, we're trying. There's nobody in the basket because the bigs are. So much still. The Plumley is a rare guy that doesn't shoot a three. It's like when you see Plumley, it's like, oh, a 1980s player. I can guard the basket. So the way I look at the NBA, I do worry about if we're going to talk about ratings,

I just think in a more distracted society, it's not going to be a great ratings league. it's going to be a great talent league. Is that a reasonable appraisal going forward? Yeah, I 100% agree with you. I actually think, I think they could lose ground even on those specific TV ratings numbers because I think attention span is getting less and less. And the league is becoming more and more of an inventory sport. Like they're adding the in-season tournament.

They're adding the play in tournament. It is very much like you're not getting the, I saw the number from the AFC championship game. It was like half a Super Bowl. You know what I mean? It's like you're not getting those kinds of numbers from an NBA slate where it's like you, the Lakers play the Nuggets. TNT

major game on Thursday. Kind of a big game too. Like the Lakers are on a three game winning streak. Like they could, they beat Denver on Thursday. It kind of changes the tone and tenor of their season in so many different ways. They also could lose by 40 and it could be nothing because that's just the reality of the way the NBA season

is set up. And so to me, I look at it is I look at it more optimistically just in the sense that I don't ever really see the NBA as being the huge gigantic rating draw in a singular contest the way that the NFL is. It is an inventory sport. And I think that expands to the global potential too. Just the ability to earn, you know, little bits and pieces of income from a ton of different sources rather than these big singular events, if that makes sense. Yeah.

And I also, I feel, you know, the people, a lot of the. the people are intellectually dishonest. If you don't like the NBA, keep it to yourself. I love the NBA, and my criticisms are based on, I love it, here's what I see. So I've watched the same number of NBA for as long as I can remember. I watch football until about mid-January, February starts, I start getting into it, and I'll take a vacation for a week after the football season, where I'll kind of unplug from sports, I come back, and I'm into the NFL free agency in the NBA, and I'm watching a game or two every night. So I've watched, and I think the quality is off the hook.

But I do think international players have a couple of advantages. They get into those academies and play against older men early. They don't have the distractions of our domestic players. You know, they don't. They're just over there in Lithuania working on hoops, playing against older men. They don't have the social media platforms like we do over here. They have them, but they're not, I mean, America's different. You know, it's just we're so star-strung.

Yeah. So they have, and so our guys come in distracted. I mean, a John Marant, Zion, they're stars when they're like 19 years old. Meanwhile, Wembe can come in here and frankly, kind of hide, except for diehards. Yonah sort of hid for four years. Yonkich absolutely hid for five. Yes. So our guys can't hide.

Johnmerant comes in. He's a star. Zion's a star. So I think there's some advantages to be in the international player. I don't think the AAU system big picture makes our players better. I think it makes them something. I'm not sure what it is. Steve Kerr, guys like that.

But I don't think the NBA, they're going to get their money. We all need content. We all need content. I just saw Fox ESPN. Warner Brothers just started a new streaming service. So it's like, listen, the games are going to be played. And the reason they're doing that so they can afford other sports to go up against Apple and Amazon. But I think the league's fine.

But I think what's happened, Jason, is everything outside of the NFL is niche. By the way, everything in Canada outside of hockey is niche. Everything in England outside of the English Premier League is niche. You just have to own it. It's okay. Every country has the sport. Cricket is the national pastime in England. Nobody watches it.

It's a soccer country. So I think the NBA is in great shape because I do believe, just like a podcast or a radio show, if your content's good, you're fine. Whatever's happening to the platforms, the content of the NBA, is really good. So it's fine. It's built for social media. The highlights are completely insane.

It can be digested in smaller portions. As a matter of fact, like, to your point, it's like the NBA's awesome at everything except for the big singular TV event. That's kind of like their biggest weakness in so many ways, even extending into the NBA playoffs.

You and I watched the Lakers last year, literally deliberately punt games in the playoffs. They went through Memphis and Golden State in the exact same pathway. They were like, win game one, who cares game two, win game three and four, who cares game five. There's just so much less urgency on a night-to-night basis. And I don't even think that can be recreated. It's not possible. I mean, the NFL's urgency extends into the regular season.

It's the craziest thing. It's appointment television. All my family and friends, very few of them watch NBA basketball. All of them watch the NFL. It is so much more culturally resonant. And my thing is like, I'm not of the opinion that the NBA should even be compared to the NFL. The NFL is like an entirely different entity. But the NBA in and of its own kind of self is succeeding in a lot of different ways.

And I think it's getting better. I think you mentioned the playoffs, when you get to the playoffs and things kind of get better. That's the interesting thing to me is like officiating to me is one of the bigger issues in the NBA. And then we get to the playoffs and they kind of get it right. You know, so like, so like even on that front, I feel like I'm kind of nitpicking. So like, I'm generally an NBA optimist. I'm just a realist in the sense that they'll never, ever compete with the NFL. Well, listen, I work, I'm at FS1.

It's number two to ESPN. It's a very good life. There's so many advantages to not being the NFL. The scrutiny in the NFL game to game is insane. They flush out seven coaches a year. I mean, a quarterback basically gets to Thanksgiving of a second year. And if you're not good, upstairs, they're moving on. I mean, Zion has had a weight issue for four years, and they're still in on him.

So there's advantages of being two. A lot of people at Pepsi made a lot of money. I think, to your point, I don't think you worry about anything other than I will say. I've always believed that college basketball has a place in the NBA. I think you can kind of get you, they, I wouldn't know Zion without him. It's for the casual fan. You meet these stars in March. And it's like, oh, my God, I want to watch Zion.

He doesn't play at Duke. He's just another. Jalen Green. I mean, the average guy has no idea who Jalen Green is. So my only knock on Adam Silver is I wish he would just say to college basketball, hey, it's kind of a microwavable version of us. You get three weeks where everybody watches the sport. Then you wrap your arms around Zion and college basketball. And you can get some of those college basketball people that feed into the NBA.

I've never thought the, listen, you can make an argument. The more popular your college sport is, the more popular the league is. So college football is number one NFL, number two is college basketball NBA, number three is the college world series baseball four, and then college hockey. Right. Like so, I mean, if you look at it, the more popular your minor league system is, it absolutely is a push into your major league platform. So I don't know.

I think the NBA is fine. Did you like the in-season tournament? I thought it was great. I don't understand the pushback. I thought it was so good. It was amazing. Adam Silver's batting 1,000. So first of all, if you're upset about Taylor Swift or purple basketball courts, get a life.

Like, who gives a shit? Secondly, is there's no question when I watch those games. I mean, LeBron was, first of all, he shot 57%. He was all in. So when your stars buy in, I'm like, okay, LeBron's, I mean, the Lakers played like it was playoff basketball. LeBron in his 20th year or 19th year. So, again, people are nitpicking. I thought the in-season tournament, I don't see it's a home run, stand-up double, quality of it.

I mean, Indiana was playing their arse off. Lakers were playing their butt. Those players. They felt like playoff games. I thought they bought into it way more than I would have. First, I thought this is Hokie. And then I watched like my second game on the court and I'm like, these guys are playing. This is like, what was it, December. I'm like, or November, I'm like, these guys are all out.

Yeah, it was exactly. the tent hole that the regular season needed because like the NBA season, it's kind of like you go through two thirds of it and then there's the trade deadline, then there's like the stretch run, but it's almost like a big sink in the middle there. And sometimes like Colin, I don't blame you for not

watching the NBA in December and January. It can be, not only can it be a little boring, it can also be, it can also give you a lot of really fake results. Like the Utah Jazz went and won a bunch of games in a row in the middle of January. You know, like, like this is the time of year where like

youth and athleticism kind of rises to the surface in so many different ways. And the NBA needed something, a tent pull between the start of the season and the trade deadline. And that's what the in-season tournament served as is a breakup of monotony in so many different ways. Also, the NFL's taken away their number one marketing day Christmas to some degree. So the NBA is like, okay, if you're going to take that away or minimize it, then we're going to create an in-season tournament before you get to your tournament. So it's all, listen, the NFL has always been playing around with the calendar. I think, I think Adam said, okay, you're going to F us on Christmas.

And we're going to create urgent, by the way, some of those playing games got numbers. These commissioners used to be buddies. Now it's now you're all fighting for Amazon money. Nobody's buddies anymore. So the NFL moved free agency, moved into Christmas. And the NBA says, so we're going to create urgency before. I thought it worked. And also, the NBA has always been about the trade deadline on.

It's in my, I mean, everybody's at 50 games now. So you get to about game 5560, everybody tightens everything up. The rotations get tightened up. You coach with an eye on the playoffs. I think we're going to have a great stretch run. I think Boston and Denver are the best teams. Neither has a good bench. And I think there's some Milwaukee's, Lakers, Phoenix, Oklahoma City, Minnesota.

Can't wait to watch it. Jason Timph, hoops tonight, 50 minutes. We'll do more of this stuff. It's great seeing you. You're crushing. You're going to see a lot of Jason stuff on my feed now as I kind of go heavy football and now the NBA is getting good. And I'll tell you all, say what you want. Give the Clippers a chance. If you're listening to this podcast, it is beautiful basketball. It is no high usage rate, tremendous movement. Next time we'll talk Oklahoma City Thunder. We're not ignoring Denver, Minnesota. But watch the Clippers play if you're a casual. That is good basketball. That is beautiful basketball.

Ball movement, shot makers, shot creators, mid-range post inside, transition, it's great. Final thoughts? Paul, I just wanted to say congrats to you on three years with the volume. It's crazy because like a year ago, you and I had a similar conversation about how crazy the growth has been. And even in the year's sense, it's been even crazier. I like, I've been, I just have to say, obviously,

a part of it has been an honor, but like getting to see what you've built and from what it was at the beginning to what it is now, it's just incredibly impressive. And I just wanted to say congratulations. Well, you're really valuable to us. And I mean, I think the thing we lead in, we lean into some gambling, NBA, NFL, and strong opinions. And you're such a unique voice in basketball. You know, we got Jenkins and Jones who culturally are so important to us, Draymond Green, the player. and I don't think there's anybody in the country that breaks it down like you. I think you give people a really data-driven, smart, former player context that matters. It's not, you know, listen, I get called a hot take guy, but I've said before I can't watch every game.

I've got to cover all these sports, and I'm going to give you broad views of stuff. You really dig deep. I think it's necessary, and I think you're the best in the country at it, and I love it. So good to seeing you, buddy. Good to see you, too, Colin. Looking forward to next time. Hoops tonight, Jason Timp, Money at the Volume. The volume.

Thanks so much for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, take a moment, rate and review. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes,

creators and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.