The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - Patriots “Dynasty”, Baseball’s Decline, NY Jets Circus, Aaron Rodgers “The Contrarian”

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

Colin’s joined by legendary sports writer and New York Times bestselling author Ian O’Connor! Colin starts by asking Ian about his experience writing about the Patriots in light of the hit documentary “Dynasty” (3:30), how “spygate” will impact Bill Belichick’s legacy (8:00) and how the Super Bowl loss to the Giants affected the team (12:00) They talk about the reasons behind football pulling away from baseball in the past 30 years as the most popular sport in America (14:30) and why the demographics of baseball fans could be an omen of a bleak future for the MLB (20:00). They react to Mecole Hardman’s comments about the circus behind the scenes of the NY Jets (24:30) and dive into Aaron Rodgers… the subject of Ian’s upcoming book and Colin asks Ian about Aaron’s contrarian personality (31:30)  They also discuss New York’s “star drought (36:45) and the state of the newspaper industry for sports writers (45:00) Finally, the circle back to Aaron Rodgers underrated leadership qualities (50:00) and a tense situation Ian experienced on a flight to interview Aaron (54:00) (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates! #Volume #Herd See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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It takes 90 seconds. Last-minute tickets, lowest prices guarantee. Well, we bring him on a couple times a year, Ian O'Connor, four-time New York Times bestseller, 20-time first-place winner, national writing contest, New York Post. He's written The Captain. I loved the rise and reign of Mike Sheshefsky, author of Belichick. I was thinking of you flying back from Boston the other day, so I was flying from Boston on vacation. I came back to L.A. and I watched a couple episodes of Dynasty. Now, that's Jeff Benedict's book, and that is, you know, it's understood. in the industry that that's a very craft favorable interpretation of dynasty. Yours was not. It was like, and this is not a criticism of Jeff, but everybody needs sources. Everybody needs windows. Are you at all bothered in all your years? I mean, to get access to Coach K. You know, there's certain places you got to go. Is it a hard line for you when you want, because you write these long, 150 sourced books.

minimum. Do you ever have a problem, a balance of, okay, this is starting to feel like a little too Belichick, a little too craft, a little too Brady? Is that something you struggle with? Sure. Yeah, I think I struggle with that in every book I've done, in long pieces I've done for different outlets I've worked for, Colin. And you just talk to as many people as possible. And if you do that, it sort of happens organically that it balances out, the negative and the positive and sort of forces you not to lean too far one way, either way. So the problem is when someone is a collaborator, and I'm not sure if Robert Kraft is a collaborator in this project

with that book that Jeff wrote, and he's really good. I have not seen these episodes yet. I plan to at some point when I get a chance. But yeah, it's a struggle with something you always have to be aware of. but again, I think if you are contacting a lot of sources on both sides of the aisle, it will happen organically where you're not favoring one party over the other too much. Yeah, there's an argument Bill Simmons tweeted the other day, you know, about, God, the pettiness by the crafts has no ceiling. Yeah, I mean, I guess I've worked with enough billionaires. I mean, they've been my bosses my entire life. corporations is they get the final word. Do you view the crafts as petty? They can be. I know that Robert

Kraft wants to be loved more than anyone I think I've ever met. He loves to be loved. And he wants to be in the Hall of Fame. And frankly, I really, and this really bothers him. I'm not sure how Jerry Jones is in the Hall of Fame ahead of him. And Jones hasn't won anything in decades. And Kraft is the guy who hired Belichick. And he has made it clear to a lot of people. And frankly, I've heard this directly from him. And managing Belichick all these years was very difficult. And not many owners could have pulled it off for as long as he did. And Kraft would say he would walk by him in the hallway. And Bill wouldn't even say hello to him. This is a guy he's paying a lot of money to. And so he does deserve credit, I think, that he has not gotten for managing Belichick all these years behind

the scenes. That was not an easy task. He also deserves credit for hiring the guy. A lot of people, myself included, infamously wrote, and other people told him directly in the league office, do not hire this guy. And he did. And so that was the birth of the dynasty really right there. Was that higher? And then, of course, the drafting of Brady.

But, yeah, Robert can be petty. He can be needy. And he's certainly desirous of your affections. And he wants your Hall of Fame support. and ultimately I do think he'll get in and I do think he deserves to get in. You know, it's interesting. Anytime somebody passes, I don't worry much about my obituary, but, you know, I think I've tried to do thoughtful work my entire career, had good days, bad days.

You know, you talk three hours a day for 30, 40 years, you have bad segments, bad moments. But I do think about Belichick, where do we put SpyGate? So, you know, Belichick's like, you know, it's pretty, you know, it's pretty, pretty obvious that I was told this years ago that Mangini told him, Bill, I know what you do. If you tape us with the jets, I'm turning you in. And Bill, perhaps arrogantly said, go for it. There's sort of an omerta feel to Belichick, like, you know, it's part of the club. We got you a job. You don't get this without us. But I was told years ago that Mangini warned him. Bill, I know, I know what's up. I know what you do. Don't tape us. How do you think that, SpyGate, as you, you

you look at Belichick's dynasty his run. Where does it fall? First paragraph, third, fifth, or at all? Well, it's in there. It's certainly in there and maybe the third, maybe the fourth, maybe the fifth. I don't think the first. And frankly, with or without SpyGate, I still think he has six rings. And I hope that came across in my book because it was intended to, if not. And he came out of a culture, Al Davis in NFL as a young coach, a lot of guys were cheating. And Bill was just the last guy to sort of give it up. And he was warned. And I know the Giants always thought going up there for preseason games or regular season games.

They always sort of knew. And I remember Ernie O'Corsey told me he was flattered that Belichick might try to cheat against them. And so, but the old school guys in the league sort of shrugged their shoulders and moved on. And so I think he was the last holdout from that culture and that era in the NFL, like I said, the Al Davis era when a lot of that was going on. And so I do not think it ruins his legacy. I think it is a stain on the legacy, but not a giant one. And of course, after Spygate, Bill ended up with probably, not probably, definitely his best team and his best season. and he just lost a Super Bowl.

And I have this scene in my book. It's one of my favorite scenes. It's after they lost that Super Bowl and the chance to go down as the greatest team ever. I thought he had maybe his finest moment in front of his team. That locker room was absolutely devastated. These were broken crying men because they knew if one of 17 things broke their way

instead of the Giants way, they would go down as the greatest team of all time. And unfortunately, that didn't happen. and Bill faced that team. I got this from three guys in the locker room. And he only spoke for about a minute. But he blamed only himself because he knew he had to coach that team

through one more possession, their pain. And a lot of times when guys like him take responsibility in subtle ways, they'll also deflect it. And well, we could have made more plays or maybe even deflected a little bit to assistant coaches or just we didn't execute. It was none of that.

and I got that from a number of people. It was all about him. I did not prepare you to win this game. This is my fault and I'm sorry. And when he walked out of the locker room, I believe it was Dante Stalworth who told me, it was like he just faded the black. And I ended a chapter that way,

and I thought that was a powerful scene. But after Spygate, after they were discovered, he wanted to, and that team wanted to punish the rest of the league and prove to everyone just how great we are. And if you look at that season, I think it's clearly the best team he ever had. Yeah. And they just couldn't get it done in the end. Yeah.

No, that was portrayed in Dynasty that they were pissed off. They were going to take it out on people. And for the record, they did take it out on a lot of teams. In fact, I remember that year, they lost in the Giants in the Super Bowl. I remember watching the Patriots and Giants play. It may have been the last week of the year, regular season. I was in a bar in New York. I remember this, an Irish bar in New York.

They had played in the regular season. No, or the kind, by the way. There were only Irish bars in New York. I love partying in New York. And I was with my wife, and I remember watching that game and saying at one point, shit, they're having trouble blocking the Giants. Like, this is kind of competitive. This is kind of an interesting game. And then, you know, weeks later, when they meet in the Super Bowl, several weeks later,

they really had trouble blocking them, as in they could not block. them for most of the game. I don't know if they said this in the piece, but they had a bad week of practice at the Super Bowl, the Patriots, and Belichick addressed his team. It was either Wednesday or Thursday. I think it was Wednesday. And he said, guys, we were so bad today in practice,

the Giants are now ahead of us. And they never caught up. But for some reason, receivers were dropping passes. It was just a sloppy week. And I thank Colin that they ran out of gas. They started leaking oil in the playoffs, or even that last game against the Giants. And it just caught up to them that week.

But Belichick told them that Giants have now moved ahead of us this week in practice, and he was right. Ian, Peter King retired this week, and you had a line on social media that when you'd see Peter King walk into a press box, you'd go, oh, shit, which is the ultimate compliment, by the way. And I have a really strong affection for Peter and you. I think both of you are unique. And I posed this to Peter the other day.

Peter loves baseball, but he covers football. And not that he doesn't love football. You also have a great understanding, intellect with baseball, but you also cover football. And I said, and I thought about this. So when I was a kid, I wanted to be, I remember listening to Vin Scully at seven, eight years old and a transistor radio at the coast of Washington. My mom bought me a radio. It was like my friend. You know, as my dad was a workaholic. So that radio, I would listen to baseball and radio,

and I wanted to be a baseball announcer until I was about 23, 24, and then I kind of did local sports. And over some time, I became a football guy. But the scarcity argument can't just be it, because you can go back 100 years. Football's always had fewer games. There is something that happened somewhere in the 70s or 80s, and perhaps it was institutional arrogance, where football just became more and more and more popular. and it is now really made everything else in sports niche. Everything. The NBA feels tiny. March Madness is a blip.

Baseball last week. The big story was see-through pants. I mean, it's really remarkable how insignificant other sports feel in this solar system now compared to the sun, which is in our solar system, the NFL. I think a lot of it is football's always had a feeling. Baseball always had this sort of arrogance, almost like cricket in England, that we're the national pastime. And soccer has this rabid sort of tribal belief that we're always playing catch up. And the NFL operates like that, always adapting, always fighting, always moving. They build a business like an underdog, even though they're an overwhelming favorite.

Baseball's become a massive underdog and sees itself almost above the fray. And I just think institutionally over 30 or 40 years, those decisions and reluctance to adapt has hurt baseball and elevated football. Do you have any long-winded question? What has happened over 30, 40 years? The separation between the two, social currency, television ratings is the Grand Canyon. Is there just one or two things that is a guy who's covering one of the last American cities that lives for baseball in New York?

I think the pace of the game with the NFL, and the fact that you're playing, what, 10% of the games you're playing in baseball. And it allows the fan base to really hone in on every game. And every game matters in the NFL. And it doesn't in baseball. And I used to sit there all the time and watch nine inning games. I have a very hard time doing that now. And even though the game has sped up and I think the rule changes, most of them were good.

And I still have a soft spot for baseball. But I love football. And I... Same. Thursday nights, I don't think if I were commissioner, I would want to get rid of Thursday night football because I don't think they're better to the players. But I have to admit, Colin it.

I love watching Thursday night football too. And a lot of times you get those bad matchups and it's two teams you don't care that much about, but it's still, it's the NFL, it's Thursday night, it gets you closer to Sunday. It's a bridge. And I love watching it. Any chance I get,

it's the closest thing. I hate to say this too, but to simulate combat, and I think that is, that kind of action and the package violence is attractive to people. And it's a great visual sport, particularly if it's snowing, if guys are cold, their chilled breath coming out of their face masks. And it's a great visual sport. It's a lot of action. Every game matters. And in the other sports, particularly baseball where you're playing 162, so many games, a Tuesday night in May just doesn't matter

in the big picture. There is no small picture moments or games in the NFL. And you put all that together, and that's why the NFL has become an absolute monster. You know, culturally, you pointed to something, is that as our society has become more distracted via the iPhone, I don't have, I want, and I'm, listen, I'm 60. So I'm not one of these young kids.

I mean, I can still go work out and not look at my phone. I don't take it to dinner with my wife. Like, I'm not one of these people that live on their phone. I'm probably on it 90 minutes a day and mostly reading stories for the next day's show. But I find myself more distracted. And in order to grab my attention, it's much harder. Now, I'm not one of these headline readers. I like reading columnness.

I grew up with that. But I find myself having to put my phone down. Like, I find myself, okay, this is a five-part Netflix series. Do I have the ambition to sit there with my wife for back-to-back nights? And I do think as society has become more distracted and there's more options, baseball is a harder, it's a harder watch for me. Really is. I agree to Colin. The one thing that gets me through a baseball season where I'm watching a lot of it is my wife. She's a diehard Mets fan. She doesn't like the NFL. She likes college basketball, doesn't like the NBA. But so for her, I sit there and suffer through a Mets season, and we try to watch,

she tries to watch 155 or more games. And I'm there with her and feeling her pain. And sometimes you laugh and a lot of times you cry when you're a Mets fan. And so really for her, I watch it. If she were not there, I just don't know. I check in on the Yankees and watch a few innings and flip over to the Mets for an inning. and I can't watch nine innings of a regular season game on a Tuesday or Thursday night in May. I just can't do it.

But I do it for her because she loves the Mets, which is a terrible thing to do. But you can't help herself. And so I don't know. My son is 27, and they grew up or he grew up with his friends gathering to watch soccer and NFL games. Soccer on Saturday mornings from the Premier League in the UK. and they don't watch baseball. Not one of those kids that he's friends with or grew up with as teenagers watch baseball really at all.

And they didn't gather for the World Series, but they would gather for a big man-new, man-city game on a Saturday morning and also the NFL. And fantasy football has been huge. That generation, I saw my son grow up with it, and his love for the NFL grew and grew and grew and grew. grew through fantasy football. You know, it's really interesting.

I met my wife 17 years ago, Anne, and in New England. And her boys, Josh and Riley, great kids. I noticed this 17 years ago. They grew up in Red Sock territory, Yankee Red Sock territory. And they got up on Saturday morning and Josh, the older of the two, watch the English Premier League. And I remember as a sportscaster, because I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, as you know, And there's a lot of soccer.

Clive Charles University of Portland, the Sounders, the Timbers. Northwest has sort of a European feel a little bit. They always, it's just always been like Georgia O'Connellia, New York, you know, the Sounders, NASL, New York, Minnesota kicks. I mean, you remember that. It was Seattle and Portland have always been big. And I remember watching her oldest son and going, they don't watch baseball. And I was starting to find myself, because I still covered baseball at ESPN, I found myself struggling outside of a Yankee Red Sox series.

I would watch that. And I would go to Fenway once a year, Yankee Stadium twice. I found myself saying, I got to watch this stuff. So I'd watch it when I was working out. I would watch, you know, Mike and the Mad Dog or Maz and Felger in the workout room at my house. I'm like, I got to give baseball 45 minutes. I got to hear discussions on this stuff. But to your point, you know, my kids are much more soccer dribb.

Now, this is interesting. Let me say one thing, too, if you don't mind. When I was a kid playing Little League and I was a Yankees fan, I would put on my Little League uniform sometimes and sit in front of the TV and watch nine innings of Reggie and Thurman and rest. And I would do that quite a bit or come home from my own games and sit in front of the TV, transfixed for three hours, then I'd go to bed. I don't know any kids who are doing that anymore.

And again, they might catch in a few innings here and there, but it's become an older person sport, which is a dangerous thing. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th.

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I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So the football season is over for the Jets and the Giants. And I saw a quote that was so damning with the Jets. So somebody asked McColl Hardman, you know, the kids. kid who went to Kansas City, he goes to New York, it just doesn't work, and he goes back to Kansas City, and, you know, he has a pretty good Super Bowl. Of course he does, right? Of course he does. And, you know, I've been on this for a couple years, and I know you don't probably listen to a lot of sports radio, but I've been on something for two years hard, that the world's changed,

that Belichick is allergic to offense, tone deaf to it, that it's the last 10 to 12 Super Bowl coaches have all been offense, is that overwhelmingly offensive coaches, 75 to 80 percent of playoff teams have offensive coaches. So if an offensive coach loses a great offensive coordinator, there's no chaos. They're fine. McVease can run through them. Shanahan can run through him. Andy Reed can run through him. Sean Peyton. But if a defensive coach loses a sharp OC, it's a problem. And so you have Robert Sala, who I like, and he did play some, I think he coached a little bit of offense at some point in his career. But it was really damning. They asked McCole Hardman about his experience. And I read this and I went, holy crap, this is a bad look.

He said there's no standardized set of offense for the Jets. It's, hey, we've got Aaron. He'll figure it out. He said, there's no question. There are standards and protocols for defense. It's a defensive culture. He goes, offense, we just make it up. And he goes, once Aaron got hurt, it was just not viable.

What are the standards under Nat Hackett who was hired because of Aaron Rogers? And I think there was a belief when the Jets got Aaron that this was kind of, it could be a better version of Fav. And I actually think it's a worse version because I think the Achilles surgery changes everything. They're locked in for another year. And Farrve didn't, you didn't have to bring in people to appease Fav like a Hackett or a Cobb or an Alan Lazzard. it didn't feel, it felt like, you know, Farrv wanted to get out and the Jets landed him, whereas Aaron kind of accompanied the Jets and brought people with him. I look at the offensive line.

I look at Breece Hall, hopefully across his fingers, he's healthy. I look at the offensive pivot by the league and a defensive coach on the hot seat, the impulsiveness of the Johnsons as owners. Like, I don't think it's going to end well for Aaron Rogers. I think it's false hope. That McCull-Hardman bite was just an eye-opener to the circus inside the building. Do you have optimism with the Jets at all? Well, I'm writing a book on Aaron Roder, so I have to have optimism.

It's supposed to come out at the start of the season. So I would like the Jets to defy what you just said. Do I really believe it deep down? I don't know. When my books, I look at my previous subjects and my book comes out, and Derek Jeter, he becomes the first Yankee to get the 3,000 hits. and does it with a home run on a five-for-five day. Belichick, when my book came out, won his six and final Super Bowl. Coach Kay broke John Wooden's record with his 13th Final Four

appearance. So listen, at some point, and everything you said is true. Aaron Riders as a GM, he was not going to be voted executive of the year off that performance, even if he played. But I do think if he played some of those guys, Lazzard certainly would have been better, and Cobb, I think, would have been more useful. And Hackett would have been better. He couldn't be any worse. So that was just being in that building that night when he got hurt, I've just never been in a building where there was that sort of heartbreak in a crowd.

I just, it was unfathomable. But only the Jets. That was an only New York Jet moment. And so here's the thing. And the Red Sox fans before 2004 thought they could never, ever win another World Series. particularly after what happened in 2003, when Aaron Boone walked them off in Game 7, the franchise that had tormented them for decades did it again in 2003.

They come back, they're down in 2003 in 2004, and they win the whole thing. They end the curse of the Bambino. The Cubs in 2016, those fans thought it's never going to happen, and it did happen. So at some point, haunted franchises usually will break through. So is it possible that the Jets had to buy bottom out with this horrific season. Seven and ten doesn't sound terrible, but that was a terrible

season. The only saving grace was beating Belichick, breaking that 15-game winning streak he had against the Jets and sending him out of Foxborough with a loss. Other than that, it was a disaster, and it felt more like 4 and 13. So is it possible they bottom out and they come back and they have the season that they were supposed to have last year this coming season. maybe go 11 and 6 with an easier schedule and lower expectations and win a game or two in the tournament. I think that's feasible. Winning the whole thing, it's going to happen at some point. Hopefully, I think you and I are about the same age.

Hopefully, when we're alive, that will happen. I really want to see that happen. It doesn't have to be this coming season, and it probably won't be. But the New York Jets winning a Super Bowl again for the first time since January 69, for the first time since Neil Armstrong stepped on the moon would be the biggest sports story in my 40-plus years of covering sports in New York, I think. I think it's bigger than Messia in 94. I think it would become bigger than Namath in Super Bowl 3,

although that changed professional football, just because of the meaty age we live in. Just think of how big, if they won at this coming season with Aaron Rogers at age 41 in December, he turns 41, coming off in Achilles. I think that would be the biggest story in my 38 to 40 years of doing sports in New York. All right. I know you have, there are certain boundaries you want to protect on this Aaron Rogers book. Is he willing to talk? Can I ask that? He did talk to me recently. I visited him for a couple hours. And it was very healthy, I think, a respectful give and take. I don't know how he classify it. But yeah, and it wasn't, listen, I would have loved 10 hours with the guy, so it wasn't like full cooperation. This is an unauthorized book. It's my book,

not his. And so it's more like after all these interviews, let's check some facts here. I want to make sure I'm getting things right. And it was a sit down. That was the spirit of it. And I was grateful that he did that. He certainly didn't owe me anything. So I recently did that. And so I think it will be a definitive and fair and honest and accurate account of who he is, why he is the way he is. And I had so many people, Peter King, one of them, the best ever. I think Peter is the best ever that what he does. So he knows Aaron Rogers, but I don't know him. And I think there are so many really smart football people who tell me they don't feel like they've got a firm grasp on who he is.

So that was my objective was to try to explain who he is and hopefully I pulled it off. Let me throw something at you that, you know, years ago, I can remember my dad who was more of a Reagan conservative, you know, it was considered healthy. It could be Abby Hoffman. It could be anybody that pushed back on authority. That was considered sort of healthy. It was mostly left leaners against authority. against wealth, against power. Now, you know, the conservatives would argue we're pushing back against power, and power is not only our government, but it's the media in Silicon Valley, which is there's certainly a point there to be made. When I have tried to do Psych 101 with Aaron Rogers, I've said this on the air. I'm not a psychologist, but he pushed back on his parents

and religion. He pushed back on authority in Green Bay. He has pushed back on the vaccine. He's pushed back on media. He's pushed back. He's a bit of a contrarian that maybe he is, you know, he's, he's our modern day rebel, is that if you look at his personality, what he does is constantly push back on conventional mandates, conventional wisdom, conventional authority. That's my interpretation. He just pushes back on group think. Now, sometimes group think is correct. I think should have taken the vaccine if they were older, right? Kids maybe not as much. Is that a fair or reasonable interpretation of what you're discovering is that, you know, he's never married, no kids, may not, you know, I don't know of his pet situation. He's really an independent guy. He's wealthy,

good-looking older. He's got his worldview. It's a lot like Joe Rogans. They're both talented. But he basically just pushes back an authority. Maybe one of the reasons he's not married. He doesn't want to conform. And that's his personality. That's his id. Is that reasonable? reasonable. He certainly pushes back on an awful lot of fronts. And I think growing up in a very strict religious household is certainly part of it. Maybe the beginning of

when you grow up in a household like that, I think maybe naturally later on. And he goes to Cal, this liberal, global institution, people from all over the world. And he's experiencing different cultures and backgrounds and ethnicities and races.

And he grew up in a town that was overwhelmingly white. And So I think you start to see it maybe a Cal, Cal Berkeley, and I think he starts pushing back maybe against the religious upbringing. And that leads to other pushback. I think that's a reasonable interpretation of the journey of his life and where he is right now. And I think that the one thing about him that I admire, even though I don't agree with everything he says, is he is pretty fearless. He's not afraid to confront opposition and to say unpopular things and to deal with the consequences of those things. And I think that's an admirable trait.

I don't think that he's doing it just for that reason just to push back. I do think he believes in what he says. But I think that's a good read on the journey of Aaron Rogers. And I did ask him some quiet. For instance, when he said I've been immunized, and then he got killed for that later on, of course, when it came out that he did not get the vaccine, and he explained why he said what he said. And he was allergic to an ingredient in Moderna and Pfizer and also concerned about the side effects, the reported alleged side effects of the Johnson and Johnson shot is, why didn't you just say that in August that year when he gave that press conference? instead of saying I've been immunized and sort of misleading people. And I thought his answer to that, which I'd like to say for the book, was very interesting.

Yeah. And because if I were sitting there as a columnist, I don't know how you feel, Colin about vaccines and I got vaccinated. Yeah. But I put myself sort of in the middle on it because I do think it was not quite as effective as it was advertised. And I got COVID twice. And so I said, if you gave that explanation, about being allergic and also being concerned about side effects, I actually, I think that's a reasonable explanation.

I would have accepted it. Unlike Kyrie Irving, who could not play because of the mandate in New York, you could play with that position. And my biggest problem with Kyrie Irving is what he was doing to his teammates, and particularly Kevin Durant, but also to middle and bottom of the roster of players whose careers were being affected and could be elevated by winning a championship.

They had no chance of winning with him not playing. So Aaron Rogers didn't have to deal with that. He was eligible to play with the position of not taking the vaccine. But I think if I were sitting there as a columnist and he gave the explanation he gave months later, I would have thought that was reasonable. Yeah. You know, it's New York sports is really interesting. I was talking about this to a friend. And there's been a convergence of sports and entertainment for 30 years.

It's now it's jet-fueled. We all know it. You know, athletes move to California. They all get production companies. In Los Angeles right now, in California as a whole, but Los Angeles, our coaches are stars. Harbaugh, Lincoln Riley, Sean McVeigh, our quarterbacks are stars. Stafford, Herbert, Shohei Otani, Mukie Betts, Freddie Freeman. You can go down the line.

We've done this a couple of times. We have a Bosa pass rusher in L.A., and they got one in San Francisco. Steph Curry, Draymond Green. The state of California, and specifically, Los Angeles, we go about 20 deep. I mean, Cooper Cup doesn't make the top 18. Like, it's insane. New York right now has Aaron Judge, Aaron Rogers, kind of Jalen Brunson, and it's weird. It's a moneyed city.

it's a major market. It's well capitalized. Like California, it's heavily, there's a heavy burden on taxing. We have better weather. But I got into this discussion, and I've, with Jason McIntyre on my show, we've talked about it on air and off air. New York has been in about a seven, eight year star drought. And I can't explain it. Chicago's going through a lot of the same stuff, Ian. L.A. is not. You know, down. Dallas is not. Miami is not. I don't know if it's taxes, weather. But right now, there is something in New York. I just feel like, I mean, I feel like Jalen Brunson is the most trustable athlete in the city. Like I know his personality, Villanova, he plays defense. I love Jalen Brunson. I think he's terrific. I think he's the heart of that city. He's a hardworking kid, second rounder. But there has been, in your time in New York, has there been a six or seven year period where I just feels like everything is off the rails a little. Not like this. That's a good read too. And obviously, the last championship was what? The major men's sports, the last championship was the Giants in 2011. And the Giants have played a grand total of three playoff games since that Super Bowl victory over the Patriots.

And they got destroyed in two of them. And then, of course, Daniel Jones beat Kirk Cousins on the road a couple of years ago. and that was that. But you're right. And Aaron Judge is homegrown. He was drafted by the Yankees, so it wasn't like they got him. Aaron Rogers was interesting because there weren't a lot of suitors. And he looked at it, okay, I think he looked at it this way. Where could I go where if I win a championship, my legacy could explode. And I could get back into that Brady Stratosphere. And that was the Jets. And so unlike Farr, who didn't want to go to the Jets, got there late. So they really couldn't do a whole lot for him, even if he, demanded pieces to be added. They got him late in that preseason, and he wanted to go to Minnesota anyway. Rogers absolutely wanted New York. So he was the rare superstar of late in sports who thought

New York was a really good idea. I think weather's part of it. No question about it. Taxes. Also, I largely believe the New York media thing is a myth. But I think a lot of athletes still look at that as a factor. And also, Colin, the world is so small now because of the social media age that you don't need New York anymore. You could be a global superstar in Oklahoma City and in Cleveland, wherever. So I think years ago, New York was more appealing to superstar athletes in that context, but you just don't need the big apple anymore to sell your brand and to grow your brand. And that's a part of it as well. in on the action with the Draft King Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA.

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Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people

who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people.

I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill,

waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because. of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack.

So I'm starting to see there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. You know, the newspaper industry, LA Times now has 18 people on staff. We have eight pro teams. That's insane. I mean, high school football in LA is substantial. We have USC, UCLA. I mean, it's a tiny, tiny, a granular sports section compared to, you know, what it was even seven, eight years ago. And you could certainly write books. I mean, you're working on one now. But you still do columnist work. and I know it's not just for income. Do you still like the newspaper part of it? Are you turned off by a lot of the information that's often hijacked from you, ends up on blogs?

Nobody gets credit. For somebody that's been doing this for 40 years at a high level, how do you view your industry? I still actually like holding a newspaper and reading. And it's like I still like holding a book and reading a book instead of reading a book on Kindle. But I don't rage against technology, and I certainly use all those social media tools

to consume information and read. But, yeah, I will always be a newspaper person at heart without question. And so there were very few of us left, and that's fine. That's the way it goes. The industry is entirely different. when I entered it, the goal was to become a columnist. Now, columnists really don't exist in general columnists anyway. They're very few left. And so when I talk to kids coming out of college, and I say, now if you want the most visibility and the most money and you're in the print game,

it's about being a 24-7 insider. Now, if you are a feature writer slash columnist, journalist at heart, you can still do it and you can make a living. But obviously when you look at where the business is right now, it's, well, what you do, you're one of the all-time greats of what you do, Colin. And so very few people are going to do it at that level. But I'm talking about sort of more rank and file and writers, columnists who become TV personalities, the way to get there, to get to the top, to get the most visibility to get on TV is really to break. news and just be a 24-7 all-consuming insider. And as you look at Woe, you look at Shafter, you look at Rapaport and Choms and others. And so, but if you don't want to do that, you can still make a good living. But that is the best way to get ahead. Become an expert in something. And like me, I think I'm known as somebody who knows a little bit about everything,

but maybe I'm known years ago as a basketball guy and then a golf. guy later and then an NFL guy, but bouncing around is not going to get you to the top. It's becoming an expert at something, and that's usually the advice I give. Yeah, I view you as a storyteller. I think you're a great American sport storyteller, and that's what I value. Yeah, I mean, your books have read them all. And I can't wait for this. Aaron Rogers, that's a really, you know, part of this book writing thing is the topic. I tell people this all the time in my business. You can be the greatest sports talk show host of all time. You choose hockey. I choose football. I win the segment. It doesn't matter how great you are, how average I am. Topic matters. And right now, I can't wait to read the Aaron Rogers book. I can't. That's a great topic. I can't because nobody's really done the seminal book on him. Because he's been a little bit elusive. He's a little bit prickly. He can be a tad aloof. And he's not, he's not that giving. Teammates don't know him. He's not that giving. He's not that giving. So do you know the name for it yet?

Out of the darkness. Oh my. The mystery of Aaron Rogers is sort of the subtitle. But he has said those words out of the dark as. I came out of the darkness. It was more last year than I guess this year. But when he went on that darkest retreat and came outside, he still wanted to play. Then he wanted to play for the Jets.

And so the idea is to bring light to the mystery of who he is. And so that's why that title was picked. And so you're not really really. you're not a huge fan of his as a as a figure, right, as a personality. Well, I think first ballot Hall of Famer would always choose him over Farr if I thought he was more efficient and more of a thinking man's player. I consider him like A-Rod or Kevin Durant, an all-time great talent, not a great leader, little passive-aggressive, Geter's more leader, Brady's more leader. And I think there's a distinction between the two. I think LeBron has leadership quality.

Steph Curry does. I think Kauai Leonard's just great. And so we tend to think quarterbacks all have to be great leaders. Manning certainly was. He was very confrontational with Jeff Saturday. Brady with a coordinator. Mahomes with a coach. That's not Aaron.

But I do think he's a fascinating personality. He's a content machine. He's a contrarian. And I appreciate him. I think he suffers from a little bit of that smartest guy in the room disease. Oh, yeah, no doubt about that. Old, rich, single. Doesn't really have to sacrifice for kids, a family.

You know what I mean? Like, when you're married, it's a series of sacrifices. I'm willing to do all of them, but it's a different lifestyle than Aaron. And I think, you know, Bill Simmons and I have talked about this. Older, richer, handsome, never married. You know, you kind of get into your own, you get into your memory. a lot. You are the sun, the galaxy, and the stars. And I think there's a bit of that that's a little over the top, but I respect the hell out of him. Oh, it's interesting because the Jets, the players love him

to death. And I think most of them did in Green Bay. He had two guys, Greg Jennings and Jim Michael Finley, who had some negative things to say about him and his leadership style and approach over the years. But it's really kind of just those two guys. I had a prominent NFL figure. I use this quote in the book, but I'll give it to you now. I didn't name the person because he said, said, listen, I can't stand Aaron Rogers and everything he stands for, particularly on the vaccine. And this is somebody who's done a lot of business with the Packers and the Jets, prominent NFL figure. And he said, but I have to admit, I've never met an NFL player who doesn't like it. So in the locker room, he's loved in a lot of corners. And so

Hard Knocks was very good for him. I think it became an Aaron Rogers. infomercial really in terms of how he connected with players, older players, younger players, and how they responded to him. So we'll see. We'll see how the season plays out. I just want him to be healthy. I just want to see the season. I just want to see him make 15 starts.

And I've never, I've covered some of his games here and there, but I've never seen a full Aaron Rogers season. I'd love to see it in my backyard with the Jets. and if he could win a championship with the Jets, which is unlikely, that would do a tremendous amount for his legacy. I think right now I'd have him fifth all-time on the quarterback list. I think he could probably move up to two or three with a Super Bowl victory with the Jets. I'd probably put, well, Brady's 1, Mahomes 2, Montana 3, Peyton Manning, 4, I'd have Rogers 5. But I think he can move up a step or two if he went on with the Jets.

Yeah, I have Brady, Mahomes, Montana, Peyton, Elway, and then I think you get into the next four or five guys. He's in that discussion, absolutely. Do you have more like seven, eight? Yeah, I have him more like eight, but I always preferred him over Favre, who I thought was reckless, not as coachable, was more instinct-driven, which I understood John Madden's affection for him, but I, I always preferred him. I like guys who are more kind of buttoned up on script and take the laps and not everything is sort of, you know, I'm going to do it my way. I think that's a very outdated way to play football. So, Ian O'Connor is one of my favorite, and I've told him this many times, one of my favorite sports writers, a dogged reporter, exceptional writer. So am I reading this right? I know this is personal, but you put it out there, a bomb scare on a plane you were recently on. When did this happen? last week, that's when I was flying out to see Aaron Rogers. And so we were going Newark to LAX. We got, well, about an hour and a half into the flight. Pilot comes on and says, we have a situation on board. We need to land this plane. So we're going to land in Chicago. And he didn't say medical situation, so that concerned me. So now we have a situation. And so you're thinking

the worst, is there a serious mechanical problem on the plane? Is it possible we're going to crash? And as we're landing at O'Hare, we were coming in pretty hot. So we had no information, and we saw the emergency vehicles with their lights flashing. So that's not good. You don't want to see that when you're coming in pretty hot. And so we land and it was bouncy, but, okay, we parked the plane, and we're far away from the terminal. They did not want our plane near that terminal. And then we found out the senior crew member gets on the intercom and says, now we can tell you what the situation is. And we had

somebody go in the bathroom and leave a message that there's a bomb on this plane. And so we're going to get you off and law enforcement will come on and inspect the plane and we'll see where we go from here. Meanwhile, they didn't rush us off, so we're thinking that it's possible. There's a bomb on the

plane. We'd like to get off as quickly as possible. They finally got us off. They loaded us onto buses. They eventually took us to the terminal. We sat there. I did anyway, for seven hours. They checked the plane head to toe. And that was it. The interesting thing is, I ended up taking the same plane from O'Hare to LAX seven hours later. And it might have been the safest plane in the air because of the way it was checked. But that was odd to me that I ended

back on that plane. And it was covered to some degree nationally and locally. But as far as I know, nobody was ever arrested. And if it was just a hoax, that's a felony. Is it not? Yes. In mid-air? Okay. So I don't know if that's a statement on news outlets and all the cutbacks and layoffs and these newsrooms have been completely slashed. And there's been, I keep checking, how could there not be an arrest? How could there not be any follow-up? Nothing. Now, I understand it, maybe it's so embarrassing that United Airlines or the FAA doesn't want this to get out, whatever the result was, if it was just a total hoax. But I can't believe that if I weren't so busy with. my book and I have to get this thing done, I would probably turn it into a personal crusade to find out what exactly happened. But there's been no follow-up whatsoever, and it just went away. And I guess the bottom line is I'm happy that everybody's safe, but somebody did something on that plane to cause that. And as far as I know, nothing's come of it. Ian O'Connor, God, what a pleasure. Thankfully, you landed safely. An American hero. You came in hot and

By the way, I've only been on one bad flight. There is nothing worse when you're on a hot flight. It's bumpy. You've got to get down. Just get on the ground, right? Just get on the ground. That's all I wanted it. Mike Breen's got some all.

He's flown enough. He's got some all-time stories as well in the air. Ian is always. It's great talking to you. It was my pleasure, Colin. Thanks so much. The volume. Thanks so much for listening.

If you've enjoyed the podcast, take a moment, rate, and review. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith Rule of Two.

Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your mind. podcast. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human.