The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - Pay Terry, Trade Parsons, Expectations For JJ McCarthy? Antonio Gates HoF Career, Why Undrafted Players Become Stars

Episode Date: August 4, 2025

Colin’s joined by John Middlekauff, host of “3 and Out” to talk all things NFL! They start with sharing their favorite summer vacation spots (3:30) before pivoting to the Vikings where Colin predicts J.J. McCarthy’s success might mirror Brock Purdy’s due to the high level of talent and coaching surrounding him (7:30). They highlight McCarthy having a similar situation at Michigan and why the best NFL quarterbacks tend to come from less prestigious programs (12:00). They compare the AFC and NFC and argue that the top of the AFC is better, but the NFC is the deeper conference (15:45) and preview what the expectations should be for the Chicago Bears (17:15). Colin argues that the Commanders should pay Terry McLaurin (32:00), the Cowboys should trade Micah Parsons rather than pay him (39:00). They predict major turmoil between the Bengals and Joe Burrow if they miss the playoffs after yet another ugly offseason contract squabble (48:00). They look back on the Hall of Fame career of Antonio Gates after his induction into Canton (58:00) and discuss why the NFL is the only league where late round and undrafted players regularly become stars (1:02:00). Finally, Colin explains his passion for his newfound hobby… golf (1:18:00)! (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates!  #VolumeSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The volume. I am literally just off a plane. Can I have my only complaint of Chicago so far? So you're going to be joining me this weekend for the live tour, stop in Chicago. That O'Hare, first of all, O'Hare is about an hour. from downtown. It could be worse, a little better or a little worse, depending on the traffic. But when you land in Chicago, and I don't know where it is, like L.A., it always felt L.A.X. It was about 10 minutes. Your taxi can be 25 minutes. Today it was 28. Once we landed 28 minutes to get to the gate.

It's just such a damn big airport. Now, United is almost always better than American. Delta doesn't have any presence here. a little jet blue maybe. But so that's why I'm scrambling to get on the air. Thank God I sat in red for two hours on my flight. By the way, when you live in Phoenix, when you live in Arizona, so in Chicago, I head to Rhode Island and take some time off. Where do you go in the summer? We usually just go.

I mean, I've been here now three years for the most part because her family is back in Sacramento, Bay Area, Tahoe. You know, we go back there. So mainly to Tahoe, but it's to see our parents, our moms, our brothers. Her brother lives in Reno, just had a baby. My brother has a couple of young kids. He's younger than me. Lives in the Sacramento area.

So we usually go back to California, which is an easy, the good thing with Phoenix, you know, Phoenix to Vegas, Phoenix to LA, Phoenix to the Sacramento Bay Area. These are all very easy flights. So for the most part, I haven't ventured, you know, your way up until I went to the Texas, Oklahoma game. last year. And I got married to Nashville, I guess. But again, I would say this for Phoenix. The airport's kind of poorly built, but it is relatively efficient. You know, I lived in Philly for a couple years. That could be a shit show. San Francisco can be just outrageous, obviously, LAX. You know, it just depends. And like you said about Chicago, and Philly was like this, a lot of the East Coast areas when they would get these storms. Yes. Especially in the winter can just

derail the Phoenix. I mean, most people are flying in. I would say, Obviously, we get people flying in from the Midwest or the Northeast, but it's a lot of West Coast travel. Yeah. No, listen, for anybody that's not been to Lake Tahoe, I highly recommend it in the summer. It is an unbelievable gem in North America. It reminds me a little bit of Banff up in Canada, Calgary, where it's just, it just doesn't look like anything else you've ever been to. So I'm glad I used to go to Kelly James to Cordivol a couple years ago. You know Kelly James?

Cortal Lane. I went to Cordillane. Yeah, that concert's crazy. He's a stud. He's the absolute stud. Look him up, folks. So, listen, my takeaway on all these camps, because when I go on vacation, I watch a little bit, but I, you know, I am golfing.

I am, you know, with the dogs and my wife and hanging out. When I watch all this camp stuff, I will say that I think there are grains of truth. everything. I think you can edit it any way you want. I don't think it means everything. I think there's something. I'm going to still stick with my prediction. The J.J. McCarthy will, if he does have success, it's a little bit of a Brock Purdy thing. It's the coach. It's the left tackle. It's the weapons that will put him in a place that I think elevates him beyond what he would be with average personnel, average coach, or bad. I don't think Brock Purdy's good enough to save a bad situation, but I think in the

current situation with Trent Williams, Kittal, Jennings, Shanahan, McCaffrey, I think more than capable. I tend to think McCarthy's going to fall into that. I mean, left tackle, head coach, running back, tight end. I think I think J.J. McCarthy would have to be bad not to have some Brock Pretty level success where, you know, he's not a physical specimen. but he can complete passes and move the chains. I do think, though, he, you know, Brock Purdy got to come in toward middle of the end of the year, right? So there was less pressure, and let's face it, when Jimmy Garoppel shattered his ankle, the expectations for Brock Purdy were zilch.

I mean, I thought their season was over. Yeah. And then the kid just started rattling off games. You know, for J.J. McCarthy, a little like Trey Lance when the 49ers drafted him, kind of like Caleb, but we didn't really believe in Iberflus. It's pretty rare that a guy that was drafted pretty high starts on a team that, what do you think is a fair expectation, anything less than the NFC championship game with their roster, their coaching staff?

It's really, really high. You know, it's not like 9 and 8 and some growing pains. You know, Justin Jefferson has some comments within the last week. You can just tell it's like our expectations here are high. And it's like, this is a work in progress. Now, the good thing is you can get better, right? He might not be. Same with Caleb.

with a lot of these guys, what they look like in September, they might look a lot better in November. But it can go the other way, too. It can break you. So if you have a couple tough games, how do you handle that adversity? That's really what all the NFL is, right, is handling the tough times to get to the better times. I was reading somebody in the athletic ranked the coaching staffs. And I didn't disagree. He had Minnesota is the best coaching staff in the league. I think he had San Francisco with Kyle and Sala too. Are you talking the whole staff? Yeah, I mean, basically head coach, top coordinators. He had Minnesota number one. And I think, and I've said this about Brock Purdy.

I mean, literally, he got the keys to a Mercedes. You get Shanahan, McCaffrey, Trent Williams, at the time, Debo, I. U. Kittle. I mean, that's hard to mess up. I mean, if you're just capable, if you're quick above the shoulders, which I think J.J. McCarthy and Brock Purdy are. I think they're smart guys. The downside to it is it's not, it's a hard eval. It's hard to evaluate somebody when they're, I mean, it would be like putting somebody with Charles Barclay, Shaq, and Ernie Johnson. It's hard to really say what Kenny Smith is, certainly capable, but his role on that show is to kind of poke the bear and just kind of have fun and be the straight man.

And so it is hard to make it. It's an easy evaluation on Jaden Daniels last year. Oh, shit. He's carrying a bad old line, a defensive coach. A one weapon offense. Wow. It's like Andrew Luck. Or Herbert's rookie year.

Wow. This is impressive. I think JJ is going to be a hard evaluation because how much of the success is based on, I mean, let's be honest. Last year in week 14, Sam Darnold was first or second in MVP. He was a bust going to Minnesota. So like now, I don't even know quite what to make of Darnold. What is Darnold? Well, I'm pretty high. I think Darnold, I think their team's going to be pretty good,

you know, given health, the talent in Seattle. I would expect, you know, pretty high things for Sam, maybe not to throw 35 touchdowns, but to just be a solid player in the NFL moving forward. You know, be a guy that's on the good side of the top 15 of the quarterbacks, not, you know, somewhere between 22 and 32, like most people thought he just suck. But one thing going back to Darnold, he said that change his career was not just Kyle believing him, but watching Brock Purdy operate. And the thing that separated Brock Purdy immediately was not his height, was not his arm strength, it was all the intangible stuff, which he had built for four years at an, let's face it, when he got there kind of an average football program

that him and Matt Campbell transitioned into a high-level football program where he was getting offered by USC. And that big reason was because of Brock Purdy. You know, I mean, let's face it, Mel Tucker got some big jobs because, got a huge extension because of Kenneth Walker. Sometimes one or two individuals at not the top tier programs can change the course of your career. So Brock Purdy, his intangibles are a huge separating factor for why all the guys with the 49ers coaches and players believe in them. You know, JJ, he's just going to have to prove it. You know, and it's going to have to be part of his repertoire.

Are you getting there at five in the morning? Are you grinding Monday through Saturday? Because that's all these quarterbacks. That's all they talk about. It's not just the grind on. Tom Brady's been talking about Mondays and Tuesdays for 15 years. Yeah, I mean, it's, I think one of the things that Brock Purdy had a real, and we're talking here, J.J. McCarthy, Brock Pruddy, the comp is, you know,

they're a little smaller than you like. They don't have huge arms. There were questions about both. One's first round pick, and I think a bit overdrafted. One's a seventh round pick, clearly underdrafted. But the one thing. that Brock Purdy had on J.J. McCarthy, Brock had to carry pretty average players. Now, you had Brees Hall, but by and large, it was Iowa State guys, whereas J.J. McCarthy was carried by the

best old line in football. He loaded roster. And I've always said this, John, I've been saying, I wrote about this in my first book. You would think it's very linear. You know, USC should have 25 great NFL quarterbacks in the history of the NFL. They have one, Carson Palmer, is that you would think LSU has 15 or Bama's got 12 and Ohio State has 14. They don't because it's an advantage in college to go to Cal like Goff and Aaron Rogers or go to NC State like Russell Wilson did for three years of Philip Rivers because you don't throw to five-star receivers and you're always hurried like Matt Ryan or Big Ben. Big Ben at Ohio State would have sat in that pocket for days.

At Miami of Ohio, he had to be the playmaker. So the advantage Brock Purdy has is, dude, I'm carrying, I'm carrying mostly average dudes, right? Like when you face Oklahoma, Oklahoma of the 22 starters has 19 guys would start on Iowa State's roster. And so one of the things about J.J. McCarthy, my biggest question, he's never once had to carry a football team. Well, I think in a perfect world, J.J. McCarthy, honestly, his comp, also ironically with 49ers, a little Jimmy Garapolo, just in terms of playing in the sense of not carrying the team, his physical skills, pretty solid. JJ's a better athlete. But look at Jimmy, who was drafted in the second round, got to sit, learn, was not thrust in anything, obviously benefited from Tom Brady. You know, J.G is getting thrown into this thing. Imagine if Jimmy Garoppolo just been thrown on the Patriots, like, year two. His career, I mean, who knows, maybe it would have gone well, but it could have gone.

It was an intense environment. Not quite that because they had been winning championships. And obviously, Kirk Cousins is not, and Sam Darnold are not Tom Brady. But there is an intensity with everyone in football going, yeah, it's one of the best rosters in the league, if not the best. Oh, yeah. And if you do the coordinator combo, which the head coach and Brian Flores, that's as good as it gets. So we just saw him last year, you know, they had all those injuries. toward the end of the season, and Sam, you know, didn't play great either.

But that O-line injuries with Sam Darnold, like, just kind of crumbled at the end. But at least they were in the fight. I mean, they were going into the last game with 14. And think of all of the big plays. I mean, a huge part. I remember watching Sam Darnold's introductory press conference, and one of the questions they asked Mike McDonald was, how big of an evaluation process was that game that he played against you

and threw that touchdown to basically knock you out of the playoffs? He's like, obviously, I had front row seat, and I'm the defensive guru. I mean, he didn't exactly say this, but the defense is my baby, and he's eating me alive. So how could it not play a part? Now, you've got to be careful with that.

It was the aggregate body of work over the course of the season, but Sam Arnold threw 35 touchdowns last year. I know. Like Matt Stafford through 20, so that's, there's just a lot of pressure on JJ. It's going to be hard to just have a season where you throw 20 touchdowns,

especially as a young player, you're probably going to throw some picks and have a record that's competing. I mean, it's hard to make the playoffs. The NFC might not have beside the Eagles, maybe not the powerhouses of like the bills, the Ravens, and the Chiefs. But I think they go 10 deep with teams that are just going to be tough. Yeah, no, there was a two-year window, and I've used the Cowboys as an example. There was about a three-year window where the AFC hit on all these good quarterbacks.

Burrell, Lamar, Josh, Herbert. As about a three-year window, the AFC was noticeably better than the NFC. And now it's not. In fact, I think the AFC is better at the top. I think the NFC's deeper. I think there's just a lot. I mean, I think Tampa's really good. I think the Rams, Seattle, the Niners, you could argue everybody if the Bears hit is good in the NFC North.

Philadelphia and Washington are excellent. So, yeah, I mean, you start looking at Minnesota schedule. there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of laps. You know, there's not a lot of par threes. It is, it's pretty rough. So I'm, okay, and it's interesting because I'm really, I like watching young quarterbacks. I like, there's a lot in the NFL I know and you and I know. Like, we know who the good coaches are.

We know Buffalo is going to be good in Baltimore and Kansas City. We just know that. We also know, like, for instance, even the things we don't know we're pretty sure of. Vrable and New England are going to be massive. Improved. Like, we kind of feel that. Sean Payton's got it rolling in Denver. Chargers will probably take another step up.

Here's another team. The Raiders should be noticeably better just on staffing and quarterback play. But the two teams that we don't know a lot about, and our Minnesota, we don't know McCarthy, and Chicago. And Chicago could go either way. So as I watched all these clips this weekend in the last four or five days, my take is whatever it's confirmation bias.

I want Chicago to work. I live here. I know Caleb. I'd love to see the Bears to finally have a good offense. So I watch the clips and I think, oh, he's dynamic. But if you're not a Caleb Williams fan, you can see a lot of clips and go, this is not going to work. Where are you on what you've seen so far?

I don't think it's just clips. I think it goes back to the offseason when Ben Johnson's like, your body language sucks. the way you carry yourself and get off the ground is not good enough. And those are things that young coaches, you know, first-time coordinators that become a head coach, especially offensive guys that can tend to be a little more cerebral, can be a little easier on guys. And I do have to wonder if the last couple of years watching Dan Campbell, again, I've watched a lot of Ben Johnson's press conferences the last couple weeks.

He doesn't come. He's not like he's trying to be Dan Campbell in terms of like in front of the mics, some super tough guy. But clearly the expectations and a whole, He's canceled some, you know, they've gone out and he sent them back. Like, I was like, damn, this guy is not messing around. And it does feel centered around the quarterback that, again, based on a clip of watching him throw the ball into a net and not even come close, you're like, not great.

Here's what we know, though. Historically, if you give a draft of four quarterbacks and a couple of them become high-end guys, we already know Jaden Daniels, even if he takes a little bit of a step back from the high- He's a stud. He's a really good player still, right? CJ had a down year. Everyone would buy C.J. Stroud stock moving forward. No different.

Jaden Daniels is a hit. Bo Nix. I just don't see how Denver is not going to be consistent for a while. And Bo Nix is going to be good. So we got two of the six. Well, and Drake May. We're one away from... And Drake May with a real coach and $300 million in free agency.

I mean, there were times last year, and that was a bad staff. There were times I watched Drake, man. I thought, oh, I see the Herbert comp. And you go, worst-case scenario, you're going to get with Vrable. the way he operates. Look what he did with Tanny Hill. He can just create an environment. Maybe Drake Bay can become a bigger, more athletic, like Jimmy Garoppolo type.

He's going to be okay. Even if he doesn't become Josh Allen or Herbert, he's going to be solid. Same. Now we're down to 50%. So we got the other three. Pennix, I think Atlanta's kind of a weird place. Yeah. And I just, you know, the owner thinks, I just, I'm kind of out.

The cousins thing's still around, even though he's a high character guy. It's just, I just don't buy into that organization. organization. J.J., major question mark. Caleb, to me, is still a question mark with Ben Johnson. But my theory is this. You've talked a lot about this, the clock on these guys, this isn't 1997, where most of these owners don't have big cash. They will pivot off guys in a moment's notice. I was in the car the other day, and I was flipping around, and I listened to NFL radio. And Howie was on, they had like the NFL radio crew was going through. And he's like, were talking about the draft pick of Jalen Hertz.

And he was like, you know, we had just given Carson & Wins a huge contract the year before. And that was seven, eight years ago, maybe not that long ago, what, 2018-ish, right? It was after they, you know, the year after they won the Super Bowl. Think how much more money is getting distributed now. What, they just give out $450 million? Well, what's that number going to be in three or four years? $600 million? These teams are not worried about with an on a guy.

I mean, it's not an ideal situation to be in. But if Caleb, let's just say this year, that it goes, I think Ben Johnson knows what he's doing, but they win eight games. It's not going to be Ben Johnson's fault. Like, he's not going anywhere. And all of a sudden, it would be an offseason. Do they go sign whoever the equivalent is of that $15, $20 million bridge quarterback and have an open competition? There is pressure on him this year to me to play well.

And playing well isn't just throwing up stats. You better be winning. Yeah, two things to think about, too. Detroit looked awful in the Hall of Fame game. They looked unorganized. So when Detroit pulls back this year, and the Hall of Fame game aside, we don't know. I mean, it's their threes, but yeah. Yeah, yeah.

But they did look disorganized. Let's say that Detroit looks like they miss Ben Johnson. That will empower Ben Johnson. So if Caleb struggles and Detroit pulls back, people will say, it's not Ben Johnson. Like, look at, I mean, Detroit's this powerhouse. Detroit's been the most. most disgust offense in the league because of how creative they were. If Detroit pulls back, we think they will. The division's better. And we don't think Ben Johnson's fill-ins Ben Johnson.

Then all of a sudden it empowers Ben more. And then if Caleb struggles, it's just, and there's already questions. And also, Caleb is talented enough that even if he didn't work with Ben, it wouldn't be a disaster. I doubt very seriously. He'd make plays. And you couldn't. And my take is, over the next two years, you could move him and get a good pick. Like Caleb's the kind of guy that he'll have enough tape. You can look at Bryce Young and just say, he's too small, he's not going to last. It doesn't. Caleb's thick, big arm moves.

I mean, Carson Wend's kept getting opportunities. Like Caleb's the kind of guy that Chicago could move off. And if they didn't go well, Ben's not taking the heat. and you could get something for Caleb. I mean, Jesus, especially with guys like Donald and Baker Mayfield and Gino Smith being reborn. Yeah, and we're a long way away from that. I'm not even saying selling.

Like, this thing is a disaster. But, like, to me, they can't go seven or eight wins. You know, Dennis Allen's a good defensive coordinator. Their defense is going to be solid. And they're going to be in closer games. I mean, last year, as the thing fell apart, it felt like every game was 20 to 30 to thing at half time. It was a joke. And then the second half was to me, I couldn't even judge

any of his throws because they were completely meaningless. I'm with you. His physical he can move, he's got a big arm. He definitely can play make. But to be a good quarterback, and this is the JJ thing too, can you play within the confines and the construct of the offense? So some plays, one, two, get rid of the ball. Why does

Kyle Shanahan love Brock Purdy? Because he will play in the construct of the offense. Why does Sean Payton love Bo Nix? Because he will do what he tells them to. That was a Russell Wilson thing. Before I walked in here, I was flipping around and NFL network, it must have been from earlier today because it looked like the morning in a lot of camps. And they were going camp to camp. And one thing, Steve Smith, senior was like they were at Steeler camp. And they're like, you could tell a lot of these guys

were telling us like, God, this guy, you know, because Aaron Rogers can still sling it. And they're like, the big difference of last year is like Russell Wilson was just kind of chucking it. This guy can sling it. And there's a difference between just chucking it. which I would say Caleb was kind of doing, a lot of quarterbacks do when it's off kilter. Inside an offense, now, how hard you, Caleb has arm strength. Oh, yeah. But can he play within the pocket?

Why did Baker become a really good player? Because the offense, he started operating in it. He's got a good arm. He's on time. He gets rid of the ball. He can move to, but like a lot of his stuff, like playmaker within the pocket. And that's, I think, a question mark on Caleb, because he's got that Russell Wilson instinct to like,

I just got to make plays. it's like you got to stay in there. That's what Ben Johnson built a powerhouse offense really by, sitting in the pocket and getting rid of the ball, getting rid of the ball fast. No, and this is something to note. I think we talked about this last time. There are not that many head coaches who are gifted play designers and play callers. Andy Reed is, Sean Payton is, Shanahan is. But most head coaches, Jimmy Johnson's a legendary CEO.

I mean, that's what Jimmy was. Pete Carroll is as a CEO. Mike Tomlin's more of a CEO. A lot of the great coaches are. Harbaugh brothers are. Bill Parcells was. And then you get the occasional, the guy could literally go on the whiteboard. Kevin O'Connell is a whiteboard guy.

Well, Ben Johnson is. And those guys all have one thing in common. They want the quarterback to run their play. Right? Tomlin's not, Tomlin's going to let you do what you want to do. you know, defensive coaches don't know the lingo, literally. But most of these guys who can call plays like Peyton, they lose their shit if you don't follow directions. Well, it's not an apples to apples comparison because Russell was an older guy on a huge contract and Caleb is the number one pick on a rookie contract.

But I do think there are some parallels. You run my offense that I know works or this is not going to work. Right. There are two lanes. You run my offense and I feel good about you're running my office. and I feel good about you running my offense, or you will be gone. So I think those are the only two. There's no like, oh, he'll morph some play.

Like, nah, the offense with Ben Johnson. And Sean's, you know, has a longer track record, like his offense, he ain't pivoting. Maybe Ben would try some different stuff because there would be some pressure to make this number one overall pick work. But the way he's talking, the way he's operating, it kind of feels like I got a pretty good idea what I'm doing on offense, and this is the way we're doing it. Nothing says summer like long days, clutch plays and firing off a few bets, all with Draft King's Sportsbook. As the season heats up, so do the bets. And Drafking Sportsbook has you covered, home run props,

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But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this.

We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed the game. Morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies,

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And for more, follow Timbo Slicelife 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis. And I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs. And on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast, I'm breaking down. on everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on Clay. Jen she won.

I mean, she went down at three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lena Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now, and I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the Eye Heart

radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. I agree. So you and I both agree on this, that the Terry McLaren situation in Washington is troubling. So I liked the Debo acquisition because he's a chess piece. And Cliff Kingsbury would be, you know, a play designer is good with chess pieces. But Debo is not as good, consistently or as healthy consistently or as productive consistently as Terry McLaren. And Terry's been the guy that's been,

I mean, because of where he was drafted, Terry hasn't gotten the huge payday yet. In fact, you could argue before Amaran St. Brown's contract that McLaren and Amarong St. Brown were the most underpaid, underpaid weapons in the league. So I actually get Terry McLaurin saying,

guys, I have outperformed my contract fourfold. Debo is a guy that's not going to be a centerpiece, more of a chess piece, struggles to stay healthy. No, no, no. This, I'm not, I'm not doing any team favors on this. I kind of side with Terry McClureen here, you. Belichick talked about this for a long time, the locker room dynamics and money. I mean, you're dealing with young people who value themselves based on their contract relative

to their peers. You know, it's hard with NFL contracts because it's convoluted because a signing bonus is pro-rated money. But basically they make a very similar amount of actual cash going into their bank account, week one through 17 this year, Debo and Terry McLaren. Last time I checked Terry McLaren had 13 touchdowns last year, and it was a massive reason that Jaden Daniels became a star. And if you're him, like, what about all the sweat equity when this franchise was a joke?

Yes. I was the good guy doing the right thing. You bring in this other guy who is the GM's guy, right, from the 49ers. But he peaked, you know, part of the reason Kyle got rid of him, he's like chubby wide receiver. When do you ever hear about that? Like couldn't stay in shape. Got Moody's.

Asked for trades before. Now he comes and we're making similar money. These are human beings. Yeah. I totally understand like that's not really, I feel like a part of the reporting. It's not like and Terry would come out and say I'm jealous or angry because, but you can't tell me that didn't play a part. You think I'm going to make the same amount of money as this guy.

You know, we're both in contract years. Yet this is my team, which I've been here from day one, you just bring in this guy. I also wonder if it showed him like, what? This administration, they weren't my people. So I better be pretty careful now. They're going to want me to lay it on the line now. But what if I get hurt and then I can't get a contract after this year? They don't care.

They'll just move on. Because wide receivers, this isn't, you know, tackle or defense events. It's not a very, it's a pretty easy position to replace. Even if Debo fails, they could just draft a guy next year in the first round or the second round or hit on a guy in the fourth round. Who knows, maybe McCaffrey's brother becomes a 50 catch guy. It's an easy position. You could argue it's the easiest position now to find. Oh, I can name off the top of my head, the Tank Dells and the Pucanakua's and the Amaran St. Browns.

Rounds, rounds four, five, Jennings and San Francisco's, I think a seventh round guy. Wide receivers easily. Now, it can be the most inflammable and bustable first round pick because they come in, you know, it's an ego position. They come in in the first round. But by and large, it's, I just, I look at Terry McLaurin and I try to personalize it. And I'm thinking, he's been a good guy. He's been productive. He was the star.

He is, to a large degree, is the one thing you could build Jaden Daniels around, not the old line of the run game or tight end. I think you have to take care of him. And for the record, I wouldn't have said this 10 years ago, but you can pay two weapons now. And they're not paying a running back big money or a tight end. Like 10 years ago, the money was dispersed often more on the defense than offense. in New England it was. I mean, Brady was taking

cuts. In the NFL now, the Rams, the Chiefs, they pay like one defensive player. So I'm okay paying two weapons. I'm okay with T. Higgins and Jemar Chase. I'm okay with it. Well, imagine if you're Terry

too, so you look around and you go, listen, I'm not even comparing myself to Jamar Chase or C.D. Lamb or Justin, but let's go D.K. Metcalfe, the next to your guys. Who early on his career had like the great to start ever. Last couple years have been weird. The guy that gets penalties every game, and Seattle was like, yeah, we're kind of out of this business. I know he said he asked for a

trade. I think they were ready to pivot. And he goes, well, he just gets $150 million and $60,000, and guaranteed. And he's a question mark of like, can you corral this guy? He's like a better version of some of these crazy guys. I am everything you would want, character, check all these boxes, and I produce. And I can't get, you guys won't even offer me. anything. So they want him, and it's the NFL, it's cut throat. I totally understand it, but I think they want him just to play this season on the $15 million and then evaluate after that. Now, this isn't the NBA, right? When these guys ask for trades, like, you don't just, he's gone. Like, that's not how they're going to operate. And I think these guys know now that

they'll get fined and they can't take them back so they show up so they don't get $50,000 a day. But they don't really have to do anything, but is it worth having this guy who's kind of the heartbeat of your, one of the heartbees of your team team captain, being mad and a weird mood. Like the expectations for Washington, this is why it's hard. And all these coaches say, what happened last year is kind of irrelevant this year because guys want to get paid, guys got injured, some guys are gone. Like, every team is, they had nothing but good vibes last year.

Now this year, it's like, oh. Yeah, no. And the other thing is this is not the NBA, where it's hard to name a player whose career was ended because of an injury. It's the same in baseball. outside of pitchers and arms. I mean, baseball careers can last forever. In football, it's just one shot to the knee

and you're not the same wide receiver. So, like, I get the psychology of McLorins, like, bro, I'm taking, I take hits at practice. Like, we can all name 10 pro football careers that have been ended early because of injuries. It doesn't happen in basketball and baseball or hockey as much. So I get McLaurans, there's a certain insecurity about football.

football players. I get why they want to get paid. Totally. And I think they see it at training camp and we're numb to it as fans and coaches and GMs don't care. But you see guys every single day, so-and-so shattered his legs, so-and-so ripped his Achilles. A lot of times it's like the 75th man, so no one cares. Those players are standing there right in that drill and see the cart come at. And they knew that guy. Hell, it might be their buddy. They might have been eating lunch with him. But he's on the practice squad. They've been hanging out with him for a couple years. They see that cart leaving with his helmet. They go, his career could be over.

And then a couple days later, he's waived injured. And so for every time that we see, well, because I always say this, most good players see the majority of their contract. Like Russell Wilson is kind of an outlier. If you look at the landscape of the league, all the top players, because we haven't had catastrophic injury to a lot of the top players in recent years, they're seeing the guaranteed money and the non-guaranteed money of their contract. But it's just, I wouldn't take that risk if I were any of these guys either because all it takes is one guy, on India and your career's done. Or you're just never the same and all of a sudden you go from a $20 million player to a veteran minimum guy. So I don't feel the same with Micah Parsons, who has a year left on the contract. He's been noisier. He's been less consistent. I think Terry McLaren

is, there's an argument the most underpaid player in the league via vis-a-vis production. Michael Parsons is a very good player. I talked about this a year ago. I was team trade Michael Parsons. Just forget the rest of the league. Forget the rest of the NFC. To catch up to Philadelphia, you need about four more really good players. And Micah could have fetched you probably a first than a third and maybe a fifth. I mean, who knows? Edge rushers. I don't. I think Micah, because he's on the county, if Micah played for the Jacksonville Jaguars, I don't think he would be discussed as often as he is. I think he's really, really good. He's not Miles Garrett. I don't think he's Max Crosby.

he's probably better than Hendricks and against the run. He's a very, very good player. No Shodan playoff games. I've seen him manhandled up a few times. I like him a lot. But I would have moved him. I would have had no problem. I would have moved him for picks because I think CD and Dak,

if you're going to pay Dak that, you've got to give him a weapon. So my take is I'm not Team Micah. My take is I would have moved him. I would not make him the highest paid guy for the next six months in the league. I don't think he's that. Am I wrong? To me, he's a splash player. There are moments he's unbelievable.

But I also watch Cowboy games where he's ineffective and disappears against really good offensive lines. Yeah, I mean, I would take a healthy version of Miles Garrett. I think three guys that got paid, T.J. Watt and Max Crosby over him. Now, relative to the Cowboys, if you are going to trade him, you have to do it before the draft. It doesn't help you now. It's, you know, remember when the Raiders did it with Cleo Mac and just derailed them for a couple of years.

So it's too late. You know, that new podcast, the volume, are you a Bravo guy? Have you ever seen Wes in action for Bravo? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, I watch a lot of it with my wife, obviously. They got a big, these shows, I was Googling, do like 2 million people watching Summer House.

Stephen Colbert would sell his left leg to do the numbers. that these shows are, I mean, they are huge, very popular shows. But because there's a lot of drama, a lot going on, women watch it, bring their men in, a lot of people watch these shows and know what's going on. That has become Jerry Jones and the Dallas Cowboys. They've become a Bravo reality television show. And they got a lot of people paying attention. And Jerry's comments, he does, he feels like he's slipping pretty hard.

I feel like these last couple years. Because he's making this situation. Listen, these contract negotiations are not easy. We were talking, I get the leagues making a lot of money. It's still a lot of money for players that can get it. Just production can fall. Things change faster in football than the other sports, right? Guy falls off a cliff and you're like, God, he's 28.

All of a sudden, Todd Gurley's out of the league. Things happen weird in football. So I always understand for the front office view is like, should we do this? These are tough conversations unless you're like Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen. But Jerry makes this way worse because he, think about all these other negotiations. I gave the Browns a lot of credit. Remember Miles Garrett, what came to the Super Bowl? He's like, I want out. Trade me. And then Jim, he's like, clutch was like, I want a meeting with Jimmy Haslam. Jimmy's like, I'm not only,

am I not meeting? Talk to my GM. A couple days later, he signed and it's just over. T.J. Watts, like, I need more money. A month later, he's got paid. The new administration, SpyTech and Pete Carroll, you're like, God, they're going to like Max Crosby, even though I think probably time to reset, trade them. Boom, they just pay them. This is just, it's, it's, it's, This is the cowboys, man. They can't. And people are like, Jerry loves himself in the headlines. I think we're past that point.

The cowboys are always in the headlines. Like, they're the Dallas Cowboys. I think Jerry's literally kind of just slipping. It's getting to be, it feels like, the old Al Davis Raiders, where a lot of his, like, stories are weird. Like, he'll start rambling. And there was always a point to him. But over the last couple years, he'll go off into these tangents and stories.

and I'm like, bro, I don't know where you're going, but this fishing trip, let me off the boat. Because you're not reeling me in on this thing. Like, I don't get it. And I think the mic of things just been misplayed. And I did an essay on it a couple of weeks ago is that it's like trying to take the keys away from grandpa. It's like, I mean, it's, and I'm not being mean-spirited. It's just we all, you get into 80s and you have a big wild life of travel and partying. and I just, I think the Cowboys are in a really, really tenuous spot. Well, it's getting pretty ugly clearly with Micah's agent. Jerry won't talk to him.

Because back in Jerry's heyday, he could just talk to the player and get deals done. And the agents weren't as big of an issue beside a couple players here and there. I mean, I saw a story recently that when he signed Dion Sanders, he dealt with Dion Sanders. And I'm sorry, Jerry, like, it sucks. I don't, I don't, most of these people don't want to deal with these agents. it's part of the deal. When you want to sign some of these players, you've got to sign,

call David Mogetta or Drew Rosenthouse. And Jerry just thinks he can go right to Micah, and it's made it way worse. Then like you said, if you watch some of these clips of Jerry 20 years ago, it was kind of like when Al was slipping, if you watch clips on NFL network of Al Davis in the 80s talking about his team,

you know, it was like, God, this guy's really impressive, you know, because they were. You know, Jerry was different than now. I'd say Al was probably felt a little more. academic than Jerry and a football guy. Jerry's a little more of a gunsling and businessman, but they are not the same in terms of like Al toward the end,

it got really ugly. The difference is the Raiders, the NFL hadn't quite taken off like a rocket ship with the money. So like Al literally didn't have cash sometimes. He had to wait for them to be. Jerry has the money. Jerry's just playing hardball. He's very stubborn and he's old.

But he is like a lot of people point out, sneaky a little cheap, doesn't spend the amount of cash at some of these teams. Because if you think about it, when Jerry got in the league, money even then was a little tighter, definitely than it is now, but people will tell you in the league,

well, it's like, look, Jerry's got a $200 million yacht, but he won't buy some players, then he'll blame the cap space. It's like, look at Jeffrey Lurie. You can manipulate it.

So it's whether they don't want to. It's whether they're not capable of doing it because they're not on the forefront of the cap capabilities. I don't know, but they do feel a little closer to like the way we talk about the Browns and the way we used to talk about

the Raiders, then the way they get discussed sometimes because of their brand. A little bit, let's face it, like the genie bus and bus family Lakers up until the last couple years, especially now that it's over with the new ownership. But mom and pop shop, but this guy's old. It's like Stephen. No one's listening to him. Just kind of a shit show, Colin. This whole thing is to me, you got a first-time head coach that no one would have hired

as their offensive coordinator. Think about that. With Brian Schottnheimer, if he was fired with Mike McCarthy, got an office. offensive coordinator job. And the answer is no, because he hadn't got one in years. So he wasn't going to get one now. And now he's your head coach, and I'm not trying to belittle the guy. I mean, he comes from football royalty. Like, maybe he'll be okay. But this is not an easy first job, Denner. Ask those guys that tried to coach in the 2000s with Al. It's hard. The, um, so I was, this happened before I left, but I thought it was interesting. So Mike Brown's

the old owner of the Bengals. And he kind of lashed out and said, you know, the Trey Hendricks and stuff, you know, he goes, a lot of media makes good points, but a lot of media is just talking. And I was thinking about it as I was flying from Rhode Island back to Chicago tonight, it is hard to have an A-level quarterback and miss the playoffs. Fourteen of the 32 teams make it. So 40% of the league makes it. Joe Burrow, there's an art. argument was the most efficient quarterback in the league last year. It's much more than Mahomes. So there was an argument on a week-to-week basis, just efficiency, quarterback rating. Burrell was the best quarterback in the league last year. But think about this, in an offensive

league. And they didn't make the playoffs. They didn't make it. That's almost John impossible in the NFL in 2024-25. If you're quarterback, I mean, it's, you don't even have to have a great quarterback. you can have a quarterback having a great year, Sam Darnold. You're going to win 13, 12, 13, 14 games. They didn't make the playoffs. And the reason they didn't make the playoffs, so you say, well, it's the coach. Well, then fire him. Well, they won't do that because you'd have to pay out a couple of years the contract.

So, Trey Hendrickson, they literally, I think there are 32nd in quarterback pressures without Trey Hendrickson. Like, he is their pass rush. and they're, I mean, he's it, he's the pass rush. And there, I mean, listen, Philadelphia can get pressure on the quarterback with or without Jaylon Carter. Jalen Carter is the game changer. He's like one of one, his body type, his quickness.

Hendrickson's not great against the run, but he is their pass rush. But this is like the fourth straight year. There's a contract squabble here. There's third straight year. Do you think if Cincinnati doesn't make the playoffs again and, and will give Burrow another great year because he's a great player. Do you think Burrell would just say, just go scorched earth and say, because I do. I think Joe is bright, self-aware.

You're starting to see him now do stuff in Paris in the off-season. He is so frustrated with the organization, he gets away from it. Like he goes abroad. He's not going to stay in Ohio. I think they're the fascinating team. If Cincinnati misses the playoffs, I think Joe Burroughs, I think Joe Burroughs. own as representatives may get ugly. The problem is we've seen how Mike Brown operates in that scenario.

He just tells you to kick rocks. You know, with Carson Palmer, he's done it this offseason. He's done it in years past. I think they, like the Bears last year, it's like you should have fired Iber flu. You could have hired Mike Vrable and you're probably a playoff team and Caleb, no one, we're not even talking about it. He's just solid, right?

Just would have worked. And this offseason, the Chargers went through this forever. It's like Anthony Lynn, Mike McCoy, Brandon Staley, just hire a real coach. What did they finally do? Jim Harbaugh. Who does everyone bought stock in for the last two years? The Chargers. Why? Because they got a real coach.

And this is a team. Imagine if they had fired Zach Taylor last year. Like, obviously the Bears being in Chicago is a hard job to pass up, especially they're going to pay you a lot of money. But to coach Joe Burrell? I mean, I'm sorry. Like, you're kind of remembered on wins and losses. Not just like, well, I coached the Bears.

Well, if you lost, no one cares, right? No one's really talking about Matt Nagy. Right? He would rather coach Joe Burrow than. Mitch Trubisky. So does, do they get Ben Johnson? Does Mike Vrable? Like, hey, I want that job over Drake.

It's Joe Burrow. So I think that it's hard to overcome this when you hire cheap coaches. And that's kind of, listen. Zach Taylor's probably a nice guy and, you know, solid NFL mind. But we're not talking John McVeigh, Kyle Shannon. He's not super dynamic. The organization isn't super dynamic, but you can overcome that. Like, no one ever said that about the Chargers until they got Jim Harbaugh.

And then they said, Jim Harbaugh said to listen. But you want me? I need X, Y, and Z. and now they're paying big money for all these people, and you feel good about them. But the difference is the L.A. market and the deal that Dean Spanos has, you know, like the dollar a year lease, is they are swimming in cash because the L.A. market drives so much revenue. Cincinnati doesn't. Their game day revenues near the bottom of the league. So Brown won't pay $15 million for a coach and $24 million for a staff.

I don't think they'll pay half that. Whereas Spanos, go, listen, SoFi is a bank. Sofi is unbelievable. If they won't, Joe Burroughs got to ask out then soon. You know, or their team's good enough, they can overcome it. But if that's the case, they go nine and eight and they miss it again. It's clear their coaching staff sucks. They fire them.

And then next year, whoever the hot guy is, they end up with a third-tier guy. It's like, you've got to get out because this is, we've seen this song and dance. I saw Antonio Gates pointed at Philip Rivers. Let's face it, I mean, they didn't exactly have the greatest coaches a lot of their a lot of their prime. I mean, can you imagine if those two guys would have had a Sean McVey at Kyle Shanahan and Kevin O'Connell, who knows the way we talk about that run of like, I remember those four out of the last seven years, the charges have been in the championship game and made a couple Super Bowles. And that's the difference of just like, oh, that one time Joe Burrow made the Super Bowl,

or he's going competing to go to the Super Bowl every single year. So you would have to short the Browns, or excuse me, the Bengals, because usually an owner. He's old guy like Jerry. I've known a lot of older businessmen that usually don't become more open-minded in their mid-70s. That's not how it works. So this is not changing

with the Brown family. Hey, it's us to Jonas Brothers and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually

come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys. I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. We were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this.

We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying,

and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source. The athlete,

themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis.

And I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay. Jen she went. I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay.

Listen, Lina Rabakina. is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports.

And now for our next segment, Whiskey Business. Yes, Whiskey Business brought to you by Green River Whiskey, the official Whiskey of the Colin Coward podcast. By the way, do you watch the Hall of Fame ceremonies? I just saw clip. I used to watch it a lot. They've kind of changed the sequence of the week. Because remember, they used to have the game on Sunday and the thing would be Saturday night.

Now they play the game on Thursday and they do it like in the morning. But I saw a lot of clips of Antonio Brown and Sterling and Shannon and Jared Allen, who has like some weird disease. Did you see that? And it had a change his diet. He looks slim. By the way, next year's class, Drew Brees, Larry, Fitzgerald. Julian Edelman's probably not a first ballot guy.

I don't know if he's even going to make it. Yeah. One of the great all-time winners, but I think I've seen his numbers compared to like West Welker. It's going to be hard to overcome. Yeah. Philip Rivers probably won't. But Phillips, Phillips fascinating because, and Matt Hasselback had some of this, there were

moments that they looked like Hall of Famers, but so much of it. but Eli had moments he didn't look anything resembling a Hall of Famer, but he had iconic moments, whereas Philip was really Hall of Fame productive, but he didn't have anything in January or February that was memorable. And so, yeah, you know, the Hall of Fame, it's, I think one of the cooler stories is Antonio Gates, the first undrafted Hall of Famer, I believe,

that there was a story that, you know, Philip Rivers was talking about. out, for those who didn't see it, where Philip basically said, Antonio Gates in the playbook, no matter what the play was, if Antonio Gates was covered one-on-one, that go to Antonio Gates usurped any other play. There was like, if you looked at the coverage and they put like one guy on him, it was like, we're going to Antonio Gate. It did not matter the time, the situation, the field position. It's funny.

I remember watching Antonio Gates rookie year, and I've never been a fantasy football player, so nobody had them on their team. And I've told this story before, you can really see great fast. Eugene Robinson went to Colgate. I was in Cheney, Washington at the camp. I had a program in my hand, and he's lighting up receivers for the Seahawks, lighting them up. And we're all, who's the guy from Colgate, Eugene Robinson? And that's how I felt about Antonio Gates. Like I remember watching him as a rookie and going, undrafted?

I don't even understand this. Do you remember the early recollections of Antonio Gates? I saw him a decent amount toward the latter half of their career in the mid, like 2013, 14, 15 when they play the Raiders. But Colin, he just made the Hall of Fame. He did not play college football. I mean, he did not play college. That will never happen again. Jordan Milata, who's making, I mean, how many people have ever made the Pro Bowl made the NFL?

We've had guys make the NFL rugby guys, you know, wrestlers that didn't play college football. But to make a Pro Bowl and not play college football, you know, Milada is a little unique rugby guy from Australia. Antonio Gates, basketball player. Physically, obviously, both these guys are really gifted. I do think that Antonio Gates, a lot of people, I remember when I was in the NFL, we used to, like, to run studies and scout like 6-3 to 6-5 power forwards, typically smaller schools, you know, maybe like a Kent State, a new, that's where Antonio Gates went, but New Mexico State, whatever, and try to find a body type like that that could translate.

And it only existed because of him. Like if he hadn't existed, no one would have thought like that. And let's face it, there doesn't really exist since. You know, Jimmy Graham at Miami, I think he played his senior year, if I remember correctly. but he was a starter on the basketball team. But there were some guys like Julius Peppers did both. Some guys do both. Like Donovan McNabb do both.

This guy did not play college football at all. And then to go to the NFL and play tight end. And let's face it, when Antonio Gates came into the league in 2003, it was a little more violent and crazy that it is now in terms of the rules, hitting guys. You weren't just running across the middle, willy-nilly going, they can't touch me. No, but I do remember the 2004 season is when he really popped. Because he came in as like a third or four string guy.

But I've always been a Charger fan. So back Dan Fouts, like if you're a West Coast guy, you were always a Charger fan. West Chandler, John Jefferson, Dan Fouts, Chuck Muncie, the great offensive lines. So I've always watched the – I've been kind of a Charger fan. And I think everybody in the West Coast was because the uniforms, the way they play, they were always great offensively. It just didn't matter. Herbert, Philip Rivers, Fouts, they've been good offense.

Like Oregon football. They've always been fun offensively. And I can remember the 2004 season. When he would, he was like, like had a dozen touchdowns and people started saying undrafted and you're like, and then you started, you know, that's again, it's 20 some years ago. But I think I looked, I looked at drafting different. When I saw Antonio Gates in 2004, 2005, it really does make you realize what a crap shoot this league is.

Half the players that are playing in this league, I think it's like 40% are undrafted that are on rosters right now. And that's one of the things about football that I think is so incredibly relatable. In the NBA draft, you get to like 16th pick. You're out of players. Major League Baseball, you have 40 rounds. You can do 40 rounds of drafting. But most of your great players are the first two or three rounds. What's remarkable, the best player ever is Tom Brady's a six-rounder.

You and I could write, if we went back and forth for the next 10 minutes, we could name great players from the third round on. Every fan could. You could name 50 of them. And I think Antonio Gates, if you go back to his career, it really does. I mean, Joe Montana's, I think, was a third-round pick. You know, Brady's sixth, Kurt Warner and Romo, undrafted, Brock Purdy, seventh. So I think, I do think, when I think of Antonio Gates, I think of it's sort of the beauty of pro football in this country, is it is, there's a lot of plumbers in this league. There's a lot of dudes that just started late.

You know, like golf and baseball and hockey, you have to start early. It is a skill that is developed over years, decades of practice. If you play basketball, a lot of those skills work in football, run, jump, catch for a tight end. Yeah. Well, it's why you find people in both if they hit the genetic. You got to have the special genetics to make the pros. But you can meet, find football players, a guy that, yeah, I played in high school. I skipped it to play basketball at a small school, and then I made the Hall of Fame in the NFL.

One thing I learned going to camps, once I left the NFL, and start doing this and look at it more from talking about it and the way fans think you realize I don't waste much time when I was going to camps and specifically doing the Niners and Raiders stuff like talking about the four, fifth, sixth, seventh rounders because every single year those guys get cut and get beat out by undrafted free agents. Hell, the second rounders a lot of times, they don't get cut, but they are lower on the depth chart than the sixth rounder at their same position

because he was better. And two years later, that six rounder is starting. that second rounder is not only a backup, a year later he'll be cut. And then we're a year away from that guy making the Pro Bowl. That six rounders got a big extension. And that is the NFL training camp that undrafted free agents, six seventh rounders. There is a meritocracy, and it's called Be a Good Player, and you will move up at rapid speed. You are on scholarship a little as a higher.

Yes. Definitely is like a top 75 pick. Same in baseball. If you're a first or a second round pick in baseball, you'll make the roster. But it doesn't guarantee you any point. playing time. It doesn't guarantee you a starting spot. It does not guarantee you dressing on game days. So

I think the one thing that separates in football in a lot of positions, toughness, and mental toughness. Because physically, you know, I think Jimmy Johnson always had the thing, is fatigue makes cowards of us all. As you get tired, you stop thinking. So the guys that can think as they're tired truly separating football.

Training camp, all these camps, it's hot. They're throwing, you know, for a lot of these guys that come for some of these offenses and defenses in college, You know, this isn't, most guys aren't running Nick Saban scheme. It's semi-basic at a lot of these colleges. So they get there, it's intense. And these coaches do not lay off the gas pedal on you.

So a lot of guys, it's not there physically they can't play in the NFL. It's mentally it's too much. They don't know what's going on. And then it impacts physically because they start playing slow. It's like you're going to get, you can't, we can't put you on the field. And then they just start getting laughed because the six-rounder, this is a purdy example, just because he's a late round pick, can handle it. right so he can handle it mentally so that if you can handle it mentally because you're getting drafted

you have some physical skill that gives you a huge starting spot so to me the mental edge on players is something it's we don't talk about that much because how do you quantify it you know coaches always say like this guy's smart but what does that really mean it means a lot you know i remember assistant coaches you just tell me it's so easy for everyone in the scouting department to go hey listen this guy's got all the skills. He's an idiot. Not even a great guy, but coach him up. And then he's like, we draft him. And then you guys just hang out in the cafeteria like, how's it going, coach? And I have to deal with them every day. And he's got no clue what's going on. And that's where I think the value of smart guys, when you get the talented smart guy, like an Aaron Donald, a Trent Williams, a Travis

Kelsey, like you got the guy's going to dominate, right? Yeah. I also think, you know, basketball, increasingly in my life has become positionless. Like, LeBron could play 0.2, 3 or 4 in his prime. Right. Like, it's become, I mean, Yokic is the best passing big man, you know, since maybe Bill Walton. Could LeBron play center in 2025? I mean, Yokic is a point center. That didn't exist 10 years ago.

Nobody talked about point centers. But football is position specific. Guards can't play tight end. Tom Brady could play one position. That is it. And he's the greatest player in the history of the league. Lawrence Taylor could maybe have played tight end. He's the best defensive player.

But Reggie White, again, probably wouldn't have been a great tackle, offensive tackle. He's the best defensive tackle of all time. And so it's specific. And I think one of the things you find, and Jimmy Johnson always talked about this, is like in football, I'm always very reluctant on. he's just a great athlete. He just loves playing football. And my take, what does he do well?

Like, it is, it's not positionless. It's like baseball to a large degree. You can be a utility infielder, but generally a first baseman is a third baseman with no range. Right? A third baseman needs range and more athletic ability. That's why Mark McGuire ends over like a DH or he can play first base. The center fielder and the shortstop are your great athletes.

And I think what football does I think the really good drafters. Even receivers now. Is he a boundary guy? Is he a slot guy? You can't just draft a guy because it's like, and I know a lot of teams play zone. I guess my whole point is what makes football difficult to draft is that you have to have

a specific skill. You have to match the coaching staff. You have to stay healthy. There's a lot of things. That's why they're so, go look on every team in this league. You have 55 guys. Take the Eagles out. There's about four really great players on every team.

That's about even the Rams. Stafford's great. Pooka's great. Versus great. And there's a lot of good. There's a lot of good. I also think, like, let's say we do this podcast. And by the end of tomorrow,

250,000 people have listened, watched, right, consume this podcast. That's a, that's a, concrete number, easy to evaluate. If you want to sell it to advertisers, it's very black and white. Or in football, let's say I have, I'm a prospect, and I play at UCLA, and I get 11 sacks. But seven of them came against UC Davis, against New Mexico, and against the worst team in the Big Ten. And I had no sacks when we played, Oregon, Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State.

It's like, well, you know, on all the list, this guy was one of the highest productive guys. double-digit sack guys, Power 4 conference, Big Ten. It's like, well, actually, you know, let's really dive into this. You know, Khalil Mack played at a small school, but he played Ohio State his senior year at three sacks against Taylor Decker. So it was like, I don't really know. Obviously, he's got these physical attributes, but I watched him do it against that team.

And the other thing is there are, you know, in any business, the humans play a role, but when you acquire a company a lot of times, it's a product. It's something that's already kind of like a built-in infrastructure that aren't always human dependent, especially now with technology, right? Where in football, it's never going to change as long as football. You're acquiring a human being. So it's like, how can he handle it? How, like, physically is he tough enough? Because you can get by, this happens in high school a lot. It's why I think a lot of these coaches, like, I'm not giving a high school player a million

I'm at George Ohio State like okay Jeremiah Smith but there's been a lot of Jeremiah Smith that everyone thought was Jeremiah Smith and he gets to college and you never hear of him and he never gets off the bench because this guy's so much better than everyone he's playing in high school right so it's like once you come to the NFL like everyone's a pro so then practice like you're just practicing you're just let's say you play you get first round pick for the Seattle Seahawks or the Arizona Cardinals like practice you're playing against the best players ever just in practice. let alone the games that are about to come. So I think it can really expose you. This is why drafting is so difficult because you're dealing with humans with all these variables that unlike all these other industries, Jimmy Haslam gave a big press conference

like early this week. And he even said like, you know, in all my other industries, like if I want to hire a guy, I can just hire him. If something's going wrong, it's very easy to figure out what. A lot of unknowns in this business. Like, was it a play call?

Is this guy dumb? Is this guy not fast enough? You know, you just don't know. Like the industry we're in, it's pretty black and white. I'd say football has the most variables, even of all the sports. Yeah, I mean, remember the kid from Clemson Simmons that got drafted a few years ago? I think Steve Kime drafted him.

Isaiah the tall kind of hybrid linebacker. And he was just like, holy God, he was a playmaker. And then he goes to the pros and you're like, what is he? Yet, Honey Badger, who wasn't fast enough to be a lockdown corner, Honey Badger had a, what is he exactly? But his instincts were so insane that Honey Badger becomes a great player. And Simmons, I always feel like, left too much on the cutting room floor. That's just not enough.

And I think those are two great players where a lot of people, because of the drug stuff with Honey Badger, were off him. And I remember hearing from a assistant coach at LSU who said, he is the most insane. I've ever seen. I remember watching LSU games with him. If there was a fumble, he was on it. He was literally by any turnover, any tackle. And I'm like, Jesus, this kid couldn't. And so Steve Kime told me that.

He goes, we thought he had the best instincts we'd ever seen. But Simmons came in, and it felt a little bit of, not positionless, but you weren't quite sure. And I always felt he disappointed me. And that's a prime example of football. Like, unless you have incredible instinct. You can be big strong and fast, but you just don't fit a system. Well, think about this.

It's a little dated because he got kicked out of LSU for weed. But at the time, it was a big deal. He got kicked off the program. He did not play his junior year. Thought about coming back, remember, and then he goes pro. He gets drafted in the third round and becomes a team captain for the next four teams he's on. And Patrick Peterson, who at the time was like the best player beside Larry Fitzgerald on the, and Carson Palmer, on the Cardinals, like two years in called Honey Badger,

the heartbeat of the team. So he becomes the team captain of that team. He becomes a team captain of the Texans for a year. Goes to the Chiefs with Andy, Mahomes, Kelsey, becomes a team captain. I got buddies that were around and called him like one of their favorite players they'd ever been around. You just, the guy was kicked out of the team and goes on to become,

honestly, it's an incredible story. Like one of the high character leaders of the league that everyone respected. But the Isaiah Simmons thing, I remember texting someone on a really good team and said, what do you think of this guy? they're like, we really dinged him on the toughness. Obviously, physically, he was a freak. Freak. You watch him, like, we didn't think he was just a hammer.

You know, he's not playing like Hufunga or something down. And that's hard to play when you're like this hybrid. Hufunga was this hybrid guy. What will Hufunga do? He will kill you. You know, why do coaches like whofunga? Because, like, there's a physicality when you're in space. You're either going to be, you better be a lockdown guy

or you kind of got to have a little Cam Chancellor to you, you know, to play. in that roaming hybrid linebacker safety position. Think about Chase Young. I would have bet any amount of money. 10-year all-pro. Where'd he go? I mean, Max Crosby is what we thought Chase Young would be. Clowny.

Yeah, I mean, again, Clownie, a guy that some of these guys are so big in high school. Like they just engulf players. They get a five-star. They go to a big school. They're surrounded by other great players, and they are splash players. Clowny made highlight plays in South Carolina. He's a splash player. But they're physically, they grow up faster than other kids.

They're unblockable. The Andy Katzen-Moyer, legendary, like one of the best high school players ever. They're just too big to guard. And then they go to college, and they're still really good college players, but they're surrounded by five-star guys. They're really good guys. So they get, you know, singularly blocked. And they have some splash plays.

But, and then they go to the- I thought, Naji Harris, who was when I was living in the Bay Area was, I think, the number one high school recruits in the state of California. Harbaugh wanted him bad. Obviously, Saban ended up getting him. He didn't really play at a high level until a senior year in high school. I remember texting someone around the program. They're like, well, he kind of looked like a college guy at 16 years old.

And, you know, I think Harbaugh, I thought it was a little bit of an overpay. Obviously, he had the Fourth of July incident. But why did Harbaugh sign him? Because he's loved him since, you know, when he tried to sign him at Michigan. I think a lot of you talked to some other people around the league, they're like, And Najee Harris, not our cup of tea. But Najee Harris is a good example of, in high school, Najee Harris was a grown man playing against high school kids.

And that's why he went to Alabama. When you want to enjoy life's simpler pleasures, reach for Green River Whiskey, whether it's rye whiskey or single barrel bourbon. You're getting over a century of craftsmanship packed into every bottle. Hop on over to greenriverwiskey.com and discover a legend in a bottle today. All right, John Midlakov and I for an hour, we're getting very close.

We are getting very, very close to the football season. And I'll kind of tell you, John, I have played 11 rounds of golf this summer. That's setting a new record for me. And for years and years, my wife would always say, you know, you've got to find a hobby. What are you going to do? You're 60. You got to find a hobby at some point. And I'm like, I told her this weekend.

I said, I was going to learn French. I was going to learn their language. I was going to get into drawing, kind of stick figure drawing. I was going to take a drawing class. And I said, you know what I learned about myself? My hobby has to be moving. I got to be moving. And this weekend, I said, I love golf.

I love playing golf. I found my hobby. And so I think for the last 10 years I've been looking for a hobby. my wife's just been joking over and over. She's like, you keep telling me, you bought a wine story because you thought it was going to be wine, and then it was drawing, then you were going to learn French. I'm not addicted, but I think about golf now.

The minute I get on a plane to go and hang out, that's what I'm thinking about. I think it's got a lot of attributes that you would enjoy. One, you can have a cocktail while you're doing it outside. So in the sun. And I do think an underrated part, even if you're playing with someone you don't know that well, you can have really good conversations about a lot of different things.

It is a very conversational. It's not, you know, you got to get, if you want to work out, you probably got to do it separate of golf. I would not call it much of a physical activity if you're in the cart. A little walking, depend on the course. But to me, where the social element, because I'm with you, I love it, but like I haven't played in three weeks. I don't need to, like, I'm not addicted to where I always got to be on the course.

I use it as just a vehicle sometimes to get out. but it does bring a social element into my life that I could easily avoid as I just go tunnel vision of work and my wife and not doing much. It gets me outside gets me, gets you talking. And it's a couple of cocktails usually involved. It's, you rarely have a bad time, especially in the summer. You get a little sweat outside, enjoy yourself, maybe a cocktail after too. Like you pull into the clubhouse or the outside bar. Oh, have a cold one.

No, it's, um, and I got my group of guys in Rhode Island. and I just, I always understood why guys liked that I just didn't have time for it. But I got to tell you, my whole life I've been looking for a hobby and I found it. And I told my wife, and I told her this yesterday, I said, you know, you've been laughing for years that I can't. My wife's like, your work's your hobby. You love podcasting. You love doing that. You like reading about sports.

And I'm like, yeah, but I need something else. And exercise isn't a hobby. It's just exercise. And I found it. I'm just so there you go. That's the only extra hobby you need. That's sports and golf. That's your life.

That's it. And my dogs. All right, buddy. Take it easy. See you soon. The volume. Hey, guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers.

I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it.

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