The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts - Ant The New “Face Of The NBA”? Nick Wright On Colin’s “Backwards Hat” Take, No Violins For Kirk Cousins

Episode Date: May 11, 2024

Colin’s top takes of the week! He explains why the on-air chemistry of Inside The NBA is so good and so rare that NBC needs to be extremely careful to ensure the crew stays together (2:00) Then he��s joined by Jason Timpf, host of “Hoops Tonight” to debate whether Anthony Edwards could become the next “face of the league” (6:30) make their projections for Caitlin Clark in the WNBA (16:30) and address what offseason moves the Phoenix Suns need to make after getting swept in the first round (25:00). Then, Colin is joined by Nick Wright, host of “First Things First” on FS1! They address the backlash to Colin’s  “backwards hat” take from J.J. Reddick and LeBron James (31:00). They talk about the history of the take, why it’s become a running bit, and why it shouldn’t be taken too seriously.  Colin argues that the Bengals are one more Joe Burrow injury away from needing to draft an early round quarterback (37:30) and Nick explains why he won’t be playing any violins for Kirk Cousins (40:00) They give their reactions to the Roast of Tom Brady (46:00 and Nick shares a story of the time when he participated in a roast… and it backfired spectacularly (53:00) Finally, they push back on Austin Rivers’ comment that 30 NBA players could play in the NFL and they list the much shorter list of players that actually could make the jump to football (55:00). Don’t forget to check back for part two of the conversation with Nick! (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates! #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard,

but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. The volume. This week on Prime Cuts, Jason Timpth on Ant.

Can he become the face of the league? Nick Wright on a bunch of stuff. And my top takes of the week. So I've been reading about NBC attacking NBA basketball negotiations, and if they took them from TNT, what would they do with the inside the NBA crew? Well, first of all, the inside the NBA crew sometimes is better than the actual games, especially in the regular season. I think it would be a huge mistake to break him up. Now, Ernie Johnson, who is the host, the affable host, the beloved host, who, you know,

he just moves the pieces around. He gets out of the way. He is perfect. I do believe you could find another host. You'd never replace Ernie in terms of just how the players feel about Ernie. You'd have to get a host that the players voted on. You couldn't just insert somebody from another network and say, make it work. Ernie has so much respect and admiration from the crew. Now, Barclay obviously drives the number. And Ernie Johnson would be the first to admit that. Shack and Charles really have, you know, some nights they're feuding. Other nights, they're hysterical laughing at each other. Kenny Smith more of the straight man. But it reminds me a little bit of the Fox broadcasting crew on Sundays where Bradshaw was the funny guy, Howie's the straight man, Jimmy Johnson's the

coach, and he really is a coach in real life and on the set. He kind of runs it all. And then Kurt Men if he knows when to jump in, push the buttons, poking the ribs, move out. Then you have Strahan Jay Glazer. But there are, there's usually a star of a show, a straight man, and Ernie provides hosting capabilities that the respect and the admiration he has from the guys is kind of, you won't find another Ernie, but it is led by Charles. And I think when you lose an Ernie, and that's losing something, then you have to take all of them. As great as Charles Barkley is, the chemistry is a big part of this. And in my years of doing radio and TV, and I've been doing this now 30 years, it's the one thing that the really good executive,

executives have always understood and the average executives overlook is chemistry. I've had multiple partners, radio TV, but yet I've had one or two shows that chemistry was outstanding. It's hard to explain. It's hard to foster. There's just like, you know, it. It just works. Maybe there's a mutual respect. You have something in common. Somebody finishes your sentences. But if you're going to lose Ernie, who has reportedly said, hey, I'm staying with TNT. and your NBC and you're going to bring that crew over if they did, in fact, win the rights, you've got to lean on that crew and they've got to make that higher. They've got to have run through after run through because the idea you can just insert an NBC guy into that and it's going to work,

that would be an executive that doesn't understand fit. And I think a lot of times, you know, the Fox crew or the inside the NBA crew, it's hard. Chemistry is hard on these shows. I mean, Stephen A. Smith at ESPN, he and Max Kellerman. At some point, Stephen A went public and said, yet, this just doesn't work. Skip and Shannon worked for a while. Then it didn't work. Mike and the bad dog in New York, I listened to them for years. I thought it was really good. I could tell on the air when they got tired of each other. They got real snippy at each other, very impatient with each other. You could just feel it. It was like you're driving in the car on the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut. I'm driving, you know, going to the city or coming out, and I'm going to the city or coming out. listening for an hour and a half. I got a long listen. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not sure this sounds right. And I just, I think my overall point on this is inside the NBA works. Yes, Charles is the star, but it works because of chemistry. It's terrific. They all like each other. They all respect each other. And it's like an NBA locker room. It takes one turd to ruin it.

Because it's a, you're flying together, you're eating together, you're hanging out. It's not like an NFL locker room. Offense goes here. Defense goes there. Base You know, during the game, a third of the rosters down in the bullpen. Man, you get, you get these crews, you got four or five guys, one bad fit, blows it up, blows it up. And I think they've done such a good job. It is, to me, during the regular season, I generally like the show more than the games. Now, once the playoffs start, I'm into the games. But I think you can't, people are going to watch the NFL regardless of how good or bad the shows are.

But the NBA's different. It's a long regular season. Even the players, there's a lot of apathy. Inside the NBA in my lifetime is very unique. Where I'll stick around for that. I mean, I can think Fox does a great job. And NBC and the NFL's not quite as good. But I'm watching the games.

That's not the case. Inside the NBA gets me to a TV during the regular season when sometimes I'm not sure the players even care. All right, NBA playoffs and full swing. Jason Timp, host of, of hoops tonight is joining us. If you look, Jason, the face of the league right now is really Tatum's personality. He really is a giver.

He's never a taker. You almost have to push him, nudge him to take. So he doesn't, he looks like to me he loves being an all-star, making good money and winning games. He doesn't have any real agenda to be the face of the league. Yokic, most of the European guys are not interested. So like, it's open for Am. Wembe's not there yet. Yokic isn't interested.

You know, Yonis has never really moved the needle in terms of like ratings. M. B's not healthy. So as I'm watching him, first half, he was insane. And then he was very quiet in the third. But as I'm watching him, I'm like, you know, Jordan had these dead quarters. I mean, Michael was classic for when his head would steam. You're like, okay, Michael's on one. And then Michael, Michael really got, he was like a great baseball pitcher that he knew the 12 pitches he had to get people out.

Like Michael knew gear shift. LeBron's gotten very good at that. Like, LeBron's always hoping his teammates get the game going. And if they don't, then he steps in. And then at the seven-minute mark, they get him out. But I watched Ant, and I'm like, don't be too critical of him. 25 points in an NBA game and a half is a lot of work. That's a lot of energy.

And then in the second half, you're like, first of all, dumb tech. Talk about that all day. But my take was, my take was kind of like it's there for the taking. it feels like Denver's not equipped on the bench. You know, they could die to have a six man who could play 20 minutes of defense. This may be the moment. All these great stars have moments. It took Jordan years and years.

The difference is Jordan had like iconic teams, Pist and Celtics in front of him. Denver hasn't risen to that. So as good as the West is, Jason, it feels like this is the moment to seize it. It's absolutely there for the taking. Again, I still think Denver is going to win this series. I certainly think it's way too early to just to bail on them entirely. An important element to that game, too, is they spotted Minnesota an 18 to 4 lead. And Michael Malone talked after the game, Jamal Murray didn't practice all week because of his calf.

KCP's got a bad ankle. So, like, they were easing their way into the series in a lot of ways. Also, just a little brief story, like, I play a lot of pickup basketball. But then during the summer, a lot of the college kids around town and the guys who play overseas, they come home and I work out with them. And there's always like an adjustment for me going from lower level competition to higher level competition. And there's no doubt that Minnesota is a much higher level defense than the Lakers were. And so there's going to be a little bit of like a, oh, that pass, I need to put a little more on it.

I need to be more accurate. I can't be as sloppy with my handle. This shot that I got off against Austin Reeves, I won't be able to get off against Jaden McDaniels. Like all these, there's going to be an adjustment period for Denver in this series to kind of get used. to that offense. That said, as far as Ant goes, like, it's, there's still so much room for him to improve because that quiet third quarter, it got tired. You could tell Aunt got tired in that game. So there's going to be an energy management piece that he figures out. There's going to be like a reading the floor better piece that he figures out. There's like, there was a little bully ball

possession on Reggie Jackson where he just walked, it was the play he got the tech. He walked him right underneath the rim and put it in it. It was the easiest bucket he got all night. Like, there's going to be a point where he realizes all these guards can't guard him. And he starts destroying people even closer to the rim. And so the sky is the limit for him. I got in trouble with Celtics fans for comparing the two of them. It was a mailbag question. But then I started thinking about it. I'm like, no, this is a real thing here. This is who's the next great American player? Because there is something to be said about being the best American player in the NBA from a marketability standpoint, right? Sure. Like there's a reason why a huge portion of my

listeners are overseas. It's because the best players in the league are all from overseas. And so they've got these huge fan bases from Serbia and in the Philippines and things like that. There's all these guys that are that are supporting these players. And we need an American star that can come up and kind of take the mantle. And to your point, like Jason Tatum has, he just doesn't quite have the personality for it. But the biggest piece and the main reason why I think Ant is better than him has to do with the athleticism piece. Ant can have Bradley Beal on the wing and just utterly blow by him off the dribble. and then dunk on Kevin Durant like he's not even there.

And it's not to say that Jason Tatum hasn't had big dunks in his career because he's got great size, but his first step is not nearly as dynamic as Anthony Edwards is. And so when he faces a really good defender in a late game situation, he can struggle to get to his spots sometimes. Ant never struggles getting to his spot. Like he's going to get a good look up. It's just a question of whether or not he can make it.

And to his credit, the two big things that he's figured out that have been his inflection between the Dominique and MJ kind of like a fork in the road. The split for him has been, he's been better at reading the floor. He was the guy who got Nasree going last night. It was the Bankton three. That was a kickout from Ant when his man helped. The driving and one on the baseline, that was a skip pass from Ant when he was reading a pick and roll coverage. And then the second piece of it is that jump shooting piece.

He is deadly in that 14 to 18 foot range. And so he has a shot he can go to where it's like this is going to go in a majority. of the time, it gives him like a certain level of resilience in the playoffs. And so I just think, I think he's just better. I think he's the best American player in the league of that generation. And I think he has a chance to take that mantle. Well, to be the best player, it's like being the best country Western star. It's not just your songs are popular and easy to dance to. There's often something that's, it really touches people. If you look at the faces of the league, I don't know if he was a face of a league, but the first player that caught my attention in the 70s,

was Dr. Jay. Nobody played like that, right? Nobody played like that, his hand size. And then after that, was Magic Johnson. We'd never had a six, eight and a half point guard. And then it was Larry Bird alongside Magic. We'd never had a forward easily be the best shooter and passer in the league. Like he didn't play, he played like a two guard.

And then you go into Shaq. Okay, that's, there's nothing been that powerful. Big guys don't run the floor. And then, you know, and before him, it's Michael, the greatest player of all time with great flair. Kobe was never really the face of the league, but was like Michael Light. Then you go into LeBron, arguably the greatest player, the great Swiss Army United States, that does everything differently.

So all those players were like, to some degree, a little bit of unicorns athletically or they had a dimension of their game. They still show Dr. J's dunk against Michael Cooper. It's still the greatest dunk in league history in a game. It's the 70s. It's 50 years ago with all these athletes. So with Anske, I've watched Jayson. and Tatum live three times. I've watched them 100 times. He's very good. It's not historically

unique looking. He's just really clever and really smooth, good two-way player. Ant does stuff and you're like, okay, sorry to put the drink down. I got to watch the replay on that. Like, even NBA guys are like, whoa, whoa, you see him come off the bench. So Wembe has some of that. Wembe could block eight blocks a game. You know, I mean, he could have a stretch. Like nobody looks like that. So I do think Ant's advantage is there's a lot of wow stuff. I mean, I remember when Shaq came in the league, Jerry Tarkini, and I covered him at UNLV. He told me when Shaq was a sophomore,

I was at a place called the late Jerry Tarkini, and I covered him in Vegas at a place called Sharks or Tarks or Sharks. And we were sitting at a bar, me and a guy named John Henderson, a retired sports writer now in Italy. And he said, there's a kid named Shaquille O'Neal at Elshu. And he goes, I know you've seen highlights. He's going to be the greatest basketball player you've ever seen when he plays.

And, you know, Jerry was a very good recruitment. And, you know, and he just said, there's never been anything like him. And that's kind of the sentence for the faces of the league. There's never been anything like him. And my take is he's a little Dominique, a little Michael. I mean, what's his comp? That feels like the right counts. He's bigger and stronger than the other two guards that came before him too.

Like, he's got a little bit of like the downhill force that. you saw from Dwayne Wade, but he's bigger and a better shooter, right? He's got a lot of, he's got some of the, the, like the footwork stuff from the mid to high post. But again,

like he's, he's got like a strength and a power element to his game that even MJ and Kobe didn't have. So like, in a weird way, this is the beautiful thing about basketball history is every, every player,

it's very rare to have a guy like Kobe who's like almost the spitting image of the guy he was trying to be like, right? Like Kobe and MJ were so similar. or Ants kind of got his own unique flare on it. It's like, it's like Dwayne Wade meets better jump shooting meets the body of a middle

linebacker in the NFL. Like it's it's hard, it's hard to describe. But like and then again, the big piece of it is like, this guy's going to Kevin Durant and he's like, yeah, you're my favorite player, but you know, I'm busting your ass, right? It's like this weird like shit talking mixed with respectful mixed with like incredible

aggression, but he's also just got this huge personality and that to me is a big part of marketability element where like I could see him being a superstar in the league for decades. All right, Caitlin Clark topic. So, and this is just off the top of my head. But if you look at players who have missed, and I don't watch enough WNBA to have a strong opinion, but if you look at basketball in general on players that miss college to pro, it's a lot of bigs, a lot of injury issues. Sometimes bigs come into the league and they just, they're a little old school, it's new school,

they get pushed around, teammates, coaches, lose confidence. Generally, point guards, I mean, I mean, listen, if you're quick, if you distribute, you can shoot a little bit, it's hard to bust. You can find a space for a guy maybe in rotation. So, and I always feel that way with shooters. If you're quick and you can get a good shot and you can shoot, the league's just neat. It's not a lot of guys that can really shoot that have been busts. They'll find a way, even if you're an awful defensive player, they'll bring you off the bench,

they'll put you in patterns so you're not having to guard the best defensive players. So like Caitlin Clark, there's a sense is, oh, she's going to be a can't miss. Well, even in the NFL, there is no can't miss. There are no can't misses. My take on her, though, is she is really quick. She has tremendous court awareness. So players are going to like playing with her. Like at Iowa, you know, she makes great passes.

People can't finish. Like people now can finish in the WNBA. So, and also she just, she gets a shot and she's a devastating shooter. So I do see her transforming the league. I don't think we've seen a shooter like that in the league. And I also think, again, her court awareness, playing with better finishers, people are going to want to play with her. But even if she struggles, she'll get other people involved and she'll draw so much attention.

What is your guess on what kind of player she is? Is she a first team all WNBA? Because I just don't have, you know, the length is much different in the WNBA. like 6, 6, 6, 7 is everybody's got those level players. So you don't get the freebies down low. You know, in college, you can get some real cheap baskets, men's and women's. I think she's going to be a star, but I have no, nothing to judge it on. I mean, you're, I mean, Cheryl Miller was bigger, taller.

I mean, there's certain times you look at athletes and you just go, Candace Parker, that's going to work. But a shooting guard from Iowa, I don't know. What do we make of it? So I actually view the. college game as more challenging to score than people think. And there's a bunch of reasons for that. One, like, look at that Iowa team. There are a lot of girls on that team that couldn't shoot, right? So, like, the spacing isn't as good. One of the things that's interesting to me about college

hoops is the athleticism is always much further along than the offensive skill development. So, like, it's actually like a lot of, and then the coaching is really good and the level of intensity on a game-to-game basis is really, really high. So it's actually really difficult. to score at the college level. And to your, I actually 100% agree with you on your take on like the safety of a player, like the like an offensively skilled player being kind of bust proof in the sense that like the vast majority of players that demonstrated they could score at the college level, get into the NBA and they're able to score.

And it's because there's usually- Now, Jim for Debt was a very small player by NBA standard. She's not, I mean, so there are people that just can't defend it all. She's not small. She's not, you know, Caitlin's got some size to her as well. Like, you're not going to push her around either. She's a feisty player. Yeah, absolutely.

And like, I thought that was one of the first things that, first of all, such a statement to me about just the type of phenomenon that Caitlin Clark is that like I was covering a game that day. I think it was, I think it was the, it might have been the Nuggets Wolves game. I can't remember. I was watching a game for my job that day. And I literally got my phone up. downloaded the WMBA app and I watched it. I was like, I texted my wife. My wife was at the airport flying home from Chicago and I texted her and I was like, hey, like, Caitlin Clark's playing on the WMBA app right now.

She stopped everything she was doing and she downloaded the app and she watched the game, which just goes to show you the type of phenomenon that she is. But like, as I was watching, like she can get separation from these girls. In addition to that, like everyone always focuses on like, oh, the athleticism goes up a level. All this gets more difficult, but basketball doesn't work like that. you're not just playing one-on-one all game long. Like you're running sets, you're doing things that are designed to generate openings, and she has the skill to make shots in those openings.

And so it was such a, I don't know what it is about Caitlin, and maybe it is her fame, but there seems to be this segment that's almost like rooting for her to fail. It's kind of bizarre to me. I don't understand it. But the truth of the matter is, is like she might have certain matchups, like she might run into specific defenders at the devil's,

at the WMBA that give her some issues. She's going to have off-shooting nights. She's going to have, because she's new at this, she's going to have stretches where it doesn't look as pretty. But to me, it's a pretty safe bet that she's going to score a lot of baskets in the WNBA for a long time. The NBA playoffs are heating up. Man, they have been so good.

I know it's over, but Lakers Nuggets may have been a five-game series. It was great. Nicks, Sixers, amazing. Why don't you sign up for the Draft King Sportsbook app? It takes 90 seconds. The official sports betting partner of the NBA. If you're in Draft Kings, once you sign up, you've got to check this out. New customers bet $5 to get $150 in bonus bets instantly.

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Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on. on 10 pounds. I was having trouble

stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'll say it. Yep, that's me,

Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

to my brain. new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast.

Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun, thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of Ton Ton, and wampas on the ice planet hot, or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcasts. You live in Arizona, and we've talked about this, is that you can get more for Booker. But remember, Phoenix was not good pre-Christ Paul, so he's not a leader guy, and he can't carry a franchise. And then you disappointed this year with Durant and Beal around Booker. Booker's your classic, you know, cat shoot. I don't think he's a great athlete. He's just a, he's a dependable 25, 26 a night. He can be really streaky and get into the 35 for long stretches. Like, he's a crazy streak shooter. But I think you make the mistake if you, like in Orlando, if Orlando made a move, Boncaro is your one, to me, it feels like. And Booker comes in is a really good too, but I want another score at the forward, you know, another, some size, some length. So like, if

You're Phoenix. Now, Beal and Kevin Durant. Well, if you get rid of Booker, I got to get some young players over here because those guys are going to miss some spots, although Durant played a ton this year. So my take is, you're Phoenix. You can bring it all back, but there are issues. You don't have a classic point guard. You don't have much of a bench. So those are real issues. You can keep bringing stuff back, but it's like at some point you have holes, right? We see, like Milwaukee, you can bring it all back and they may have to because they don't have a lot of assets and this is an old or they're all locked up. I don't think that many people want.

I think, Dame, you could move in Janus, but they don't want to move those two. So my takeaway is you watch a lot of Suns basketball. Who would you move? Where would you move them? Because it feels like, to me, people are going to make, they're going to get more phone calls

than any team in the league. Because there's a lot of New York Knicks and Orlando's out there looking at Phoenix. Thinking it ended poorly. You know, they want to get out of stuff. They don't want to say it publicly. Phoenix is saying, hey, we're bringing the band back together, but it's a flawed team.

Vogel likes Biggs. It's not built for him. What would you do? You have to say that to you. You can't be like, yeah, oh yeah, fire sale this summer. You come and get him. But as far as I'm concerned, so much of this comes down to how you view Booker. And a lot of Suns fans view him as like a bona fide franchise cornerstone.

And the thing they point to there is the 2021 season. But it's like, okay, hold on a second. Let's filter through that. The conference finalist out West was a team led by Paul George, okay, without Kauai Leonard. And Trey Young made the conference finals out east. Like it was, they won,

the Bucks won that series with Yana said in a hyper-extended knee over the last couple of games. So like, really that was the weird COVID season where all the good teams got hurt. All the good teams got hurt. The Lakers got hurt. The Nuggets got hurt.

The Miami Heat got hurt. Like everyone was hurt in that season. So like it was kind of this gap year, totally legitimate championship for the Bucks. But like the Sun's getting to the finals, I think got them to believe in Devin Booker as this like franchise cornerstone. I look at Devin Booker more as like the Kyrie Irving type of archetype.

If I could put him next to a real franchise player and he can just focus on being a late game shot maker slash guy that can spell your star for stretches and run the offense, that's the kind of fit that I like. And so when I look at the Sun situation, Bradley Beale, I think is a really good player. But his trade values low because he's older, injury prone and on a long term deal that pays him a shit ton of money, right? Kevin Durant, really good player, but old. and just in a situation where he doesn't have as much value around the league.

Devin Booker is a guy that you can trade and get a haul. And so what I was pitching is like, have the self-awareness to embrace the fact that Devin Booker's not going to be your franchise cornerstone and then be like, okay, well, how do we turn this situation into something more fun? I would call Orlando

and I'd be like, hey, you got you got Palo Boncaro, but you just lost a series to the Cavs because nobody can create a shot other than Palo and no one can make jumpers. So, like, you need somebody that can come in and just be, like, a skill guard next to Palo Boncaro. And so I would call them, and I'd be like, I want Jalen Suggs, I want Jonathan Isaac,

and I want Wendell Carter Jr. That's a lot. That is a whole. Those are three really good young players. Hey, Suggles was viewed as a bust six months ago. Exactly. And to Suggs's credit, he's turned himself into one of the best

permanent defenders in the league and a good three-point shooter, right? Like, he's a very valuable archetype. So now, if I'm, the Sons, I'm looking at it. And by the way, you might be able to even coax Orlando and throwing you a draft pick or two in that deal. Who knows, depending on how that conversation would go. But then I look at it and I'm like, okay, now I've got, I've got Jalen Suggs, an elite point of attack defender, something Phoenix did not have last year. I've got Bradley Beal Steel is still a high powered number two. I've got Kevin Durant, Jonathan Isaac, two really rangy long wings that can do a lot

defensively. And I'm going from Yusuf Nirkage, an old, a slow-footed big center to Wendell Carter Jr. who is a big, strong, athletic young center who can shoot the three ball. And so it kind of creates like a more fun Phoenix Sun's team. And it's just an acknowledgement of the reality that you weren't going to be able to rebuild around Booker and then go into these series with him as the best player. Because like, if you go into a series of Devin Booker as your best player, or into a playoff run, you're going to run into a lot of teams that have better players than Devin Booker. You just are. And so that's, that problem's not going away. And if I'm Orlando, I'm looking at it like, Palo is a franchise cornerstone.

But clearly this build where it's like we're big and strong and athletic, but nobody can shoot, no one can dribble, no one can pass. Yeah, they can't shoot. That's not working either. And so I look at that as like, we'll figure out the rest later. Give me Devin Booker at age 27. Yeah. Next to my young star who just average 27 points per game in a seven game series against an elite

defense when no one else on his team could make anything and he had to do everything. It was a really impressive series from Powell. He's got a lot of that physical imposition on the game that is super valuable. We bring in my buddy Nick Wright. We chop it up on a variety of topics. I must as well start with a very serious topic, which is near and dear to me. How do you feel about this, that this is what you're going to be known for? Honest to God.

How do you feel about it? I mean, it's now gotten to, you know, LeBron. And shout out to we'll all let you. you set it up at your podcast, you set it up, but go ahead. Well, LeBron reacted to it and J.J. Reddick reacted to it. So this started years ago. I think it was Tony Romo. I was at the other place, ESPN.

And Tony Romo was doing something at the podium. And it's always been about the weekly Wednesday podium when you're a franchise quarterback. I don't care if you're any other position. I don't care about offseason. I care about the quarterback face of the franchise on a Wednesday podium looking like, you know, you're the face of the franchise because you are the coach on the field. and the highest paid player usually. And so I said something about it.

And Steve Spurrier was the college coach at South Carolina. And in his weekly media session, he literally said in his Southern voice, no, I was listening to a radio host, Colin Coward, say something here. And I really agreed with him. And, you know, he went on about it. He said, I kind of liked it. And I kind of agreed with it. And so I thought, see, I'm not that crazy.

That's not a bad idea. So then I did it a couple more times. Now, it's gotten a life of its own. And I think most people now, well, I shouldn't say that. I think a big chunk of people sort of get I'm being theatrical and my outrage is somewhat manufactured. I don't love it. But it comes from a real opinion. Yeah.

You have, you have the further along it's gone, the more, I don't want to say ridiculous, but it's become a thing, which I'm totally. here for. But the, and we've talked to this once before, and I'm going to reiterate the point and actually tie it back to today's thing, which is, even if people vehemently disagree with you on the specifics of backwards hat or forwards hat, everyone if they're being honest should be able to admit, we all have a backwards hat thing. that makes us judge people. Like there is there. So it can be as simple as,

oh, that person who I thought was like a big time, you know, power broker. Oh, he doesn't match his belt to his shoes. Like,

oh, he's not as sophisticated as I thought. Or again, I'm just making that up. So here's what I found so funny about today. I don't really give a shit. that JJ Reddick was wearing a backwards hat at all. You know what I, you know what happened today, though,

that gave me another piece of evidence that said, I would not hire JJ Reddick right now to be the head coach of Los Angeles Lakers. What? That he responded to the clip. That to me was far more damning than his hat. It's like, buddy, you can't, three days ago I saw you on the internet arguing with a San Francisco radio producer. Now you're watching clips of Howard talking about you, L-O-Ling it.

Like, I just, I don't think you're going to go from that level of internet engagement, maybe even searching your own name, all that stuff that people do. By the way, and I'm not judging them for it. But I don't think it'd be healthy to do as the head coach of Los Angeles Lakers. And I don't think you'd turn it off in a week. So I don't care about the hat. I care that he reacted to the clip. Like, I really do.

do. And by the way, I wouldn't care at all if it was like a broadcaster, like just in his current job, react to whatever you want. But a different job we're talking about now, which again, I don't think you would care about the backward tat if it's just he's the NBA announcer, but if it's like, oh, you're going to be the head coach of my team. So I get it. I actually get it. Well, I mean, if you don't think appearance matters, your daughter's on the emergency table in a hospital and a surgeon came in in a suit and they put his white or a blue robe over it or a backwards hat. What would you prefer?

Or your pilot on a plane came in or he had his hat backwards, which would you prefer to turbulent night? Well, and so, and I also think, you know, LeBron responded with two pictures. And I wasn't sure who the first. guy was because the second guy's Jason Kidd. And it's like, oh, he's done a great job. And it's like, yeah, but Jason Kidd also. And JJ has this going for him as well. Like, you know, former athlete. Former athlete turned coaches a little different, which is where I think JJ probably has more of a, you know, margin for error here. But the other guy was like, who is that? And then we figured it out.

It's the guy who owns the jazz. Well, at some point, you like, you succeed out. of happy, like now all of a sudden you never have to wear a suit. Like, I don't know if you watched the show billions, but the main, I know it's fictional, but the main character Bobby Axelrod, who was the billionaire, and he'd go to work.

Everyone's wearing a suit. He's wearing a Metallica t-shirt because it's like, ah, I own the place I kind of can. Like, yes, there is that element to it. But, um, but I love it. I think it is my, I mean, it is so funny

that four times a year I know. I'm like, oh, Well, half of Colin's show is taking care of for no reason. And because there's always new people in the ecosystem, there are people who this is their first experience with you and backwards hat. And so they don't get any of, again, not that it's a joke, but that this has been a 20-year thing. And those people replying are the best.

They're like, this guy, you got, I mean, it is the best. And you don't have to explain the joke. Just let them go. It's the best. I do think one more injury and the Bengals have to draft another quarterback near the top first, second, third round. I think that's becoming a reality. This is why I defended. I said this today about Michael Pennix.

Last year, the Falcons had no good quarterbacks and couldn't win a bad division. This year, they'll have the two best quarterbacks, and you're complaining about it? Like, 66 quarterbacks played. we're getting to a point with Burrow that it's a real discussion. You've got to have at least a B backup. Now, Brady didn't like it because he never got hurt with Garapolo. And Big Ben, similarly, hey, I'm still, I can still chug along. My injuries are fine.

But I think Burrow is going to have to own, hey, this team needs a backup. And not a six-rounder, maybe a third-rounder when we have other needs. So I think that's a real discussion that Joe and. and the Bengals have to have. For sure. You mentioned Pennix. So I'm glad you mentioned that. Because I want to talk about both those quarterbacks for a moment.

I have not understood the tiny violins for Kirk Cousins that have been out. Yeah, you know, do I? Here's the deal, man. And this is going to sound shitty. And I don't mean it too, but it's honest. Kirk Cousins is not good enough to get everything he wants. That's the thing. if Kurt Cousins is good, he is not good enough to get, so do I, I want to play in the worst division

in football, no problem. I want to play in a dome. We can do that. I want to have another massive payday with $100 million guaranteed. Okay, we can do that too. I want to have a lot of weapons. You know what, we've got that. I don't want to have any competition whatsoever.

Sorry, Kirk can't give you that one. That's right. You don't, like, he is good enough to get a lot, but not everything. And when you are something. of a football mercenary, if you will, you have taken money and moved, whatever, and to his credit, there is a tradeoff in everything in life. One of those things is you haven't built up the equity within the organization for them to be like, oh, man, he's going to hate this.

They just met you. Like, sorry. Like, the person I feel for in this is pinnics. that like if sports broadcasting worked the way the NFL does and I'm coming out of Syracuse and I'm considered one of the three or four best in the world and I'm like oh man there's this spot in this radio station in Las Vegas that might pick me that has openings all over the place there's a radio station in Denver that might pick me that has openings all over the place And then all of a sudden I get picked by a radio station in Atlanta and they're like, buddy,

all our shows are filled up, but we think in two years maybe you'll have one. Be like, you got to be kidding me. All these other places wanted me to play. Like, by the way, I went to grad school. I'm old. Like, you're talking about me. Like, I'm not going to get on the air until I'm 26. Like, this sucks.

And so I, everyone was like, oh, man, Kirk's so disappointed. And I was sitting there thinking, like, I get. that he gets the money or whatever. But Pinnix, the difference between being the eighth pick and the 13th pick is not a ton of money. He was going to be get first round guaranteed money no matter what. And now he's got to sit. So, and again, maybe it ends up being good for him. And he's in a dome and he has the weapons.

But if we're going to feel badly for either of these two quarterbacks, it's not the guy who just left his team, got a hundred million bucks. It coming off in Achilles. It's not him that I feel badly for it. Yeah, I mean, I would say Kirk Cousins, and there's people like this in every industry, has monetized his position to the highest possible level. Yes. Brady took pay cuts. Tim Duncan took pay cuts.

Yeah. In the history of football, Kirk Cousins has monetized his talent to the greatest level and deserves great respect for that. But to your point, Kirk, Tom Brady. Yeah, Tom Brady can. say Bruce Ariens, go upstairs. Yeah, Kirk Cousins isn't going to say that to a coach. Right. That's the thing is you don't, if you, the only people who get everything they want in their

work life are the absolute apex best. and if you are the, if you are the very best in your field, you can kind of write the contract. If you are that still super valuable, but there's seven or eight people better than you, then you're going to get most of what you want, but not all of it.

And I just think that's normal. Like I, it doesn't, I didn't, and I'm an empathetic person. I can cry at the good enough tweet. You know, I don't know, somebody put out a tweet the other day. It was like,

my dad wrote me these letters every morning before school growing up. I read it, I tear it up. I'm like, oh, my God. Like, I really think I'm an empathetic person. But I didn't feel a moment where I'm like,

oh, poor Kirk cousins. It's like what? Because you don't want to, because you deserve to not have to compete. And you're not even really competing. Like, it's your job. You're really going to have to screw up to not have it.

be your job. I don't get it. I just don't get it. Hey, everyone, it's Jason Tip, host of Hoops Tonight. Make sure you check us out live after games on the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel as we provide instant reaction and analysis of all the big NBA playoff games. Again, that's the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel

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Hey, this is Robert from the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast. Joe and I are both lifelong Star Wars fan, so we're celebrating May the 4th with a brand new week of fun thought-provoking Star Wars-related episodes. Join us as we tackle science and culture topics from a galaxy far, far away, such as the biology of tauntons and wampas on the ice planet hot,

or the practicality and corporate business sense of the Sith rule of two. Listen to stuff to blow your mind on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So I'm divorced, and my ex-wife and I have a fine relationship. We don't talk much anymore, but it was always very,

Um, um, respectful. Sure. So I totally get that it's a roast. I totally get it. Um, but I do hear the Giselle jokes. And, and I think to myself, uh, that's a little rough for me. Like I, I thought about this. I couldn't believe he signed up for it.

Yeah. I thought. thought if somebody wanted to roast me, the first thing I would think about is I got to protect my kids, right? That's the first thing I would. That's almost the first thing I think about always, is how is this going to land for my kids? And when I listened to the jokes, I thought a lot of it was hilarious. But I think I would have said, hey, I don't, I don't want you going after my kids' But then, right, but that's, but that's, so here's the thing that, but it's a roast. So I don't watch this is a, I'm sure there's a word for it.

I, I don't watch roasts because there's a level of like that secondhand embarrassment thing is like something I really don't deal with well. Like there are certain times like what we were talking about curb earlier. there would be certain moments in curb where like I literally like I turn away like I'm like oh I feel so even though it's make believe and it's someone else I get something internally I feel uncomfortable with so a roast where and it's not that I don't watch roast because I'm offended by the jokes it's because there are certain things where I feel so badly for the person involved that it makes me feel uncomfortable it's why I was sh shocked it existed. It's, I just was shot, like I get why comedians do it to comedians. And I get why

fringe, I don't want to be rude. I get why Pete Rose would sign up for one. Like, you know what I mean? I'm in the spotlight. It's a check. You know what I mean?

Like, I get those things. I don't under, like I was shocked that Tom signed up for it because it just feels like there's so many landmines and so much.

so much like you were saying i didn't i thought yeah there were a lot of people it seems like and i'm not really an expert to talk about this because again like i didn't i've seen some clips so i didn't watch it because i just don't enjoy that um but it seems like there were a lot of people that were not there that feel like that was not fun for me or my family you know what i mean all of it and so i don't i i also was kind of shocked i was like did Tom admit to deflategate in this thing? Was that like what? I didn't understand a lot of it.

But he, listen, I mean, the, what didn't surprise me from the coverage of it was that Belichick came off great. What didn't surprise me is that people said, you know what I mean? That he came off great and did a great job. That sounds, that checks out to me. Yeah, and I'm not, I'm not blaming anybody for the Giselle. jokes, I just thought, ooh, that I would, I would, yeah, that was the one where I was like, oh, God, I don't.

And I'm like you, I think Jeffrey Ross and Nikki Glazer are great at what they do. I can't believe you have secondhand embarrassment. I suffer from the same thing. Like, I don't like to see people bullied or hugely embarrassed. I would rather, I know this sounds absurd. I, so I take the subway every day in New York from when I pick up my daughter from school, I take subway home. And the subway platform, you go downstairs, busy platform. As insane as this sounds, I would rather slip and fall on the subway stairs than have the person in front of me slip and fall on the subway stairs.

Because like when I, like, I don't really care. Like, I don't, like, I'm, I'm not embarrassed easily for myself. Like, yeah, it's okay. Like, people saw me fall. I don't care. But for some reason, the thing of like, oh, that person now thinks I was looking at them, they are embarrassed. I really, really, it makes me feel super uncomfortable.

The secondhand embarrassment thing. And so it's just, yeah, so I just don't enjoy. I appreciate that. Now, I will tell you this, this is an unbelievable anecdote that I'm about to give you. So, Jamal Charles, who's going to end up being one of the greatest running backs ever to not make the Hall of Fame. So you got totally screwed by the Chiefs while he was there. He's an all-time player. He's from Port Arthur, Texas, and was my favorite player when I was covering the Chiefs in the early 2010s. And I was really associated with him because basically every

time the Chiefs lost, I'd be like, I don't know about you guys, I would have given the ball to Jamal Charlesmore. Brody Croix the quarterback, hand it off to the guy who's getting seven yards of carry, you idiots. So when I was in Houston after Canc City, Jamal was being inducted to the Port Arthur Sports Hall of Fame.

And they said, hey, Nick, will you host it? Will you be the host of the event? Like, yeah, of course, it would be honored. This is great. And the guy who put it on, he's like, it's a roast. I'm like, it's a roast they're like yes it's a roast but again i even though i said i don't watch them

this is i'm like okay there's no comedians here but andy reed is there earl thomas from texas is there so his teammates are there whatever it is and they're like yes it's a roast like okay so all you know write eight minutes of jokes this is unbelievable i don't think i've ever told the story publicly there's a video somewhere So I get up there and I am, I think, telling great jokes. Like one of them was, God damn, man. Don't you, I'm telling you this. Do not isolate this and put this on social media.

I said, I turned to Andy Reed and I said something about how, I'm not going to tell the exact joke, but how his clock management style reminded me of my sex life in college. There was something. There was a joke there. People can figure it out it was a good joke. He didn't like it. I said something about Earl Thomas and the Legion of Boom, whatever it is.

And nobody's really laughing that much, but these are good jokes. And then every other person that came up there did not get the memo this was a roast. They got the memo that this was a toast. And no one told me jokes and everyone just talked about. So I just looked like the biggest asshole in the world. world. I'm starting to think. I'm just killing everybody. Then everyone's like, here's how Jamal's changed my life. No jokes, nothing. I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. You have got to be kidding me. And the guy who did it, the guy who set it up, I'm like, I didn't get like

misread the email. It was like, no, man, he's like, I'm sorry. Like I told everyone it was a roast, but whatever, they didn't go with it. So I just looked like the worst guy ever. Like Andy, I think was legitimately mad. Andy and Andy and I are really cool now. But Andy, when he, when I then introduced him after the joke, he came over and maybe there's just how he shakes hands and he is a big guy. But it was not like a firm handshake.

It was like, I'm going to hurt your hand with this handshake, you smart-ass kid. Maybe making fun of my clock management. So maybe that's why I don't like roasts. Because one of the most embarrassing nights of my life was me thinking I was at a roast and it was actually a toast and I just looked like a bad guy. That is an all-time story.

You can include that. I know I said don't put it on social media. You can do whatever you want. Just maybe try to clip out the sex life in college thing. I have an image to uphold. But yeah, that is a real story. That's a true story. Austin Rivers came out and said I could pick 30 NBA players and play in the NFL.

J.J. Watt fired back. And I said today there are sports and the NBA is included. in this, tennis, golf, baseball, basketball, there is a skill level that erodes very quickly if you don't stay on it. If you don't hit a baseball for two months, you're cooked. You're cooked. Basketball, when I was playing high school basketball into college every day, if I took a week off, my ball handling wasn't quite as good. And NFL is the one sport where you don't have to play college and you can be a Hall of Famer, Antonio, gates. It's not a repetitive sport. Some instances, mechanics for quarterback, yes.

Sure. Kicking, yes. But a lot of it is strength, brutality, physicality. Instincts, raw athleticism. Yes. More than any other sport, football, which is why so many of us play high school football and so many people participate. You can be big. You don't have to be fast. You can be a guard. You can only be able to kick. You can be a punter. Right. Like, there's a bunch of different stuff. That said, I don't think basketball players have any idea how much getting tackled hurts. If you ever go to the sideline of an NFL game and watch Christian McCaffrey get hit, you cannot believe he can get up. You cannot believe he's not severely injured.

It is a car wreck on every tackle. So you should watch, I mean, well, you obviously know these guys, Howie Long's kids. You know, Chris and Jake Long, you know, so they have a podcast called Greenlight. And by the way, you own a podcast business or an audio business. You, like, I think, I think they are great. I think Chris is, Chris did. He tweeted. He said, emergency rant coming on Austin Rivers.

And Colin, when I tell you this is some of my favorite 10 minutes of media in the last month, you have to listen to it because his entire take is that not that guys couldn't do it but like because they're not good enough at football but i mean and i'm going to not do it justice he's like oh okay austin rivers you think you guys can come play football well here's the deal we got 53 guys on the team there's three massage therapists oh your body hurts well the masseuse is available at four o'clock why don't you get a lift in and shut up like you you're used to that in the NBA he's like oh in the NBA your coaches how do they talk to you because my coach is MF me and then tell me to go lay in a queen-sized bed at training

camp with another guy in my room. He's like, he does a whole thing. He's like, what's your flight's like? Because for 40 of us, we're in the coach seats on a plane. His whole take was, not you wouldn't be good enough, but that our lives are just different. Our coaches coach us. Our practices are hard. He was like, what happens in the NBA when somebody gets hurt? Do they cancel shoot around? Because in the NFL, they move the drill. They just move. They're like, guys getting carted off. It is a great rant.

With that said, I came up with eight guys. I didn't know you're going to talk about this. I came up with eight guys and their position. I guess it's seven guys. All right. So Anthony Edwards could play running backer's safety. I am certain of it. I am certain Anthony Edwards could do it.

Young LeBron would be the greatest tight end in NFL history. I know it's true. Westbrook could play in the NFL. I'm not sure the position. Maybe edge rusher, maybe safety. Josh Hart, I think can be a wide receiver just based on his rebounding this playoffs. Chris Long said, I'm just going to trust him on this because I never would have thought of it. But he played the position.

He was like, I've been watching the playoffs. I could make Jalen Brown a pass rusher. I'm like, okay, I believe you. he was like he was like he has great bend he seems a little mean he's like i could do it and then and this is going to sound mean and i am not being mean i am simply saying he would have to put on weight which i think he can and then all of a sudden it would be a benefit he has great feet great athleticism i think zion could potentially be an off on an awesome lineman he's six six he obviously you know what i mean can carry it big like jason peters was a tight end that went to it

So I do think, where I think Austin Rivers had a kernel of accuracy is there are certainly more NBA guys that there are probably five NBA guys that could be good NFL players. Like good. Like, hey, give me a year to train, be a good NFL player. And I don't know that there's any NFL guys that could be really good NBA players because like you said, your skill has atrophied. And if you're not over 6-6, it's all about skill. You know what I mean? And there's nobody that's 610 in the NFL to begin with.

So I think the list you made would be shorter. But to give you an example, I think because football players are so thick, we forget how big they are. Go look at the video of Micah Parsons without his shirt on this week. he makes Aunt Edwards look like me. He is so big.

I'll give you an example. There's an old photo of Michael Jordan standing next to Barry bombs. He looks like a straw. Is that remember Michael playing baseball? He looked like he was emaciated.

No, that part's fair. That part's fair. These NFL guys they regularly leg press 550 pounds. That is, when you watch Michael Parsons

without a shirt on, my take is, and there are times he is engulfed by Trent Williams, just engulfed by it. No, that, so that part,

so people do, we all have a, like our brain doesn't process how big NFL guys are and how tall NBA guys are. Our brain doesn't accept it. Like, I mean, you see around the office occasionally, I assume my son because he works on the lot.

You've seen him there. He is almost always the biggest guy in the room. He's six, three and a half, you know, probably 200 pounds, maybe 190. And in a room of regular people, he's an imposing, cuts an imposing figure. He is the exact same height and about 10 pounds lighter than Steph Curry. and Steph Curry and the NBA looks like a little guy. And it's like, no, actually, Steph Curry's the size of a bouncer at a decent nightclub.

It's like, you know what I mean? And so we everybody forget how tall NBA guys actually are that the guys in the, when you're watching the basketball game and a guy looks like he's average height, he's six, seven. And if you worked with someone who was six, seven, you would gawk at them. And you, you're right about how just the,

raw strength of the average NFL player. That part is unquestioned. And just the, and to the Long brothers pointed out, the physical and mental toughness to just get tackled by the strongest people in the country over and over and over again. Well, that's what he said. He said, he was just talking about guys who, because who would just get full. he said he was naming NBA guys. He's like, you get folding up like one of those camping tables.

Like, oh, you're seven feet tall. Well, you're four feet tall now because you just got folded in half. It's a great rant. It is shout out to him, man. I know you and I are two people, two of the 10 people in the world who appreciate a great rant as much as anybody. And this was a great rant by Chris Long. I highly enjoyed it. I do think there are a few, though.

I think there are a few guys who could do it. I do think Anthony Edwards could play safety. Because I don't think safeties are the size of Micah Parsons. It's flying around like a missile. I think he could do it. He's 22 years old. I think you play safety. The Chiefs just drafted a kid in the first round weighs 160 pounds.

That guy don't want to see Anthony Edwards coming over the middle. Just doesn't. I'll give you LeBron. We'll stop right there. Okay. All right. Nick Wright, as always, buddy. Absolutely. Talk to you soon, Colin.

Bye. The volume. Thanks so much for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, take a moment, rate, and review. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel,

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me.

I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast.

Guaranteed human.