The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts - Broncos release Russell Wilson, RIP Chris Mortensen, Kirk Cousins Underrated, Caitlin Clark

Episode Date: March 9, 2024

Colin’s top takes of the week!  He reacts to the news of Russell Wilson being released by the Denver Broncos (2:00) assigns blame for where it went wrong in Denver (5:00) and names an AFC team that could be a great fit (7:30). He’s joined by John Middlekauff, host of “3 and Out” to remember the life and impact of legendary ESPN reporter Chris Mortensen (15:30) and discuss the value of Kirk Cousins and why he’s been underrated (18:30). They also debate whether it’s worth taking a flier on Michael Penix Jr. despite his injury history (23:30) Colin’s also joined by Mike Mulvihill, President of Insights and Analytics for FOX Colin asks Mike whether women’s college basketball will continue to be a big draw going forward, or if it’s just the “Caitlin Clark effect” (36:00) They break down why the Dallas Cowboys and Kansas City Chiefs have the most powerful brands and what teams are close to that status (40:00). They dive into the future of cable TV and why sports has proven resilient despite a decline in overall cable viewership (46:00) (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates! #Volume #Herd See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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All right, here we go. Semi-Instant reaction. I had to speak to a USC grad class today. So I was really interesting kids and did that for an hour, a little over an hour. So I came out of the class and I heard the news. The Denver Broncos had released Russell Wilson, which saves them 37 million, but they still have about 85 million in dead cap money, which is like double the most ever. And I think that was, I believe that was Matt Ryan Falcons when they moved off him.

So you're going to have to hit on some draft picks. The only way to ease the pain. And remember, the NFL did come in, gave everybody $30 million more dollars in cap space. That helps. And hitting on four draft picks that could player start, that helps. But for a year, it's going to be pretty ugly. Let's first start about blame. Who to blame?

Well, Sean Payton needs to win games. And Russell Wilson wants to find a landing spot. Those guys are not in the blame game. They're in the turn of the page game. And I don't blame them. Their energy is going to be, Russell Wilson wants to find a better team. I think Pittsburgh's perfect.

You cannot be in a division with Joe Burrow twice a year, Kevin Stefansky and Deshaun Watson twice a year, and Lamar Jackson and John Harbaugh twice a year with Kenny Pickett. Can't go look at the Vegas odds. Steelers near the bottom of the NFL. I think you roll the dice. You go with Russell Wilson, his maturity and devotion and commitment is what the Steelers need offensively.

They've got some receivers who I really like, but they're a little young, a little immature. they're ready to go. And their offensive line is okay, not special. And Russell Wilson is still mobile enough to avoid some of that stuff. So I think it works. I think the culture and the personnel in Pittsburgh is good. They don't have a trigger guy.

They don't have a quarterback. And in the AFC, you're not going anywhere unless you have a star. Even if it's a declining star, you've got to have a star to win games. So I think Russell Wilson will do just fine. Denver's going to probably go get out a J.J. McCarrow. or a Bo Nix, I will tell you, Denver's schedule. They get the NFC South. That's the good news. The bad news. They also face the AFC North. So they're at road games next year for Denver, beyond facing Harbaugh, Justin Herbert and the Chargers, beyond facing Mahomes and Andy Reid

and the Chiefs. They go to Baltimore. Yeah, Raven's pretty good at home. They go to Joe Burwin, Cincinnati, two New Orleans and Derek Carr, two Tampa and Baker Mayfield, two Aaron Rogers and the Jets and to Seattle. That ain't great for a rookie quarterback. Now, the home schedule, they get Atlanta, Carolina at home, but Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Colts at home. Now, they have the schedule. They don't know when the dates are. But those are some tough road games. Those are harsh environments going toe to toe with really good quarterbacks in many instances. Aaron Rogers, Baker Mayfield, Joe Burrell, Lamar Jackson. There's some L's there. Mahomes once, Justin Herbert once with Harbaugh. You know, I just, I think maybe I wasn't like this in my 20s, but as I've

aged, pointing fingers doesn't solve anything. Listen, you want to point fingers, you could point to the Broncos GM, George Payton. He gave up two first, two second round picks. I think he gave up three players and maybe a fifth round pick. He also hired Nat Hackett, and that was a complete disaster. Many believe he hired Nathaniel Hackett because he tried to get Aaron Rogers, and when he couldn't, Russell and Nat Hackett's office just didn't work. So he has created $85 million a dead cap. He gave up a lot of draft capital. He picked the wrong head coach. And Sean Payton's got to pick up the pieces from there. But, you know, I don't think George Peyton, and I do respect the job he's done mostly, but you can only have so many big whiffs and Hackett and Russell,

that's a big whiff. Coach quarterback league, whiffed on both. So, and I don't think Russell would have, you know, people can get all over Sean Payton. This. This. thing, Sean and Russell were not going to work, but what coach would you really need to work? I mean, after Nat Hackett bombed, who wanted the job? Ask yourself, you would have a rookie coach? Would he have worked with Russell Wilson? I mean, the personnel is what it is based on what you were paying Russell Wilson and what you surrendered in the draft. There were some limitations here. So I think Sean Payton will figure it out. But I think if Russell Wilson went to the Steelers, he'll have a better year than J.J. McCarthy or Boe-Nicks with the Broncos.

I don't think there's any question about that. So year two feels like, you know, Sean Payton just getting out from under Russell Wilson, the player. Now he has to spend another year getting out from under the dead cap hit in a division with Justin Herbert Harbaugh, Pat Mahomes, Andy Reed. That is a big, big hill to climb. But I've never felt, and I said this, I know Sean Payton well enough after 20 interviews with him and a dinner with him and spending time with him and talking to him. I just never felt he and Russ. That's why I thought it was strange when he took the job. I just, I didn't think it was a job.

He wanted the Chargers job initially, but I think the Denver owners have a lot of cash came in, wrote a big check, and it's hard to look the other way. I get it. But this was never going to be easy. Sean is a very direct, very authentic, very opinionated person. And, you know, Russell is hopelessly optimistic. And he is a declining quarterback. And there are some psychological factors when a quarterback gets older.

He wants his money. He wants his protection. And I don't think Russell ever felt supported by Nat Hackett's incompetence or Sean Payton's brutal honesty. And so I didn't think it was a good fit. So let's move on and start over. I still think Russell Wilson has several good years in him. He's not a disaster.

He's not washed. He just needs the right pieces. And, you know, I've been saying this for years. Pittsburgh's personnel, I mean, they have all the things you need. They have weapons on the outside offensive. They have a run game and they have speed on the perimeter. They have a pass rusher. They have playmakers on defense.

They're not great at corner. Nobody outside of maybe the Jets and the Chiefs is great at corner. We have a corner shortage in the NFL and elite corner shortage. So once again, it's a great NFL draft for wide receivers. It's like the fourth straight draft, great wide receiver draft, not a great corner draft. So that problem will be exacerbated. You're just going to have more great receivers and fewer great corners. But I tend to think we can sit and point fingers at this stuff.

Denver's in the AFC. They've got to go find their next quarterback star. And history tells you if there's five quarterbacks taken in the first round, one's going to be a hit, two are going to work kind of. One's going to be a bust. And one or two won't be as, they won't get a second contract. And so, you know, I'll say this. I think outside of Caleb Williams, the rest of these quarterbacks will be as good as

the place they land. So I think if it's Bo Nix or J.J. McCarthy, I think both can succeed with Sean Payton. Both. I think J.J. McCarthy's got a better arm than Bo Nix. I think Bo Nix has far more college starts and is more accurate than J.J. McCarthy. But it just depends on what you like. J.J. is a little taller. I think, in my opinion, Bo Nix is, I feel like he's kind of elusive. The deep ball, I take J.J. McCarthy. accuracy, I take Bo Nix. Experience. I I'd take Bownecks. I think J.J. McCarthy may have a higher ceiling. Bownex is a little lower ceiling, but it could be that Bownex has a higher floor than J.J. McCarthy. So I think both those guys, that would be a perfect place to land. I don't think Michael Pennix, though I love the way he throws. I don't think Denver would take the risk on him being his injury history. They've got to get this thing right. And I just feel like Bo Nix works for that offense. Accuracy, experience, a kid that's been around. He carried Oregon at times, whereas J.J. McCarthy felt sometimes,

not to be unfair, but like he was carried by Michigan's O-line run-game coaching and dominating defense. So I think that's the direction they'll go. Jarrett Stidham can start for the time being. He's capable. He's okay. That's obviously not the future. It does matter, though, that the rookie quarterback is going to come into a system where, you know, they pay like 12 million bucks for Jarrett Stidham.

So he's going to take some snaps. You know, Stidham got some snaps this year. He'll probably start the season. I could see absolutely you get a J.G. J. McCarthy are a Bo Nix, and you're like, listen, we're earmarking Thanksgiving. And, you know, Stidham struggles with a tough schedule that includes trips to Baltimore and Cincinnati and Kansas City. And, you know, I could see the Jarrett Stittum struggling. And then Sean Peyton saying, all right, it's week seven, week six, let's go with a kid. I'm fine with that too.

But in the end, it was a big swing by Denver. I was surprised how bad the Russell Wilson Nat Hackett combination was. I just, remember the first game that he played in Denver and they went to Seattle to face the Seahawks and they couldn't figure out the clock with two minutes ago. It was like, oh, oh, we got a coordinator, not a great one trying to be a head coach. This isn't going to work. So, and I think you've seen that in New York with Nat Hackett and Zach Wilson. So it happened. We can point fingers. I think it was inevitable. I don't think the personalities clash. You don't have to be best friends with your quarterback. Belichick and Brady reportedly didn't have a dinner in 20 years. You don't have to be best friends. But I think Russell may be the

most optimistic player in the league. And I think Sean Payton on the other end is the most authentic and raw and outspoken in the league. So, I mean, you have a chasm there of personalities, whereas Belichick and Brady are both intensely driven, workaholics, work over everything else. They were kind of on the same plane and in the same direction for years. I think Tom's a little more joyful and easier to be around, Bill's a little more old school. But a lot of things Brady and Belichick were very similar on their ascension, their drive, their work ethic, and their commitment to the sport. Sean and Russell, you couldn't pick a more optimistic quarterback, maybe Kirk Cousins, and a more raw coach than Sean Payton. It's oil and water. It never worked. That's okay. Don't

need to blame anybody. It's okay. Sean's won a Super Bowl. So is Russ. They've both won Super Bowls. They're more than capable. George Payton, on the other hand, I would be surprised if he has a lot of tarmac left. You whiffing a coach, you whiffing a quarterback, 85-milled dead cap. That's going to leave a mark. That lingers. And remember, this division now, negative Andy Reed and Jim Harbaugh. And pretty good coaches. Pretty good coaches. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

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It's our usual Sunday hour, John Middletkoff, former NFL Scout, who just got back from the Combine, like Thursday night. After spending four or five days there for the volume, we certainly appreciated that. I should mention right off the top, Chris Morton's and passed away today. He'd been battling cancer for some time. He was 72 years old. Mort was one of the more respected. you know, he was as kind as he was wise.

One of those kind of guys that I think transcended era is Paul Zimmerman, Sports Illustrated is the first NFL guy I remember, like what you would call like your beat columnist, Peter King, Chris Mortensen, he came from the Atlanta Journal Constitution where he was breaking stories down there. Just a really nice guy. How was he viewed in the league, John? I mean, these guys, now it's basically about breaking stories. Schaefter took kind of Mortensen's role, and it's like minute-to-minute breaking stories.

Chris grew up in a generation without the iPhone, it was more about contextualizing stories and breaking stories. How was he viewed around the league? Yeah, I think people loved him. I mean, I saw Peyton Manning, who obviously was very close with him and the Manning family in general. You know, when I think about football, like you said, I mean, growing up in the 90s, Chris Mortensen, Peter King, I mean, those guys really, you know, from outside of people, broadcasting games like a John Madden played an integral role on all of us that love football. I mean, the access that they had. It's so.

I mean, you can find out everything now on social media and all these articles or all these blogs. They had something that not many people had, and that was information. So I think he was a trailblazer that way for sure. And just an awful day. Obviously, he'd been sick for a while. Sucks. I mean, he's, I think he's one of the key figures. terms of like NFL reporting, NFL just stories and someone that you had to go to for information

before, when information was really, really hard to get, and it was much more difficult to communicate. Yeah. And, you know, he was one of the first guys that was a beacon right at a major network. I mean, remember, sports departments at the network level were just ABC, NBC, CBS, you didn't get daily stuff. They were basically on for the weekends. And then guys like Mort, who were on this, this this initially tiny cable outfit that could give you hour by hour day by day reporting. It made kind of rock stars out of all of them. And Mort always held it in check in terms of gratitude, very, very gracious. You know, rest in peace, Chris Mortonson, one of the all-time greats.

Everybody likes Kirk Cousins, everybody. And somebody the other day said this. They said, you know, everybody talks about Russell Wilson and Justin Feud. and Baker Mayfield. And this person said, you know, he's got like a career 99 passer rating and completed 69% of his throws last year. And, I mean, is a proven high accuracy, high values win a bunch of game quarterback. When you were at the combine, a lot of stuff, guy like me in the opinion space, we don't talk

about Kirk Cousins because he doesn't make news. You know, he's just very quiet. But when you're at the Combine, how is that Atlanta opening viewed, for instance? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people think that Cousins is the biggest domino to fall in terms of he's the number one target for the teams that are aggressively going to try to get a quarterback here in two weeks or whenever the official date is the 13th. Because Justin Fields is not viewed very highly. He's viewed highly on Twitter, not by NFL GMs and coaches, right? not people that are trying to win nine, ten games next year. And Russell's a little more fascinating because he's a very interesting guy

because his money's going to be low. But you always talk about this when you're really famous coming into a place. It's a little more complicated, right, with Russell. Even though actually numbers-wise, he wasn't terrible. He resurrected his career based on two years ago. He was terrible. Cousins, before he tore that Achilles, remember that Monday night game against the 49ers? He looked like Peyton Manning.

He had really kind of... Oh, and the year before, he had a game at Buffalo against Josh Allen and out-duled him. He has... He's got a list of six or seven games against Mahomes, Josh Allen, the Niners, where he has been the best player on the field. I think he mastered his talent, right? He knows exactly what he is and his mind. A lot of quarterbacks talk about this, right? That they get, as they get older, they realize the game becomes easier than the

problem is their physical skills diminish. Right, Tom's like, I've never been smarter at football. I just don't want to get hit anymore. Peyton Manning's arm was shot. Drew Breeze's arm was shot. Cousins did get injured, though, and a pretty major injury. I was with his agent one night, who I've known for a long time. Obviously, loves them.

I mean, they've made a lot of money together. He got a special contraption that, like a lot of, I'm sure, facilities have and, like, hospitals have when it comes to rehabbing the Achilles. Because of so much money, he just bought it for his house. you know, this is a guy that takes this stuff very, very seriously. And I guess it's gone really well. He's like, we've put out videos of him moving around. They're not bound in their chest like Aaron Rogers.

Like, this is going to be a three month. But they think all things considered with the injury. Here's the other thing, Colin. His game isn't predicated on running around, right? Like when a corner or a wide receiver tears an Achilles, you go, even Rogers. Like, a big part of Rogers game is the movement. Cousies is Peyton Manning, Eli, Manning, Philibor. He doesn't move.

So when you look at it, you go, well, if he's healthy, it's not like you have to worry. Well, he's not as fast. Well, he never ran to begin with. So you're getting a guy, I think Atlanta, I mean, a lot of signs are pointing to that. Now, he's not cheap, right? And he's proven, like, from a business standpoint, they have been very like, they don't take discounts. So you're not getting the guy for two years, $60 million. Would you be willing to give him, you know, $70, $80, $90 million guaranteed for a short, you know, it's a three, four-year contract.

but if he's healthy, I mean, Atlanta could all of a sudden be an intriguing, you know, playoff level contender. I mean, hell, they were kind of right there this year for a long period during the season, but their quarterback played like me or you. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting in this league. There's sort of three levels of successful quarterbacks. The stars, you know, we all know who those are, Mahalms, Lamar, Josh. That's a small handful, too. Yeah, very small, six, seven. And then the rising young stars people are excited about. You know, C.J. Stroud, you know, Trevor Lawrence, Jalen Hertz, whoever.

And then there's the guys that you know there'll be no chaos. Jared Goff, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins. I think Goff's the most talented of those. But they don't get the fan base necessarily excited. But the minute they land, you start winning double-digit games. I mean, say what you want about, Dak. He may have a lower ceiling. Dak gets you into the playoffs.

Dak wins 12 games three years in a row. So I find like Kirk Cousins, he's almost, you juxtapose him with Justin Fields. He's the opposite. There's no flash, no excitement. There's no topics. But I just get 69% completion percentage and not a lot of, doesn't miss a lot of games, doesn't turn it over a lot, moves the chains. If he doesn't score, he put your defense in pretty good field position.

So I think within the league, there's a great appreciation for guys like Goff and guys like Kirk Couss. I just don't think in the media there is. Kind of wrapping up the combine, I want to talk about this. You know, when I was younger, you know, some women you date and some you look at and think, you know, this could be long term. You could marry. And that's okay. Women look at men just the same way. Some you date, some you marry.

And I've thought about this for a long time as I watched the conference. Combine and listened to all the quarterback talk. If you told me Michael Panix gave me four years, I would draft him if I was a team that was just sort of stuck. If I was Sean Payton and somebody said, you know, he's available. It's funny. Whereas everybody else is viewed as a long-term solution, this league now, by Thanksgiving of year two, people in the building are making.

decisions on quarterbacks. I mean, I think the Giants coaches, they're not Daniel Jones fans. Mara is. There's some sort of weird connectivity to Eli Manning and Daniel Jones, Southern kids, tall, dark hair, whatever. But I sort of look at Michael Pennix, and I'm like, not every quarterback you draft has to be Brady. If you're in, Washington's in chaos.

Now, they're not going to get him with that pick, obviously. But if you start looking where Pennix could fall to. Is it two of the best example with Miami? He's not great, but he's just, you just stabilize the franchise. Like, I see Pennix in terms of throwing the football, you know, big, strong kid. He's not going to run. He's clearly a pocket guy. What are you hearing about him?

Because, you know, he came out, his hand size, his wingspan. I watched him live. he throws up the sideline like a 12-year pro. Like he is really a side. You know, a lot of these quarterbacks, like Bow Nix I like, doesn't throw a good deep ball. Pennix was a great deep ball. He's not going to move at all. What are you hearing?

You know, I think Daniel Jeremiah said it yesterday when he was throwing. He throws the most beautiful ball here by far of the quarterbacks that were throwing. I mean, half of them didn't throw. I had friends. I remember watching him a lot. I remember the game you went to and watching that game thinking like, this is a top 10 pick and start texting around. A lot of people had him in the second and third rounds.

Now, when you're a scout, you're closer to it, right? You have all the in-depth medical information. He had basically not completed four straight years, and a couple of those were shoulders. So if you've been scouting for 10, 15 years, that terrifies you. And then in the game against Oregon, in both games against Oregon, and definitely the game against Michigan, which are his best competition and NFL level players everywhere on the other side of the ball, he had to be picked up. kind of carried.

So physically he's not, his arms are really long and his hands are huge. But he's not a very, I don't want to call him slender. To me, Jaden's more slender. But Jaden's much, Jaden's an elite athlete so he can get away. Pennick's is not a lot like Tua. They're pocket quarterbacks. They're not mobile guys. They can move a little bit, but you're not running them at all.

So I think the size, and he did not play well in that Michigan game. and that's an NFL team. And he had an NFL team in terms of his wide receivers. So I think you can find people like myself. Again, I'm just a couch scout now that went like, I'm with you. I've seen enough shitty quarterbacks in the NFL. If you're Sean Payton just a couple of years figured out, can this guy have you competing for the playoffs?

And I have a lot of people that go, I wouldn't touch him in the first round. So he is easily one of the most polarizing guys. Because ultimately, Jaden McDaniel or Jane Daniels and Drake May, they're going two and three in some order. even Caleb. He's not polarizing at all. He's going number one. Bo Nix, polarizing a little bit, but he's still going to go pretty high. Yeah. I think, and J.J. McCarthy, a guy, someone people are having a lot of discussions on, is going to get drafted high. I bet you go in some draft rooms, and they'll have this guy in the third round and other draft rooms that have them, you know, competing to be a top 20 pick. I like them because accuracy always matters. deep ball in this NFL matters.

If this was 1992, and we had to play the Cowboys, the 49ers, and the Packers, and Reggie White was tackling him, like, this guy's going to get broken in half. The quarterback doesn't get touched that much. I've seen Brock Ferdie. He's not that big. Doesn't really get touched. I got a lot of small quarterbacks.

Right? It's just even some of... Kyler Murray didn't get injured in terms of tearing his ACL tackled. He tore it running. And Michael Pennix is not a runner. So the offensive line's going to matter. it will with any young quarterback, but I like Michael Pennings.

But I don't think a lot of NFL teams, or I think a lot of NFL teams lean second day draft pick. Yeah. Andy Reed goes to the Combine, McVeigh, Shanahan, not interested. What is that? I think Andy Reid, one defense I've heard of the Shanahan's and the McVeys and McCarthy is this events become commercialized. right, they like prodding around their coaches and almost profiting off them and it pisses off that crew of guys, which I push back and say the reason you guys make $12, $15 million is the commercialization of the NFL.

Like, welcome to the deal, guys. Yeah. They also would say, well, I still zoom in to all the interviews at night. So when we interview 10 guys at night, I'm sitting right there on the computer. And any human being would say it is not the same that being there. Andy Reid told me, none of this matters, right? The workouts, the medical I have nothing to do with as the head coach is out of my hands. The only thing that I come here for is when that guy walks into the room, Trent McDuffie,

and for the first time I meet him and get to talk to him and just get a feel for. Been to league long enough, just like all those guys, I get to introduce myself and talk to him and see how he interacts with my coaches. We tape that too. But you've interviewed people. what's your reaction interviewing someone for your show when they're on Zoom or when you're sitting next to them in person? When you're interviewing someone for the volume in person at, you know, meeting them for lunch, then a telephone call is dramatically different.

And these are million dollar investments. So I don't agree with them not coming. And I understand some of the stuff. You're not obligated to talk to the media. You don't have to go to that little thing that Andy goes to. Belichick never did. Never went. He still showed up.

for all the other stuff, the football stuff, which is very important. One thing for the 49ers, like, they've hit on a lot of picks in the third, fourth, and fifth round. They've missed on a lot of high picks. So, you know, if Andy Reid's going to be there, if Belichick went for 40 years, Pete Carroll never missed it. There's definitely some value there. And I'm not, these guys aren't lazy individuals, but I do think they're wrong.

I mean, who am I to tell them? But I just, there's a value there. Clearly, the best coach in the league. If you said, hey, there's a podcasting convention, coward's going, Rogan's going, and Big Cat's going. Should I go? Probably. It's like, what are we doing? You know, I would get if Kyle had just won the Super Bowl and he was off with his family, like, you lost. This draft's kind of big.

McVeigh, you've been, they got knocked out in the first round. Right. But they just can't stay. I saw a less need somewhere. He didn't even go. Like, it's not pinched pennies. this league's making so much money. I can't get behind the interview meeting these guys because it is important.

And then you talked a lot of it. Then what happens in the middle of the season? Oh, this guy can't learn. This guy can't figure it out. I thought this guy, well, you had the opportunity to meet the guy, right? You could have controlled some more of it. So coaches are always quick to complain when they don't want to do some of this. And in fairness, like this is not the combine is more about the scouting staff.

But ultimately, once the guy's drafted, the coaches around them a lot more than the GM and the scouts. Get in on the action with the Draft King Sportsbook and official sports betting partner of the NBA. New customers who deposit $5 or more can get a no-swet bet up to $1,000 back in bonus bets. How cool of a deal is that? All you have to do is download the Draft King Sportsbook app now. It takes 90 seconds and use the code Colin C-O-L-I-N. This is the best deal you're going to find. New customers, it's a no sweat bet up to $1,000 if your first bet loses.

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only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports. and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford

show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day but just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, I always try to stay away from too many conversations with the suits on the fifth floor. You just get in trouble when you're on the air and you get in the company of powerful men.

And Michael Mulvahill, the president of insights and analytics at Fox across the board, is one of those powerful guys. But he's so disarming, first of all. And second of all, he's got, I mean, it's a perfect title, insights and analytics. and there's so many things. I don't really talk a ton about my industry if I do Michael's the guy at Fox that I talk to. So there's a kind of a myriad of topics here. Let's start with something we've never seen before, Caitlin Clark.

Now, years ago, when Tiger Woods came into golf, there was this sense that, oh, golf ratings are going to explode. And my takeaway was, no, when Tiger leaves, you mean, three million people take up golf a year and three million people quit. It's hard. But there are these Caitlin Clark, Michael Jordan, figures in our life that are just unique and spectacular. Women's ratings have been growing. Do you see Caitlin Clark as the creator of a new reality?

Or to some degree, she's just a spectacular unicorn with her style, tenacity, and excellence for multiple years? That's a great place to start. And first of all, thanks for having me. I really enjoy doing this with you from time to time. I also try to avoid having conversations with powerful people up here on the fifth. You and I have that in common. Look, certainly this is a unique moment in the evolution of interest in women's sports. I don't think we've ever seen such a groundswell in interest across certainly basketball, collegiate volleyball, international soccer. I think what we're seeing is the pay. of literally over 50 years of Title IX and the way that that's changed, the way that girls have access to sports, and the way that both men and women think about women's athletics, and it's brought us to this moment where college basketball readings on the women's side are up 60% across all networks, and Caitlin Clark's game on Sunday against Ohio State did almost three and a half million viewers. And I think your question is the right one. You know, what does this mean going forward and is Caitlin a unicorn?

And I don't think she is. You know, I think that what she is, is she's at the forefront of an evolution in the skill level that we see in women's basketball. And the players that are coming up behind her, whether that's Paige Beckers, who's coming back for another year at Connecticut or Juju Watkins, who has several years to go at Southern Cal.

And obviously, they'll be part of the Big Ten next year. I think she's just on the leading edge of a, new generation of players that are elevating the game. I think Tiger Woods is an interesting precedent as well. I think you could even go back as far as the 1980s NBA, where Magic and then Jordan entered the league. And they were at a skill level that we hadn't seen before, but they just represented an evolution of the game that then continued even after they had moved on. So I think once Caitlin moves on to the WNBA,

I'm not sure that we'll see viewership at the collegiate level that's exactly what we're seeing this year. But I don't think it's a reset back to where we were five years ago either. I think a permanent step forward has happened and we're still going to see some pretty strong interest in the future. Obviously, the Dallas Cowboys, when they're viable, rate very well with the NFL. And there are markets right now that are underachieving, Chicago, New York, you just wish the teams were better. I've always argued it's hard to understand how big the influence of the 49ers is unless you live out west. If the Niners are playing in your stadium, they've got 40% of the seats other than maybe Denver. They're the Yankees of the West Coast, that they literally fill your stadium.

So I've always thought the Niners were undervalued as an NFL market. San Francisco is obviously a big city. and I do wonder about Pittsburgh that was so dominant for years, but it's a small city relative to other big markets. So if I said to you six best, if Fox could pick, and now these days you guys share AFC NFC, NFC, if I said to you, all things considered, market, brand, quarterback, can you unveil like the top six or seven picks in this league? Yeah, that's an interesting way of framing it, right? because there's a very clear top two, and then there's a gap, and it's sort of an open question as to what team might step up and become the third most powerful brand, because for years, at least on the NFC side, it was Dallas and Green Bay.

Well, on the NFC side, it's still Dallas. It's probably always going to be Dallas. It could be Green Bay again, but I think right now there's a little bit of a blank space that some team could step into and become that third marquee brand. Certainly, it's been Dallas for a long time. Now Kansas City's right alongside them. I think when we talk about our schedule and when we talk to the league about what we would like to have for next season, Dallas and Kansas City very clearly have separated themselves from the rest of the league.

And then there are a number of teams that have the potential to become that third marquee team. Philadelphia definitely is one. Philadelphia was a holding penalty away. from sending the Super Bowl to overtime two seasons ago. They obviously struggled second half of this season, but that's a big brand. They've got exciting star players. The market of Philadelphia,

not only is one of the biggest cities in the country, but it rates extremely well. Philadelphia contributes more viewers to our national viewership than any other city. So if Philly can bounce back from that tough second half that they had last year, they're definitely eligible to become that third big brand. I think you're right about San Francisco.

San Francisco's another team who's very close to winning a championship, deep and talented on both sides of the ball, fun to watch. They play that kind of positionless offense that I think is very watchable and just fun. So San Francisco is another one. Still a lot of built-in following for the Packers. They looked a lot better in December than they did in September, which is what they tend to be. So they have the potential to step up.

I think Buffalo is a giant. I think what's interesting with Buffalo is that not only is it the quality of the team and the quality of Josh Allen, but there's just a culture around that team and the idea of the Bill's Mafia and Buffalo being a super passionate football city that has been at the doorstep of a championship a couple times and just never quite got there. They've got a little bit of that Chicago comes of the NFL. feeling, right? Where if they get to the big game, that becomes an enormous national story. And you could probably put Detroit in that category. I was thinking, Mike, they travel well. Boy, the lions travel like crazy this year. Yeah, well, I think Detroit. Look, I grew up in Pittsburgh, right? So I'm very familiar with that

team and that city. Detroit and Pittsburgh are sort of in similar circumstances where they're both industrial Midwestern cities where economically, realities forced a lot of people to move away, right? So you've got a lot of former Pittsburghers and a lot of former Michiganders around the country. And so when the Steelers go on the road, there's always a lot of Steelers fans there because people have relocated. A lot of people from Detroit have relocated. I think those teams from the industrial Midwest, we think of them as traveling well because a lot of people used to live there and now they've gone to the Sunbelt and they go to the road games. You know, TV

rights as a whole. I can remember reading articles, Sports Illustrated cover articles, you know, when's it going to end? You can't pay this much for TV rights. Well, now you've got Amazon, Apple on the doorstep of, you know, either buying networks or buying rights. So the numbers, you know, you need content. Obviously, the cliche contents king. It just is. Fill the bandwidth. That's what they do. You know, it's interesting. I work in cable. explain this to me. So cable obviously has been eroding for several years for about a decade, talked about for about six, seven years, but about 10 years ago, people started, people within the industry didn't talk about it publicly. They tried to keep it secret, but it started happening.

But yet the ability by Fox to team with YouTube create streaming eventually here is stemming some of the losses. My show, for instance, we were up 25 or something percent this year, and cable is eroding. And I'm going to throw something at you. It's theoretical. And Michael just literally take a pinata to it if it's crazy. But I've made this argument that if TikTok, because of government regulations, was regulated to a level that only two things could be on it. Culinary stuff and pet stuff. And it lost 70% of its audience. But culinary and pet videos were all that was allowed or all that flourished, that it would be an incredibly dynamic platform for those two, right, industries. Well, television now cable TV is sports

and politics, linear TV, sports and politics. So people say, is dying. And I'm like, no. Yes, it is. But it's overwhelming. We don't share it with anybody. We share it with Trump and Biden for five months. Otherwise, television is now dominated by the industry I grew up in. So as the platform may be dissolving or shrinking or regressing, it's now wholly owned by two factors of which it should be noted. Fox between politics and sports is, you know, well-suited to flourish. So when you look at the cable erosion, They've been talking about newspaper erosion forever. New York Times is more powerful than ever, in my opinion.

I mean, they bought the athletic, which went for $500, $500 million. I don't know how to position it or if you can talk about it too much, but what do you make of the cable erosion? But some of those losses appear to be being stemmed by sports gambling, the increased dominance of sports by YouTube and relationships. Talk me through how you view that. Yeah, that's an incredibly rich topic, right? And that is what everybody in our business spends a lot of our time thinking about is how is that cable business changing? What does it mean to our revenue streams? What's going to mean to sports rights going forward?

I think if you want to understand our business, a good place to start is to simply understand that for the entire time that you and I have been doing what we do, sports content has in some way been subsidized by, non-sports fan who pay for cable TV. And so for the last 40 years, while media has changed incalculably, what we've always seen in sports is a rising number of pay TV subscribers, more people paying for content. And so the pool of money that's available to us in sports has just grown and grown and grown. Nobody our age or younger has ever really known what it means to be in a contracting sports economy.

Well, now, because of that, what you're describing, where people are getting out of the cable bundle, entertainment viewers are figuring out that they can get the content they want from streaming platforms. And so fewer and fewer non-sports fans are paying for sports content.

That era of subsidization is either coming to an end or it's already over. And that pool that we have to pay for sports rights, is going to contract, and it forces all of us to be a little bit more disciplined in our dealmaking and in the way that we consider rights opportunities.

But what's also interesting there is that as that number of people that are subscribing to cable TV shrinks, and it goes from nearly 100 million to now closer to 70 million, I believe that most of the people that are getting out of the sports, that are getting out of the pay TV bundle, they're not really big sports fans. They're people who are subscribing to cable for entertainment content. Now they're getting their entertainment content from Netflix and from Prime Video, Disney Plus.

And what that means is that your number of cable subscribers is going down. The revenue associated with those subscribers is going down. And yet because those people that are leaving the bundle aren't sports fans, the people that are left behind are spending more of their time on sports and on 24-hour news. And so here we are for this year to date, FS1 viewership is up 7%. Right. May not sound like a lot. But when you're in an environment of declining subscribers, to have any growth is pretty

noteworthy. Your show is growing. Nick Wright's show is growing. We see shows on ESPN that are still growing. If you talk about live events, NFL, college football. We talked about women's basketball earlier. NASCAR has been up the last couple weeks. There's a lot out there that's growing.

And so sort of the paradox of it is that the viewership for sports in many, many cases is going up. And yet because that subscriber base is eroding, the revenue associated with sports TV is going down. And so there's a little bit of a decoupling between popularity and revenue generation. And I think it's very confusing to people because you're constantly reading about record ratings for the Super Bowl, record ratings for college football. And yet we and companies like ours don't necessarily have the same. The revenue streams that we draw on to make these deals aren't as powerful as they were even just a couple years ago. So that's a transformational change. I think it's a major adjustment for people who do.

what I do and who have only ever known an expanding sports economy. And it's going to affect all of us, right? It affects what's available to spend on rights. It affects what's available to spend on talent. It affects people like me, right? Like we all are going to have to sort of re-demonstrate and re-establish our value because we can't just rely on the rising tide of growing and cable revenue. So that's kind of a long explanation, but that's probably as best as I can put it. The volume.

Thanks so much for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, take a moment, rate and review. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On the Look Back at it podcast. In 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. with our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.