The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts - Chuck Klosterman on MJ Media, KD Advice, Westbrook Ending with Marcus Thompson, Lance Q’s with John Middlekauff

Episode Date: July 16, 2022

This is Prime Cuts! The best of The Colin Cowherd Podcast. First, (3:00) Colin explains why Lamar Jackson isn’t a top 10 QB, and why journalists claiming inside knowledge about the length of the upcoming Deshaun Watson suspension don't have a clue.  Then, (8:00) New York Times best-selling author and contributor Chuck Klosterman discusses his latest book, The Nineties: A Book, the coverage of Michael Jordan’s pursuit of a baseball career, the difference in media in the MJ and LeBron eras, and the case for KD becoming an unapologetic, permanent NBA mercenary. Next, (26:00) The Athletic NBA Writer Marcus Thompson on what it was like watching the Warriors clinch in Boston, why the trade market for Kevin Durant has been so limited, if Chet Holmgren can handle the nightly punishment of an NBA season, and if Russell Westbrook still has value in the right situation. Finally, (44:00) 3 and Out podcast Host John Middlekauff on possible landing spots for Jimmy G with Baker Mayfield in Carolina, if the Niners have doubts about Trey Lance heading into camp, if Zach Wilson tabloid headlines are cause for bigger concern, and if the Patriots are in big trouble without Josh McDaniels calling plays. Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates and check out FanDuel for the best wagering and daily fantasy action! #Herd See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

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A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes,

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For 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84's big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians,

and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Volume. Colin Coward Podcasts presented by Fandual Sportsbook. No better place to bet the action than on Fandual Sportsbook during the football season. There's a lot of reasons.

It's America's number one sports book, incredibly easy to use, super safe, totally secure. super fast payouts in as quick as two hours. You're not going to get that anywhere. Also, same game parlay bets, live betting. It's the best. Hey, if you're new, just download the Fandul Sportsbook app. I did it in 15 seconds. Get started now. Sign up. Please use the promo code Colin so they know we sent you. Please use the promo code Colin, C-O-L-I-N. Fandul-Sport app, sign up. This is Prime Cuts, the best of the Colin Coward podcast. Holy smokes did we have a good week. My buddy John Middlough weighed in on the Niners' doubts about Trey Lance. The athletics Marcus Thompson. How freaking good was he on K.D. Russell Westbrook. And now how

Andrew Wiggins is viewed. And brilliant author Chuck Klosterman discussed his book, The 90s. It reexamines the decade in sports, pop culture, politics. It is fantastic. But first, my My top takes of the week. What I'm about to say we know is true. There's always about six great quarterbacks in the NFL, 70s, 80s, 90s, turn of the century now. I thought it was funny when I put out my top 10 quarterback list. And I saw also that the NFL executives put out a top 10 quarterback list. And in both, Lamar Jackson was missing.

I got a lot of pushback. What about Lamar Jackson? Well, what about him? Justin Herbert has set NFL records for passing in the first two years. Joe Burrow got to a Super Bowl. Kyler Murray is a better throw over the football. If you had a minute 30 left and you were trailing, would you want Derek Carr or Lamar Jackson?

Derek Carr leads the NFL and fourth quarter comebacks since 2014. Lamar Jackson has often struggled to play from behind. Everybody wants their quarterback to be on the list. The truth is, I am a huge. fan of Lamar Jackson. But you have eyes. I have eyes. He's a downhill player. He plays better with a league than trailing. And the quarterbacks I put on my list play well behind or leading. But it's funny about it. We all know it's true. There's about six great quarterbacks in the league. Does any NFL GM really believe Lamar Jackson as insanely clever as he can be is one of those

quarterbacks. There's a narrative on Lamar. He's not as good in the postseason as he is in the regular season, and he plays better with a lead than he does from behind. And in the NFL, unlike college, even if you're on a good team, you often play from behind. Look at Mahomes. He's played from behind a lot. And that's the Chiefs. When Lamar broke into the league, Joe Burrow, Justin Herbert, and Kyler Murray weren't the quarterbacks. They are today. Derek Carr hadn't overcome the John Gruden fiasco yet. Let's be honest, quarterback over the last three years in the NFL has gotten better. Lamar?

Last two years? Really hasn't. One of my mantras or mottos in this business, I'd rather be right than first. I don't consider myself a journalist, although I've broken stories and I have sources. But I'm an opinionist, a generalist, at least to some level, an entertainer. Sorry, that's the way it goes. If you're informative and boring, you're out of work. If you're entertaining and semi-informative, you get a raise.

From an entertainer, whatever. But I watched the Deshawn Watson reporting. I've seen from various reporters that he's going to be suspended anywhere from zero games to two games to four games to six games to eight games. to 12 to the entire season. I don't need to call out the reporters. It's called Twitter. You can see it.

Let's be honest here. Nobody knows. I'm in the opinion game. I can guess. I have basic instincts. I think he's going to get somewhere from four to six. But if you're a reporter, wouldn't you rather get it right than try to get it first?

Not a single person in the American media has a clue how many games Deshawn Watson is going to be suspended. Sue Robinson is the judge. Speculation. She won't even announce it until late next week at the earliest. And even that's without insight. Come on, reporters, do a better job. Nobody has a legitimate inside track on Deshawn Watson.

Now, they may, the day before it's released, if you cover the Cleveland Browns, you're friendly with Andrew Barry, you may get a 12-hour head start. But right now, all the reports are utter nonsense and guessing. He's a best-selling author, a writer for the New York Times, Washington Post, Esquire, GQ, a magazine all never appear in. His name is Chuck Klosterman. He's got a book called The 90s. a fascinating look back at a wild decade. So, Chuck, one of the things you discuss of the many topics is the Michael Jordan baseball career. And it's fascinating to me because you touch on something that I've talked about with friends all the time,

how something is perceived later compared to how it was perceived at the time. So, you know, Jordan's baseball career is considered largely a whiff. I don't know how I thought about it in the mid-90s. Take me back, Chuck. What was the reporting and the coverage on it? Were we bewildered? Were we disappointed? Were we kind of impressed that he gave it a run?

What was the coverage on MJ's baseball career back then? Well, you know, what you're mentioning is very true. It's interesting to me how this period of his career now has sort of been reconsidered as charming. Like, I think that people now look at as sort of a, like, an interesting detail in this person's kind of trajectory, you know, that in some ways has humanizes him, although it doesn't really make a lot of sense. I mean, at the time, it was very strange.

You know, we were in this period where there were people like Bo Jackson and Dion Sanders who were playing multiple sports, but that was a, those were very different situations. Not only had they played in college, but they seem to have this sort of physical imposing quality that would transcend to any sport. Whereas Jordan is this guy who's 6-6, pretty wiry. I mean, I guess you'd argue he could play volleyball, but he doesn't really have the body that's made to play baseball. So then the thinking was, well, why is he doing this? Like, is it because of the death of his father and his father had loved baseball, which is sort of what Jordan implied, you know? There were the conspiracies about this idea of gambling that he was.

secretly suspended by David Stern, and this was some way for him to keep earning his money like it had been some kind of compromise. There was this idea that maybe he perceived himself as invincible and that there wasn't really a sport that he could not excel at. It was very strange, and, you know, his profile at the time was larger than any player in Major League Baseball. So during spring training of those years, you know, it was sort of the main story, a surrounding baseball. And then the season would start. He was relegated to the minor leagues,

and then we kind of go back to our normal coverage. I guess what I find interesting about it is to me, it sort of illustrates the last period in American history where baseball was still seen as different than other sports. And somehow his desire to play baseball did not seem as maybe paradoxical as it would seem now. I mean, we were thinking about this time, like, you know, Ken Burns' baseball was on PBS. And there was this idea that baseball was just different than other sports. And I would guess when you were a younger person, particularly for like your father, there was this idea that baseball had the separation from football and basketball,

even as it lost its kind of popularity. And I look at Jordan's attempt to play baseball as sort of the last time when this thinking was still so common that the greatest basketball player in the world would somehow seem see a logic in trying to play this sport that was really receding from the cultural conversation. There's two people in my life that I consider had a force field around them. Reagan, who once laughed and joked about bombing Russia, and it was a story for like a day. And MJ, a lot of vagaries here. Selfish, punched a teammate, quit twice, hard to coach, tough on team.

teammates, failed at baseball, was divorced, gambling controversies. LeBron James' big knock is he really didn't criticize China much when he had an opportunity to. Oh, yeah, once as a free agent, he left, is that I think history would be much more favorable to LeBron, not that he'll be criticized, but he would be far less criticized. if he played when Jordan did. And Jordan played now. Jordan would be pummeled.

It's almost as if sports center never ran any of his misses. And there was a bubble around Jordan. And Chuck, I always felt a lot of it was. He was the first in on the big shoe deal. That Nike surrounded him with an impenetrable shield, a bubble. And Reagan felt a little bit like that. Now with Twitter and social media and the polarization, Reagan would get crushed as doddering old, goofy, actor, vacuous.

And they had his critics. So that my takeaway on Michael is he was kind of fortunate. You could have a lot of flaws in the 90s. Am I wrong on that? Well, no. I mean, in terms of one's ability to sort of go through life and have huge parts of it, hidden. Everybody prior to the social media universe benefited from that. I mean, going back to the idea of FDR being paralyzed, essentially, was something that you could sort of keep out of the public

conversation. I mean, the thing you say about LeBron, it's pretty fascinating in the sense that I can't think of many other examples of a situation where somebody was very young and before they had done anything was sort of deemed as this individual is going to become, you know, the apex of his sport. And then it actually worked out. I mean, Tiger Woods sort of had that. But then that all sort of dissolved. You know, once we move into like 2006 and 2007,

you know, LeBron's, the fact that he's never had a cataclysmic failure is surprising. Now, you look at Jordan, it is interesting. I often think that, you know, that we remember these guys for their, their great achievements, but they're sort of defined by their greatest failure. And, you know, Jordan's greatest failure, if you really boil it down, was his inability to control his competitive nature. Yeah. That at times made him misread both like his ability to play baseball, his ability to come back

with the Wizards and be the same, although the two years he spent with the Wizards probably isn't as bad as we now seem to sort of remember it. But, you know, Jordan going to say Gamble when they're playing the next. and disappearing all night with his dad and coming back and they're Don 2-0. Now, it is pretty obvious to say, like, in the social media era, that would be very different. There would have been attempts to argue that he didn't really care about winning. But all those things were removed from the equation to the point where we now look at Jordan's kind of almost sociopathic competition as our favorite thing about him.

The idea that he would cheat, you know, Buzz Peterson's grandma at goldfish when he goes, goldfish when they goes home with him at Christmas. The idea that like he would keep Isaiah Thomas off the Olympic team, all these things that in truth are sort of signs of somebody who is unable to sort of turn off this desire to dominate. We love that. And maybe if he had been punished at the time for it, we would think differently. But because he wasn't punished for that in the 90s, we forgive it now retroactively. Yeah, it's almost like when Oliver Stone made Gordon Gecko, he did not make him to be a beloved character.

And it just so happens he was, right? Well, I mean, that's how I mean, you look at a character like Archie Bunker, same way, where it's like when someone tries to do satire in a way that is so close to reality that a lot of times people will enjoy it at face value. You know, like Jordan's sort of overheated competition, we enjoyed that at face value. It was the idea that it meant something else wasn't really part of it. I mean, now when you look at an athlete in the spotlight, whether it's, you know, LeBron or Kyrie Irving or, you know, Aaron Rogers, any of these guys, all their decisions that they make that are ancillary to the sport they play are sort of injected back into the view of them as an athlete. So if we look at, say, you know, Aaron Rogers and we say to ourselves, well, there are all these issues that I have with sort of his worldview maybe somebody has. They try to kind of fit these into our perception of him as a quarterback. And there was less of that in the past.

I mean, the idea of looking at an athlete seriously for his political views outside of, you know, Muhammad Ali and these kind of, you know, Jim Brown to a degree, Kareem to a degree. there wasn't an expectation where now that expectation is sort of applied across the board, that every person who kind of comes into the public eye as an as a on the field or on the court performer, we also are considering what we think their moral worldview is, you know, and that's something that does seem to have come with social media. That wasn't part of traditional institutional media that much. I don't think I was outraged on KD, but my take today was the recent. in the market for him as small as this.

So he couldn't play with a domineering player like Westbrook. Okay, I get that. Then he couldn't play long term with selfless players like Golden State. That's odd. Now he can't play with a friend, Kyrie. Who can he play with? Well, I mean, you know, we're talking about, we were just referencing earlier. I mean, this is no brilliant insight.

But KD has definitely been the most damaged by the social media era of any, of any athlete I can think of. That in terms of like, like, it's not that he's the only guy who cares as much. A lot of these guys do, but he is the most talented athlete who seems to have a hard time separating himself from how he is perceived. He said not even a hard time and impossible time, where I actually think that his perception of himself is mostly just push back against what other people seem to tell him. Like his whole life is that way. I mean, I don't know. I guess I feel sorry for him in some ways. But, you know, because people would say like, well, he should just turn off his phone or whatever.

But like, that's not the person he is. You know, I was a rock critic and a movie critic and stuff like that. So when I put books out, my books get reviewed. Sometimes the reviews are bad. It bothers me. People say just don't read them. It's like, so I spent my whole life reading reviews about other things, about, you know, reading the Rolling Stone review about the second poison record.

Like, I was super interested in that when it came out. So now when people review my own work, I'm not supposed to care. I mean, I think that's how Kevin Durant feels. He's like, so there's all this conversation about people in the NBA. There are people talking about Kyrie. There's people talking about LeBron. There's people talking about Janus. But I'm not supposed to care what they're saying about me.

Like, it seems insane to him. Yeah. But what has happened is it is just, you know, my thing, I think what he should do. I don't know. Maybe there's like contractual rules against this. But I think what he should do is try to harness this weakness and make it into a strength. Kevin Durand should say from now on the rest of my career, I'm only going to sign one year deals. I'm just going to go to whatever team I think can put over the top. I'm going to be the ultimate mercenary. I'm going to see if I can win eight titles in eight years. And I think weirdly public sentiment would change in his favor. Then it would be like, oh, he owns this now. He actually is the ultimate winner. He only cares about winning. Like if he decided he was going to play for eight different teams in the next eight years, and the idea was every one of those teams was going to be like whoever fit.

Like he went to the Celtics this year. And then the year after that, he went to whoever took second the year after that. I think it would be an interesting career. That's one of the greatest sports ideas I've ever heard, honestly. But I don't know if I don't know if the contractors, because they used it in those deals where it was like a one plus one deal. Like LeBron kept signing. Yes. Where you'd say, yeah.

And I think that might be the only way. to do it. And I think some people would say, well, he's going to leave money on the table if he does this because you can't sign on a Supermax if he keeps signing one-year deals. But the amount of money he would make outside of the NBA would be insane. I mean, if all he did was go to somebody who was playing for the title every year for a decade, his public profile would be huge. And he would also be perceived kind of in the present tense the way we believe Jordan used to be, this merciless guy who would do whatever it took to win a title. So I think that would actually be the best thing he could do. Just like completely give up this idea that he cares about team identity

at all, that he's just a guy. This baseball season turn K's into cash, big hits into big wins with Fandall Sportsbook. Okay, right now, new customers. Step up to the plate. No sweat first bet up up to a thousand bucks. Here it is. Sign up. Place your first bet. Fandle will give you. Listen to this, up to $1,000 back in free bets. If you don't win. You get paid fast. It's safe and secure. Great promotions every day.

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Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clever Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way,

this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

I haven't talked to Marcus Thompson since the Warriors won the championship. He's the author of KD, a great sports book. I think he's the best NBA reporter columnist in the league today. He also wrote Golden about Steph Curry. his current book is dynasties, the 10 goat teams that changed the NBA forever. So when we talked, we were in the middle of the series. And there was a lot of anticipation and there was anxiety.

And then the Warriors were clearly the better team the last three games. I try not to be a fan. I try to be like a judge overseeing a case. And I can be objective. But I've got to be honest. I found myself rooting for the Warriors. I like this story. I like the Clay story.

I like the Draymond story. I like Steph winning the MVP. When you cover a team and you have relationships and you saw how bad they were two years ago, is it ever hard not to be a fan? I think the fan part, I got the mushy's and the warm and tinglies from it, honestly, being in Boston. Like, it felt like when you, when I, when I came at watching basketball, It was Magic and Bird, right?

And, you know, we were, we were Lakers. It was West Coast against the Celtics. And there was this kind of hatred. And then I'm from Oakland. So you hear about Bill Russell, right? And it was like, it felt like I was transported into history ahead of time with Steph Curry becoming this like ultra legend. Yeah.

Inside Boston Guard, right? So it's definitely like, I don't know how you not be a fan of hoop, of watching like that level of great. You know what I'm saying? Right. The chaos and craziness that is a drunk Celtics crowd. Like that stuff was epic, man. It wasn't like, that's fun. And it was definitely like, it was fun.

It's probably the best way I can say it. Like, it was a lot of fun. Watched it unfold, witnessing it happen. And the truth is, and I know him well, like that meant a lot of stuff. Like watching him crying on the court collar. Like, not like a thug tear. that was an ugly cry, right? That was snotting on daddy's shoulder, right?

You could tell that meant to him. And so as someone who watched the journey the whole way, that was like, hey, yo, this is for real. Like, it really means this, right? So I don't know how you not have some kind of warm and tingleys watching that unless you just, you know, hate the Warriors. You know, it was interesting. And maybe the Rudy Gobert five-pick, four-player trade screwed the market up.

But increasingly, there's not a huge, huge market for Kevin Durant. And, you know, I said this the other day, Marcus, where the media, myself included, make a big mistake, is that we like mobility. Fans really don't. Fans want to root and wrap their arms around players. The Cleveland Cavaliers this year had the second highest ratings in the league with no LeBron.

The lowest ratings, the Brooklyn Nets with all the stars. Yeah. And I said this about Kevin Durant. I can like him, but he doesn't allow you to put your arms around him. It's hard. Aaron Rogers has this in Green Bay. He never lets you hug him. Yeah.

And I think some of the market for Kevin Durant is that we know he's great, but we don't know what he's thinking. And we have to give up so much to get him. Like, are you surprised the market? I mean, Phoenix now may do. a sign and trade with the Pacers, meaning they're out of the Kevin Durant market. Are you surprised the market has dried up? I'm not because, like, nothing like having to give up five picks

reminds you he's 34, right? Like, it's like, wait a second. This isn't a 26-year-old KD. And if you're going to give up that much, now you start looking for warts, right? It's like, hey, man, I really want this. I like it. it. But once you see the price, now at that point, you're thinking the reason is not to buy it. And Kevin Durant's got some reasons, right? Like, as great as he is, he's got some reasons.

I do think you're right, though. There's a difference between, like, respect and adoration, right? People respect his game, but how, like, you don't feel this massive, I will fight you in the streets for his name and his honor, right? Like, you feel with some other stars. And I do think he has a role in that, Right. I do think like the movement has a part of it. But I also think like he constantly tells people, you don't know what I'm thinking. You don't know what makes me happy. Well, it's like, yo, I kind of don't actually. So it's hard to like know you know you, right? His story doesn't get like, I think his story's incredible. And I don't think he gets told enough. Like the his role to this point is kind of like, yeah, whatever. But it's really a great story. Right. About a dude who made it kind of from nothing and used basketball. to keep himself sane and safe. But you're right.

Like you've got to be able to hug him emotionally, spiritually. You got to be able to be with him. And he spent the last, you know, what, five, six years telling you why you don't have that relationship with him. So I do think that's different. And, you know, I think all parties can have some responsibility, that including him. But some people, though, they will, I mean, there are some players who don't deserve such fans and have them, right?

like Russell Westbrook, friends will fight you in the streets about Russell Westbrook, right? James Harder fans will go in on you. They're finding your address because you don't get to talk about James Hardin like that, right? I do think there's a, there's a price to pay because as great as KD is, he should have that in droves, right? But something is not connected in that way. Yeah, I mean, I've moved a lot in my career. The downside of mobility is you always kind of feel like an outsider. I mean, you're from Oakland.

You work in the Bay, right? No question. You're an insider. Even at Fox. I was local. I was at ESPN. I'm at Fox. Not that they haven't treated me well.

But there's people that have been working at that shop for 35, 40 years. Yeah. When I walk in, I wish it was home. But I understand, like, am I home or am I a visitor? And that makes me respect it more. I, when I walk into Fox, I always feel like, this is not my building, right? Like, I can be let go. My contract runs out.

So, and that's not a knock. It's just when you're mobile, like in the Bay Area, you are home covering the right team for who Marcus Thompson is. Yeah, absolutely. This is my seventh state I lived in. You're a nomad. You're a nomad. You're a professor. No, you ain't a nobath.

I do. There is like bonus points for being. situation. I mean, look, we respect Dirk Novinsky's one championship over a few people, like two or three, just because he did it in one place. That's right. And that was

a sacrifice like Kevin Durant made leaving Oklahoma City. He's going to have to stack up enough championships where it's like how many do you need to be more valuable than at one you would have got in Oklahoma City that people thought you should have got right? There is like bonus points, bonus adoration, whatever.

is. Yeah. If you sit down in one spot and ride it out. I don't even know if that's fair, Colin. I feel like if I want to go to New York, I can and I should be able to and you should love me just the same. But no, ain't no love for me like it is in the bay because, you know, the dirt is in my skin. You know what I'm saying? Well, listen, Michael Jordan. We watch the pistons tackle him. Isaiah wouldn't shake his hand. We watched the Celtics tackle him. We watched the death of his father. We watched the comeback. We watched the flu game.

And then we watch the documentary or he's fighting with his general manager. Right. I think a big part of the Michael Jordan love is he got his ass kicked a lot. And he lost a lot. Personally, professionally. No question. Makes Michael so much easier to embrace. Like, you know, I've said this.

My wife always jokes. She says you have balance. You have a chip on both shoulders, right? Like Brady, even though he's great looking, has a model wife, he's won a bunch. There's still something about being drafted in the six-round. Six-round pick from Michigan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I find it incredibly likable.

With Durant, it got tough in Oklahoma City. He left. It got a little uncomfortable in the bay, and he left. He's got four years left in Brooklyn. He left. Man, it's hard to deny when the going gets tough. tough, he gets on a plane. That's kind of what a lot of fans see, Marcus.

No question. And, you know, people don't remember the early years if you don't stay either, right? Like, fair or not, nobody's talking about, hey, man, Oklahoma City was trash, and then you won 60 games a year with them and took them to the finals, right? Like, people just don't, I don't know if they don't have the attention spans or just you lose that equity once you leave. but I do agree that like, yo, we love Jordan because we remember, like, Jordan was born in rebellion, beefing with the league about wearing black socks and the wrong color shoes, right?

Like he was a rebel from the beginning. He was an underdog from the beginning. Now, he became Jordan and this huge co-following, but those of us who will fight you in the streets for him, we were the ones who remember where he was getting fined for black socks and baggy shorts, right? Step the same way, right? The injuries, the like, you know, wasn't supposed to be much coming out of Davidson, like you get to keep that credibility,

that earned accrued adoration when you stay home. And I do think when you leave people forget, they do forget that Kevin Durant built Oklahoma City into something. And he endured and he probably could have left four years earlier. Like the choice that we wanted him to make, he made it the first time. He had to sign an extension. And he's like, remember, I'm staying home. I don't want to jump. I'm signing a five-year deal. I'm staying right here. And I can understand why in a player's mind, you're like, that has earned me the right to leave. I gave you nine years. Like, I did everything I could.

I have earned the right to leave. But that's not how fans work. Like that type of rationale don't work with fans. Fans are like, you dipped on me. So all that stuff previously don't care. It doesn't count, right? That's the game, yo. And, you know, that's what Omar from the wire said.

The game is the game. So the Summer League, it's much bigger than that. now than five years ago. It's always been fun. But I think in the slowest time of the sports year, the NBA has done a really good job to market it. The NBA game is global. There's more people watching it globally. The Chet Holmgren story is fascinating to me because there are moments on the floor. He looks completely overwhelmed. And then there are moments on the floor. You're like, there's a lot of Dirk. Monster. There's a lot of Dirk Novitsky here, but better defensively. When you talk to your people that you really trust and they, they're not getting quoted,

it's just talking like guys talking. What do they really say about Chet Hongren? I want to see how he passes his test. He's got one of them bodies that make people think, yeah, he's good, but he's soft. Right. And they're going to test him, right? You saw Kenny Lofton Jr., like, I'm going to put my shoulder in your chest to see if you have the fortitude to deal with the NBA. I think they're watching to see, like, he's got the skill and anybody can develop some form of muscle.

Like, I don't think he ever read Dwight Howard, but he can get stronger, right? Right. The question will be, can he handle dudes coming for him night in and night out? Will he wiltz? Like, we've seen players who are skilled not be able to handle the assault of NBA players saying, not you. I wonder if you are tough, right? Like, it's why we love Steph, right?

in place. Like, you know, we just picked on them because there's some light skin dudes from the suburbs. Man,

let me see how tough you are. And then they're like, okay, let's go. They're going to do that with Chet. I do think most people

believe if he has that in him, then he's going to be great. Like, if he's got it in them, to answer back, to not get broken by it, to not become weak, to not blame other people.

But if he's got the mentality to say, all right, I'm going to get in this gym, I'm going to work, and you're not going to punk me forever. If he's got that,

then he's going to be good. If not, I don't know, but they're going to, oh, they're going to try him. They're going to come for his chest because it looks very comfortable. Yeah. I just made up a word right there. That's okay. I'm good with it. Are you shocked at what has happened to Westbrook?

Here's why I'm not shocked because you kind of saw this coming where once he lost his athleticism, he would lose a chunk of his game. but I feel like the what he's lost has sped past what his ability is, right? He still can do some things, but I think playing with LeBron being asked to play off the ball, like that Laker situation really trumped up his ward. No question. Right, like it really, it was like a blue light, right? You can see, hold on, man, you got a lot of stuff on you, let me stop.

And I think in other situations, you probably don't see it as much. Or if he's got the ball in his hand, he's ready to make play. like you'll see some more of the good and less of the bad. I do feel like he's being treated as if somebody who can do nothing. Like that's his market. But that's not even his game as much as it is how much he's making, right? It's 40s.

Again, it's like, yeah, that's a lot of money for that. But playing in that situation, man, I think it makes Russell Westbrook look worse than what he actually is. Like, he can still do some things. You put him, like you put him on a team like we saw in Washington where he could just cook. And yeah, he'll

make mistakes, he'll shoot a low percentage, but you'll see all the great things and what's the rest of him do. He just can't do all those things next to LeBron. So all you see is the like 20-something percent from three, right? That's all you see. But you put him in a different situation. I think he's way better than how we're acting. But that's also the price you pay in LA because the spotlight is tough, man. You got to be able to hold up under it. I think the blue light comments classic, because that's exactly it. You have to watch out for what you wish for in life. like, you know, in your business, you can work for the Akron B and do a great job. And then the Washington Post hires you and everybody reads you.

And then they pick apart your work. And I think Westbrook off ball is a completely limited player. And I also think, you know, the old saying pride before the fall, I think Russell Westbrook is incredibly prideful. Even at UCLA, if you remember, Marcus, they didn't know what to do with them. Like the Bruins did not know what to do with them. He was just talented. And then he goes to Oakland.

home a city and is blamed for KD leaving. Okay. Then he goes to Houston and he's blamed for that not working. So like, I get that he's defensive. And like now he's blamed for everything, even though AD isn't in shape and is never available. So right now I feel like he's so prideful that the shit's personal now. And then you got, you know, you got your commentators out there making fun of him and I rip him. But there's part of me that like has peeled back a couple times thinking, dude, he's

He's taken, he may not be that self-aware, but he's taken a beating. He has been blamed for every problem. Every team. It's like Washington wasn't good before him and they're not good after him. That wasn't a Westbrook issue. You know, like, I don't know. I think he's still good. I think he's still a serviceable player.

I wouldn't pay that much money for him. I think that's a big problem. Like him eating up that much of your cap works against him. I just, it's very uncomfortable to see. a dude who's that good being treated like some kind of dude who's be played in the summer league right and i appreciate darvin hamps and i'm happy about this i want to see what we can do i just don't know how he does it with the lakers whatever it is you need him to do right whatever the plan is where for the post 30s russell westbrook for him to ride these next

few years if it's maybe to play off ball if it's maybe to be more of a floor general if it's to turn into some kind of defensive focus where he ain't doing it in l.a where they just dogged him for a year right like he he ain't gonna be the one to change like hold on man uh i'm willing to take the sacrifice for the team like look how they like like he was the he was the outcast right he was the guy who was the problem so i feel like he's kind of got to go somewhere i feel like russell westbrook deserves a better ending than this you know what i'm saying like come on man this is russle westbrook and i always thought he had his flaws like there was limits to how great he is like there were obvious differences between him and some of the elite elite players.

But come on, that dude was great. He's a Hall of Famer. And he don't need to go out like this, man. Send that dude somewhere where we can see Russ one last time. Right. You know, instead of like riding out in the shadow of the Lakers drama. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman. documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space. For honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-taped Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little kill? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J.

And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now.

Thank you finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games.

And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase

that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it, and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid?

Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free, our heart radio app. Search, learn the hard way, and listen now. Let's bring in John Middlecop, my buddy, the former NFL scout.

So I had said on the show last week, the one place, now that Baker Mayfield's off the market, the one place that felt like it would work for Jimmy G was Tampa because he's such a good soldier. He's such a good guy that Brady may have more trouble with him than Jimmy would have been a backup to Brady. But now that Brady's going to leave after the year, it's like, I think it'll all be sympathical. Like it's, you know, Tom's not threatened by him. and Jimmy is going to get paid a lot of money to be in a really good football team. So there was a story of Sports Illustrated reported the Bucks and Jimmy G.

What do you make of it? I mean, it would make some sense, right? If you factor in that they don't really have, I mean, they would have been screwed. If Tom retired this year, what were they going to do? I mean, they were in major, major trouble. Like you said, I mean, he's either going to the Miami Dolphins next year or he's calling a quits.

I mean, it's pretty clear. I think Jimmy's in a weird spot because he's clearly good enough to be a starter at several places. Right. But, you know, the musical chairs have all ended. And now that Baker, part of the reason to me, Baker's there, is because Jimmy is a much more reliable human, clearly. Yeah.

But he's expensive. You know, they're paying Baker, you know, guaranteed the $3 million, then depending on how he plays, it might be able to more. But it's nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Jimmy is on the books for, if someone trades for him, unless he does some maneuvering,

I think it's almost $27 million. Right. So that's not the $50 million quarterback, but that's not the even the 18 million that Sam and Baker, you know, are both on the hook for. Now, obviously, Baker's getting split up. 18 is a lot less than 27. You know, when you talk about it's, you know, middle of July. So if Tampa, the thing is though Jimmy's contract ends, right, it's only one more year. Now it would make sense.

Tampa's a good spot. Jason Light, New England guy. They have some connections. Jimmy's a good guy. and he's a solid player, not a great player, not a bad player. I think you're really getting a good player or a good person who you feel comfortable can just get you through some stuff while you figure other things out. Yeah, I could see them saying, listen, get into our system, watch Tom for a year like you did in New England,

Tom's leaving the second the season's over and will give you two years at the helm. I could see them making a deal and I can see Jimmy G being comfortable with that. He's just the kind of guy that it would work. You know, you know a lot about the Niners. So Mike Silver was on this week. And, you know, his report was he had heard, you know, and fans only want rose colored glasses when you talk about their team. If you ever criticize their team, I mean, I've been making fun of the Raiders for 20 years. I've been right 20 straight years except last year.

And but Tray Lance, optically, it's an ugly release. It is not pretty. He's not a high completion guy. He's never going to be Drew Breeze. There are stories of arm fatigue. I trust my sources. They're keeping Jimmy G around. I think they believe that Jimmy, I think they believe Tray Lance can win games in this system.

It's a really favorable quarterback system. Matt Schaub made a Pro Bowl in this. Matt Ryan was an MVP. Jimmy Garoppolo won 70% of its games. You're not needing. Josh Allen here, guy hurtling over people. Lamar Jackson making plays with his feet. This is really built.

Just don't just don't pull the Mercedes into a tree. It is a little concerning. Isn't it when you hear various reporters? And I trust my sources that they've got, they do worry a little about his accuracy. Yeah, I thought the games that he played last year were not pretty. But if you were going to give him somewhat of a pass, right, small school guy that had the season wiped out, hadn't played.

So he was going to get this offseason. And I went to a lot of the OTA practices. I would say he's improved, but the arm release is still a work in progress. That is something Kyle kind of downplayed it. Like it's not a big deal. They are working on it. I had been told in the off season before the practices, he was trying to shorten up. And there were moments at practice where it was like, oh, that looked very compact, got out of it.

And then there were other, it's just muscle memory. So you resort, Josh Allen has a loopier release, but he gets rid of it fast. You know, there's a difference between having a longer release and still getting rid of it quickly and a longer release, you know, Tebow's the worst case. It takes a long, Sam Donald has a long loopy release. Now, the thing differentiates Trey from like Sam, for example, he does have power behind it. Now, to me, down the field, he's playing on a team, Colin, with, he has the best left tackle. He has arguably the best play caller, one of the best two or three.

he has a ton of running backs. He has a pro ball fullback, a pro ball tied in, a pro ball wide receiver. Brandon Ayuk's good. Joanne Jannings is going to be a good player. It's a perfect situation for the guy. They're going to run the ball a ton. They just need him to be... Jimmy wasn't at his moments last year.

He's not replacing Tom Brady here, right? Or Aaron Rogers. So the bar is not as high, I think, as we act. Now where the bar is high, the team's good. And the team expects to win double-digit games, compete in the playoffs, which is always difficult. You know, if you go back to Russell Wilson, right, and it was different circumstances because he was a third round pick. They played defense and they ran the ball and then he slowly became the star.

I think ultimately it's kind of they want that trajectory, right? Play good defense, run the ball, probably have more weapons in terms of throwing the ball than Russell did early on in his career. But to me, that's going to be Kyle's mindset, which right. There's a story that broke this weekend, and I don't know what the heck to do with it, that Zach Wilson's girlfriend broke up with him. because Zach Wilson is shagging his mom's best friend. And as I read that flying back to L.A., I'm like, what am I supposed to do with that? He's a good-looking kid.

It's two consenting adults. So I'll get past that. But I do think, I think Zach is really an interesting case because Jared Goff looked like a complete bust when he had the wrong coach, a defensive coach. Zach Wilson was wildly. inconsistent last year. But if you told me I had to pick Zach Wilson or Robert Sala going forward, I'd pick Zach Wilson.

I think he's got real talent. I think he moves well. He's got a really quick release. He's got a lot of heat on it. You know, his judgment, he's young. Guys do what they do. This story doesn't in any way screw up his career. But like if you were, if you were, this is New York City, they have tabloids.

if you were in the Jets and read that story, would you say, oh shit? Or would you just be like, I don't care? Well, it's kind of twofold. There's nothing you can do. But you and I talked about this last year before the draft. He's coming from, you know, Utah and then at Provo at BYU, it's very isolated area to New York. Where the franchise, whether he went to the Giants or the Jets, it's a disaster. Right.

So these stories, it's not like they can just talk about, well, they won two playoff games last year. this thing is just going to, this is going to be a talking point right there with the Yankees for the next week. And I sneaky think, Colin, there's a lot of pressure on the Jets, not to make the playoffs, but you can't have another four-win season. You've got back-to-back drafts. You now have a quarterback. You have multiple wide receivers. You draft a running back.

You draft all these offensive line. And he signed all these defensive guys. Robert Salo was interviewing twice, you know, a couple years ago, then he finally gets the job where he's interviewing everywhere. My issue with younger coaches, and I'm a little biased because I work for, Coach Reed, who calls the plays. I've been around Kyle who calls the place. But when you're a young coach, I would say like 45 and under and I hire you, I want you to call the side of the ball why I'm hiring you. Like, I'm not hiring you for to be the CEO like you're a 62 year old. Robert Sal was in his early 40s. The defense was awesome. Then he gets the Jets job and he gives it all,

he gives the defensive coordinator job away. Like I want him to call place. Look at McVeigh. Look at the floor. Look at Kyle. And I know it's a little different. Zimmer, coaches can do it on defense. Right. And he's not calling defense. It's like he's a good guy. He's a raw, raw guy. But I'd also like his schematic impact.

And that's why you brought LaFleur's brother to call the offense. But I think the Jets, you know, I don't think they don't have to win nine, ten games to make the playoffs. But I do not think they can just be a train wreck. Like, what's the point of these last two years? You got to make some progress eventually. Yeah. And it's also troubling because I think Miami smartly pivoted to the offensive side of the ball. And I think two is going to play very well.

We know Buffalo is head and shoulders. above everybody. I'm going to pick Miami over New England because I don't think Belichick without Tom. How about Josh, Colin? Matt Patricia might call their offensive plays. Matt Patricia, that's insane. It's a little bit of a disengaged 2022 mess. You know, what it goes to show you, what the Patriots go to show you in this league, John,

if you don't have the right quarterback, shit gets ugly fast. Pete Carroll, they're going to be a three-win team. Belichick. Zimmer's a very good coach. Vic Fangio is a top five defensive mind. You don't have the quarterback right. You look like you're lost. I think one thing the Patriot people will say, though, is one constant, even when Tom left, remember, they had Cam Newton and somehow went seven to nine and last year was Josh.

I mean, Josh has been there 90% of the time. And now he's gone and he took, like they handled Patricia leaving. They handled Flores leaving. They've lost defensive coaches. But for the most part, Josh has been the constant. And the one time they lost Josh, Bill O'Brien came right in. Obviously, I know people think he's a village idiot, but he's not that bad, obviously, right? He went to the playoffs.

He's with Nick Saban. I think the Josh lost from people I know that have been around that, I think it could be crippling. No, Eric Manjini, who won three rings there, has been very reluctant to ever criticize Belichick. He has told me twice, I think both times on the air, people do not understand that Josh McDaniels was probably once Kyle Shanahan got a head coaching job, the best OC in the game. And it may not be that close. He's like, you just, you know, Josh McDaniels is in that two or three, you know, Lafleur was a top OC. Shanahan was.

I don't know. You know, I've said this is that it's Greg Popovich. age very quickly when the superstar exits. And if you ever believe the culture is bigger than the players, and I think Popovich and Belichick have kind of embraced that. It gets ugly fast. I mean, San Antonio is not in the discussion as a top seven team, eight team in the West. They're just not in the discussion.

Haven't been in years. And we think he's the best coach in basketball. Make sure to check out the Dramon Green Show. I brought Draymond Green into the volume because one of the more entertaining voices in sports, unique perspective, understands behind the rope. Also chops up with guests like Gary Payton, Zach Levine, Tracy McGrady. Make sure download the Draymond Green Show wherever you get your podcast, only on the volume podcast network.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Oden, to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me.

84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. It was a wild year. It was a wild year.

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the Fourth. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media.

Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.