The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts -  Coach K on NIL Explosion, Epic ‘91 UNLV Upset, Nick Wright on Lamar Landing Spots, Reese/Clark Aftermath

Episode Date: April 8, 2023

This is Prime Cuts! The best of The Colin Cowherd Podcast. First, Colin’s top takes of the week, including why Iowa’s Caitlin Clark and LSU’s Angel Reese don’t need to be protected by the media following their Women’s National Championship Game confrontation, and why MLB rules speeding up the game are good for MLB’s bottom line. Then, Former Duke Head Coach and five-time national champion Mike Krzyzewski on why the NCAA Tourney upsets are here to stay, what it was like for Duke's new coach to replace him, dealing with the NIL issues, why this college basketball season was so unusual, his reaction to the idea of a position-less basketball team, the NBA star who was too far ahead of his time, how he knew which recruits would turn into stars, the coaches he loved facing, and his memories of Duke's legendary 1991 Final Four upset over juggernaut UNLV. Then, First Things First co-host - and host of the What's Wright? podcast - Nick Wright joins Colin to discuss the fallout of the Reese/Clark trash talk, how the NBA can incentivize teams to stop shutting down stars down the regular season stretch, his biggest concern about likely NBA  #1 pick Victor Wembanyama, if Bryce Young’s size should concern NFL teams in the Draft, and which QB needy teams should consider trading for Lamar Jackson. Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates, and check out FanDuel for the best wagering and daily fantasy action!  #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Volume. This is Prime Cuts, the best of the Colin Coward podcast.

Two great guests this week. Coach K, former Duke legend, joined me. Right before Yukon rolled to the title, no surprises there. He told me why he wasn't surprised by Yukon's success and told a great story about one of the great shots in Duke history. Plus, my buddy Nick Wright, hit a bunch of topics. We always do. But first, my top takes of the week. I want to start with some thoughts on Caitlin Clark, the Iowa basketball star, and Angel Reese,

the great player for the national champion LSU club. Sometimes social media is truth serum. People show you their lack of discipline by what they post. People show you their politics, their leanings. They show you their temper. I'm always amazed at people who think they're invisible on Twitter. For the record, folks, we have 30 employees now and growing at the volume. I've literally not hired people because of how they act on social media.

Watching the media on this Caitlin Clark Angel Reese situation was really striking. One of the reasons I think women's basketball is so much. much better today than 20 years ago is because it's feisty and there's a little trash talk and it's a little chippy and there's a little more physicality pushing and shoving from time to time. That's the ultimate sign of growth because we've had that men's basketball forever. Women's basketball more than any sport in this country has improved over 25 years. More young women are being encouraged to be athletes. It's always been cool, but a lot of people didn't get it and didn't encourage women. When you watch LSU and you watch Iowa, the people that rushed to Caitlin Clark's

defense because of some taunting by Angel Reese, timeout, that's called one road trip for Patrick Beverly. We don't rush to NBA men's defense. It's part of AAU. It's part of college basketball. It's part of now all basketball. Nobody took a swing. Nobody tried to physically intimidate Caitlin Clark. And let's stop there. Do you understand to get to the highest levels of any form of basketball, women's basketball? Do you understand how tough you have to be?

How resilient you have to be? Do you know how competitive Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese are? Since they picked up a basketball, People try to intimidate them, box them out, get chippy. That's called basketball. I watched Larry Bird trash talk and Gary Payton trash talk. If you really respect women, then allow them the same freedoms that we allow men. Verbal sparring is part of the sport.

I watched Dr. J. and Larry Bird throw punches at each other. It didn't end their careers. they were able to overcome it 10 minutes later. Caitlin Clark, when asked about Angel Reese, I'll read you the quote. We're competitive. We show her emotions in different way. She's tremendous. I have nothing but respect for.

I love her game. The way she rebounds, scores the ball incredible. I'm a big fan of her. Stop pandering. She's okay. She's tough. She can handle it. Show the same respect you would.

A guy playing basketball. He can handle some. trash talk. You know, years ago, I worked with somebody named Christine Leahy. She did the Herdline News Update. And she was in her mid-20s. And LeVar Ball came on the show and started, took some verbal shots at her. Didn't try to physically intimidate her, but took some verbal shots at her. And I didn't rush to her defense because she immediately landed two or three of her own verbal shots. And I didn't want to make her look weak. I thought the old ultimate sign of respect to either Jason McIntyre, Christine Leahy, Joy, Taylor is their equals.

They can handle some sparring and trash talk. I mean, I have strong opinions about athletes. Can I not handle a strong athlete having an opinion about me? The point is, if you really respect women, then you have to respect them enough to understand they can handle it. right? They can handle it. Caitlin Clark's fantastic. Angel Reese is fantastic. I don't want to hear about, well, when's the last time that you saw a winning team taunt a losing player? Oh, I don't know, all throughout the college football season.

Are you kidding me in these rivalries? I remember Baker Mayfield grabbing his junk on the sideline. I got guys at the coin toss talking. trash in college football. One of the most amazing parts of the women's final four. A little bit of chippiness. A little intimidation. People trying to get into each other's heads.

Women's basketball is officially arrived. They can defend themselves. Caitlin Clark's going to come back. She's going to be an All-American. Iowa will probably be one of the favorites to win the national championship. but to get to the top of even college sports, college baseball, college women's men's basketball, college football, college wrestling, it doesn't matter what it is.

Do you know how tough and resilient you have to be as an athlete, a man or a woman? Show the women respect. I probably like the business side of sports more than you do, but I like it. And one of the cool things about owning this company, the volume, I can talk about what I want to talk about. And a lot of this stuff I don't talk about on FS1 or Premier Radio. So the WWE has been purchased by a company that had previously purchased the UFC. Now the WWE and the UFC together will form a separate company.

And here's why it's interesting to me. I know Nick Conn and Dana White, who run the WWE and the UFC respectively. And boxing, because it's been so poorly managed forever, has really wilted and mostly vanished. There are occasional fights I like, but it's just not consistently delivering entertainment. And I said this years ago, and I covered boxing in Vegas, that the UFC took advantage of the scarcity of boxing matches, the cost, whenever the there was a good one. So UFC, whether you like it or not, just delivers a more consistent product. WWE, same, delivers a more consistent product. And so to combine those two for a new business to me is utterly fascinating. And I went to the WrestleMania with my son on Saturday

night at SoFi. I knew I could watch on YouTube TV highlights of the college basketball games, which I did Sunday morning. So the best of, way to describe 80,000 people at WrestleMania is if you take yourself or you take life too seriously, you're probably missing the point on WrestleMania. I don't think my son, who's not a big sports fan, you know, he likes to ski, he likes to water ski, anything in the pool he's good with. He's played a little

basketball, little soccer, a little football, but not really a team sports kid. The environment, I haven't seen him laugh like that. I haven't seen him smile like that for three straight hours, I couldn't tell you when. It's just a spectacle. And, you know, I watched it as a kid, and then he used to lampoon, make fun of wrestling fans. But then when you have kids, things change. And as a dad, I'm always looking for connecting points with my son, who's very much into science and tech, two things I'm not necessarily into. So I'm always looking for, like, connecting points.

And so I told them, I said, we're going to go to this. And I have a feeling. you're not going to know all the storylines, but you're just going to boo and share thumbs up, thumbs down, and we've got pretty good seats. And I got to tell you, it was as good at night as I've had in a long time.

And I've said this before. My wife isn't into sports. She loves going to UFC because she likes the spectacle, the crowd, the glamour, the cocktails. My favorite sports to go to for years and years was boxing. But there's just not that many fascinating boxers or boxing matches. So I just found that story at WWE and UFC being combined.

I can't wait. My wife and my son's favorite thing to go to. And now they've morphed. Can't wait. So Mike, I thought it was, it's an interesting year. I follow recruiting. So Kentucky, Duke, Michigan State, Yukon are having very vibrant recruiting years.

So I imagine next year the big brands will be back at the top of college basketball. That's my guess. Or has the transfer portal created a new phenomenon where the San Diego states, the Florida Atlantics, are going forward going to have older players, elite transfers. How do you view this wacky kind of unique? March Madness this year? Well, I think it's a sign of the times, Colin. And I think there's going to be a mixture. And they're going to be more really good teams.

I'm not sure how many great teams. Because to be great, I think you have to be together for a little bit more than one year. And so over the years, we've had good recruiting classes. And we've been able to try to mesh them in one. year and then a lot of them go. Well, now, when they were talking about one and done, there are about 1,800 one and done's in the transfer portal. And so no, each year in the last few years, so probably be more of this year. And so how can people build chemistry in one year? And so the people who go to the transfer portal a lot, they're going to have to spend time trying to figure out

how they develop culture. I just think like when the year started, I said it's going to be wide open. And I didn't think it would be this wide open. But it's wide open. And I don't think anything's going to change next year. You know, replacing a legend is hard. I think you did it the right way.

You gave it a lot of thought. Right. And John Shire to me really works. But have you ever thought, okay. because if I'm John Shire, I'm like, okay, I want to be respectful to Coach K and the culture, but what if there's something I really like that really is different than Mike? Like, have you ever thought about replacing you as not the easiest thing in the world? Well, yeah, I've talked to my wife about it and that time she said that it wouldn't be that hard.

But most of the time she said it would be hard. You know, it's not just picking the right person, but giving the amount of time that's needed. John was with me for nine years. And when he was announced as the head coach, we had a runway of about 17 months before he ever coached. So he could recruit two classes on his own. In other words, with them knowing that I'm not going to be the coach and the developed relationships that were needed. And I think you saw it this year. He had great relationships with his team.

And we had an outstanding year. I've always told me, just be you, man. Being you, a lot of what you are will be us because we've spent so much time together, but you can't fill someone's shoes. Just be comfortable in the shoes you're wearing and you know our culture and you develop it the way that you think is right. I have all the confidence in the world in John. I am a big fan of new things but also regulation, be it Wall Street or Towers. I am for the transfer portal and NIL, but there needs to be guardrails for everything.

It doesn't matter if it's our freeways, our government, Silicon Valley or college sports. It was a little to me wild, wild west for the first 15 months. It was just the gold rush, right? Is there anything you see so far if you could make a change and go like on the NIL? Let's start with the transfer portal because the NIL, some schools are just not going to participate. taking it, but transfer portals here for everybody. Is there anything you would say, hey, let's be very careful of this or maybe alter this? Yeah, I think first of all, Colin, you know, both concepts are really good. There were intended consequences

that are easy to see, you know, an athlete should be allowed to, you know, to benefit from their name image and likeness. An athlete should have the opportunity to move. And so, okay, that sounds really good. Yeah, but if it's a business, you say, okay, these are the intended consequences. What would be the unintended? In other words, put the guardrails up before you let the horses out. And once they're out, like, I don't see how you can control NIL completely. And it's a pre-market.

Yeah. Like, if you have a better NIL than me, what are you going to give it up? Is someone going to put a limit? Where do we put a limit on anybody in our society and how much they make? And so the transfer portal, I think it's been confused a little bit with the extra year of COVID. You see, I mean, that combination, NIL, add that to it, add that to it. And so you have guys who, you know, they're at three different schools, you know, they're in a five-year period. I think the average age was a year and a half older this year than it's normally been for college and for college teams.

And the thing that happens, too, when these kids stay, there are less scholarships for the high school kids. And so that was not an intended consequence. I think, you know, I think, first of all, if we think Congress is going to solve all this, we got to be loony tunes here. And, but they, the main thing Congress can do is to make it equitable in every state, which it isn't. Transfer portal is equitable. NIL is not. There are some states that don't allow it. And so it's got to be equal for everybody.

And, you know, my big thing, I wish we could take men's and women's basketball and make its own entity just like football is. and be autonomous, have a certain foundation of rules with the NCAA, but let our two sports, our sport be run like a business, have a marketing plan, have, you know, be autonomous. Football is autonomous. The game of basketball is not. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque, others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Clipper Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, personal health, personal health, personal. purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Speaking of the game of basketball, I just read where the NBA is proposing going forward, a positionless all-NBA team, which, and I remember years ago, I worked in Portland. This is a long time ago. Bob Witts was the GM. And I remember Bob's smart guy saying, Colin, you guys in the media get too caught up on positions. I just want good long, fast, twitchy basketball players. I don't care. So Bob was about 20 years ahead of me.

Right. Unintended consequence, I do like an old school point guard who distributes first, score, second. That's me. I'm probably outdated. What do you make a positionless basketball? Or does LeBron make everybody think it's easy? Or the truth is, positions are pretty good. It's just LeBron's blown it up because he can do anything.

Well, you know, your love for the point guard, I'm a point guard. So in some essence, you have a love for me. but maybe it's not that big. But the old-fashioned point guard just doesn't exist or it's like an extinct animal right now. You know, really in the late 80s and early 90s, we started at Duke what I call positionless. I always used to tell my staff and family, look, this isn't a baseball team. There's not a third baseman. They go to a position.

Why the heck do we have guards? forwards and centers. You know, just introduce them as players. In other words, like you and I are two of the top four players on a team, and we are both the two guard. Am I only going to play one of us, or am I going to play my four best players? I'm going to play both of us.

So why put a limit on us saying that, you know, we're two guards? We're really good basketball players, and both of us can shoot. I always like saying that. because I wasn't I wasn't referred to as a good shooter. That analogy. Actually, I feel pretty good about it. Well, you were a defender and you were tough. You had the many of the Chris Paul qualities I like,

which is that's where I'm very much about I like the new basketball. I think it's very, very skilled. I covered Arvita Sabonis, who was pre-yokic, almost like a point seven. No, he would have been the greatest player, great. If he was here young, you know, young, like in his early 20s, he would be one of the top five or 10 players in the history of the game. Yeah. No question about it. You got him later in his probably mid-30s or something. Yes. Yeah. But he was a great player, not a good. Oh, I mean, Mike, he would hit a 24-footer and he would make a behind-the-back pass. I got the

heavy-footed Arvita Subonis. Yes. A remarkable player and a fun guy to cover. So do you remember because really what you, you, you, you, Nick Saban, it doesn't matter if it's Beheim, Mark Few, your talent accumulators. So what you're doing is you're, and you're finding kids who aren't fully developed emotionally, physically. It's very difficult.

A pro football coach, I get four years of film through college. I know what he can and can't do. you're taking kids. I'm a late. I'm a, I blossomed late, I think, in my career. I think a lot of people do. How often do you see a player? And did you know instantly, oh, okay.

That person will be a pro. Now, at Duke, I think a lot of people would suggest, oh, it's Duke guys. But you've recruited some three star guys in your career. I follow it. how often did you see a LeBron-ish player and go, okay, that's done? Or do players develop more slowly than most of us think? Yeah, well, there are a few.

I mean, you can see Zion if Grand Hill was in this time. Yes. You know, those players, Jason Tatum, you know, Bagley. Wendell Carter could probably say it another year. But no, you can see it. But you also can see like where are their bodies? In other words, do they fit the dimensions of an NBA player? Wink span.

It's not just height. It's wing span. Speed. Okay. And then are they, where are they emotionally? You know, we try to recruit kids with good character because they're going to, in order to not just to get there, but to stay, they're going to have to have balance. And so we're able to see that pretty much.

With the guards, like when I saw Tyos Jones the first time, I said, wow, this kid's like a machine. Now, he is an old point guard. Right, right. And when he has his name on that ball, you can't, when he throws it, you better catch it because he doesn't want to turn it over. When I saw him the first time, I said, I got to have him. I didn't know that he would be a pro right away. I felt that he would be a pro after a while. Mike Dunleavy, when we recruited him, he saw out of Portland.

Yeah. And he was 6.6.5, 175, had no hair on his chest, did not shave. Three years later, he was 6, 9 and 1⁄2.30. Yeah. And so there's some guys, Brandon Ingram, when we recruited him, I told his parents, they were going to the McDonald's game. I said, we're not allowed. The first day, you know, the pro people will be there. Your son will be a top five draft pick after the workout. And they said, what do you mean? I said, he's got all the dimensions. He's got, you know, not only that, but he can play any position.

He can be a guard. And so you can see those type of things and predict them. And some kids, you can't. Badiye did not fit. He wasn't a great athlete. But after a while, he became, he was intellectually ahead of others. And in today's game, the younger players are not, they're more athletic, but they're not as savvy about the game

as the players even five years ago. That's something with all the workout guys and that. They're great, but they teach you stuff with the ball. And if we're playing a 40-minute game in college, if you have the ball three minutes, that's a lot. So you better learn the game without the ball. You've got to learn to get your shot before you get the ball. That's not taught to the level that it used to be.

So I think we're getting better athletes, but more undertaught players as far as the game goes. I always love when the Patriots play the Chiefs, because I get a chess match between Belichick's brain and Andy Reid's. I love that. I love when they play. Was there a coach? And maybe it's a well-known coach. It's a Jim Calhoun. It's a Dean Smith.

But is there a coach maybe that I wouldn't think of off the top of my head that you love the intellectual chess match, that he was just move for move? You always knew it was not only. between Duke and a team, it was between you and that coach. Yeah, I think the frequency of the time competed against Dean Smith, you know, because he, you know, he was a remarkable coach and he had immense loyalty from his, from his players. You know, he really, really wanted great coaches of any sport. my buddy Jim Valvano

this spontaneity of doing anything at any time there was some predictability with some coaches up to a point and then there was the unpredictability of like Jim and but you know sometimes you play against the you coach against the team that you say I don't know if I can coach a team better John Becker at Vermont, you know, and who year after year just produces that high level of team. I thought one of my good friends, Fran Duffy, who got back into college coaching when he was to

coach at Penn, he was on a decade movement of just he got it at a high level. But, I think you weren't from coaching against all different types of people, but those are a few of the ones that made an impact on me. I remember covering, I was a young sportscaster. I was in Denver. Bobby Hurley had a bout with stomach sickness. I'll leave it at that. Yeah. And so I remember you saying it could have been to me or a group because I was in Vegas as a

sportscaster. Right. You, and this meant so much to Tark. I can't tell you how much this meant to Tark. You said, we play hard at Duke. I've never seen any team play that hard between Gurgrich and Tark. And I covered Tark. You have no idea.

You and Mickey were very complimentary of him. It meant so much to him. And I was, I look back at your career. And I think that's one of your great moments because that team was stocked. Yeah. So you lost in Denver the following year. One of your stars was a true freshman. You'd been beaten badly by him the year before.

There was a psychology there. Go back to the time you beat you in LV. If I said to you three or four moments of your career, I remember walking out of that game and thinking, I don't think the media gets what just happened. I thought it was just an incredible moment. You know, I've done a lot of speaking. And since I retired, I did a couple commercials.

I've done some things and one of the statements and wanted to commercials was close the gap. And we were able to close the gap from 90 to 91. Grand Hill helped us close that gap.

Yep. But also the experience, we were pretty good. But then we got to be really good. And the 91 semi-final Final Four game with Vegas is one of the epic games

in the history of our sport. Yeah. One, I had Jerry Tarkini and I were good friends, and I had ultimate respect because anybody who can get his team to play that hard with that, especially that level of talent, you got to be crazy good. But we were really, really good.

And I thought what helped us in that game was that it was the semi-final, not the final. They had one-forty, five in a row. They had beaten us. Psychologically, we have an advantage. You know, we do have an advantage. And they had destroyed everybody.

No, not beaten. Crushed. Crushed. Everybody. So we got, we were talking about, if we can get them in the last few minutes, we've been there before. They haven't been there before. and everyone talks about

Laytoner shot against Kentucky and which they should but one of the defining moments for me was Hurley shot with just over two minutes to go I think they had gone up by five and Tark went to his amoeba defense

and before I could say anything to call out anything Hurley comes down and he jacks up with three and he hits it so for me I think in possessions two point there were three two-point possessions up. His shot knocked it down to one two-point possession.

It was really one of the biggest shots for my career that a player took. And I didn't call it. I didn't call it. And then we were fortunate. We got their guard filed out. You know, and Greg Anthony. And Leitner hit some free throws. And God bless America, you know, we won.

A lot of sad people in Sin City. Believe me, I was a sportscaster there. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. So let's welcome in Nick Wright. You know him, you love him. First things first. What's right with Nick Wright?

So I was saying in my six, seven minute preamble to you is the ultimate respect to women is they can handle themselves. And that Caitlin Clark is not a. a lamb to be able to get to the highest level of any division one sport, baseball, football, hockey, wrestling, women's basketball. You've been mocked. You've been taunted. You've been boxed out. You've probably taken a punch.

These women are feisty and they talk trash. And the ultimate respect isn't rushing to their defense. It's realizing they can handle themselves. She's nobody's underdog, Colin. Listen, Angel Reese is awesome. Angel Reese is you. Some of the people commenting like, oh, who was Angel Reese to trash talk? She was the fourth leading score.

In that game, she also set the all-time record for double doubles in a season, was the first team All-American, was the MVP of the goddamn tournament. So Andrew Reese, when they win the championship, allowed to talk trash if she wants. Now, Caitlin Clark was the best player in the country. And I know for some people, because of Angel Reese's race and size, they looked at her talking trash different than Caitlin Clark talking trash. It's nonsense.

And Caitlin Clark didn't ask for anybody's protection. Caitlin Clark dished it out, knew she could take it, the whole thing. And what I find, so there is the reaction to the trash talk, which I know you talked about, we've talked to it everywhere. To me, there was, there were obviously an obvious massive racial component to who is and who is not allowed to trash talk. But then there is the what could have been absent of the trash talk, the bigger story, which is the success of this tournament

and can women's basketball at the collegiate level become women's tennis, which is on par, if not at times, exceeded the interest in men's tennis. Because we as a country have shown we will watch women's sports if it up,

it's not an inherent second. Like we won't watch women's sports. What we need is to feel like we're watching the best product possible. And I feel like in tennis, the men's serves became so powerful that there wasn't serve in volley. Plus, then all of a sudden, Serena comes around and you have a massive American starts like a perfect storm. It's like it's a better product.

It's more entertaining all of it. Women's College Basketball is a better product than men's college basketball. flatly because the things you need, which is consistency of roster, continuity, stars are there in the women's college game in a way they're not in the men's game. And I think women's college basketball can have a huge moment here because that LSU team scored 102 points in a regulation college basketball game. San Diego State wasn't going to score 102 last night if they got a third half by themselves. No disrespect to San Diego State, but I guess that's a little disrespect to them.

There is just, it's a hell of a product. The shop making, awesome. And yes, we understand you're not going to get the same level of athleticism. You get for the men's game. We can go to the NBA for that. And I like the attitudes. I like the personalities.

I like the stories. I really, my daughter, my youngest daughter, who's of my two daughters, the bigger sports fan, has asked me, you know, why don't I watch more women's sports? And I've never had like the greatest answer for her. She's nine. And we, I was like, we can go to some WMBA games. But the WMBA versus the NBA, one is just clearly from basketball-wise, a superior product. But the female college games were awesome.

They were, and here's the other part of it. I wonder if with NIL, Colin, if there's not way more money playing in college than going to the WMBA. I wonder if for Caitlin Clark, can she not make more money? Like, whatever her sponsors will be, wouldn't they prefer she be staying in college as long as possible? Because those ratings, they're going to get more viewers, more everything than at the WMBA level. So I think that sport can really have a moment right now. I really do. Yeah.

And I think the men's final four, the women blew out ratings. The men's was one of the least watch because you had underdogs and between the transfer portal and men's college basketball and the one in done culture. You can't name any starters. The average college fan this morning couldn't name two players for San Diego State and they were in the title game. So I, and I do think that doesn't, it doesn't completely puncture the NBA, but mobility. Adam Silver's always been more concerned about it than I would. But I think one of the reasons the Warriors continue to get the best TV ratings and the Celtics are right behind them is because it's the same group of core group of guys for like six years. And that really matters.

That's why Brooklyn had all these stars and terrible ratings. By the way, the Lakers last three years have had terrible ratings because the roster is constantly in flux. Well, and the NBA does need to do a better job, in my opinion, of marketing its next. generation. Steph's 35, LeBron's 38. You know what I mean? Durant's an old 34 because of the injuries. Like, you're going to, you're really living ratings-wise off a group of players who should not still be X. You know, they're very, the fact that LeBron's going on 20 years of super high level play and relevance, that's borrowed time. And now maybe they're going to try to transfer that to Brani, but that's a hell of a bet they're making.

Well, the other thing, what can we take? Sometimes I will see a business out there with the volume we have over 30 employees now, but I'll see a smaller business and I'll say, oh, I like what they're doing. So I think you see this with big companies all the time. They look and see what young ascending companies do. And what can the NBA take from college sports? Well, the quality isn't close, but the urgency is amazing. And if I was Adam Silver, you cannot have seven game first round series.

If you're looking for upsets, which clearly, clearly the urgency and the sudden death nature of college men's basketball, some of these ratings in the early part of this tournament between no-name teams get huge numbers. So I think if you want to pass the baton from the veterans to the kids, you got to have some shorter series where sometimes a young team comes in with Hutzpah and Energy. And upset somebody. Memphis. And upsets a really good team that now we know over time that young team in the NBA won't win for a series. But I do think the NBA playoffs could use more upsets. Or let me give because the counter to that will always be.

how much more, how much benefit are we getting from less inventory of our most valuable time of year, which is postseason games, right? Someone give me an actual answer why, of all sports, the NBA, has not gone to drafting your playoff opponent. You want the regular season to matter. If you are the one seat, if you are Denver, if you have earned. it. Once the field is set, you pick who you play. That would be a massive reward. And if you're the two seed, you get to pick next, as opposed to what we're going to have happen, which is now all of a sudden, you're going to have, I can't, it's going to be unbelievable to watch in these final 120 hours of the season. The Lakers have been fighting like hell to avoid the play in. And now, honest to God, I believe they might on the final day of the season be the sixth seed and risk falling back into the play-in to avoid moving up to the five where they have to play Phoenix.

You know what I mean? You're going to have the Lakers, Warriors, Clippers in like this staring contest of like who wants to play, like, who wants to guarantee they're not in the play in. but if you do that and the other two teams take the night off, you now all of a sudden, congrats you avoid the play. And here's Kevin and Devin Booker in round one. Let these teams draft their playoff opponent. It would, so let me get in the east,

a team that I know you've liked historically, Boston. Boston has been better than Philly. Boston has not over the course of the year been better than Milwaukee, but they did beat them twice by 40 points. You know what Boston's big reward for their season is going to be? Miami in round one. Congratulations, Boston. You know what I mean?

Philly, who's been worse than them, Philly's going to get a shell of a Brooklyn team. And it's like, okay, Mikhail Bridges is a nice player, but that's fine. That's absurd. It's ridiculous. And that would add intrigue, and it would add import to the regular season.

And every first round series would feel like a grudge match because the team would be like, You picked us? Why'd you pick us? Right. Why didn't you pick? So I wish they would do that. I've encouraged that for all across all sports, but nobody, the leagues don't want to do it.

Well, I do think they're going to do a mid-season tournament in the NBA. I think what's happening, analytics, to be honest, do not always help sports. In baseball, it slowed the sport down, right? It was home runs. It was strikeouts. It was like, does anybody hit a single anymore? So they finally got rid of the end. By the way, more singles, more stolen bases, more plays at the plate, more action.

The ratings are up. The games are better. More of everything. But I do think the NBA, the analytics are telling general managers rest your stars because this sport is so taxing. So in baseball, you go into a town and you hang out for four days. And a third of the team doesn't play. They're in the bullpen. But in basketball.

in hockey and especially basketball because you're not on the ice for 45 seconds then off. A player who's abnormally large anyway, right? Like a seven foot one guy who travels going to be harder for him regardless of the plane. So he's going to play 40 minutes, both ends, burn through 7,000 calories, get on a plane, land in a city at 4 in the morning, go to bed quickly, get up, shoot around. Frankly, have you seen old basketball players? they're all bent over. They all look like hell. So the analytics are telling you play stars less.

So even though this minimum number of games for awards sounds like on its face, it will solve it for a veteran player, he's not going to, a veteran guy, by the way, Janus, he doesn't care about awards anymore. He wants to be healthy for the Celtics in the playoffs. I don't know that there's a solve. It is because it's the constant conflict, between the GM and this cross sports,

the GM slash head coach, whose only incentive and obligation is winning. And ownership in the league, who theoretically should, the only incentive should be, we're an entertainment product, how do we maximize our entertainment value? Like, the only thing I could compare it to

is the schedule. I live in New York City. The Broadway schedule is insane. You get Monday, days off, still do seven shows a week. They're two and a half hour shows, right? And a lot of these, there's a show I went to with my, you know, my daughter who's a senior in high school.

She's a theater major to what she wants to go into. Show called Funny Girl, the Fannie Bryce story. The main character, the star of it now is this girl from Glee, who is legitimately phenomenal. And the moment she signed up to do it, tickets through the roof. They, you know, they announced she's not. not doing Thursdays or whatever, but she's doing every other show they do. My guess is, I can't prove this, but she probably would be slightly better if she was only

doing three shows a week. But Broadway understands our entire purpose is entertainment. We're not competing. We are here to entertain the audience, therefore make money. So you are out there every single night. Can you imagine if Broadway had the same type of thing? the NBA. It's like, well, you know, we've looked at it. And she's really only going to be able to peak performance on three days a week. And we're not going to tell the audience any idea what

three days those are going to be until they show up. And you kill them. And so I don't know what does, it is. I don't know what the solve is. The NBA keeps trying to do it, but I don't think Adam Silver has quite a harsh enough hand to force it because he's in a partnership with the players. But this does, go ahead. Because I have a different. question, but go ahead. Well, because I don't think there is a solve and that's okay. NASCAR's audience is old. Every sport has a hole and a problem. NASCAR sport is old. How solvable is it? NFL's got a concussion issue. It's grown men tackling each other. It's not going away. Baseball's got a pace issue and a lack of scarcity. There's a billion games.

That's not going away. Hockey relevance. Gretzky helped a little briefly. College basketball, one and done culture. The truth is, the NBA problem, like every sport, cricket had a pace problem. Soccer, there's just so few elite players that if you get one and you face teams that don't have one, you just dominate for a decade. So I don't feel bad for the NBA because I think you can mitigate some of the issues, but every single. sport has an issue. This is really the primary one for the NBA, stars sitting. You won't completely solve it, but I think like concussions, less hitting in practice, better helmets. It will take out about 30% of it. And for the record, if you give me 30% more stars playing,

it won't be on talk shows. It won't be as big. Because they did it 10 years ago and it was never a topic. That's right. That's 100% correct. All right, I don't know where else you want to go. But when you're talking about college basketball and then resting, guys, it brought me to something that I mentioned on TV today that I want your thoughts on. All right. So everyone saw the Victor Wimbuniamma highlight the 7'5 alien, did a step back three, missed it, went and got his own done, got his own putback done. I also saw a video of the pregame workout he does for his feet.

He does like these foot stretch things to whatever to try to keep his feet healthy. And then I saw this quote from a Western Congress, general manager saying we're all going to feel like idiots for not tanking for this guy. I am quietly very concerned. And my entirety, the entire reason for my concern is literally never have I ever seen someone taller than 7-3 not be ravaged by injuries, ever. Not once. and this guy is going to be playing on the perimeter

on that type of wear and tear. Colin, I don't care how far back we have to go. Ralph Samson, his feet killed him. Rick Smith, Arvita Sabonis, Yau Ming, Sam Bowie. And I don't know if he was seven, that's quite as tall, but Greg Oden, who wasn't quite as tall, Durant even had the Jones fracture,

and now seems to be breaking down a little. Porzingis. Porzingis. All of them. Forget the super tall guys. You met Mnute Bull and some of those guys that dealt with some tragic stuff. Everyone is talking that people are like he would go number one in the draft if LeBron were in it. Guys.

No he wouldn't. The thing is, I get it. If you tell me Wimbunyama is going to be healthy for 15 years. Yeah, he's one of the three greatest prospects ever, maybe the best prospect ever. I don't know. But I have seen, I am so, when chat was coming out, I was like, yeah, the skinniest player I've ever seen. And we got Wilden Brew killed me for it on the show.

I was like, skinny's player I've ever seen. He played one summer league game against LeBron. And we've never, we've never seen him yet since then. Wimby concerns me. Because when you're so tall, your agent is lying about. your height in the other direction, alarm bells go off for me. Because I don't know, man.

I just, what makes him so special is what would terrify me. And here is the reason I was thinking about it. Have the Pelicans helped or hurt Zion? I don't know. I know they've been as cautious as possible. He's played 120 games in four years. maybe you can tell me if they were, you know, more old school with him, he'd be out of the league by now.

A hard time believing it. I think maybe that being so cautious with everything with him has not been the best for him. I can totally see the same thing happening with this kid. He comes into the league, has a little minor thing. They're like, oh, give it six weeks. Like, I don't know. It makes me nervous. It makes me nervous.

Yeah. Yeah. we just recently came to terms with size matters for quarterbacks. I remember pushing back on Kyler Murray and like, guys, he's significantly smaller than Russell Wilson. And anybody's ever been. And I remember very early, an all pro defensive lineman in the NFL who I know played him year one and said, brother, he's not going to be in this league seven years.

He does not like to get hit. He goes, I hit him. He winced. Does that worry you about Bryce? Absolutely, but I have another theory on that. So people were very uncomfortable. I didn't like Baker Mayfield. I said, as a one, he's too small.

He's not that. So we're coming to terms with Drew Breeze was the outlier that size matters and quarterbacks. I said the same thing about Chet Holmgren. I said if I had one pick, I wouldn't take him. But Oklahoma City had so many picks that he's such a physical unicorn. You owe it to yourself to take it. Take the flyer. I'm fine with it. I just, I don't like most or least biggest or smallest anything basically.

Right. Yeah, I like that. And I know I can get burnt on it. But this is, and I'm curious what your theory on Bryce is, because Bryce is clearly the best on film prospect. It's not even arguable. But then I'm like, wait, they're saying he's thinner than Kyler. I don't know if I think he might be undraftable for me. Like he's so small.

So I that it's too small like the biggest or the smallest just concerns me. I want to see someone else do it first. What's your theory on Bryce? Okay. Okay. So my theory is you can't treat every investment like a 401K. So a 401k you put money into and never take it out until you retire. But you can also day trade stocks.

You can buy stuff and sell it. You can flip houses. There's a lot of equities and there's a lot of investments that aren't built for long term. And those are also excellent investments. So not every quarterback you draft is built for 10 years. But if Carolina said to themselves, listen, our doctors say you're going to get three really good years out of him and by year four, he'll deteriorate. to stabilize the organization, wouldn't you still take him?

Oh, that's interesting. Okay, that's interesting. Yep. So what you don't want to be in the NFL is Indianapolis, a wreck. But in that division, in the NFC, Frank Reich's a good coach. You bring him. And by the second year, you draft a quarterback in the sixth round,

the third year, you draft one in the fourth round, the fourth year you draft one in the second. the Patriots every other year drafted a quarterback with Brady. There's an argument to be made you should draft a quarterback every year anyway. But if you believe Bryce is the best quarterback, and if you just got three years, which for any size is small, I mean, I think two is going into year four. Let's say realistically, Kyler gives you two more years and then retires and goes, I'm done. Well, you had Josh Rosen and everybody was getting fired and Kyler got you to the playoffs. And so it's like Chet Holmgren.

If you told me, we're going to get four really good years from him. 40% of the first round of the NBA is a bust. Sure. Go for it. So that's interesting. That if it's just you're looking at it as, and three years, I don't know if I'd spent it just three years, I think that would concern me.

But if you're like, hey, this guy's going to give you his full rookie contract, his fifth year option and one franchise tag, and you're never going to have to give him the massive deal. and you're going to instantly be relevant, have the quarterback on the roof on the cheap deal. That's something I've never really considered that idea, but that I just, and by the way, and maybe he defies the odds,

maybe he is Drew Brise. And, you know, because he is so accurate and seems like such a good kid, it just seems like so small in a big man's game. You mentioned to the Colts and you asked me on the show today about Lamar. Would you, did you, Peter, King said that he believes that the Ravens would just give you Lamar straight up for the fourth pick. Would you do that if you were Indy?

Just a four pick for Lamar Jackson. The number four overall pick, this year's draft, you give them that and you got to give Lamar a deal. Peter King says he thinks the Ravens would say yes to that. They wouldn't try to match. They wouldn't. Fourth overall pick, Lamar straight up. If I'm in the idea, I would have.

Yes, because I think in. the NFC, he would dominate. In the AFC, he'll make you very viable. And I also think that Indies in a situation now, we're at best, they're going to get the third best quarterback, unless somebody leaps them. Correct. In a bad quarterback class, or Lamar Jackson. Or Lamar Jackson. And you can take a deep breath and say, we're off this damn treadmill.

So I think the Lamar conversation has been. So I don't know that any conversation has ever frustrated me more because it seems like, to me, obvious, where he is as a player. He is clearly not a top five quarterback in football, just clearly not. And I understand he won a unanimous MVP. Get it. I understand that some of the folks would be like, here are just his passing stats, not his rushing stats. I'm like, honestly, I can give a shot. shit. I watch the games. I know he's not a great passer. I know he's not. Right.

I know there are, you know, Mahomes, Burrow, Trevor, Herbert, Allen, those five guys are better than him. I understand Justin Herbert doesn't. If Justin Herbert were, it's like, hey, you can have him for two first round picks. Somebody would offer him a contract by now. I know this to be true, right? There's those five guys. Right. I also know that right now, if you're actually ranking quarterbacks going down the list. Dak Prescott's like 10th. And Dak, I think Lamar's better than Dak. You might say Dak's putting in Lamar.

Whatever it is. At worst, Lamar's the 10th best quarterback. So he's not one of the absolute no-brainers. He's still better than 20 starters. So, like, let's all take a deep breath. Teams are so desperate for quarterbacks. You give Daniel Jones 40 million a year for four years. So is he perfect?

No. Is he hurting himself by not having an agent? I think unquestionably, yes. Is it frustrating that he hasn't, passing-wise, he's actually awesome at some of the really hard stuff. It's the layups that he's not great at, has never gotten great at, and it's frustrating, sure. But does it still seem baffling to me that a team like Detroit

isn't like, hmm, we damn near me the playoffs with Jared Gough. We have extra first round picks. We're in the soft conference in a division that next year, the most established quarterback is going to be Kirk Cousins. Yeah, we'll pay Lamar Jackson and maybe go to the Super Bowl,

even though he's not perfect. I do think there's something else. So we both admit his unorthodox Doc's personal representation hurts and that the injuries really hurt. There is a third thing that an executive in the league told me about a year ago is that if you bring him in, you better go find a backup that works for him if he gets hurt. And it's a different offense than your typical offense. So you've got to make some real staff changes.

And if he's a franchise guy, you've got to sign, you've got to bring in a whole new group. And it's almost like in our space. There's people that do play by play. And there's people that are analysts. And then there's guys like you and I that are opinionists and generalists. Well, we don't work doing games or hosting a show, right? You have to bring in people who create topics for you and I. So Lamar is unique and that he's not your classic drop pack, but he's a better thrower than you think.

He does have an injury issue. One of them kind of freaky in the pocket. But he's got such a dynamic style of. which you should absolutely lean into that there is a, okay, if we bring him in an indie, okay, Shane Steichen, what do you have to do to your staff to do this? And so now, I'm not saying there aren't a lot of things you can't do with Lamar, you can do with other quarterbacks, but he is such, listen, I talk to Sean Payton about Russell Wilson when he was not the Broncos coach.

And I said, what would you do? And he said, I'd get him back to playing basketball on grass. He goes, Russell's at his best playing basketball on grass. Well, that's not Drew Breeze. Right. So you're literally bringing staff and people and personnel that work with basketball on grass. So Lamar's that to, I would say, an even hyper version of that. So he's a very, I guess what I'm saying is the downside to unique is that you have to build people to support unique.

Correct. And it's not as easy as conventional. None of it's easy. That's what. do I think the league as a whole doesn't want to do guaranteed deals, obviously? Do I think the owners might be, you know, at the owner's meetings asking around? You're not going to sign. You're not do it guaranteed.

We're not going down there. You know, the Brown screwed us. We're not going further. Sure. So do I think there is that level of collusion if you, sure. But as I said before, if Trevor Lawrence were done with his contract franchise tagged. And for the whole league, it was like Trevor was. like, hey, I want a fully guaranteed deal and it's going to cost two first round picks.

Five of these teams would have said, I don't care who gets mad at me. I'm doing it. So part of the reason there hasn't been a hot Lamar market is because of the things that you're talking about. There are some limitations and it is not simple. But there is still a massive instant upside, particularly for an NFC team where going into next year the best quarterback in the conference, I think Jalen Hertz has earned that, but he's only shown to us for one year. And then after that, it's Kurt and not sorry,

it's Stafford coming off an injury or DAC or whomever. We have no idea. Right. And so that part of it is, it is, and I, my theory on that is, I think most of these teams are waiting until after the draft, because if you're like, if we sign Lamar, we're going to be better. So our pick in the future years will be worse than the pick this year. So might as well use our pick this year. And then the two first round picks we'd have to give up are going to be in the 20s or whatever it is. I also think when I saw the report that the Patriots were shopping Mac Jones, that I'd keep an eye on Belichick.

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