The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts - Fanatics CEO Michael Rubin on Business, Evolving and Ryen Russillo on Cavs/Mitchell Trade, Belichick Doubts

Episode Date: September 3, 2022

This is Prime Cuts! The best of The Colin Cowherd Podcast. First, Fanatics CEO Michael Rubin (3:00) outlines his strategy to take the world’s leading licensed sports merchandiser into gambling and NFT’s, why he got out of his ownership stakes in the Sixers, if he’s ever regretted selling a company, and how he stays on the front end of cultural trends as he gets older. Then (28:00), Ryen Russillo - Host of the Ryen Russillo Podcast - reacts to the trade sending Donovan Mitchell to the Cavs for draft picks and parts, and discusses if Tom and Gisele’s reported marital problems should be a daily sports topic, and what it would take for Belichick to retire. Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates and check out FanDuel for the best wagering and daily fantasy action! #herdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast.

For 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

84 was a wild year. It was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. The volume.

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You know, one of the things when I looked over your bio, and it probably speaks to a lot of who you are, because lots of people drop out of college, and they're called people who struggle with math. You dropped out of college very quickly. So I think it takes, you know, Bill Gates did. It takes a certain amount of independence and courage to do that. I couldn't have done that. I didn't have enough confidence. If you could, Michael, go back that week or that moment, and I don't know if it was an epiphany,

but did something frustrate you? Were there caps? Did you feel like you were being boxed in? You know, for me, I was always a terrible. student. I was always an awful athlete, but I was good at one thing. I always loved to work. And any variation of business was like what I loved to do is. Right. That was the way I competed. And so I actually only went to college because I made a commitment to my mom and dad after I nearly went bankrupt a couple times in high school. Right. And my dad helped me once and said, look,

I'll do this, but you have to go to college. So I went to college. The problem was by the time I got there, I was, you know, doing so well buying some closeouts. Like, yeah, this isn't for me. So, you know, I'm going to give them the money back. I'm going to go full-time in business. So you've expanded into spaces that some are obvious, like from the sports apparel, you move. And then you recently said sports gambling. And I thought, all right, how is he going to, you know, synchronize all these? So take me to the thought, because a lot of your apparel stuff, you know, like lids, like in different, you know, I've watched Amazon grow. Like, I get it. When they went in. into the Washington Post. I was like, that's kind of a left turn, isn't it? Now I get their strategy.

So you go into gaming. How does it fit? Yeah, so I really think about what's a sports fan want. I think you really think about everything through the lens of your customer, the sports fan, what's in their best interest. I think there's really not another company today who's working to build a really an end-to-ended digital sports platform. So you as a fan want to go to a place, you know, can you one day watch live games? Can you bet on the games as you're watching the games. Can you, you know, buy the jersey of the hat of the player you like? Can you get a collectible from that, you know, whether it's a trading card, physical, digital and empty? You know, do you want to get a ticket for an upcoming game? So we really want to give the sports fan

everything they want digitally in one place. I think that's a massive opportunity. We spent really the last 10 years building, I'd say, a really good experience for the sports fan with merchandise. And we woke up, we said, wait a second, we have close to 100 million sports fans. And they do a lot of other things digitally. How about if we could give them everything in one place. And that's really the desire we have is to give the sports fan the ultimate digital sports experience for everything they want in one place. There's a lot, I mean, it's not legal to bet sports yet in California. That would obviously, and there's political reasons. And, you know, some conservative states may not lean into it. California's more left-leaning,

but there's some politics behind it. So when you look at sports gaming, what inning timing is so vital in all this stuff? What inning are we in, in your opinion? Very early. I think, we're in the second or third inning of sports gambling. What does it look like to you? Because in Europe, half time, in stadium stuff, my mom, European, I've always kind of You've grown up with it. Yeah. Well, I just.

It's in the culture. And the culture is you can drink with your parents at dinner. My mom wasn't really beholden to some of these sort of more rigid sort of, you know, cultural American realities. So I look at gambling in a stadium and I'm like, well, they're doing it in England forever and those fans are crazy. I mean, they call them soccer hooligans. Our fans actually, by and large, the nature of our fans, the behavior is pretty good if you look globally. So do you think it's going to be that easy and accessible for fans in five years, 10 years?

I think, you know, I think very long term. I feel like, even though I'm getting old, I feel like a young guy, my lens is, what's a fan want 10 years from now, 20 years from now, 30 years from now? I think 10 years from now, sports gambling is completely mainstream in most people. places in North America. I think the experience will also be too muchably better. I think that's a great thing. And so for us, we don't worry about how things start. We worry about how they finish. And this is, you know, this is a marathon. It's not a sprint. And we're going to make sure to create the best product for sports fans, the best experience. And we have, you know, huge strategic advantages. Today, we have more than 100 million fans that go to Fanatics, you know, every year. And to be able to take that 100

million fans and not only service them with all their merchandise needs and all of their collectible needs, but also with their sports gaming needs, is a big opportunity for us, and one that I think we can service the fan better, do things better for them, and at the same time, have a better business model. So you owned a couple of sports franchises. You moved out of that space. My guess was for the gaming purposes, am I right? Yeah, it just got, look, it got too complicated.

Like, for me, when I, you know, we bought the Sixers together in 2011, I was the third largest shareholder of the team. It was a great experience. I was pretty involved in the last several years. I think as Fanatics start getting much bigger, we were a $250 million company the year that I bought into The Sixers together with Josh Harrison, David Plitzer, who you were kind of the managing partners.

This year will be more than $7 billion in revenue. And just based on us now being in the collectibles business in a big way where we have deals with thousands of individual athletes, with us starting to take bets on the Sixers by the end of this year, neither one of those businesses really worked with being an owner of sports. And it was great when it wasn't a conflict and when I saw that it was holding back fanatics, it was immediately an easy decision for me to reach. People, I'm sure your cash fluid, a lot of people would like to buy fanatics.

And you've held off on that. Are there almost DNA reasons? Are there independent reasons? People that don't sell are often people that want control, don't want to answer to people. the people. Why haven't you? Because you would be in this sports now is worth the global money, Michael goes. I mean, somebody once said to me, you know the Red Sox will be there in a hundred years. Liverpool. You don't know if a tech company is going to exist. Why haven't you? Yeah, for me, it really gets down to one thing. We're just getting started. Like, even though we've

gone from a $250 million business to, you know, I think next year we could be approaching potentially $10 billion in revenue. We're just starting. Like, this is, you know, you asked me what inning was sports gambling in? I'd say fanatics is, you know, we're in the first quarter of the game. I think we have so much potential ahead for us. There's so much to improve how sports fans are kind of serviced by us. You know, there's so many things we're doing. We're, you know, we're cutting the speed of deliveries in half in our merchandise business.

We're doing so many things to improve the collectibles business. We're going to market the category for the first time. In gambling, I think we're going to create a great experience for fans. So for me, it's not like there's a little bit of unfinished business. There's so much to do. And that's a blast. Like, I'm so lucky. And I think our 10,000 plus associates, we're all fortunate to work in such a vibrant industry.

Sports is a great industry, as you said, it's a global business. It brings communities together. And why would I want to kind of sell out when I'm, you know, in the beginning of the game? When you buy a company, you do your due diligence. Yeah. But there's probably, there's a secret to every industry. Yeah. Or you buy it and six months later, you're like, wow, collectibles.

Yeah. What was the first moment when you were in the business and you went, well, that goes against my instincts? I'm surprised this is the business. Yeah. I'd say in the collectibles business, there are a couple things where they just defy gravity and don't make sense to me. The first is, you know, tops, pinini, upper deck, all really good companies, all own

run by good people. You know, we bought tops earlier this year. But, like, I heard from so many customers about redemptions. Like, we hate when we get a redemption. You buy a box of cards and you get a redemption because, you know, it was too difficult to get the autograph on the card at the time they made it. And so I think the industry had worked that way.

We're not looking at this saying, you know what, that's not acceptable. Like, you know what? So many collectors, they hate it. It's a practice that are like. So we're saying, like, how do we eliminate it? And it's just like the mentality of, like, we need to do better. You know, another example would be marketing.

You know, the industry today spends less than 1% of revenue in marketing. Like, there's so much we can do to bring. I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a commercial for it. And by the way, whether it's a commercial or whether it's more grassroots marketing, there's so little done to promote the collectibles industry, but it's grown and grown and grown. So like I look and say, there's so much opportunity to innovate the product. There's so much opportunity to market the product. There's so much opportunity to take better care of collectors.

and yet the business has done great. So for me, it's like, if this business is doing this well, treating customers this way, you know, without innovating, without, you know, marketing the products, like the sky's the limit for what we can do. So, like, in a lot of ways, I feel like the business has done really well, you know, in spite of not being like, the companies have woke it up and said, like,

we're going to be like, you know, Nike is a product of marketing company that, you know, I think we all look in respect. You know, I think we can take that same mentality into the collectibles industry and is a massive opportunity. It's interesting. Do you... You know, Starbucks didn't do any advertising forever.

It was just sort of, we do coffee or coffee shops or advertising. So as you touch on that, is there a company that you look at and you say to yourself, because there's different ways to do it, is there a company that to you, Michael, you ever look at and go, they are really clever? Yeah, well, first of all, I study everything. Like, I'm a sponge. Like, I barely made out of high school. We just said, I went to college for about six weeks.

I'm actually, people, probably people, someone said to me last night, do you speak in any other languages? I'm like, I barely speak English. Okay. But you know what? I have a little bit of common sense. And so like, I'm a spun. So I'm always looking at like, what's Amazon doing?

You know, how are they pushing the envelope from a customer experience perspective? What's Netflix doing? What's Apple doing? What's Google doing? What's Nike doing? Like, you got to look at great companies and like get ideas. Like, I mean, you don't need to be the first, create something. What you need to do is figure out, you know, what I have is, you know, what I have is, you know,

We work with the best sports properties at the world, closer to 1,000 collegiate and professional sports properties globally. And we have this incredible IP that we're fortunate up to work with to be able to service sports fans with. But we got to do it better every day. Like we need to go into this with the mentality. Like what we're doing today, it's not near good enough. How do we get better?

How do we do everything that we do a lot better for the sports fan? And so there's lots to do. When you buy, you create or you bought fanatics, we really start, really what happened was we had, we operated five leagues, e-commerce businesses, and my old company at GSI. And then we bought Fanatics and kind of changed the name of the company in 2011. Take me back to the beginning of it.

Was there an epiphany is probably the wrong word, but was there a moment when you said to yourself, wow, this is untapped? Like when I read your story, I thought, man, I can't believe there weren't thousands of business people going after this. Did you think to yourself, man, this business, people, there's not. don't understand. No, I had the opposite reaction. If I'm going to be honest, in 2011, when I, you know, sold GSI Commerce, which is my first company, in eBay, and then they said, hey, we don't want to be in the owned inventory business. We bought Fennonax back for them. I actually said, you know what?

I just watched two little companies, one in Seattle called Amazon, another in China called Alibaba, that have been literally decimating retail. I said, if I don't completely reinvent this business, we won't be here. We'll be irrelevant. So I actually had the kind of like the fear of death. By the way, the fear of death is a great motivator to make you figure out how to make things work. Right. So we did exactly that. We said, you know, how are we going to make sure we have the best assortment?

How are we going to make sure that we give the best experience to fans? How are we going to make sure we do things that other people can't do? How are we going to make sure that we just keep innovating to a way that, you know, unlike most other retail categories that have been, look, Amazon and Ali Pava, two of the best companies in the world. Okay? And they do it because they're doing things for their customers that others can't do. We took the same mentality and said, look, if we get laser-focused in sports, that's a massive opportunity because this is a complicated business. It's skewery-intests.

We can have more than a million products today. When you focus on one thing, you can do it really well. And again, the great thing is 10 years into it. I think we're just getting started. NFL kickoff is still a couple of weeks away, but you can get in on the action now on the Fandall Sportsbook with their NFL Super Win bonus. Right now, anybody who places at least a $50 Super Bowl winning bet

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gambling problem, 1-800 next step or text next step to 5334-2 Arizona, 1-88-7-8-9-7-7-7-7. Or visit c-ccccgobblog slash chat. Connecticut, 1-800-G or visit Fandul dot com slash RG and Colorado, Indiana, Jersey and Virginia. 18777-7-7-0-N-1-7 for confidential help in Michigan. 1877-H-O-P-E-N-Y, or text H-O-P-E-N-Y-4-6-6-9 in New York, Tennessee. Redline, 1-800-89-9-7-8-9 Tennessee. Visit 1-800-Gambler.net in West Virginia. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential.

Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform, became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations

with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations,

stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and

at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. So. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many. incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the

thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines,

is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the hard way and listen now. What crushes you more? A bad earnings reported fanatics

or a playoff elimination game in the NBA? Which one do you not? That's a great question. Um, both are crushing. I mean, I don't like, I don't like to lose. But the good thing with me, you lose all the time when you lose, I pick up and I'm like, that was yesterday's news, let's go. You know, I'm not looking back.

I'm only saying, how do we get better? How do we go for it? But I've had, I've had many of both. So fanatics is B to C. It's a business to consumer business. Okay. And we don't want to do anything. We say, people call us all the time and say, hey, do you want to buy this business?

This is a B2 business. No, we are a business to consumer digital company. If it's not digital, if it's not consumer, we have no interest. All right. Gaming is business to consumer. Yeah. Why does that attract you? Why does B2C attract you?

Yeah, you know, for me, it's really about being able to service the digital sports fan wherever they want to be serviced. Eurofan. Yeah. For me, I've got to tell you, when I think about fanatics in the future and I could potentially watch live sports, bet on them, get the jersey from the player I like, get the training card to the digital NFT, get a tech. get a ticket to an event all in one place.

That's like an incredible experience. So for me, what we have is one brand and one fan base. That we can do so many different things digitally with them. But the most important thing we need to do every day is say, how do we do it better? It's not good enough what we're doing. How do we improve? How do we innovate? Because, you know, I still say like, yeah, we've made a lot of progress.

And, you know, $250 million last year, I think we could be, you know, approaching $10 million next year. It's not, you know, it's not good enough. What keeps you up at night? I'm the worst sleep in the planet. I said to my girlfriend this morning, like, I literally need a sleep doctor. Like, I could sleep three hours and then I wake up. And no matter how many times I say, don't look at your phone, I look at my phone, I start responding to text messages, responding to emails, then I look at news, what's going on in this world?

You can obviously tell my pretty competitive human being. I like to win. I don't really believe in losing, even though it happens to the best of us. So, you know, for me, what keeps me up at night is we're growing quick, not having the wheels come off the bus, not doing, you know, dumb things, self-infest, conflicted things. You know, I want to make sure we're making the big decisions. Look, we're going to fail. You have lots of failures. Every day in a couple of you fail. I want to fail fast. Like, you know, for me, if I'm going to fail, let's do it fast and move on. Let's not have a slow pain for failure.

Let's do it fast and get it out of the way. One of the vagaries or one of the problems with being rich and powerful is that people are often afraid to confront you or disagree with you. How do you ensure that when you walk into a room, your lieutenants are willing to say, Michael, I think you're completely wrong on this. Yeah. So first of all, I love that. And I create that culture. That's a bad leader who doesn't, you know, create the relationships with their leaders

where they know they have to come and say, like, people come and say, this is the dumbest idea I've ever heard. Like, I'll come up and say, I got a great idea. And if any of my trust people who know me to work with me, if they can't sit by me, if someone was a yes man, they're out. Like, I have no interest. You talk about somebody. I have no interest in working with is yes people.

I want people going to make us better, challenge us. And every day, you know, we debate stuff. That's like, that's our life. Whether, you know, bantering with my friends, bantering with executives, that's who I am. It's also my personality pretty, you know, I'm like pretty, you know, down to earth relative to, you know, guys build a decent size business. Yeah. So the best ideas I get are being in groups of people and listening and kind of sponging it.

Where do your best ideas come from? We must be like kind of spirit because I would have given you exactly the same answer. I would have told you it's from getting really smart people who have done. different backgrounds around me and then being a sponge. And I'll contribute and we can all learn from each other. So people say to me all the way, like, someone just said to me last night, like, you seem comfortable anyway. I'm like, I could go in the roughest neighborhood in the world and enjoy talking to people

and asking questions and learning. By the way, watching what the wear and what fashion trends are developing, you know, what do they want? What do they need? How can I help them? How can they help me to being, you know, with any type of sports fan? Like, that's how I learn. Like, I'm a sponge.

That's literally, I said, if you watch anything I've ever said, I'm a sponge. My first impression when you walked in is you dress like a young fan and you're 50. And so that's impressive to me because I believe in your business. You have to relate to these guys. Yeah. Okay, not me as much, right? So you dress as a billionaire, you dress like a fan. I don't know if you ever thought about that.

You are in young businesses. You know, 75-year-old guys don't wear as many baseball hats. You go to a Mets game. Everybody's got one on. So do you force yourself tech, music, people? How do you stay young and twitchy with culture? Because the world we're living now. It's so fluid, Michael.

Like, every 15 minutes, there's new tech. Yeah, so first of all, I think you need to be authentic to yourself. Like, I dress the way I want. And by the way, when someone will say, hey, you have to wear this to this, I'm just like, I am who I am. Right. I don't give a shit. And, you know, if someone doesn't like me,

You know what? You got to be authentic. You got to be who you are. The biggest thing I like, I do love having all different backgrounds around me because that gives us the opportunity to learn from different people and take different perspectives. But look, I have a young mentality. Like, I don't like, I generally will say, as a stereotype, and I'll probably feel bad saying this,

I don't like being around old people in general because it makes me feel old versus I like to be around young people that I can learn from, grow from. I won't go to Palm Springs because of that. Yeah. I feel old. Park City people ski. And everybody in LA loves Palm Springs. And I'm like, I don't play bridge.

It's old people. I go once a year for Coachella. Well, that's the young. That's right. Nobody in their 80s there. No, I think that's a real thing. I could have been the oldest person in Coachella. Finally, I remember interviewing Phil Knight one time and I asked this question,

and my producers like that is such a pithy, silly question. But when you can have anything, you know, the old saying, oh, what do you get somebody that has everything? You could have any piece of sports memorabilia you've wanted. I'm not a sports memorabilia. a collector. I don't have a press pass I've ever had. But is there anything? Like if somebody told me what could I have? I say, give me Muhammad Ali's gloves against Foreman and Zaire. That to me was one of the first moments as a kid. I was watching a JP Patch's morning show. This is a product that I don't have. This is something you don't have. It's my first memory of me knowing sports is a cartoon

on a Saturday morning breaking in and said, Muhammad Ali's beat George Foreman. This is a cartoon show in Seattle. And to me, it was the first moment. I was a huge Ali fan. It was the first sports moment. I was like, well, I'm really into this. I did a book cover mimicking a Muhammad Ali shoot. So that to me would be the sports thing.

Do you have one? That I want that I don't have. You don't have. Yes. What is it? This is so easy. What do you think I want that? Okay, let me guess.

Dr. J's, the uniform when he did the dunk over Michael Cooper. Or the, that's a good guess, but you're off by about 30 or 40 years. I want a 2022, 2023, Sixthers Championship ring. Those are hard to get. You know, that's why I want it. Because you know, I want the shit that's hard to get because that's what makes it interesting. You can't even find that on eBay. It's not currently available on the market. You know what? But you ask me what I want. That's what I want. I've been trying to get my buddy Ryan Rosillo on forever. He's busy. He's got a podcast. And so we have him scheduled for today. And the Donovan Mitchell stray breaks. And I,

I know exactly what Rochello's thinking. Coward, I'm not giving you my best shit. So don't expect a lot for me. So I thought to myself, sometimes you get lucky. So I know you have stuff to do. But I'm going to throw my takeaway on this at you and you just shoot it down. Is that I understand there's value in who won the trade. But if I think you're a pretty good team, Cleveland, and you got the best player Cleveland, it falls into the, I don't really care who won the trade because I can't wait to watch the Cavs. Because I thought last year I'm like, shit, they're a player in a year away. So I don't know who won the trade, but it does feel like Mitchell is kind of what they need. Do you see it that way? He's exactly what they need, Colin. I mean, this is a Cavs team I like watching last year. I love

Darius coming out of the draft, it was a little hard because, you know, he was a little, he was smaller. He didn't have a ton of playing time. I mean, honestly, like, when you look back to Kyrie's Duke year, you know, he barely played, and then you just realized what a special talent he was. And I'm not saying Darius is Kyrie, in a way, I hope he isn't. But there were some similarities there. And it's really apparent that, you know, he's a special guard.

And Cleveland, I think in a weird way, it was like, hey, if Sexton's is going to be out, you know, you can kind of give the keys to Darius and go. So then on top of that, you get Allen, you got Mowgli, so they're doing something a little bit more traditional. So my point is this, is all the Kaz games that I watched. And I watched a lot of them because I just liked the young players. Their shot creation all fell on Garland at the end of games. It was a joke. And if you go to fourth quarter offensive efficiency, where last year they were 19th in the NBA.

I think in their clutch time, it was even worse. It was so apparent that Garland was just supposed to let to dribble and create it all on its own. They bring it Caris Lavert to try to ease that a little bit. And everybody likes Caris Lavert until they get it. him on their team. They're like, oh, okay. This guy's playing his own game here. So if you factor in that yes, you won the trade because you got the best player, which is what a GM told me and I first started covering the league 20 years ago. He goes, you know, more often than night, look at the history. When you get the best player, he end up winning the trade. I'm not saying

they're going to win the East, but they solved a massive problem because when it comes to shot creation, and we can get in all the Mitchell, who is he overrated and underrated and all that stuff. He is a fantastic shock creator. So it is a huge, look, it's the player. He was available. to package all that stuff. But for what they needed, they needed somebody else that was another threat with a ball in his hands

and as a shooter. And that's exactly what Mitchell is. You know, there's been a theory for years in all sports, certainly the Packers, that Midwest teams have to overpay in trades or free agency to get players. I don't know if that's true.

But I will say this, is that here's, and I go to a couple of jazz games a year. I like Danny Aange. I like what they're doing. It's a one-horse town. so they'll be patient, right? They'll sit it out and be patient.

And they've had a lot of success. They've always been fairly viable. But here's the thing I don't love about these total rebuilds. So even Janus, I think the best player in the league, it took about until year four where you were like, whoa, whoa, he's getting to a top five player, right? So, you know, just throw LeBron out of it. Most of these guys come out now, these draft picks, they're 19. Forget physically ready. They're just not emotionally ready.

So when you do these rebuilds, Ryan, what I don't like about it, you're asking your fans, even if we hit on the draft picks, it's three years after that until you can really go into the playoffs and be viable. Now, you can obviously add pieces, but Danny Aange tends to be, I want to win the trade, or I'm not making the trade. And again, Utah is not a big free agent destination. So I understand his plan, Ryan. But, man, I think what you charge fans today, it's a hard sell. And I, you're really good at this personnel in the NBA drafting stuff.

I always trust your opinions. But shit, man, it's hard. I got one year a college tape with an overbearing college coach. It feels like there's more misses than ever out of the draft. Yeah, if you start looking at the top 10 in recent drafts, too, it's remarkable how many of those top 10 players are on a new team by year two or three. It's more than 50% of the top team. Like, I used to think the later picks in the first round were totally overvalued.

And I did talk to a GM who heard me say it like five years ago where I just started looking at it. And I'm like, you know, you trade your guy for like a 20 and a 27. And then it's really exciting. Like, oh, we have three first rounders. If you get a rotation guy in the 20s, you crushed it. Okay. And as I started, no, everybody wants to go like, well, what about Dream? on green and manage it.

You're like, yeah, man, awesome. Like, when Hinky would stockpile all these second rounders and everybody would, like, act like it meant anything, it didn't mean anything. The second rounders would even worse. So when I started talking about the overvaluing the first round picks, I had a GM who was pretty smart, who was like, you know, I don't always agree with you,

but because I heard what you said about the first rounders, he goes, that's how we've been running our business now for a couple years. Like, I don't care. We're a pretty good team. We're generally always a pretty good team. We're a destination. We feel like we're always in play for some guys.

And, like, why would, why do I care about, like pick 22. Like maybe I hit it and it's a cheap rotation guy, but chances are, it's like less than a 50% win. So I'll give you a bunch of those. And so the weird thing is now that we've seen all these trades happen, I think a lot of GMs have decided, yeah, I don't care about these picks either. Like, let's go. Like when you think about the Kauai trade from San Antonio to Toronto and you're like, all right, so you got to Rosen, who actually is, you know, it's a weird, he's an odd player and that he's gotten so much better so much later in his career. He's like in total aberration. Right. And then you throw in

hurdle who, you know, I sneakie still kind of like a little bit. But if that trade were done today, even with the one year left on Kauai's deal, knowing that Toronto's probably not a free agent destination, there's at least a couple of first, a couple unprotected first thrown into that. And that's just not, that's how quickly this has changed. But part of me also wonders at times, it's like, do you guys actually want a player back that's any good? Or do you just want to be able to say, oh, I have all of these draft picks? Now, for certain places who are worried about resigning their own guys, then it makes sense. You're right. Utah's probably a bottom three free agent destination.

So I'm not even a huge fan of stockpiling all his cap space because, and I know Ageny, he's told me straight up years ago when I was in Boston. He goes, you know, this whole, all you guys in the media stockpiling this cap space, he's like, that means I'm waiting around with a plan with no idea of who I'm getting. So he was like, I'm always more into the trades. So the first round movement of the last couple of years is definitely a product of GM's realizing these picks aren't that valuable. But I think it's in a weird way on the other side of the receiving team.

they value the ability to say, oh, we have five picks now moving forward. And I'm like, you know, at some point I want a nice player. So if the Schaam's report was correct that the Knicks offered R.J. Barrett and two unprotected firsts, if that's correct, and Shams is better at the stuff than I am, I would take that deal 10 out of 10 times over the Cleveland package because all of these players like, Markman's kind of a disappointment. Sexton, Cleveland didn't want to pay them. And now you pay them. And it's not a ton of money and it's fine. and then, you know, Abaji, who, you know, might be a marginal rotation player.

You know, who knows. All right. Well, move off that. I want to save your gems. That's all right. Although you were very good there. No, I was going to give you the good stuff. I wasn't, that was the old college game day thing.

Like, every now we'd get somebody to come over in the show and then I'd say, like, well, what are you hot on? And the guy would be like, well, we're not supposed to use our best stuff. I'm like, so I booked you. That is funny. So let's just pivot to. the shirt you're wearing, which those things sell on eBay, they're like NFTs now. You can just gobble them up. This is my retirement plan.

So I want to touch on the Brady-Jazel thing because the story came out that, and it was pretty predictable. But I said in my preamble before you, like, there are certain things. Like, I kind of know and I don't want to talk about. So the Boston gossip columnist had been on this Giselle Tom fighting shit for a couple of years. and I talked to somebody who kind of plays in that circle and he's like, yeah, I mean, he made promises and he backed out of the promises and she's pissed off. And it's weird, Ryan, because I'm not a storybreaker. Like Shams does that better than us.

You're very good at it. But like there are stories I don't really want to talk about. And I really don't want to talk about Tom and Giselle because marriage is hard and mine's good. and it's not easy. And I think to myself, what if Brady caught me talking about it? Now, that may be delusional. But he used me in some documentary piece, right?

And I'm like, so he's heard of me. What if he's dancing around the TV and I'm talking about Tom Brady's marriage? And I'm like, it'd be fucking embarrassing if in 10 years I ran into him in a golf tournament. Am I being weird? I just don't want to talk about his marriage. I think you're being a little weird. Like, I don't, I wouldn't say, hey, you're wrong.

You know, that should be your open three days this. week. If I were your producer, I wouldn't be like your to. Because I had heard about it too. But I go, you know, I'm not, I'm not really interested in that part of it. I mean, if I had to do a segment on it, I would say, oh, you're mad, you're married to the best quarterback of all time. And he's the most competitive person maybe ever.

And he's decided, hey, I'm still really good at this. And I want to keep playing when the, when this season's like five months. So again, that's me maybe being a guy. I'm like, hey, you could date somebody in sales, you know? So, but again, I don't know that I would do that. Maybe I just did a little bit. I, you know, we're at a weird, we're at a weird, this is this actually really interesting because I think we're at a weird like intersection of like, should we have more sympathy now?

Because there's, there's more awareness. There's more sympathy with public figures in sports. You know, I was talking to somebody about one. of the tennis stories the other day. And, you know, I was kind of like, yeah, I mean, this is consumed differently. If you say publicly, hey, I'm struggling with these things. I'm sure, you buy criticism everywhere, but there seems to be less of it of the public people, of in the media. There's, there's more sympathy towards. And I think a byproduct of that is, as long as this is simply a family story, it doesn't impact the football at all, I think all of us would have real hesitation

to be like, how would I build, what do I build the topic? Like, what's the topic? How am I doing this where the listener's like, oh, cool, here's a different take or a new spin on this. So I think a lot of us would still love to operate with some respect to a family thing, but sometimes it's just, it's in a lane that we have to address it. I don't know. You know, I was watching them in preseason. So who would they play on the other? I went on vacation.

So it was right before I went on vacation. He played a couple series. You know a vacation a lot recently. Yeah. Yeah, a lot. Rhode Island. Shit. People aren't happy where I work.

So, but I watched him on a couple of times. couple series. And I'm, and I'm just sitting there casually watching it with a cocktail. I'm like, shit, man, he is freaking good. Yeah. Like, I mean, seriously, crisp, accurate. I mean, like, the pop on his arm? It's sick. Ryan, I'm watching all these second people are freaking out. Ooh, look at what Brock Purdy can do. And I'm like, Brock Purdy, you can fit him into his back pocket. He's tiny. And I'm watching Brady. I'm like, sick. 65, big arm, accurate pre-snap weapons. Like, I get it.

Listen, I don't want to be one of these guys, like with an eight, the first number of my age. I will not be on the air. But dude, if I was 69 and I'm still like having a ball and I'm doing this and we're laughing, then I'm going to keep doing it. And Anne's going to go, hey, what about me? And I'm going to say, you know, it's not a terrible life. We've created a great life. I'm just not available on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

I'm talking to Ryan Rosillo. You know, it's like I watched that preseason game and I'm like, shit, man, he's still great, right? Totally with you. And, you know, any of us that have been lucky enough to have friends in play sports, you know, one of the biggest things is they all want to keep your power to play as long as they possibly can. And it's funny, too. It's like, this is the same thing. It happens in our industry, but I do think it happens in life.

But when you're young, this sounds very simplistic, but the part of being young is not knowing any better. So when you're a young athlete, you're like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to be one of those guys. And it's like, you have no idea where your head is going to be at at 35. One of our college roommates told the story. He had a thing going on, super rough night out. And he did something. His wife got really mad at him.

And we were like, when we were in college, did we ever think that you'd be 47 having that kind of night out? And he was like, no. He goes by every now and then, you know, it's going to happen, you know, because I still like to have a good time. And when people talk about our industry, he's like, yeah, I don't want to be that guy who's over 50. Like when you're 28, you think 50 is so old. And I think the same thing has happened here for Brady.

Like, I never thought he'd be able to do this. He changes everything the way I have to think about athletes playing that a little bit older. Now, I think his liability is part of it. I think the fact that he found a way to play this extremely dangerous position by constantly getting rid of the football and not taking those kill shots. You know, he's just the lack of the accumulation of effect of being hit like that. It makes me kind of change. Like, how open of the mind do I have to be have about like who LeBron can be moving forward?

But it's really easy to assume that you know how you're going to think when you're 20 years older. But the thing is, is you're usually always wrong. And most of us when we're in that, when we are older, we don't go, oh, wait. I feel the exact same way now. Like, it sucks to do nothing. I don't want to do nothing at any point in my life. Dude, I sleep seven hours a day. I'm at work for six.

Six to noon. That's 13 hours. I have 11 left. I nap for 40 minutes. I work out for about 50. Every other day I do a podcast. I'm sitting around every day thinking, I want to go to the YouTube channel.

That's what my kids do. Like at some point, Brady's like, retire to what? I got kids by 13, 14, Ryan, they don't want to hang out with you all day. They just don't. Like, I get it. All right, let's pivot to something that you were on years ago. So we both, I think we're both, like a lot of times in the media, a guy's an NFL guy or he's a college guy. And you were somebody very early.

Van Pelt was too. Like, we loved college and we loved the NFL. And we grew up in NFL cities. But there's something really addictive about the college game. I can't wait until Saturday. I'm freaking just all fired up for it. And I mean, I sat and watched the entire Nebraska Northwestern game in a bar, Church Street Tavern in Burlington, Vermont. I had a goddamn ball.

How great is that town? Oh, so much fun. I called Rissillo, everybody, by the way. No, first I sent a picture because Rist. Shillow never calls me back. And I sent a picture. He calls me in 30 seconds. And I'm like, he always could call me back.

I had to entice him. It was like bait. And then you called and you're like, what are you doing there? And I'm like, this is unbelievable. I'd never been there. So the point being is, I sat there the whole day and I had three and a half hours. I was just sitting there eating chicken wings, drinking beer, talking to people. I'm like, oh, my God, I love college football.

So we like the draft because it's this conversion of both. The other day, Bill Barnwell, I think it is, had this graph. on how awful Patriots draft. And it was just brutal. And you were on this 10 years ago. We talked about this at Bristol. We were like, why won't anybody talk about it? This past draft, so I have a theory that he got ripped.

Not this draft, the previous draft, he let the scouts have it again. And they had a really good draft. And then he said, screw it. I want control back. And he had control of this draft. And it was horrible. I do believe, and this sounds insane. But I do think Robert Kraft, if they're bad and boring, he owns the business.

I don't think it's freaking crazy at the end of the season if he talks about, hey, why don't you, why don't you retire? Am I nuts? It sounds crazy. But Robert Kraft is cut throat. I know people who have negotiated with him for the NFL. You're not going to sit there and watch a 7 and 10 team that's boring for consumers. They would have to be bad multiple years before that conversation would happen. I mean, we're still talking about despite the draft record, which is abysmal.

I mean, I don't know. Sometimes I'm always shocked like whenever I bring it up and then you'll have like a Pats fan being like, what about Sunni Michelle in the playoffs? You're like, seriously, that's your grading curve. Like a guy had a nice little run as a first round pick over a couple of playoff games. But I don't know. They probably like JD Drew signing too. So when I look at the Belichick GM part of it, like no other GM would ever keep his job.

But the problem is you're talking about somebody who's maybe the greatest coach of all time. And as somebody that was in Boston during the times you're like, what's Belichick doing? And he was always right. Like I remember the first time doing local radio there. They get rid of lawyer, Malloy, the bills smoke them, spend the entire week being like this locker was probably turning on. I'm saying all the bullshit that we say and we don't know anything. And you just assume. And Belichick was right.

You know, later on it was Adventitarian. Like, how do you let this guy go? And even though Hiddari still had a nice run, but he was inside. He decided, you know, I'm going to go with Gascowski, and it was completely right. Like, he's done so many things right. The Brady one, though, never made any sense to me. Even if he thought he was regressing a little bit, and maybe, as we said earlier, you know, back then we still were like, wait, Brady's going to play on all 45. But 31 other cities keep Tom Brady around with that resume.

31 other, well, I should say franchises and not cities. They all keep them. And Belichick's the one guy who you kind of knew, like, Do you like to kind of prove some point sometimes? Do you like to maybe, you know, it's one thing when you grab a wrestler to play offensive guard to say like, hey, look how smart I am. And sometimes it works. And I think he likes to get cute about some of the stuff.

So the draft record is terrible. He was asked about it. Was it last season? And he was like, or maybe before the draft this year, they were like, you know, how would you respond? And everybody's so afraid of the guy. And he was like, oh, yeah, we had some pretty good picks in there too. And it was like, oh, wow, listen to you.

Like, hey, man, the draft record is what it is. You're bad at it. You've been really. bad at it for a long time. So I don't know what the dynamic is between the scouts and everything else. I think he always likes to do things a little bit differently. The offensive coordinator mystery of like, is Matt Patricia really going to be the guy calling plays now? Like, you can't, you can't bring in somebody else. But he ends up being right so often that he's a really tough guy to question, even if again, is the draft resume is that bad. So I'm not with you

yet because as much as the Kraft-Bilich thing, like I don't think they're sumering together. this guy has put together two decades that are unmatched. You know, the number of division titles, Super Bowl appearances. He has a resume that is unmatched by every single person that's had that job in the history of this league. So I think it takes more than one in seven, ten season that's a little disappointing for them to start having those. But here's the. So years ago, it was called the Patriot Way. Oh, yeah.

And the Patriot Way could be defined basically by it's not about you. It's about us. Yeah. whatever it takes to win. Right. Team first, whatever it takes to win. Brady takes pay cuts. And then Belichick three years ago, according to Urban Meyer, and Urban, like put Bill's

name on it, so I imagine it was accurate. Urban Meyer says like three, four years ago. You know, I'm talking to Bill. And Bill said, you know, at this point in my career, I'm just going to coach guys I want to coach. And I thought, whoa, that's about you, not the team. And that isn't whatever it takes to win. And I thought, that's something that Ryan that I think about all the time.

Like, I never want to be the host who walks in and just says, this is the way I do it. It's not very efficient. I have a real passion for horse racing now. And that's just what's going to lead the show three days a week. Sorry. It's like, no, I can't do that. That's just not, I'm not going to do that. Like, I'm going to do a show that's going to have some mass appeal.

Sorry. I'm never going to be like, I made it. It doesn't matter. Drag racing is going to make the show. No, it's not, ever, not one time. And so when I heard that quote, I'm like, oh, wait a minute. It's a little Greg Popovich. Like, dude, it's six years post-Duncan.

You had the lowest win total odds in the league. Like, I don't think DeJonte Murray is a max guy, but he's your best guy. And you couldn't get along with Kauai. And Derozen left and had his best career year. Like, you know what I mean? Like, there is part of me thinking, you get really famous. You get rich, you have your legacy, and you're just like, F it. I'm going to do what I want to do.

I kind of feel that with Belichick a little bit. Two kids on the staff? That one, look, if you're telling me, Urban said that, and again, I've forgotten about it, so I'm not, I'm not disputing or anything like that. Yeah, that's not what it's really about. I mean, the Patriot Way thing was always kind of bullshit and oversold. And there was a weird thing, like, I was in Boston media. It was like, the football beat guys would like, look, I'd come to buy and do like a basketball show.

And it's like, hmm. NBA, huh? You know, as the Patriots are rolling and you're like, hey, you know, you're not on the team, right? Like, you're not on the team. So there was, there's not every member of the media with the Patriot side of it. But, you know, it was like, oh, they only bring in certain character guys and all these different things. And then it was like, yeah, actually you brought in this guy, brought in this guy, brought in this guy. So, like, you know, he just wants to go ahead and win, which in a weird way, I always felt like, you know, you can try to have 53 perfect citizens on the team. but there's a really good chance there's guys doing stuff

that don't get caught anyway. So I might as well take a couple guys that are cheaper because they've gotten into trouble. I think Herm Edwards once told me, he's like, I could take four of them because of a 53-man roster. You give me four.

He goes, if you get me five, it's too many. He's like, I can handle four guys that are a problem, which I always thought was kind of a funny quote. The Popovich one, though, I think that's his refusal to tank. You know, he's talked about it. I respect his position on it,

but if I own the franchise, I'd go, cool theories. It's easy for you with all of these rings to say, hey, that's not what we're going to operate. And now we're stuck in this middling thing with the least interesting roster in the entire NBA. Him not getting along with Kauai. I think it was Kauai more on the medical thing. And honestly, now, Kauai at two other stops, I don't think Kauai is that easy to get along with.

So I wouldn't put that one all on Popovich. But it is very interesting the combo of like, as you get later in life, does your priority change and is your priority actually what's better for the franchise long term? Pavavich, I think it's interesting discussion. Belichick, it's still too soon. I mean, hell, you know, something goes wrong. I think the bills are clearly the better team, probably the best team in the AFC at this point. But I'm also not going to be shocked if the past find a way with a good defense, Mac taking a step forward in another year.

But I just, I don't know. Belichick is a really difficult guy to question because it ends up usually working out for him, despite the fact I think he gets really cute about some stuff that to me feels like a waste of time for somebody that's that legendary at the job. Okay, so I always feel like part of it is just, you know, just being annoying. But I always feel like you do get one team as a sportscaster that you're a little bit of a fanboy. And so I'm a USC. All right.

But I'm a USC guy. Yeah, yeah. You're a USC. And I think it's funny. Like at this point, I'm just leaning into it because it pisses people off so much. And I think it's a riot. I saw Chip Kelly at the 900 club. He knows it.

And it's like, whatever, I like him. So who is yours? Oh, it's LSU. At this point, it's not really much of a secret. You know, I feel like coming from New England and going to Vermont that hasn't had a football team since 73, I believe. You know, I fell in love with college football in a way that I didn't really expect. I look. I always love college football.

I love watching it, you know, my dad, the big game or whatever. But I didn't really have an affinity for anything. There's maybe a little flirtation with Notre Dame as a kid because I love that Tony Rice team and Rocket Ishmael. And then, you know, my first time being to see Colt McCoy, I just love the kid. I'm thrilled. He's still in the league. He's one of my all-time favorites. And unfortunately, he was on the losing side of the greatest single football game I've ever been to when Texas Tech knocked off number one, A&M and 08, or excuse me, number one, Texas in Lubbock in 2008. It's greatest sporting event I've ever been to. and then, you know, I really like Chip up in Oregon, but I'll tell you that the LSU

experience the first time, it was a whole other level, man. It was a whole other level. I think I've been to 60 plus stadiums, campuses. I've been there for games. It's probably the best part of my entire ESPN run. And so I care about LSU now. Like, I care and I watch. I'll pay attention to the little recruiting stuff, but I'm not a psychopath about it.

Like, I'm just emotionally different with sports because I've been doing. You're 20 years. And I'm not saying it's better or worse. It's a little healthier, but I actually miss having that emotional mood swing on the line. Right. I know, I get it. Yeah, when the socks would blow a save when I was younger, they could blow the save on Monday. I've said the story a million times.

And I'd still be lingering my head being like, why the fuck they walked a leadoff guy? It'd be Thursday. You know, it would still be bothering me. So when the Red Sox, I still care about it. You know, I still care about the Celtics. Pat's I don't really care as much about, you know, if the Bruins are good, I'll watch a little bit more because I'll talk some hockey with my father as complete casuals on that one. But I'd say between LSU and then I think St. John's basketball, but it's just kind of a bit

off the radar and this expansion stuff that I hate the first casualty of many casualties, but the first casualty that really bothered me was Biggie's basketball. It's just not the same. It's never going to be the same again. And I hate it because it was an NBA factory there for a while. And now it feels like a group of five conference. which sucks, but, you know, I still care about St. Jones. The volume.

Make sure to check out the Dremont Green Show. I brought Dramon Green into the volume because one of the more entertaining voices in sports, unique perspective, understands behind the rope. Also chops up with guests like Gary Payton, Zach Levine, Tracy McGrady. Make sure download the Dramon Green Show wherever you get your podcast, only on the volume podcast network. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media.

Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Cliford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. On The Look Back at it podcast.

From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year.

I mean, it was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.