The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts - Hottest Takes, A Deep Dive On Aaron Rodgers, The NFL’s Cultural Dominance

Episode Date: July 20, 2024

Colin’s top takes of the week! First, Colin is joined by Danny Parkins, host of “Parkins & Spiegel” on 670 The Score in Chicago. They move on to the NFL’s cultural dominance and why the ascendance of Caitlin Clark and the WNBA has been a breath of fresh air (3:30) . Then they trade both their hottest sports takes (8:00) and the hot take they are most proud of (13:15) Then, Colin is joined by best-selling author Ian O’Connor to talk about his new book about Aaron Rodgers, “Out of the Darkness”. They start with a deep dive into Aaron’s artistics and contrarian personality (22:30), why Aaron is terrible at coming from behind in games (26:45) and why Green Bay was a surprisingly good fit for a kid from Berkeley, California (32:15). (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates!  #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was harmed. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Mark keep coming to him.

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The football season actually, to me, start Saturday. The Baltimore Ravens open their camp for the rookies. Draft Kings has a best ball millionaire contest. It is the biggest fantasy contest ever. We're talking 15 million guaranteed dollars in the prize pool. 15 million from Draft Kings. That's a big number. With two, two millionaires being crowned for first and second place, that is life-changing.

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I never wanted to be an 80% NFL show. And as I've done this, the longer I've done this, the NFL now has so separated for a variety of reasons from every other sport that there was a point about a year or two ago when college football was still very Bama dominated, that I wasn't talking college football. and I thought, God, you could put my show, it feels like, on the NFL network, and that's not a goal of mine. I actually, the WNBA, to me, has been such a breath of fresh air, not because I'm woke, or not because I feel that women deserve attention in sports, because it's good, it's polarizing, it's kind of tribal, it's captivating, and it allows me to get out of the NFL bubble. Do you ever feel a little bit sometimes like, God, I'm doing 75% NFL talk, and I can do more than that. Yeah, you know, well, it was funny filling in for you. You know, I'm in that pitch meeting, and I'm pitching your terrific staff takes. And I had, you know, it was NFL, Team USA, things like that, a little bit of Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese rookie of the year.

And so I had all the takes that I wanted to do. and then I said, so look, but you guys are the experts on like how Colin would structure a show. What should be like the lead? What's what's the A block? Because it was July 8th. There was nothing going on.

Which is why you were on vacation. And they were like, oh, well, your DAC take should be the lead. I'm like, but nothing's happening with deck. And they're like,

they're like, say that he took off his boot and then do your DAC take. I'm like, oh, okay. So that's like, That's like enough. And I, and of course there's a reason for it. Everybody cares about it. Huge team, huge fan base and all of that.

But yeah, it's definitely something that if and when I'm doing more stuff in your world in orbit, I'll feel that way. But local radio, baseball still matters a lot. Yeah. So I do a lot on the Cubs. The White Sox are historically bad and that's actually kind of interesting, either be great or be. awful, don't be a 76 win team. So the white sacks are historically bad and that's providing a little bit of humor. And then the Cubs are really interesting with a huge fan base that's super engaged and we air the games. So there's a new baseball game every day. And so there is at least

something there. So locally, I am not as starved for topics sometimes that have mass appeal. But Angel Reese is in our backyard here in Chicago. So like, I'm I do think, while I am not watching games first quarter to fourth quarter and like completely locked in, people are more interesting than teams. And these people are interesting stories that people have a lot of opinions about. So I'm all for it. And we have been doing some. And frankly, we're probably going to end up doing more.

So I always kind of roll my eyes. You know, I'm kind of, I am numb to kind of criticism. I think, you know, I work hard, I do what I do. I got a great staff. My staff, we just don't really, you know, we do content. We don't have time to look back. My rule has always been, I have opinions. You can have opinions on my opinions.

I'm not going to have an opinion on your opinion of my opinion. Like, I got three hours to fill tomorrow. But I like, and I see it infrequently, I think sometimes the Internet has scared away a lot of sports hosts, not political hosts, they don't care. but sports hosts are either more insecure or more defensive. You know, Sean Hannity, Rachel Maddow, Oberman, they don't care. Like I, but a lot of sports guys are bothered by getting picked on by, you know, whatever the site is.

And so nobody wants to be told you have a hot take. But the truth is, I like sportscasters who are like, I'm going to lay it out here. Like, I don't get this. And about two years ago, this was my hot take. and I'm going to ask for your hottest take. And my hot take was, Luca is just a much better version of Carmelo Anthony. Not in great shape.

And after about four years, you're never going to be Steve Prefontein. Okay, I can come to terms with it. A prodigy offensively, therefore never really had to be engaged defensively to matter. In the end, his teams will be lobsided, and he'll go through teammates, he'll work with some never ideally with any, but he's a better version of Carmel.

And I don't think it's a hot take because Mello did not complain to the officials as much as Luca. Luke is much more like Magic Johnson. Like, it's just a constant chatter. But my take is that he's better than Mello and both are first belt Hall of Famers. I mean, Mello, for his lack of postseason success is an all-time score. He's way up the list, right? Yeah.

is that Luke is a better version of Mello. He's never going to be in great shape. He was such a prodigy. It would be like being a pianist, a prodigy at seven. You're probably not going to be great at sports. You're not going to be great at other things because you're just going to lean into your artistry on the piano, right? And I think they're so gifted offensively.

LeBron never had a great jumper early. He was just, he was gifted physically, but he wasn't a pretty offensive player. He really had to work at it. Mello at 12 could hit an 18-footer and it looked like art. It was a Monet. And that's my hot take is that Luca, we're going to look back. He's going to be a top five score. He may get a ring.

He's never in great shape. Not really engaged defensively. And he'll go through a series of teammates. Somebody gets along with many he doesn't. That's my hot take. Where's yours? It's a good one. It's a good one.

Luca a better passer than Mello. So I even like more complete all around game. Like Melo Pure Score, look, man, I mean, I have so many that like age poorly and like immediately. Like you do this for a lot for long enough.

You do like if people like pick on me or get mad at me for like me just being wrong. I'm like, okay. Then you document 20 hours of opinions a week. And we'll speak out you. Like you know what actually like first, desensitized me to not caring about being wrong, gambling. Like, I've been gambling on sports longer than I've been hosting radio shows professionally.

I started gambling on sports when I was recovering from back surgery in high school. I was 15 or 16 years old. It was like, yeah, you're wrong sometimes on your predictions. I mean, listen, I said it was, there was a 0% chance that Tony LaRouca was going to get hired as the manager of the White Sox. He was hired four days later. I said John Baldwin was going to be a Hall of Famer. He was an incredible bust.

There are so many that are, listen, I said that I would trade my dog for Deshawn Watson for him to be the quarterback of the Bears. And five days later, there were 65 accounts of sexual misconducts that came out. Oh, God. I've had some real ones that blow up my face. But it's funny, you know the one from the six hours of doing your show that I'm getting killed for the most in my group chat with like my friends, Nick has gotten on me? You think Justin Herbert's the third best quarterback in the world to start a franchise with? I'm like, yeah, I do. You know he has no playoff wins?

Yeah, but there has to be an eye test. I have to be able to say that, yes, he has no playoff wins. He has a horrendous blown lead. There have been multiple coaches that have been there. But I have to be able to trust myself that no matter what a grade looks like from a scouting service or a yards per attempt, or a win-loss record, I have to say that when I watch these games, when I watch 11 hours of football,

start to finish on a Sunday, who's more physically talented than that dude throwing a football? Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes. That's it. That's the list. And my list was Mahomes won Alan 2, Herbert 3, Stroud 4.

People are like, how do you not have Stroud in front of him? I'm like, well, Stroud was amazing, but he's done it one time. He had 23 passing touchdowns. Like it was, it was an incredible year. Five interceptions, over 4,000 yards as a rookie. No one thought Nico Collins and Tankdale were going to be things. And now he's made him into great players.

But like, he did it once. No one's thrown for more yards through the first five years of a career than Justin Herbert. And I know Anthony Lynn was terrible at clock management. And I know the chargers have been cursed with injuries. And I know he's had three different play callers or four different play callers now since he's been into the league. I'm like, at some point, I just have. to trust my eyes, and there's no doubt in my mind that Harbaugh and him are going to win big. So I haven't sold a share of Justin Herbert stock.

Like, if the Bears would have traded the rights to Caleb Williams for Justin Herbert, I would have been like, I get it. I get it. Like, it'd be hard for me to pound the table because Caleb is so much cheaper. But I just think that that dude's so unbelievably talented that I'm willing to go down with the show. Now, is there a hot take that you're proud. of. I'll throw one out. I said Johnny Mansell and Zach Wilson can't play a lick. Oh, good for you.

I was like, nope, Johnny Mansell can. By the way, I've met Johnny. There's qualities about Johnny that I think are great. I think he's probably a great hang and a great friend. If you had to pick NFL quarterbacks to go party within a Friday night, he'd be a blast. He'd be funny. He's cocky. He's smart. Probably tells great stories. I just, I said, I don't. I don't. care what Nick Saban says. That is not an NFL quarterback. He's not disciplined enough. His shoulders, his waist, he's too tiny. He's small. People think Baker Mayfield, but I always said Baker's overdrafted. He can play. He's a franchise quarterback. People think I hated Baker. It's like, no, no, no. He's draftable. I just wouldn't draft him as a GM. I don't like his temperament as a 20-year-old.

I also said Zach Wilson, and I think Joe Douglas is a good GM. I'm like, guys, go to the three best teams he played in He won during a COVID season. He can't, this is not an NFL starting quarterback. So pat myself in the back. Do you have one you took shit for? But in retrospect, you're like, I'm kind of proud of that one because I was on an island. You know, it's so funny. I mean, like, again, there's a hundred of them because you can't, you know what I mean?

I'm so right about so many things and so wrong about so many things that I don't even really, like, think about it in those terms. But so my wife went to Clemson. and we were in Mexico and Clemson was playing Georgia and there was like a 20-inch TV on in like the sports bar and the all-inclusive resort that we were at and Clemson in their first game of the season

they were starting fifth year senior Cole Stout. And I was like, okay, I don't really, we were just like dating at the time. It's like one of our first trips we took together. So I'm like trying to, I'm watching more college football because of her, she's super into it.

I'm like, all right, let's check out this Clemson team. I'm like, oh, Cole Stout, this guy stinks. Three possessions into the game. They bring in a true freshman by the name of Deshawn Watson. And this guy throws a ball 60 yards in the air. And I'm just like, who is that? She's like, I don't know. But she's a fan, but she doesn't know that like, she's not following recruiting.

And I'm like, I'm like, who is that? She's like, I don't know. I'm like Googling it. Like, that guy's your quarterback. That guy's going to win a Heisman trophy. That guy's going to the NFL. He's going to be the first pick in the draft. And he wasn't. But I ended up watching every game that he played in college. We went to Arizona to watch him in the title game against Alabama when he had four

passing touchdowns, a rushing touchdown. And they lost because Nick Saban onside kicked to keep the ball out of his hands. So it's not like the hottest take in the world because he was obviously a big time recruit. but I pride myself on actually watching the games. Same. I'm going to watch the games and I try not to be terribly on Twitter during the games. I try not to see everyone else's opinion on things while I'm watching. I try to watch the game, have an opinion and then see if I'm in the majority,

the minority, or I'm alone on an island. And so I felt like with him, so the Bears had the third pick in the draft, they traded up. And I was like, I don't understand this. I was like, I don't get the Mahomes thing. I don't get the Trubisky thing. Mahomes is from the Big 12. They've never put a good quarterback into the NFL. It's the air raid. There's no way that'll work. Mitch Trubisky, he's in the ACC with Sean Watson. He's started for one year. And you're telling me that a guy who played Bama in back-to-back title games, won, one lost one, and is the first 4,000, 1,000-yard guy in college football history, you're telling me that's not the number one pick in the draft.

And so I was just banging the drum for the bears to take to Sean Watson. And obviously he goes third. He would have been much better than Trubisky, the personal off the field stuff who could have known. That aged very poorly. But when he had that 5,000 yard, 4,800-yard season with Bill O'Brien at 23 years old, I was like, I told you. I was like, I told you this guy's better than bitch Barbicki. I'm like, I should be the GM of the Bears. So, I ain't like, honestly.

Isn't that an obvious point? Like, what do these guys get paid for to do 20 hours a week of work to say that a one-year starter at North Carolina? How does that happen? So you have an upcoming fantasy football draft? Well, then you need to check out the fantasy pros draft wizard. When you sink your fantasy football league with draft wizard, you'll get an instant report that shows you how the rest of your league drafts.

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I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

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Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds.

Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because When they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nasree. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court, licking his fingers while he got the ball. After you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, I only get the opportunity a couple times a year because he's the hardest working man in print journalism in America.

You know, Connor, my friend, he's got a book, I cannot wait to read it. I've already had several shots at several chapters, and it's so in depth. It's called Out of the Darkness, the Mystery of Aaron Rogers. it comes out next month. You know, as you've written this book, I don't mean to laugh, but Aaron's like a story-a-week guy. I keep thinking, do you have to keep doing updates for the book? I did, actually, Colin, and thank you very much for the kind words.

I handed in the book in January, and at that point, after asking to get him for months and getting no response or being told he's thinking about it, assuming at that point, he's not going to talk to me. And generally, my biographies, they've been unauthorized with limited or no cooperation from the main subject. So then in February, I got a message from the Jets. Well, he's actually now willing to talk to you. And it wasn't going to be a 10-hour sit-down where he told me his life story,

but it was more of fact-checking hour or two. So I got two hours with him. And great. So he answered some questions. He made the book better. And then after that, you had the R.S. FK Jr. story dropped. After that, you had the Sandy Hook conspiracy story drop. And then some podcasts he did after my access to him where more conspiracies were talked about. And so,

listen, Aaron Rogers, he was a very difficult subject to get your arms around. I thought Belichick was tough, but compared to Rogers, I think Belichick was a walk in the park because Because he was a mystery that I felt like there was a sameness to it at the same time, and he was right in front of me. And I always felt that Rogers was a moving target. And so it was a challenge, and hopefully I conquered it. I guess the readers will let me know if I did. Yeah, I think, you know, complex people are interesting. And I've said, Aaron's really good content for me.

there are parts of Aaron that I've said on the show before my theory on Aaron, one of them is he just pushes back on authority. His family was very religious. He pushed back on it. He pushed back on the Packers. He's pushed back on the media. He's pushed back on the government, vaccines. Whether that's a good quality or not, it can be unsettling to people covering him. but my belief is he's a nonconformist.

Many of the people in our lives, musicians and artists, we have celebrated, are nonconformists. Is there a bit of artistry to his personality? That's probably the wrong word. But in my life, we have often celebrated, there's a construct of football that we want organizational, dependable, reliable personalities. and is it arguable or debatable, he's more of an artist in a structured sport? That's a great question. And I'm used to Eli Manning, that model, that Eli Manning, Derek Jeter model in New York,

and Aaron is the complete opposite of that. And so, but there is an art to creating a new cycle rolling out of bed, and that's what he can do. He can do that better than anyone else, maybe in all sports. He can create a new cycle like that. So, and we've seen that over the years. And I think he loves being interesting. I think he loves being talked about. He loves being analyzed.

I don't think he loves the way the news media has treated him in recent years. I think his viewpoints politically, generally are in contrast with what he believes is the liberal media, largely liberal media. And he's right for the most part. And you look at him, though, what's interesting is his life, his public life, Colin changed with COVID. because before COVID and the I've been immunized press conference in August of 21, he was not considered a villain. He was a guy who was very socially aware. He backed Colin Kaepernick and the right to kneel in protest. He actually rebuked the fan who screamed out or shouted out an anti-Muslim slur in the middle of the national anthem. I think it was right after the Paris terrorist attacks and got a letter of congratulations.

congratulations or thanks or appreciation from President Obama. Mena Kimes had that. And so he was sort of known as an athlete who was socially aware and engaged in the issues and really on the right side of the issues. And all of a sudden, COVID and his stance against vaccines changed everything for him in terms of his public image. I'm going to throw this out and you can latch on to this. And if there's any story in the book that corroborates or refutes this, go ahead.

But I've said one of the statistics with Aaron that doesn't make a lot of sense on the surface is his lack of come from behind wins in the NFL. 21 playoff games, he has one. That would be low for a bad quarterback. He's an all-time great. And I've often used, you know, maybe it's right, a little glib, he's more of a bailer than a baller. Is that when he plays poorly early, he quits. that he's not a foxhole guy, he's just brilliantly gifted. Jeter was more of a leader.

Arod was more talented. Brady's more of a leader. Aaron's just more talent. And that I look at him that there's a lack of fundamental lack of trust in a process. And when he struggles early in games, his body language shifts, when he trails latent games, there's a lack of trust for the play calling. And that's part of his personality. It's the only thing I can figure out and decide.

why a gifted quarterback in 21 playoff games has only one come from behind win. Does any of this line up with some of his unique personality quirks or his fundamental base personality? Well, when he was younger, he was a fearless postseason player. And I think he, what he won, four of his first five postseason games. And the throw he made to beat Pittsburgh in the Super Bowl, the third down throw over the middle to Jennings. It's one of the great throws in Super Bowl history. On third down, if that pass is incomplete, I think the Steelers win that Super Bowl. And so he makes that play and other plays in that game. And in that postseason run, if you go back, Colin, as I did, of course, and look at

particularly the game against Atlanta and the playoffs that year that he won it, you cannot play the position at a higher level than that. Right. Right. He had some Alan Iverson-Tyerson type ankle breaking moves to escape guys in the pocket that were just unbelievable and the throws he made. And just the way he played in that game, it was art. It was just hard to believe somebody could play at that level. And after watching that game and seeing him win the Super Bowl, it is really hard still after studying his career in his life to come to grips with the fact that the Packers could not figure out a way to win a second ring with this guy. It's just unbelievable. One thing I'll point out, so this doesn't really relate to his upbringing or character.

traits. But he, listen, if they recover an onside kick, he's in the second Super Bowl. They don't recover an onside kick and didn't do six other things in the final minutes of that game. And by the way, and by the way, that comeback drive to tie and send it into overtime against Seattle is totally forgotten. Was an amazing drive by Aaron Rogers to get that game into overtime after the team and really the coaching staff around him fell apart. So that doesn't count because they lost. But just in that building, the loudest building in the NFL, after the rest of the team really folded around him

to drive that team down the field to force overtime and lose it basically on a coin toss. So that's a tough one because they get to the Super Bowl that year. They had beaten New England in the regular season. So they would have a lot of confidence against Brady in the Super Bowl that year. But he did not have Belichick. Okay. Mike McCarthy was not a bad coach, but he's not even close to Belichick.

Tom Brady also had the best offensive coordinator of his generation. And Brady had this great system that Belichick created. Right. And Aaron Rogers had a slightly better than average head coach and didn't have that system or offensive coordinator. A lot of times didn't have a great defense. And so I think that's that, hey, it's there. And it's part of his legacy. The lack of comeback victory certainly is right there on his record.

But he very easily in a different situation would have the multiple rings that he doesn't have right now, that everybody holds against him. And he has a part in that, too. There were postseason victories that he left on the field that he could have made a play to overcome somebody else. And he didn't do that. And certainly that is part of his record as well. Now, I always thought there was such a unique, interesting contrast between this great-looking

hipster that went to Berkeley that ends up in Green Bay, Wisconsin, the smallest, talking about the loneliest places in the NFL. Do you think, Aaron, on a social level, what was Green Bay like for him? That's always been fascinating. I know he goes to Malibu in the offseason. But for about 20 weeks, you live in Green Bay. Bay, Wisconsin. Did you think he liked it, appreciated it?

He did. And it's funny because after he got drafted, of course, he's very disappointed that he plunged in the first round. He was supposed to go. A lot of people thought he should have gone number one to his childhood team. San Francisco, that was his dream. The Niners pick Alex Smith instead. So he falls to 24 to Green Bay.

And Thomas Weatherspoon, former NCAA champion sprinter, was a trainer for Aaron Rogers, a guy who made him faster. And he said to him, this is great. This is like Chico with snow. Green Bay, quarterbacks in Green Bay, they're going to build a statue for you. And they're going to love you to death. And there's no better place to be. So this plunge in the first round is really a blessing in the skies. And I think Aaron saw that. And now, I don't think the Green Bay community embraced him like it embraced Brett Farr, because they saw Farrv as one of us, even though he was from the South. Yes.

Right. Hunter, fishermen, hanging out with the boys in the bar, high-fiving fans over a beer, by everyone around in the bar until, of course, he went into, until he got sober. And then that changed a little bit. But, yeah, Farrv, they saw he is one of us. And I don't think they ever saw Rogers as one of us. But I think it was a really good fit for him coming from a small market, being overlooked, a Juko guy. And then he ends up in Green Bay.

And it really was a great marriage, even though it wasn't the same relationship with the fans that Farr have had. And it just can't believe that they only won one championship with them. When you look at the talent and some of it is his fault. but it's a shame. And really, at the end for John Elway, he got a second ring, got his first ring and a second ring at the end of his career. And Peyton Manning got that second ring right at the end of his career. And I think that it would be a good thing, really, to see Aaron Rogers get that second ring before he retires because he's too good to retire with one ring.

Thankfully, he's got one and not zero because we'd be really destroying him for that. But he really should retire with multiple rings. and, hey, listen, the Jet fan base is the most fatalistic fan base I've ever encountered. And at some point, it's going to happen. Entering the 2004 season, the Red Sox fan base thought it would never happen, and it did. Entering 2016, the Cubs fan base thought it would never happen, and it did. New York Ranger fan base in 94 thought it would never happen, and it did. So at some point, it will happen for the Jets.

Hopefully it would be this year. Thanks so much for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, take a moment, rate and review. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends. on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest

playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was crying. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in to you, he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us. From IHeart Podcasts, Saigon. You don't think I'm serious about a free Vietnam?

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