The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts - Matthew Stafford’s Future, NFL Draft Combine, Steph Curry’s Impact On Basketball, Embrace Caitlin Clark

Episode Date: March 1, 2025

Colin’s top takes of the week! First, he’s joined by John Middlekauff, host of “3 and Out” to talk NFL! They start by floating the idea of the Rams and Giants flipping first round picks in exchange for Matthew Stafford, discuss whether Stafford is worth the Giants #3 overall pick and caution Stafford against negotiating too hard and ending up with a much worse team in New York (3:00).  They debate which teams will be in hot pursuit of Sam Darnold and which landing spots would be the best fit (13:30). They preview the NFL Draft combine and react to the news that quarterback Shedeur Sanders won’t attend (16:00). They talk about the recent trend of some NFL teams not even attending the combine and why there’s real value in attending in person (18:45).  Colin predicts that Travis Hunter could end up underachieving in the NFL relative to his projections, and they explain why he’d be best served focusing on being a top cornerback instead of receiver (20:30).  Then, Colin’s joined by Ethan Strauss, sportswriter and host of the “House of Strauss” podcast! They talk about the revival of the Golden State Warriors brand to now being considered one of the top 5 most valuable franchises, debate how much of that valuation can be attributed to Steph Curry and agree he’s the most transformational athlete in American sports history (31:30).   Finally, they discuss Caitlin Clark being the “Steph Curry” of women’s sports and why the WNBA has missed opportunities to capitalize on her popularity (40:45).  Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates!  #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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I love it. I talked about this before vacation, then it happened during vacation, and I was told by a source I really trust that Matt Stafford's agent and the Rams are going to meet at the Combine this week and try to bang something out. The Rams like him, Matt likes him.

They want to stay together. He understands the importance of McVeigh and Pooka Nakua and the organization, and the Rams like him, and it's a bad quarterback class, and Aaron Rogers is an option, but not a preferred option. Stafford's better now.

So, but here's an interesting thing. A lot of giants have pushback on this were not giving up the number three pick. So my take is, would you flip picks with the Rams? Because it's different. If this was a great quarterback draft class, I'd be very reluctant to give it the number three pick because I could trade down, right, which the Rams would do if they got the number three pick. They would trade down and get more picks.

The Giants, they're not necessarily going to. a trade down. They're just going to draft the quarterback, or they would get Stafford so they wouldn't have to. But when you as a GM, I would have no problem getting Matt Stafford, giving him a three-year deal, maybe four, you know, I would draft a quarterback second year into it, and just say, okay, I'll take the Rams pick late first. You get my draft top of the first. I would have no problem doing that because they've been unwatchable for a decade. The coach and the GM are on the hot seat in New York. Between Jade and Daniels and the Eagles roster, you're non-competitive. You're not a competitive team going forward. But when I say that, giant fans are, you cannot trade the number three pick. There are

drafts, I agree with that. This is, you're not getting Cam Ward. This is not one of those drafts to me. If I was a GM, I couldn't trade that valuable of a pick and pay a 37-year-old guy who does have some injury concerns at this point in time. But those guys are fighting for their jobs. So I think if you sat in Brian Dayball shoes, he wouldn't hesitate to do that. I think he would just give the number three pick for Matt Stafford. Why would he not? He's going to get fired. And fair or not, like he would not get a job immediately after. And the general manager, let's also just speak in realities, would never get another job. Right. So to me, now, if I was the owner, I could not, we would not be doing that. That's, I think it's risky business. I would also not be in business.

look at the last two quarterbacks that were older, they got a lot of money, that the Packers, who are one of the best drafting teams of like all time, we're like, yeah, we're done with Aaron Rogers. And then Kevin O'Connell was like, yeah, I'm done with Kurt Cousins. And both those teams regretted those moves immediately. I mean, the Aaron Rogers thing, well, they had to make that move. Like, I don't blame them for making that trade the Jets. But that was a disaster. The Cousins thing was even worse because at least Rogers at one point in time is one of the greatest players ever.

Cousins always had some limitations coming off the Achilles. And let's face it, Colin, they're probably going to cut him in the next seven, ten days. He's going to get cut. So now, Stafford at this point in time, is better than that version of Rogers and definitely cousins. But, you know, where I come with Stafford, you know, he is going to accumulate it. I looked, he made over $220 million in Detroit. His career earnings right now are about $360 million. So when his career is over, he will be over $400 million.

So even after taxes and after paying agents, he will have accumulated before he's four years old, over $200 million in net income. I'm not even talking about what he's made off the field in L.A. I know he's, I see him on sleep number commercials. He is really, really rich, right? At this point in time, when you spent a decade and a half almost in an irrelevant franchise and losing constantly in the peak of your powers, wouldn't you go, like, look at what Tom did?

Like, wouldn't it make sense to be, hey, Sean, it doesn't get any better in the Rams. I know we're well run. I know I have an elite coach. I'm in a huge market. I have made Peyton Manning level money, and I have got my ass kicked, and we drafted in the top 10. Now I'm with a franchise,

who I don't even know these guys they're bringing in. All of a sudden, by midseason, they're ass kickers. Like, why would I want, I would come out, I would have stopped this conversation. I will do whatever it takes.

I'm not going to make $5 million, but why wouldn't he be like, I'm making 27 this year? Let's do a two-year deal for like $40 million, guarantee every penny. You go out and buy players. I want to be here. I'm going to go Brady.

I've already, and people like, count other people's money. This guy has made so much money and he played in such a bad franchise. Shouldn't he? Like, I wouldn't want any part of the Giants if you're Matt Stafford. What are we talking about? But he likes his money. There's no doubt. Like him and Jimmy Sexton, they have been Peyton Manning like every penny, every penny, every penny. And I don't blame the Rams. Like, no, no more every penny, buddy. I think Stafford wants to stay with the Rams. And to your point, I would want to stay with the Rams. The value of Sean McVeigh for a quarterback. And just the franchise and how well run they all now.

He saw the Lions for 15 years. Yeah. No, I think a lot of this, I think when things go public and, you know, like Stephen A's contract went public. I always think when I see that that the person actually wants to sign with a company. It goes public. You know, I mean, and I'm – this is a. not a shot at Stephen A, but I always think that whenever a person, because I could make my stuff go public on my contract, and I don't, I'm not comfortable with it. But a lot of people are,

and I'm not begrudging them, but Stafford and these people that it gets out, either through their agent or sources, stuff gets out when people want it, want it out, right? Like in my entire life, stories get out when people want it out. That's the reason stuff gets out. I've got secrets in my career in negotiations, never gotten out because the company doesn't want them out and I don't want them out. This time in my negotiations, nothing gets out. I don't want it out. They don't want it out. I always tell my bosses, keep it out of the press. I don't want anything in the press. But when people do, it does get out there. It's generally because the sides want a deal. They want to remain. So when I see the Matt Stafford stuff, my take is Matt wants to stay in Los Angeles.

He's got a gorgeous place near the beach and I think Hermosa, Manette Beach. It's great weather. He was in the Midwest for years. He's a Texas, Georgia kid. He probably likes warm weather. And this is not an indictment on anybody that goes public. But it discounts in politics. If you're trying to get legislation passed, it counts in contracts.

It counts when I, I mean, stuff is out when somebody is trying to create leverage. but they truthfully, they want to stay where they're at. So I think he'll be a ram. I think, yeah, I think this one's pretty clear because this kind of happened last year. It feels a little more out this year is that the Rams are tough to negotiate with. You know, early on in their tenure with Les and Sean, they signed a deal that they clearly regretted in Todd Gurley. And ever since they've been pretty good, right?

And they haven't got in these positions where, you know, the Niners have kind of found themselves the last couple years like, ah, we regret that. Debo deal. Ah, we regret that IUC deal. And now they're kind of burned and now they're pivoting like, oh, we got to be careful with doing that stuff. The Rams learned early on because Todd Gurley's knee just went. Right. And this Stafford thing, I think they have just been, they've been tough with him. You know, he's been, you know, with Detroit, they always bent right over and gave him and he was always the highest paid guy. You know, the last couple years, it's been hard. He's like, I'm only making 27. They're like, well, we'll give you a couple million dollars more, but we're not,

we're not giving you two years, a hundred million dollars, Matt. That's just not happening. Right. And we want you, you want us, we're winning. Listen, and I know you only have a chance. Like, once he leaves, he's probably not going to make, when he's 42 years old, retired $30 million, his first shot, whatever he does. So I understand you have the opportunity to make a lot of, but he's made so much in winning. Like, he could go down as a legendary player that I would be very careful about driving this hard in negotiation. Now, I think he also knows, like, what would the Rams do? You know, Sean McVeigh, they're not really in the business of just like, oh, we'll figure it out on the fly. Like, they understand what they have. But I think they have some negotiating power because, like you said, he doesn't want to leave. Look at his options. Like, the giants or the Titans are going to trade for you.

What are we talking about? Gross. And I do think there's, I think the Aaron Rogers thing has some legs. And I'll say this. We know that coaching matters with quarterbacks. Last 10 games last year, when Sala was gone, the Jets were one of the poorest coach teams in the league. They're up and down, both sides of the ball.

And Aaron put up good numbers. Aaron with McVeigh would put up good numbers, B plus numbers, maybe not A numbers. So I think that's something they've thought about. Aaron's got a place in Malibu, and it's like, hey, if we get trapped here, we'll bring on Aaron for a couple of year deal. Plus, Aaron, from all the indications, Aaron wanted to be a jet and was dumped for the second time. So I think Aaron does not want to end his career like that. And again, I thought in his last 10 games, he had like a 98 passer rating. He was pretty good.

So my take is Aaron, it's not a, I mean, I had somebody that I really trust tell me this, that Aaron Rogers is who McVeigh would go after. I mean, he went after a guy in Baker Mayfield that came with baggage. He went after him in one second. Yeah, Carson Wentz, they got, you know, they've done a lot of that. He has no, he's got, he's like the young version of Andy Reid. They'll take on problems. The difference, though, is to me, there's a big difference as the player. Aaron Rogers wants no part of getting hit.

He just will not, and that's still a quality that Stafford will sit in there and he'll get peppered as he delivers a strike. And that, you know, at the level in which the Rams, I mean, they're the only team that went toe to toe to toe with the Eagles. You know, so it's like they're trying to compete for the Super Bowl. That difference in standing in there throughout the course of a season and the big games, I think there would be a drop off unless Aaron was just willing again to play like he did. And I don't think at 41 years old, he would be. I mean, that is one thing Stafford will sit in there, kind of like old school quarterbacks and still get hit. So I understand maybe he is negotiating like, hey, guys, you know, I'm taking a lot of hits here too. Like, I need some money for these bruises that I wake up with every Monday morning.

Let's just throw this name out there because the combine starts this week. And before we get into that, free agencies after that, Sam Darnold had a couple of disappointing games end of the season. Sam Darnold had a really good season. Sam's got a market. Sam is still in the middle of his prime. What is your, I contend that Las Vegas and with Chip Kelly and the Colts with Shane Steichen are really good fits. Indy feels like Sam in that division can go toe to toe with those quarterbacks. You're not going toe to toe with a Herbert, I don't think, or a Mahomes.

But I think you put him in the AFC South with Shane Steichen. I think he can go toe to toe with a C.J. Strout on most Sundays. What do you think happens with Sam? Yeah, I mean, a lot changed. I remember going live with you right after he made that throw against Seattle. And I was like, this guy, how are they going to not give him a huge contract? And it shows you the power of these primetime games. Let's face, there was a lot.

You know, obviously the division was on the line that Sunday night. And then the playoff game was really, really bad. I still think at minimum he's going to get a Baker Mayfield three years, a $100 million type contract, isn't he? And clearly with good coaching, you can. I mean, his team was 60 minutes away from the number one, overall scene and he played a massive role in that. So I, I think you got to be careful. Yeah, I think that game exposed a little bit when he starts getting blitzed. He starts, you know,

I don't want to say seeing ghosts. He's come a long way since then. But he looked dramatically different in those two games that he did. But you'd also say he's, you know, Aaron Glenn became a head coach, one of the best defensive coordinators in the league and just was blitzing him every single play. And Sean McVeigh and Shula are just, they have that defense rolling. I mean, they went, they were hitting hurts. They made him look bad in that game. They were playing good. defense. So I still would have no problem given. Now, here's the thing, like, you know, these quarterbacks, the dominoes, all these teams looking are going to have some ranking going into the combine when they talk to the agents. So are you all in on Sam Donald? Because if you draft,

or if you sign Sam Donald to a multi-year deal, you're probably not drafting a quarterback if you're the Giants, if you're the Titans, if you're the Raiders. But if you take cousins or Rogers, you know, you're probably still have no problem drafting a quarterback really high. So I think Darnold would be the one guy that would just get signed and immediately become, you know, kind of not your long-term starter, but at least in the immediate next couple of year starter. What do you expect? Combine starts on Thursday. Shadur Sanders won't work out at the combine, which has become kind of a trend with quarterbacks.

What are you expecting? What are you looking for? Yeah, to me, Shador is a good example of, like, coming into this year, every important college director slash assistant GM saw him play life. He was such a big prospect coming into the season. There is not an NFL team worth their salt. And every team, once they realized we needed a quarterback, probably saw him multiple times play games. So it's the combine for him. And I'd even say the same thing about Cam Ward. Remember, when he transferred to Miami, he was the number one, essentially free agent college football. I think it would go for him as well, which wouldn't shock me if he

doesn't throw, though, Shador isn't, you know, some elite prospect in terms of his qualities. Yeah. Like, if you're Josh Allen, you should throw at the combine. Why? You're throwing 100 miles an hour. I remember Lamar Jackson, when he got all the pushback about Polion's comment about the wide receiver, he's like, I'm not going to run. It's like, Lamar, you're going to run a 4-2. Everyone's head's going to turn, and you're going to be the talk of the combine.

It was a mistake not running. Now, granted, it all worked out. I don't blame Shadour for not throwing in this environment, because it's not. the best environment. If I'm Cam Ward, you have a huge arm, throw. No one cares about completions, in completions. You're throwing people you don't know. Let that ball rip as all the coaches and GMs are sitting there in the boxes

and in the seats right there in Indy. So I think those two guys, and a huge part of the combine is the interviews. And with a quarterback, and I would throw Jackson, Dorton here, who I think is going to gain some momentum as a potential first round pick, is the person? Like, what are you like as a guy? I mean, last year, you see some of these clips. It was a pretty high-level class.

You know, Jane Daniels, really high-level guy. Obviously, Caleb, everyone had known him for years, and he was a lot to go number one. But Drake May, Michael Panics, I mean, Bo Nicks, Jay-J McCarthy, so it was like, they're going to crush these interviews. Coaches, this is the first, the GMs and the scouts have been watching these guys for years.

The coaches, you know, NFL coaches, don't really watch as much college football as the average fan would think. The head coach might have it on. you know, Andy Reid does, but a lot of guys are just go tunnel vision. They don't know that much about these players and definitely have never met them. And a lot of times haven't really evaluated them. So this is kind of their first exposure.

So meeting them as a human being and getting to know the guy and getting to know like their football smarts and their football IQ, it's a huge, huge moment for all the guys that, you know, are in the mix to, I mean, all these guys are going to get drafted, the majority of the guys go to combine. But definitely the guys that have like the ability to get drafted in the first round. I mean, there's just a lot of money on the line, you know, getting drafted high. Yeah, the combine's interesting. I think I was into it more 10 years ago.

And I think some coaches feel the same way. They don't necessarily. Some go, some don't. Have you been surprised as a former NFL scout? Some of these coaching staffs just don't go anymore. They just say, I'm not going. Not wasting my time. Is that surprise you?

Yeah, honestly, it's bothered me in the past because I go, well, Belichick always went. And now I'll promise you this, Andy Reid's going to be there. It's like, well, if the best guy's there, and values it. It doesn't mean he goes to everything, but he values meeting the guys, because there's one thing to evaluate them off a tape. Everything's taped, right? Your workout and even your interviews. And some of these guys now can be there in a Zoom interview. There is a big difference if you're interviewing someone to be the 13th overall pick, standing there and talking to them and meeting him, seeing him face to face, and zooming him. So I do believe you should go. I saw

my guy Tim Calacommi in the Bay area. Kyle Shanahan, like McVeigh, stop going. Well, it's one thing when you're going to the Super Bowl or the NFC championship every year. He reported Kyle's probably going to go this year. Kind of need to meet these guys. But my thing is, like, if the top coach is there and Sandy Reed who runs the league, you should be there. And so I do believe there's value, not in like your change of direction in a con dundra. Okay.

But like you might draft this guy in the second round. It's kind of going to be a big deal when it's like a year in you hate the kid. And it's your own fault when you didn't put in max effort to get to know him to get to meet him. every opportunity. I mean, at this point in time, the salary caps almost $300 million. This is a pretty big business. Yeah. You know, these are your most important assets. So I do think the value is more less about the running and catching the gauntlet drill and more just

sitting with the kid and interviewing them and being there with your coordinators. Not every coach needs to go, but to me, the head coach and the coordinators should all be present with the scouting staff. There are certain things that are just innate. they're true. You can't argue them. There's going to be a couple players in the top 15 that will be busts. They just won't be very good. And for a variety of issues, some, I mean, Roma Dunzee is talented. He wasn't as good as I thought as a rookie. I think he'll, I mean, I thought there'd be more splash, but I think a lot of it was, it was such a mess. You know, it was all a mess. And I think he'll bounce back.

I'm going to throw Travis Hunter out as a player that could be that could underachieve. So I don't doubt he's good enough to be a number two receiver in the NFL and a number one corner. I don't doubt either. But to ask to be both, if you had a great linebacker who also played tight end, it's undeniable that the physical toll would hurt what your best at. I would put him at corner, but he wants to be a receiver. I don't know if he's a number one receiver in the NFL, maybe on a weaker team. He's certainly good enough. But you can't be a number one receiver if you have a young quarterback who's trying to get reps, confidence, and timing.

It's a timing position. Running back isn't. Cornerback isn't. I mean, high school to college, college to the pros, running back and cornerback, you can walk in and just play. You could just, I mean, those are two positions I've been told this forever. You would know this as a scout. Running back and cornerback. You could miss some of camp.

You could be a, you could have a contract holdout. You're ready to play week one or week two. Well, it's a very instinctive position, both of them. Wide receiver, especially with a young quarterback, it's a timing position. Hell, Brady was an old quarterback. If he didn't trust, you'd be in the right spot. Tom would ghost you. I think Travis Hunter, I think this coming.

to a bad team, he'll have a lot of leverage, he'll play both ways. I could see that being a problem. Well, you know, and we'll find out, it was just a name on a paper, did announce he's going to the combine as a corner. Now, all the top guys will be interviewed. They go to the podium. It'll be interesting if he says, I'm here as a corner, but I also plan on playing wide receiver. I do think it's fair to say most high-level people in any industry are very singular focused, and it is very difficult to spread yourself thin, especially when you're factoring in youth. I mean, he's very young.

I think it's impossible to go do what he did. What he did in college was the Big 12 wasn't the SEC or the Big Ten, but it was still one of the greatest athletic achievements we've ever seen the amount of snaps he's playing. Do you agree with that? Oh, yeah. But if you're going to be a both-way corner wide receiver, just playing corner alone,

think of the wide receivers right now in the NFL, the talent on a weekly. basis of just pick up a random team who their schedule is on a week. You're chasing those guys for 60, 70 snaps. He would be the number one corner. And then you would try to play full-time wide receiver. I think it would be borderline impossible on the body. I don't think it's, and you go back to look at Dion Sanders. I don't even think he had that many catches in his career. And this is, and Dion, I mean, was just a better prospect. Yes. I mean, Charles is a great prospect. Give me me a break. Deon's one of the greatest athletes in the history of America.

Right. So I do think he just needs to focus on one of the positions, and I hope, and I think he's making the right decision right now at corner, and then he can be just a high-level corner. I don't think it's possible to go both ways. I don't think any team wants them to be. That doesn't mean you can't, you know, a Ben Johnson-type coordinator can't run a trick-play for him, bring him in on offense. They used to do that with Dion when I was a kid. But like, I want you to be a lockdown corner, Derek Stingley. He's probably going to get $100 million this off-season. Why? because he goes up against your number one wide receiver who are all making $180 million

and locks them down. De Rivas did it, Sherman did it. You get paid a lot of money and it's more valuable because it's harder to find. It's much easier to find a wide receiver than it is a corner. There just aren't that many. Most teams don't have one good corner, right?

The teams that have two are like complete outliers in the national. Jets, yeah. So I hope he stays just at one. Now we'll see. I think, you know, Dion, who's essentially like feels like it's father constantly talks like he's going to do both ways like so he's not slowing it down and i do think dion speaks for travis a little bit and Travis hasn't walked away from it so i do think it's going to be

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He is a podcasting whiz. House of Strauss, to me, is my podcast list of choice, especially on long walks. I want to talk about the Warriors you covered for years. So I looked at Sportico had a list today of the five most valuable franchises in the United States. Three of them were NBA franchises, and one was the Warriors. Now, if I would have told you 20 years ago, it's going to go, cowboys and Golden State Warriors, you, anybody, would have thought, what the hell happened? They were a mess for 20 years.

I mean, I grew up with them with Rick Berry in the 70s. You know, they had some interesting teams, Tim Hardaway, but it was just kind of a dead brand, which the Yankees were, by the way, in the 80s, the Don Mattingly years. It was a dead brand. You can look back and there's a lot of people that can take credit. But I've thought about this.

The Lakers were very big pre-Lebron. and the Cowboys were big before DAC. And most of these organizations that are listed, the Celtics have been big since Bill Russell. Yeah. But you look at the Warriors, and as somebody that covered them, can you make an argument if they're an $8 billion franchise

that seven and a half of that have been driven by Steph Curry? I know it's the number with a B. I'll say that much about it, whatever it is. I feel like Logan Roy, the Logan Roy line where nobody wanted to watch the Warriors, but then we got Steph Curry and we got some draft picks and look at them. It's amazing how forgotten it is,

how irrelevant they were. And I remember being in those locker rooms where a tumbleweed could have blown through because there's no media at all. That's how I got to covering them, Colin, is that I was just blogging about them as a fan on a fan site, Warriors World back in the day. and I had other jobs that I was doing. And the guy running the blog said,

you know, we can get a credential. And I said, really? And it says, yeah, nobody's going to these games. Like, they're desperate for somebody to go to one of these games because they've got the beat writer and then they've got the other beat writer. Half the time, those two beat writers are talking to each other and they're saying, hey, if you don't show up to practice,

I won't show up to practice. And then we both get the day off. Like, that was happening back then. And nobody would show up to practice and get any kind of story. it's been driven by Steph. It's been driven by more than Steph. I'm a little bit defensive on behalf of your guy, Draymond Green's legacy.

I know he can annoy people, but I think because he annoys people, they start rewriting history. I see people say, oh my God, Drayman was drafted into the perfect situation. Nobody has been drafted into a more perfect situation. And I go,

when he showed up, there was no situation. There was no situation to speak. of nobody cared about this team, nobody cared about this franchise, nobody expected anything good on 2012 draft night. And that guy was a second round pick, no guaranteed spot, and he had to scrape, claw, wrenched jobs away from guys getting paid a lot more money with a lot more organizational investment. He became the best defensive player of his generation, which then merged with Steph Curry

being the best offensive player of his generation, and a lot of other things have gone right in between some other things going wrong. But it's a crazy, just miracle of a story. And yeah, I think you're right to hit on it that we almost take it for granted. We almost act as though this has always been a glamour franchise. They've always been here.

It was not that way. They were Clippers North. It was different. I think there's an argument to be made, and I haven't given it that much thought, that Steph Curry, more than any basketball player, football player, golfer, tennis player, or hockey player, changed his individual sport more. I don't think there's ever been a player in the, I mean, O'Tonnie's great, but we had Babe Ruth.

He pitched and batted too. You look at the great football players. Well, Mahomes was great. So was John Elway and Dan Marino and Brett Farve and, and, and, you know, and, you look at the great football players. And they're, I think you're, I mean, Philadelphia has the tush push. People are a little uncomfortable with it outside of Philadelphia. It's not changing football. It's just a really good fourth down play.

Steph Curry has changed every single level of basketball. Everything. He's changed. I mean, I just, I look at the shots being taken now. And like anything else, any cultural change is that at some point, they all go. South, like analytics for baseball. You're like, yeah, the game is more efficient. Oh, wait, now it's more boring. Oh, wait. Three-pointers, the math are better than two-pointers. Oh, wait, now it's boring. That's the way analytics all work is that these are TV products. And

initially, they make the game more efficient and they work on a volume scale, regular season. But ultimately, analytics don't generally work in any sport quite as effectively in post-season. and they generally aren't good for television. And so Steph now, there's a little bit of a, okay, we all fell in love with small ball and Steph, but now it's been copied so often, and people are doing at such a much more, a poorer level. They don't, I mean, Houston can't shoot.

And there, I mean, we got Wembe and guys shooting too many threes. Joel M. Beds never shot more threes. He shoots 29%. So, but I do think Steph, more than any athlete of my lifetime, literally changed. Muhammad Ali, personality-driven athlete. I think he was for a long time. Ali was what people looked at and went,

oh, my God, look how big you get if you let your personality out. But, I mean, that's just my take that Steph Curry is really one of one in a cultural, changing a sports aesthetic and style of play. You said a lot there. I love this topic. This is a great topic. I totally agree. And I think what's remarkable about Steph and we need to add it when we say nobody has changed their sport more.

When that happens, people can become a victim of their own influence. Mike Dan Tony revolutionizes basketball. But then he's almost a less, he's almost a less effective coach because all these other people learn how to do it. But maybe even refine it and maybe even do it better. and he gets overrun and he doesn't actually become a championship winning coach. The crazy thing about Steph is that he's been doing it for over 10 years

and he has revolutionized the NBA and he's still the best at doing it. He showed people the way it could be done. He gave them the recipe and he's still the best chef cooking it. I didn't mean to make a chef curry joke right there, but you see what I'm saying. That's unbelievable to do that,

to be so influential and yet remain the best at what you're doing. Now, the other part of it that you've said, the malign influence on the sport with analytics, the optimization problem, I think that's real. There are these strange things where sometimes we like something when one person does it, but we don't like when a bunch of other people are doing it. I felt that way about Zach Lowe's writing. Zach Lowe, probably the greatest NBA writer of all time. He had a very particular sort of style that was highly informational

and could be a little bit quirky but was fairly dry. But the way he did it was great. But so many younger writers coming up and bloggers coming up, they wanted to be like Zach Lowe, because Zach was the man. And I looked at what they were doing and I went, I don't know if I like you doing this. It doesn't work when you do it.

This isn't a recipe that works when somebody else does it. It would have been better if you went with something else. And maybe even a generation before that, Bill Simmons might have been that guy, where I loved Bill Simmons columns. But then I'm watching people try to be irreverent and funny in the way Bill did it. And it's just, this doesn't scale.

This isn't what I want. This isn't what I want. I just want Bill doing it. That's what it feels a little bit like right now in the NBA, where a lot of people loved watching those warriors in 2015, 2016. not everybody loved watching these teams that emulated the three-point shooting

as optimization takes over and now most of the shots are going to be three-pointers. You know what I thought was really interesting because I thought Caitlin Clark, I was really disappointed in the WNBA is that I thought Caitlin Clark's appeal was very simple. Holy shit, we found a female Steph Curry.

She's taking shots women don't take. I didn't think there was anything to it. And then all of a sudden, and she has this Angel Reese, you know, competition in college like Magic and Bird, it pivots to the professional league, and it's fascinating. And Angel Reese, I think her success helps Caitlin Clark. I think it feels Bird Magic, although I don't think Angel is close to Kalen as an influencer. Bird and Magic both had.

They kind of ended up in the perfect cities. bird in kind of tough guy Boston and magic and, you know, showy Los Angeles. But it was funny because with male sports, I feel sometimes, I feel bad for Caitlin Clark in the WNBA that people are trying to explain her popularity. Nobody ever had to explain Steph Curry. It was just, did he just shoot from 34 feet off balance and make three in a row? And there's part of me that feels sympathetic to the WNBA and part of me that doesn't. First of all, I feel like when you're young, when Bryce Harper came into baseball,

he went through an Andy Dufrain tunnel for about three years because he was flashy, right? And baseball doesn't like flashy. So Caitlin's not the first athlete to deal with this. Tiger Woods had the deal with a lot of comments and a lot of traditionalists pushing back. and the network only shows type. So Caitlin's not the first to go through it. But I do think the WNBA has gotten to a point where I want to say, girls, girls, she's the female staff. Just embrace the hell out of her.

You're getting on private jets. So I tried to be, I tried to defend the WNBA initially. But how does that land for you? Because I think they've gotten to a point where I'm finding it hard now. Yeah. Like, if the chippy play continues, you may just lose me as a viewer. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, it reminds me if they say about academia that the fights are so vicious because the stakes are so small. And the WMBA, there wasn't money to be made. And so attention is the money. And suddenly this player comes in and is getting all the attention. And this is the primary thing that you care about if you're not getting any sort of pay in accordance with what you think your value is. And there was a ton of resentment towards her.

And a lot of people in that league seem to get caught up on this whole versus is problem. You know, there are people that can really grapple with what is. And there are people who get really stuck on how it ought to be. And they're just fixated on it. It ought to be. It ought to be.

Asia Wilson ought to be a huge superstar. Asia Wilson ought to be the person Nike is promoting because she's the best player in the league. and she is the best player in the league. But that's just not what it is. People are interested in Caitlin Clark. They like watching Caitlin Clark, Asia Wilson's game. It's more analogous to a Tim Duncan.

People are not as interested in that. You can say there's a racial element of that. Okay, I don't know what to do with that. We can't just replace Caitlin Clark with somebody else. She's the person who showed up for this particular job of being Caitlin Clark. She's the one who's resonating. And we can either benefit from, what it is, or we can tear apart everybody who's into it and make everybody feel bad about it and

try to stop it from happening. That latter move seems completely insane to me, and yet it's entirely infected a lot of the coverage of the WMBA from people who support the league, at least support it, you know, in quotations, because they're not helping it when they go about it that way. And even the, you know, Time magazine and even some of these publications that covered, it's like they're scared. They're worried if they're not giving enough attention to the other players. Look at the history of basketball. Kareem, Yonis, Yokic did not move the ratings needle. Yeah. Steph, Michael, smaller players did. This is the history of basketball, is that my son's not a sports fan. He likes Steph Curry because he feels like, oh, I could do that. I'm not that

huge. Steve Nash had a wildly entertaining game. He wasn't a dunk machine. I didn't think as a kid growing up, Bob Lanier was fascinating. His game didn't work for me. So the truth is basketball's history, the WNBA should take a deep breath and realize basketball's history is best score. Alex English led the 80s in scoring in the NBA. Alex English. There have been so many players, Kiki Van der Wae. I don't remember a basket. He just never missed. But there are players that are just, Ant is dynamic and fascinating.

Kobe was fascinating. But a lot of the bigs, and that's something we just have to be honest about. Russell Westbrook's game, I've said this before, in his prime, I'd have paid to watch him play. He couldn't shoot.

I didn't love his handles, but sweet mother of vertical jump. The guy was like, it was popcorn in a hot skillet. He was flying through the air. So, the NBA is so caught up on, well, she's the leading score.

People like different. And no other woman shot 33 footers. It's that simple. Yeah, they like what they like. Not even Logan Roy could make Asia Wilson the biggest sneaker saleswoman in basketball. And it's no detraction from her game. She's excellent.

But she's somebody especially in the Times story when she did an event with the 2K video game, who's just complaining about the lack of attention she's gotten and how it's not in accordance and it's not at the level it should be at. And it's, look, life to a certain degree is not fair. And that's actually what makes basketball sort of fascinating to me. That's why I wrote the Steph Curry article in 2016.

There's this ineffable charisma of stardom, of superstardom, that you just know it when you see it. and we're not always sure about all the elements you need for it to happen and for you to really pop in the way that Michael Jordan did, in the way that Alan Iverson did in a totally different way, in the way that Steph Curry did. And the people who do it are worth billions of dollars to the league and to these sneaker companies. And then there are players who are effectively at the same tier or level that just can't and just don't. And there's just something human about it.

and it just is what it is, and you're just going to make yourself miserable trying to figure out how it ought to be and change reality. Ethan Strauss, his podcast is House of Strauss. He's got a wide variety of guests. He is a podcaster with dexterity. He can talk business. He can talk sports. He can talk media. You and Glass Spiegel get all, you know, it's one of my favorite you guys get into the weeds on stuff, which I'm completely fascinated by.

and you do all this amazing homework, and I just want you to know, I don't know the download numbers, but all that wonky media stuff for a guy that's been in it probably too long, I find fascinating, buddy. Oh, I really appreciate that, and thanks so much for all the kind words,

and this has been fantastic. Thanks so much, Colin. Hey, guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick, and guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas.

We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know, tired and sick. Tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman helped make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, in every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline.

And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance. I've ever reported on, a Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman. Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last?

Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.