The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts -  Mike Silver on Payton's Russ Problem, Rodgers/Jets Fit, Nick Wright on Mahomes Dominance, Broadcasting Lessons, LeBron Fatigue

Episode Date: February 4, 2023

This is Prime Cuts! The best of The Colin Cowherd Podcast. First, Colin’s top takes, including why Sean Payton couldn't pass up the Broncos job, and his candid discussions with Payton about the pros and cons in Denver. Also, Colin's theory on why Tony Romo's performance in the booth has declined to the point CBS reportedly needed to have an intervention. Then, longtime NFL writer - and host of the Open Mike podcast - Mike Silver on the Sean Payton hiring, how Payton will attempt to turn around Russell Wilson, and the most likely landing spot for Aaron Rodgers. Then, First Things First co-host - and host of the What's Wright? podcast - Nick Wright on why Andy Reid continues ascending when Bill Belichick is declining, why Nick was cut from the Syracuse college radio station play-by-play team, how they both adapted as sports opinion broadcasting evolved, what separates Patrick Mahomes from all other NFL QB's, where Aaron Rodgers ends up next season if the Packers move on, and why the public seems so nonplussed over LeBron breaking Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s all-time scoring record. Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the test content and updates, and check out FanDuel for the best wagering and daily fantasy action! #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Same game parlays are my favorite. Just use the promo code Colin and download the Fandul app today. Fandul now live in Ohio. All right. Sean Payton headed to the Denver Broncos. So this has been a long back and forth between Sean Payton and Denver. So I talked to Sean after he was on my show yesterday. So usually I talked to Sean for about five or six minutes.

when he's off FS1 with me, and we've been talking about this, private conversations about where he's going, where he's not. And so I went to dinner with Sean, spent about four and a half hours with him a couple weeks ago. He very much liked the Broncos ownership. His concerns were lack of cap flexibility. And Russell Wilson's process, a little disconnected from younger players. He was concerned about it.

I shared that with you. When you get into a situation like this, these new owners were going to reset the coaching salary market. So Sean Payton liked Fox. Sean Payton would have stayed at Fox. And Sean and I talked a lot about this. In fact, we talked about this after the show Monday. The things he worried about were always the same.

Cap flexibility. And let's get Russell Wilson to get back to playing Russell Wilson. which is almost basketball style quarterback. Move the pocket, move a lot, instinctive. He's one of the better guys that we've ever seen do that, right? So I'm not going to go into the Adam Schaefter Ian Rappaport space. They're going back and forth on whose job this was and whose job it wasn't. I was told very early that Denver really liked Sean.

And it was Sean's job to lose. Now, money is a big component to any great job. The more risk, the more money any coach would want. I do not think, and I said this before, I think you need an offensive coach in Denver. I don't think Tomiko Ryan's as talented as he is. You've got to figure out the Russell Wilson piece. I thought Harbaugh was a good fit, and I thought Sean Payton was a good fit. I thought you needed after Hackett a proven commodity at head coach.

an offensive commodity at head coach. So Harbaugh and Peyton were really good choices. So, you know, when I had talked to Sean over the course of the last several weeks, he was always interested, always thought it was great, but there are gambles here. It's not simple. Everybody in the internet wants to make everything simple. Let me tell you something. When you start talking about the salary involved here and the components in place, it's complicated. Big time agents, billionaire owners, Sean Payton's, high. High profile, he had a lot of leverage. I love Jim Harbaugh, but he's a lot and wants a lot of control.

And Sean doesn't necessarily need that personnel control. With like an opinion, doesn't need as much control. So what I was told is the Bronco owners like that very much. But jobs like this are complicated. Initially, I thought it was Sean's. And I do think Denver's job, when you consider all the other openings, is the best because of good roster and key spots. And Russell Wilson's talented.

You know, Carolina, I think that's an interesting job. But it's hard to find quarterbacks. College football only gives you about one to two a year. So Carolina's job has a chance to be great. But what if they don't land Derek Carr or Garoppolo? And they miss on their next two quarterback draft picks. I mean, Arizona missed on one, went on another, thought they got a hit with Kyler Murray. Now, they may have a miss. He won't be available this year

for much of it. And he's struggling to get along with people. So this was always really complicated. But what I talked to Sean after Monday show, in fact, he had just changed his avatar to Fox Sports. It wasn't that. It was a coaching avatar. He just changed it to a broadcasting avatar. And now he's taking the Broncos job. This went back and forth. In fact, one of the tells with this is the Jim Harbaugh resurfacing rumors. Well, what does that tell you? It tells you that they wanted Sean Payton. They weren't agreeing on the number. And so suddenly, stories get out when somebody wants them out.

Harbaugh's name surfaces to negotiating ploy. In the end, there were two coaches where this can work, Harbaugh and Sean Payton. There's a lot of things I like about it. There are other reasons where it's not. an easy job. If this was an easy job, Sean Payton would have taken this thing three weeks ago. It's not. The Russell piece is going to take work. The offensive line needs fixing. Lack of cap flexibility, you got a hit on several draft picks and they just gave up several to the saints to get Sean Payton. So it's complicated. But this stuff goes back and forth all the time. I had been in contact with people upstairs at my company with Sean Payton. It was a very respectful conversation. I thought Sean did a great job to keep me in the loop on it. And I congratulate, I think it was Schefter that broke the story.

Good for him. That's what he does and does well. You know, I guess apparently I haven't followed it, but Ian Rappaport and Schefter have a disagreement on social media about who was a lead candidate, who wasn't a lead candidate. I don't think this job is a good job for a first-time head coach on the defensive side of the ball. I don't. I think it's going to be a lot of work to get this right.

Also, something Sean and I talked about at dinner. You know, Sean's a smart guy. He thought about everything. And he said, listen, Mahomes twice a year and Herbert twice a year. What if Brady goes to the Raiders twice a year? I mean, there's a lot of things at play here. It was never easy. It went back and forth.

Teams leak this and coaches, agents leak this. And that's the game. We've been talking about this. There were a bunch of job openings. And about four or five days ago, we were all saying, why aren't they getting filled? Because I believe everybody was waiting for Sean Payton. Then Sean gave Carolina kind of the word, I'm not taking that job. So they go to Frank Reich. He interviewed with Arizona. He interviewed with Houston. And he told me about all these,

or at least the Houston one. We went into some detail on that. It's private. I'm not getting into it. It was unique. But this is not simple. The division's tough. Mahomes is amazing. Herbert now has. as a really good offensive coordinator. I think in Kellynne Moore, I don't think winning is going to be easy. But I think in the end, the Broncos had to hit a number for Sean to take the job. And Sean loved working at Fox.

Loved it. When I talked to him after the show, I thought he was going to stay at Fox. Then all of a sudden, you get hard boss stuff out there. It's fascinating, though, isn't it? Sean Payton's just too good, not to be coaching. I don't think I've ever learned more from a guest than what I've learned from

Sean Payton. And all the years I've been doing this, 25, 30 years, I don't think I've ever learned more. There are so many parts to coaching. Some of it's not even personnel and play calling and scheming. There's a lot of personalities you have to deal with. And he had such a good fit with Gail Benson and Mickey Loomis and Jeff Ireland with the Saints, that it's going to be virtually impossible to recreate that in Denver. But what Sean wants to make sure of is, okay, this is not going to be easy,

and this is very important. This is not going to be easy. You have to commit to me. You have to commit long-term, resources, what you pay me, why? It's much easier to move off a coach. Cliff Kingsbury, salary's smaller. You got this quarterback. He's young in his prime.

Russell's not in his prime. Didn't look like he's in his prime. You can't move him for about three years minimum. So it's going to take a lot of work. It's not easy. There are things, though, about this job that are, you know, listen, that are really, that sound great. A young running back,

who can be a star, left tackle, nice receivers, capable tight ends, really, really high-end corners. This is not a rebuild. Got to fix the offensive line and you got to make Russell Wilson work, but it's not a rebuild. There was also, I'll be interested to hear about the staff, the defensive coordinator, the offensive coordinator. Sean and I have discussed that at length. I'm going to let that come out over the next probably 72 hours. There's a couple of names out there that have been connected to jobs but are not official. This could end up being a really, really strong staff.

I'll leave it at that. But I'm happy for him. Smart guy. The league is pivoted to offense. This was a job for an offense. defensive head coach. Absolutely. Harbond, Peyton. It will be a lift. Some really good pieces. But, you know, Russell is a unique personality. A lot of people took shots at him. When he left Seattle, you don't see a lot of that with star quarterbacks. And then he played a little better at the

end of the year when Hackett was gone. That's encouraging. Jerry Judy, I think it was, stuck up for him in the Denver locker room, that was encouraging. So I can't wait to watch it. I'm not sure what it's going to look like. And that's, to me, the best stories. I'm not exactly sure what it's going to look like. I think suddenly, unless Aaron Rogers goes to the Jets, Denver will be the most interesting team in the NFL this year. Now, if Aaron goes to the Jets, that's going to be fascinating. But Russell, Wilson and Sean Payton. Because, you know, Sean Payton has definitive views on how to run a football operation.

And Russell Wilson, going to have to make some changes. How easily does he make those changes? I'm not sure. So I saw this story today. And it's a story that's been simmering and been discussed a lot in the last two weeks on the interweb. And it doesn't really mean anything because Tony Romo makes seven. million a year guaranteed. But Andrew Marshan on his podcast, a New York Post radio TV critic, media critic, had said that CBS was getting concerned about Tony Romo's sort of unconventional style,

undisciplined style. And there's been slippage with Tony Romo. My takeaway was for no other reason than, because I don't talk a lot of media, but I've been doing this for 30 years. And I thought, this is an interesting thing, I think, for the audience. It's kind of instructive. So when you get out of the NFL or NBA or any sport, but let's talk NFL on Tony Romo, who I think does a fine job. I've never already bought into the hype. I thought predicting plays was kind of silly and overrated.

It doesn't mean anything. The media freaked out. I don't care. That's not why I watch you to predict plays. I look for insight that I wouldn't get. Interviews, I wouldn't get information. I wouldn't get elsewhere. And that's why I think Greg Olson, by the way, is crushing at Fox.

So when you first get out of the league, your first year or two, you're generally the most familiar with the league. But the NFL, two things are happening. Number one, there's younger general managers in the NFL. And they are trading players without a concern. And if you look at the average NFL career, which is about four years, the league turns over about every. three to four years. So a guy like Romo can come out of football, have a real understanding of the personnel,

the rosters, the coordinators, and then all of a sudden some of those coordinators leave, go to different places, go to college football, the rosters turn over three or four years later, and you really have to do your homework. And the knock on Romo,

and I'll get to this more in a second, is that he doesn't, really put the time in. So networks get really, really frustrated when they pay you a fortune, they put you on their number one event and you're not prepared. So Romo makes $17 million a year. That's been reported. And if you consider that Jim Nance talks for more than half of the broadcast, sideline reports, commercials, the game itself, we're almost probably talking for 25 minutes, once a week, they want you to be really, really dialed in for that 25 minutes. I'm on the air 15 hours a week, ad-libbing with no game, just talking.

You're going to make mistakes. Charles Barkley, by the way, doesn't follow half the league. When the Lakers made a acquisition or a trade recently for a wing from the Wizards, Shaq had never heard of him. He covers the NBA. So, Shaq, Barclay, television's entertainment. Harry Carey was a legend. He was drunk on the air at various times.

But football is different. You get 20 million viewers. It really is the most important broadcast singular three and a half hours weekly for networks. And if they're paying you $17 million and you're talking about 20 minutes a week, they want you to be dialed in. I always had this theory that, and I used. use this for years. When I would interview people and I was going to hire them, if I had lunch or coffee with them, I always asked them if they loved golf. Oh, I love golf. Do you love golf? And if they said yes, I wouldn't hire them. Because I always had this theory that as

guys age, many of them get addicted to golf. They're on PGATour.com. They're putting in the backyard. They're thinking about it at work. They're scheduling a trip to Scotland. And they lose sight of their other job. Romo wants to be on the tour. He literally wants to be on the tour. I mean, what's the first thing Aaron Rogers does in the offseason? He goes in golfs. He loves it. Both, by the way, great golfers, especially Romo. But I've always felt like Tony Romo is one of those guys, and we all have somebody in our social circle like this. They got the golf bug. He's had it for 15 years. Tony wants to be on the PGA tour, but he likes the paycheck of CBS. And I don't think he does a bad job. I think he's fine. I think initially Romo was overvalued with predicting plays.

That's not why, you know, I mean, if you did it once in a while, it'd be great, but that's not why I'm watching you. But when you're only talking about 20 minutes a week on the biggest broadcast for a network where they pay billions of dollars annually, they want you to be dialed in. And I'm never going to criticize somebody because they slip a word up or, you know, mispronounce a name. Live TV is really easy for people who've never done it. Romo and Jim Nance have producers in their ears and directors in their ears and they've got action and they've got ads to read. It's not easy. But when I listen to Greg Olson, he sounds like he's been studying for that three hours for six days. Romo sounds like sometimes and he's entertaining. He's winging it. And again, I think Barclay and Shaq wing it. But the NFL is different. And people love Barkley and Shaq. But it's the NBA.

There's 82 games. It just doesn't matter. They're on the air for hours every week. Nobody's losing any sleep if they don't know something. I mean, again, they make fun of Barclay not knowing players in the NBA. But those NFL windows, man, those analyst jobs, those networks don't want to pay those guys $17 million a year. So they sit there with a microscope and you make a mistake or they think you're not putting in the work. They're going to leak stuff.

This stuff gets out, by the way, Marshand said CBS attempted an intervention. That only gets out because CBS wants it out. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Romo's agent calls CBS and asks for CBS to release a statement denying the report. Wouldn't shock me. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only. legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque.

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for confidential help in Michigan, 1877 H-O-P-E-N-Y, or text H-O-P-E-N-Y-46-9-N-Y-N-Y-N-Y-N-Y-N-N-E-R-N-E-ROTN-N-E-ROTE. Visit 1-800-Gambler. All right, we bring in Mike Silver, host of open mic on the volume, long-time, well-sourced, hyper-connected NFL rider. So, you know, Mike, I spent five hours one night with Sean Payton a couple weeks ago. and you and I, you're a real reporter. I occasionally have relationships,

but I'm not in the story breaking business. It's what you do and do it very, very well. But we sat down and, you know, Sean and I talked about everything. The Russell Wilson piece, the owner piece, the Mahalms Herbert four times a year piece. And the Harbaugh piece. And in our relationships with coaches, I always feel like a responsibility to tell the audience,

as much as I can, and I will hear. Not everything. There are some things I want to protect my relationship with Sean. I don't want to get into the whizzing match between Ian Rappaport and Adam Schaefter, but I felt when I had dinner with Sean very strongly that he was the coach, that he knew there were obstacles. And I felt, but this is my time. takeaway that you're going to have to pay for Sean because this job is not easy. There's some good stuff. It's not a rebuild. But the Russell Wilson thing is real.

Is that how you view this situation that the price point? I mean, that's why I talked to Sean Monday after my show. I thought he was a Fox employee. I think this thing came down to Denver making a financial commitment to Sean, letting him know, hey, we know it's not easy. We're going to take the pay scale to a different level. Is that your interpretation? Well, I think there's a couple of things. First of all, it's a leap of faith on both sides. For whoever was going to take that job, you've got at least a year with Russell Wilson, and you pray it doesn't look like it did this last year, possibly

two years, because it really does impact your cap. You've lost a lot of draft capital. because of that trade as well. And you are in that division with Bohemps and Herbert. And, you know, that's kind of a, you know, something that would give a candidate with options pause, even possibly Domingo Ryans. He may have had his other reasons for wanting Houston, or he may have had the choice made for him

and just read the tea leaves. But that was one of the ones. thing. If you're looking to hire Sean Payton, you know the price tag is high. You have to give up draft capital. That's especially sensitive if you're the Broncos because you just gave up all that traffic capital for Russell. You got the one back for Chubb. You're giving that away now. If you're the Texans, you can say, yeah, we've got draft capital. We got all that Deshaun Watson loot. But you are necessarily, you know, weakening your So you're giving up draft capital.

You're giving up money. Now, that was a strength of the Broncos job. They do have lots of money. They do have the Brussels issue. You know, George Payton is a very, very well-like GM. I think if Sean was going to come in somewhere and turn the GM into essentially a director of player personnel. You know, George is someone that you could see that relationship working out, at least in the short term. he's super well liked

he goes with the flow but you know my read on the Broncos from afar is that they knew that Sean was expensive both in terms of draft capital and money

and they knew that he came in with a little swag he wasn't kits in the ring of the Walmart and oh wow I just want to you know he's basically saying you should hire me because I'm awesome um so

you also had to go down parallel paths before you decided whether you were going to do that. And it just seemed to be that at least the public facing side of it, remember, these are the richest people, you know, there are and they're not used to really being criticized, like, say, NFL owners normally get criticized. And people are looking at it going, well, you asked Harbaugh, he said no, you flew off to see him again. he still said no. Dan Quinn dropped out

and D'Amico Ryan's chose the Texans over you. So whether that's an accurate assessment because I think there were a lot of moving parts. Also, by the way, someone leaked that David Shaw was the favorite. So now it really looks like four different people that you either couldn't get or didn't want. And now you're like, well, how are we going to not look like these, you know, bumbling billionaires?

What are we going to do? Let's swing big, baby, because money is a strength. And, you know, them paying Sean Payton, whatever they paid, Sean Payton is like you and I, you know, exchanging a burger, basically. Well, and here's the thing. There are parts of the job that are really good. Like in the NFL, you've got a talented quarterback, a starting left tackle, pretty good perimeter weapons, a young running back who was hurt but people really like some of the best corners in the sport

and you've got some defensive personnel that can, you know, that can move around. You also, it's a big brand. And you can, as you know, you can get draft capital pretty quickly, move people here or there. You can, but I said this in my 10 minute

ramble before you. If this was an easy job, Sean would have taken it a month ago or three weeks. weeks ago. I think the Russell piece scares people. But I also think there's a part of Sean. Like, okay, so I used this when the four ionnaires traded for Christian McCaffrey, I had to write a column immediately for the Chronicle. And I led with something of the effect of this was a move based on or born of arrogance. And I say that lovingly, by the way, as a fellow Eric.

Well, that was a great column. I read that. That was a great call. But I mean, like, I know what it's like. I believe in my abilities, you know, probably to a ridiculous degree at times. And if you're Kyle Shanahan, you're like, oh, man, I know it costs a lot. But if I get Christian McCaffrey and I put him in my offense and I, like, it's going to be insane. So you, I think you want your coach to have that streak. So look, I've known Sean Payton since the early days.

and I love him. And one reason I do is because he believes that Sean Payton is really, really good at this. So in a way, I think you're like, yeah, I can do that. And by the way, like, there might be more attractiveness because everyone thinks it's a bad job and everyone thinks Russell can't be salvaged. And if you struggle at first, people might give you a little bit of a leeway there.

But if you don't, and you come in and, you know, make the playoffs next year, people are going to go, Sean Payton, man, look what he did. You know, and Doug Peterson just kind of did it. He had an easy division. But, you know, Sean Peyton is one of the absolute best of the world at what he does, and he knows it. And his knowledge of that is part of what makes him who he is.

And that's what you're paying. Yeah. And I felt, I said this early, that I thought this was a job for an offensive coach. an example. I think Brian Flores is kind of a fascinating hire in Arizona. Special teams' defense in Miami

got good in a week and he's an ass kicker. He won't take, he's an alpha. He won't take any of Kyler stuff. Right. But Mike and I've been on this for a year and it's tedious to the audience, but the league is changing.

Belichick's struggling now. Andy Reid is, the new Belichick. And this job, the defense is so talented, you can get a good coordinator. I think you got to massage the Russell piece. I think it needed, and this is not a shot at Damiko, I think it needed a veteran offensive coach who has dealt with drama with quarterbacks, with coordinators. This is a solvable job, but Mike, it's a hard job, right?

Yeah, and going back to the Flores thing, okay, so first of all, you and I have talked about this publicly and privately. Brian Flores did not get fired because he was not doing a good job as a coach. He got fired because of interpersonal abrasiveness, really, and he was not getting along with a lot of people, including first and foremost his incumbent quarterback, who we saw with a little love this year. And yeah, ecumenic brilliance was a lot different. So I'm a little scared when you say that. I get why, and look, first of all, I want Brian Flores to get another job at some point. I do believe there's systemic racism and hiring practices.

And, you know, he had the guts to, you know, sue. And I hope that that is not factoring into whether he gets another job. I'd be happy for him. On the other hand, man, you, it's the same thing. It's like the Broncos can't just say we goofed on Russell goodbye. yet at least. The Cardinals can't do that with Kyler. And given Brian Flores track record with Tua, like, I agree, you want to draw the line and start changing the paradigm. And by the way, Sean Payton's going to do the same thing with Russell. John's going to be like, hey, Russ,

that six-person team that follows you around the facility, they're gone, buddy. And you know how you have a bigger office than I do? Let's either switch or I'm giving that office to, you know, whoever. So that's going to happen. But I mean, I think Sean has great people skills and we'll get that done. And Russell will have, you know, the emotional intelligence to take it in the spirit it's intended. If Brian Flores comes in and starts, you know, treating Kyler like dirt, that look, you paid Kyler. You tried to put a clause in his contract that made him look like a 12-year-old and then actually backed off even worse. You acknowledge that he doesn't study enough in your eyes.

Then it looked terrible because you tried to put it in the contract. And then you're like, fine, fine. Don't even study. But here's all the money. He's injured. And speed is part of what makes him great. And, you know, now you're going to bring in someone who's like, hey, Kyler, man, we don't like your act at all.

And you either get with it or, that might not be the best thing organizationally either. I think the Cardinals have to treat Kyler, unfortunately for them, the way the Broncos have to treat Russell right now. Make it work in the short term. And if you're Sean Payton, you have the credibility to get Russell to buy in. If you are Brian Flores and Kyler's not Russell either, I think that scares me a little bit.

And again, I'm not saying Brian Flores is a really good head coach. Hope he gets another job. He'll deserve it. That particular one. one scares a little. So one of the things that is a reality, and I've pushed against, and maybe because I haven't been offered this level of money, but sometimes you just get offered money you can't say no to.

And we've seen coaches take jobs, and I've seen actors do movies. I'm like, this is absurd. What are you? And then you see the price tag. And you're like, okay, I get it. I understand it. So I believe that what the Broncos paid Sean Payton, and this is why Harbaugh came in again. I think Sean liked working in television and new next year.

you've got two great college quarterbacks who are both guys that can start. I think in the end, and it won't come out maybe for a while, could this just have been, you know, 25 million a year? I'll figure it out, right? I mean, you know, there's always a number for sure. And yeah, I mean, I don't know exactly how it played out again, because we saw the public facing part of it. And the owners, the new owners were looking like amateurs.

They have some, it's a less attractive job in some ways, along with the fact that it gets even less attractive if you have to give up a one and a two when you're already strapped to hire this specific person. What is their strength that they could offer? We are so rich that when you hear numbers like that, what we hear is, yeah, I'll take fries with that, go back to my burger analogy. I mean, it's just not the way that, you know, a normal human would think of it. Now, we saw Tepper do that in North Carolina and, you know, that ruffled the feathers of the billionaires club.

He was joining, whatever. But I think the problem is that he did it with Matt Ruhl, who, it turned out, was not a, you know, a guy who could come into the NFL, snap his fingers, and make it awesome. But Sean Payton's as close to that as what we have. Right. He's as close to, you could put him in an NFL context and have a very strong belief that he's going to succeed. Danny Aange made a career.

Boston and now Utah Jazz finding desperate people. The KG to the Brooklyn deal. the Rudy Gobert to the T-Wolfs deal, which got like nine different pieces. Belichick in his prime made a lot of deals with the Browns and the poorly run bills and dolphins

who aren't poorly run anymore. Right. Is that, like they always say, the best hitters in baseball get a majority of their hits up the three and four starters, not the aces, right? And so

I don't know if Aaron Rogers is a great fit with the jets, but well-run organizations have a history of finding desperate trading partners. And I look at the very stable Packers with Aaron Rogers. Robert Sala's got a win. Joe Douglas got a win. The owners have a history of reaching. And I look at that and I think...

Nathaniel Hackett needs to rebuild his reputation with the guy who helped him get there. I that's where Aaron to the Jets a stable organization that's ready to move off I can ship him over there it does feel like

you could get the I mean listen they've got some good young players for the Jets they need the left tackle in a quarterback I can see him saying here's a one a two and a one and Green Bay going that's where that one feels

kind of possible and I could I could see all that and I could see Aaron going, I like the Niners. So I'm sorry that you won't be getting the one two and a one, but I will retire if you do that stupid trade. But if you trade me to the Niners for, hold on,

let me text John Lynch, a three. And a conditional two if I, you know, whatever. I will make the money right and you'll be able to move on rebuild. But yeah, I know you're right. So that's what's always fascinating. You know, fans understandably live in this fantasy football like reality where it's like, why can't we just do that? We'll trade this for this.

Or, you know, it's like Derek Carr, well, you know, they're not going to send them there. Why would they cut them? And we always forget that, you know, the money and the cap and the players' other leverage points, like, I don't like you or I don't want to play for you, especially when they're old enough to walk away. You know, those are going to factor into. And as you know, Colin, these conversations are all going on unofficially. You know, there's players are figuring out their markets. teams are figuring out what's possible. Agents and coaches and general managers and players are all having conversations that will

coalesce at the combine, if not before, when everyone's in person and drinking and there'll be media people involved as well. Not too many of us, a lot of people who act like they will, but a few of us will actually be in those rooms and, you know, we might be drinking too. Yeah. So I just think it's something, you know, Aaron, I don't think Aaron wants to retire, but when you start talking about it, you're at least considering it. I do think Aaron wants to take that last $100 million. And he's still really, really good. I know he still is. I contend that Titans make sense because he's never had a consistent great defense and a great consistent run game. And he'd have both in a

wonky division. Do you buy the Titans in Aaron at all? I think he liked, I think Vrable's his kind of guy. In a way, yeah. I can see that one going either way. Yeah. I mean, look, like, you know, if Aaron Rogers plays like he did in 2021 and 2020, man, Bill Belichick would be like, hey, you know that, you know that podcast you do every week with Pat McAfee where you just say whatever you want. put a lot of pressure on the organization. Yeah, but, you know, it's okay.

I just keep doing it because you're so good. But if you're playing like Aaron Rogers of 2022, I think Mike Vrable and a lot of other coaches would be like, yo, yo, yo, yo. Like, not like what he says on a podcast. It's not big a deal. It's just an example. But I think, you know, Aaron is,

Aaron's going to be high maintenance. Tom in many ways is going to be high maintenance. And I think, again, people with strong senses of self attract each other. So you would say on paper, with Kyle Shanahan who wants everything to be done his way and Tom Brady, who likes a lot of control of the line, or Aaron Rogers who likes full control at the line, possibly be able to coexist. They're philosophically so unaligned in terms of how they view the way the offense should conduct itself. I feel like Kyle Shanahan gets in a room with one of those guys and they're

both like, dude, you are so amazing to play quarterback. Dude, I love the way you call a game. Like, we'll figure it out. And sometimes that ends up being hard and sometimes it does it. But I think people with a lot of faith in their own abilities are more likely to embrace challenges that other people would go, whoa, that's too much. And they're more likely to. to want to do it together because they, you know, they view themselves as rare and they're attracted. Yeah. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged.

It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits,

the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, the Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations

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stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes,

follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. When I started in this business, opinion was rare. When I first started in this business, there was no national sports talk radio. Rome was the first to make it. And then now it's exploded. Opinion now dominates cable TV.

Opinion is where the money is. I was a local sportscaster. And I had a fine career as a local sportscaster. But when opinion became more influential driving revenue and ratings, my career exploded. I didn't get more talented. I got more opportunities. So Andy Reid entered this league when you could grab his receivers.

His receivers could be crushed over the middle of the field. You could drive his quarterbacks into the turf. They were always hurt. And then it changed. Then the league, due to safety, CTE, safety regulations, has now given all the rules not to Belichick side, to Andy's side. And that Andy was always. always as good or better than Belichick.

But his industry was built against him. And now finally there's even footing or advantage Andy. And he is separating from Belichick. Well, listen, I do think that where I'll give Belichick credit is, I do think he has a better grasp on the coaching minutiae that drives me nuts, the clock management, the challenge stuff in a way that. he still struggles with at times, but holistically, I think it's 100% correct. And I had, on Thursday, I had Mahomes on the TV show.

And I kept every time I talked about the chiefs being disrespected, the chief Super Bowl window, any of these things. And listen, he's a brand and he knows, you know, how to handle himself. His love for Andy Reid popped off the screen. He said when I asked him, did it seem like the national media was ready to turn the page from the chiefs and love the bills or the bangles or the chargers prematurely? What he said was, I think as long as we have Andy Reid, we should be the favorites like that. And so he, that relationship there, Andy's by the way, not a young man anymore. Right.

And no one, our mutual friend Danny Parkins made this point. I think it was smart. He said no one is discussing. is Andy Reid retiring if they win this Super Bowl. He's obviously dealt with personal tragedy. He's done it. He's a Hall of Fame or all these things. And what Danny's point was is, and it's because everyone's like,

why would he retire? He is Patrick Mahomes. They're going to continue to dominate. He can climb. He's three wins away, Colin, from being fourth all time in regular season wins. He's already now second all time in playoff wins. He's going to have a claim. as the second greatest coach of this era of football.

I think he already has that claim. And I think your point is, what if the chiefs win three of the next five and then he walks out the door, can you make the case? He's the best. Like, it's going to be interesting. It's at least going to be on the board.

If he ends with four and Belichick has six, but especially if, the Patriots never pop back up. Because I know what people, people can say, well, Andy Edma Holmes. Yes. But Andy made five conference championship games in Philadelphia without a Hall of Fame quarterback. With a good quarterback. Without an accurate quarterback.

Correct. Yeah. I mean, McNabb was not a bad quarterback, but he was not a Hall of Fame level player. Right. And he made five NFC championship games there. It might have been six. I think it's fine. But it is interesting is that sometimes cultures change and opportunities present themselves.

And people don't suddenly just get talented at 50. Let's be honest. You flourish in the opinion space. You probably wouldn't be as effective as a local sports anchor. I got caught from the Syracuse College radio station trying to do play-by-party. play because I couldn't the the at W AER that before you can even try to do play by play, you have to do a 90 second sports update like you know what they used to do on local radio stations.

Yeah. Yeah. Colin, I came in twice a week. 90 minutes each time for three semesters a year and a half trying to get cleared to do 90 second sports updates at a college radio station. And then, God love him, the guy who's now the voice of the Las Vegas Raiders, Jason Horowitz, had to call me and was like, buddy, you're a second semester sophomore and you're not even to the first step.

We got to, you got to go. You're not, I got cut from my college radio station. Were you crushed? Oh, I was, I mean, it's the whole reason I went there. It's the whole reason I went there. But I was fortunate in that I was already working on the talk show staff. And I then just grabbed, and I was kind of realizing like, man, I thought I wanted to do, growing up, I thought I wanted to do play by play.

But what I wanted to do was color commentary. I would watch the NBA on NBC with, with Costas and Walton and Steve Snapper Jones. And what I wanted to do was the color. But I didn't realize you can't do that unless you're a former player or former coach. They're not hired me to do color commentary. But then, you know, they did hire Dennis Miller briefly. like they hired Hornheiser. So I was like, oh, maybe at some point.

So no, I was, I was crushed. But it made me fully pivot to talk show. And, you know, a little humble brag here. Now at WAR, the talk show studio is named after me and my pictures on the wall. I'm a Hall of Famer there. That's true story. Marve Albert, Bob Costas, Nick Wright are the three studios there. That's true.

And so, but the point is, I'm not a great broadcaster. I have a like a traditional broadcaster. You know what I mean? I can't read off a teleprompter. I'm not good at, like I have a nasal. But there is a specific thing I can do, which is confidently argue, no matter, whether it's, you know, one on one with my wife or in front of a million people. Well, also, you're entertaining.

in my preamble, I talked about this. Charles Barkley doesn't watch the league he broadcasts. He literally doesn't know 90% of the players. He's entertaining. Nobody cares. The audience, they don't care. Nobody cares. It's the entertainment business that we're in and you get extra credit for being right and smart and all these things.

But what a lot of I think broadcasters don't understand is this. The perfect storm is, entertaining, smart, funny, correct analysis, right? That's like if you could check every box, that would be it.

You can get away with, you can even thrive if you're, with your picks always being wrong, with your analysis, always being off, as long as you're entertaining

and captivating. If you, you could be right on Every prediction, know the name of every player. And there's a few broadcasters. You and I both know we don't have name names that are like this that are buttoned up on everything. And they're boring. But if you're boring and don't captivate the audience, you're drawn dead.

You're just flatly drawn dead. Years ago, there was a guy named Pete Genesini at ESPN. Really nice guy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Really nice guy. And when I got to ESPN, they didn't, they weren't doing. radio very well. And they brought in a guy named Bruce Gilbert to kind of fix Mike and Mike.

There was a big vote whether to keep him or not when I first got there. And it was like nine people voted five to four. Keep them. Wow. So Bruce Gilbert came in to fix them and hire somebody to replace cornhizer. And that was the guy. And Pete's a really good guy and real smart guy. But we had a discussion one time. And he said the number one, the number one thing at ESPN is to be informative. And I said, Pete, it's number two. I said, I've watched you either demote or get rid of really informative people. This company has never gotten rid of somebody that's funny on the air and entertaining. Ever.

Ever. They may leave you. You don't get rid of them. I've watched you not promote people who are informative. I said, we radio, TV is the entertainment business. Remember when Barbara Walters was a journalist? and she was doing 20-20 and she was doing sit-down cushy interviews with Johnny Carson and Steven Spielberg.

That was the entertainment division. It was the highest-rated thing she did. That's why Barbara Walters made a fortune, not because of her journalism, because she would do these sit-down interviews that got massive ratings. And that was part of the entertainment budget. And so when I had this discussion with Pete, who again, this is not a criticism. And I just said, Pete, I'm watching what the company is. does. You promote really entertaining people. The messaging is be entertained.

Well, listen, and for me, that was, listen, that took me a long time to grasp on television. Because I'd figured out radio. I'd figured out how to do like the radio show exactly the way I needed to. And then when I got on TV, I think the first. year maybe, I thought the job was to always have all the answers. To have my, you know what I mean? To have the facts exactly right. To have to never be wrong. You know what I mean?

To always. And what I'm, you know, I've now done the show five and a half years. By a country mile, the most successful version of the show I've ever done is the one I'm doing right now, this moment with Wilds and Bruce Art. It's the funniest. And that's what. Now, I still, it's not like I have forgotten that info. I still have the info available to me, but I am not out there. I used to approach the TV show with the perspective of, I have to, I have to prove how smart I am to the audience every single day. And now I approach it as our entire goal is to put on a show that people smile while they're watching. You know what I mean?

that people smile while they're watching and have a good time and that has enough meat to it to where it's not all empty calories. There's got to be the information. There's got to be the analysis, but there's also got to be a lot of bells and whistles and funny stuff and, you know what I mean, guys messing with each other. And that's what works. And you know what I mean? That took me a while to figure out because people, you know, when I first started, they would say to me, me, the best version of you is when you're on with Colin. They're like, can you, can you try to be more of that on first things first? And I think part of it, I was like, well, I get up for first things first at 3.30

in a moment. So I don't know. I'm not certain. But the other thing was, especially early in our relationship, and I still do it, but especially early in our relationship. I was really, really trying to impress you. And I wanted to make you laugh. Like, every time I came on, I was like,

it's successful if I make Colin Lamb. And I didn't. I was too stupid to fucking realize I should just be trying to make the audience laugh too. Right. And I have to get out there and like to tell jokes. But the same, you know, and so the, but that was the best version of me at the time was because I wasn't trying. I felt like you knew I was smart.

So I wasn't trying to prove it to you. Right. So you know what I mean? So I could just kind of be the best version of myself. And that's what works. That's what works in this business. You go across the networks. I'll give credit to the other network, even though this show happens to be up against mine at one point.

A show that I think really works on the other network is NFL live. Because those people like each other. Yes. And they're fun together. And they bust each other's chops and they have real info. You know what I mean? Like that show, whenever I can't watch it because it's on the same time. But the clips, I'm like, oh, they're fun, they're funny, that works.

Yes. That always will work. People that get along that are smart, that know what they're talking about will always work. Well, yeah. And I don't watch that show, but I know the people on it and they're likable and they're fun. And this mug is from W.A.R. The radio station that cut me. That's some fun.

They sent it to me. Hey, listen, you're fired. So good. Here's a mug. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So people think from time to time I don't like certain people. I don't like Russell Westbrook's half court game.

He's probably a wonderful guy. It drives me crazy. I don't like the neediness of Aaron Rogers. I think he's a smart guy and a wonderful quarterback. But I do think about it that if I ran into Aaron or Russell, they wouldn't like me. and I totally get that. Andy Dalton once ran into me, and I called him the beige water pistol for a decade.

And he was really, really sweet. But Rogers is a fascinating person because he really does project a lot. He had another one this week when he said, you know, apparently they're doing discussions. You know, I'm not involved, which is interesting. And I thought, it's interesting. Aaron, you're so small.

but you lack a basic self-awareness that you are projecting constantly, passive-aggressively. And it's why, you know, I've said this about Aaron. We give too much credit to talent. What really separates Mahomes is his self-awareness. He's so effing good at the podium. He is such a good teammate. He almost never, ever compliments himself.

He goes, the talent thing, I think that Mahomes is gifted. But I think when I talked to Sean Payton, I went to dinner with him, spent four hours with him. Sean Payton told me that they flew in to Lubbock or whatever Godforsaken town he played college football in. Yeah, they wanted to draft him. But go ahead. After the workout, they brought in information they thought would overwhelm him and would take him. and would take three days. Within two hours,

he had digested it and was vomiting it out to them. He said it's the smartest player I'd ever interviewed. We got on a plane. We told nobody we were there. And Sean said, it was the greatest quarterback

I'd ever worked out or gone to a whiteboard. And that where Mahomes is underrated, his ability to consume information, see things, and let go with the ball instinctively is the greatest I've ever seen. I think Josh Allen has a stronger arm. I think Lamar is faster. I think Kyler Murray is almost more elusive. I think above the shoulders, Mahomes is almost a performance artist.

He's, he's prince. He is, he's, the world looks different. his dad was on, I'll mention it second time, second Danny Park and shout out, but his dad was on Danny's radio show a couple days ago and said the bear, the reason Mahomes counted on his fingers when he scored a touchdown against the bears was because the bears told him, we're drafting you at three. And then they traded up for Trubisky and Mahomes was crushed because he really wanted to go to Chicago. But in that same interview, and I'd never heard anyone say this,

he said that Patrick has an idetic memory. which I just googled what that meant. Identity. Yes. And that you can see something once and then always be able to pull it back, which I'd never heard someone say that about him. And maybe that's a dad, you know, embellishing about his kid. I don't know.

But if that's true or something close to it and what, you know, you're saying Sean Payton told you, it does. Now all of a sudden you have like, so let me give you. for instance. LeBron has the highest basketball IQ I've ever seen, plus kind of the perfect body for basketball.

It's like, hey, I want to play 20 years in the NBA. It's like, okay, you're going to have be big enough to withstand injuries. You know what I mean? Tall enough to lay. It's like, okay, so when check, check on like a brain thing and a body thing that leads you to this, right? Mahomes has the

physical gifts of like the crazy arm angle stuff and the arm strength from playing baseball. So that's like the physical stuff check. The memory thing that now we've had Sean Payton talk about, his dad talk about, it feels like we have contemporary evidence from seeing how he plays. Yep. It's like, oh, there might have been like two genetic lottery things where it's like in a same way that Michael Phelps like has the webbed fingers. and toes. It's like, oh, so it's like, it's not just that you work so hard and all these things.

You also happen to be kind of blessed specifically for this type of greatness. Yes. And so because there is an element with Patrick, and I think you want to talk Rogers. We can talk Rogers too. Yeah. But with Patrick of he can, he can, with the exception of like a third. three-week stretch during last season, he can instantly figure out what the defense is doing. And within a half, adjust if need be, in a way that I've seen very few quarterbacks ever

consistently be able to do. And the only one that I've seen be able to do it at this level is Manning. And Manning's problem, I think, problem is, listen, one of three best quarterbacks ever. but for Peyton what I think heard him a bit was he had that ability and almost couldn't turn it off to where if guys weren't where they were supposed to be or guys through he didn't have the improvisational abilities that's right that Patrick has which are as good as anyone I've ever seen yeah as good as anyone I've ever seen what do you think's going to happen with Aaron I think Green Bay ideally wants to send him to the Raiders. Because with Peyton and Russ, Herbert and Kellan Moore, and Andy and Mahomes,

he'll finish in fourth place. And so if Jordan Love is bumpy initially, which Aaron was in his first year, that, you know, Minnesota's not going 11 and 0 and 1 score games. Chicago's still awful and Detroit still Detroit, although they're better.

That I don't think they know quite yet what Jordan is, but if they can get another first round pick, address their tight-in situation, edge rusher, and get supplemental picks, right? That if the Jordan love situation's a little bumpy, Aaron's not crushing. Light in the world on fire.

Yeah. So, and I think, I think they want to move off. And, and I think this is why the Raiders right now are holding on a Derek car. The Raiders may be saying, the Raiders don't want to give up as much. I think Green Bay has leaked already publicly. All this stuff gets out, Nick, because somebody wants it out. They've already leaked AFC.

Aaron even said it. Well, they're talking about me. So Green Bay wants it out to the league, not Aaron. We are ready to move off him. Their takeaway is we don't. know exactly know what Jordan Love is, but what we don't want is far of the Vikings good, at least for a year. Correct.

And listen, the Jets obviously won them. They hired Hackett. Here's my, but I think Jets Raiders are obviously the leading contenders here. I'm going to throw something at you. Yep. When Quentin Tarantino came on the scene, it's all anybody talked about for two years, Spielberg has done far more, far longer. But it wasn't new and shiny and fun.

That we're not dissing LeBron or Brady or Spielberg. But we like the new stuff. We like the new restaurant, the new nightclub, the new Jha Morant, Zion Williamson, Josh Allen, who you've accurately said, we like him more than his game produces. And that I think LeBron was great early, great middle, great late. he's never had the story arcs going to baseball like MJ, the fight with his GM, the no,

couldn't win without Pippin, then he had Pippin, and then he left for baseball, and then he came back, and then he lost to Orlando. Michael's career had so many different chapters. LeBron Spielberg, Brady, great early, great middle, great late.

What's there to say? Well, I think there's that. I also think that when it, so I don't know if you saw this, but when people hear or see this, it'll be, I think, on February 3rd is when this will come out. Your former employer is doing across all shows tomorrow, because tomorrow is 2.3 slash 23,

Michael Jordan tributes. And if you, you, I understand the timing on the calendar, but you also can't, convince me, that's not some editorial decisions by folks who are heavily invested in Michael Jordan remaining the gold standard for everything that we are going to be potentially a day away from LeBron breaking Kareem's record. And we're going to have wall-to-wall Michael Jordan coverage. I mean, give me a goddamn break. And so there is, I think there has been so, So much of our sports logic forever has been, I shouldn't say forever, for the last 30 years,

has not been based on what is objectively the best, but has been based on what is objectively the most similar to Michael Jordan's arc that we have, we've perverted so many arguments. Like Tim Duncan was a more successful, more impactful, more winning, more everything than Kobe Bryant. But when you say Tim Duncan was better than Kobe, it breaks some people's brains because they're not judging who's better. They're judging who remind you more of Michael Jordan. I'm old enough to remember, as are you, that when Tom Brady, before he got to seven rings, after the Seattle Super Bowl when he had four rings and then two Super Bowl losses. There were people that argued Joe Montana's four rings were better than Brady's four

rings because Montana never lost a Super Bowl, which is objectively idiotic because it just means he didn't get there. But the reason that was the case was because we had already decided that Jordan's 6 and was better than Karim's 6 and 4, which never made any sense. Objectively speaking, that same logic would dictate, by the way, that Patrick Mahomes actually, if he loses in a week, that logic dictates, you know, it was bad for him to have this legendary performance on one leg and beat the Bengals.

Would have been better to just lose that game because loss is pre-championship round don't hurt you. But loss is in the championship round due. So much of it is about protecting the narrative. And I think the LeBron, if we wanted to tell the LeBron story the same way people want to tell the Michael Jordan story, the story of overcoming incompetent coaching at various steps, overcoming incompetent teammates of having no true, like, basketball training. He's come straight out of high school as opposed to having Dean Smith. Instead of coming from a great two-parent household, he had one parent, incredibly poor, and that one parent dealt with their own issues.

All of that could be part of the legend. But since the guy's been 27, a huge part of the story surrounding him has been discrediting what he's accomplished. because people want to protect Jordan. I truly believe that. And I think we're still seeing it. Can I throw this in? This is engineered by Michael,

who remains a grudge holder and incredibly petty. And the reason he okayed use of certain footage to ESPN, because after LeBron beat the Warriors, there were real discussions that LeBron's better than MJ. And MJ suddenly, the next day. The next day. The day after the parade. Yep.

And now, as LeBron gets ready to set the record. This is not coincidental. Michael is petty. He's a grudge holder. He still holds a grudge to Isaiah Thomas. Who the F cares anymore about that? So Charles Barkley, who used to be his best friend.

And it is just, I don't think. But the other part of it, forget the Michael part of it. The other part of it is on the media writ large. for just deciding what we are and are not going to treat with importance. I made this point on the TV show, but I didn't make it to you. I think you'll agree with me. There was far more day-by-day breathless coverage of Steph Curry breaking the three-point record last year than there has been about LeBron breaking the all-time points record.

Last night, or Wednesday night, LeBron passed four and five in the all-time assist rankings. Nobody cares. So he's going to be top four and assists. The day he becomes number one in points. And it feels like it has been a sub-story. Go ahead. No, you know, Nick, one of the things I've noticed by the media, I never blame fans.

It's short for Fanatic for having fans. favorites. That's why they're great. But one of the things I've noticed, I remember Jerry Seinfeld was asked, it was like two years ago. And he was asked about the media and the COVID coverage and people and their opinions. And, you know, I remember reading somewhere. Jerry Seinfeld said, well, maybe the media should do a better job. And I do believe the media can be condescending. They have agendas. I see it in the coverage about our careers where it's, so. I only can judge based on information I have and stuff that's written about our careers, radio TV. What's it like for politicians? What's it like for star athletes? So I don't think. And what's funny is Jordan basically refused to talk to Sports Illustrated because of a cover. Jordan won't talk to Isaiah Thomas or Charles Barkley.

He's petty. LeBron James may call out. certain people. But LeBron has been the most available NBA star outside of maybe magic of my life. He is every night, local broadcast, regional. Correct. Every night. And he doesn't do the big sit down interviews anymore except for maybe once a year,

unless it's with his own company. You know, he has his own production company. So he does stuff with him, which makes sense. But I mean talking all the time and it's just, it is incredibly frustrating to me. And the other thing that is also frustrating to me is that none of us, myself included, none of us thought it was possible for him to be in year 20 playing like this. Year 19 and 20, he's averaging 30 points, 36 minutes per game, better than 50% shooting. None of us thought it was possible.

And yet, almost nobody has stopped to appreciate it. We didn't think it was possible. And then we instantly started taking it for granted. And they're like, oh, they're not winning enough. Which is true except for the fact that this is an unbelievable stat. When LeBron's on the court, Colin, the Lakers have a better net rate. than Milwaukee. When he's off the court, they have a worse net rating than the Hornets.

So with the teammates around him, when he plays, they are A1 contenders. When he goes to the bench, they're a bottom three team. And I mean, that's an indictment on the general managing and on the roster construction, but it's not an indictment on LeBron. Make sure to check out the Dremont Green Show. I brought Dramon Green into the volume because one of the more entertaining voices in sports, unique perspective, understands behind the rope,

also chops up with guests like Gary Payton, Zach Levine, Tracy McGrady. Make sure download the Draymond Green Show wherever you get your podcast, only on the volume podcast network. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite, unhumored me with Robert Smygle and friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman

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