The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts - NBA Teams HAVE To Tank, NBA Players Are TOO Good Now, Crazy Sports Gambling Stories

Episode Date: February 21, 2026

Colin’s top takes of the week. First, he’s joined by Danny Parkins, host of “First Thing’s First” on FS1. They begin with tanking in the NBA and Colin argues that he’s pro-tanking because it’s the only way to turn your franchise around since it’s so difficult to trade star players in the NBA (2:30). They agree that NBA players have gotten so good at shooting 3’s, it’s led to a less visually appealing product for the fans that makes the regular season tough to watch (10:45) and they debate potential fixes (23:30).  Then,  joined by Art Manteris, a veteran bookmaker, to discuss sports gambling. They dive into some of the wildest sports gambling stories ever told — from massive celebrity bets to shocking moments involving Mike Tyson and others (30:00). (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates!  #Volume See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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So one of the topics of the week has been the tanking and the NBA. So I think sometimes you have to take a telescope and flip it. I am pro tanking because here's what we both would agree on what's happening in America. There's a lot more options. There's a lot of streaming services. there's a lot to watch TikToks and platforms. We're a distracted nation. And so what I'm about to say, everybody knows over the last 10 years, events do really well.

Baseball found this out when they started doing, you know, baseball games in a cornfield, baseball games in Europe, home run, derby, World Series actually do really well. It's that minutia. It's the regular season that hockey, NBA, and baseball can struggle. That's why I believe dynasties, I believe the opposite of what Adam Silver does. Football doesn't matter. College and pro football don't matter. It's once a week.

World Cup doesn't matter every four years. Olympics don't matter. But in Monday through Friday sports, long regular season, now the David Stern approach works better because a distracted nation isn't tuning in parity. They're not going to tune in parity. So that's my first take. My second take is what makes the NFL great is Mike Vrable and the Patriots can spend 270 million and go from unwatchable to the Super Bowl. Now they got some breaks along the way and they weren't as good as Seattle.

You can't do that in the NBA. I mean, you know, with the Bulls, you can't trade people. I mean, if a franchise is like, listen, we want to get rid of an aging star. And the Bulls were like, oh, love to. But they're young, they don't, they'd have to, they wouldn't know how to cobble together. enough players or bringing a third team to get it done. And so the only way to go from bad to good is the Spurs. You tank and get Stefan Castle. You tank and get Wembe. Then you make another, because they're very inexpensive for the first several years, you make another couple moves to get

your, you know, you're a Deerran Fox or you, and all of a sudden you look up and you're like, oh, we go from like 24 wins to 38 to 56. And so I don't know if you can solve tanking outside had taken away draft picks, which seems really punitive since there's only two rounds. And if you're going to make trading impossible, how else do you go? I think Utah is on the precipice of being very interesting in the next year. How? They've been awful for three years. So I guess my take is dynasties, we could start with either one.

Dynasties actually make much more sense now than they did in the 70s when we were less distracted. And I'm okay with tanking. if the rules currently disallow big sweeping trades for the Wizards to become OKC within two years, which you can't do that now. Okay. So as always, there's a lot there. Well, let's park the dynasty thing for maybe a little bit later. We've talked about that a lot in baseball.

And like, I agree that the power of dynasties, the chiefs became the team that all the NFL network executives want. And it replaced the Cowboys because they are. dynasty. So you and I are an agreement and I think the data backs it up as fact. Like, dynasties work. The trade point is an interesting one because we actually just saw at this deadline, like Washington now has Trey Young and Anthony Davis. Like some of the free agent rules have actually made it where it's easier for you to retain your guys with, you know, the bird rights and you can go over the cap to sign your own players and things like that.

that like I think that free agent, like good players leaving in free agency is going to, is going to decrease, which to your point makes the draft even more important. But the tanking thing, I don't know how you can say you're okay with what Utah is doing. This is, it's so, we're recording this the night of the All Star game. They are sitting players in the fourth quarter of games. that it is anti-com competition. It is anti-sport. Like, is it the biggest deal in the world?

I do think there are bigger problems with the NBA, and I'd love to do like a global conversation about all of it with you. But like, I don't know how you can say. Because like, in this case, it's Utah against Orlando, Utah against Miami, and nobody really cares. But what if it was a team that we did care about? And I would imagine that the 15,000 fans that bought tickets to those games would would care about it.

It is a, these are sports, man. It's an entertainment product. You can't have the games mean nothing. They have to mean something. But I think the Utah fans who almost have a collegiate feel because it's a smaller NBA market, I think they're in on it. I think they know it. I don't think, I think they go to the games and enjoy it with their friends.

But if you ask them, you can get the number two pick or the number 14. They would take the number two. So you can play. Of course. So you can play the young guys, compete as much as you can with the young guys. But, I mean, Utah's been bad for several years. What's another 12 games or 26 games at the end of the year? I mean, again, it's only a two-round draft.

So people say, well, we're going to take draft picks away. Spygate and deflategate, you only took one pick. If you took 50% of people's picks, okay, we're taking a first-round pick. Well, then that bad team has even less chance to get good. But don't you think you want, like, I want to say, I want to say this before we get any more into it, because I've heard a lot of the conversation over the last week, because it seems like what happens in our business is we are so football-centric. And then the Super Bowl ends, and we deconstruct it for a day or two. And then we immediately pivot to the NBA, and we kind of parachute in and we're like, problems with the NBA, whether it's tanking, three-point shooting, injuries, load management, like, whatever the issue of the day is, this. year because of the Utah example, literally sitting players unapologetically in the fourth quarter

before the All-Star break. We all seized on the tanking thing. You and I have some disagreements here. One thing I do want to say, though, amidst all of the complaining, the talent is so unbelievable. Yes. The league has so many things going for it. Yeah. Like Katie and Steph and LeBron, not only are still here, they're all still awesome. Yeah. They are ambassadors of the sport. They are Advocates for the sport. They love hooping. They're still great players on varying degrees of competitive teams. I don't know that I don't think the Lakers can win a title. I don't think that the Warriors can win a title. But we're going to see those guys play basketball beyond the regular season into their late 30s or in LeBron's case, early 40s. It's a miracle. They're unbelievably talented. And I think one of the biggest problems with the sport,

is actually counterintuitive, and it's that the players have gotten too good. I think they have broken the game. They're so good at shooting threes that it is so easy for them to do it, that the sport has become a jump shooting contest, 53s, 63s a game. And it makes it less exciting. Yes. Because I like to see them dunk and fly and do the things that I can't dunk. I can hit a three-point shot.

Okay. So it's, and then that has led to you've got to defend all over the place. That's right. So you got to run more. Guys are rupturing their Achilles and then they're more tired. So they have to sit. You and I agree. It's all connected together.

Okay. So you and I agree. I said this last week twice. Every year at this time, we bang on the NBA. And I said, playoffs will start. I'll totally be engaged. The game will become much more of a mid-rain game than a three-point game because it becomes get a stop.

get a basket in close games late. You just sometimes you just need a basket. That's why Kauai Leonard is an irrelevant regular season player, but he's been such a great postseason player because he gets stops and he gets twos. Jimmy Butler. That's the first. So I think I don't know if I said this to you, but I said it to somebody. I just, I'm watching right now a great documentary.

I'm through the first two episodes. There's four. It's called Soul Power. It is a four-part documentary on the ABA. It is fantastic. I mean, I don't know where they got the video. So much of it I knew because I started watching sports in late 1971. That's the time Spencer Haywood and the Dr. Jay,

that's why Spencer Haywood and Dr. Jay are my first two basketball memories because I was like seven years old. And I remember, you know, seeing Dr. Jay, who was my first, you know, favorite basketball player. So they have video. Apparently the ABA, I didn't know this, had a huge fight problem. I don't know where they got the video. There must be 20 pieces of video of fistfights. It's like, it's hockey without the helmets.

It's just haymakers, guys laying on the floor. So, but that's where the three-point shot came from. But my point has always been, Danny, that basketball was the sport of artistry and culture. And sometimes politics, starting with Spencer Haywood, going to the Supreme Court. That was the NFL was corporate. Baseball was the summer sport. you could go have a beer, you didn't care who won, right, unless you were a diehard. Basketball was the cool sport.

It was the afros. It was the dunking. That's why the ABA became a threat to the NBA. The NBA was overcoached. It was like college basketball. It was overcoached. It was rigid. There was limitations, sadly, on how many African American players could play the team.

And the ABA is like flavor and dunking and threes and a tricolored ball. And it was like, well, that's what we like. Here's the problem with the three. the three has reduced dominant centers with quirky games, mid-range games. If Michael Jordan played today, he'd shoot 13 threes a game. Of course. Outside of the Blazer finals, do you ever remember seeing him shoot a three that mattered in a game or a highlight we've seen? No, of course.

I've argued this. We have taken all these art. It's the one sport of artistry. It's the artistry sport. and we've taken the artistry out of it. Now, outside of Steph, whose game is fundamentally based on the three, we've taken Aunt Edwards, Wembe, to shoot a bunch of threes. Ant is the closest thing to MJ we've had.

If you took Kauai's hand size and aunt, you kind of have MJ. And, I mean, Ant's just, he shoots 11, 10, 9 threes, Wemby, too many threes. So if you took the three point line into the bench, you did not have to defend the corner, you could more easily defend the arch three, those players would move inside. What happens when you have a mid-range game? More physicality. Guys aren't chasing people down. They're defending them.

Ass on ass, hip on hip, shoulder on shoulder. What do we like about the NBA playoffs? It's physical. It's like men battling. Fans get into it. So I think the arc, the three-point shot into the bench reduces all these soft, these injuries. people are complaining about where the pace is so fast, centers are running to the corner, it would become a more physical game. But I think malice in the palace terrifies the league

and there's something about making the game less physical for a big portion of the regular season. And I agree with you. It's hard and repetitive to watch. Yeah, to me that is, so there's the health of the players, there's the tanking, there is load management, which is caught up in both of them. But to me, the biggest issue is the style of play. But again, every time I say it, like I do want to say, I love the game. I respect their talent. And the playoffs are amazing.

What bothers me a little bit, I think the in-season tournament was a really interesting idea. We've talked about it before, taken from the Premier League. And it's guys clearly play harder. There's a trophy on the line. It means something. And I think it will only grow in its relevance here. but what I wish they would have done with it is I wish that the mid-season, the in-season tournament, instead of a different court, we had different rules so we could experiment with some of this stuff.

Yeah. Like, I don't 100% know if what you just said is correct about eliminating the corner three or if like we would just see a lot more like 18 foot jumpers. Yeah. I don't know. I think you're right, but I don't know. So I want to see it. Like you know what I mean? I want to see, would it be better if we had a trapezoidal, like, international style lane

instead of too vertical to force, like, more crashing of the boards and putbacks and things like that, like, more offensive rebounds. Like, I would be very interested in, like, them. Baseball did it. Yeah. But what people miss about what baseball did, people give Rob Manfred a lot of credit. and that's like mostly right. But Rob Manfred employed Theo Epstein.

Theo Epstein's a genius and he really cares about the game. And when Theo was running the Red Sox and the Cubs, his whole thing was like, how do I exploit the rules to win? It wasn't in the best interest of the sport to strike out more, walk more, hit more homeowner. It's boring. But as soon as he got hired by Major League Baseball as a consultant, he tried to start closing those loopholes, more stolen bases, ball and play more, you know, three batter rules, all those sort of things to like to try to force some action into the game.

Pitch clock, obviously being the biggest one, it's worked. And it's worked. But that wasn't like Rob Manfred's genius. He needed like a basketball person. And so I feel like the NBA, they have so much goddamn money. And the television contracts are so good that they look around and they're like, well, Our playoffs are awesome. Our talent is awesome and our money is awesome.

And all of those things are undeniably true. But do you have like a basketball? Like I'd be higher LeBron when he retires and be like, okay, honestly, what is the best way to improve the on-court product? What do you like about high school ball, college ball, international ball, the NBA, you're a historian of the game, the old NBA. Like, what is the best version of this sport and how do we get there and how do we get to it? And, like, really have hard conversations about what you can do to it. And, you know, Bill Simmons had a great rant about all of this stuff.

And I listened to his pot and I agreed with some of it, disagreed with some of it. But, like, he seems to believe that you could do 70 games. But the owners wouldn't want to give back the money. So expand. Like, the. NBA, absolutely, you watch this sport, guys sit out because of injury, real or imagined, and guys you've never heard of come in and drop 30 like it's nothing. There's absolutely enough basketball talent in the world to fill 32 teams.

So if you went to 32 teams and added Seattle and Vegas, that would increase revenue, then cut back to 70 games, give the players a little bit more rest, they play more, they stay healthier. I feel like that is an obvious fix for the league here that doesn't solve every problem, but it solves a lot of problems. And the other thing is baseball made these changes, and for years they were reticent to do so because it's a game of history and lore and tradition. Basketball's not. There's an old saying in sports.

NBA thinks of it first. NFL gets it right. Baseball makes the most money on it. Basketball, I mean, David Stern changed the texture of the ball and didn't tell the players. He came out. I remember that. It was just outrageously a bad idea. Then they put sleeves on uniforms and some people thought that was to hide tattoos.

That looked dumb. So, I mean, the NBA is, and David Stern's largely considered almost a maverick, a highly successful commissioner. He took big swings and missed. So I think, I do think in life and in business, when the money is good, people, It absolves you of change. Yeah. And I do think, I agree with you.

I think that David Stern used to tell like networks like ESPN, listen, guys, nobody watches our regular season. They never have. That's the dirty little secret of this business. But I think there's more media critics and more people bagging on basketball. I think it just needs a few tweaks. I would tweak the three-point game, make it more situational, make it more about contact and physicality. You do that by just take out the corner threes, make the three arc go right in the bench. And I also, people can bag on tanking all they want is that's why San Antonio is going to have a 12-year run.

By the way, if you go back to their, you know, how did they get Dunkin, David Robinson? They were the first tankers, by the way. Remember when David Stern was around and they wouldn't play, like in big Sunday games, they would be at home in San Antonio on, I think it was Saturday night and they wanted to reward their fans. And then on Sundays, like, it's a travel day. I'm not playing Manu Genoobli and Tony Parker in the league. David Stern got on the phone and barked at everybody, ownership now. But it's the same conversation, but we're talking slightly past you.

It is smart. I am not going to say that tanking isn't smart. Sam Presti tanked in order to get some of the picks that he got, right? Like the Spurs, as you've mentioned, it's undeniably the right strategy. The question should be, again, like, should it be allowed? Like in baseball, it was the right strategy. A strikeout is not as bad as we think. Swing hard because home runs are so valuable.

It's okay if you hit 220 if you hit 40 bombs. I'd rather you hit 220 with 40 bombs than hit 260 with 24 bombs. Even though 260 with 24 bombs ball and play more and more action, more visually appealing product. But you score more runs if you hit the ball over the wall. So they did things to kind of move it away. from that to have more action in the sport. And so again, like, I, what's wrong with the rule? This is just a, it's a very simple one.

You can't pick in the top four in back-to-back years. Like, baseball has it. That's okay. I'm okay. Yeah. Like, like, baseball has that. Like you, the White Sox a couple years ago had the worst record, but they had picked in the top whatever it was.

So they had to pick like 11th that year. Like, just make it so that, like, Utah fans. even if you're right that they are like okay with it because it's a path to it. It's still at some point, this is competition. It's sports. You got to play the game to win or else what the hell are we doing? And Danny, why your reason your belief could make sense is about three years ago because of the NIL where American universities now buy 15 excellent euros and they pull them off their European teams. and kids are now staying in college.

Absolutely. We see it in football all the time now. There's six-year players. The truth is now, last year's draft was excellent. This year's draft is legendary. The drafts now are much better. I mean, this past draft, you get down to Ace Bailey at like six. The first six are like, no miss.

And then you go from like seven to 18 and you're like, well, those guys will all start at some point in the NBA. So I think that idea sticks to me because the draft. going to get much better. When that Yukon team won a couple years ago, it was the first time, in my opinion, in 20 years, maybe since the Florida Gators won back to back. Remember, they had Corey Brewer, Yo Kim Noah. Yeah, Joe Kim Noah.

That was a really really good team. Yeah. And then we went, how many years it was until the Yukon championship? You're like, this isn't great. But that Yukon team won, and I'm like, shit, there's seven NBA guys. They're like playing, they're long. I mean, they got, they got, they were like the Sabin, Alabama teams.

you're like, they have 16 NFL guys playing. The Yukon team's like, that's when I went, okay, this, the transfer portal and all this stuff, we're starting to see now. Like, this is really like it was when I used to watch Latner and Bobby Hurley and Grant Hill, you're like, there's like four NBA guys on this team and two guys off the bench will be NBA guys next year. So I think it works with you. The, no, you don't get a top four pick, but picks five through 14 are going to be starters in the NBA now. I don't necessarily, but we had drafts where it was.

Anthony Bennett was the number one pick. I mean, we had the Victorola Depot draft. You're like, I'm not sure there's a guy in like three out of four drafts. You're like, it's just nobody here. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And so I just, again, I think that there's just, I think that that's one thing. I think the pick protections on trades are little this. You can trade a first round pick, but it's top 20 protected.

It's like shrink that way down. Like, because right now, Utah, they, the reason that they need to tank so aggressively is because if they pick outside of the top eight, it goes to Oklahoma City. Like Sam Presti would get, Sam Presti could get the ninth pick in this draft. Like, so like, Utah's like, we need the pick, but also like the good of the league. We can't give Sam Presti another top 10. I saw that. You know, so like, so like, I just, I just think that those types of things, uh, the league needs to do. They need to do it.

And I think overall the product will improve. But again, to me, the biggest one is still style of play. And figuring out, like, and Katie hates when people talk about this because he thinks that people are doing it from a place of just looking for something to bitch about. I honestly think that these guys have just gotten too good. They're too good at hitting 23 footers. Like, the whole league can shoot 35. I like a whole week.

Yeah. I like Kevin Durant shooting threes. I don't like aunt shooting them. Correct. I like Dame shooting them. I don't like aunt shooting. There are players who are catch and shoot guys. Clay and KD are built for it.

But when Russell Westbrook decides, I need to take five. That's bad television. Correct. Exactly. And like, again, back in the day. And it's not that it's not that you put on a game from the 90s when I'm a child and I got Michael Jordan's jersey on my wall. like it it is they're not running as hard they are not as fast like it is not but they had one guy who

would shoot threes Steve cur you're the three-point shooter John Paxson you're the three-point shooter now everyone does it and so it's just the game is you got it you got to evolve you got to evolve with the caliber of your athletes today's show brought to you by our presenting sponsor hard rock bet Florida's best sports book I know it's tough with no football but like the song says I will survive. Hard Rock Bet, always something to bet every single night. Hoops, hockey, so much more. All the great same game parleses. Live betting, player props. Hard Rock Bet is the official sports betting partner of the Miami Heat and the Orlando Magic. So they know their basketball as well. If you haven't signed up yet for Hard Rock Bet, never been a better time. Signups, double your

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I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing. a bit for the podcast where people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman helped make you funny. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app,

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Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source.

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Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the iHeart radio. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, I just finished it. I was so excited. I just flew from Naples back to Chicago, and I read it. It's called The Bookie. Inside the High Stakes World of Sports Betting, a legendary bookmaker's tale of gangsters, celebrities, and the art of the game. All the proceeds from the bookie are going to arts two favorite charities,

World Wildlife Fund and Blood Cancer United. This is fun for me because, as many of you know, if you've listened to me for years, I've talked a great length about my Las Vegas being my first job out of college. Well, one of the people that was at the center of it and around it, one of the most recognizable people who was building his own career was Art Man Terrace, who started at Caesars, moved to the Hilton, where I spent almost every Saturday and Sunday as a young sportscaster. So let's start with that. There's so many things to get to.

And I want to take this because a lot of this stuff, I want you to explain to the audience. Some of this stuff I knew. I am briefly in the book. And yes, I did introduce you to your wife, Sue, beautiful, elegant, smart, all the great things. And I hope she's doing well. I know she is. She is. In fact, regards.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful kids. Absolutely stunning, beautiful kids. So when you think of Caesar's Palace, I'm a guy from a small town. You go to Vegas. You think Caesar's Palace, you know, it's Harry Gluck, it's big money. It's like just Steve Wynn is becoming this big architect in Vegas.

And you, Caesar says, Art, get in here and organize our sports book. And I'm reading your stories. It was a mess. And it's amazing that this industry has grown so much. Take the audience to when you went into Caesars, the back room to organize their sportsbook and what you saw. Well, you're right that in the early days of the sportsbook industry that I joined in 1980, it was far different from the industry today. And there wasn't a whole lot of procedures and policies in place.

And some of the sports books were pretty chaotic. Now, in fairness to some of the other executives of Caesars, they were hoping to do and wanting to do the same things out that I did. And certainly the finance and audit people were a big help. And once they knew that they had somebody that wanted to clean things up, wanted things to be run legitimately and properly. And within gaming control board standards, compliance standards. Yeah, they were very, very helpful also. But yes, it was chaotic in those days. there was very few house rules, very few standards of operational standards.

And I think I was able to establish a lot of those policies that are still in place today in a lot of casinos. Yeah, you and Chuck Esposito were the two guys I always trusted. I always thought you guys had kind of an everyman quality. And I don't think people understand this. there were people that I knew like Lem banker. I didn't know Billy Walters at the time. And Lem could be very manipulative, rest in peace, and very much a showman. And, you know, Lem wanted what Lem wanted.

But when you started in this business, you know, I'm very naive. Yeah, I just figured, you know, the big guys had phone accounts, but they weren't working the edges. It was a big operation. But you had real run-ins with Billy Walter or a Lem banker. and let's talk about the most famous of the gamblers, Billy Walter, and how, Art, you, listen, you're paid by the Hilton or Caesars. This is a legitimate operation. Those guys didn't want to play by your rules. Well, you know, I respect the folks that you're mentioning. Yeah, I certainly respect their abilities as handicappers. They were both top-notch, and I respect that. But they were adversaries. You know, they weren't.

aren't friends and partners or colleagues. They were adversaries. And certainly that left a real divide. And so, no, I didn't get along real well with certain high-end sophisticated players. You know, they threatened my bottom line. And, you know, and I said to a few people in recent weeks that, you know, you know, maintaining compliance, maintaining the gambling license of a company, I always viewed as my top priority.

Second was guest service for everyone. And third was revenue. But nevertheless, the bottom line in all of that, yeah, you know, guest service is great, you know, having great television screens and audio systems and computer systems that function properly. That's all an important part of the business. But making money is still the bottom line. And it's still, after all of a sudden, that, and it's still about making money.

And there were certain people they wanted mine, and I wanted theirs. And that doesn't always lead to the most comfortable of relationships. So I didn't know what runners were until I met people like you or Chuck Esposito. And, you know, I'd sit down and be asking a million questions because I was curious about the industry, and I always love betting football. And you had to battle runners. A runner is somebody who is making bets for a whale, making bets for a whale, making bets for a billy.

And, you know, he just can't walk in. He can get banned or you're going to have limits on him. And his way around that is, I'm going to have 30 guys spread them around the city. Could you tell? Because, you know, you had your guys, your tellers. Could you tell that's a runner? That's not. I mean, how difficult was that for you, that game of cat and mouse?

Well, it was difficult. And in Nevada, there's, there are regulations prohibiting what's called messenger betters. And that, you know, slang term is runners, of course, but that, but they are folks that are paid to wager on behalf of others. And by the way, just coincidentally, in recent months, New Jersey has passed laws banning proxy wagering, as it's called in their regulations. And that prohibits people from using other people's phone accounts. And that's, you know, very, very similar end result. in answer to your question, sometimes, not always, but sometimes. You know, I mean, there would be certain tip-offs if you believed somebody was runner.

And certainly, with today's technology, you could see point spread movement around the industry. And, you know, my long-standing statement to my staff was, well, either this guy has ESP or he's working with somebody else. Because if the line's changing across the industry simultaneously as somebody's playing, that's a pretty fair indication of where the source of those funds might be coming from. But there's no tried and true standard answer that gives me or anyone else the ability to determine that definitively. It's a pretty tough question to answer. But there are indications. And I always tried to err on the side of caution rather than the side of law.

leniency. You know, there's a story. When I was a kid growing up, the most well-known NBA official was Earl Strom. He was very boisterous. He was very much theater and charismatic. And there's a story in your book about, and this just goes to show you the lengths. You didn't have the internet back then. I mean, it was basically you tell a story about to get to figure out because gamblers felt like, oh, he, he. has a tendency to blank as a ref or do this. It's not rigged. It's not throwing a game, but referees are human. They have tendencies. That's right. For years and years, there were certain officials that just were willing to give the road team, maybe Steve Javvy for years. I always

was told that, hey, he'll go into a harsh arena. He'll give the road team the call. He won't be intimidated like maybe young refs or college refs. But tell the Earl Strom story, because I thought that was fascinating. Well, there was a very sophisticated gambler who I was friendly with, very friendly with. I actually played softball together. He was a terrific slow-pitched softball pitcher and one of those old timers that really knew the game. And we were very friendly. I didn't realize the extent of his sophistication as a sports better because, again, he wasn't making most of his bets in person.

Others were. So I didn't put two and two together for quite some time. But later, he did tell me the story of how he would track Earl Strong because he believed that he had strong tendencies. And he believed that his officiating could dramatically affect NBA totals. And he, you know, his total bets were based in large part on where Earl Strom was going to be officiating. And as you said, there was no internet back then. So he literally had it. He didn't know who was officiating the games.

Well, he had somebody following Earl Strom to determine what city he was flying to. That just cracks me up. Basically, Earl Strom had spies. Oh, Earl's in Detroit tonight. Bet the over. Yes, that's right. That's right. So what happens in your career?

I fell in love with boxing when I moved to Vegas. And there are times it could be a Pachial-Mayweather fight or a Buster Douglas Tyson fight where by proxy, you have information that is kind of viewed as inside information. What do you do when you know something, maybe you shouldn't know, you stumble on it, or you're so connected, art, you just find things out, right? Yeah. In those instances, if you could take the audience through one or two of those, where is that a dilemma for you?

It absolutely is a dilemma. And, you know, for many years, particularly after you left, you left Las Vegas. I got real involved in boxing. I was very involved in signing big fights and operating the fights and being part of the publicity tours for various big fights. And I never saw I never thought anything about it. It was just part of my job and I and I love doing it. I love being around boxing. I love running sports books. Yeah. And so, you know, it didn't, it didn't bother me. I didn't feel any any great conflict. until the Mayweather-Pack-Yel fight.

And in that fight, I did find out some very, very important inside information. And it left me in a real dilemma before the fight. I was told straight up that Pac-Ell was hurt and could not win the fight. And when you watch the fight, that's exactly what happened. He was a one-armed fighter that night. He immediately had shoulder surgery shortly after the fight. and it became crystal clear to me that there must be a very clear separation between participation in sports, including on the promotional end, and gambling on sports.

And I've preached that message ever since. And I did work for the NBA as a consultant for many years, and of course they love that message, as did the other leagues, you know, because I would be at various conferences and speaking engagements. And, you know, I felt a great deal of camaraderie with the leagues on that issue. That's why, Colin, the embracing of gambling now by the leagues had been surprising to me. You know, I mean, I knew that there was going to be some cooperation, data sharing, for example, for in-play wagering, video signals into casinos and sports books, of course, is another form of cooperation. and that I certainly expected, but the amount of official sponsorships and official partnerships with the gambling companies, that has really surprised me.

And I think that that message can't stand. It's not going to stay there forever because there's going to be pushed back inevitably. And I look around the world, the world of sports gambling. you know, you look to Europe where sports gambling has been legal now for something like 25 years or 30 years, and sports book advertising is not legal. And there's great pushback now in the UK and Ireland and the Netherlands, in Germany, and elsewhere around the world. The U.S., of course, is still going 100 miles an hour the opposite direction. And, you know, I think that's a terribly mixed message that the least message that the least.

are trying to send right now. You know, they tell their players and their staffs, the coaches, and even office personnel, how they must stay away from gambling, how evil gambling is. And yet they're signing these partnership agreements. And in some cases, even wearing gambling company logos on their shirts. So I think it's confusing to a lot of young athletes. And it's going to continue to cause problems. until there is a day of reckoning.

And I hope that the leagues address this issue themselves rather than have it imposed upon them. Yeah. And let's, you know, prop bets are something I think that worry people. I've said before, I worry about not betting the spread as much because games are monitored. You always knew and you predicted this and you told the NBA when you sat down with David Stern, watch the officials. It's not going to be about the players. It's going to be college kids because they don't have any money and it's going to be officials. And so what's interesting is the Tim Donagie situation happened. And it was, I will say this. And I've talked to Tim Donnekeke. It was, let's let's take it back because I for years argued, Vegas is the ally of the pro leagues. They don't want it. Listen, the margins are thin on this stuff. That's right. The last thing they want is, is for there to be illegal gambling. They'll tell the leagues, we're getting burned on this game or we're getting burned by this

official. So let's go back to the Tim Donagy situation where he wasn't necessarily changing outcomes. He was changing overs and unders. And take the audience back, because I want to get them into your book. Were you shocked by Donagy? I was caught off guard. I did not see that it was happening. And I had great regret about that.

and I talk about that in the book. I wish I had caught it. It would have been very difficult to see, though, because we did not get bet on those games or those totals. So there was no unusual money flooding into the Las Vegas casinos, like there was, for example, in the Arizona State point shaving scandal of the mid-9, which was easy to see. And I was so proud of the industry for seeing it,

doing the right thing, notifying the leagues, notifying, or in that case, the NCAA, and of course the Nevada Gaming Control Board, having everything documented, videotaped, et cetera. We handled the situation perfectly. So I took great pride in that, and I took that part of my job seriously monitoring for those types of improprieties. The Donahey scandal, though, was very upsetting to me, you know, in seeing David Stern, before the media, when that was first reported, was heartbreaking. He was genuinely crushed, hurt by what had happened. It was plain to see.

You could see the pain on his face, and that's all I felt, too. But today, it's far different. And, you know, mentioning the prop bets, I've never been an advocate of prop bets on college athletes. I did wind up doing it the last several years that I was in the business, but I had to to keep up with the Joneses. By that time, you know, in the late 2018, 19, in early 20s, you could not have prop bets up on the college football championship game or the final four. You know, it was expected by that time by your consumers and you had to accommodate your consumers. So I did do it, but I never liked it. But what's happened now in the last couple years with, you know, in pro baseball and pro basketball has been very surprising and devastating to me.

And that is going to be very tough to control. Prop betting and in-play wagering has become a very fun, enjoyable pastime for thousands and thousands of consumers. So it's going to be hard to roll that back. on college sports, it should be rolled back. And I am a strong advocate of the industry doing away with pro wagering on college sports or on college, individual athlete, athletic performance. I want to go back to the Tyson Buster Douglas fight where Mike Tyson, I think, was a 42 to one favorite. I can remember going on the air and saying it's the safest bet of all time. In fact, a friend of mine, a friend of mine was at the California pizza kitchen at the at the at the then time new

Mirage and we were at California pizza and the fight was that night and he goes hey I'm going to bet $10 on Buster Douglas. I said just buy a chicken California pizza chicken barbecue chicken pizza that is a way better bet than Buster Douglas some guy from Ohio of course I was you know exceptionally wrong. Go back to. that fight. What happens in your space when it is the upset of a decade in any sport? Is that a miserable experience for you? Well, I didn't even book that fight. I didn't take wages on it. I considered it an out price, meaning it was ridiculous. It wasn't a competitive event. Buster Douglas had fought it to Hilton about a year earlier and lost to Tony Tucker.

and did not impress me at all. He, you know, he was lethargic and, you know, just uninspired performance completely and didn't look good at all. And I'd seen him in some other fights, too, on his way up the ladder. Not very impressive to me. Tyson, of course, was annihilating everybody at that time. But in retrospect, Buster Douglas had lost his mother shortly before the fight. And he dedicated his next fight to the memory of his mom, fought the fight.

fought the fight of his life. He really did fight a terrific fight that night. Tyson, on the other hand, was an emotional wreck in his personal life. And I came to learn later. In this case, I learned this insight information after the fact, not before the fact. But I was told by a very good friend and my personal physician, who happened to be Mike's personal physician also and also the chairman of the Nevada Athletic Commission that Mike had been suffering from a, an STD and was under heavy medication at the time of the fight. And it wasn't the first time that he fought under those conditions. The first time in the Trevor Berwick fight, it didn't hurt his performance at all. The second time it did. Yeah. By the way, by the way, Colin, that 42 to 1 that you're referencing,

that was Jimmy Vicaro at the Mirage book the fight. And he put it up 1 to 27, making Tyson a 27 to 1 favor. favorite over Douglas, and all the money was on Tyson. Every ticket was on Tyson. Somebody put up a lot of money, you know. And so he ratcheted the odds all the way up to 42 to one and then got some great publicity about it afterwards. Still telling stories about it to this day.

Hey, guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast. called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it.

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