The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - Prime Cuts: Ryen Russillo on Bad Zion Vibes, Rodgers Drama & Ian O'Connor on Brady Comeback, Coach K

Episode Date: February 26, 2022

It's Prime Cuts! The best of the Colin Cowherd Podcast. First, Colin's top takes (3:00), including his reaction to the college hoops postgame handshake altercation between Michigan HC Juwan Howard and Wisconsin's Greg Gard, which team makes sense for a Tom Brady comeback, and what Aaron Rodgers most recent cryptic Instagram post says about its author.Then, Ryen Russillo - Host of the Ryen Russillo Podcast - (17:00) gives his thoughts on the growing negative narrative surrounding Zion Williamson, what's behind the Aaron Rodgers Instagram drama, and if the constant distractions decrease his trade value. Ian O'Connor -- NY Post columnist and author of Belichick and Coach K -- (31:00) discusses the rough early years at Duke, the turning point for Coach K's program, and why Ian thinks it's only a matter of time before Tom Brady comes back to the NFL and how Bruce Arians may have driven Brady away. Make sure you follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates and check out FanDuel for the best wagering and daily fantasy action! Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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betting, it's the best. Hey, if you're new, just download the Fandul Sportsbook app. I did it in 15 seconds. Get started now. Sign up. Please use the promo code Colin so they know we sent you. Please use the promo code Colin, C-O-L-I-N. Fandul Sportsbook app, sign up. Hi, everybody. Welcome to Prime Cuts, the best of the Colin Coward podcast. Let me just say this. It's a good week. This is a really good prime cuts. Okay. This is like, if you go to a steakhouse, This would be the best steak. This would be like a $70 fillet. But first, my top takes of the week.

College basketball is my first thought today as Michigan and Wisconsin squared off in a big 10 game on Sunday. Now, by this time, you've seen the video of the coaches getting into it and the players after that getting into it. You know, I would start with this. There are levels, obviously, too bad. behavior. So both Greg Gard, the Wisconsin coach, and Joanne Howard, the Michigan coach, I think should be suspended for their immature, juvenile, boorish behavior after the game as they got into each other's face. It appeared both people touched each other. I don't care who did it first. It's bad behavior. You're paid seven figures a year to be the adults in the room. But of the levels of bad behavior, which included Michigan and Wisconsin, players getting into like a fight afterwards, which has been under discussed, throwing a punch by Joanne Howard at a Wisconsin assistant is the worst behavior of all the really boorish, churlish behaviors. I don't think he should be fired, but this all comes down to ego. I went to social

media. How many, how many guys said this? Hey man, you touched me. It's game on. Well, no, it's not. You have to walk away from that stuff if you're a grownup that wants to make 5, 6, 7 million a year coaching basketball at highest levels representing universities. It can't be about your ego all the time in life. Politicians, sportscasters, basketball coaches, public figures have to walk away from schmucks and jerks and instigators. Both coaches need to grow up. But throwing a punch is the worst action of. all the actions. So therefore, that's the one I would penalize and punish the most.

Some people said, well, Colin, in the 80s, Bobby Knight did this and that. Listen, I'll never defend Bobby Knight. He's my least favorite coach in the history of my career. But in the 80s, we smoked on airplanes. Let's not take the behavior that was accepted in the 80s and say in 2022, it's all good. Bobby Knight would not last today. Bobby Knight should not have lasted in the 90s. It's embarrassing.

And Ian O'Connor writes about some of these instances. It's embarrassing that people defended him and did for two and three decades. But it's 2022. Joan Howard knows better. And Greg Gard knows better. Both the guys need to grow up. Something else that happened over the weekend. Rich Ornberger, former NFL player, a radio host in San Diego and a frequent guest on my show,

the very popular herd. I'm sure you've seen it. Most of America has. Anywho, he came out and said, with absolute conviction, and he's got connections all over the league, that Brady and Ariens relationship soured. My first takeaway is, yeah. I mean, you tell me the superstar in American sports

that likes being shouted out and ripped by his coach regularly. I never liked when Ariens did that. He has a right to. He's the head coach. but Bruce can be very loose in his coaching, in his style. And I thought ripping Brady repeatedly, publicly, was poor form. Tom's a good guy, but he's got an ego. He's the best player in the history of the most popular domestic league.

I'd use discretion when ripping him publicly. So when I hear these stories by Rich Ornberger, I absolutely believe them. I think Tom is retired for good. but I do think some of the suggestions that he would consider the 49ers if they called are real. From there, favorite team, total respect for Kyle Shanahan. They're built to win now. They're very run-centric. They're built for an older quarterback.

He doesn't have to throw 45 times. Kyle Shanahan would prefer he throws 27 times. Now, the division's tough. It'd be another system he has to learn. and Shanahan's system is usually better for all quarterbacks, Matt Ryan, Jimmy Garoppolo in the second year. But I think he'd consider it. He'd have a glass of wine with Giselle, and they discuss it in their Costa Rica village they own. Maybe an island for all I know.

Who knows? But it's worth discussing. When I retire, somebody may come and make me an offer, and I'm 70 years old. And then maybe an offer, I go, well, consider it. But I think Tom is a person that what he says he believes and what he says he usually does. And I do think he's got a fairly broad life, kids, wife, businesses, he'll stay retired. But the Niners offer would be worth a glass of Vino with your wife to discuss. So I put this story third because I don't want to feel desperate.

I do have to talk about the Aaron Rogers Instagram rambling. Listen, after the Super Bowl, there's about a three-week period before we get to NFL free agency. It is a very dry period. Now, the Super Bowl used to be the first week of February. Now it's the second, which actually shaves a week of despair off for talk show hosts, Radio or TV. But there's no question if Aaron Rogers dropped this in the middle of the regular season on a Monday or a Tuesday, it wouldn't get nearly as much play as it does now. We need content.

But I do think it's interesting with Aaron. Aaron increasingly to me has become high IQ, low EQ guy, emotional quotient. Never married, no kids, short relationships nearing 40. Bill Simmons and I had talked about this, you get a little weird. You know, it's a little Bill Maher. It's a little Keith Oberman. Never married, no kids, not sure if you have pets, not necessarily steady relationships. You kind of do what you want to do.

I mean, Aaron Rogers goes for a 12-day. cleanse. If I called my wife and say, hey, I'm going to leave the kids and all the animals in the house to you for 12 days. I'm going to go cleanse. Yeah, she'd say, go cleanse at your nearest attorney's office. It's a different life for Aaron Rogers than a Brady or a Peyton Manning. And when I read that IG post, I kind of laughed. I thought it almost read like something from the onion. The idea of Peyton Manning or Drew Brees or Tom Brady with big families dropping that, the 12-day cleanse, it just, it's really hard to relate to. And I've always taken incredible pride at both the SBN and Fox and at IHeart Radio to be self-contained as a host.

I don't need management. I really don't. I couldn't tell you the last time I met with Fox management. I told them when I came over, I said, you know, I don't, I don't really need a boss. If you're mad at me, once a year, come yell at me. But the show, I know how to do a show I've been doing. doing it for 20 years. And I take great pride in that. And because of that, I have very little patience for high maintenance people because I've always taken great pride in being resilient

and low maintenance. When I look at Aaron Rogers and this constant drama and this need to publicize things and manipulate things, I just think he would wear me out. I think as a coach, he would wear me out. I think it's a general manager he could wear me out. And that's why I don't necessarily feel the way that many do about Aaron. I would not give up five first round picks for Aaron Rogers. There is no proof that Aaron Rogers plays his best football in the postseason. There's proof Brady does. There's proof Matt Stafford in fourth quarters plays his best football. But there is no proof in the playoffs, even at home, as a favorite, that Aaron Rogers plays his best football in those games. I would actually, because I do think Russell Wilson adds a leadership dimension and a mobility dimension that Aaron doesn't offer, I would give up more for Russell Wilson.

I also think he's closer to his prime. I think he's still in it. So I just, I kind of look at the Aaron Rogers IG. and I think you just have to bake in a lot of things. We talk about Tom Brady's age. How much would you give up for Tom Brady, a first round pick? I probably wouldn't give up much more due to his age because of his recklessness. How much would you give up for Carson Wentz?

Now, we know you'd give up almost everything for Josh Allen, Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow, or Patrick Mahomes. But I look at right now with Aaron Rogers, between the drama and the maintenance and his postseason struggles, I don't think he's a full. five, six, first, second round pick guy anymore. I think if I was Denver, I would really like to have him, and I'd give up a couple of number ones. But that's about it. I think there are some emotional quotient issues with Aaron that he can be very taxing on a staff, very taxing on the front office.

And I think you have to bake that in. I mean, listen, if we're going to discount Jimmy Garoppolo, who's been to more Super Bowls, than Aaron Rogers has in the last three years. If we're going to discount him because of injuries or wence because of recklessness, despite having 27 TDs and seven picks with a bad receiving core, I think you have to take some points off Aaron's value based on this constant drama, walking on eggshells,

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Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. Walk a mile in my shoes. We've all felt left out. And for some, that feeling lasts. more than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it belonging begins with us.org. Brought to you by the ad council. Walk a mile in my shoes. All right, my buddy Ryan Rosillo, I bring him on the herd all the time. I'd never yet bring him on a podcast because mostly because he's busy as shit. I don't want to

bother him. But he's great. He's got great access. So how's this for breaking news, Rosillo? So this just came down. I want you to react to it. Your instant reaction. It's not. Wow. I'm not even ready. I know. I know. This is going to be amazing. Okay. So J.J. Reddick went on this morning and talked about Zion and said, like, hey, man, he's a disengaged teammate. Well, he'd know, right? Like, that's access. That's why you pay guys. So Scott Kushner, who covers the Pelicans, comes out on Twitter and says, J.J. Reddick's a Duke guy, a CAA guy. And somebody with a grudge against David Griffin, here's what it's interesting. He goes, for him to light up Zion as a bad teammate and not invested in. the franchise or his career is the most damning condemnation I can think of short of a current

teammate doing it, to which I would say, yeah, that's why you pay him to be an analyst, because most athletes or analysts won't use that access. I thought when JJ said it today, I didn't watch it live, but I thought, shit, that is powerful. And I'm a Zion guy. I thought he was so joyful and fun. But I'm going to support JJ Redick on this. Like, that's why you pay, you and I have complained privately. you pay guys big money, they never give you anything.

And they have axes you and I sometimes can't get, right? Yeah, this is one that I, you know, look, I know you're a subscriber to the Rusillo podcast, but I've been on this since last summer. My information had been that Zion was a pretty detached guy from the team. I mean, I was a joke in the other day. Before the All-Star break, there was one story that said he'd be good to go in two weeks. The same day, there was another story that said, need second surgery, maybe out for the season. So I'm like, okay.

And as you know, there's a difference between when I say, hey, I'm just talking out loud. I'm thinking out loud. Like, what about this? Here's how I feel about this. And there are other times where I'll say, you know, the read I get on this. So I've done like three Zion videos. And I'm with you, Colin. I love him as a player.

I loved his joy. His only season at Duke. Remember, he turns his ankle, the weird sneaker thing. And then people are like, why would you go back and play? Like, these people that just hate college athletics and maybe hate sports in general, but are just on TV talking about, which is an entirely different subject. But Zion's like, look, I want to beat. North Carolina, I want to maybe win a national championship, go to Final Four.

Like, that's why I came here. Let's go ahead and do that. I'm like, good for him. He actually just wants to play. So we have now in a very short amount of time seen a completely different version of him. And based on what JJ says, who knows it better than I do, because he's connected to it. But also backing up, everything that I had heard is that this is becoming untenable. And it's not as big of a story because Zion, luckily for him, has drafted behind all the attention on Hardin.

and on Simmons and on the Kyrie stuff. So now that we're starting to learn more about the Zion deal and that JJ would go on first take and light him up. And then CJ McCollum, who is really smart, as you know. And when he said that to Kenny Smith, like, hey, I didn't even talk to this guy yet. He didn't hold back. He wanted us to know that. Yes.

So this is a very disappointing story not only based on Zion's commitment to being a pro athlete, but also how detached he's been from the team. And that's where I think this is all starting to build up to something that could get a lot more dramatic. This has been, let's not bury the headline. This is 2021 was a big cowherd year. If you were a stock and I were on CNBC and I were analyzing you, I'd say, look, a lot of people said he was at a ceiling. There wasn't really much room to growth. They kind of reached their market share.

I go, but you know what? Between Westbrook and Mayfield, we still seem some upside potential in this guy. That's why I'd probably sell you now. I think I'd sell you now based on you maximizing the value of your Baker and Westbrook positions. I don't know. The volume is, we're getting guys like Rosillo on the volume. I think I got some growth here for the next two years. You felt so bad about being right about Baker, which again, I thought was a little personal at times.

You then posted a picture of him at your friend David Slay's restaurant. And because he was polite at the restaurant, you felt like, hey, you know, I'm a real straight shooter. I've been hard on Baker Mayfield. but he didn't flip tables over at my friend's restaurant, so he's okay in my book. You know what? Is that I do always think that I've got to be fair. Like, I will admit, I think Aaron Rogers is incredibly needy.

He's just not my kind of guy at all. I mean, I've broken off friendships because guys were high maintenance. Two things I break off a friendship. You're a shitty tipper or you're high maintenance. I don't know about his tip. but he is so high maintenance. By the way, let me segue to you. Let me pivot to you.

You got to watch out for this. Because when you're a good looking guy, you get close to 40 and you've never been married, no kids. Yeah. You know what happens is you start, you have a high IQ. You've got to maintain your high EQ.

Because what happens is, I mean, I talked about this in the intro. If I went to... This sounds like Vince Vaughn right now. This is... It reminds me more than Vince Vaughn. This is McConaughey,

a director's cut outtake from Wolfel Wall Street when he's talking to DiCaprio. Go ahead. If I went to Anne and said, hey, babe, I'm going to take a 12-day cleanse. You got the kids. You got the house. You got the dogs. I'll see you in like two Thursdays.

She would literally look at me and say, get out. Go stay at a hotel. But when you're 40, no kids, it's the Oberman thing. I love Bill Maher, but it's like you become the center of your universe. Kids humble you. Relationships humble you. animals humble you. I'm cleaning shit out of my yard four times a day with my dogs.

And so you got to be careful, Rosillo, because your life right now is working out, crushing a podcast, and eating steaks. You've got to be careful. It's a fair observation, I would admit. You know, when people try to tell me like, hey, kids completely round you out, it's not that they make you happy all the time. It's that they bring you to even, right? They bring you to even, whether.

whether it's their support and the younger age is unconditional love or their hatred for you as they grow older. And then it kind of just makes you go, all right, whatever issues I have to deal with, I got to try to get my 14-year-old to stop hating me. I understand these things. I do understand the things without understanding it, which is what I try to explain to people, but then, I don't know, people never want to hear it. They never want to hear from somebody that's older and doesn't have any kids. And then I'll just think like, hey, you do realize there's like seven billion of us. Like, there's a lot of people that have had kids. So, it's like, you know, see, you're pushing back a little bit.

You know, didn't Anne essentially do that to you, though? Oh, she broke up me seven times. I mean, seriously. Yeah. Right. No, I'm just mean like if you said, hey, I'm taking off for a couple weeks. She kind of moved. Yeah, I mean, listen, I mean, Anne was, it was, it was really funny for two people that were in love.

It was, we did. We had a lot of conflict. I mean, it was. I'm not talking back in the day. I'm not trying to get into your business. No, I'm fine with that. on something. Right. But she just doesn't deal with my, you know, she's not going to deal with anything. Like if I throw stuff at her, she just throws it right back. But see, this is what I need. I need somebody who likes me, but not so much they want to see me every day. That's right. Because that's what I would need in my life. And that's why I think what you have is perfect, man. So who's your, I don't want, well, I am going to get personal. So are you dating right now? You're not getting this on. No. You're not dating. Oh, Jesus. So you're just out there throwing fastballs. And that. And. You're just out there throwing fastballs. And, and seeing who can catch it.

That's dangerous. Jesus. You're just throwing out. I don't even know what that means. You got 30 pound test line. You got bait on there. You're throwing it out there and just whatever shark grabs it, you're reeling home. I don't know if that's, I finished a feature script the other day.

So I was very excited about that. I'm dating my work, Colin. Oh, God, that sounds awful. It really does. I'm in a relationship with art. Oh, good hell. I was trying to make an Aaron Rogers. I was going to say.

So let's pivot to that. So here's how. I read the Instagram. It was a lot of hearts. It felt like Monday. I didn't make it. I got a couple lines. I couldn't do it.

It had an onion feel to it. I was like, Aaron, honestly, stop sipping tequila. Like scale back. When you start drinking, you start kind of being, you either get snarky or sweet. He got, I mean, he went off a little bit, right? Like, I read it and I was like, this is a Hallmark card, man. This is one of those bad cheesy posters you buy it Hallmark. You know, like wine is good for the.

soul, get drunk on it. It's like, no, I just want to get drunk without the soul. I don't need the soul. Yeah, I don't want, yeah, I don't want any soul. I just want to, you know, feel a little loose. I'll always, I'm always amazed just in general of the pursuit. I just don't have that in me. I don't know what that is. Maybe it's just the efficiency. Maybe it's personal P-E-R. Where when I'll hear about these people that will be like, oh, you know, for a year or so, I turned them down. I'm like, fuck. Like, if I don't get a text back that has some sort of emotion to it, I'm like, I'm out, you know? So he was, he was saying, it's like, you let me chase. I still would like to know

how hard of a cell was it multiple MVP starting quarterback in the NFL? I can't imagine it was just like I don't know I don't see it. Yeah. You know, I have... Are we being too personal about this? No. I don't know. I don't want to be unfair here.

No, we're not being unfair. I mean, listen, I just think this started with Aaron's a lot of work. It's like you're not you're not high maintenance at all. Like, I'll call you and do it. Hey, dude, steak's tonight on me. You're like, no, it's on me. let's do it tomorrow. Literally, we'll talk for a minute. You are the lowest maintenance guy. But there are things with Aaron. And I'm like, and I said this in the preamble to you. I said, you know, we dock Brady because of his age and Garapolo because of his health and Wentz because of his risk factor. Ryan, if I'm a general manager, Aaron's a lot of work. He's a lot of

work for the staff. He's a lot of work for the front office. I'm not giving up four firsts for him. I think you have to, I mean, I'm serious about this. Like, we dock quarterbacks based on age and health. And Aaron, to me, is not as valuable as Matt Stafford on the open market. Stafford is like a total adult, low maintenance, great in the fourth. Like, I feel like with Matt, he just does his shit, goes home to his wife and kids, and I don't worry. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

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A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care which I'm saying. Yep, that's me. Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits. the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with a little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English.

Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84's big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but yeah, yeah, literally. But just so y'all know. I mean, at this point,

this is the second episode where we've discussed, correct. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence.

Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me. and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month,

I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it,

and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust.

I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast. Learn the Hardway. Open your free Our Heart Radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. About him. Aaron's gotten to the point. where it's like, man, it's a little like Durant.

You've got to walk on eggshells a lot with them, right? Well, first of all, I'm very pro-Durant, even though I think we could talk about any one of our single favorite athletes ever. And if we wanted to make a negative argument about him or an anti-argument, we do this for a living. I could come up with some stuff. But I just don't even, like, I've almost made a rule recently. It's what I like 90% of yet. I don't want to spend time on pointing out to 10% all the time.

You and I have disagreed about Rogers in the past. I think you were harder on him than I was. I think I've defended him throughout his entire career. I've loved watching him play. He's going to go down as one of the all-time greats as far as his ability. His resume is not going to be close to some of the other top guys. But I started to come to your side of the argument in a little bit through this last season because I kept thinking, look, you need to be more specific about what is so bad.

That's what you said. You're mad about Jordan. Love, I get it. I also think Brady should have been pissed about Garapolo or the time they took Kevin O'Connell, I think, in the third round. Do you remember that? well, he's now a head coach of the Vikings. You don't remember his playing career. It was a total whiff.

You're like, why do you have to get cute with this shit? And so I felt like with Rogers, I mean, you need to convince me that you're basically Matthew Stafford. Like, imagine, like, I'm looking at him going, you guys have a really good roster. No one's ever had a problem with this front office until you've pointed out. They've actually spent in free agency with this new regime, much more they did with Ted Thompson. And yet they've always put this together. And if I really wanted to get in Rogers case, you start pointing his. some of these home playoff losses, and I'm not even going there with it.

So I didn't feel like he was convincing enough for me to believe in all the drama, which would then lead towards how high maintenance is this guy. Now, to say, is he worth it? Think about some of these franchises that go easily two decades before they have any answer at the position. If you know you can bring him in, even at his age, he's still worth it. It actually kind of mirrors your Michael Porter Jr. point that we didn't really finish. I heard stuff. I also heard the most important thing, that he was the biggest medical red flag teams that had seen in 10 plus

years. But no one cares about the tow truck. No one cares about some of his political. No one cares about that stuff if he's healthy in scoring 20 a game. And I'm not saying no one, but you understand in the scheme of what we do in talking sports. If you're productive, those things don't matter as much. If for Rogers, he's still as productive as anyone playing the position, although I agree, like, this is taking a turn to last year plus where I've thought, how are you this mad when the team has been this good. Right? Like, they're not going four and 12 every year.

Make sure to check out the Dremont Green Show. I brought Dremont Green into the volume because one of the more entertaining voices in sports, unique perspective, understands behind the rope. Also, chops up with guests like Gary Payton, Zach Levine, Tracy McGrady. Make sure download the Dremont Green Show wherever you get your podcast, only on the volume Podcast Network. And we're back with breaking news. Coke Zero Sugar might be the best Coke ever.

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Trees? Sure. Know what else grows in the forest? Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too. Because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is closer than you think.

Find a forest near you and start exploring at Discovertheforest.org. Brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the Ad Council. All right. This is one of my favorite guys that's ever written a column. I think sometimes columnists, not all, but a lot of columnists. To get it to be a columnist, you have to be a great writer.

But sometimes when a columnist becomes a columnist, they forget how good of a reporter they were. And what Ian does, and I think you do this better than any columnist in the country, you're still a dogged reporter and a columnist. So you remember your roots. I'm not done with your book. I have about 30 pages to go. The book is called The Rise and Rain of Mike Shoshchewski. It is absolutely fantastic.

Thank you. Your level of reporting is insane. I don't even, as I read it, I'm like, okay, how the hell do you know this stuff? You're going back to Army games. But here's what's fascinating. We forget, we are so impatient with young people these days. Mike Shishvsky had a losing record at Army. five years into Duke, they were getting sandblasted by ACC teams, and they gave him a contract extension.

And I think that gets lost in this, is that you go back to John Wooden, as you know, Ian. He didn't win big for a long time. But let's go back and discuss that this book is so fun. It really is, when you bring in the Bob Knight stuff, it is jet fuel to this book. It is just you can't get enough of this. But let's go back. How the heck did he get that Duke job? I know because I read it.

He had a losing record in Army. And in fact, Bob Knight was a much better coach at Army than Shoshevsky. It would be easy to go, well, Knight's the great coach. You're a shadow of Knight. How? Why did he get it? Well, Knight helped him get it. And thanks for the kind words, Colin.

But Knight was a fairly big advocate of Mike getting that job at Duke. Now, he was 9 and 17 that final season. And Tom Butters, the AD at Duke, deserves so much credit for having the, you know what, to hire him at 9 and 17 coming out of Army. Steve Vesendak was an official in the Athletic Department former player. And he was an advocate, too. He had seen Mike coached on me and was a pretty big believer in him and sort of, hey, you don't know how to pronounce his name. You certainly don't know how to spell it. But the guy's a really good defensive coach.

You, Tom, believe in defense. let's give this guy a chance. And Butters loved him in the interview process, and he just had a hard time pulling the trigger. How am I going to sell this to an ACC fan base? Bill Foster just took us to the national championship game. I'm going to hire a 9 and 17 coached an Army nobody's ever heard of, but he did.

Those early years were brutal, and the boosters were calling for his head. Fans, students, faculty members wanted him out. He lost, you said ACC opponents. He lost a Wagner at home. Wagner, if you go back and look at that Waggner, team in the ECAC Metro, I believe they were in. They were terrible in that conference. They were losing to LIU, St. Francis of New York, and they beat Duke at Duke. And that was the point where

it really looked like Mike could not survive. Somehow he hung in there. Butters out of nowhere gives him a contract extension. And the rest is history. He got that recruiting class, Billis, Allery, Dawkins, Henderson, and really, that saved him. Without that recruiting class, he gets fired. Finally, you have a book I can see behind you, Belichick, which was, again, classic Ian O'Connor, dogged journalism and reporting. So I saw a story this weekend, Brady, and, you know, I don't know what to believe on social media. I mean, the less I read it, the better. But that Brady would consider the 49ers. And I do think there are jobs. I mean, you came back and you're a columnist in New York.

Those are prestigious jobs. You didn't need to be a columnist, but there are calls you get in your life and go, that's worth having a glass of wine with my wife and talking about. Right? And I do think San Francisco, Kyle Shanahan, it's not an offense that needs Tom to be. He matches Tom's intensity. They're both very smart, very intense. There's a Belichickian feel to it. You know that's important to Tom.

Ariens is too loose. it would be an upgrade over Jimmy G maybe Tom's got a little of that it's his hometown it was his favorite team I think he has it's also an offense that doesn't Ian ask the quarterback to carry them it's really a run centric offense

do you think he take the call and give it a week or two thought not only do I think he take the call Colin I think he's coming back I never thought this was the end of Tom Brady's a football player in fact when he made his announcement. I don't think he used the word retirement in it. And so, listen, I had a conversation with him on the phone for about 45, 50 minutes, 2017. We were talking about him

playing at age 47, 48, never mind 45. But he did set 45 as a goal. He never falls short of his goals. And he actually did. So I don't think this was planned. I do believe, and I always thought this, that something happened down there that hasn't really fully been detailed yet. And Anyway, I never thought he was going to love Bruce Ariens style the opposite of Belichick with a motto, winner lose, we booze. That is not Tom Brady's philosophy on football in life. So I think he'll either play for the 49ers. I do think he'll take a year off.

But I think he comes back and either plays for the 49ers or Josh McDaniels in Las Vegas. So those would be my two franchises to watch. And I think people will say, you can't take a year off at 45, come back. and win a Super Bowl at 46. Well, he's now created yet another challenge for him to conquer by stepping aside for a year and doing it with yet another franchise. So now I'm going to get eight. I'm going to be two ahead of Michael Jordan.

And I'm going to do it with a third franchise. And you're telling me I can't do that at 46 and 47. Well, guess what? I'm going to do it. So to be honest with you, Colin, I would be shocked if he doesn't play again. You just convinced me. You've literally rocked my world. I literally, well, you know him better than I do.

Well, no, I don't. I don't. I do not. He did not talk to me for the book. I don't have any sort of personal relationship. Well, that was my only one-on-one with him was for ESPN.com. And it was about five years ago. And it was long, but I do not pretend to know him.

but I know a lot of his friends and have talked to them extensively about this and other subjects, about Belichick a lot over the years. And they would be surprised if he doesn't play again. And that Aryan's relationship I never thought was going to last. It was productive while it did last, obviously. But he went to a coach who is the exact opposite of Bill Belichick. And it was a short-term thing. And now I think he's ready to try it with a different franchise.

And again, get to ring number eight, be too ahead of Jordan, maybe go down as the greatest American team sport athlete ever. Certainly that would enhance his claim. Yeah, I never liked Ariens taking repeated shots at Tom publicly. I think you could do it once twice. Sometimes it sounded personal, a little harsh. I think that's Bruce's authentic personality. But, you know, in my years of covering athletes, even the gracious ones,

you have to use discretion when criticizing them publicly. And Colin, I was at his first game in New Orleans, I believe, and they lost. First game with Tampa Bay. And Ariens criticized them after that game in his postgame presser. I couldn't believe it. I remember writing about that. Belichick never would have done that. Bill was tough on Tom at all times in practices and film study and so forth.

But criticizing Tom Brady after game, he did that very rarely over two decades. Ian O'Connor, Coach K, the rise and reign of Mike Shoshchevsky, absolute must read. My friend, it was great as always. Thank you so much. Say hi to everybody. His wife, by the way, years ago, I had some speaking engagement at a bookstore. And somebody asked me about Ian O'Connor. And I said, I love Ian O'Connor.

Oh, he's one of my favorites. It was your wife. I told her to ask that question. So that was me. Great seeing you, man. Hey, thank you. Thanks for doing me a favor, Colin. Appreciate it.

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