The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast Prime Cuts- Take The Under On The Chiefs, You Can’t Compare NBA Eras, Weak 2025 NFL Draft Class

Episode Date: April 5, 2025

Colin’s top takes of the week! First, he’s joined by John Middlekauff, host of “3 and Out”! They start with the draft evaluation for Shedeur Sanders and Colin argues that regardless of where he gets drafted, he’ll likely be the third best quarterback in his division and whether that analysis gets factored into his draft position (4:15). They dissect the Giants roster after signing Russell Wilson and whether it would make sense to pass on Shedeur and draft a different position of need (8:30). John explains why a “high floor” isn’t really a thing when it comes to drafting whereas “high ceiling” is VERY real (12:45).  Finally, they look at the over/under win totals and make their predictions for who will over/under perform their expectations in Vegas. (16:00). Then he’s joined by Jason Timpf, host of “Hoops Tonight”! They react to LeBron’s comments on Pat McAfee’s show comparing NBA eras and explain why it’s completely pointless because of how much the game has changed (33:00) They debate whether a dominant regular season will translate into playoff success for a young OKC Thunder roster, and whether they have a weakness that could sink them in a series (36:30). Finally, they discuss whether there’s anything the NBA can do to avoid tanking when transformational talent is so easy to identify early and incentivizes teams to tank (42:00). (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) Visit fubotv.com/colin to get $50 off 2 months off Fubo Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates!  #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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You know him and you love him. The podcast, Three and Out, loves his golf as well. As we get ready for the Masters, that's around the corner. But we've got some NFL stuff to talk about. So we got into this discussion on the show today. And I said, you know, obviously when the NFL had to write almost a, you know, a billion dollar check for CTE, the game got safer really fast. And you can't touch quarterbacks.

You really can't go high or at the wrong angle on anybody but a running back going forward. That's why it really makes sense to have two and three running backs in the rotation because it's the last position you can really clobber from any angle at any time. And I said because it's become such an offensive league, there's only one way to win with exceptional offensive quarterback play. And I said, here's the thing about Schuhr Sanders. If you're Cleveland, if you draft him, He is at best, the third best quarterback in that division.

He'll never be as good as Burrow. He's not that kind of prospect, and he's not Lamar Jackson. If the Steelers hit on a quarterback in the next two years, he could be four. He's not an exceptional athlete, not an exceptional arm. And if, for instance, the Giants wanted him, he's not going to be Jaden Daniels, and he's not special athletically like Jalen Hertz, he may be better than DAC, but again, he would be third best quarterback in a division. And so my takeaway on Chaturre Sanders is, do teams think like that?

Like, it only takes one coach to love Bo Nix, right? Like, Sean Payton loved him because there's a little bit of a doppelganger with Drew Brees. But when I look at Chadour and I like him, I can't argue that Burrell Lamar, Chadur is three. I can't argue that Jalen and Jaden Daniels, Chadour is three. and those kind of quarterbacks are infrequent playoff quarterbacks. Does scouts think like that? Yeah, I mean, these conversations definitely come up not only right now, but throughout the fall when your scouts are going in.

The problem with that mindset, you would never draft a quarterback because who the hell is ever going to be better than Lamar Jackson or Joe Burrell, right? Or, you know, you're never going to, how are you ever going to find, like, a 23-year-old Matt Stafford? Like, more than likely, you're not going to draft this high again. And you know two names that, I, hear come up a lot, or definitely one, and I'll use another name, is Andy Dalton, and I would throw

Derek Carr in there as well. You know, I think people that say, you know, that type skill set. Historically, Shador Sanders, those guys went, picked 35 and picked 36. I think 10 years ago, he's going in the second round, and people are very excited about him. Jimmy Garoflo as well, at the end of the second round. Andy Dalton has made 168 starts in the NFL, and he was in a division with a fantastic Ravens defense and Rothesberger in his prime. And they were going to the playoffs all the time. Carr took a dysfunctional Raider team twice to the playoffs. So if Shador is in that mold, it's really on the organization.

And if you're the Browns, Andrew Barry's pretty good GM. Stefansky's pretty good coach. They got a lot of talent on the team. So if he can just become that Andy Dalton, Jimmy Garoppolo, Derek Carr, yeah, you're not going to beat, you know, if Lamar Jackson or Joe Burrow were on, they're going to beat you, but you still have a lot of other games throughout the season. So if you can build the team well enough, can't you compete to make the playoffs? I mean, they're drafting two over a hole right now.

Right. And granted, that's because, I mean, Deshaun became one of the worst quarterbacks we've ever seen. Their team just fell apart this year. But more than likely, they're not going to draft this high again. Now, is it an quote-unquote overdraft? Yeah. But the reason Mack Jones and Daniel Jones and those type guys became disastrous, you couldn't even functioning with them as your starting quarterback, right? Andy Dalton for seven straight years

with the Bengals, they did a good job. You could just, every year you went in, like, we're going to win 10 plus games. The Browns would die to do that. Their owner, who can be a little off the wall sometimes. I give them credit for making the comment the other day. You never hear that. Admitting, we still owe the guy $90 million. It's a disaster. It's like, well, yeah, that's true. Well, yeah, they never say that. He is spending a lot of cash. The salary cap's different than cash being spent. Jeffrey Lurie talked about that I saw today. They are spending, I think they've spent more money over the last four years in cash

than any other team in the league. It's like well over a billion dollars. So, he is not in this to lose, but the betting markets have Abdul Carter as the heavy favorite to be the number two overall picks. So maybe they're thinking Shador Sanders, what the hell is the difference of Shadour Sanders? I know you like

Riley Leonard's of the world and those type guys. We can get a guy like that in the second or third round, and maybe he can be like our cousins or DAC. They They also talk and think like that. So maybe they go, I'd rather have Riley Leonard or Kyle McCord and Abdul-Carter than Shador Sanders and whoever else we would get in the second round. So I think you're doing a lot of those conversations.

There's a lot of people saying that Jackson Dart has a better arm than Shadur Sanders. So you might as well just wait and draft Jackson-Dart, although I would say he's not nearly as accurate as Shadur-Sanders. And accuracy to me is like a real thing. Maybe the most important thing. Jalen Milrose mechanical. I think he has to fall into the right hands or he could just be Anthony Richards at 2.0. Yeah, I've said Kyle McCourt at Syracuse.

I take him in the second round and feel pretty good. I will say this, though, that, you know, people say it's not a very good draft. And I'll tell you, I look at certain teams that need skill players, like the New York Giants. if they got Travis Hunter with their first pick, and then their second pick got, is it Trayvon Henderson from Ohio State? Yeah. With Malique neighbors, I look at that and I think to myself, oh, that's a great draft for the New York Giants.

Because I like their head coach as an offensive coach. And I think Russell will actually be a better version of the Pittsburgh Russell because I think Mike Tomlin's culture is years behind Brian Dayball offensively. Is there a team in this draft that you look at and think, you know, it's not a great draft, but what they need running back, tight-end defensive tackle, there's a surplus of in this draft. Well, I think if you look at the Giants, if you're Brian Dayball, people go, why would they sign both those two guys? Because Brian Dayball's coaching for his job.

Shador Sanders does not help him at all in 2025. So he can take two quarterbacks, let the cream rise out of the two and go back and forth. He would go all in on Travis Hunter. he would want players that help him win immediately. So if you tell me they get Travis Hunter and they're starting running back or starting tight end or just another more explosive player, yeah, I mean, I think the Giants are just much more feasible. You watch them at the end of the year last year when they had some injuries.

It's like that. This team has a lot of parallels with the Patriots, right? Just no talent, what's going on here? But all of a sudden you get Malik neighbors, which he has a concussion issues. You know, you get another concussion that's a little scary, but there is no disputing his physical gifts. I mean, he's a freak. I mean, that's one. You look back, and this is the hard part about the draft. There is no such thing as a high floor because any player might not work out. It doesn't matter how your floor is determined once you get in the NFL. All I heard last year was

like, Marvin Harrison's floor is so high. Malik's, Malik could be boom or bust. And then you watch, you're like, you don't think the Arizona Cardinals regret not going Malik neighbors over Marvin Harrison, Jr.? Because they do. And the Giants benefited from them making that choice. And I think we use that term a lot. Sealings are real. Like certain guys have higher ceilings. Cam Ward's ceiling is obviously higher than Shador Sanders. But a floor, like, we've seen all sorts of players not work out in the end. You never know. And we always played this game a couple years later. Should have taken him. Should have taken him. No one knew that information as we sit here a month away from the draft. If we would have known Richard Sherman and

George Kittle and these guys exist in the fifth round, they would have been top 20 picks. So it is a little bit of a crap shoot and I think it gets more difficult in a class like this, which obviously there are going to be a lot of really good players that come out of this draft, but no one feels that confident on a lot of these guys. You know, it's like, well, how high is Mason Graham's ceiling? Or it's like, what's his name, the LSU tackle?

It's like, well, yeah, arm length kind of matters at Lept tackle, but what if in five years he just becomes an all-pro guard, but you don't take an all-pro guard probably at five overall, right? You'd rather have a tackle. So there's just a lot of unknown, which I think a lot of these, the scouting community is just, there's like, yeah, it's kind of coin flip year. In your years of being a scout, I mean, you have your top 150 players, like, and you also have the red players that you won't draft, either personnel, personality problems, character

issues or injuries. Are there any dramatic moves with two to three weeks to go in the draft process when, in your experience? Yeah, I would say, you know, the information, most of these teams, you know, with the owners meeting, so all the GMs and coaches are flying home, if not last night today. And by either the end of the week or first thing next week, all your scouts come in. And the scouts and your, you know, your personnel people, some of your other executives, have been on campuses over the last month, right? Meeting with coaches, other personnel at those schools. Certain guys, you don't have to worry about anything off the field. Like, they're just, it's just perfect.

you know, Andrew Lux, but there are a ton of those guys in the draft where it's like you don't even, but there are some guys, maybe not legal, like they've been arrested or, you know, crazy bad things, but they're just like, how much does he really like football, which might be a non-negotiable in the organization? Like the Ravens don't draft many people that aren't addicted to football, watch them play over the last 20 years. So you're just like, maybe you've heard some stuff and you bring that information back to your GM, to your head coach, and that can sway stuff. So it's not like a dramatic unless someone gets in trouble and that becomes public knowledge. But it's basic things like, yeah, I've heard some things that this guy might not be quite what we thought as a person.

Because I think when you know a lot of these people, when you talk to coaches and executives, most people fail, especially drafted in the first couple rounds. Like they're meeting a lot of the requirements of height, weight, speed, plated sweet schools. It's usually the person that fails. focus, screw around, not dialed in, doesn't really like football. Football's not like baseball where you just get to play every day or basketball where you play three times a week. You practice basically five days a week and you play once and you only hit 17 of those games. For the majority of the league, you don't go to the playoffs.

And then you get OTAs, you get training camp. It's a lot of sitting in a room watching tape, getting yelled at, getting up early, going to bed sore. It's not, you know, Ray Lewis, you pay me Monday through Saturday, Sundays are for free. There's a lot to that. It's why the best players typically are football addicts at all the positions, right? The JJ Watts, the Trent Williams, you just go around, George Kittal, you know, and Travis Kelsey forever, all the patriotype guys, the human being, but you've got to be careful with overvaluing that because you do need to be able to play. And that's, I think, Belichick got in trouble at the end of his career. It's hard.

I mean, you run a company, hiring people. You've had a lot of people on your show for years before even the volume. You're dealing with human beings with a lot of pressure, with a very public job. It's, we all shit on it when guys miss and it's fair sometimes. But it's also like, this is really, really difficult to, you know, pick a guy. I hear this a lot. Why can't the chiefs find a tackle? Well, it's like, guys, they draft 31 or 32nd every single year.

they don't have that much cap space, and I don't know if you've checked free agency, usually Hall of Fame tackles don't hit free agency. It's like, what do you want them to do? Like, Lane Johnson isn't usually sitting there at Pick 32. And when you're drafting at Pick 32, you're also drafting at the end of the second round and the third round. It's much easier to draft when you're the Titans and you dictate every round than it is when you're the Bills or the Ravens or the Chiefs.

So the overs and unders are coming out. So I want us to give the audience, have some fun here. Two overs and two unders, and I'll start this. All the odds are provided by Draft King's sportsbook. So I'm going to give you an under, then you give me an under. And I'll give you another under, and then we'll do two favors. So my first under is the chiefs at 11.5. Okay, Joe Tuny was by farm.

and away the most had the most dexterity of any of their offensive linemen. He's gone. They are now crossing their fingers on a backup left tackle from San Francisco. They were 11 and 0 in one possession games, right? And now the division is much better. The coaching and the quarterback play, Bo Nixon year two. Gino Smith, if they get a running back in the first round, Gino Smith has a 106 passer rating in Seattle on play action passing.

Like if you give him a run game, Gino's very good on third and two, right? He's very good with play action passing, second and five, third and two, third and three. So I don't think I would take the under. Now, maybe they just go 11 and 6, but I think the division is going to be improved. quarterback play between Gino, second year bow. Again, I thought last year there were offensive line injuries with the Chargers. My guess is they'll be healthier. Okay, what say you?

Give me an under. Did you say 10.5 on that number? It's 11 and a half. Draft Kings has the Chiefs at 11.5. I would bet the under. Got you. They've won over 12 games. I think every year Mahomes has started beside one.

Yeah. But I hear you. It's, you can have a good year. I mean, they won a Super Bowl win in 11. I would say an under, I like. I do think the 49ers who are, the Rams won that division and were really good. And honestly, I mean, a couple of plays away from potentially beating the Eagles. Who knows, they might end up in the Super Bowl and win it.

They won it at 10 and 7, right? And they're a team going through a lot of transition. So the 49ers won six games, though they were in a lot of them. They kind of melted at the end. end in a lot of them. So I actually think a lot of people are going to think they're going to win like six or seven games. I think they're going to be better than people think. But once you start getting over 10, like 10 and a half, like you could win nine or 10 games, be that seven seed, hell, compete to win the division and have a good season. So I think the days, you know,

definitely this season that's going to be very dependent on young rookie players. Yeah, they have 12 draft picks. Yeah. I mean, we've seen the Rams the last couple of years. I don't know exactly. And they've been a fantastic team at the end of the year. They're not winning 12 games. So I think the Niners probably more likely to win nine or ten games. I also think that division is just going to be – you know, the Cardinals are just a tough game every time you play them. Obviously, the Rams are good. And Seattle going through a little bit of a transitional period, but their head coach, I think they're a pretty well-run operation.

Yeah, listen, they're one of my unders too at 10 and a half. Seattle? Yeah. They tried to get Greenlaw back from Denver. They did not want to lose Hufunga. Okay, those were two big defensive losses. And let's be honest, John, the Bosa's get hurt. When Bosa was off the field last year, they were not a very good defense.

They were really inconsistent. So now Hufunga's gone, Green law's gone, Bosa will miss a stretch, and it's not a great draft. So I don't think there's an impact player defensively. maybe if they got like Will Johnson at Corner from Michigan, I think that would be a really, really, you'd have to be happy with that. I agree. But, yeah, I think I have San Francisco as an under. So I have Kansas City.

You have San Francisco. I have San Francisco. Give me another under. I would say, I think there's a chance Miami is like one of the worst teams in the NFL. Like it would not shock me if you tell me, as you and I are sitting here doing a pre-draft a couple weeks, Miami's in the mix. Maybe they don't have the number one overall pick, but I could see them being like the Giants or the Patriots,

drafted in three or four. It would not shock me to see them struggle to win four or five games. I think they're going to be terrible. I thought that last year, and they just obviously when two is on the field, they're more functional. It would not surprise me at all if this Tyreek situation doesn't go away, and he ends up playing for another team this year.

I don't know if that trade would happen during the draft. I know they've pushed back against that, maybe at the end of training camp. But I just expect Miami to implode. I really do. I mean, I don't really like the Jets that much either. But like even last year, the Jets do have a lot of good players. Oh, absolutely.

I just don't think Miami has that many good players, and they are one concussion away from all of a sudden Zach Wilson's are starting quarterback. Yes. Okay, I'll give you an over. I think Brian Callahan's a good coach. I think Will Levis is a really, really bad, NFL quarterback. I don't think he was a great college quarterback. And so I look at the over

under on Tennessee. And, you know, it's five and a half. Some have had it at six and a half. I think they clear that bar easily. First of all, Cam Ward's a playmaker. And nobody's got real film on him. He didn't do a lot of straight pocket stuff in college. It was a lot of backyard stuff. And I think the league will take a while. And they did this with Jaden Daniels. It took a while to decode him. People were, Bo Nicks, you're not quite sure what he is. It's a weak division. The Jags could be bad. The Colts would be bad. Houston should be pretty good, but not great. I think I'm going to take the Titans over. I think it's a pretty weak schedule. I think Cam Ward is one of the only players in the draft that can equal wins. I think people think Callahan's a pretty

good coach. And Callahan didn't just lack trust in Will Levis. If you listened to his post-game comments after losses, he lost them three games straight out. And you watched his body language, he almost resented that Will Levis was getting in the way of wins. And so tightens to me are and over. Yeah, I don't think people, you know, we talk a lot about the Browns because of Watson because of Sean Watson's quarterback play, by the month in, no one was watching the Titans, their quarterback play was like historically poor. I mean, the turnovers and the sacks he was taking, it was, their defense was actually pretty good.

Yes. And like any team with a pretty good defense, when your offense is that crappy, by the time you get to like mid-November, they can't maintain that level of play because they're on the field so much. So if their offense is just solid, I'm with you. I mean, he's got his dad there coaching offensive line. Massive upgrade just based on talent alone. I would say this.

If you look at Vrable, like the linebacker version of Harbaugh, you know, wants to play defense, wants to run the ball, former players, just guys that just win. I think the Patriots were right up there with the Bears as one of the worst coach teams you will ever see last season. Why couldn't they go 9 and 8 this year? If you go, the jets are going to be awful. I think the dolphins are going to be worse. Listen, the bills, who cares? even if they sweep you, I can see the Patriots win in eight or nine games.

Listen, they were seven and a half draft kings. They are now up to eight and a half. So the sharps, it looks like, were all over the Patriots. So New England was one of my overs. And I said the other day on the air, I said, I think Vrable from Gerard Mayo is worth three points. I think Drake May is worth another point based on sophomore season. And I think it's reasonable assume, 190 million in free. agency and eight to nine draft picks is worth one and a half to two points.

So if they're just five and a half points to six points better, and again, you're talking about between the draft and free agency like eight to nine new starters and a couple of high end starters, you're talking about Drake May, potentially with a Travis Hunter. You're talking about the worst coach team to probably one of the seven to eight to nine best coach teams. That's five and a half to six points. They were three and six in one possession games with a rookie quarterback. If that's just six and three, you don't have to go nine and oh.

This is an eight to nine win team. And again, the jets are a bit lost. I agree with you. Miami's a mess. So I think New England's in play. I would say the other team would be, speaking of Harbaugh, the Chargers. You know, last year, I just didn't pull the trigger and he did exactly what he was the five seed.

Well, this year it's nine and a half. And everyone always gets off the scent with them during like free agency. Jim is not going to trade for D.K. Metcalfe and give him $150 million. He didn't do it last year. He's not going to do it this year. He won't do it next year. You know what he will do, though? In like the second round, all of a sudden, he will draft his starting tight end for the next seven years. And in the third round, find a defensive tackle that everyone's going to like, this guy's not that sexy, who will just be a starter for him for a long time.

Then you watch the season and you just go, God, their team is just physical and good. He has a really talented quarterback. Why couldn't they win 12 games? I mean, they're over under right now is nine and a half. I think they are a lock. I mean, Jim Harbaugh is now coached in the NFL five years and made the playoffs in four of them. So I don't know if they can overtake the chiefs, but it wouldn't shock me if it gets a little closer. And don't let free agency fool you.

He's never going to play and swim in that end of the pool. They are never going to do that. But, you know, you've talked about this huge advantage for Jim. All these kids coming in the draft, he's recruited them all, especially the good ones. he's going to know these guys. It's going to be a huge point of difference for him. I would expect them to have a good draft. His GM, I think is pretty good. I mean, look at last year. It's like, how did they pass on Malik Davis? I don't know. They just got their starting tackle for the next decade. So I think the Chargers, they fooled me is the wrong word. I just didn't have the Cajonis. Just because I was like, I don't know if their roster is quite good enough. They're not going to have great wide receivers. He typically never does, and he always wins. He won a national championship. He went to a Super Bowl. Like he's not exactly going to have Jerry Rice in his prime, and it's going to work out just fine. The finals are here, and the only thing for certain, it's the last time to bet on college basketball this season. We've got amazing games.

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huge news. We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we

actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. And we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down?

Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast where people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad,

Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in terms. tennis. And I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs and on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset and what

it really takes to win on Clay. Jenchian went. I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lina Rabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now and I actually can win on any surface because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman. documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, you're going to hear them more regularly now over the next seven weeks. Jason Tim, host of Hoops Tonight. You know, there was a comment I thought was interesting. LeBron was on a podcast or a show. And he talked about, you know, Janus would have scored 250 points back in the 70s. And I laughed because I thought, no, because they'd foul him and he can't hit free throws. So it wouldn't work.

But, you know, it's interesting because I grew up with the 70s basketball and I loved it. And I do think sometimes, you know, the players since in 1973 have grown half an inch. The NBA was big and athletic then. Now, nutrition's better, travels better. But it was, I didn't love LeBron saying that. I was like, LeBron, Wilt and Jerry West played in the 70s. Dr. Jay played in the 70s. Bill Walton played in the 70s.

I don't know why. It didn't bother me, but it was one of those I heard it. And I thought, no, Janus, now, Janus may have average, 40, but he can't shoot. Like, he can't shoot. What did you make of that comment and your thoughts about generational comparisons. Well, for that for that exact reason, like you mentioned, the size, if it was not just size back then, spacing was poor back then.

And in general, like Janus would have been running into a lot of bodies. That said, I firmly believe Janus would average 40, 45 if he played in that era, just simply because it would be like a man amongst boys in terms of the athletes that he'd be competing with. I just, a couple things. I don't see any point in comparing era to era in general. I mean, like, we talked about the seven. like it was not that long ago. That's 50 years ago. It's a half century ago. And in general,

there's just been so many changes schematically. There's been so many changes in player development and the skill. Like, you know what's always so funny to me when you go back and you watch basketball players in the 60s and 70s, the jump shots are all weird looking. Yeah. And one of the reason why the jumps shots are all weird looking is they didn't get to go on YouTube or turn on the TV and watch their favorite players play when they were kids. They taught themselves at a shoot. Everyone today kind of shoots more or less the same type of jump shot. And some people look weird, but most people shoot the same with golf swings, by the way. The unique golf swing is over.

Exactly, because now it's been optimized. We've optimized it now. You reach your hand into the cookie jar. You start from the legs. No wasted motion. We don't want to hitch in the shot, you know. And so it's one of those things where like we've just perfected this sport in so many different ways.

And, you know, one of the things that I dislike about it, and it kind of goes back to what we talked about when we were talking about Stephen A. Smith a couple weeks ago. But when you, I don't believe in stooping down to that level. You, by the way, are, you have a saying that you've used over the years that I've loved. You said, I can have an opinion and you can have an opinion on my opinion. I don't need to have an opinion on your opinion of my opinion, which, by the way, is like a foundational thing that I lean on when I'm doing what I do too. And like, one of the big things that I look at there is like, okay, LeBron, you're playing basketball. okay, these old guys are trashing your era.

What good does it do to then step in and then be disrespectful to their era? That doesn't serve a purpose, in my opinion. It kind of is, it's stooping to that level. It doesn't forward the conversation. And like from that same point, I feel like LeBron is just shouldn't be the guy sending that type of message that he's trying to send. That said, like, I think in general, LeBron's just sick and tired of getting criticized by like the MJ clan, the throwback, like the old league,

better type of clan. And I think he's just sick of it. And I think he's acting out. You know, it's interesting. The other day I was saying about OKC, I'm like, I know they're going to win into some series. I know they're really good. I'm not doubting that brilliant GM.

I don't think SGA will quite get that whistle in the postseason, but he'll get a whistle. If Chet Holmgren's healthy, they've got some offensive options. I do worry about their young players in big road games. You know, everything changes. And no sport in our country changes more from regular season to postseason. I mean, I'm watching here today, you've got to fight in the NBA Minnesota's coaches. And you're getting feisty now and playoffs seating.

And it's like it changes. The game, it's outside of the COVID year, men winning the playoffs. Young men can do really well in the regular season. But the one thing about Oklahoma City, Tom Tolbert texted me when I was talking about him. He goes, they lead the NBA in assists or they lead the NBA in creating turnovers, but have the fewest turnovers. They just are really, really efficient. They don't turn it over and they force turnovers.

Is there, like, I don't think Golden State could beat O.K.C. I think Golden State would beat Houston. I don't, Houston shootings better today than three months ago. I still don't trust them in a big playoff spot. Oklahoma City to me is, they're like Cleveland the last couple of years. they're going to win playoff series. They're just too good. They've got too many good players, too good of a coach.

Go deep dive on Oklahoma City. Because I look at them and I think they have two or three things that really matter. They're well-coached, a dominant score. So they know laid in games in a playoff game, here's where the ball goes. That is so important. The great teams all have that. Denver had it with Yokic. And generally, like the Spurs, you'll have a second guy in Tony Parker if Duncan gets double.

it's great to have two. And if Holmgren's healthy, I trust them at a big spot hitting a shot. He's a great player. So they have an identifiable star and a co-star. They're well-coached. They play real defense. They're young, but they're not inexperienced. Like these guys are played in big colleges, big moments. I think they're a Western Conference finals team. I don't, I mean, I would take the Lakers over them. And I don't feel like I'm being a homer. I would just take LeBron and Luca and the possessions and a half and a game. What do you think their journey looks like in the postseason? So their defense I'm 100% sold on will perform really well.

The only team that I'm worried about them defensively against is the Lakers because LeBron and Luca attacking their smaller perimeter players. Oklahoma City's defense is nearly perfectly constructed. They're incredibly fast on the perimeter. And Mark Dagenal has built their scheme towards four. forward aggression and passing lanes to try to force turnovers. It's optimized towards the type of personnel they have. They also have rim protection in Chet Holmgren, which is a very important part of success

in the playoffs. And then they have a couple of different types of defenders that are especially valuable. So for instance, Lou Dort is one of the very best guys in the league that you can throw against a big star forward. And like, like there's just so many of them in the Western Conference, whether it's Luca and LeBron or it's literally Kauai Leonard or it's Kevin Durant or whoever it is your plane. There's all these star forwards.

He's a great option. Isaiah Hartinstein has kind of come to the surface as like a guy they use for the bigger power players and he's had a lot of success. By the way, the next had missed him defensively. No question. Yeah. His ability to defend in a bunch of different types of

coverages but specifically to handle the big strong bully ball types of players has been a huge asset to that Thunder defense. The only weakness I see in the Thunder defense is size as an aggregate thing, particularly on the perimeter. And it manifests in bad defensive rebounding, which has been a consistent thing they've struggled with over the years. And then that's where I can see some vulnerability where it's like, okay, you put Lou Doord on Luca, great, who's guarding LeBron? There's just nobody else on

the roster that can make LeBron feel really all that uncomfortable. So I think that's worth saying. The offensive end is where I see some cracks in the armor in the sense that they thrive in transition off the strength of their defense. But what happens if there's a team that takes really good care of the basketball and controls pace and keeps OKC trapped in the half court? And it's a big high leverage playoff series where you need J. Dub and Chet and Dort and these guys to be effective offensively. And again, I want to be clear.

I'm not trying to nitpick here because we are, I should be clear, we are nitpicking here because this is the one seed in the Western Conference. as I agree with you, I would be stunned if they didn't make it to the conference finals. But in the conference finals context, if they face a Denver or a Lakers, I think it's at least worth mentioning that those teams would be dramatically more experienced and dramatically bigger on the perimeter. One last thing I'll say about it, they do rely heavily on Shea Gilders-Alexander pull-up shooting

when things go south for them offensively. In those situations, I like a team of a bunch of six-eight, six-nine. guys that have long arms to contest. And that's something where I could see that being a value. So I think they deserve to be the favorite. But yeah, I'm with you to where like if I saw the Lakers and the Thunder about to play in a Western Conference Finals, it'd be really hard for me to not pick a lay. I think Adam Silver is a good commissioner.

I thought when I had him on, I thought he overreacted a little to Kevin Durant to the Warriors. And my take is, well, Otani came to the Dodgers. It's been great for Otani, great for the Dodgers, great for Fox, great for baseball. people like trades, people like stars and big brands, Harbott of Michigan. There was no downside. Yeah, Michigan was going to throttle people and you'd have more blowouts in the Big Ten. So what.

And so they overreacted and they, you know, they've now created this environment where, you know, aprons, it's hard. It's like you can't, you'll never duplicate unless you hit on every draft pick for four years. You'll never duplicate the Celtics roster. Like it's just you can't, you can't have eight good players. It doesn't work that way. And my take is people like trades. They don't mind dynasties.

And Kevin Durant was bound to not get along with Draymond Green. So it wasn't going to be an eight-year run. It was three years. They wore each other out. It was Shaq and Kobe. It was bound not to work forever. But I've talked about this before, is that there are certain unsolvable things. You can go to a therapist.

I can go to a therapist. There's a basic foundational personality I have based on my childhood that you're not going change. I can get better, but I am what I am. And saying, you know, change is hard when you, when you want help and want to change. It's impossible if you don't. So we are kind of at our core, sort of what we are. And I think there are certain things. You can't get away from the violence in football or UFC. You can't get away from the lack of urgency in baseball. And I don't think you can avoid tanking. Because, and the reason being is because in basketball, and this is not true with other sports.

In basketball, you could identify at 13 years old, Kobe, LeBron, Wemby. The Spurs went on a three-year mission to get Wembe. They saw that. That's not the way it works in football. Lamar Jackson, we were arguing after he was drafted. Can he play quarterback? You know, Mahomes couldn't win in college. Josh Allen, he's overrated and wild.

In basketball, men and women. freshman year of high school, it's defined. That player's different. That Yukon girl that dominates sixth grade basketball. It's like, oh, that's the best six grade basketball player we've ever seen. So, and my take is basketball, the ability to spot transformational talent so early, it's not a singular year tank. People see it. They don't have to resign players.

They can move off players that the NBA should just be like, listen. if there's a great player every year and a different team gets the great player, it's unavoidable and it's not terrible for the league. Like Cooper Flagg probably saves Charlotte. I mean, literally, if he goes there, it's like, okay, now Lamello Ball, Cooper Flick, that's a watch. Like, that's a watch on television. My take is the NBA spent so much time paralyzed by tanking and trades.

It's like football violence. Just do the best you can. You can't avoid it. What say you? Yeah, I like that you say it's an unavoidable piece of it. I'd say the same thing about the super teams and the willingness of players to try to partner up and in a one team becoming so powerful that they present a talent mismatch to everyone in the league. To your point about Boston, like this is post KD and Steph. It happened again.

And you know how it happened? The league at large undervalue Drew Hall. and Chris Sops Porzingis. That's not on Brad Stevens. That's not Brad Stevens' fault. That's the other 29 GM's fault. That they were like, sure, Brad wants to pay for Chrisops. Let him.

Okay, well, now he's a problem. Okay. So it's like now they have $5.30 million players. And I also just generally think that, like, I mean, to your point that there's five, six teams this year that have a really good chance to win, even with Boston being the way that they are. So like I don't think, I think it makes for. interesting storylines. As far as the tanking piece goes, it's even more unavoidable when you

factor in just basic stuff, which is like, if it's game 65 and we don't have a chance to make it to the playoffs, I shouldn't be playing my vets. I should be playing my young players. So different than if you're like, hey, you know what, I don't need to see Andy Dalton start in week 15. I'd rather see my third round picks get a chance to go out there and see what he can do. Let him get the reps. Let him learn out of plus. And so at a certain point, like, even if you disincentivized it through the draft. you would never be able to stop a team from looking at the situation and going, this season's over, we need to give our young guys the keys,

and that's going to lead to a lesser basketball product. I would say that generally speaking, the basketball guys will reward the teams and the franchises that play serious basketball, meaning like you'll see OKC did this a couple years ago, where it's like they're playing their younger players, they're load managing Shay, but they're also teaching those kids to play damn good basketball. Hey, Chicago right now is playing their arse off.

Yeah. That is a foundation. What Chicago is doing right now is a foundational part to any hope they have of being good in the future. If you practice playing bad basketball, you'll be a bad basketball team. And so the way I look at it is like, to your point, you'll never be able to stop tanking because it's impossible to stop teams from even prioritizing young. players minutes. But inevitably, organizations behaving like losers tend to remain losers. And organization, like, here go the Kings again. They had that one season, but it's like it turns out that even a really good year from Deerrin Fox and, uh, and from Malik Monk and from DeMontas

subonis is not enough to overcome organizational incompetence. Like at the end of the day, you can't stop bad from being bad. So stop trying to legislate it out, if that makes sense. I mean, I look at teams like Utah, and I know their record isn't good, but I love their GM. I think they have an excellent young coach, and they play hard. And they're just going to get better with all those draft picks. They're probably three years behind OKC. So if they land Cooper Flagg, and I think they have the best percentage now, they're tied. If Utah got Cooper Flag, that's a playoff team potentially in a year.

Like, that's a really good basketball team. Obviously, if Wemby got him in San Antonio. But it's like I look at it, and I think if Washington got Cooper Flag, I feel so bad for Cooper Flag. If Utah got Cooper Flag to your point, I'd be like, that kid hit a home run, he's going to do really, really well. No immediate

pressure. Danny Aange, great young coach, nice little supporting players. They just don't have a guy. I'd love him next to Walker Kessler, too. Walker Kessler is really a nice player. In fact, the Lakers were interested in him about trade deadline. If they would have got him, I would have been talking

very reckless on your show. He's a good player. The volume. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick.

And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it.

But, you know, tired and sick. Tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, what's good, y'all?

You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to.

Listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, wherever you get your podcast. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports

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