The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - Rodgers vs. NY Media, Jets O-Line Achilles, Giants Optimism w/ Middlekauff

Episode Date: August 23, 2023

First, Colin explains why he can’t wait to see Aaron Rodgers take his prickly media approach to New York and its antagonizing press. Then, 3 and Out podcast Host John Middlekauff joins Colin to discuss if Sean Payton’s first year with Broncos and Russell Wilson will be the NFL’s best storyline, if the Jets bad o-line could turn Aaron Rodgers first season with the Jets into a disaster, if Rodgers is equipped to deal with adversity in NYC, and if the Giants can finish with a better record than the Jets. Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates! #Herd #Volume #3andOutSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hi, everybody. Really, really good stuff with John Middlkoff at The Volume coming up. I'm going to have John and I are going to talk every Sunday night during the season. So John just has a wealth of information. The former scout, he's a buddy. He's a friend. He's really good at stuff. You know, I was thinking about if you go look at the quarterback position in the NFL, it almost feels corporate.

Even Tom Brady's personality was suppressed when he was in New England. It was suppressed. He got a little lively and added some personality in Tampa. But that's the league. It's very corporate. And what's interesting to me, if I said to you, big personality at quarterback, most of the guys I would mention, Baker Mayfield, Cam Newton, Jay Cutler, Johnny Mansell, don't work. the guys that are kind of cliched and coach speak.

It's been through the years sort of Brady, Trevor Lawrence, Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow, is that personality is wonderful. But what you're basically doing, the more power you have in life, the more you will suppress information. Because you'll have more information. And it'll be more vital information. I told somebody once, when I was in my 20s and 30s, I wanted to pretend I knew everything. And then I got to my 50s.

I have more access to stuff and I suppress more information. Well, when you're a quarterback in the NFL, there are discussions you're having with the coach, the coordinator, and the GM that are not shared with other players. And so what makes Aaron Rogers very unique, he's a star quarterback and he's sort of like a rogue independent personality. Like most guys that have that, Jeff George was outspoken, Cutler was outspoken. It mostly goes sideways. This is, you are the face of the franchise, you do that Wednesday press conference, you stand in front of the media.

You're not here to be glib and funny. You're here when they ask tough questions to be a cooler, to be a blanket, a wet blanket on a possible inflammatory story. I mean, they did a sketch in the 80s on Saturday Night Live about Joe Montana. And Phil Hartman was involved. And the whole joke of the sketch was Joe Montana was great, but the most boring man in the world. Because quarterbacks are paid to suppress information. You want to bring the temperature down in the room and concentrate on football. That's the opposite of Aaron.

Aaron is R-E-L-A-X. And now with the New York media, who was, you know, their critical. created to inflame. I think it's a fascinating relationship. And the schedule is tough enough and the O line is concerning enough that the Jets could get pushed around in the opener against Buffalo. And in fact, one of my favorite bets in week one is Buffalo minus like one and a half against the Jets. I think their defensive front will give the Jets trouble. And I think you're going to be able to identify very quickly what New York's problem is.

that's why it's really important. Mackay backed in Aaron Rogers, the right tackle, the quarterback playing against the Giants. It's interesting. If it's a turnstile, it's a problem because the Giants have a good pass rush. You know, this is why for years and years I've said, I don't mind personality. I don't want it a quarterback.

Like Mahomes is funny. He's able to compartmentalize a lot of moving targets. But if you really listen to Mahomes, he always says the right thing. Aaron often says the most interesting thing. It can be with Pat McAfee. It can be at a press conference. He can be direct.

He can be passive aggressive. So that's who he is at his core. Never married, no kids, independent thinking, $150, $250 million net worth or more, probably $300 million. So I think that's, it's not necessarily going to be volcanic. But if you look at the big personalities at quarterback, most implode.

Aaron at the end of Green Bay. Certainly didn't implode, but regressed. It just didn't work even in a small media market. Like, it didn't play into his favor. So this is who Aaron is, right? He's not had to sacrifice a lot in his life due to his talent and his lifestyle. So I can't wait. I absolutely cannot wait to watch it.

And I think very early, they will struggle to protect Aaron against Buffalo. So we're not going to have to wait very long. that Monday night opener, Bill's Jets. From that point forward, we're going to have ourselves a very prickly, bumpy story. The team I want to watch the most, and because the NBA is very much about the shield and corporate, it's not a drama league, right? Like in the NBA, a lot of times you don't care about the team, but the story is good. You know, like KD leaves Westbrook.

Westbrook wins the MVP. It's a good story. You know, can the Philadelphia 76ers finally win and get to a second playoff series? The story is better than the team, right? In the NFL, I just kind of like winners. I do think the Broncos with Peyton and Russell Wilson, I think it's the best story. Because if it doesn't work, they're kind of effed. I mean, because Russell, I mean, Josh Allen's cap hit next year, and you can manipulate it by the time it arrives,

is going to be like 18% of the cap for the bills. Like they have to win now. They can't screw around with Stefan Diggs. Like the reason the dolphins are interested in Jonathan Taylor is like two is only 4.5% of the cap. Dax 12, right? Josh Allen's going to be 18 and a half. They have to win this year.

So I think that's really interesting, the drama around Buffalo. But I also think it's, there's a weird thing in sports. If you asked how many players believe in God, it would be 90%. but Kirk Cousins, Derek Carr, and Russell Wilson wear it on their sleeve. And a lot of people view like Russell as inauthentic. And I'm like, you know, he's very religious, great conviction. I always thought that's just who he is. Now, people say Kirk Cousins is soft and corny.

And I'm like, he's a family man. He's religious. It's who he is. I've had two different raiders say, you know, Derek Carr wore some guys out. And I'm like, that's who he is. You know, he's a man of faith. And I asked Kevin Clark this yesterday. Do you view Ross as inauthentic or just religious?

I view him as inauthentic, but I've talked to enough people that is he's kind of robotic. So this version that everyone makes fun of is actually who he is. Because, you know, I would say the thing that I value the most in any human being is just be yourself, right? It's why I think, you know, people in the medium we're in having the most success or the most honest and just act like. You don't pretend to be something they're not, can just be very authentic to themselves, whether you agree with them or not. And I think Russell comes off too often, or at least has. I haven't been locked into all his press conferences.

Sean Payton got there, but it's just kind of a phony. And, you know, I heard a story once that he had a golf tournament and invited everyone to the golf tournament, right? Everyone at the golf tournament was an invitation from him. So he knows a lot of former players, coaches, whoever. and he had security when he showed up. So there's an element, like one of the things that Patrick Mahomes, you know, Farr have had this forever. I think Peyton and Tom were the biggest stars that,

that kind of were able to play both sides of the fence perfectly on this, is they always felt one of the guys, right? Tom always felt like, even though ironically he was a health nut, could drink beers, slam cheeseburgers with his offensive line. And same with Peyton. You know, you go back throughout the history of the quarterback position, Joe Montana was friends with all his teammates. Now, I also think that players, if you are true to yourself, like Derek Carr's married, he's got four kids.

Kirk Cousins is very, very religious. So is Derek. If they think that you're being authentic about it, I don't think it bothers guys deep down, especially if you're playing well. I think once you get the poor play and you have the weirdness, because I remember when I was scouting, I ran into a dude from Denver and they had just signed Peyton Manning. Or maybe it was during the season. So Peyton had been there for a while. And he was like, Peyton's a lot, man. We had to dedicate a couple scouts for him.

He got his own office. So all the stuff last year with Russell Wilson, they had done before. But what happened? Peyton got there, superstar MVP. They start kicking. No one cares. Payton was not easy to work with. But when you're winning, when you're playing at a high level,

and everyone knew they needed Peyton more than probably he needed them. He could have gone a bunch of places. I think last year, Russell, everyone opened their arms immediately. And then he started playing poorly. And then the story start leaking about him making the Seattle. It just imploded. And obviously Nathaniel Hackett over his head. And I heard you talking about this.

And I agree. He's definitely slimmer. He moved better the other night against the 49ers. But the pressure, I think the pressure on him and the pressure on Rogers, every game is going to be just treated probably 5X most of these other games. Just part of it has to do with who they are, how famous they are, how much money they make, the trades, how much power they have over coaches. and owners.

It is just, you don't see it very often, these Hall of Fame quarterbacks. I mean, Rogers is older, but Russell, in his prime, I mean, that's what makes the Pete Carroll angle. So are they just going to be really good? Is Pete just going to win this trade seamlessly? I don't know that Jigba got hurt today, but obviously if they're healthy, Seattle's going to be good again. We don't know.

I mean, Denver easily could be seven and ten. Pete goes 10 and 70s in the playoffs. Like, I'm sorry, he wins the trade. Well, I think here's my take, is that if you look at, Aaron Rogers and the Jets and Russell Wilson with Denver, there's a lot of similarities. They're both in the AFC. They're both in good divisions. They're both veterans.

They both have declining athleticism, but both still good athletes. And they're both going to get a lot of Hall of Fame votes. Both have a new coach. Both have, I would say, intense coaches. Peyton and Sala are intense coaches. And there's pressure on both. This is where Russell's optimism could be very, beneficial. I think at his core, Aaron's more agnostic, Aaron's more cynical, a bit more snarky. I think

that's who he is at his core, a little bit more of a hipster. That's who he is. And that's okay. I can be a little bit too snarky. And so I think when fit hits the Shan, Aaron's who he is is a little cynical and a little snarky. I think when fit hits the Shan for Russell, he tends to be optimistic and we'll get through this. And I do think that placebo effect, the power of the mind is valuable. And I do think they're going to have both of these quarterbacks this year, John, are going to have turbulence. And what I know, you know, Russell will be highly optimistic if they're five and five. We're going to get through this.

There's a brighter day. That's the messaging. If the jets are five and five, there's a chance. Aaron Bales on his right tackle who can't protect him. call on that could happen like week one the difference too is in Denver the head coach is going nowhere right I mean he's he's on scholarship for a while

he's he's the boss Aaron let's just say it's always easy in football probably more than any other sport things are so optimistic in general in the offseason and then in training camp and then all of a sudden it's middle of September and you're oh and two and things are getting tight and listen I was a big believer in the Jets

and then I'm not trying to do all my scouting on hard knocks, but their offensive line is a disaster. Now, can they make up for it with an elite defense? Like they're the number one defense, and Rogers just understands how to kind of manipulate it all. But that's probably still best case nine or 10, not 13 or 14. You cannot, if your offensive line is bottom 10 in the league, I don't care if you got Montana, Rogers, Manning in their problem.

That's a problem, right? And they got to figure that out. And I'm sure they are going to be claiming guys, off the waiver. They're willing to make trades. But that is to me the current biggest problem for all, a team that has the upside. If they had a good offensive line, I think everyone would pick them to be like an AFC contender, a real one. Right? But if Rogers, who I was reading Peter King earlier, he's the oldest quarterback in the NFL by a pretty wide margin, right? He's about to turn 40. All the other guys, even the older guys, cousins and Daniel, they're 35. What's Russell? 33, 34. That's a pretty big gap.

when we had a long stretch, you know, with the Eli, the Carson Palmer's, the Payton Man, obviously Tom's a little bit of an outlier, but got Rathusberger, guy, Drew Brees, 39, there were a ton of them. Now he clearly is the oldest. And let's face it. And I don't blame him. And you saw this definitely last year with Tom. And I think you kind of saw it for two years with Tom. You don't want to get hit anymore. That's right. You know, check your bank count. You got, you know, nine figures. You're already a Hall of Famer. You want to win, but there is a level of, I'm not going to get, I'm not going to play like Archie Manning here and just get driven into the ground every play. Right.

And you already kind of, you know, if you watch Hard Knocks episode two, Rogers is, and I don't blame them. I mean, the outfits of line. This is the pros. The expectations are high. We've invested a lot. We've drafted guys high. But if they're not good enough, the thing in the NFL, this is not the NBA where you

kind of suck. You will just bench a guy. You will remove a guy. You'll move other guys through. But that is, that's probably the hardest position group to just running backs I can rotate. Wide receivers I can rotate. DBs. Offensive line, if you got a constant rotation, you probably got a, you know, tire fire in your hands.

Well, and the other thing, and I'm not a psychologist, but there is a reality is that if you're married, you have kids, your life's a series of sacrifices. I know. I live in that tunnel. You know, Aaron's in a Kevin Durant, never married, no kids. He kind of gets his way a lot, right? So, you know, when, when again, when stuff unravels for me, I got kids, I got a wife, I make sacrifices. daily. It's just part of my existence. But, you know, Aaron's in that Durant tunnel where it's rich. He's the sun in his galaxy. Kind of gets his way. Wants to take a nap. Wants to go on a hunting trip, fishing trip. I had this thing years ago. I told the scout, I like my quarterbacks married.

And he joked about it. He said there's value in this. It's because when you're married, you get very responsible very quickly. You have to learn to compartmentalize your life, school with the kids, recital, practice, film. He goes, single guys don't have to compartmentalize stuff. It all mushes together. What do I feel like doing? Whatever I want to do. And I said, I think quarterback being married, you know, most of the great ones,

even ones that drove me nuts, Big Ben sometimes, he was married. He had kids. He had sort of a hierarchy of things, you know, a pattern of life. And I guess my point is, if shit goes sideways for, Aaron. It didn't a lot in Green Bay. Most of it was Aaron inflicted and Aaron created. I mean, no chaos front office, good offensive lines, never whiffed on drafts. Media was kind of in a sidecar. You know, they were your buddy. I mean, the turbulence for Aaron in Green Bay was kind of Aaron created. He's never had it land in his lap, not of his own creation. Yeah, I mean, I think

there's definitely something to the way the scouting community, but just human beings, right? A lot of guys, even if you are career driven, I know for me, up until about my mid-30s, I was always like, you know, no serious relationships. These last, I'd say three or four years, I've been in two serious relationships and I've gotten better at every aspect of my life. I've had to give up things that I used to be able to do, but you become more balanced. You become more relying on other people. They become more relying on you. You drop bad habits. And like you said, Tom Brady, when did he play the best football of his life, when he got married Giselle for the next whatever a decade, right? Peyton was married the whole time. So I think part of this just gets back to the Jets

are just not the most consistent organization. And they have, and this gets back to the difference between Sean Payton and Russell. If it doesn't go well, Robert Saul is going to get fired, Joe Douglas is in major trouble. It's just the way the sport works, right? If Aaron were to want them gone, they would go. This is where the other problem is, like, he's got way more juice than anyone in the organization now. And he's shown before he can be a little selfish. And he's doing all the right things. I am pro what we've seen out of Rogers.

Clearly, he's going above and beyond, eating lunch with all these different guys every single day, poaching the defensive backs up. I think he understands it. But like you said earlier, it's easy to do when everything's going well offseason, start one and three. And everyone talking shit about you everywhere you look

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If you had a team that you're sort of selfishly rooting for, I think it would be Chicago for me. I work at Fox. We have the NFC. We have a lack of star quarterbacks. I think we need Justin Fields to be fascinating. You know, for years and years, Fox and the NFC had this huge advantage. We had these great teams and Aaron Rogers and Russell Wilson. And even though Kaepernick wasn't great, he was newsworthy. We just had really good quarterbacks. Now, like Jared Goff on any Sunday is the best NFC quarterback.

And I like golf, but he's probably 10th, 12th best in the league. And I do think there's a team for me. I would like, I think I want to see Chicago be big. because I think it's such a great American sports city. It's an NFC team. I work for Fox. Is there a team for you you look at and you just think, you know what? They make my life better.

I'm into them. Football's more fun. Is there a team for you? Yeah, I mean, I'm an NFC guy growing up, you know, in the 49ers. I think the Giants, you know, Brian, listen, I root for ball chubby guys. So Brian Dayball is an easy rude for me. But I actually think there are a lot of parallels with Daniel Jones and Alex Smith. it is very powerful when a coach not just gives you confidence, totally believes in you,

but then knows what he's doing. And you saw with Alex, who was the number one overall pick. And once he left Urban Meyer, he went through Mike Nolan and Mike Singletary. And he looked like a royal bust disaster, but he's mentally tough. And he somehow held on to get once Harbaugh got there, changed his life. And then he gets to Andy Reid, a much better schematic coach than Harbaugh makes him into a really, really good player. I'm not trying to over. react to the preseason game. But I thought Daniel Jones just looked noticefully more confident. And I think he's more physically gifted than Alex. He's more. He's bigger. Yeah. And that organization, I'll give them credit because I probably wouldn't have touched this guy. He had been injured.

He got paid. He didn't seem like the same guy. Darren Waller looks like he's back to 2019. You can't, how do you cover a guy six foot five, six foot six that can run like a deer and who has elite ball skills? When he's healthy, he is a dominant player. The other thing, thing is you have Sequin Barkley who, you know, look like it was going to go down the Jonathan Taylor, Josh Jacobs role. And he's like, I'll just sign for the franchise tender. He's all in. They draft the kid from Tennessee who can run like 90 miles an hour high. If Dayball is the next, you know, McVeigh, Shanahan, which last year, what he did with that roster and a not confident Daniel Jones, what can he do now that he has this quarterback?

The division's hard. And they got Molly waft by the, by Philly a couple times. And Dallas is clearly better. Can they just shrink that gap, even if they go one and three against those two teams? But instead of this nine and eight, it's maybe 10 and seven, but it just looks better. And I know they won a playoff game last year. It was against that Viking team. I just wonder if they're a little more formidable. And like you said, the NFC, if you get the Bears a little relevancy, the Giants are back, the NFC East rolling with the 49ers. You know, the NFC is, we all talk shit about it, but it might be a little stronger than you think. You know, and I'm with you on the Giants. So first of all, every great team in this league feels like they have a pass rush.

So they have a good defensive front. Kavon Thebado will be second year in the pros. He should pop. Elite left tackle. Weapon and Waller and Barclay. An experienced playoff quarterback. Progressive, smart, offensive coach. And a winnable division.

I mean, it's certainly not the AFC West. It's not the AFC East. I look at the Giants. And I think the one thing I'll say about, Daniel Jones. And Alex Smith had this. He doesn't lose you games. He had five picks last year. You know, Daniel's one of those guys that, in fact, Golden Tate told me a couple weeks ago, he said his issue, he doesn't let it rip enough. Well, the upside to that is Alex and Daniel Jones didn't throw a lot of picks. Like they know what they are. They know what they're not. They're both big, Jones bigger, both straight line speed, both really coachable, both super bright. Golden said he just overthinks the room.

He said he'll never get in trouble in New York. He's like Eli. He goes home, film guy, Duke guy, Bright. I'm with you. I think the Giants are better than people think. In fact, wouldn't it be, I mean, if we were guessing a headline, would you be shocked if this was the headline? Giants end up with better record than the Jets. That feels like a headline.

Well, and tell me this. If I tell you the final four in the NFC is the 49ers, the Giants, the Eagles, and the Cowboys, who's not signing up for that? The markets, the history. The other thing I give Brian Daibol a lot of credit on is, like, to be a good, like you can only do so much as the head coach. You need good assistance and you need good coordinators. He hired Mike Kafka, who when I was with the Eagles, we drafted,

apprentice under Andy Reed and Nagy and Doug Peterson forever in Kansas City. So you bring him over to kind of tutor him as well and make him your offensive coordinator. And then he hires Wink Martindale, who right there with Vic Fangio, an older guy, elite scheme guy different than Vic. He's much more of an aggressive defensive coordinator. But he's the real deal. He's a top five defensive coordinator. Their coaching staff is really,

really good. And I remember when I was a kid in like the late 90s and some of those good John Fossil Giants team, they were just well coached. And they got away from that for a long time. And say what you want about the Cowboys, they just had better coaching staff. Obviously the Eagles did. And that's why they were getting worked.

And for the first time, and sometimes you got to get a little lucky anytime you hire a first time head coach, McVe, Kyle, whatever. You need luck on your side. But then if you hire the right guy, your franchise will be okay. It's why so many of these teams just suck in perpetuity. They just constantly hire these guys that should not be head coaches. It's not that complicated of a sport if you can just get the right head coach.

Former Scout John Middlekoff at the volume, three and out podcast. As usual, you always deliver interesting stuff, man. You always deliver. Good to seeing you. You too, Colin. Take it easy. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. Help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth.

Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.