The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin Cowherd Podcast - Untold Stories on Aaron Rodgers: Jets, Packers, Saleh, Favre, Family divorce

Episode Date: July 18, 2024

Colin Cowherd is joined by Ian O'Connor who has an upcoming book on Aaron Rodgers called "Out of the Darkness: The Mystery of Aaron Rodgers". The two discuss Aaron Rodgers past including why he doesn't talk to his family (5:42), his current relationship with Jets Head Coach Robert Saleh (8:45), only winning 1 Super Bowl with Packers and more amazing stories about Aaron Rodgers (21:06). Colin and Ian talk about what is next for Bill Belichick and which NFL team he could coach next season (29:31). Jalen Brunson took a massive discount for the Knicks after they added his Villanova teammate Mikal Bridges but does that make him the best New York athlete since Derek Jeter? (40:00) (Timestamps may vary based on advertisements.) For more information on Morgan & Morgan, please go to FORTHEPEOPLE.COM/COLIN Follow Colin and The Volume on Twitter for the latest content and updates!  #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. The volume. Okay, my friend and somebody I admire greatly, Ian O'Connor has a new book out on Aaron Rogers. And before we get to that, I want you to grab your smartphone, and I want you to download the Game Time app. It will take you 90 seconds. valuable. Game time is an authorized ticket marketplace for Major League Baseball. So you want to go to a Dodger

game, a Braves game, an Astros game, a Cubs game. The great thing about the Game Time app is that it makes it really easy. You can preview the seats before you buy them. That's a bonus. You're going to know where you're sitting. It takes the guesswork out of buying a Major League Baseball ticket with Game Time. The prices go down on the Game Time app. The prices go down for the tickets. the closer you get to the first pitch. Right? So if you, you know, it's one of those things you can drive to the game. And when you get close, because it's probably not a sellout, you can buy it right before you go inside the stadium.

That's pretty cool. Is it not? Yeah. Download the GameTime app. Create an account. Use my name, Colin. C-O-L-I-N, 20 bucks off your first purchase. So that's the redeem code, C-O-L-I-N.

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You know, as you've written this book, I don't mean to laugh, but Aaron's like a story, a weak guy. I keep thinking, do you have to keep doing updates for the book? I did. Actually, Colin, and thank you very much for the kind words. I handed in the book in January. And at that point, after asking to get for months and getting no response or being told he's thinking about it, assuming at that point he's not going to talk to me. And generally, my biographies, they've been unauthorized with limited or no cooperation from the main subject. So then in February, I got a message from the Jets. Well, he's actually now willing to talk to you. And it wasn't going to be a 10-hour sit-down where he told me his life story, but it was more a fact-checking hour or two. So I got two

hours with him. And great. So he answered some questions. He made the book better. And then after that, you had the RFK Jr. story drop. After that, you had the Sandy Hook conspiracy story drop. And then some podcasts he did after my access to him where more conspiracies were talked about. And so, listen, Aaron Rogers, he was a very difficult subject to get your arms around. I thought Belichick was tough, but compared to Rogers, I think Belichick was a walk in the park because he was a mystery that I felt like there was a sameness to it at the same time, and he was right in front of me. And I always felt that Rogers was a moving target. And so it was a challenge, and hopefully I conquered it. I guess the readers will let me know if I did. Yeah, I think, you know, complex people

are interesting. And I've said, Aaron's really good content for me. There are parts of Aaron that, I've said on the show before, my theory on Aaron, one of them is he just pushes back on authority. His family was very religious.

He pushed back on it. He pushed back on the Packers. He's pushed back on the media. He's pushed back on the government, vaccines. Whether that's a good quality or not, It can be unsettling to people covering him. But my belief is he's a nonconformist.

Many of the people in our lives, musicians and artists, we have celebrated our nonconformists. Is there a bit of artistry to his personality? That's probably the wrong word. But in my life, we have often celebrated there's a construct of football that we want organizational, dependable, reliable personalities, and is it arguable or debatable? He's more of an artist in a structured sport. That's a great question. And I'm used to Eli Manning, that model, that Eli Manning, Derek Jeter model in New York, and Aaron is the complete opposite of that. And so, but there is an art to creating a new cycle rolling out of bed. And that's what he can do. He can do

that better than anyone else, maybe in all sports. He can create a new cycle like that. So, and we've seen that over the years. And I think he loves being interesting. I think he loves being talked about. He loves being analyzed. I don't think he loves the way the news media has treated him in recent years. I think his viewpoints politically, generally are in contrast with what he believes is the liberal media, largely liberal media, and he's right for the most part. And you look at him, though, what's interesting is his life, his public life, Colin, changed with COVID. Because before COVID and the I've been immunized press conference in August of 21, he was not considered a villain. He was a guy who was very socially aware.

He backed Colin Kaepernick and the right to kneel in protest. he actually rebuked the fan who screamed out or shouted out an anti-Muslim slur in the middle of the national anthem. I think it was right after the Paris terrorist attacks and got a letter of congratulations or thanks or appreciation from President Obama. I mean it at times had that. And so he was sort of known as an athlete who was socially aware and engaged in the issues and really on the right side of the issues. And all of a sudden, COVID and his stance against vaccines changed everything for him in terms of his public image. Yeah, and by the way, he wasn't the only person to do that.

I don't view him as a conservative. I view him as more of a contrarian. A little bit of a Joe Rogan. Rogan's never had Trump on his podcast. He says he doesn't want him. And I think Aaron has said, you know, about like Trump, who's the ultimate like alpha Republican, which is like he didn't drain the swamp. It's just a different swamp.

So I think sometimes we view Aaron through a political prism, and I just see him as a nonconformist. And I think it probably that stuff at some point you can trace it back to his childhood. And let's pivot to that. You wrote the book. What do we know about his childhood? He was raised in a very conservative Christian evangelical home. And I think I talked to a family member. And you know, of course, for the better part of 10 years, he has not.

had any contact with his immediate family, his parents, his two brothers, right. So I think he ultimately, and one family member that told me that this person felt that when he went to Berkeley, when he went to Cal, and all of a sudden he leaves this cocoon, this small town in Northern California, overwhelmingly white, Chico, California, and is at Cal, Berkeley, this global institution, a melting pot of ideas and races and nationalities and just got exposed to a lot of different things and beliefs. And that that really inspired a rebellion against those Christian beliefs that he was raised with. And that that rebellion inspired other rebellions against other things. And I had a good friend of his when he was younger say to me,

we believed in magic. Aaron and I did, and together we talked about that. And when you believe in magic, you believe in the possibility of almost everything. And this person felt that that opened the door to conspiracy theories too. And listen, he studied the JFK assassination as a sophomore in high school. He was fascinated by it. Came to believe that was a conspiracy that involved the government agency. and that inspired other conspiracy theories as well.

So I think right now, he actually told me that religion is really a small part of the estrangement. But I do think that if you go back to his childhood, certainly he now does not consider himself religious. He considers himself spiritual. But I think you see the seeds of rebellion planted in his, own rebellion against those beliefs that he now does not hold. Yeah, I'm going to throw this out, and you can latch on to this.

And if there's any story in the book that corroborates or refutes this, go ahead. But I've said one of the statistics with Aaron that doesn't make a lot of sense on the surface is his lack of come from behind wins in the NFL. 21 playoff games, he has won. that would be low for a bad quarterback. He's an all-time great. And I've often used, you know, maybe it's trite, a little glib, he's more of a bailer than a baller,

is that when he plays poorly early, he quits. That he's not a foxhole guy. He's just brilliantly gifted. Jeter was more of a leader. Arod was more talented. Brady's more of a leader. Aaron's just more talent. And that I look at him that there's a lot.

a lack of fundamental lack of trust in a process. And when he struggles early in games, his body language shifts. When he trails latent games, there's a lack of trust for the play calling. And that's part of his personality. It's the only thing I can figure out and decipher why a gifted quarterback in 21 playoff games has only one come from behind win. Does any of this line up with some of his unique personality quirks or his fundamental base personality? Well, when he was younger, he was a fearless postseason player. And I think he, what he won, four of his first five postseason games. And the throw he made to beat Pittsburgh in the Super Bowl, the third down throw over the

middle to Jennings is one of the great throws in Super Bowl history. On third down, if that pass is incomplete, I think the Steelers win that Super Bowl. And so he makes that play and other plays in that game. And in that postseason run, if you go back, Colin, as I did, of course, and looked at particularly the game against Atlanta and the playoffs that year that he won it, you cannot play the position at a higher level than that. Right. He had some Alan Iverson-type ankle-breaking moves to escape guys in the pocket that were just

unbelievable and the throws he made. And just the way he played in that game, it was art. It was just hard to believe somebody could play at that level. And after watching that game and seeing him win the Super Bowl, it is really hard. still after studying his career in his life to come to grips with the fact that the Packers could not figure out a way to win a second ring with this guy. It's just unbelievable. One thing I'll point out, so this doesn't really relate to his upbringing or character traits, but he, listen, if they recover an onside kick, he's in the second Super Bowl. They don't recover

an onside kick and didn't do six other things in the final minutes of that game. And by the way, And by the way, that comeback drive to tie and send it into overtime against Seattle is totally forgotten. It was an amazing drive by Aaron Rogers to get that game into overtime after the team and really the coaching staff around him fell apart. So that doesn't count because they lost. But just in that building, the loudest building in the NFL, after the rest of the team really folded around him to drive that team down the field to force all. overtime and lose it basically on a coin toss. So that's a tough one because they get to the Super Bowl that year. They had beaten New England in the regular season.

So they would have a lot of confidence against Brady in the Super Bowl that year. But he did not have Belichick, okay? Mike McCarthy was not a bad coach, but he's not even close to Belichick. Tom Brady also had the best offensive coordinator of his generation. and Brady had this great system that Belichick created. And Aaron Rogers had a slightly better than average head coach and didn't have that system or offensive coordinator. A lot of times didn't have a great defense. And so I think that's that, hey, it's there.

And it's part of his legacy. The lack of comeback victory certainly is right there on his record. But he very easily in a different situation. would have the multiple rings that he doesn't have right now that everybody holds against him. And he has a part in that too. There are postseason victories that he left on the field that he could have made a play to overcome somebody else and he didn't do that. And certainly that is part of his record as well.

Yeah, I think he's been fairly portrayed as a quarterback as Marino-level gifted were wanting more post-season success, a little prickly, personally and different, but an all-time great. And I think that's incredibly fair. I always preferred him over Favre. I thought he could play in structure and out of it, whereas I thought Brett was harder to coach and a little bit more of an old style gunslinger, where Aaron could do a little bit of that,

but also played in structure very, very well. I don't think he's been unfairly criticized. I do think, like a Joe Rogan, when you're a newsmaker, The media are filled full of human beings. They tend to take sides. There does feel like a little bit of a negative pivot off Aaron. Do you think he will often say it doesn't affect him? Do you think it's had a corrosive effect on his personality and some of his actions?

I think so. I think that's a fair way to look at it, Colin. And listen, he's brought a lot of this on himself. And I think he's for a guy as smart as he is, a guy who, had 1310 on his SATs and is very thoughtful and engaging and can talk about so many different things. He's intellectually curious. And I've always thought he's one of the best, if not the best interviews in the league. He's always, he's a great talker. But he has said some things that he's had to take back. And I think like, for instance, the Jimmy Kimmel thing on McAfee, right?

So he did not go on the program that day planning to talk about Epstein and Jimmy Kimmel and the Epstein list. But A.J. Hawk, one of his good friends, blurted it out, a question. And obviously, that show is very free-flowing and McAfee does a good job with it. And it's the way he responded to A.J. Hawk off the cuff on the fly that got him in trouble. And I think he was very careless with his words. I actually believe he was not trying to say that he thought Kimmel was on the list. I think he's always been waiting for an opportunity to get back at Kimmel for making fun of him previously on his show regarding Aaron's belief, or he suggested that all of a sudden we're getting all this information out of the government about UFOs to divert attention away from the Epstein list.

And Kimmel mocked him for that. So he was trying to get back at him. but the way he said it, if you didn't know the context in the background, you would believe that Iron Rogers was suggesting that Jimmy Kimball was going to be on that list. Of course, he wasn't. So he put himself in that position. He got himself in trouble. And it was just once you try to explain it days later, as he tried to do, you've lost. You know that. Once you have to explain something like that, you've already lost. And so there are cases like that in his career that are dumbfounding because he is a very intelligent guy.

And so I'd say that he has brought a fair amount of that on himself. All right, forget what the calendar says. The football season actually, to me, start Saturday. The Baltimore Ravens open their camp for the rookies. Draft Kings has a best ball millionaire contest. It is the biggest fantasy contest ever. We're talking 15 million guaranteed dollars in the prize pool. 15 million from Draft Kings.

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Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The book is called Out of the Darkness, the Mystery of Aaron Rogers, comes out next month. What part of the book was the most interesting for you? There's his grandfather, there's parents, there's his childhood, there's Berkeley, there's Green Bay, there's sitting behind Fav, there's taking over for Fav. There's the prime years. There's the departure, the exit from Green Bay. Was there a part of the book that you, you really, there were surprises. There were left turns that you really found you were, as you were compiling the information in writing it, it was easy to write. You really enjoyed it.

At the, the chapter on Butte Community College is one year at Jukobos. Oh, it's great. It's great. I love that his coach, Craig Rigsby is the Charles Barkley of Jukobos. coaching. He was great chapter. Great character. Thank you. And so, but I would say the story that I really actually enjoyed researching and reporting on the most was about his grandfather because, you know, I had heard in passing and occasionally you'd see it briefly mentioned in a story that his grandfather served in World War II. And that was pretty much the extent of it. You might see an occasional reference to the fact that he was a P-O-W. And so in finding there's a guy in Minneapolis named Dan Matthews, who's a military records expert, and this guy was gold. And he found a lot of this for me. I found some of it as well. But documenting every mission that Edward Rogers flew

as a B-25 combat pilot. And including one on St. Patrick's Day in 1944, where his plane was hit multiple times. His engine on the left side, one of the four engines is on fire. He's flying over Nazi Germany. And the rest of his squadron, they weren't abandoning him, but it was protocols part of their mission. They had to peel off and go to the next stage of the mission. And he was all alone, on fire over Germany, in a B-24, that he was flying with 10 men aboard. And he had to make decisions. And he said, I felt like the loneliest man in the world flying over Nazi Germany. And so the story is, he somehow flew that plane back to the American base in Italy. They got down safely.

So effectively, he saved 11 lives, including his own. And I wanted to open the book with that chapter because there's so much negativity about his family that I wanted to actually write a positive story about his family. And his grandfather was an amazing combat pilot who flew 44 missions, 43 of them successful against Hitler's war machine, shot down on the 44th, was beaten and mistreated as a POW, told war crimes investigators of his mistreatment, and we have all of that in the book. And I think that actually was my favorite chapter. Yeah, it's, by the way, it is such an impressive feat of reporting.

I was a bit in awe of you reading that chapter. Sometimes, you know, Walter Isaacson will do this. You will do this. I'm not don't don't don't mention me in the same sense with him but thank you I've sometimes you guys that write these books you just go a mile deep and I'm I'm jealous of not only the time you have to do it but your ability to find it bring it to light and tell it artfully I just think it's so fascinating now I always thought there was such a unique

interesting contrast between this great looking hipster that went to Berkeley that ends up in Green Bay, Wisconsin, the smallest, talking about the loneliest places in the NFL. Do you think, Aaron, on a social level, what was Green Bay like for him? That's always been fascinating.

I know he goes to Malibu in the offseason, but for about 20 weeks, you live in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Did he think he liked it, appreciated it? He did. And it's funny because after he got drafted, after, of course, he's very disappointed that he plunged in the first round. He was posted, or a lot of people thought he should have gone number one to his childhood team,

San Francisco. That was his dream. The Niners pick Alex Smith instead, so he falls to 24 to Green Bay. And Thomas Weatherspoon, former NCAA champion sprinter, was a trainer for Aaron Rogers, a guy made him faster. And he said to him, this is great. this is like Chico with snow. Green Bay,

quarterbacks in Green Bay, they're going to build a statue for you and they're going to love you to death and there's no better place to be. So this plunge in the first round is really a blessing in disguise. And I think Aaron saw that. And now, I don't think the Green Bay community embraced him

like it embraced Brett Farb because they saw Farv as one of us, even though he was from the South. Yes. Right. Hunter, fishermen, hanging out with the boys in the bar, high-fiving fans over a beer, buy everyone around in the bar until, of course, he went into, until he got sober. And then that changed a little bit. But, yeah, Far, they saw he is one of us.

And I don't think they ever saw Rogers as one of us. But I think it was a really good fit for him coming from a small market, being overlooked, a juco guy. and then he ends up in Green Bay and it really was a great marriage, even though it wasn't the same relationship with the fans that Farr have had. And it just can't believe that they only won one championship with them when you look at the talent and some of it is his fault. But it's a shame. And really, at the end for John Elway, he got a second ring, he got his first ring and

a second ring at the end of his career. And Peyton Manning got that second ring right at the end of his career. the end of his career. And I think that it would be a good thing, really, to see Aaron Rogers get that second ring before he retires because he's too good to retire with one ring. Thankfully, he's got one and not zero because we'd be really destroying him for that. So, but he really should retire with multiple rings. And, hey, listen, the Jet fan base is the most fatalistic fan base I've ever encountered. And at some point, it's going to happen. entering the 2004 season, the Red Sox fan base thought it would never happen and it did.

Entering 2016, the Cubs fan base thought it would never happen and it did. New York Ranger fan base in 94 thought it would never happen and it did. So at some point, it will happen for the Jets. Hopefully it'll be this year. So when you gave me the early to middle chapters of the book, and it's the kind of stuff, folks, you just pick a weekend when it's raining in the fall and sit and read. it's just easy to devour. I did not get the final chapters.

Is there much in it about the Jets? It's a very brief part of his career. And if anything is there, the relationship with Sala, two good-looking young guys, appear to be very strong early. I wonder if it's as strong today. I don't think it is.

He didn't say that. so I want to make that clear. I did talk to him about the Jets, the experience. I do have a lot on the Jets in the book. Of course, that's at the end of the book. And I think that when they met that five-hour meeting, when the Jets sent that delegation out to Malibu to try to convince him to force the trade to New York,

he spent most of his time with Sala in that meeting. Everybody else was sort of hanging out on the backyard deck overlooking the Pacific Ocean, but he so i think he still has a good he always had a good relationship with sol i still think it's strong but they all know they're getting fired if they don't make the playoffs this year and i think aaron certainly has to question this guy's uh ability as head coach i think he's a great guy and i think he is a guy if i were an owner of an NFL team i would want to employ him uh but as a defensive coordinator he is not proven that he can be a good head coach he hasn't done it right so aaron knows that

So I think he still likes him. Still has maybe some belief in him, not as much as when he signed on. But yeah, this book has a lot of jet material in it, particularly how the play unfolded, where he got hurt. It shouldn't have happened. I explain why he talks in detail about that play. Wow. Listen, Garrett Wilson was open. And so obviously the cut block technique, I think the athletic had a story about how.

how Aaron is never like cup blocking, and I talked to him about that, and Dwayne Brown missed the cup block on Leonard Floyd. That creates an opportunity. And it really was an amazing night being in the building. I've never experienced a more charged regular season crowd, not just for the Jets in my almost 40 years of covering sports in New York, any team. I mean, that night, that crowd was unbelievable. And to see it taken away. four snaps in like that. It was hard. It was hard to take.

I was getting text messages from friends. I feel terrible. Your book is dead. And I didn't care about my book. I felt heart sick for the fans and for him to be there in that moment. Yeah. Yeah, I remember the next day after that, I went on the air. And people knew I was critical of Aaron.

And I had several reach out to me. And because I went on the air and I said, I feel so bad for Aaron Roger. I felt sick to my stomach. A, I'd never root against the player, root for a player getting hurt. But I think Aaron has been a content machine for what I do. And I do appreciate that. And, you know, he made some points on the vaccines that he may be right. You know, I tended to get in line with the government.

Maybe I was wrong and gullible. I don't know. But the book is coming out. Yeah, yeah, I could be wrong. Yeah, I was open-minded. And I told him, I have zero agenda with this book. I have no agenda whatsoever. I didn't have any real negative thoughts when you arrived in New York about you.

And it's funny because I had more trouble convincing people that, that they assumed I was a liberal media guy with an agenda. And I think over time, they realized I wasn't. And I was just trying to document a significant American life. But I had more trouble convincing people to talk than I did with my Belichick book. And that was a surprising part of it. How many people were afraid to talk about Aaron Rogers? And I think I won that battle over time, but it was a battle to get there.

And so, but yeah, it was, listen, I have a good feeling about this Jets team. And I know you've been a critic. I think you've been fair on Rogers. Your criticism to me is fair game. I would like to look at the all-time list. And I think you have him a little lower than I have him. I have him fifth. And the way I try to do it is very subjective, of course, but try to make it.

get more objective. And my formula is to take regular season MVP's plus Super Bowl MVP. So it's a team sport. But if you are the best player in the league and then how many times are you the best player in the biggest game in American sports, put the two together and come up with a number? And that's why I have Aaron Rogers in my top five. I haven't fifth. But I think obviously Mark Schlereth said he belongs at the kids table when it comes to at a gathering of all-time quarterbacks. I think he's the last seat at the main table, but I think he belongs at the main table. Yeah, I've always put him in the Marino class where I think he and Marino throw the prettiest ball.

I want more. I'm left hungry after their football careers, but it's indisputable that they're iconic. They're brilliant. I'm more critical, although I don't talk of him with Marino, because I think he's Marino had the first or second met coach for his entire career. And Aaron didn't. Also, Dan Marino had an owner. And that helps in free agency. Aaron Rogers didn't. So I think at some point, I will go down. I will probably have him closer to eight or nine. Marino in that same thing. Elway won the big games. Marino didn't win as many. But I think we both believe he's in all-time talent.

I've always had him ahead of Farv. But I do think, I do think he needs to, Farv, had a very, a really remarkable year, 33 touchdown, seven picks that first year in Minnesota, then he got injured. That was, I mean, in my opinion, that was one of the great years by an aging quarterback ever, maybe the greatest year by an aging quarterback. If Aaron sputters here this year after last year and kind of a weak year in Green Bay at the end, I don't think it's not, you know, we forgot Jordan was so good, we forget about Washington. I mean, it's like footage has disappeared. I do think Aaron needs to be, we have to see some magic. It's a nice way. It's icing on a very good cake. And I, you know, I kind of project there. An eight, nine win team. I don't see 12.13, but I don't blame Aaron. I think I think the coaching and the coordinating leaves a little to be desired. I want to move to Bill Belichick because you've also done the Belichick book. And Aaron and Belichick have one thing in common.

I think. Both at the end of their careers made a decision in the last seven or eight years, maybe five or six years. Belichick shared with Urban Meyer, there's just certain guys I want to coach. And I'm not going to coach guys I don't want to coach. Well, that's the opposite of sacrifice for the team that Bill wanted to be more comfortable. He relied on assistance he knew, even if they failed elsewhere. there was a certain language that Bill was comfortable with and he kept hiring his language back and was comfortable with only certain players. Winning isn't comfortable. It's uncomfortable.

Aaron has gotten, I think, a disservice at offensive coordinator with Nat Hackett, Alan Lazard, Randall Cobb. Instead of addressing that with Aaron, I want to address it with Bill. Do you think Belichick reporting recently by ESPN that Tom Pellasarro, I think, said recently in Rich Eisen's show, he is interested in getting back into coaching next year. Do you think the market, is it a dynamic market or is it

a two, three team market? Because age scares people. Brady had no market when he left New England. It was like the chargers and the bucks. Kirk Cousins didn't have much of a market for a very good career. Do you think Belichick, last year, no market, will have much. of a market. I actually think you're on to something there about it being a two or three team market, but I think the interest from those two or three teams could be intense. So I remember Brady said of the team he didn't name, you're keeping that guy instead of signing me. Then there was speculation, well, who was that guy and what was that team? But I felt that way about Belichick in this last cycle. You're hiring that guy or keeping that guy and not hiring Bill Belmont.

So, but I do think, just look at the NFC East. Could you imagine Jerry Jones hiring Belichick? Yeah. Now, Belichick working with Jones, I know they have a good relationship, but Parcells told me that it was a problem when he was there. He liked Jerry Jones. Didn't have a major problem with them overall, but after games, Jerry Jones holds a press conference right outside the locker room. I've been in five, six or seven of them. And the coaches down the hall in the interview room. and those messages could conflict. And Parcell said that was tough to deal with. Imagine Belichick down the hall saying nothing, and Jerry's saying everything outside the locker.

Now, maybe Bill can convince him not to do that anymore, but Jerry's been doing that for a long time. And he puts on a show. He'll talk about anything after a game. So that'll be interesting to watch that marriage if it happens, but the Giants. And if the Giants are, I don't know, six and 11 again,

this year, dable's in trouble, and the Mara family loves the Parcell's Belichick tree, and Bill will be sitting there. And at the end of the day, I've always felt this, that deep in a place he won't admits exists, Bill's a giant. I mean, that's the one building he walked into. You saw it out of all films where he got emotional. Right. So to end his career, if he could, the only reason he didn't get the job after Parcell's up down. Now, Bill had already left for Cleveland. He left because he knew that George Young,

the GM, hated him and was never going to hire him as head coach. So George Young now in the Hall of Fame, and rightfully so, one of the best football men I've ever met, but he hated Belichick. So to go back and have that be his final job and to try to win a championship in New York, yeah, that would be something. And I think that's a possibility. And I don't think the Giants are going to be very good this year. So the Eagles, of course, also. possibly in place. So if you're an NSCE's head coach, beware because I think, I don't think Bill wants to go west. I think he wants to stay near home. And I think the Northeast is, that's who he is. And so I suspect there will be a lot of interest from two or three teams and he'll get a job.

Yeah, the other one I would throw out is Buffalo, although Sean McDermott's done a good job. there is a sense as the ASC, AFC just keeps getting better, that Buffalo is kind of leaving, leaving some things on the floor. I don't think, here's why I'll throw that one out. I think Bill holds grudges.

And to be able to crush Robert Kraft twice a year and go back to Foxborough, I think it's something, Ian. It's a little, but it feels like something. It'll give you a better one than that. The Jets, if they miss the playoffs, everybody gets fired, right? But what if Aaron Rogers makes 14 starts, gets hurt in the middle of the season, Tyrod Taylor takes the other three starts, plays a fairly high level of football, better than his final year in Green Bay, not as good as the MVP years.

And Woody Johnson, who loves star quarterbacks and loves Aaron, decides, I'm firing everybody, but I want Aaron to come back and I'll throw the kitchen sink at Belichick and say, you walked out on us on this before I became owner after 24 hours as head coach. And you dominated us for the better part of two decades. Why not finish your career here with a quarterback who's about as close to an aging Tom Brady as you can find and a guy you can work with? I mean, I think that's a long shot, but I wouldn't completely rule that out. So it's 2024. And let's talk about something really, really important. If you're ever injured, check out Morgan and Morgan to America's largest injury law firm. firm, and they are there for you. Over 100 offices nationwide. Think about that. More than a thousand

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Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment.

And the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds.

I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game.

His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too.

Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court licking his fingers while he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you attack these books, you make really good choices. And there's a lot of people who do this.

The Belichick book, the Jerichita book, the Aaron Rogers book. While you're a columnist, while you're doing other work, a great dad, husband, you're a busy guy, right? When you finished the Aaron book, what's the feeling of two to three years, a mile deep? What's the feeling? Are you just, how do you feel? I sort of feel that these books take a few years off the end of your life. I hope that, but it does feel that way. But then when you have like that first copy in your hands, yeah, that is a pretty glorious feeling, I have to admit.

and it is the hardest thing I've ever attempted to do in this business. And one of the, maybe the second hardest was filling in for you. Seriously, I mean this. I'm not just saying this because I'm on with you, but I've told my wife this and she's a fan of yours and other people. So I don't know, maybe 10 times, 11 times I did your show when you were at ESPN when you were on vacation. And to sit there on national radio and national TV and basically, do a three-hour show by yourself where you're debating yourself and trying to create conversation

with yourself as you did so expertly, that might be the second hardest thing at fair time because I don't have your personality or your skill for it. And so that was a fight. It was just to try to reach a respectable level. And I felt like I owed that to you because they were putting me in your chair. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. That might be the second hardest thing I've ever attempted in this business. And that's a credit to you because you're the best at it. Well, I always appreciate that. I want to talk about, I'm not a big believer.

I think Choices is another word for fate. I'm pretty agnostic. Though most of my friends are very religious. I veer more toward the spirituality, I think. I don't believe in too many coincidences. Right now, New York, as the Yankee sort of spiral. New York has had a bad mostly decade in sports.

And I was thinking about this the other day. I thought Jalen Brunson taking less, $150 million less for the Knicks, was one of the savviest moves. And I know he'll get pushback because the term get the bag now is just synonymous with like NBA stars. Is Brunson the most loved athlete in the last 15 years in New York since Ewing or since Jeter? I think Eli's in there.

I think Eli winning the two Super Bowls, but he's close. And Brunson, if he just gets one, it's going to explode. But what's amazing is, and he'll make up that money maybe in the next contract. and I think he's eligible in 2028 when he can get over $300 million. Yes. But he's smart. Look how smart this guy is. He looks around and says, well, nobody in New York has won a championship in forever. And the Knicks have him once.

It's 1973. So somebody's going to be the guy who does it. And the guy who does it, if it's me, that's going to be worth a lot more than $113 million in my lifetime. He's going to be lionized forever. And he was smart enough to figure it out. And so if you look at New York sports right now, and we've talked about this, I think, on other shows, where New York's sort of lost its advantage over other markets. Because you can be a global superstar in Oklahoma City, wherever. The world is so small now. So New York's lost that edge. But the one edge New York has is, if you look at the Mets have won since 86, the Jets haven't won since January 69, the Nicks have one since 1973.

The Mets 7-1 since 86. The Yankees, to them since 2009, that's a drought. So if you come to New York and end the drought, you are lionized forever. And the payoff there is worth far more than $113 million, particularly when Brunton will get that back in the next contract. He was smart enough to figure out, now's the time I have to help the Knicks form a championship roster because I'm going to lead that roster and if we win it all, that is going to be something that you can't buy and doing that in New York after more than 50 years for the Knicks? What is that going to mean him? Mark Messier won five cups in Edmonton. He ended a 54-year drought in New York,

and that's the only cup anyone ever talks about, is him winning number six is the one he won and the drought for the Rangers. And he'll tell you that. They talk more about that than the other five combined. And he can't buy a meal in New York, of course. for the rest of his life. So yeah, Brunson is smart enough. He's figured it out. I'm making killer money, multi-generational money anyway. So let me try to do what I can to be the guy who ends the drought. So then my legacy goes to a stratosphere I can't even imagine. So I think he's made the right play here. For the audience listening that doesn't know the hierarchy of the Knicks, they may know James Dolan, who I think was side-tracked with the sphere for two years,

which allowed the front office to control basketball. As Dolan stepped away, he has a musical background, and it was actually an advantage. Now the sphere is done. The sphere's done. He's back to talking about how much he loves Julius Randall, which is problematic because I don't think he fits with what they, once Hartnstein left,

they lost size, a true center, Randall's small. I don't think he fits this small lineup, which often goes four guards. It'll be now three guards. McHale Bridges. So I don't think Randall fits. I think he's productive. I don't think he's a good fit. And here comes James Dolan done with his Vegas project to talk basketball and how much he loves Julius Randall. But over the last two years, the Knicks have arguably gone from the most dysfunctional organization ownership group to a highly functional, maybe not Miami or Golden State,

but a highly functional operation. Who do we give credit to in the suite upstairs? Leon Rose. It's very simple. And listen, he hasn't talked to the media in, I don't know, more than two years. It's in New York City. I don't know how Adam Silver or New Yorker lets him get away with that. I wrote a column that was very critical of him a couple of years ago. The Knicks went crazy over this column. And because he hasn't talked to the beat writers and the media at large in New York City, it has to be more than two years now. Not one word. So now, Nix fans don't care because the guy knows what he's doing, and I'll admit that. I'm not afraid to say he's done a great job. Early on he struggled. He made some moves that Tibbs didn't like. He got a couple guys in that,

like Cam Reddish that Tibbs didn't want, and Fournier and Kemba Walker guys that Tibbs didn't want. But man, it's one home run now after another, and I have to give the man credit for doing it, and so I will. And now his roster is one that could they go to the NBA finals next year after you're getting bridges. Yeah, I think they can because it's so hard to repeat now in the NBA. And look at Denver this year. They couldn't get through even to the finals. And after they won last year, we thought they might win three in the next four.

And I guess they still might. Boston is going to be tough to do it again. They're coming back with the same team. Are they better than the next their roster? Yes. But it's just so hard to get back that I think there's an opportunity there for the Knicks to get through and challenge somebody in the West. I think Bridges was the right move.

You're right about Randall, but you know what? He's a 24 and 10 guy, and I think he has value around the league. He does. What they could use is a center who could shoot from the outside, just to open up lanes for Brunson and Hart and DeFincenzo and Bridges. And just to space the defense out some, they didn't have last year with Hartnstein and Mitchell Robinson, a center who could do that.

So if they can move Randall into packages, now they had to send so many assets out to get bridges. But if for a, I don't know, does Minnesota decide that Carl Anthony Towns and Edwards and Goberts that doesn't quite fit. We need to add a different piece to win it all. Maybe I know that Kat, I know that Tibbs is willing to coach Kat again,

even though they had problems in Minnesota. I know that for a fact. And I also know, As a New Jersey kid, he does have, towns does have some interest in playing for the Knicks at some point. So, but it would be something like that. Maybe I could see happening. But I do think Randall has value around the league. Yeah.

And when he was in Los Angeles, you know, he's one of those players where the league, the culture and the style of the league changed. And Dwight Howard fell off a cliff. Randall didn't. But he's not, he's not aligned with current basketball. He's not going to shoot from the perimeter. he's kind of an old school bully ball physical player relentlessly hard player intense it doesn't look it's not aesthetically pretty it's not the current game but he's productive and I there is you know sometimes he has struggled in the playoffs but there is value in in dropping 24 and 8 a night in the regular season which is such a treadmill which is I mean it's a long hike on a dark windy road

and I think he provides for a lot of teams stability and production. But I got to tell you, as somebody who started watching the NBA in the early 70s, I find the Knicks have the, and this is hard for a big market team. I find them incredibly likable. The Villanova thing is, God, they're likable. I can't think of the last, I mean, I didn't necessarily love the Giants. The Yankees were fun, but again, outspending everybody.

This Knicks team feels like one of the more huggible in New York history. No question, Colin. And you look at Brunson is the biggest reason why, because he's the guy again, when he arrived, I wasn't sure and many people weren't sure, if he was good enough to be the second best player in a championship team. I think he's proven he could be the best player on a championship team, right with the right pieces around him.

But now taking less money, sort of a la Tom Brady in trying to help the roster and trying to in the championship and just saying all the right things. I mean, he would fit in with the Red Holtzman Knicks in 1970 and 73. And he fits in today perfectly. And he was a coach's son, a point guard son. And you could just see he's got so much savvy on the floor. His footwork is unbelievable.

I think he's got the best footwork for a guard I've ever seen, particularly in the paint. And he's not athletic. You look at his body. He doesn't look like an NBA player. He doesn't look like an NBA player. superstar and yet he is. And it's like every night, I remember his first year in New York. Tim

Bontemps, the ESPN used to make fun of me because I was working at the New York Post as a columnist. And every time I went to a Knicks game, I wrote a column about Jalen Brunson. Are you ever going to write about somebody else? And I said, no, Tim, because I've been around a lot longer than you and I see what's happening here in year one.

You could see it. It was a perfect marriage between market and athlete, and it was only going to get better. And that's exactly what's happened. Yeah. Ian O'Connor, upcoming book Out of the Darkness, the Mystery of Aaron Rogers, comes out next month. How long officially did it take to write that book beginning to end? The actual writing process, probably five months. Of course, there's a lot of reporting that goes into it. And I like for these books, particularly unauthorized books, where the subject is giving you

very little, if anything at all, you're interviewing hundreds of people. So, listen, it wasn't as long as Belichick. Aaron Rogers hasn't been on the planet as long as Belichick. Belichick was the, I think, I want to say that was a full three years. This was more like a year and a half. And I would say the average for me is probably two years. I did want this book to come out when Aaron was still playing. And so a lot of people thought I was dead in the water when he got hurt last year. And well, the

books coming out this year, I don't want to say the injury, it was an awful thing to witness, but in some ways I think it might have helped the book. Most people assumed it killed it, because last year is now this year, and they have to get in the playoffs. He has to have a big year, or this whole thing is getting blown up. So I actually think that might add some intrigue to the story that I've told here as the season unfold. Also, they got a little bit of a break from the schedule maker. A lot of night games, a lot of stand-alone games. They open with San Francisco. So as you know, with book sales, the more he's in the news, the more controversy, the more people are fascinated. They're going to be on TV all of September and early October. And if they win,

which I suppose they'll do outside of the Niners opener, that'll help. I mean, the best thing for your book is a six game Aaron Rogers winning streak. Yeah, right. And the worst thing, Colin, is of course, and God forbid, he gets hurt on opening night again. And I'm like, when I'm saw that schedule, I sent to myself to the NFL, are you trying to get him hurt on opening night again against San Francisco on the road? Did it have to be? With a new offensive line. Exactly. So, and listen, it's interesting because they didn't draft them, number one in 2005, and they should have. And that was his childhood team. He loved Joe Montana and Steve Young. And he wanted to be the quarterback of the San Francisco 49ers. He can't beat them in the playoffs, right?

He's lost to Kaepernick and Garoppolo in the playoffs, and he struggled against them in the postseason. He's had some success against San Francisco in the regular season. But that is a tough opening night for him. Brutal. A year after he got hurt on opening night after four snaps. So I didn't love that first game. But if you look at their schedule, could you see an avenue for them to go 11 and 6, 10 and 7? I would say that, yes, that's possible.

feeling about it. Usually when I write books about people, they have very successful seasons when the book is out. So for the sake of Jets fans who are very fatalistic, as I mentioned, and have been waiting, right? I always say that the Jets have not appeared in a Super Bowl since Neil Armstrong stepped on the move. So it's time. It's time for magic to happen. I think it would be a great story. I'm selfish in terms of wanting that for my book. But that aside, I do want to see that I've never covered a Jets Super Bowl. I'd love to be able to do that and I'd love to see Jets fans get that payoff.

Ian O'Connor, my friend, it's always great to see. You know how much I respect you and enjoy this stuff and you don't have much of a summer left, but what you do before you start digging into camps with the Giants and the Jets, I wish you well. Really, I met what I said before and you know what I feel about you and your work, so thank you very much, Colin.

Thanks so much. listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, take a moment, rate and review. Another podcast from some SNL, late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert smiglin friends on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was crying. You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come until he's like, you know I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This season on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler, we have some fantastic guests like Amelia

Clark. When, like, young people come up to me and they want to be an actor or whatever. And my first thing is always, can you think of anything else that you can do? Rather be disappointed in. Do that. David O'Yello-O. I love this podcast, whether it's therapy or relationships or religion or religion or sex or addiction or you just go straight for the guts.

Dennis Leary, Gaten Moderato from Stranger Things, Tana Monsu, Camilla Morone, Carrie Kenny Silver, and more. Listen to these episodes of Dear Chelsea on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.