The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin speaks with Craig Spencer, Directer of Global Health in Emergency Medicine for Columbia Medicine and Jason Hehir, Director of 'The Last Dance'

Episode Date: April 25, 2020

 In this exclusive podcast Colin talks with Craig Spencer, NYC ER Doctor and Directer of Global Health in Emergency Medicine for Columbia Medicine about the impact of the Coronavirus in New York as well as the rest of the country. They discuss some of the things about the virus that we've learned and others that have not yet been provenThen Colin talks with Jason Hehir, Director of 'The Last Dance' the 10 part Chicago Bulls documentary. They discuss how likable Michael Jordan comes off and his obsession with winning more than fame. How Dennis Rodman and Michael Jordan had a very unique and surprising relationship and what moments stood out to him in putting the entire documentary together Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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this is clivert taylor the fourth and on my podcast the clivert show i'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff like being an internet famous referee we're in the middle of a game this linebacker this linebacker walks up to me he goes a ref my mom wants you to wave at her what Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Brett. My mama want you to weigh better. What?

Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome to another edition of our Saturday podcast. Now extended, uh, sometimes now close to an hour of pure infotainment. Today we have Dr. Craig Spencer, an emergency tech, an emergency doctor in New York City, followed by Jason Hare, the director of the last dance, the Michael Jordan 10-part documentary. It's been a rough week. Social distancing still vital, but we do appreciate you partaking in our podcast.

We thought, you know what, for the next six, seven months or beyond, there's going to be binging. We're going to make this Saturday podcast longer, get some really interesting guests that, you know, people we wouldn't generally put on our show. So I think, you know, gives you a little different angle on what we do. And let's start our Saturday podcast with the esteemed Dr. Craig Spencer. There are so many pseudo-twit Twitter experts. There's only a handful of people that I have truly followed. And one of them is Dr. Craig Spencer. He's an ER doctor in New York City, which is a remarkable job in itself, but he's so much more.

He's the director of global health and emergency medicine at New York's Presbyterian and Columbia University Medical Center. Has worked in Africa in Southeast Asia as a field epidemiologist, an Ebola survivor. In 2019, was elected to the Board of Directors for Doctors Without Borders in the United States. And we welcome in Dr. Craig Spencer. again, there are so many experts. Craig, what do we know absolutely today that is true about this virus? It's a great question, and thanks again for having me on. What we know right now is that there is a lot more we don't know than what we do know.

I think that's the most important thing. This virus has really only been around for months. You know, we're finding out that maybe it was here in the U.S. in January. we are just learning a lot. We've already learned so much. We've learned what the virus looks like. We've learned how to test for it. We've done a remarkable amount in a remarkably short period of time, but there are just still so much we don't know. Why are patients with COVID getting these blood clots all over their body? And why only some people get them and other people don't get them? Why does some people come off a ventilator and some people don't? Why does it seem to attack older patients with underlying medical issues like diabetes and blood pressure, but also attack. 20-year-olds and 30-year-olds and 40-year-olds who are otherwise completely healthy and have no other medical problems. A lot of this stuff we're just starting to get answers to and won't be clear for another couple weeks, another couple months. But in the meantime, we still have people strolling and people streaming into emergency departments that are really, really sick, that are being put on mechanical ventilation.

And I wrote about this recently, like, so many doctors are seeing things that we haven't really seen before. And so many of us, even though people are calling us heroes, so many of us feel how. helpless because we don't know the best thing to be doing for patients. Well, that's interesting. I went, as I'm prone to do, went in a 90-minute walk yesterday. I live near a beach community in California. And one of the things we talked about is that beach communities in California have not been struck really with it.

The infection rates low. Now, it's very sunny and very breezy. The air is changing constantly. People tend to be in these California beach communities. They're walkers. They're joggers. They're recreational. They're healthy.

They're younger. And then I thought to myself, oh, I sound like an idiot. It's just socioeconomic. We don't live on top of each other. We don't have vertical living. We don't have a subway. What about athletes being in shape? I read something the other day that sunlight, breezing, breezy,

take turn your, you know, does that stuff matter at all? Or is this just a, you keep people close to each other in New York City? Because that's the city, the hot spot, and you got trouble. Yeah, exactly. It's still unclear. You pointed out the really important thing, the socioeconomic aspect of that. I would imagine in a beach community, and maybe that people have a better ability to socially distance, that might have more ability to get things delivered as opposed to either going out to the store themselves

or having to go to work every single day. What we're seeing here in New York City is actually there's not a lot of people on the trains like they normally are. We know that so people are getting on them because they have to go to work. But what we're seeing is that the majority of infections are likely in people who still have to go to work every single day. The people that don't have the same, you know, fiscal means to stay at home for a couple months, the people that are kind of on the front lines working as cleaners, working as sanitation people in hospitals, in addition to health care workers, people who are working in grocery stores, people that just have to continue going to work. And I think that's partly a New York City thing.

It's partly a density thing. Obviously, there's a lot more people, probably in my one building that I'm standing in right now, that there might be in many small communities, small neighborhoods throughout the U.S., definitely it's part of it. But I think that there's also these other things that are predisposing people to being infected. What I've been saying is that this virus cannot infect you if it cannot find you. If you're able to stay at home, great. Not everybody is able to, unfortunately. You know, it's interesting.

M.D. Scott Gottlieb, somebody else I have followed online. He retweeted something this morning or tweeted something, 318 outbreaks in China, a country you've worked in before. Only one transmission occurred outdoors. That begs the very interesting question. If I economically live with, you know, Italy's got some of this. It's older. I live multi-generational living. And I'm forced to be there.

I'm forced indoors. are you seeing in the emergency rooms in New York? It's poor people living together. You know, this China story is fascinating that the transmissions are occurring when, like, to your point, you're jammed together at work, you're jammed together inside. Should we perhaps open things up, beaches? I mean, where do you land on that?

Yeah, this is definitely something that we've been saying on. It's really heartbreaking. Twice in the past couple weeks. I've seen family members come in at the exact same time. The first time it was an older, elderly patient who was in cardiac arrest, and her daughter also had COVID and was sick with the disease, was standing by as they were doing CPR. Last week I had another patient who had COVID,

and her family member was there on a ventilator. It put the patient on a ventilator. Well, they were also sick and stuff like, We're definitely seeing this. If you talk to the EMS crews here in New York City, they're saying they're going to apartments to get someone who's really, really sick, having a hard time breathing, and there's five or six other people all in that apartment who, you know, either aren't going outside or all living really close together.

It's definitely a big issue. The question is, how do we fix that? Does that mean we spill everybody out onto the streets? I'm concerned about that because even what I'm seeing now in New York City, people are getting a little complacent. We're seeing numbers go down. That's really great. are going outside, they think, oh, if I have a mask on, I'm protected, I have nothing to worry about.

That is not the case. A mask does not protect you from getting infected by other people. It really helps prevent you, as someone that may be asymptomatic, may not be having a cough, but still infected with the disease from spreading that to others. So I think there's still a lot of other information that people need to understand before we can safely do that. And quite frankly, there's a lot of other things that need to be in place. Good old-fashioned bread and butter public health needs to be in place before we can say, open things back up, even on a smaller scale. You know, if you tell everyone, great, you've been locked in your apartment for a month,

for two months. Now it's time to go to the beach. We're going to have everybody out on Coney Island. We're going to have everybody out on the Rockways, and we're going to go back through this whole cycle again. The reason we're seeing numbers decline is because what we've been doing, the social distancing, the physical distancing has worked so well. We know that as soon as we let up, and we're going to have to at some point here in New York

City and in New Mexico and all across the country, people are going to need to get We're going to need to get people back into the economy, but we know there's going to be another uptaking cases, and we need to be prepared for that. That means more testing, testing, testing, testing is the way that we're going to be able to do this while. And quite frankly, right now we're not doing enough of it. Craig Spencer, New York City ER doctor and the director of global health and emergency medicine at New York's Presbyterian and Columbia University Medical Center.

You noted this earlier a couple days ago. California man died of the virus in early February. Now, we know you don't catch it and die an hour later. So I would say, between the time you get it, there's symptoms, you get sick, you're hospitalized, could be a two to a three-week process. He probably had it in early to mid-January. I live in California where there's, you know, there's 27, 30 flights a day from China. We have discussed among our friends. There was a rabid sickness in December and early January.

We all went to the doctor and they said, you don't have the flu. We couldn't figure it out. So what is with that story out of California, do you believe in this herd immunity possibly? Because California's infection rate appears to be much lower. How do you explain that? Is it possible it was here in December, late December, and there was herd immunity? That's a really good point. We know that this virus was definitely in the U.S. at some point, like down in California

and probably in other places in mid-January, meaning that it may have been here before it was even announced to many people. in China. We don't know the extent how widespread it was, but we know that the community transmission has really taken off, which is why we have hundreds of thousands of the cases here already. I get this question a lot. Hey, I was sick in November or December or January or February. Do you think I had it? Well, right now, all we can say is we don't know. I tell people to assume that they did not because the likelihood is still that they probably didn't. Community transmission was not really high then like it is now. Now I'm telling people, are you got a fever,

a cost shortness of breath, to me, there's a 99.9% chance that you had it. There are other things other than the flu that go on in November and December. There's other coronaviruses themselves. The only difference is that this one is a new one that we haven't seen before. There are other respiratory and physical viruses, a human medicumavirus, a bunch of other reasons why you could have been sick. My worry is that people, if people think, oh, I had this in December, I had it in January, they're going to start get a little brazen. They're going to start getting a little complacent. They're going to start thinking and they've already had it so they can't get it again. I'm telling people, assume you didn't have it if you were sick in November, December, January,

maybe even February. Assume you didn't have it until you're able to get tested to prove that you have immunity, to prove that you have antibodies. And that kind of testing is starting to come online. Now we'll be more of it in the next couple weeks. There are problems with that testing because there are things called false positives where you can actually be negative and the test can be wrong and tell you that you're positive. So people are going to think, oh, I have antibodies.

I'm going to go outside without a mask. I'm going to go hang out with my friends at barbecue and drink beer. And the whole time, we're just going to continue spreading this virus. This isn't going to stick with us for a really long time. This isn't something that's going to switch off in the next couple of weeks or really in the next couple of months. There's a lot of tricks and things that we need to do to get through to this. And testing is a big one, assuming even for people that think that they've had it, assuming that you have not had it and acting like you haven't had it unless you're absolutely certain.

Unless you have testing, that confirms that. Last night, a blown call changed again. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real.

From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial, calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience

in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it

and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid Because that's two different intentions, bro.

Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth.

And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, ref, my mama want you to wave at her.

What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This mental health awareness month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness,

emotional well-being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace, and self-mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming alone. We're not becoming more social and connected. We're becoming more individualized, but we actually need people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I am greatly worried about the psychological effects of this. You know, the flu, and this is not the flu,

but it kills up to 61,000 people annually over the last decade, according to the CDC. And interestingly, this does not affect infants and younger kids to the level flu does. Thank God. And that's always been, Craig, fascinating. This is a real topic with my friends. The flu kills kids. And if you have the, all of us,

with parents have had our kids 103 temperatures out for a week. This does not. This virus does not. What are the data point or the discussion points among doctors why this is the case? We really just don't know. As a parent myself, with a 17-month-old, I am so thankful that this doesn't because I am already worried enough about me getting it, about my wife getting and me being at work, about my friends. I can't imagine the added burden of worrying about my kid. Like, we know it's not impossible, but the likelihood that, you know, young kids are getting this and getting really sick or dying from it is like extremely, extremely, extremely low. Yeah. Which is wonderful.

Could you imagine if it was this horrible disease? And in addition, it was killing kids like, oh, my gosh, it's horrible. Yeah. So I'm glad that that's the case, right? But, again, we just don't know. A lot of these pediatric emergency departments are empty because there's just, there's just, there's no. not sick kids from this, thankfully. That's not completely true. There are certainly some kids that have underlying health issues that are immune suppression, medicine, etc., that are

getting sick with it. But again, the burden of disease in kids is so, so, so small, so, so thankfully. But we don't exactly know why. You know, we know that the, that 1918 flu pandemic that killed millions across the world just over 100 years ago, they impacted primarily younger, healthy people, you know, young men. in their teens and in their 20s, it had this huge impact right at the end of World War I. All we know is that certain viruses impact and infect some populations differently than others. Thankfully, this one isn't like the regular flu in that it gets adults and kids and kind of an equal opportunity virus. Thankfully, kids aren't impacted here.

I'm certainly both as a doctor as a parent. I'm extremely, extremely grateful for that. Yeah, multiple strains of the affection. infection. I've read that, multiple strains of it. Is that problematic? Does that weaken it? What does that mean to a layman? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by multiple strains. You mean like the virus itself having kind of multiple presentations or multiple? Yes. Yes, that's, it does multiple things. Is that problematic? Is that helpful in discovering a way to solve it? Yeah. So what we're finding about coronavirus is that some people present, some people are completely asymptomatic,

which is a problem. We know maybe 20, 30, 40, maybe 50% of people that have this are either asymptomatic or have small symptoms, like maybe a runny nose or, you know, maybe a small headache. It's not everyone with a fever, cost, shortness of breath. It needs to be put on a mechanical ventilator. That's a problem because that allows this virus to spread so efficiently. I've said this in the past. This virus is like the perfect virus for a pandemic because it infects people. It doesn't necessarily make everyone sick. It spreads really well before people get symptoms. And it only kills a relatively small percentage of people that it infects. A virus doesn't want to kill its host. It wants to keep the host alive long enough while being sick so that I can pass it along.

This virus is, for lack of a better word, perfect. For the presentations, it's tough because a lot of hospitals and a lot of providers were finding that the initial patients they saw were not like 80-year-olds with a fever cough and shortness of breast. They were 37-year-olds with abdominal pain who got a cat scan of their belly to look for, you know, a gallbladder or a liver problem. And they saw on the cat scan, the bottom part of the lungs, had this, these signs of COVID, 16-day-old neonates that were testing positive. The people that we were first seeing weren't necessarily the ones that are getting the disease or that we think of with the These older patients, he's frail patients.

So the presentation that's tough, it can present as fever, cough, and shortness of breath, or it can present as blood clots in the lungs or in the legs. Or it can present as problems with the heart. You see in this a lot in younger people as well with kind of inflammation of the heart leading to heart problems. We're hearing more about strokes and people in their 30s and 40s from these blood clots. It's just this incredibly weird presentation that spans every. everything from nothing at all to you're fine and then immediately you're dead.

Take me through your typical day today in an ER in New York City. Compare it to a month ago. Yeah, so we're at mid, in April now. We have the first case of coronavirus in New York City on March 1st. I had been concerned about this a lot earlier than that. I was wearing a mask when I was going to work, I think, all throughout February. early March, mid-March is when we were starting to worry and starting to see cases. We were ramping up. Everyone was preparing seeing what was happening in China, seeing what was happening in Italy, knowing that we needed more ventilators, more beds, more staff, more all of these things. So hospitals started working really hard on that.

State local governments started working really hard on that. For us in the emergency department, kind of what happened is we had this weird transition from normal, so heart attacks, appendicitis patients, patients that are, pregnant and having abdominal pain, like this whole realm of thing that we normally do on a daily basis. And then almost like within the span of a couple days, everything just kind of flipped. And I remember this, I think it was March 22nd or March 23rd. I wrote about it.

One of my first kind of Twitter threads was on March 24th, I think, talking about how everything became COVID, everything. Even the patients that we didn't think were COVID were COVID. I remember having one patient who was there for a problem with diabetes in keeping him in the hall and he was upset that he was in the hall as opposed to in a room. And I said, no, this is for your protection because everyone else is COVID. There's coughing all around. It seemed like there was this weird, bad, seamless transition from what we normally do to COVID within the span of a couple days. And then since that, every single patient, every single day has been COVID.

Even the patients that don't look like COVID will test them to admit them to the hospital, they're COVID. I mean, it's just so widespread that nearly everything that we're doing right now is still COVID. Right now, when I go to work, we're seeing a decrease in hospitalizations across New York, which is great. We're seeing an increase in beds and ICU and we have a Navy ship, we have field hospitals in Central Park. So it's taken a lot of the burden off emergency departments, but to feel the overwhelming majority of the patients that I'm seeing are COVID. A lot of them really, really sick. A lot of people that are still being put on ventilators or, you know, we're having discussions with their family about whether we actually want to put your 90-year-old

grandmother on a ventilator because the likelihood that she's going to come off is probably zero. Would we rather have time to talk as a family and to do FaceTime or to do a video conference so everyone can kind of be together again and just kind of talk? That's what we're doing a lot. Now we're still doing the same things as we were a week ago, two weeks ago, three weeks ago, but the volume seemed to, thankfully, have started to go down. Did you learn, have you taken anything?

Ebola, it felt much more dreadful that if you got it than COVID, where the, you know, the infection rate is great, but the death rate is generally lower. Is there anything from the virus as an epidemiologist when you worked in Africa that you took from Ebola that you've been able to share with people that has potentially helped you or you've seen as you battle COVID? Absolutely. I'm thinking about this now. I think about this every day.

And I'm trying to kind of write up my thoughts because what we're seeing right now with COVID is basically what we saw with Ebola in some weird way, the way that we responded, the impact that it's had on patients, the impact that it's had on providers. The one thing to answer that question directly is the one thing that I brought from working in Ebola was one really good idea of how to use personal protective equipment, how to use a mask, how to use goggles. you think that these are kind of common-sense things that every health care provider knows how to put on an N95 mask. Quite frankly, this is stuff that we don't do all that often. We don't have this really high rate of infectious or communicable diseases like many places I've worked in West Africa. So a lot of my colleagues and a lot of the providers that are on the front lines now had to learn a lot of these skills. How do you actually use a mask without touching it without infecting yourself? So I had a lot of those skills from working in Ebola that were great for me.

also helpful for trying to transmitting that information to my colleagues. But I think the bigger issue was that early on, I was seeing so many of my friends and my peers working in the ER that were having such a hard emotional toll from this work. I mean, it's not physically exhausting. It's mentally exhausting as well. This idea that every time you take care of a patient, maybe this is the time that you get infected and you don't know right now, you might not know for a week and you might not know for two weeks and you have family at home, like it is this idea that you can't help but going through your head

every time you're taking care of patients. And for me, I've done that. I did that for months, really, in West Africa. I've gotten used to that in some ways I've learned to live through that and kind of blunt that, but also how to healthily respond and think about that mental exhaustion and how I can help myself, but also how I can help my peers. And so the one thing I shared early on with my colleagues was find someone you can be vulnerable with. Healthcare workers, doctors, nurses, we are not taught to be vulnerable. We're taught

to show up if you're sick or whatever's happened. Like your job is to be there to take care of people. It's all about them. It's not about you. And we've had to kind of rethink about that. It is really important for us to take care of ourselves, both physically, making sure we have the personal protective equipment we need, but mentally being able to cry, being able to connect to people and be vulnerable in a way that most health care providers never have been. And that's something that I brought from West Africa that I was able to share with my team. And I think now we're all getting a little bit more used to it. But quite frankly, a lot of the stuff that we do, watching people die and feeling helpless like this,

is stuff that you just can't ever get used to. Dr. Craig Spencer joining us, New York City ER, doctor. I'm reading something here. Generally, heat, humidity, and sun stem or negate some part of viruses. We don't know that yet. But most viruses are weakened with humidity. The South, Texas are moving into the very, very humid months. Just your gut feeling, could it, even if it was 10 to 15 percent, Craig?

Yeah. Could it be a helpful new development in weather, humidity, heat, sunlight coming heavy in the next month? We all hope so, but there's not anything really to 100. percent prove that or really to kind of hang our hat on for that, we know that a lot of viruses, especially things like the flu, et cetera, they decrease in summer months, but they always ran back up in the fall months and in the winter months. Maybe it will have an impact, but again, we don't know that that's true. This virus is very happily spreading right now in places like Florida in Singapore, which is seeing a big increasing cases, you know, in tropical places with

warm weather. Maybe it'll help if it was a 1% or a 10% decrease in the transmission of the virus, absolutely that would help. But we don't know that that's necessarily going to be the case. What we do know is that regardless of what happens in the summer months, we're going to see this virus again in the fall. We're going to see this virus again in the winter, in the impact of this could actually be bigger then. We saw this with the 1918 flu pandemic, where you had an outbreak, kind of like you do now, it did go down and went away during the summer months, and then it came back even greater impacted and killed more people in the fall and in the winter. So I think it's just another reminder that even as we talk about getting over this first complex,

there's another potentially big hump in front of us, and a lot of the things that we're getting used to now, the social distancing, wearing masks, not shaking hands, all that other stuff that feels a little weird. Like, this is going to be with us for quite some time. Yeah. Well, you know what? I love spending time with my daughter in our house. I'm not a big hand shaker. I've always been a fist bump guy. And I really like, I don't mind. Yeah, my kids and I, we don't mind time by ourselves. We're readers and, you know, documentary watchers and baking the sun a little bit. So Craig, you've been very helpful and informative. You're doing such a remarkable service, not only in your ER, but for our listeners, your compassion is obvious. Elected to the board of directors for Doctors Without Borders in the U.S. He's worked in China, Southeast Asia, Africa, and on the ground in New York City. Good luck to you and your family. I just appreciate you taking time and informing all of us, and we're all getting smarter with you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me on.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the Internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete

themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer-beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions

everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action, with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicelife-Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kier Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience

in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the world, of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions,

bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keir Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to. wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue of 42.

Hey, Wreck, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility

of connection. This mental health awareness month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well-being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace, and self-mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected. We're becoming more individualized, but we actually meet people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more.

Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Jason Hare is the director of the wonderful documentary The Last Dance. He also directed Andre the Giant on HBO, the Fab, which is one of my all-time favorites and the 85 Bears documentaries. But the last dance, because we have a scarcity of sports, is even more profound, I think, emotionally for many of us than his previous documentaries. And I've seen all of them.

And Jason is joining us. There is, it's a very rare documentary, Jason, that for guys like me, I'm reliving it. And for people in their teens and 20s, they're gaining so. much information. And perhaps this is how documentaries all work. But I, but I find that the mythology of Jordan, as I watch it, it's just as great as I remember. And when you sorted through all this film and all this tape, were there surprises for you? Or was it just amplifying what you knew was the greatest basketball team and the greatest, most glamorous story in basketball all of our lives.

I think the surprise was in the difficulty that they overcame. I remember this. I mean, that was my sports fandom heyday because I was a senior in college that final season. So as a kid, I was eight when Michael came in the league. So right when I started to understand sports and playoffs and, you know, standings and checking the paper every morning before it was ubiquitous on Sports Center and 24-hour cable network.

waking up and checking the Boston Herald to see what Michael Jordan scored last night. I mean, that's how I learned sports. So I remember this from afar as a dominant career, and that this team was the dominant dynasty of the 90s. Going back and sifting through the footage and sifting through the storylines of each one of those titles, it dawned on me how difficult it was every single year there was a different obstacle. I mean, it's hard enough. It took seven years from Michael will win his first one.

I think a lot of people that gets overlooked because he's one of the most prolific winners in the history of sports. But it took him seven years, and those were seven very, very hard years with a lot of heartbreaking losses and a heartbreaking injury is second season. So that was difficult. Any coach will tell you that the most difficult thing to do in sports is not to win a title list to repeat. So they have to repeat, and that was difficult. Then the three-peat in the midst of all the gambling allegations and, you know, tabloid media journalism kind of paralleling Michael's rise and eventually driving him out of the game for a while. That was difficult. So I think that the most surprising factor of all this to me was to realize how hard it was to do what all these guys

did. I think Jason Hare joining us, the director of The Last Dance, just been wonderful through two episodes, and we still have the Rodman stuff and piston stuff, and there's going to be so many twists and turns. I really enjoyed Michael with a scotch laughing. about the cocaine traveling circus. I absolutely, and I, I didn't get to see Michael laugh. I saw Michael dominating,

intense, sometimes petty. I didn't get in his career these belly laughs. His mother reading his letter. I, I found him incredibly likable. Will he remain without giving it away

as likable going forward? Yes. Yes. Even more so. And that belly laugh was kind of the clarion call for me. That occurred 15 to 20 minutes into the first interview that we did of three, and the eight hours that I spent with him on camera. That was 15 or 20 minutes in.

And I've never heard him in all of the footage that I've watched and interviews I've listened to. I've never heard that laugh come out of him. Yeah. So it would have been very easy for him to sidest that question. He's certainly well-versed and adept at avoiding questions that he didn't feel like answering. But it was one thing for the belly laugh to be elicited That shows that he's acknowledging the truth of that The moniker of the traveling cocaine circus

But then for him to go a step further and to offer an anecdote About what it was like to experience that as a young kid coming from Chapel Hill That was such a signal to me that he was all in on the project And it was really a turning point in a project for me to say that this is going to be way more about It's not going to be about Michael Jordan the superstar so much as Michael Jordan the human being. So it's great to hear that you say that he was a likable guy because that's how he came off to me personally. So we're trying to reflect that in these shows. And he makes it easy. Yeah, he had very strong figures in his life, his dad, his mother, and Dean Smith. And I was

struck, I was struck, Jason, by how refined and mature he was as he entered the league and took over the team virtually by game three. And his relationship very early with, you know, David Stern, an understanding of how valuable he was. I don't think you get that if you go from high school to the G League, which appears to be kind of the direction the NBA is going. I was struck by his refinement, his polish, and his maturity when I went back and looked at that behind the scene stuff. Is that something you took note of? Absolutely. And, you know, it is definitely a different era now. It's not even that he would have gone to the NBA as a high schooler straight and skipped college

because he wasn't even on the map enough for that when he went to UNC, but he probably would have gone, he probably would have been let's say a late first rounder, maybe, or an early second rounder. Someone would take a flyer on him after that freshman year. But it's so rare now just to see guys go to college

is one thing, but to see them stay for more than a year or two is another, and it really, Dean Smith is the one who advised him to stay for the extra year and felt that his defense was not up to par to NBA standards. And then Michael, of course, later on, became defensive player of the year. And I think it's a nine-time all-defense first team in the NBA, which is astounding, given his offensive dominance.

But Dean Smith, he calls him his second father. I mean, this is a guy that, to this day, I mean, obviously, Dean's no longer with us, but to his bold heyday, if Dean came to the arena, and Michael heard about it, he could jump off the trainer's table and strip himself up and just make sure that he was presentable for Coach Smith, who we always called him, Coach Smith. he never called him Dean. There's one story that we didn't get to put in the first episode where Michael's a freshman, and he missed a shot, and he said,

damn. And Dean Smith said, you never curse in front of me. And he made him wear a weighted vest and run the stairs for the rest of the practice in the arena. And he said to this day, and Michael swears like a sailor, and thank God they're showing the unedited version on ESPN because you'd be, you'd have tonight this from the bleeps. But he never swore in front of Dean Smith after that. That's how much reverence this guy had for him.

So, yeah, he had figures in his life. He was very lucky to have these figures that shaped him, and he's very well aware of that as well. Jason, take me where your mind goes when you get Andre the Giant, or the Fab Five or the 85 Bears. Not that those weren't, I've watched all of them, but there's almost a responsibility as a documentarian. The Last Dance is different.

He is, they're our greatest team. He's our greatest superstar. Did it feel different when you watch the film? or do you watch all of it? Or did you have a sense, a chronology, a sense of how to tell it very early? Or was this something you really had to look at? You had to really sleep on this thing. Really, like, how can I give this player the ultimate platform?

Was this harder, I guess, or easier to do for you? Because it is such a broad story with so many tentacles. Much, much harder. Those other stories that you mentioned, as many characters as there are, and as complex as some of those stories sometimes are, they're largely chronological. The biggest challenge in this series was chronology, because in order to tell the story of the Bull's dynasty

through the lens of that 97-98 season, you have to flash back all over time. You know, Phil Jackson was born 70-something years ago, and we're going back to his upbringing in episode four. And then Steve Kerr, you know, we go back to him as a seven-year-old kid, falling in love with basketball at Pauly Pavilion at UCLA, and that's in, say, 1970, whenever that was, we're all over the place.

And then when we start winning these titles, when the Bulls start winning these titles, you go 91, 92, 93, and then Michael was playing baseball, so it's very difficult to stay on that track. You know, I used to tell my editors, and still do now, because we're still editing this show,

we're still hard at work on it, that the highway is the 97-98 season, and the exit ramps that we take, little places that we stop are the side stories that we tell the flashback. but we have to get back to that highway consistently in every episode. So I tell them always that you can stop to eat but you can't stay overnight. You can stop for dinner, but you can't go to the motel.

You have to get back on that highway and you have to keep going on this trip because the trip is the 97-98 season and we're telling all the stories through the lens of that trip. I asked a couple of different people about Michael Jordan, Sam Smith, for instance, and he's in your doc. And I said, Sam, in the end, is Michael a good guy? And he said, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael's a great guy. But if you're not about winning, he's got very little use for you.

And I'll ask you, I'll pose it differently. Is Michael the guy after doing this and watching all the film? Is he the guy you thought he was? Good or bad? Yes. He is who I thought he was. I hope that we've rounded him out in a more human way, and people will see other sides of him.

And even we tried to kind of slow drip that. In episode one, you see him getting choked up when he sees and hears his mom's voice. He talks to his mom every day. He's a mom's boy, through and through, because he had it out with his dad many times growing up. He didn't see eye to eye. So he was a mama's boy. And then his dad and him, of course, became best friends before his father was murdered. And he goes through that, so you'll see what it was like for him to go through it.

It's not easy being Michael Jordan. And I don't say that just to give him a pass, but there are a lot of expectations we have of athletes and cultural figures that they didn't necessarily sign up for because Michael does not care about the fame. I'm sure he enjoyed the fruits of his labor in the 80s and 90s, and he had the endorsement in everywhere he went. He was revered. But he's more about winning that he is about fame.

I think that he would have abhorred Twitter and Instagram and those things if he was playing if those were around his day or if he was playing now. He could care less about how many followers. as he has. He wants to win. That's what matters to him. And he knew, as we'll examine it in episode five, all of his endorsement deals in the rise of Air Jordans and all that, he knew that all of it was based on his performance on the court. So that was paramount to him always. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are

trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so rapidly. up in the chase, that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing, and we're still

chasing it, and we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust.

I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about. How healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff.

Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Wreck, my mama want you to weigh better. What?

Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. This Mental Health Awareness Month, tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self-discovery, and returning to yourself.

We explore higher consciousness, emotional well-being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace, and self-mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming. The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected. We're becoming more individualized. But we actually meet people. connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you to hear more. Listen to deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black

Effect Podcast Network on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I was also struck about not the depth of Phil Jackson because I think any reasonable person has seen his magic work. But that, Phil Jackson as Scotty Pippen didn't get rehabbed or the surgery in the summer, as we've seen in the documentary. Instead, I think it's fair to say it was a little selfish that he wanted to enjoy his summer and he was mad at Jerry Krause and the Bulls. I really thought it was, it showed sort of the grace that Phil Jackson truly is built for Michael and Kobe and Shaq. Maybe not James Dolan, but everybody else in that he did not hold it against. He did not hold it against Pipham. The fact that Phil could juggle Rodman, Michael, the League, Krause, Reinsdorf, I got to tell you, if Michael comes off looking the best, Phil Jackson to me was second. Will that continue going forward? Or are there some moments where his discernment is not as great?

I think that will only be enhanced. I mean, it's up for a debate and, you know, it's up for every viewer. the way that Phil came to power with the Bulls, he started as an assistant, and Doug Collins had that team on the rise. And Doug Collins was unceremoniously fired after they went to the Eastern Conference finals. So, you know, that there is a segment of the population out there that Phil somehow stabbed Doug in the back. I don't agree with that, knowing what I know about the story and having interviewed these people

and studied this for years now. I don't think that it was some Machiavellian calculated operation that still came in there and slowly took over the team. I think there were other circumstances, and you'll see some of those in the story. But Phil, I don't think gets enough credit. It's tough to say that a guy with 11 rings doesn't get enough credit, but the personalities that he had to juggle and, you know, the easy thing is to say, just roll the balls out there, and he had Shaq and Kobe and Scotty and Michael and all. all these players, just, you know, give him the triangle, let them go.

He has the best talent to win the game. When you have the best talent, as he may or may not have had on a lot of those teams, you also have the biggest egos. And Pat Riley called it the disease of more, or the disease of me, it's sometimes called, that when you win one, that's why it's so hard to win the second ones, because everyone wants more. They want more money. They want more playing time.

They want more credit. They want more adulation. And a coach has to manage all of that because everyone can't get more. And to do it twice is remarkable. To do it six times with the same organization is we'll never see it again. To do it 11 times as a coach with two organizations, it's just unheard of. And I was so impressed by Phil, and I think that he did not get the adulation he deserves, even though he does get adulation.

And I hope that people recognize that as a series goes on. I don't want you to, and you won't tip your hand on anything going forward. So I'll ask this. I'll lay it up kind of vague and you take of it what you can. Michael is a great basketball player but a savvy businessman. That's why I think he appreciates people who understand macro things, Phil Jackson, Steve Kerr he appreciated. I think people that get caught up in stuff that's not about winning would drive him nuts.

But I think Rodman always was about winning. So on the surface, Rodman and Michael Jordan would feel like complete mismatches, contrarian personalities. Going forward, I'll just ask it this way. They obviously worked well enough to win championships. Are you, will I be surprised by Jordan and Rodman's working relationship? Yes, I was. because those guys were professional enough Dennis had a different set of rules

everyone knew that Phil made that clear unapologetically this is not a college team where we're trying to we're not makers of men here they come in men already and he had a different set of rules that's how that team could perform the best

because Dennis is a different breed of human being and he needed you know he needed that escape and he needed to behave as own way. Now, that only works all of that as contingent upon performance on the court. And Dennis, time and time again, performed and delivered. There's no way they would have put up with him in his antics and all that. He definitely wanted the spotlight. He's the anti-Michael

when it came to that. He's going to do everything he can to get in the spotlight. And to show people, he's Dennis Robin. He's going to be himself and all that. They wouldn't have put up with that for three games if he behaved that way and they were going one and two or oh and three. or even two and one because of him. If there's one loss because of him, then you were on thin ice with Michael. So the extent to which he performed is extraordinary. But I get credit again to Phil for convincing the team that this is it.

You know, he did this. There's the 11 guys here, and there's one guy over here, and he's going to be able to do something that you guys cannot do. But everybody understood that. And his and Michael's relationship, one of the first times I met Michael, I brought Dennis up, and he said Dennis is the smartest guy I ever played with. Wow.

And you'll see that Dennis is a student of the game. Dennis really is kind of a nerd about basketball. He comes in, he works out by himself, he studies film by himself before every game. He, there's a moment in episode three where he's describing the practice that goes into the art of rebounding, where he has friends of his going to empty gyms late at night and just throw up shots because he knows we're going to miss them. And he studies the spin of the ball and where it hits the rim. And his muscle memory, he knows where to be to get that ball every time.

It's really fascinating to watch what an art he made rebounding into, which sounds like kind of a mundane topic. When it's being described by a guy with lemon-lime hair, it's a little bit more interesting. Well, the truly talented director, Jason Hare, of The Last Dance. Each documentary is probably there is, it's your baby. this is a 10-part documentary. Is there an episode that for you either resonates because of things you've gone through? It unveils things you didn't know.

Is there one episode that you would be more emotional about or feel more ownership over? I have a special place in my heart for seven. There's stuff in there that I still can't believe that Michael allowed us to show from behind the scenes, just his behavior during practice, and intensity during practice. I'm proud of the fact that our team and all of the partners forged the relationship with Michael and his team where they trusted what we were doing,

and they allowed us to show some of this stuff. And also there's a side of Michael. I was very interested in, you know, as we've discussed, humanizing him and humanizing all of these guys who are, you know, different levels of famous, but they're still kind of seen as above the fray when it comes to the rest of us, you know,

down here as normal people. But Michael especially, I was interested in whether or not he was ambivalent about, you know, because my experience is that he is a nice guy, like Sam Smith said. He's a great guy. He's a guy's guy. He wants to hang out and just kind of BS with people and do all that. So I was interested in whether or not he was conflicted about having the reputation as being a ferocious competitor when at all costs, accepts nothing but the best of himself

and those around him and monomaniacly upset. obsessed with winning. That doesn't connote the image of a nice guy. And I was interested in whether or not he's ambivalent about that being his image. And we discussed it at length, and there's an exchange in there that I'm proud of, and that I hope that

I hope is enlightened to people and makes him to think twice about what's really in that guy's heart. Any interview you did not get? There's not, and isn't that astounding? When we cast such a wide net,

there's a couple interviews we couldn't get because people were on the other side of the planet and timing didn't work out, but there was every single story we wanted to tell, the exact people I wanted to tell the story are telling it. And that hasn't happened to me yet, even though this project is exponentially bigger and more complicated than other projects, you know, with Andre, obviously we didn't have Andre, and we didn't have a lot of the main characters because a lot of the guys in that world have passed away with Fab Five, we didn't have Chris Weber. He refused to participate with the Bears' Doc.

we didn't have Walter Payton and Dave Doerson. They had passed away. So at this one, there's a few people, James Jordan and Dean Smith, and Jerry Krause, of course, would be great to have interviewed. But we got a lot of people. I mean, if you told me at the outset of this thing, that the people who would no longer be with us are David Stern and Kobe Bryant,

I'd still be standing there with my jaw dropped. So to think of the net that we cast and the amount of people that we were able to book and to sit down and have, you know, pour their arts out to us, we're really, really lucky. As a documentarian, what did you learn from this project, which is almost completed, that you didn't know? What was a revelation, not about the story, perhaps about the process? You're probably a better documentarian after every great project. You learn something.

When you look back at this, what will be the paragraph? What will be the headline of this for Jason Hare, for you? You know, I've been lucky enough to work with great teams on several, on all of my projects. I put a lot of attention into hiring and getting the right chemistry in that locker room because you're kind of a head coach of that edit room. On this one, it's impossible for me to be present at every turn because we had so much work to do. It normally takes a year to do an hour-long archival documentary. We did 10 of them in two years.

So there's rooms that I simply cannot be in and processes that I can't be a part of on a ground level. So learning to put really talented people in the places where they belong and let them do their thing. It's very difficult for me as someone who prides myself on having a vision, a specific vision for something and saying, this is the way we're going to do this. I went into this project thinking, you know what, if I have to take it all out, just edit the whole damn thing myself, and we're going to get this done the way I want to get it done. That's impossible. And this has taught me a tremendous amount about putting trust in others

and allowing them to flourish, putting them in the right situation, giving them the resources they need, and then, you know, the greatest compliment you can give an editor is that you give him your vision or her, your vision, and you give them a script and you leave the room, they come back and they have that exact vision on the screen the way you wanted it, that's a straight-A editor right there. You leave the room and come back,

they have something better than you even envision that to me a plus editor and we had a plus editors and producers on this project so um i'm tremendously proud of that and then the circumstances under which we've aired this thing uh all of us take a lot of pride and why i say all of us i mean is p and netflix nbaa and the jordan brand as well as my team we all agreed immediately let's do this as soon as possible so the fact that it's one thing with people that they enjoy it etc. But to get notes from people literally around the world, something like that, saying thank you for letting me enjoy this with my children,

take them back to the era that I was from, or thank you for giving my family a diversion and escape for just an hour or two. That's really gratifying to all of us. Yeah, ironically or coincidentally, either one, you had to finally give people trust. That's exactly Jordan's story, who went from at times a very ball-centric player and had to be talked into trusting Steve. Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Paxson, and others to take the shot.

Jason, really happy for you. I've watched everything you've done. You just gave us 30 minutes of fascinating insight to a process. I think it's been unbelievable, and you should be incredibly proud. And I just appreciate you coming on our podcast. Thanks so much for having me. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the Internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where SportsSlyce comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Another podcast from some SNL, late night comedy, guy not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it was good, y'all. You're listening to and learn the heart. with your favorite therapist and host

Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you're not to be played with.

And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to, listen to learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, the Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about

all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker whops up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out.

Quarterback on office, Blue 42. Hey, my mom, I want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clivert show on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.