The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Colin talks with author James Andrew Miller

Episode Date: July 18, 2020

Colin talks with Author James Andrew Miller about ESPN dealing with the political views of their hosts and the suspension of Adrian Wojnarowski. They also talk about the pandemic's impact on late night TV and how the hosts are handling it differently. Plus, James talks about his latest 'Origins' podcast diving into the film 'Almost Famous' and the staying power of Cameron Crowe's film 20 years later. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Look Back at it podcast. From 1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 is big to me. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors.

Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild. I mean, it was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing.

How many men carry a suit or armor? It signals to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen to learn the hard way on the IHard radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, everybody, and welcome to our Saturday podcast. We get to delve into different topics. We've covered everything from emergency room doctors in New York City during the outbreak in March, February and March of COVID-19. We talk media.

We just had the CEO of a barstool sports on and kind of a controversial, you know, growing sports network, sports and comedy network. We talk about all things on Saturday. A lot of time stuff we don't have time for or might not fit into our little sports box Monday through Friday. And a friend of mine is Jim Miller,

writer, producer, executive media consultant. And he's written three books. I've read each one beginning to end. which with my schedule is not easy. ESPN, those guys have all the fun. Live from New York, the complete uncensored history of Saturday Night Live. CAA, the untold history of Hollywood's Creative Arts Agency, Artist Agency. That's a great book, by the way. That's the last one I read.

I still keep it around the house, jump into it time to time. And he's got a podcast called Origin, that it explores the beginnings of some of the most celebrated successes of our time. TV, movie, sports, business, beyond. Now, the new episode, which I'll get into in about five minutes, it's about the movie Almost Famous. Now, that was directed by Cameron Crow, and it tells the story of a teenager, teenage Rolling Stone journalist

who toured with a fictitious rock band called Stillwater, starred Kate Hudson, Billy Crutup, Francis McDormand. By the way, on my staff, John Goulet, is already a couple of episodes into this. Love the movie. And Goulet said, it is a great listen. It's fascinating. And I welcome in Jim Miller to our Saturday podcast. Jim, how are you?

Thanks for having me. It's great to have you again. Had you more than once. So let's get through a couple of media things, which you have some expertise in and a lot of experience, having, you know, written the book on ESPN. A couple days ago, there was an article, New York Times article about ESPN's culture. My takeaway, it was a tad thin, didn't equal up to the headline, but that's the world we live in. And it was about diversity, lack thereof. When you read the article, how did it land for you?

I mean, look, I didn't think that, first of all, I was immediately struck by the fact that there was, it seemed like a lot of cooperation with the FPN in terms of them putting people forward. And yet, I was curious about why Sage Steel wasn't interviewed and why she wasn't part of that process. I guess she's got to be one of their most visible. black anchors. And it was just interesting to see, it made me wonder like how they picked the people that they did. But look, I think it's a very tenuous,

sketchy time for ESPN. They spent, as you know, when Jimmy Petaro came in and we played Skipper, one of the first, he had only two things on his major agenda list. One was making nice, nice with the NFL again. Yeah. And the second was getting politics to hell out of ESPN. Right. And they, you know, We came in and did a scrap job on the 6 o'clock sports center with Jamel Hill and Michael Smith, and they did a lot of other things, and they stopped giving those kinds of awards at the SBs, and there you go.

And now here we are, and they just made a deal with Jamel Hill and Colin Kavernick for a docket series. And I think that from Stephen A on down, everybody feels a lot more entitled to talk about their own political opinions and stuff. So it's a very, I mean, the toothpaste is out of the tube. They're never going to get it back. And it'll be interesting to see how Jimmy now manages a world that basically he hasn't had to deal with. Yeah, it is interesting. It's, yeah, as a sportscaster, I try to stay on sports as much as I possibly can. And then there's sometimes like the Drew Breeze story recently, Kaepernick, where I think you have a responsibility.

to the audience to address it. I still like to get back. But how far do you? Yeah. I didn't mean interrupt, but how far do you, I mean, how do you draw the line, con, between how far you're going to go into what you as an individual really think about a certain political position or a political issue that is in the zeitgeist? How do you figure out how to, how far to go?

Well, I felt with Drew Breeze, I thought it was a national story being covered by, Good Morning America. So I have a responsibility to cover it. I led my show for 10 minutes with it that day. With Colin Kaepernick, I covered it extensively because I think, again, once a story transcends sports and becomes a national new story, I have a obligation to my audience to have an opinion on it. I'm always looking for opportunities, Jim, to get back onto the interstate of sports. I don't talk. I don't love the current White House and have made that clear. But I don't think people too, me for sports, but I also think they do tune to me for perspective when star athletes, I would cover, say, Russell Wilson before Eric Reed, if it was a similar story because he's a bigger star. There's a gravitas to Russell Wilson or Aaron Rogers. So I try to weigh

everything. Who's the player? What's the issue? Is it national? But my instincts are always, Jim, go back to sports. That's always my instinct because I don't believe I'm an expert on social causes, race relations, or politics? Is that a reasonable take? I think it's a reasonable take. I think it's easier said than done. Right. And I think that, you know, the fact that you do walk that line. I mean, I'd be curious. I understand that, you know, I listen to you, and I know you're not a fan of the current White House, but let's face it, there are a lot of Republicans and conservatives who aren't as well. And I'd be curious to see if, you know, if we sent out a survey to your listeners and just say, where do you think Colin is on the political spectrum, I just wonder how many, what percentage would say, I have no idea and I don't care.

You know, because you have been able to, it's a delicate, it's a delicate balance. That's why I asked. And you have been able to kind of parachute in when you feel like it's important and particularly when there's somebody visible like Drew. But at the same time, there are, as I'm sure you go through with your team about or when you decide what you're going to talk about, there are many times when I think, oh, maybe he's going to talk about this. And then I realize you don't, you don't because you're not going to, you feel like that's the Rubicon.

That's like a little too close to home and you don't want to go there. You know, I'll give you a great example, Jim. I didn't talk much about LeBron and China. And here was my reasoning. We don't have the NBA. It would have been very easy for me to crush the NBA. This was not an NFL story or a baseball story where Fox Sports has a relationship. We don't have any NBA coverage.

We don't even have regional sports networks anymore. So we don't have 15 teams under our umbrella. The reason I talked about it briefly, but the reason it was not a topic. Number one, it was an international story. Number two, it was complicated. Number three, I know where LeBron's heart sat. He's a good guy. Number four, I was a little more critical of Steve Kerr and Greg Popovich as adults

who have taken a lot of shots and been willing to talk about politics and then clammed up and sort of, I thought, inauthentically pretended like it was just too, it was too convoluted, it was just too sophisticated, they didn't understand the parameters of the story. I, in that instance, I thought it was boring. I thought if it was a podcast, I might do it, but I couldn't do it on a TV and radio network. I didn't think it was captivating. I did think Kaepernick and Drew Brees were much more interesting. So to you, But my point is that this is, and that's why I said, easier said than done, because this is a constant calculation that you have to make as host. And you have to also, you have to marry that with potential concerns from your parent company and the people who make your, pay your check.

And you have to, you know, literally figure out, I mean, it's not so simple as, okay, I'm going to talk about this or I'm going to talk about this. You have to do, and I guess over the years you've kind of created a way of doing this like you're alluding to where you find your comfort level and you decide yes, no, yes, no, but it's not black and white. No, it's not. I mean, like the other day the woe situation when he, in an expletive toward a senator, Josh Howley from Missouri. I wouldn't have done that. I felt it was a tad unhinged, but I'll give you a prime example there where I think he got great, credibility within the league's top players to fire back at a conservative senator.

So I understood ESPN saying, listen, this is, we can't, you're a public figure, we're a public company. That's kind of a no-brainer. There'll be a suspension. But I also thought for Woage, it was a smart risk because he got great credibility among the people he needs to like him, the stars of the NBA. What was your takeaway on the Woge moment? I mean, look, I think that, first of all, I'm pretty sure that the second he did it, he regretted it.

And by the way, I mean, who doesn't have two phones and why do it from your corporate account? That's, you know, I love Wojj, but that was probably not the finest hour. And, I mean, he already enjoys a lot of great credibility with the league, but I absolutely agree with you that the players were definitely on top of it. I was looking at it more like what is ESPN going to do with it and what was going to happen to the ESPN floodgates. And sure enough, you know, particularly on social media and other places I was on, you know, talking people, they were saying, well, if he had done that until Pelosi, he would have been fired. but the fact that it was a conservative, ESPN only slapped them on the risk, which I think is totally whack, because I don't believe that they, when they were sitting around deciding, okay, are we going to suspend them? We're going to spend them for two weeks. We're going to spend them with two weeks without pay or whatever.

All these calculations they had to make in the aftermath of his email reply, I don't think for a moment they're saying, well, it's a conservative senator, so we're a liberal organization, so we'll go easy on them. I mean, I just don't understand where people come up with that. Well, it's also, it was a public story. So if you did that, you would be crushed. I mean, there would be repercussions. Yeah, I mean, I don't buy that stuff. Listen, I've said before, you know, I've told my agent this. I don't know a single person as conservative as Sean Hannity,

but I don't know many people as liberal as Rachel Maddow. I've always been independent in the middle, moderate social left. And so a lot of these things, I just, scratch my head on the reactions. I'll give you an example. Media coverage of COVID-19. I think we should wear masks. I think it's probably hard to get outdoors at the beach with all the wind and the salt in the air. I think it's easy to get at a church on a bus, indoors, at a restaurant, bad ventilation. Outside of that, I don't know anything, Jim. What is your takeaway on suddenly everybody's an epidemiologist on the media's coverage beginning to today of COVID-19?

I mean, look, it's a very simple equation as far as I'm concerned. I believe in experts. Politicians should just get the hell out of science. And there are people who literally spend their entire lives studying this crap and studying these issues and studying all these things. And at some point, you just have to have faith in them and listen. And by the way, they don't get it right all the time. they don't get, and they don't necessarily speak with one voice, so you have to do some triage there.

But at the same time, if you're asking me in a battle between somebody who has dedicated their life to working in this area and some politician, you know, the governor of Florida versus an epidemiologist, I think I'm going to put my money on the scientist. And I think that, you know, that's the smart thing to do. And that's not, by the way, the other thing is that that's not a political statement. That's not me saying, I think, you know, DeSantis is a bad governor or because he's conservative, I'm liberal. It just means, you know what, at some point, at some point, science has to matter. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action, with stories told by people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a here. Unpack went down and tried to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s.

To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so you all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack, so I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now, so. Then you're finishing that sentence. Yes. I don't think there's a more important year for black people.

Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history. Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, We get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it.

And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on Earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust.

I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Keir Gaines, is we have really. Real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th.

And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Rhett, my mama want you to weigh better.

What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Jim Miller, writer, producer, executive media consultant. The books, ESPN, those guys have all the fun. Live from New York, the complete uncensored history of Saturday Night Live, Great Read. The last one I've read.

the untold history of Hollywood's creative artist's agency. And even if you're not a Hollywood wonk, it's a fascinating tale of CAA. I happen to be represented by CAA. Who are you represented by? WME. All right, there you go. He also has a podcast called Origins, which I'll get to in one second. I want to throw this out, is that we are seeing the evolution of TV and late-night TV to virtual broadcasting.

Jimmy Kimmel this week, return to the studio, some guys from their house. I think Jimmy Fallon just returned to the studio, you know, the whole zoomification of the American business model. When you look at late night and the creation of YouTube, you know, you were in that history of Saturday Night Live, Lorne Michaels' comedy. Is it dying? It felt so important to me when it was Carson into Letterman. and then the Conan O'Brien, Leno, where I felt I could live without it. There was something about Letterman that felt so urgent. Now we have Stephen Colbert, who is excellent with politics, others who try are not.

What do you make of the late night situation we're in where increasingly the YouTube video for Jimmy Fallon can get significantly more traction than the actual TV linear TV product? Yeah, I mean, listen, it's sometimes unfair to compare errors, but I think to your point, look, when Johnny was on, I mean, there was nobody else. It was a joke. I mean, it was Carson, and that's who we spent our late nights with. And I think that, you know, particularly, and then Dave, too. One of the things that's happening, and this happened to Saturday Night Live as well. I mean, Saturday Night Live used to be on every Saturday night and a weekend update was a big, big deal, and we would talk about it. And, you know, you obviously had a watch it because you couldn't see it anyplace else after during the week. But the whole point is that we talked about it during the week. Now there's just an equivalent of, you know, weekend update on TikTok, on a 16-year-old. A 16-year-old is doing that. Everybody has their own, you know, it's a proliferation of comedy is all over the place. YouTube channels, 18-year-olds, 20-year-olds, it's crazy. So I think that these three white guys are, facing an incredibly competitive landscape, and they're trying to do the best they can.

And I think that they have a loyal base. It's clear that each one of them kind of speaks to a different type of viewer, and particularly when it comes to politics, as you point out, with Colbert. But, you know, it's never going to be the same as what you and I remember about Johnny going into Dave, and not to sound like an old guy, but, I mean, that was just, that was really, you know, that was epic. That was really important. And so now we just have to get used to this universe.

And more importantly, the powers that be have to get used to the Senate universe where you can't have these expectations that someone is going to be so dominant and someone is going to be able to set the table for what we're thinking. There's just too many different people out there. Your new Origins podcast centers on the movie Almost Famous in its 20th anniversary. It was directed by Cameron Coe. Crow, who also, by the way, directed one of my top ten favorite sports movies of all time, Jerry McGuire. So let's start with this. Why the decision to go back and feature this movie?

Well, look, I love the movie. I think it's one of the best rock and roll movies made. I think it's one of the best coming-of-age movies made. And P.S., it's also, in its sneaky little way, a great movie about journalism because it really tells a story of a reporter embedded with its subject. But another thing that I love about it is it's multi-generational. When my daughter turned 12, I said to her on that day, I said, okay, I think you're ready. I think I got the age right. Let's sit down and watch this. Sure enough, you know, three years later, she was asking me to get her tickets to Coachella because it just gets inside you and doesn't let you go. But I was struck, you mentioned Jerry McGuire. I mean, just think about it. I mean, Jerry McGuire was,

an unbelievable hit, even by Tom Cruise standards. It's a terrific movie. And Cameron decided as his follow-up movie, Jerry was his third movie. As his fourth movie, he decided not to do some big franchise with some big Hollywood stars. And he could have done that because he had the golden ticket after Jeremy McQuarr. He decided to go back and do this smaller movie with this unbelievable cast. And, you know, many were. almost unknown and to really do something that was personal and semi-autobiographical.

And I think that the opportunity, and I was so blessed that Cameron, Kate Hudson, Billy Crude Up, Jimmy Fallon, Peter Frampton, Nancy Wilson, all of them. Jason Lee, Francis McDormitt, who's won two Oscars. They all decided to cooperate with me. And one of the things that if people listen to this, they will hear is that, you this was a movie that was really impactful for all of them. And, you know, Kate Hudson tells a story right at the beginning where she said she was turning 40,

and she was in her therapist office, and she couldn't articulate what she wanted from her 40s and what she was feeling that moment. And she said, I just don't know how to put it, and her therapist said, you really want to just get back on the bus with Stillwater. And she said, yes, yes, that's it. That's what I'm feeling right now.

And, of course, Stillwater was the mythological BIA, band that was at the heart of illness famous. But the point is that this is the movie that it didn't leave us. It was yours. And it didn't leave the cast. I mean, some of those, Billy Crudeup said to me, Jim, I've been waiting 20 years to get a script like that again. And, you know, so one of the things that I think comes through in this is when you're

an actor and you're even a successful actor and you're getting lots of roles, sometimes when the Lord wants to punish you, he answers your prayers because he gives it to you. I mean, Zoe was 19, Kate Hudson was 19, Patrick Fugett, who played the lead, William, was only 15. And sometimes you get an experience like this. And then, oh, my gosh, wait, not all the movies are going to be like this. Not all the scripts are going to be like this, you know. And so it was a lot of fun. And it was also, for me, great to be able to talk to people about Phillips Seymour Hoffman, who was in this movie and, you know, tragically died.

And so I made sure to devote time in this podcast to talking about him and what an amazing actor he was. And there's some really great stories about things that he did on the set. And, you know, the fact that he had like 103 fever while he was shooting and a terrible flu and was like, you know, escaping to throw up in between scenes and stuff. And he was a real trooper. But I wanted also to make sure that Philip got his due. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down,

give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tap Little Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Little Kim? Yeah. Well, you can find him.

find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam Jett. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 is big to me, not just because of crack. I'm down to talk about crack on day, but yeah, yeah, yeah. But just so y'all know.

I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line. We also have AIDS on the table right now. Thank you for finishing that sentence. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Really? Yeah. For me, it's one of the most important years for black people in American history.

Listen to look back at it on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversation. with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase

that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth?

Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now.

What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out.

Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, rep, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Well, Cameron Crow is one of those unique people. And Hollywood has several.

of them. Several, I mean, maybe a half dozen to a dozen. He's a director, a producer, a screenwriter, a journalist, an author, an actor. He was a editor at Rolling Stone Magazine, and I think he may still occasionally write. He, I believe, the story I read, he wrote for them at 16 years old. Cameron Crowe wrote for them. I think he covered a band at 16 years old. When you talk about him, who do you compare him to? Like for instance, you know, there are movies. Is there another movie out there?

So almost famous clearly moved you. I'm thinking of the movie, was it diner that has this all-star cast? There are a handful of movies where all these young stars line up, Jim, and collaborate. And they all go on, you know, I remember the breakfast club is one that, you know, a generationally jumps out to me. is where would you categorize almost famous as a movie? Like what class do you put it in in terms of brain power and talent early in their career collaborating and connecting? Well, first, I just want to mention what you just said at the beginning, which was about Cameron 16. And this is not a shameless plug for my Twitter, but I put a thing today on Peter Frampton.

When Peter Frampton did his unbelievable Frampton coming a live album, it turns out of it. out that the first person who heard it outside of management and the studio was a 16-year-old named Cameron Crow. He was brought to the studio. Peter played the album for him, and he decided he liked it, and he wound up not only writing about it for Rolling Stone, but writing the lighter notes to the album. And as you know, that album was one of the greatest selling albums of all time. My sister had that. My older sister had that. I heard that album 50 times. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And so I put an audiogram up on Twitter today of Peter telling this crazy story. Like the first person is like we hear this, you know, a very important critic and unbelievably gifted writers are going to come by and listen to it. And it's a 16-year-old. And so, I mean, look, I think that the answer to your question, I mean, I'm not surprised because I think we often find our cases similar, but I definitely think. I mean, Diner. But Diner made way for Seinfeld in a way.

Diner was our wonderful introduction to Barry Levinson. And I think you got these powerful performances. And, you know, some of those people did not go on to have the careers that you might have thought that they would after seeing that movie. And a lot of that has to do with material because it's clear that they're incredibly. gifted in that movie. But Hollywood is this crapshoot. And, you know, one of the other things that I went into with Cameron, and I just saw the Rolling Stone just did a piece about it because they were saying things we didn't know about almost famous. But it turns out that originally, early on, Cameron was thinking about Merrill Streep for Francis McDormant's role,

Brad Pitt for Billy Kruyft's role, and Natalie Portman for Kate Hudson's role. And that's a totally, totally different movie. And if Kate Hudson doesn't get this movie, you know, I don't know, do we know as much about her as we do now? Is she the kind of, you know, star that she is now? Maybe not. I mean, maybe she would have gotten something else,

but this was the perfect vehicle for her. And we start to think about how important casting is and look some of these people that, and particularly, you know, the cast at Diner and some of these other actors, they may be up for roles, or they may be thinking about roles. You think about some of the crazy roles that people turn down

and they went on to be in those movies who are amazing. So it's all a crapshoot, you know. As William Golden once famously said about Hollywood, nobody knows nothing. You interviewed almost every single cast member. And for those who maybe are not, maybe not as steeped in Hollywood information, Cameron Crowe actually,

posed as a high school student, wrote about it, it became Fast Times at Ridgemont High. That's the first time I ever heard about him. Crazy. Yeah, I mean, at 22, at 22 years old. I mean, it's just insane. And I think anybody in my generation still can caddy shack and fast times at Ridgemont High, Jim, I can still quote it. That's a movie that matters to me.

It may not get nominated for this or that. If I can quote a movie 40 years later, that's an all-timer. That's a top 50 to 100 movie of all time. Jim Miller joining us. So it's the legacy of the movie. 20 years later, it's called Almost Famous. You interviewed almost every single cast member. How long did the process take?

Well, thank God it was pre-COVID because I actually got to sit down with everybody. And that was great because, you know, you get to develop a relationship, so to speak, in person that you can't have over Zooming. And the other thing I'll tell you is I had let Cameron know when I was interviewing Francis McDormid, and he surprised her and showed up at the end of our interview. And, you know, to see them together and for them to talk to each other about the movie that the way they did, I mean, there's not a lot of faking going on. There's just, this is real, this almost famous cast, the way they feel about each other. and it's pretty remarkable.

And Cameron is the kind of filmmaker that brings this out in people, you know, and you look at his other movies and the kind of talent that he, you know, he develops. In fact, one of the reasons why he started working with Brad Pitt on Onus Famous, they worked together, believe it or not, for four months, four months that they were working together on Onerus Famous while Brad was trying to find his way into the character is because Brad Pitt had called him early on and said to him, I just saw one of your movies, what do you have for me? And, you know, and people trust Cameron and people know that not only is the writing going to be great, but the situation on the set is great.

Because there's a lot of actors who, particularly when they get to a certain level, that they may say no to a movie because they don't want to be spending three, four, five months with a certain type of director. Sure. And Cameron has this unbelievable reputation with everybody that he works with of just being this, you know, incredible human being and a practicing adult. Yeah. So I don't want to give away too much. The podcast is Origins.

It's Jim Miller. If you've ever watched the movie, almost famous, it's a 20th anniversary. And they have five episodes, producer John Goulet, I'm going to partner. I'm going to Park City for the weekend, so I'm going to listen. My producer, John Goulet, is a couple in and said it's absolutely fantastic. Thank you, John. Yes, John is a smart guy. Despite some of my misgivings, he's giving me a thumbs up.

He can drive me nuts, but I love him. Jim Miller, writer, producer, executive media consultant. And by the way, people are at home more than ever. I strongly encourage you to read the books. If you like sports, ESPN, those guys have all the phone. If you're into Saturday Night Live and it's history, live from New York, the complete uncensored history of Saturday Night Live. And if you like the wonkiness of Hollywood and the power and the vanity and the intensity

and the backroom meetings of Hollywood, by the book CAA, the untold history of Hollywood's Creative Artist's Agency. These are fascinating reads. They're not fast reads. But you're, explain to the audience, Jim, that has not read your. books, the style in which you do this, which I find, frankly, in these times, very easy to consume. Well, it's in the oral history tradition. And one of the things that I like about it, even though I think it's harder than just sitting down and running a book, is that you get to hear the different rhythms and the different personalities of the people involved.

And this was, the first time was with, my first book was about the Senate and I just sat down and wrote it. But when it came to Saturday Night, I just felt like there's no way to, how do you capture the difference between like Billy Crystal and Dana Carvey or Lorraine Newman or, you know, Tina Fey or somebody? Everybody's talking in their own way. And then I write interstitials around that. And my next book, which I'm working on now on HBO in the history of nearly 50 years of HBO, I'm doing the same thing, which is, you know, particularly for, it's just last week interviewing Larry David for about Curb Your Enthusiasm. And there's no way, even if I was freaking Ernest Hemingway, that I could sit down at the keyboard and write everything about Curb Your Enthusiasm as opposed to letting Larry speak about it in his own unique voice. And same thing with David Chase.

And when I interviewed him about the Sopranos and other places, it's just that there is a uniqueness to that. And the other thing that I think I hear from people is that it's the kind of book where, you know, all of a sudden you just decide you're going to close your eyes and you're going to open up to a certain page. And yes, there is an absolute narrative structure running through each chapter. And there's a narrative structure running through the entire sweep of the book. but if you're after just some delicious morsels and you just want to start, you know, kind of getting into, you know, the heads of some of these people,

you can just pick it up and start reading. And so I've always been a fan of oral history. And, you know, so keep at it with HBO. Jim Miller, absolute pleasure. Hope you all enjoyed our Saturday podcast till we speak again. Jim, thank you so much. Thank you for having me back.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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