The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Draymond Green Show - Isiah Thomas

Episode Date: March 12, 2024

Isiah Thomas joins The Draymond Green Show to discuss his favorite advice from Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, his relationship with the Detroit Pistons, his experience watching ‘The Last Dance’, whether Michael Jordan left him off the Dream Team, if their relationship is salvageable, Steph Curry’s place in the all-time point guard debate, Kevin Durant’s impact on the Golden State Warriors, Kenyon Martin taking out Karl Malone on his behalf, and more. 0:00 Start 5:00 Kareem’s advice 8:00 Pistons relationship 22:00 The Last Dance 31:00 MJ & Dream Team 42:00 Steph Curry 51:00 Kevin Durant & Warriors Produced by: Jackson Safon #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The thrill and excitement of Marchmania is here in Draft King Sportsbook. One of America's top-rated sportsbook apps is giving new customers a shot to turn five bucks into $150 instantly in bonus bets with any college basketball bet. Currently, Yukon is the favorite on Draft Kings at plus 500 to win the title. My favorite team here in Tucson, Arizona, the Arizona Wildcats are currently plus 1,200. Download the Draft King Sportsbook app and use code. Hoops. That's H-O-O-P-S. New customers can bet five bucks to get $150 instantly in bonus bets. Only at Draft King's Sportsbook with Code Hoops. Again, that's H-O-O-P-S. The Crown is yours.

Gambling problem? Call 1-800 gambler or in West Virginia visit www.1-800 gambler.net. In New York, call 8778, Hope N.Y or text Hope N-Y to 467-9. In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling. Call 88878-97777 or visit ccpg.org. Please play responsibly on behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Kansas. 21 plus age varies by jurisdiction. Void in Ontario. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance.

See dkng.com slash be ball for eligibility and deposit restrictions, terms, and responsible gaming resources. What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Draymond Green Show. It's an honor. It's always honor to have a guest. But when you have a Hall of Famer NBA champion, one of the goats,

you can't help but be thankful and be honored. And today I have the honor of being joined by two-time NBA champion, NBA Finals MVP. In 1990, the year I was born, such a great year. Incredible year, 1990, baby. 12-time NBA All-Star, three-time all-N-BA, first team, two-time all-MBA, second team, and his number 11 is retired by my hometown, my home state, I should say, Detroit Pistons. Isaiah Thomas D. Isaiah Thomas, Zeke, the goat.

Welcome to the Draymond Green Show, my friend. Thank you, and it is an honor to be here. I wore this shirt just to represent, you know, us and what we represent. for the state of Michigan and appreciate you and thank you for inviting me on your show and proud to be here with you all your talent, your executives,

and mom who stepped in in the background earlier right on, new media. Yes, sir, new media, baby. By the way, for those of y'all out there listening this interview, my mom just stepped on here for a second before we started. Zeke is my mom's favorite player.

growing up in Saginaw, Michigan. Her teams, the Detroit Pistons growing up. Zeke comes and brings us hope, him, Joe Dumars, the bad boys, they come, they bring two championships to the state. And my mom, every since I can remember, you know, everybody grow up talking about who their favorite players, every since I could remember my mom talk about Isaiah Thomas.

So this is huge. This is big for me. But just getting into it, man, How long have you been working in the NBA? Because you've obviously been a player. You have obviously done TV as you're doing now. You've been a front office. You've been a coach.

How long has it been that you've been working in the NBA? Wow, that's a great question. You know, I was 19 when I came in. And actually I played my first game. I was 20. So 40, like maybe 43 years, you know, I'm basking, you know, playing front office, owning, managing, TV. I've been a part of the NBA. I'm on my third commissioner now.

I started with Larry O'Brien, and you're familiar with the Larry O'Brien trophy. And I went to David Stern, now Adam Silver. So I've seen a lot. and being a former president of the union. So I've been around a long time, and not only have I've been around a long time, but I've seen the growth and the changes that have occurred. And I would encourage you and all of the young fellas

who are coming out, you know, basketball of this career, it can last a long time. It doesn't end when you stop playing. And now your second career starts. And you're doing that now. You know, you're being basketball 40, 50 years. And that's the goal. You know, that's the goal for all of us, you know, not to play and then leave,

but play, stay, and extend and give the knowledge on to the next generation. Being that you've seen, and number one, I thank you for that advice. You know, like you said, obviously, I want to set up my path so that I can be a part of league for a long time. You know, the NBA has done such an incredible job, I think, of creating these different avenues that we as players who obviously do our part in growing this game. And I think it's a beautiful thing when you have these different avenues that we can continue in when we're done playing.

Because the reality is, you know, for a lot of us, all you know initially is the NBA. You know, you come out of college, you come into the NBA, and that's all you know. And when you get out of that, so many guys struggle because you don't know anything else. You don't know, and I say air quotes, you don't know the real world. You know, I always say, like, we do, like, real work and we have real responsibilities, but the NBA I always say it's a fantasy land. Like, you get to play basketball every day. You get to hang around great people.

It's not always that way. I've been fortunate enough to be on one NBA team, but the, you know, the, you know, travel, the hotels, all of these different things, they are great. And so I always say, like, it's a fantasy land for us. So, you know, just to your point of staying in this, I think that's an incredible thing. Yeah, absolutely. And I got some good advice at a very young age. And it actually came from Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

It was, you know, our first All-Star game. And he was sitting there reading a book. And nobody, you know, was coming. up speaking to him or anything. And you know me. I mean, you know me, right? I'm like, hey, I'm, right? So I walked up to him and I just, you know, trying to gain some knowledge. I, you know, I said, if you can give me any advice, you know, coming into this, you know, MBA, you know, career that I'm getting ready to start, what advice would you give me? And I still hold on to it today. He said, as best you can, try to stay normal, wash your own clothes, iron,

your clothes, still do the dishes, still take out trash, you know, do the things that normal, regular people in society do, because as you just explained, Draymond, it's a fantasy world, it's a fantasy land in the NBA. And when you come out, right, you ain't going to be on a private plane all the time. You may have to go to the airport, you know, you may have to stand in line, you're going to have to get your bags out of baggage claim and everything. Everything that regular people do, right? that's what you should keep trying to do.

And the second thing I would say along that journey, what I figured out, you know, and I think the reason why, you know, your mom would say, I'm a favorite player, not because of what I did on the basketball court, but what I did off the court, just by showing up in the neighborhood, just by talking to people, just by being regular, right? You know, being a normal person, that carries a lot of weight. And the thing that you can do, you know, I would say for yourself and for others who are listening, former players, current players. Hey, man, just try to stay amongst the people, not above the people. Always be one who are amongst the people and never above.

Ah, man, that's wonderful. Coming from the west side of Chicago and then getting drafted to the Detroit Pistons. Do you think that kind of helped your transition in the sense of Detroit being a similar type of city as Chicago and, you know, the people being similar, you know, just kind of having that feel of being at home when you got to the city of Detroit? 100%. You know, I'm like you in a lot of ways we were raised very similar. You know, we didn't travel outside of our state. we didn't have no money. He'd bought it.

So, you know, when I first got to Detroit, I knew nobody. And but my mom, just like your mom, had made some phone calls. And it was like, hey, they kept my son when he gets there. And one of the people that she called that I had no idea that she even had this type of clout, right? She called Mayor Coleman Young and said, when my son gets there, I want you to look out for him. So when I get to Detroit, I get a welcome at from the mayor, you know, from Coleman. And then, you know, he introduced, you know, Aretha and everyone. So I always felt, and I still feel like this today, that I feel like in Michigan, I'm everybody's cousin, brother, brother.

I feel like I'm a family member of everybody. Like, and everybody treats me that way. I go back home to Michigan and, you know, it's like, hey, I try to check out of the hotel. They say, hey, you don't have to pay. I try to buy some food in the restaurant. The manager come out, say, no, that's on me. So it's being from the west side of Chicago, but then coming to Detroit and filling in love and being embraced by everybody in Detroit. And still today, it is no place on earth that I get treated.

better than when I'm in Detroit. Man, that's so incredible. That's so incredible. You, a lot like myself, I've had the, so far, had the pleasure and honor of being with one team like yourself. And obviously, I'm still playing. But, you know, our ownership group has been absolutely amazing. Like, I couldn't have asked to play for a team with a better,

ownership group. And since you've been a Detroit Piston, that's changed. How have you, how, how, how, how you're treated by franchises, is that the same is it different from, you know, the owner being who's the owner when you were playing there, Bill Davidson, and now the owner being Tom Gore's like, is, is that same olive branch still extended to you the way it was when the previous owner was there? So the olive branch is extended as a guest. You're always welcome as a guest. But I'm not inside the organization, right?

And it's okay because they have work, they have managers and they have to do their thing. But from a knowledge standpoint, what I think a lot of organizations miss. which now that I'm in corporate America, they never miss. They never let knowledge and brains walk out of the door. Right. They have advisors, consultants, board members, everything gets. That historical institutional knowledge never gets to walk out of the door.

What happens in the NBA for former players, that knowledge base, it gets to walk out of the door. and it goes someplace else. And that's the one thing that I think, like, owners do miss in this space. They don't recognize the institutional knowledge that has been built up over years, and they let it walk out of the door. Now, case in point, Joe Dumas leaves the floor. I left the floor, and I was the first owner, part owner of a team to Toronto. Raptors that started in Toronto, first international team.

So I left the floor transition right into management, right into ownership of an expansion. Joe Dumars leaves the floor with that same Detroit Pistons institutional knowledge, and he goes into the front office. And they win a championship, you know, with Ben Wallace, Chauncey, Rift, you know, Rashid, that group. And so they kept, Mr. D kept that institutional knowledge inside. New owners, they come in and everybody wants to make a splash and they wants to, you know, input, imprint their own name on the team. So they always bring in new people.

Well, when you bring in new people, it takes, you know, you lose 20, 30 years of institutional knowledge that walks out of the door. Most corporations don't do that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's interesting. I didn't even think about it from that perspective, but I think that's a great perspective because you're right. Like when I look at some company, it's like, okay, this guy was the CEO.

Now he's the chairman. You know, so, you know, Phil Knight, for instance. We'll go Phil Knight, right? Like Phil Knight, founder of Nike, was the CEO for so many years. Then he became the chairman of Nike. And so you're still sitting in the board meetings. maybe you're not making the final call, although if you're still sitting there,

you have some say in the final call, and you're not trying to replace all those things. And I think that's a brilliant thing that more NBA teams need to start taking into account, especially with this younger generation of guys that's coming in. Because they come in, you know, a lot of these young guys, they come in not being fans of the NBA.

You know, like when we came up, and I sound like I'm way older than I am, But, you know, when we were coming, like, we were huge fans of the NBA, you know, like, a huge fan of this player. You knew who that player was. You know, we have some of these young guys now don't know who World Be Free is. Let's say World Be Free. They're like, who?

We had a young guy a few weeks ago. And Chris Paul was talking about World Be Free. And he like, World Be Free. And C.P. start telling him about World Be Free. And he comes back like, yo, he averaged this amount of points like this is. crazy, but they don't know that these days. And I think that that's obviously just a small part of it, right? That's a small part of it, but that's a huge part of it. And now I'll take you back to the union, right? Because as a former president of a union and now a past president,

but we always try to ensure is that, you know, the next man up had institutional knowledge. And then your generation changed that a little bit, right? But when you look over across the aisle at the NBA, I mentioned Larry O'Brien. Underneath him was David Stern, who took over. And then underneath David Stern was who? Adam Silver. Who took over.

So they never let that knowledge walk out of the door. Whereas in the union, we always let this guy. come out. We get a search committee to find it. Has the NBA ever had, has the owners ever had a search committee? No, sorry. Excuse me for laughing.

I'm sorry, but it's like we constantly let it walk out of the door. And, you know, there's an old African proverb that says each one teach one. And we don't teach. We don't

teach. We don't, We don't pass on the knowledge to each other. As a matter of fact, we get separated. And the, okay, I'm going to call you new media. But old media, right, was a lot about pitting us against each other, making us not like each other, making us not communicate because then it was best for the audience that they were serving. But new media coming along,

insiders who have like yourself, you know, who like, you know, Matt Barnes and that group, I mean, y'all making everybody now communicate and talk. And because we're communicating and talking, guess what we're doing?

We're teaching and we're spreading knowledge. And that young fellow who just found out about world be free, right? That's not, nobody else's fault except ours because we're not talking to each other. make us, you know, don't like each other for some other reasons.

But they're entertaining. I agree. Facts. I agree 100%. I remember when I first came into the league, maybe like my second year in the league, I want to say, could have possibly been my, no, I'd say my second year,

at least the summer going into my second year. We were going through the search committee. We were about to replace at the time Billy Hunter as the NFL at NBA. PA, executive, what is it, executive president,

executive director. And I remember you were in the room and you were in a sense trying to go for the job. And if my brain, if I can jog my brain correctly, it wasn't taken very seriously

at all. It was almost like guys were fighting against it, if I remember correctly. Did you kind of get that sense when you were trying to do that? And was that the reasoning behind it is what you're speaking to now is about that knowledge and being able to pass that knowledge down, being through three commissioners and kind of understanding the lay of the land? Yeah, you've kind of right at the ship now because you got Andre running your union.

So now you got a chance to course correct. So that day you're talking about, if you're. remember myself Spencer Haywood and I'm not sure if Oscar Oskar Robertson came him that day but we were we were all trying

to meet with y'all just to say hey here's a history lesson that you need to be aware of before you before you go down this track let us tell you where we've been

so you can make the correct decision or at least involve us in decision-making. And I never forget David West in that meeting. Love what he... Do you remember him? Group economics. Group economics. Group economics.

Absolutely. Yes. So much so, about 15 minutes into it, he kept saying that they were ignoring him, Dee West got up and walked out. Yes. And what happened, that day, did I get upset? No, I didn't get upset because I understand the game that they play

with y'all. And my goal and my job has always been is to inform and give you the knowledge, right? And people on the outside, they get mad at me and they spread a lot of rumors or stories about me, and they don't want y'all talking to me because they're like, well, he's going to tell you this, he going to tell you that. Don't believe this, don't believe that. And before you know it, you've got disconnected from the information. And because you get disconnected from the information, they can take advantage of some of you.

Not all of you. But as you know, we got some players who are still getting taken advantage of. And my goal, as a former president, was to always spread the knowledge and to give information. And you should ask the guy who represents you, how he got into the business. I know y'all got that connection. Andres from Springfield,

Chicago. I definitely know there's a relationship. Oh, Rich Paul. Ask him one day to tell you the story of how he got into the business. Okay. All right. I'm going to have to come back to y'all,

Draymond Green Show listeners with this one. I have to come back to y'all with this one. But speaking, I'm going to enrich his mentors to get him started. I respect that. Well, I'll tell you this. I appreciate you because he's been incredible for me. The knowledge that he's been sharing with me, the business, he's helped me sign some great contracts.

And when I say great contracts, I don't mean just the money because it's not all about the money. The devil is in the details. and the details in my contracts I am so pleased with because it ends up being worth more than just the money. The dollar amount that you see when you start adding in kickers and payment schedule and all of these different things, it end up being worth more than just that dollar you see that flash across the ticker.

So I'm going to say this for you right here. I appreciate you because that man has helped me a ton. But speaking in terms of pitting players together in 2020, and I know you've heard this a lot, in 2020, we all sitting at home watching the last dance with nothing else to do. And I was just wondering, number one, did you watch that? And if you did watch it, what was your experience like watching that, being that you were such a huge part of the last dance

and or just the bulls becoming who they became as a whole? Did you watch that? And if you did, what was your experience like in watching? Yeah, I watched it. And I watched it with, you know, it was doing COVID. So, you know, the family, we gather around. And, you know, this is going to be great. Because for me, and you understand this when I say this, being a champion, right?

It was the first time I really got a chance to peek behind the opponent's curtain. right and no one else could understand that right but you would understand it's like okay now we get ready to see like what's behind the curtain

and and I and I must say that I was I was disappointed at what I saw and here's why I was disappointed you you have

you have Bob Myers there as your as your president and GM. The Chicago boys had Jerry Krauss as their president. The way they treated Jerry Krauss in the disrespect that they showed for him, I was blown away, totally blown away. Now, can you imagine Bob Myers

getting on your championship bus and y'all dogging him and calling him out his name and everything else? You can't even fathom that. No, no chance. We were thinking, you know, in our era, these were the dudes. Jerry West, Red Arbach, Jack McCloskey, Wayne Embry, Jerry Cross. Those were the dudes.

And to watch how they treated him in the disrespect and lack of respect that they gave him as a person and as a man. It was cringe-worthy watching that. I cringed for him and his family. And then the man, you know, he was dead, right? So it's going off on him in the dock. Now, in terms of Jordan and I, as I said, my little nephew lived with Jordan, lived with him for like, you know, five years. And then was a ball boy for the Chicago Bulls.

And so my whole family was like, you know, we were all interacting and everything else. The All-Star game, Michael Jordan's last All-Star game, I coached his last All-Star game. Vince Carter, yeah, Vince Carter have won the starting spot. It's Michael Jordan's last All-Star game. I took Vince Carter aside, and I convinced him to give his spot to Michael. Jordan. He said, why? I said, because I gave mine to Dr. Jay when Dr. Jay wasn't voted on. That's how it goes, right? Vince Carter gave up his spot. Michael Jordan, you know, we interacted, everything else. I never knew this dude felt the way he felt until the last band.

Wow, really? I'm like, all these years, you've been standing behind. a tree throwing stones and letting somebody else take the fall for it. I never knew he had dislike and anger for me. Had I known, okay, you know, I'm a grown man. I ain't got no problem. You know, we cut from the same place. You know, at one point in time in my life, I used to fight really, really good. And I enjoy it.

No, I can't do that as well as I used to. But we wouldn't throw hands or anything, but I'm just saying, had I known you felt that way, I definitely would have treated you differently. But I was very gracious to him, not only in Chicago, but everywhere we went. I never thought there was any type of, you know, he, Ahmad and I, when I stopped playing,

we went out to dinner several times, So I never knew, like, until the last dance, like, this dude really felt this way about me. Now, some people would say, oh, Isaiah, you should have known. How could you not know? Hey, I only know how people are with me when they treat me. Like, when you and I talk, it's like, it's love, right? Now, if you walk away and you, like, dog in me, I don't know that. I only know how we interact.

And when you and I interacted, it was always good. Now, some people will say, well, why didn't you shake his hand? Let me give you all a history lesson, okay? The champions, and I went to every NBA finals, Boston Celtics, the L.A. Lakers, Philadelphia, when they were all competing, at the end of the game, they always left the court. and they would let the other team celebrate. And then they would come into your locker room after the game and shake your hand and say congratulations. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson,

y'all find me to tape in the video that showed them at the end of their championship wins or losses. Show me the tape, show me the video, They all like, chicken hand. Where Larry Bird and Magic Johnson are shaking hand. I want to see that. Now, in the locker room, you walk out, then you come back and you shake hands

and you congratulate everybody back in the locker room. So when the Boston Celtics walked off the floor on us, we understood the program. You would see afterwards Casey Jones, Jimmy Rogers, a couple of the players, they came into all locker room, and they congratulated us. Okay?

That's how it goes. Chicago, they're the only champion that still cries about somebody not shaking their hand. Interesting. So I ask you this question. I appreciate those facts. I got a couple questions for you.

Number one, do you regret, like the, way that that all played out, would it almost being like, I mean, you were essentially, for lack of a better term, demonized for that. It was like, oh, that was Isaiah.

Isaiah ducked. It was all Isaiah didn't want to shake their hands because he got a thing against MJ. Do you regret that now in seeing how it all played out? Of course, the way it all played out, right? had we known that this would be the impact, of course we all stopped and shake your hand.

But nobody was thinking like that back then. It really wasn't a thing until they made it a thing. And we sitting here, what is it, almost 30 years later, and they still making it a thing. Sure. Almost 40 years later now. No, listen, I get it. But I have also a question.

When you didn't make the dream team, as I all think, I think we all would agree you should have been on a dream team. Did you not think that that possibly came from MJ? Like, that MJ will have that type of power so that you don't make that team? Did you feel like that then or at any point? when I didn't make the team, my first reaction was, why did not make it? Right?

And that was the first time I had never made the team. You know, you, you know, when you try for a team, remember they used to write your name up on the wall, you made it, right? My name was always on the wall. I was always, I always made the team, right? And so that was the first time I didn't make a team. And so, of course, I was like I was hurt. But at the same time, it never dawned on me that I didn't make the team because Michael Jordan didn't like me.

That thought never crossed my mind. I went to the selection committee. And John Stockton is a personal friend of mine and has been a personal friend of mine for a long. time. Jeff Hornisack, you know, his dad coached me in high school, right? So, so when you look at my relationships, you know, with, with Hornacek, Stockton, you know, we've

known each other for years. So when I never thought like, okay, I wasn't going to make the team. But when I looked at the, you know, who they picked, you know, I, it's like, okay, well, they picked this guy, they pick John, they picked this. Now, and then, then,

I started thinking, okay, well, and you know, you always want to make the team, okay, I'm like, okay, but Larry hurt, magic ain't even in the league no more, right? You know, Stockton injured, okay, I got a chance. It never crossed my mind that I wasn't on a team because Michael Jordan didn't want me on a team. And by the way, at that time, you're not thinking like somebody would have that much power. because that was their first championship. Now, I had, I had won two, should have won three. Magic and Bird, I think, had five, Magic had five, Bird had three. I had two. We had won the most championships in that era.

So I didn't, I wasn't thinking like, it just wasn't crossed in my mind. Some people would say, oh, Isaiah, you should have known. to the, but that ain't how I operate. That ain't how I think. I wasn't like going to, you know, oh, this guy didn't want me on a team. That's why I'm not on the team. And then it started coming out weeks later,

well, Jordan don't like Isaiah. He didn't want him on a team. And then Michael Jordan did an interview or he did a made a quote and he said, hey, I had nothing to do with Isaiah not being on a team. So why wouldn't I take him at his word? That's what he said. last day and said,

oh, this dude been lying for a long time. You know, that's when, now you see me like, wait a minute. Okay, because now I'm like, okay, I'm pushing back now. But it really wasn't nothing to push back on at that time. Because I didn't make the team. Rodman didn't make the team. Robbin was three times the first of the year. Joe Dumas did.

make the team. Joe Dumas was, you know, 89 NBA finals MVP. I was 90 finals MVP. We're the only back court that's ever been back to back NBA

finals MVP's. So Joe wasn't on a team. Robin wasn't on a team. I wasn't on a team. So now we're like, oh, well, the league hate us. We never said Jordan hate us. They're like, oh, the league hate us.

Davis-Stern, because we was fighting with Davis-Stern in the NBA ever since I got into the NBA. That's been all fighting. Right. Right. So, but I never, I never went to Jordan, but now I am. I respect that. Where is your relationship at today?

And is that salvageable? No. Not salvageable. Now, the only way this is salvageable, this dude got on national television, international television, and called me an asshole, somebody who's been really good to him. And until he apologizes on international television, we, no conversation. You can't, you can't apologize and have a private dinner when you don't. embarrass me publicly. If you didn't mean it,

say it publicly. Now, if you meant it, let it stand. I'm good with that. I respect that. And switching gears, you know, we always talk about the drastic styles of play or drastic changes, I should say,

to the style of play from when you guys played even to the early years of, say, LeBron and Kobe, you know, and those guys, the early 2000 Shack, Duncan, and to, you know, 2010's and to where the game is today. It's totally different. It's officiated differently. Some rules are different, but I think we all know and see the changes to the offense. And there's been some recent reports coming out that the NBA, is looking at shifting back to some of the rules that you guys play with,

possibly being able to hand-check again, being able to play a lot more physical on the defensive end as you have been able to in recent years. It's kind of tilted a bit so it seems to favor the offense. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think that's good for the game? Do you think that's needed? Or do the offense get way too much freedom of movement

and all of those things nowadays? What is your sense on that? I think that, well, yes, it definitely has changed and it has shifted. And I would say skill-wise, skill, you have more skilled players on the roster and under the team than we had back then. Now, what do I mean by skill? Everybody can shoot. everybody you can't leave

nobody I mean everybody can shoot and then the the three point line in the distance in terms of

where guys are shooting from is is mind blowing it's remarkable now in terms of the

the defense swinging back to where it was I think we think we have to be careful because we can

we can all have these thoughts of how it should be. But it's really going to come down to the officials. Back then, all officials knew like, okay, and check in, you know, being physical with, you know, they could have called a foul on every single play. But they were selective in terms of what plays they were called on. And we knew as players, you know, kind of how the game was. was going to go. They would set the table early in terms of, okay, these are the rules. This is how this game is going to be played. Now, tomorrow or night games may be different, right? Like, we knew, like, Magic Johnson has a, and by the way, I watched all the Olympics, and I root it for the U.S.

But I, but there was, there's a scene in there with Magic and Larry are taking a picture with Michael George, and Magic goes, oh, you can't get too close. You know they go call the five. right? Do you ever that lot? Absolutely. Yeah, so you just know like, I don't know if these

officials today can really control a game the way those officials back then were able to do. So when you're talking about changing the rules

and everything else, you know, you have to take into account the temperament and the personality of the officials who are going to be officiating the game.

And that, I, I, I, okay, so I'm watching, I'm watching some players like, okay,

you, you take a, you take a look at, okay, let's use Kevin Durant and Steph Curry, right? Now,

ever since they've been talking about, you know, you, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to let you hold and hand check a little bit. I'm watching Steph.

I'm watching, Kevin, and these guys are getting held now away from the bar and I'm sure you're watching too. I mean, they having to wrestle and they getting beat up. I don't know if that's really good for this generation. Now, for our generation,

we were used to it. Right? So we were used to you know, you're pulling on all sure, you're hacking us, you're hitting upside to head. But if you just go drastically into it now, you know, some of your best players are really

going to get hurt by it. And speaking of Steph, how do you look at the, how do you look at the all-time great point guard conversation? Like, obviously you're right up there. Obviously, Steph's right up there. Obviously, magic's right up there.

But how do you look at that debate? Or do you even think, like, those should be debates? They should be debates because they're good for basketball, and it's good for, you know, we always want the general public to be interested. in what we're doing good of that. Absolutely. Absolutely.

So when you when you define the position of point guard, you know, this is an era where they say we are positionless. But then you want to say, okay, well, he's

a point guard, he's not a point guard. So let me just tell you the way I think about point guards. And the Golden State Warriors, you are the point guard. You have more assist than Steph. You bring the ball up. You initiate the offense.

You set the defense. You run the show. Steph comes off screens. He catches and he shoots. And he's one of the greatest shooters ever. And what he's been able to do for this generation of play and the way he's won with it, key word, the way he's won with it,

has been different than anybody else has ever tried to do it. I won a different way. As a point guard, I led my team, and I may be the only one who's done this as a point guard where I've led my team in scoring and assists to back-to-back championships.

I don't think Magic led his team in scoring in a sense, in back-to-back championships, he may have led them in assists, he may have led them in scoring. I'm the only one that's done it in both categories. Now, what Steph, when I look at Steph, I look at Steph,

when he talks about the people that he's emulated, he talks about Reggie Miller, he talks about Ray Allen, he talks about, you know, guys coming off catching and shooting. And he by far has taken, making it to another level. But when you talk about the point guard position,

the way I was taught and the way I think of it, not today's point guard, but I would say that the Michigan State point guards, right? So Eric Snow had Alan Iverson, right? Alan Iverson was not the point guard. Eric Snow was the point guard. They'd never want to give Eric Snow to credit for being the point guard,

But that's who ran the team. For the Golden State Warriors, you're the point guard, and that's okay. Now, what Steph is, Steph has been able to do something at his size that no other player has ever been able to do. So he really does have his kind of own category, just like I think I have my category. But if you want to say who's the best point guards between us, it all depends on what error you want to put us in. Now, I think Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, because of their size, they always have an advantage over me and Steph in a real basketball game, right? And Magic could score, he could run the show. and he, to me, he's the best

to ever do it. Second best is Oscar Robertson. And I would say, in terms of the way I had to do it in my era, the little guys don't nobody compete with me. But I would also say with Steph Curry, the way

he has done it, nobody could compete with him. Alan Iverson was the closest small guy to come to doing it the way Steph is doing it, you know, but he, he by far is in a different category. So point guard, shooting guard, whatever you want to call them, you know, the assist number for the point guard is always what we were like, okay, can you do this, right?

That's what really what you were judged on. We weren't judged on how many points we scored. we were judged on how can you help your teammate school? I can appreciate that answer because I was going to sit here and argue with you by my point guard. But then you said he's in a whole different category and how he goes about things. So I can accept that. But I also do think like when we were playing for Mark Jackson, Steph had the ball more.

He led the team and assists and all of that. Once Steve came in, it's not quite the offense. You know, like the offense is all, you know, swing the basketball, move the ball to the next guy. Ultimately, I remember when Steve first was implementing his offense, we're like, man, like, you keep telling us to swing the ball. You keep telling Steph to pass the ball and pin down. Like, Steph's supposed to get these shots, man.

And I remember Steve telling us, like, you guys are looking at me like I'm crazy because I keep telling this guy to swing it and Clay to swing it and they should be pinning in too. he said, but I'll tell you all, the shots are going to find the guys that they're supposed to find. I can promise you that. You just got to trust it. If you trust it, I promise you the shots will find the guys that they're supposed to find.

And so I do think, you know, like the way our offense run and me having the ball a lot and initiating some of the offense, I do think, you know, that is also kind of a product of our system as well, you know, where Steph isn't going to dominate the ball. You know, he's not going to have the ball all the time, making play after play after play, because it's just not, like, if Steph did do that, Steve will lose his mind. Like, Steve would go, ape shit if Steph just sat there and, like, was trying to make every play. Like, he just had a, like, we were playing the Knicks the other day,

and I was trying to wave Moses through to get Steph coming off the pin down. He pulled me to the side. He's like, yo, just swing it to Moses. Like, stop trying to get the ball of Steph. Like, it'll find Steph. you got to swing that ball to Moses. And I'm like, all right, cool, I got you.

But, like, I think Steve will lose his mind if Steph was trying to lead, you know, if he was putting himself in a position to lead the team and assist or do it that way. I don't think it would necessarily work for the way Steve wants us to play, either, you know? Yeah. So now I'm going to give you a history lesson, okay? The offense that you run, I played for the guy who invented it. his name was Bob Knight. Absolutely.

Yes. I won championships at Indiana University as a student under Bob Knight. When I got into the NBA, I had never ran a pick and roll in my life. I had never ran a picking role in my life. I played passing game in high school. I played passing game in college. When I got to the NBA,

they gave me a playbook and told me I had to review. remember the plays. I'm like, what for, what's, what, play 72, play 32 down, 52 of, 70, what the hell is this? So, so, so what you're describing and in terms of your style of play in, and in Steve Kerr's basketball philosophy, that passing game, reading, react, move the basketball, sets green, that comes from Coach Knight's philosophy and how offensive basketball should be played. And by the way, your team is very successful with it

and have been successful with it. And that's what makes Steph Curry such an anomaly because you guys don't really have a point guard. You don't have traditional one, two, three, four, five, man. You don't post up, you know, and put it in the boat. You move, re-react, back cut, dribble handoff. You force the defense to play every single action.

And if that defense isn't on a string, it only takes one man to break, right? And if that defense isn't on a string, and they don't understand how to defend downscreens, cross screens, flare screens, dribble handoff, you know, split cuts. If they don't understand how, and they're not tight enough

to defend all that, then guess what? You're going to get a layup. I'm going to go one step further, right? You know that I've gotten to know Kevin Durant extremely well now. He's one of my favorite dudes now, right? Now I understand why Kevin Durant

left OKC to come to Golden State. It had nothing to do with you know, I don't like this got a... Kevin Durant being a savant as smart as he is. You, Steph, Clay, moving, reading, reacting, plant. That's the way he wants to play. That's the way we all want to play. Steve Kerr, brilliant enough,

and he trusts y'all enough. And key word that I'm getting ready to say, he trusts his teaching enough that he gives you the freedom, the freedom to play. So therefore, you never know if Steph's going to start in the corner, if he going to start on the wing, if he's going to start on the box, you know, you never know. So the perfect randomness of play that Bob Knight invented that I came up in, that I came up in, that I want to chance. championships at Indiana, that's the way you play, and that makes it so difficult. So, yeah, it's a beautiful thing. You watch.

I appreciate that history lesson. And I'll be honest with you. I can go, well, speaking to Kevin Durant, I'm happy to hear you say that because I've known this all alone, right? Like, he wanted to come here. He loved the style of play. he would always say like, you know, I just want to play basketball the right way.

Like I haven't played the game of basketball the right way and I don't know how long, and I just want to play the right way when he was coming here. And there was this whole, you know, uproar. Traybine was recruited and missed that. And he, no, dude wanted to play the game the right way. And so, in saying that, probably didn't make the right decision in leaving

because not many teams play like that. It's going to be hard to find that all. though I think with book, you know, book likes to play the game the right way. And so I think they're finding some of that in Phoenix. But it's never quite going to be this, because I think we do play a different brand of basketball.

But before we get out of here, wait, wait, let me make a bold statement here. Yes, sir. And I hope this don't upset you. But it because I'm, I'm giving you all compliment.

before Kevin Durant arrived in Golden State, Golden State, y'all were on the verge of and being remembered as the team that went 73 and 9 and lost to a Cleveland Cavalier team in the finals 3 to 1. You up 3 to 1 and probably one of the biggest collapse in NBA finals history from a 73 and 9 historical team. Kevin Durant comes that summer and really saves y'all basketball legacy.

And you win two championships after that. And now you're the Golden State Warriors dynasty that you're going to go into the Hall of Fame on and everything else. It is cemented. because if Durant don't come that summer, and you guys are remembered as the 73 and 9 team that lost 3 to 1 in the NBA finals, all of your legacies are different.

So all of you with Kevin Durant, y'all are, you know, right? And that was a powerful moment in sport that he should be rewarded for, but also your team should be rewarded for accepting a juggernaut like that and being able to incorporate it. And what y'all did was beautiful, man. It was beautiful.

So I hope that didn't hurt you in any way, but I did want to acknowledge him and y'all for that beautiful moment. Yeah, no, it didn't hurt me at all. I've actually gone public and said before, like, yo, Kay coming here, opened up a totally different thing. Like, you know, we were destroying everybody. The most feared action in the NBA was a Steph Curry, Draymond Green pick and roll.

2015, 2016, it was the most devastating action you can get to an NBA during that time. Teams started figuring out how to guard it. When teams started figuring out how to guard that, you know what we did? Kevin Durant came in. It's like, oh, you figure that out. All right, well, let's go see you figure this out now. We're going to get a ball to this dude. He's going to go score.

And if you dare send a double team, you're only going to double off me. You're never leaving Steph. You're never leaving Clay. So if you send a double team, you're only helping off me. Well, now we got a counter to that too. You go double off of me. I'm a catch. And if I'm not shooting, I'm handing off to one of these guys,

and they shooting your eyeball off. And so we came up with counter. or all of that. And I think, you know, I am never one that's going to be like, yo, Kay got championships because he came here. Like, no, he helped us get championships. Now, what I will say is he never gets the championship if he doesn't come here because I just don't foresee that happening anywhere else

or else we would have saw it again happen somewhere else. But it was a match made in heaven. You had us and the way we played our brand of basketball and him wanted to play that style of basketball. You have a face of a franchise and Steph Curry who's so secure in himself that he's not worried about another jugger not coming over and what that does to him or his legacy or how that, you know, makes him where his standing is in the franchise. And so all of those things coming together, I agree with you. Like, it was absolutely insane. Now, what I will say is definitely blue 3-1 lead.

No one likes to talk about me against a suspended game five where them boys was about to get a gentleman's suite. No one likes to talk about that, and it's okay. I'm cool with that. I don't mind. It's totally fine. But I am not one of those people who's on the bandwagon of like, Kevin didn't do nothing. Kevin doesn't deserve them rings.

Like, you don't win two finals MVPs if you don't deserve rings. That's just kind of a dumb thing to say, you know? Yeah, so I'm with you. I'm going to hit you with this, right? Because they always talk about the Lakers. and when they three-peated, but they never mentioned they got their phantom file

so that, that, gentlemen, they, absolutely. So, Detroit and Isaac and Thomas, we should have been the first one

to three-peed in our era. The other thing, I do want to, I do want to give Steve Kerr some credit, you know, because the, the brilliant mind and the way he's,

he molded and got all of you to trust and believe that this was a great way to play. You know, so all the things that you said, I do want to add Steve Kerr on top of that because coaching really does matter. And he was the best coach for all of you. 100%. Steve was great.

One more question before we get out of here because I could talk to you all day. I'm sitting here. I'm learning. And this is great. Just one last question. This guy was born in Saginaw, Michigan. Pops was from Saginaw, Michigan.

Obviously, he didn't grow up in Saginaw, but he got that Saginaw water somewhere in his veins. And so he is the way he is, I would like to think because he got that Saginaw blood in him. But Kenyon Martin, Sr., once took Carl Malone out of a game and said he did that, elbowed him, because he caused you 14 stitches. Have y'all ever talked about that moment?

So how did that make you feel? I called him up and said, thank you. And actually he gave me, you know, I'm on them, I'm on the supposedly hard guy. So I took 42 stitches in the head, not 14. Right. But, but the, and this is what I want to say to you, right? You never know who you're touching,

and you never know who that little kid is going to grow up to be. I had no idea that I had impacted Kenyon Martin, you know, NBA player final, you know, NBA final, you know, NBA final. I had no idea that I had impacted his life from Saginaw that way. I, I never met him. Didn't, didn't know it. And when I, when I, when I heard the story, right? You know, it's like right on, of course. I'm happy for that. But the fact that we in Michigan, to this day, I don't care young or old, if it's a fight or a get back, I'm down, right? I'm down. We're coming. And it's like when you got in your little dust up, I call Rich. I don't know if he said the first call, I was like, hey, man, tell Draymond, I'm here.

Absolutely. You need some of them here. I mean, that's the community in the state that in the bond of basketball that's been formed there. And, you know, it made me feel good that, you know, he got him back because I wanted to get him back, but, you know, I wasn't big enough to get him back. So I'm glad he got him back. Shout out to Kmart, man. Kmart had some great years in this league and was a dog. Shout out to it.

Hey, but, O.G, Zique, I appreciate you. man, thank you. You're always welcome here. You want to talk about something. You want to drop some more knowledge. The Draymond Green Show listeners and obviously myself can't thank you enough. We would love to have you any time you want to come. But also, I just thank you for what you've been to the state of Michigan. And the presence that you and Joe Dee and your guys bought to the state of Michigan as far as basketball goes, like I don't take that for granted. Being a kid that grew up watching that, you know, and for all that you've done for the game of basketball, being the legend that you are, the gyms you share as far as business.

Like, people don't, we didn't even get a chance to talk about all the things that you're doing in the business world. It's absolutely amazing. So from myself, but also other players, like, we thank you for being who you are, what you've meant to this league and what you continue to mean. Well, we love you, and we're very proud of you. And, you know, you keep doing your thing, brother. because you're changing the world

and you're inspiring a little kid somewhere that's never met you, but one day will tell a story about how Draymond Green inspired him. So keep doing your thing. Yes, sir, we'll do. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you.