The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Draymond Green Show - Shane Battier

Episode Date: February 15, 2024

Shane Battier joins the Draymond Green Show to discuss why he picked Duke over Michigan State, what it was like playing with Yao Ming, Tracy McGrady's hidden greatness, the LeBron James and Dwyane Wade 'Heatles', what made Kobe Bryant different from everyone else, being ahead of analytics in basketball, and more.  0:00 Start 4:00 Izzo stories 13:00 Yao Ming 19:00 Tracy McGrady 27:00 LeBron James 31:00 Kobe Bryant 43:00 Analytics Produced by: Jackson Safon #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Golden Nugget Lake Charles, 21 plus age varies by jurisdiction, void in Ontario. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. See sportsbook.draft kings.com slash basketball terms for eligibility and deposit restrictions, terms and responsible gaming resources. What's up everybody? Welcome back to the Draymond Green Show. This next guest, I am extremely honored to have on the show. I play AAU growing up with the family, and we would practice, well, before I played with the family, I played with the Michigan Mustangs, but then I played with the family,

and we would practice at Detroit Country Day. And this guy right here is one of two guys who I'll say built Detroit Country Days, Jim. That's Chris Weber is the other guy, and this next guest that we have on, Shane Battier, who's an NCAA champion, two-time NBA champion, the six-pick in the NBA drive,

two-time all-being, all-NBA, defensive second team. NCAA final four most outstanding player, Shane Badié, welcome to the show, my friend. Hey, my brother, I appreciate you. Thanks for having me on.

You know, the resume, you know, I tell my kids now, I used to be somebody, so when I hear my resume, it makes me feel good because my kids don't believe I used to be pretty good. You know what's funny?

Oddly enough, I have a seven-year-old son and he likes to race me. He tells me, like, you're old, you're slow, daddy, you're slow. And I'm like, dude, I'm still out there running up or down the course. So I can only imagine what you have to do with. Oh, my gosh.

I coach high school basketball. My son is a sophomore. He's 15 years old. And, you know, I had to, you know, grab these kids by the collar a couple times this year and say, just trust me. If it worked against cold, it's going to work for you, all right? Just trust me. Just trust me on this.

Absolutely. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. But, I mean, just going back to you. high school, obviously just mentioned Detroit Country Day. What was that experience like for you going to Country Day? I know I read some stuff in the book, which we'll get into, but just like share that experience with me. I have actually one of my best friends in the world, Benny Fowler went to Detroit Country Day, grew up going over to Dumas House, and, you know,

they all went to Country Day. Just share that experience with me for starters. Yeah, well, it's funny. You know, I grew up in Birmingham, suburb of Detroit, and I had never heard of Chris Weber when I was growing up. You know, even though he went school 15 minutes away, and I love, you know, I love basketball, obviously. And it wasn't until he went to Michigan. And I was in seventh grade, my first year of Country Day, that I knew about Chris Weber, which is kind of weird.

And the only reason I went to Country Day, it was a great academic school, obviously. My mom said, no, you want to go to Country Day? And I didn't know what Country Day was. I was just was a kid who, like, playing sports. And she's like, it's that school that has a really good football stadium I'm right there on 13-mile road. I'm like, oh, really?

Yeah. You know, that's back when I played football. So that's why I went to Country Day. But it was, you know, it was a great place for me because, you know, even though I was from Birmingham, you know, I cut my teeth on Detroit Police Athletic League, you know, my childhood, whether it's grown up with my little brother or Birmingham Little League, it was all based on competition. And what Country Day for me was, you were, whether it was in the classroom or on the court, is people wanted to win, right?

And so we had a lot of success. We had, we won three state championships, you know, only lost about, I don't know, seven or eight times. We had, you know, seven, eight guys who played in college, guys who played in the NFL, and everywhere that you look at someone who wanted to do big things. And so, like, for me, like people always thought a country day was, you know, you know, prepping kids from the suburbs of Detroit, but like, people just wanted competitive and wanted to do big things. And so for me, like, that was the most.

The most important thing. You know, I got to play with both Chris Weber's little brothers, Jason and David, and, you know, two of my favorite people, teammates, they were unbelievable. And, you know, those battles we had at Country Day, I mean, they were some of the toughest practice I ever had throughout my entire basketball career. Absolutely. That's incredible. So tell me this.

I'd be remiss if I didn't ask this question because my heart bleeds green. Why do, by the way, at a time where Matine Cleese is at Michigan State, Morris Peterson's at Michigan State, Charlie Bell's at Michigan State. Why do go for Michigan State? I can guess the academics, but I'm sure it runs deeper. True. No, true story. And I love his is.

And I tell this. I tell us to his face. He messed up. You know, I've been recruited by everybody. And is, it just got the job at Michigan State. And I liked Is. You know, I'm like, man, this guy is, he's legit. He's got it.

But it is messed up. One day it came to me and said, Shane, and you know this, he said, we had the best weight. staff in the big 10. Okay, we're going to put 40 pounds of muscle on you, and you're going to be the baddest power for the big 10. And then I got Dean Smith and Coach K say, no, man, like you're a small four, man. You got to shoot threes.

I'm like, I'm with those guys. So that was the reason why. That was like the main, I didn't want to be power forward. I didn't want to, you know, put 40 pounds and bang guys. I wanted to be a small forward and shoot threes. So that's, that's why I went south. That is true story. That is so interesting to me because I came into college as a power for, right?

And now I'm looking at all of these things like, wait, this guy's too small to be a power for. He needs to be a small four. So ironically, I start at the small four position and where do we play? We're playing at Cameron Indoor. We're playing against Kyrie Irvin. That's one of the six games Kyrie Irving had. He had 31 points. And I caught myself going out there playing three that year, my junior year.

And I told Coach Zoh, after that game, I say, hey, coach, you know, I think I'm going to just move back to the four, man. This three spot ain't working for me. You got to chase these little guards off screens, off pinned down. Like, I'm not, I'm going to just go back to the four. So I was actually the total opposite, but I thought I wanted to be a three. That's funny. Well, it's funny. I mean, obviously, like, I think you and I are two originators of small ball four.

I mean, I mean, it's whether you came first or I can't say, well, whatever. whatever. We were the first, like, small forwards became power forwards. And now the game is obviously so changed and its positionless. But like the ability to guard a four and no matter how small you are, that that's the skeleton key, man. I mean, obviously you're one of the greatest defenders of the NBA history. And you can go, you guard it one through five. Literally, they say like one through five, but you could guard one through five. But like what your special skill was was you're able to. to get up and use leverage, you know, against seven footers who are waiting about 40 pounds. And it's not about strength.

It's just about like knowing how to use your body, knowing about angles, knowing leverage. And like, you know, I look back in my high school days. I was back to the basket five, but I learned how to do that. And so when I transitioned to be a small four in the league and a two guard for majority of my career, I never lost that. And like that was, that's the skill to unlocks everything. So for these young guys, you know, they want to step out, shoot threes and turn. a face, but it's like, yo, if you want to play and, like, be super valuable to your team,

like, learn to guard the posts. Learn to guard pick and roll. Because, like, you'll always play. You'll always play. And that's like, no one ever talks about that. And so I'm glad I'm here talking to you. You're like the one guy in the entire history of the NBA who gets what I'm saying. Am I right?

At 1,000 percent. It's crazy because you'll see young guys now. And to your point, they don't have a clue of how to guard the post. And Harris, to take it even a step further, people stop teaching post defense because guys start posting up. Well, now the game is changing back and you're starting to get guys posting up again. And no one knows how to play post defense anymore. And especially when you get guys coming from college, you know, the first thing these guys come from college they do, they put their chest out. And I'm like, yo, you cannot guard the post with your chest in the NBA.

Guys hitting your chest, they're spinning off you. You just can't guard that way. And so it's interesting that you say that because I think the key actually to my career and to your point, the key to my career was that my whole life, I was the biggest guy in Saginaw. So my uncle had me dribbling the basketball. Coach Speedy told me like, man, you can't just be a five, but my whole life I would play the five. Now, I played a point guard offensively and post up some and bring the ball up the court, make plays. But I played the five. And so once the NBA turned a small ball, you'd see teams like, oh, that guy is 6, 6, 6, 7, 2.

We'll put him at the 5. But my whole life, I learned how to anchor a defense because I played the 5, you know. And so to your point, I think that's a great thing for young guys to learn. Yeah. How to guard the post and how to guard picking roles. Yeah. I mean, we play for two of the best, you know, college coaches of all time. And Coach Isso and Coach K too, that that didn't hurt.

But the ability to garb, you know, pick and roll, be able to switch off on pick and roll, you know, to do every single coverage, you know, like you just don't see guys who are that defensively just, you know, versatile and have the IQ to be able to do all that thing in every situation. It's a huge, huge, huge advantage for these young guys if they get that teaching and that coaching. Man, you don't know how surreal this is for me right now. And growing up and just hearing your name and knowing you, it's just hearing your name and knowing you, from Michigan and to be doing this interview right now is blowing my mind. So thank you.

Before we move away from your early days, something and Michael Lewis wrote in 2009 article that the inner city kids who you play AAU with treated you like a suburban kid with a white game. And the suburban kids

who you play with during the regular season treated you like a visitor from the planet where they kept black people. how was that navigating for you the only child out of school with a black father and a white mother like how was that like we're now

20 years removed from that stuff has moved far ways in 20 years though how was that for you then having to deal with that you know Dre it was it was the hardest thing ever had to deal with as a kid but it was the best thing

ever happened to me right I never belonged anywhere ever ever you know i grew up in birmingham but we were we were poor i mean you know i still remember what a government cheese sandwich tastes like like i never had people you know from my school to my house because we had like holes in the in the roof when it when it rained i you know i was putting pots underneath the the uh the holes and like and so like sports was the one place and basketball especially that like i belong and i realized at a young age like look

when I win and I help my teammates and my friends win, like, they don't care that I'm, you know, half black. They don't, they don't care where I'm from. They just know, hey, you can play. And that's the beauty of sports. And so I became like obsessed with just winning. And it wasn't even about like what I did. I was like, what do I need to do to help my team, my friends win. And, and so that was my entire game from like, literally from my kindergarten all the way my last day in the NBA, it was just like, man, I got to, it's got to win. I just got to win. And so, you know, I had no one to talk to, you know, this is before the days, you know, mental health was even, was even invented, right? So no one's talking about like the anxiety or depression back in

the 80s, you know, you just kind of sucked it up. And, and my parents can understand, my friends couldn't understand that it's felt like alone and isolated. But the one place I made people respecting me on the basketball court. And so that was the most important lesson. I learned this lesson when I was like in first, second grade that I carried with me throughout my career. And it's always about winning, man. That's all the matters.

If you win, doesn't matter who you are. And so that was the hallmark of my entire career. So it was the hardest thing I ever had to deal with as a kid. But it was for me, me, who I am today still. Winning cure is all. It does. I want to get into an early point. part of your career. I know everyone talks about the Miami Heat Days and rightfully so. That's where you

won the championship. And that's always going to be the most respected and we'll get into that. But I want to talk about something in your career that I thought had a huge impact on your career and I just want to know your take on it. Playing with Yao Ming in Houston. You end up with seven or eight signature shoes with a Chinese shoe comes. One of the first guys to sign over with the Chinese shoe company. How was that playing with y'all and what impact did it have on you outside of the game of basketball? Because his brand was so big and reached so far. Yeah, man.

First of all, y'all, y'all was one of the best teammates of all time. And, you know, you talk about a guy who worked, who cared, who brought it every single day, never made excuses. I mean, it was a superstar. I mean, he's every, every teammate. dream, every coach's dream. You know, you saw how much stress he put on himself to carry really, like, you know, two billion hopes and dreams of his countrymen in China on his shoulders. And he did it with amazing grace. And even though he could never really stay healthy enough to sustain a long career, I mean, man, he was he was so good as a teammate, you know. Like Yao could never really train in

the summer. So he was always kind of like out of shape when he showed up the camp. But by, by He finally got in shape. And for like two months, man, like, I'm telling you, like Prime Shack, like, Dwight Howard, Young, they couldn't do anything with him. I mean, he was like the best player in the planet. And then he got tired after about that two month run and it was fatigued and wasn't as good. But like for that two months, like no one could do anything with him. So first of all, he was an amazing teammate, amazing human being. I love him.

Secondly, he brought me to a place in the world that I never thought I would, I'd be. You know, every kid dreams about having their own shoe. and when I signed with Houston, Pete came to me and said, hey, we want you to be there, our international spokesperson. I never heard of Pete, all right? So I'm like, all right, like, they're paying American dollars. It's the time when, like, Nike Adidas, they weren't paying anything. So I'm like, all right, yeah, cool.

So for 10 years, I went to China every year and tour the country. And I've seen every part of China and really learned to, you know, love just the people of China. because they just, they love hoops, man, they love hoops, they're knowledgeable, they love family, love education, all things that, you know, I was about. And so, you know, I've done everything. And like, I'm way more famous in China to this day than I am in America, not even close. Like, I hosted the, the Chinese version of Saturday Night Live. And I don't speak Chinese at all. Yeah, I hosted it. Like something like 150 million people every week in watch a show. I hosted it. I was on Chinese Oprah. I have my own.

commercials. I have like a hundred foot billboards. There's a statue somewhere of me in Beijing. I couldn't even tell you where it is. And so like the things I saw in China, it was it was nuts, but it was a great experience for 10 years and I have you out of thanks. Do you ever go back there now and do

some things there now or have you not been back? I haven't been back since COVID. When I go back, you know, when you go to China, everyone has a nickname. And at the time, you know, President Obama was the president. And because the way I talk and I'm white-skinned.

My nickname was Mr. President. And so every city I go to have a press conference, and people would be like, Mr. President, Mr. President, you know, how do you find Shanghai? And I'd always say, you know, it has the best beer and the best-looking women. You know, then I go to Ching-Tao. Mr. President, how do you find Ching-Tao? You know, it's got the best beer and, you know, the best-looking women.

And so I laugh. So I still walk down the street sometimes and someone from China will say, hey, Mr. President, I'm fans of you. So I look forward to going back. someday. That's incredible. And speaking to y'all, you also, obviously, T-MAC was a part of those teams as well. We had T-MAC actually on the show last year, and we spoke about winning and health and the different things. What was that like during those years of where you guys couldn't quite get over the hump of getting out of the first round and the beating that you were watching

T-Mack take due to that? All of you guys had to deal with that. What was that like? Yeah, that was the hardest part. That was probably the worst part of my NBA career, just not being able to have a real NBA championship run. We had the talent, you know, it's never seemed like we had the right health.

And my first year in Houston, you know, I'll never forget losing game seven at home. It's hard, you know. I'd never been to that situation where I thought we're going to win and we're up, you know, four or five points with two minutes going to lose the game to Utah. that was a really good Utah team with booze and and DeWill and O'Kour. But they're,

but to lose game seven to home, man, that really stung. And like you always like, assume they're like, oh, man, we're going to get back. And we just never did. We just, we never did. And one year, T-Mack was hurt and we actually beat Portland. And then lost in the second round. But, you know, it was tough.

T-Mack was unbelievable, man. I mean, he was so talented. And again, he had some injuries, so he wasn't as explosive as he was earlier in his career. But I'll tell you what about TMAC. He's the best passer ever played with. I mean, really? Yeah, like, people don't give him credit for his passing.

He was an amazing score and he was explosive and all that. But, man, he was like, he always put it, you know, on time, on target. You know, I used to yell at LeBron and D. Wade. And I'm like, dude, like, you want assist? Hit me in the chest. And maybe throwing it at my ankles or my T-Mack never. miss the past. Never. And so,

wow. Yeah, that's the one part of Team Mac that I always say, like, you have to give him his flowers. He's one of the best passers of our generation. Wow, that's interesting. To play with LeBron James, I would have never guessed that. I would have never guessed that.

LeBron used to throw the ball to my ankles and, you know, take me off my shot. Like, LeBron, you bought triple doubles, hit me in the chest. I'll make a shot. I can't, I can't promise you if you hit me over here. So he got better. He got better.

way in LeBron. That's like, that's the thing that drove me crazy about them. It was great as they were. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. That leads us, that leads us into our next topic. You joined the Heat. LeBron's second year there, which they were coming off of finals loss.

What was the energy like going in there with, you know, the Hedos team who was expected to be everything and now they just lost in the finals to a Daleks Maverick team who they were way more talented than expected to kind of. run through run the first two games and then lose four in a row. What was the energy like, what you're going in there after that? Well, first of all, Drey, like, I was like everybody else. When the big three came together, I was rolling my eyes, been like, oh, come on, man. Like, really, really, you know?

And so, like, I was playing in Houston, then I got traded to Memphis, and I was like, come on, man. It's like, just calm down. Like, you know. So I was, I was like everybody else. But as soon as they lost to Dallas, I was my first time I was ever a free agent in my career and I'm like, huh, I have never won a championship. They're going to win a championship. I should go to Miami. And that was my thinking. And so when I got there, and I was always like,

I'm not a Miami guy. Like, that's not who I am. I'm from, you know, Midwest. I'm from Detroit. And, you know, the thing that struck me about that team was I think they learned a lot and they really got humbled by Dallas. And the edge that that team had, going back the next year. I've never seen a team like that. I'll never forget, ring night. It was after the lockout. So first game, Christmas night in Dallas, ring night.

And like those guys didn't want to see Dallas get the rings. We're back in the tunnel back there in Dallas. And you could just see them. Everyone was just so angry. And like the edge, you could feel just like, oh, man, I look around. I'm like, oh, man, we win in this. We are winning this. And we came out and we beat Dow's pretty good.

And, you know, that night, you know, I got the plane. I'm like, oh, we're winning. We're winning. But like that, like that team was so talented. They learned the lesson. Like, you know, I mean, to be a champion, you have to go through the fires. And you got to get, you know, kicked in the face. You got to get up and you got to learn to understand, okay, to be a champion.

Like, this is what it takes. It ain't just about talent. It's about here. And so, like, I think I was. additive to that, but that team was so talented, but the hunger and the edge that team had was something I had never experienced. We've all had a frustrating experience buying tickets, even me. You all know I love to go to concert, shows, and it can be hard to find last minute tickets.

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Plus, the Game Time guarantee means you'll always get the best price. Take the guesswork out of buying tickets with Game Time. Download the GameTime app, create an account, and use the code word green for $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply. Create an account and use the code word green, G-R-E-E-N for $20 off. Download GameTime today, last minute tickets, lowest price, guaranteed. One thing that I thought was big and what it looked like, and Harris without my question would be to you, is it seemed like, one thing that really got that team over the hump

and allowed that team to take off was it seemed as if D. Wade kind of took a back seat. Like, Brian, listen, it's your show you go out second fiddle in a sense not, you know, people use it negatively. And if you want to win championship, your second option is just as important

as your first option. Yeah, yeah. But it seemed like D. Wade kind of took a backseat and let Brian go. Was that something that y'all discussed? Was it just, like, Like, it just kind of come out. You know, I think if you saw that team the year before and they lost to Dallas, there

wasn't good flow. And it was almost like they were afraid to stop on each other's toes, right? So it was like D. Wade's turn. Then it was LeB.'s turn. And it was C.B.'s turn. And so, like, from a basketball standpoint, it just seemed like they were always, like, fighting against each other, right? So I think they came back to the next year.

And, like, D. Wade is like, he's one of the most, you know, he's so cool, man. And like, he's got all the confidence in the world where, like, he knows, like, what everyone's saying on the outside, but he had the confidence to say, you know, dude, I'm a Hall of Fame player. I'm, you know, a top three or four shooting guard of all time. Like, I'm going to get mine. I'm going to be fine, right? And so I don't think he stepped back, but I don't think he was concerned about, like, whose team was it? And that's the hardest thing. I mean, you know, playing with Clay and with Steph and Hall of.

famers like at that level i mean you know you guys are all hall of famers they ain't about like one guy right and and it's just like yeah like i'm a dude and yeah at the end of the day i'm gonna i'm gonna do what i'm gonna do and so that was that was what de weighed and with cbm and what brown did and just i think that confidence in losing the dows allowed them to be the best versions of themselves let me tell you like you know those guys were motherfuckers you know at different times in the year like motherfuckers. And their greatness was unleashed because they just

to say, you know what, I'm a dude, I'm not going to worry about anything else. Right? Absolutely. Is that what your experience was? 100%. It's funny because I actually use this analogy. Like, one of the keys,

one of the main keys to our championship is this. A Maverick. Maverick will use this example. Maverick Carter. Maverick will say, I'm really tight with Mav. And Mav will say, man, I have a lot of respect for Clay. And this is when we're going through the runs. He said, I have a lot of respect for Clay.

I'm like, man, tough as nails, right. Like he's shoot the lights out of the ball. And Mav's like, yeah, but no. The reason I have a ton of respect for Clay is he said, because every night, every night, two guys walk into the bar. And it's Steph, it's Clay Thompson. and every night Steph say, all right, there you see them two girls,

I'm taking the pretty girl, and you got to take the ugly girl. He said, and every night, Clay say, all right, I'll take the ugly girl, let's go, and take one for the team. He's like, because as greatest shooter as Clay is, he's going to guard the best player, and yet he's never going to get the credit that Steph was.

Not one time did he ever complain about it. Not one time did he ever feel like, ah, man, I need to be this, or I need to do that. Always confident in himself, always comfortable in his own skin, didn't care what anybody else had to say. And to me, that set a tone for the team. Because you're the second best player on the team.

You're the second option. And you take that approach every single night. How can anyone else take a different approach? You know? And I think that was, to your point, that was huge for us. Like, just Clay's demeanor and willing to, like, talked about it with Chris Paul. Clay going to guard Chris Paul and Clay going to guard Kyrie Irvin and like all these guards,

he could be like, no, I don't want to guard those guys. That stuff was. Now, every single night he did that and it made such a difference in our team. It was for the better. I tell young guys all the time, I say, look, no one has ever asked me how many points, you know, did you score in your career? Couldn't tell you. Like, you know, how many points you have in the finals game seven, Shane, you know,

no one's ever asked me that. I get two questions about my career. They say, where do you keep your rings and how do you decide which one you want to wear that day? Right? And so like, when you win, they don't care about your stats. They just care that you were part of that team and they care that you were, you're a champion. And that's forever.

Like what you did in that moment, you may have hit a big shot, but like no one cares about your stats. And so you want to be remembered, win and be a part of it and be on the floor. And legacy, that's legacy. Legacy takes care of itself. It ain't about the stats of the numbers you put up. 100%. Have you played with a player as good or against a player as good as LeBron was?

Like that 20, really that 2011, 2012, 2012, 2013 season where he was really out of this world? He was, let me tell you what, man. For as good as you think he was, he was that much better. Look, you know, and I'm biased. I'm biased. I know this. People say LeBron or MJ, I said, you know what? LeBron did something twice that I don't think Michael Jordan could ever do once.

He won two NBA titles of Shane Badiye's starting power forward. All right. So that's it. That's, you know, I'm biased, but I don't think, you know, I love Mike. You know, we're the greatest of all time. But LeBron did it twice with me as his bum-ass power forward and dragged me across the finish line. That speaks to how great LeBron is. But, you know, look, the force, the intelligence, you know, he didn't have a weakness when he was in his prime.

He's still playing amazing now. But, I mean, just there was no answer. There was no answer for him. And he was like a queen on the chessboard and just do everything. And so it made my job certainly easier. but I love playing with him. He was, you know, as great as a player was, even better teammate. And he cared about his teammates.

You know, we always got the newest beats by Dre and whatever LeBron got, we got, you know. So, like, he always took care of us. You always came to my charity functions, you know, South Beach Battyoki for Betty, a take charge foundation. You always grabbed the mic. He always sang, you know, stuff like that matters to a teammate. And so I will always, you know, I'll always stand for, for Bron, that's my guy. There was a young guy in the 2012-2013 season

that hit his first game winner. You guys walk off in Miami. Yep. I felt really good about that. I remember that. I messed up that coverage. It still haunts me. I always pride of myself on always thinking and doing the right thing.

And it was a switch. I was guarding you, actually. And Steph was coming off a screen. and I prematurely switched off, and I should know. I stayed home, and you slipped and finished, and D-Wa just looked at me like, what are you doing? And I was so, Mal, I was so hot. I'll never forget that as long as I live.

That's the only time I think I messed up at the end of the game when it would matter defensively in my entire career, and it still haunts me to this day. Ironically, ironically enough, though, ironically enough, I don't think I would have gotten open on the slip if anyone else was guarded. me.

Because you're so ahead of the play, right? You're like, oh, I know Steph is coming off. And the reality is it should just be a simple red. I know. Someone else would have messed the red up and Steph would have came off open. And you're so ahead of the play. So it actually worked at my benefit that you were on me. And it was so forced.

Still remember that. Still remember that. That was a highlight for me, by the way. When I hit the lay up, I was telling myself like, ooh, I'm about to walk off, man. around with my hands up. Such a great moment for me. But,

but, you know, and just speaking on, playing with LeBron and you were called a Kobe Stopper and you've talked about being stuck on Kobe Island before. Don't start that, man. I don't need that on my Instagram feed, man.

Don't start that talk. But what what do you think What do you think differentiated Kobe from everyone else? Like there were obviously other tough covers. Paul Pierce was a tough cover.

Before you play with D-Way, D-Way was a tough cover. Before you play with Brian Brown was a tough cover. What made Kobe so much tougher to cover than all those other guys? You know, and I did not like Kobe. We were frenemies. We had this weird passive-aggressive relationship.

I never spoke to him. outside of the gym, but there was no one I respected more for his, for his mind. Look, this guy was relentless, relentless, you know, and I, you know, people ask me like, what do you miss about playing? And I said, you know, getting in the bus and having those butterflies in my stomach going to Staples Center being like, man, this guy's, this guy's going to try to to score 60 on me tonight. He's going to try to embarrass me tonight, you know? And so like, I always had to be my best, always. And if he scored, 20, he won a 30. If he scored 30, he won a 40. He scored 40, you want a 50. Even if 50, he wanted 60,

I mean, like, he was relentless. And so there was never a player that I ever took a play off, you know, and I got like, I wasn't fast, but like, you know, I knew how to play everybody. And I, I knew when I could sort of like sluff off and, and, and take shortcuts. You couldn't do that against Kobe because he was so relentless. And so we had this really weird game that we played. like some days he'd come out and be all buddy buddy, hey Shane, how you doing, man? What's going on? The next day he wouldn't even look at me.

And the next time he'd be like, oh, man, what's going on? And so, like, he was always like ice and fire with me, just trying to throw me off. And I had the same mentality. I never looked him in the eye. You know, I just was just, I never said, I can't guard Kobe. He's so much better than me.

And so in Mamba mentality, he wrote about this. And I didn't read about this, for his passing. and his passing really affected me. So I always thought I had this time to have this conversation with him. So when he passed, it really, really affected me. And I read his page of Mamba mentality

where he said, you know, talking about guys that were Kobe stoppers. And he said, you know, Shane, you know, Shane never talked trash to me because he knew that it fire me up. And he never admitted that like he could guard me. He's like, but I saw that as false humility and I attacked him because of it.

but but I still respected Shane. I'm like, he's right. He's 100% right. So like he knew me without really even knowing me. And that was special about our relationship. And, you know, we never spoke outside the basketball court. I didn't know him. He didn't know me, but like we knew each other.

And it had this weird, like, dynamic on the court. And so for me, he, he was the pinnacle of competition, the pinnacle of excellence. And he always brought the best out of me. And that's why I love them. Absolutely. Which brings me to my next question. I'll be remiss if I didn't ask this because it's something that really gets under my skin. And you just mentioned it.

Everyone nowadays, people have a good game and they're like, yeah, I channeled the Mamba mentality. And I'm just like, you know, stop it. Like, don't do that. Like, that's not okay. And by the way, if Kobe was still alive, I don't think, y'allel. I don't think y'all would be saying that because Kobe will call you out and tell you that's actually not it. But like, what do you make of all of these people going on TV? Like, yeah, I got the Mamba mentality I'm doing this.

Like, what do you make of that? Well, look, you know, Kobe inspired a generation. So all these young guys that came up, they grew up on watching Kobe, you know, him hitting those jumpers and making big shots. And so to them, like, that's their dream. Like, you know, you and I watched, you know, the Pistons and Isaiah and Jodee. and, you know, all these guys, the bad boys. That's what inspired us.

All those guys are inspired by Kobe. And so, you know, in this Instagram world, you know, you think you know somebody just by watching them and all, yeah, I'm going to be that guy. But like, there's only one code, you know. And there's only only one person that puts in the work and understands the sacrifice, understands the discipline, understands, you know, every single night would it take. right and to me that's what mama mentality is it's this is a relentless pursuit of of excellence and it's not about like you know having a big game it's about like this is this is why I'm every single

time I step out on the court and it's the hardest thing it's hardest thing in life hardest thing in basketball to be that dude every single time you lace them up right and so you know it's I think it's cute that these guys are paying homage to Kobe but But, man, do it for as long as he did it at that level for as long as he did it. And then maybe we can talk. See, and you said that better than I could ever say it. Because you know what I say? I can hate that shit.

I hate when people say that. But you said you put that better than I've ever heard it. It's about that pursuit of excellence every single night. Because people don't understand that. Like when you got to do it night in and night out, these young guys come in the league. And they're like, I want his spot. I want that thing. I want this money, that contract.

Yep. And when you have to do that every single night, on a soft Monday in, you know, who got the worst record, Detroit got the worst record in the league right now, on a soft Monday, soft Tuesday, you're rolling into Detroit. It's too below outside. And you got to go do that. You know, like, yeah.

Then where's that Mamba mentality then? So I definitely can appreciate that. Throughout your career, and guard and Kobe, you guard it, and I think we all can agree. There were different versions of Kobe, right? Like, you had 24, you had 8, you had Kobe that, you know, people never really talk about it, but you did have Kobe that sometimes would come out and, like, I'm getting my teammates involved and make a concerted effort to, like, get everybody involved and get double-ges

assist, and you got Kobe that's come out to your point and it's like, no, I'm going for 60 tonight. What were the different versions of Kobe? What was the toughest one for you to guard? Well, look, you know, I came in the league when the Lakers, you know, we're doing it. That's when they had their dynasty. And it was a different game, all right? And, dude, like, people know how dominant Shaq was, but, like, when Shaq was in prime shack,

there was no one who could stop them in, like, in the entire world, right? Circular 2002, 2003, right? So every game plan on the Lakers had, it was, like, how do you stop Shaq? You know, and like, we're doing X, X, Y, Z traps. Like, no one even knows what that is anymore, right? We're going on the catch. We're going on the dribble. We're full rotating, right?

Like, they've, no one does that anymore. But that was the late game planning and Shaq. And so, like, for Kobe, it was just like, hey, man, we got to worry about Shaq. Like, you're on your own with Kobe. So Kobe was like this dude just, like, ran around and didn't get any help because the entire game plan was, was there to stop Shaq. And, and so, you know, when Shaq leaves, goes to Miami, you know, that was kind of Kobe's time to say, look, like, this is my team. And I'm going to show everybody that, you know, I made this go, not shit like, right? And so like when he had Powell, you know, and buying them and those guys and L.O.

and those guys, I mean, he was a handful because not only was he like, you know, had that much more knowledge and he was in his physical peak, but like he had an edge that he's going to show everybody that like this is about the Lakers are my or my franchise, not Shax. Right. And so he just was a monster, just was a monster. And that was the toughest Kobe to guard because he was so hungry and he was playing for greatness, not just to win championship. At the end, you know, obviously, you know, he was still doing it, you know, and he was a handful. He didn't have the talent around him as much. So that was my favorite, Kobe. A little easier to guard, but still a monster, still a monster.

Absolutely. I saw that you said when you play against him, it was like the ultimate chess match. And for me, who liked to view myself a lot in your lane, you know, where I can think the game and I have to use my brain to get one step ahead, I may not be as fast as this guy or may not jump as high as this guy, but I'm going to play harder than you,

and I'm going to outthink you. And you speak about that being an ultimate chess game. Would you say Kobe was the guy throughout your career that that was like the one? There was no one else that you had to play chess with because for most people, I'm sure a lot like myself, you can out chest them no problem. Yeah, yeah. But then Kobe was that one like tough? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, look, I would put in terms of just mental guys who mentally that were just a monster to guard, you know, I put Manu in that category. right he was a monster just mentally dirk was was a monster uh you know paul pierce was you know you said earlier i mean he was a really tough cover for me man i i struggle guard and paul with paul was super crafty strong had it all um golly i chased around ai you know i i was like a monster when i when i was a rookie i played two guard i had to chase him around and he was like so smart because he was small, but, like, so fast. And, you know, so there was a select few guys that you just knew every night, they're like, man, you got to, like, you got to be here.

You got to be here. Yeah, it's hard work, but you got to be here every single play. And that was the fun part. You know, with Kobe, like, you know, as analytics came in the game and, like, I got to learn, you know, the weakness and strength with every single player. I would never say, like, I stopped these guys. But I understood, like, what really got me beat and what did. And that was the difference as you get older to understand the math behind basketball.

And so, like, I was willing, if Kobe wanted to hit, you know, 10, you know, future line jumpers against me, that was the best case scenario for me. And if he hit them, hey, tip your cap and move on. But if I put him with the line 15 times or if I let him get to the hole and make plays, like, that's on me. That's on me. So, like, you just learn with certain guys like, okay, look, I'm taking my medicine if he has jumpers.

Nothing you can do. he's that good. And once you do that enough and over the course of a season, over the course of a career, you know, that's how you stay away from like the huge, huge games game after game. These guys are going to bang you on the head every now and then,

but at least you get a fighting chance to help your team and keep those guys under control. 100%. It was almost like, you know, I know you said you try to make them take the tough long tools. You was on the analytics before. It's a real thing.

And now, you know, in transition into life after playing basketball, you've kind of gone in that direction. How would you say you were using that in a sense then but didn't quite know or were you already aware of it and was using it then? No, I got to learn that in Houston, you know, from Sam Hinky, Darryl Morey. And, you know, the way that they talked about analytics to me, which made sense. I like playing blackjack. And they're like, you've got to think about basketball like blackjack. When you get dealt, pocket aces, what do you do? You always split them, right?

10 times out of 10, why? Because that gives you the best chance to win that hand. Now, does that guarantee you you're going to win that hand? No, you know, you get bad cards, dealer hits 20, whatever. But like, it gives you the best chance, right? And so, like, there's everything in basketball is the same way. You say, give yourself or put yourself in a position to give yourself a chance of having success. Whether you have success or not, it doesn't matter.

You did what's right. you split the aces, right? You made them take long jumpers. And so, you know, I became so focused on process, so focused on what should have happened. And I didn't care about what did happen, actually. And that's like opposite of how we're taught to play sports, right? We're so judging the result.

And for me, it was judging the process. And did I get my, did I split the aces? Or did I hit on, you know, a soft 17, whatever? And so when you are so focused on process, it sets you free. It sets you free because you know you did the right thing. And if you do the right thing, enough, good things happen to you. And so that's how I was able to stay in the long, the league, as long as I didn't have success, even though I was slow, couldn't jump, and couldn't move.

So, and now knowing what analytics are today and your career did you have, were you born 10 years too early? because if you were born 10 years later, I can raise my hand, analytics is going to take you to an even further place. Because it's helped me a ton. Oh, man. Every night is not going to be the 20 points for me, right?

It's not every night it's not going to be 15 assists. But analytics actually allows you to see a different story. So I'm going to say thank you for that. Yeah, you're welcome. I'm always half of my brothers gets paid, all right? I know I'm not one of those bitter old guys and say, oh, man, you know, these guys are overpower.

Hey, it's a wonderful thing. It's a wonderful thing. But yes, I do wish sometimes I've played about 10 years later, you know, I probably would be a much bigger jerk now. I got to be a nice guy. I got to be a nice guy. Absolutely. You're the former VP of analytics and basketball development for the heat.

How do you feel the team changed? You know, the heat is an all. old culture. It's Pat Riley leading to charge and Eric Spaltrow, who's understudy for Pat Riley, dating back probably 30 plus years now. How do you think the team changed under your watching the analytical view that you brought to that team and working with that front office staff? Look, I like the heat, you know, because they've had 30 years of success, right? And what Pat's done, what Spoh's done, you just can't teach. Right. And so I, when I was hired to run analytics, I didn't go in there saying, oh, like, you got to, you got to listen to my numbers and, and, you know, you're doing it the wrong way. No, no, no. Like, I think that when you have data, it can always help kind of the eyeball test and, and add to the process. And so that's what I just try to do. I try to build a platform and a team that could just sort of support Pat Riley and Eric's Bolstra and just give them one more, you know, one

more tool to assess talent, put together a roster, play the game of basketball. And that's what analytics is. Like the best teams, they have the human element, they have the math element, and they combine the two, all right? It's not all analytics. It's not all I test. Just so you see this in business now, the companies that can marry data and people, that's who wins.

And that's just the era that we live in. Absolutely. Is your ultimate goal, you want to be a gym one day? coach, Gio? No, no. You know, I coach high school basketball this year, and, and coach my son is a pretty good ball player. And so we're actually transferring, we're moving to Charlotte. And I'm going to retire from coaching and just be a dad.

And so right now I'm an advisor for the Miami Heat, and that's probably the closest I'll ever get to the GMC. You know, I like Washington from afar. I'm doing a lot of consulting now. I'm in business. I run a foundation, I sit on some boards. So I've enjoyed transitioning to more of a business mindset and dealing with different problems. So I'll leave the basketball problems to my best friend, Mike Dunleavy.

By the way, Mike has been incredible, man. He has been absolutely amazing. I'm happy we have him. He's been incredible. I've known him for many, many years in my wedding, and we have weekly calls to break it all down. So he's going to win a championship as a GM sooner than later. Absolutely.

Did you come to that conclusion or, yeah, I mean, did you come to when you were the VP of analytics that you didn't want to be a GM or initially did you think you want to do that? I didn't know. I think in the back of my mind, I thought I could do the job. And, you know, I obviously know the game. And, you know, when I got in there, there's just so much in the world. You know, I mean, you're a successful investor and you meet so many different people,

it all walks of life. And so when you sort of get out of the game, you get exposed to so many things and so many really interesting people. And so I think that's what happened to me, just, you know, whether it's investing in a company or sitting on a board and being able to help people and help, you know, use the level. I learned from basketball and business, like, that was more excited to me than front of draft players. You know, that's just me. And so, you know, utilizing your brain in a different way, thinking about different problems, you know, that you never thought of before, helping people in ways

you never thought possible. Like, that's what excites me now. And I still love basketball. I'm still connected to it. But it's just fun to challenge yourself in a different way and grow in a different way and try to be a champion in a different way. Absolutely. What do you think, knowing what you know about this game, you've obviously had an up-close picture of it, out of Miami Heat, they go to the NBA finals, what, two of the last three years?

What do you think that team needs to do that really get over the hump? I felt like the last couple years they've been there, everybody's just like, all right, you know, they don't have a chance to win, and then they don't win. You know, like, what do you think the Heat team need to do to ultimately get over the hump in the finals?

just got to make shots, man. I hate to say. I was talking to a GM last year, and they said, you know, the heat had a great strategy last year. Miss all the three-pointers they took in the first half, but make them all in the second half. You know, that makes a big difference.

You know, look, it's to make-miss league. We know the heat, they're going to be, you know, well-coached. They're going to play their ass off. They're going to play great defense, right? They've got tough players. They got All-Star players. They got Hall of Fame players on their roster.

All right? So much of this league is, you make shots, you know, and especially, you know, three-point shots. And we haven't had the best shooting year this far. But if you get hot the right time like they have, last couple years in the playoffs, man, they're as good as anybody. So, you know, people ask me that question all the time. What do you have to do to win?

He's going to make shots, man. Yeah, absolutely. A couple more before we get out of here. I'll be remiss if I didn't actually. You mentioned them earlier about the legendary Coach K. Obviously, had the chance to play against him. I also had the chance to play for Coach K. For Team USA, we won an Olympic gold medal in 2016 in Rio.

Obviously, that's a whole, I'm sure, an entirely different Coach K than the Coach K that coach you, who's out front, very quiet, not, you know, calm. But from what I've heard from guys that play for Duke, you get behind them closed doors, and Coach K is, he'll rip. You talk to me about Coach K. You tell me your experience. You know, like your perception of, I play for him. So what was your perception going into Rio and the Olympic cycle versus what you think of him or how you know him now?

So my perception going into Rio was that like he was going to be super tough, like kind of all in your face. And he wasn't that. Like he was kind of more philosophical in a sense. Now, what I did love about Coach K. and what stood out to me more than anything was the pride he had for the shield, the USA shield, the pride that he took in that. Everything we did was about the USA shield.

You were playing offense for that shield. You're playing defense for that shield. The way you carry yourself is about that shield. And so just the man he was for me stood out more than anything. But like I said, I don't think he coached us as hard as I've seen him coach duke. Oh, by that point, I played in his first, his first international team, 2006 World Championships.

Now it's the only time he lost. We lost the Greece in the semifinals. And he learned a lot. He learned a lot. So I think, you know, Melo is the wrong word, but he learned how to deal with, you know, Hall of Fame players much better than maybe he did back in 2006. But, you know, what made Coach Kay, you know, my mind, the greatest coach of all time, is it was never about wins and losses.

Like you didn't talk about we have to win this game or we have to win this this quarter. It was always about standards, right? And this is the standards of Duke basketball. And this is what will, this is the only thing that we'll accept. You know, this is the standard of USA basketball. We're not going to accept anything less than this. And as long as we play to those standards, like wins takes care of themselves. And that was, you know, we won 131 games and lost 15 in my four years.

and we didn't talk about, hey, we have to win this game once. It was about we had to play to the standard of Duke basketball. And every person that came through the doors as a freshman, they learned, okay, this is what we expect to be. You know, I'm sure it's no different than Coach Izzo, you know, walking into the Brezlin Center, like this is who we are. And this is what we do is how we act. This is how we train. This is how we think. This is how we talk to each other.

And, you know, when you do that over a course of multiple recruits, you know, we do that over the course of multiple recruits, classes or years, that's the culture. And after a while, it's work to maintain that culture, but expectations, that's the most important thing. And so that's what I learned about Coach K. And it's always having a high standard for yourself, expecting the most out of yourself and being part of something larger than yourself is much more important than any individual contribution that you can give.

And after, I think 40 years, a couple years ago, Coach K step up. down and another one of your Duke brothers takes over John Shire, who's the head coach. What after, and I'll let you get out of here after this, but after coming behind a legendary coach like Coach K, arguably the greatest of all the time, but at least one off, what is success for John Shire at Duke? Like, King, Duke, is he expected to live up to what Coach K did? Is success one championship? Is it getting the final fours?

What is success for Duke after following a legendary coach that you all play for? Yeah. Look, John has done an amazing job. First of all, we talk about the Brotherhood Shield. We're proud of our school because it's about the standard of playing for something larger than yourself. And that, you know, yeah, we'd love to go to Final Fours and win championships. Absolutely. But if, again, if the process is right, if that,

It's not shortchanged and you do the right things. And you got to be a little bit lucky. If you do all these things, success follows. And it's not about doing it the right way or whatever. It's about doing it a hard way. It's about doing it consistently. And that is expectation as an alumnist and everybody who's come through that program that we expect John to do and what John has done to this point.

So we're behind Coach Shire. It's hard, man. It's hard to win with all these young guys. And you're trying to teach life lessons for kids who were there for a cup of coffee. And that's just the nature of college basketball now. But, you know, Coach Chire is going to win. We're behind them. I respect that.

Man, Shane, like I said before, this is an honor for me. Growing up in the state of Michigan, always hearing your name, always being able to turn on the television. And be like, man, that guy comes from here. He made it. We can make it one of the heroes for me. And so I can't thank you enough for coming on the show. We'll have you back anytime. But just thank you.

This has been a complete honor, a pleasure. I learned a ton. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you, Grandma. Thanks for representing the state of Michigan. And, you know, like I said, one of the all-time grades in the NBA, man. You make us proud.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you.