The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Duke's Louisville comeback; Zion/R.J. Barrett NBA projection; Anthony Davis trade fallout; Iowa HC Fran McCaffery

Episode Date: February 15, 2019

This week, Gottlieb looks at how Louisville helped make Duke's 20-point second half comeback win, why Zion is their unquestioned Alpha over R.J. Barrett, and looks at their strengths and weaknesses when they head to the league, He also looks at the fallout from the Anthony Davis trade deadline talks and talks with Iowa Coach Fran McCaffery on his career and his season to date. Subscribe here to the All Ball Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2.   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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And this week, our guest is Fran McCaffrey. Coach McCaffrey or Franny, as most of you know him, if you're in the basketball industry. Recruited me to go to Notre Dame. name. I know probably more about his story, about how he met his wife, Margaret, about his boys. Of course, everybody knows some of the stories of him bringing up two boys than maybe anybody in college basketball. He's a dear, dear friend. And I've told him before, and if you listen to this podcast, we talk about real things. I personally think I'm the reason that they got fired at Notre Dame, you know. When I was a freshman, we had another freshman.

high school senior, David Lalazarian, who I play with in high school, he was coming in the next year. He did play one year in Notre Dame for transferring to Pepperdine. We had Pat Garrity. I felt like we were, even though we struggled our first year in the Big East, we were close. And then, you know, when I get in trouble and leave and they give the scholarship to Jimmy Dillon, no disrespect to Jimmy Dillon, Admore White took over as point guard, set you back in terms of your plan.

More than anything, it didn't cast a great shadow on Notre Dame. so even though they got Todd Murphy and they were better, they weren't good enough to stay employed. And he ultimately left and got the UNC Greensboro job. But I think the world of him as a coach, as a person, and as a recruiter. And it's going to be great for you to hear me catching up with him. Some of the look back, some of the look at right now at his Iowa club, who just survived Northwestern at home in an unbelievable win.

I want to give you a couple of thoughts on Duke, who I saw in person, and a 23-point comeback on the road at Louisville. Actually, it's more kind of about Louisville. Louisville violated so many of the codes of ethics if you have a big lead in trying to close out a game. They're up 23, up 20, they're taking quick, long shots. That's a mistake. They missed three front ends of a one-in-one.

Oops. They turned the ball over and gave up layups against full court pressure. Can't do it. There was a lack of luck, two minutes to, go. Christian Cunningham got a defensive rebound when the ball hit off of Zion Williamson. Instead of dribbling up the sideline, he dribbled back where Williamson was laying and

slipped on a wet spot. Duke laid the ball in instead of having the ball up five and seemingly staving off the comeback, now a sudden's a three-point game and ultimately they end up losing. They fouled, which allowed Duke to score with the clock stopped. They gave up open three-point shots. You know, make teams take contest. at twos, make teams beat you with the clock running, make your free throws, especially front ends of one in ones.

You know, when Zion Williamson's in foul trouble out with four fouls and you're out of 23 point lead, take the ball to the rim, especially when he comes back in. They didn't do any of these things. And then Duke hits a bunch of shots. I'll give my thoughts in Zion in a second, but as much as Duke was outstanding in how they were flatliners, they didn't overreact to being down 23. if I had to say to Duke win or Louisville lost, Louisville lost because of those things.

You cannot miss front ends of one in one. You cannot give up layups, you know, pick six turnovers. And you cannot shoot quickly and try and go for dagger shots. Just take layups, easy open shots, drag out the shot clock, score at the end of shot clock, get to the foul line, stabilize your defense. They did none of this. All right, let me tell you about what I saw when I watched Zion Williamson in person.

So look, Zion is probably, I think he's measured out in bare feet below 6 foot 6, and that looked about how tall he was. And he's wide and he, once he kind of gets going, is crazy athletic. Laterally, pretty good as well, obviously vertically. He tries to block every shot, tries to run through every pass. Doesn't always have the best footwork in trying to run through passes in terms of using his top foot. Sometimes he gets lazy. Look, that's how Duke plays.

Duke's trying to steal every pass. and just overplay, overplay, overplay. And Louisville did a great job up until they pressed and zoned and choked. But I want to make sure that you don't in your mind mischaracterize him. He's not LeBron. He's not Ben Simmons. He's not a true ball handler, even though he can handle the ball. His skill defensively will be a more athletic version of Draymond Green in that he can

guard one through five. He can switch on the ball screens. He can guard Biggs. He's obviously a crazy weak side shot blocker with his jumping ability, long arms and timing. And he's big, strong, and he's pretty tough. And he competes. So I think he's a powerful word that becomes a small ball five.

And he can also bring the ball up the court. A lot like Draymond. Vertically, there's some Blake Griffin to him. There's a little bit of Lamar Odom to him, you know, as a, as kind of a stretch four with kind of a he doesn't have a hitch, it's just not a great looking shot from the perimeter, but that can be helped.

He's only taking one pull-up jump shot all year. Obviously, there's massive room for development in terms of his skill. He does go mostly left, and sometimes when he can't dunk, struggles finishing going to his right. Again, all can be worked on. But I think the big thing for Zion is,

last year when people saw him, they're like, not in great shape, doesn't always play hard, and how skilled is he. Now you see him and his skills improved. He's in better shape and he plays hard a good portion, if not most of the time. And if you watch Duke, he's really their leader. R.J. Barrett's their best player right now and the one guy who they play through more than anybody.

But they look, Zion brings their energy. Zion is a, what's it? Eric Mangini calls it, a force multiplier. He raises up the intensity of shoot-around, of warm-ups, and obviously of the games. And at the end of that game, he wanted to take over. Want to take over. So coming into the season, I thought RJ Barrett was without question the number one pick. RJ's shot does look a bit mechanical.

And if he doesn't have the ball in his hands, there's not a lot that he does offensively. Defensively, he's better than I thought in terms of being active, and he did compete. And I like Cam Reddish. And I think Cam's going to be a guy who plays in the NBA for 15 years and be a score. But I don't think it's close. I think you take Zion Williamson, number one, and you don't even look back. My concerns with R.J. Barrett, I talk with some NBA scouts, and I pose this to him, and a lot of them nod their heads. Not everybody agrees with it.

I think R.J. is really good. I think he's a winner. I think he's a competitor. And I do think he competes at the defensive end. But my question becomes, his jump shot is quite mechanical. and he's going to have to develop a lot more fluidity in it, considering how much he wants to dominate the basketball and how people are going to make him shoot.

But he's got the makings of what could be a great player. My question becomes, this is like the opposite of the Zion Williamson. His role with this team is a lot like his role with most any team he's played on in that he's the guy. He's the alpha. He's the ball handler. He's the shot maker. He's the creator.

He's everything. And if you can't make any shots, keep people honest in the NBA, to make them fight over the screen or to make them challenge you on jump shots and you're not good enough, then you don't get that role. And if you don't get that role, can he actually succeed? I don't have an answer for that. But I'm fascinated to learn it. Let me quickly turn to the NBA. Two things that I, one thing I know to be true and one thing that I believe to be true and it's backed up by Danny Hange. First, the thing I know to be true. There's been a lot of talk over the last week and a half or so leading up into the All-Star break over the Lakers and what happened with the New Orleans Pelicans.

But you're going to have to open up your mind to the understanding that the pelicans, who basically through Brian Winhorse, admitted they were tweaking the Lakers, tried to poison the well so badly. I was told that the proposed trades that have been out there where the Lakers were willing to give up, Zubotch, who's no longer there, 21 years old. Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma, Josh Hart, Lonzo Ball, and draft picks, and cap relief. We're not close to what the Lakers actually offered, which would make a lot more sense. Whether it was LeBron James' team hit in full panic mode thinking they might not get another player or the New Orleans Pelicans tweaking the Lakers by leaking that information to the media, I was told no such trade offer was ever made and that this was simply a case of the Pelicans

trying to poison the well. And I wonder, like, think about it, if you're the Knicks and you land Zion, are you really going to give up on Zion for Anthony Davis? It is New York City. It is about drawing a crowd, and I think you can win big with Zion. And whether you get Kemba Walker or you get Kyrie Irving

and you get Kevin. Last night, a blown call changed the game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines.

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Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Grant, like, aren't you going to want a guy who can guard multiple positions? I guess you get that with Anthony Davis, but you're going to have to pay Anthony Davis in his second year if he stays a ridiculous sum of money as opposed to Zion playing on a rookie deal. It's not a locked up since the Knicks have much to give in return, let alone the Knicks are going to want to trade that draft pick.

The same can be said for the Boston Celtics. The Celtics have the, well, does Anthony Davis really want to be here? They're going to try and re-sign Kyrie Irving. Harry Irving doesn't resign, why would they trade Jason Tatum? For Anthony Davis, it doesn't make any sense considering the construct of their lineup. So many things have to go right for the Pelicans to get a better offer than whatever the offer was for the Lakers. Meanwhile, the Lakers smartly pulled out. Now, did they pull out in time to save their season?

We'll find out after the All-Star break. Luke's going to remain as their coach. And before LeBron got hurt, they were top seven in all defensive categories. It's really important to note that like playing with LeBron and playing without LeBron are two completely different ways of playing basketball and it takes players a while to learn how to play with him. Then he goes out for 17 games, comes back for one,

sits another one, and you have to learn how to play without him after learning how to play with him. I think that's as much of the cause for the uneven season in L.A. As it is the fact that, you know, coaching or luck or some brain flatulence like that, of Contavius Caldwell Pope. Betrivers Sportsbook wants to invite you to discover the complete sports betting experience. The foundation of that experience is a massive number of betting options

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beneficial state bank member fdic 2021 terms and conditions apply visit aspiration dot com slash zero for more information let's catch up with coach mcalfrey and uh fredney i want to get to your playing career getting into coaching and what led you to ultimately leave sienna and go to iowa in a moment but kind of give me the state of the hawkeyes the last time we saw you you win on on an incredible shot by bohannon uh you guys won a couple in a row it feels like it feels like it feels like the team seems to have figured out who they are and what you want them to be. But again, these are outside perspectives. If you were going to give a state of the Hawkeyes address, how would it start?

Doug, I would tell you this. This team is a connected group. And you know what that means. You know, whether we're coming down in transition, whether we're running motion, we're running sets, you know, we're executing. We've got willing pastors. We've got willing screeners. defensively is where it really manifests itself.

And last year, I would tell you we were not a connected group defensively. Whether we were changing defenses or we stuck with one, you know, it always seemed like there was a breakdown somewhere. You know, we play hard for, you know, 22 seconds and give up an easy shot, you know, three seconds on a shot clock. We're rebounding better. But I think at the end of the day we're a little tougher than we were. And what was interesting was two years ago, a lot of the same core guys are with us,

and they were tougher then, but we had still like Peter Jock who led to league in scoring. So that was a big difference in that team versus a team from last year. So this team, I think, has a lot more weapons. So, for example, we survived about a three-and-a-half-a-four-week stretch without Garza. MVP of the 2K Classic in New York had a five-game stretch where he's averaging over. 20 and then gets in foul trouble against Indiana and doesn't score against Northwestern, yet we still win. You know, Cook, his numbers have been phenomenal, but we beat Indiana on the road.

I think he had seven or nine. We're still able to win. That wouldn't have happened a year ago. So there's various people that are stepping up. Isaiah Moss had a five-game stretch where he was absolutely phenomenal and then did score for two straight games. Well, then, okay, Bohanonan steps up, Joe Weeckham steps up, Connor McCaffrey steps up and so do Macy Daly.

So we just seem to have more guys ready to go and when we need them. And everybody supports each other. You can see that on the bench. The guys were out of the game with Bannon at that shot. There's actually a bunch I want to dig in on that. How did you kind of rebuild the culture to one of toughness, right? Because anybody who knows you and frankly knows Margaret, your wife, I mean, she was an incredibly tough basketball player.

She's a tough cookie. you've grown up in Philly, your entire coaching career, your team's kind of exuded toughness. But yeah, last year it wasn't there. I would offer up this. I think some of it's probably last year, and I want to know some of the things that you've done, and some of it's the personnel that you have and guys figuring out.

I also think that losing those two games early in the Big Ten, while coaches hate playing those early Big Ten games traditionally, I kind of felt like it helped you center your guys. And, you know, that early season success that you had, like, hey, look, that's not the Big Ten. Michigan State, when they hammered you guys, it seemed to help get some of your messages across. Give me the reality of how you're able to kind of reestablish your program as one

that does play defense, that does do the little things to win these games. Well, you're 100% right, Doug. I mean, if you're in this business, you're a competitive individual. And I've been at various places, both as an assistant as the head coach. and there's a level of toughness that's required. And I think a lot of times when you hear that word, you're thinking physical toughness. And you were a great example of that. Yeah, you were pretty tough guy.

But what you were was a guy who understood the game to a whole other level. And you knew what was necessary in this game. Okay, we're playing a team that is changing defenses. We're playing a team that's half-court man-to-man is going to be. Can we score and transition in this game? Do we have to execute our set plays in this game? Coming down the stretch, time and score, that's the toughness that we lacked. We weren't formed the level that was required in those situations

coming down the stretch in a five-point game. You know, you look at teams, Doug, and one team wins 20, another team loses 20. Well, one team's not great and the other team horrible. They're actually very close. but one team has the ability to win five-point games and the other team doesn't. So you have to, number one, have complete buy-in to, okay, we have to make change.

We have to make change collectively. We have to make change individually. And it can't be the head coach pointing at each guy and saying, okay, you have to change. No, no, no, we all have to change. Okay, we're all in this together. We win together, we lose together, and we figure it out together. So for me, it was challenge them, hold them accountable, but know that, you know, I have your back,

and we're going to get better, we're going to stay the course, and we're going to be better than we were last year. And you're right, Doug. I mean, I think you make a great point. We established ourselves in New York as a team that's clearly better than we were a year before. But how do you survive? You know, Cook didn't play two games, guards that didn't play four games. Bowhannon had a few off games earlier in the year. Well, Hannan is in foul trouble against Yukon.

You know, Connor plays great. Joe Weev camp came on the scene and clearly made a difference. Enabled Nicholas Bear to kind of be who he is and be that guy, one of the top six men in the country. So, you know, I think there's a lot of truth of what you said about those early Big Ten games. No, we don't like playing Big Ten games in early December. but the reality is 20 league games helps our conference get more teams in the NCAA tournament. So that's what we're going to do.

So rather than complain about it, you better have complete buy-in. And if you get your ears pinned back like we did against Michigan State, where do we go from here? We go a long way to go. One of the things that I think is we lost to Wisconsin at home, and again, we could have won. We lose the Michigan State on the road, and we lose to Purdue on the road. And then, you know, you turn on the radio, you turn on TV, and there's a lot of people panicking.

Oh, you can't start 0 and 3. Well, you know, you sort of can. You have 17 left in the league. Okay, so you can, and we had more games to play other than that. So you can get the ship turned around. But the important thing is to be honest with yourself in assessing what can you do differently and then what can we do differently. All right, now let's go back.

I remember, of the stories that I remember from people who coached me and you recruit me, me. My, like my favorite story is the two stories you told me about playing at Wake Forest for Kyle Tacey. The one is, uh, you guys had a rule, right? Where underneath out of bounds, you're in zone, sideline out of bounds, you're in man. My, my correct in the rule? You are correct. Okay. And you're playing at Cameron Indoor Stadium. This is, you're a, freshman starting at point guard in the ACC, right? And again, this, this is, tell me if my memory is correct, but the ball goes out of bounce. It's kind of an odd angle, but it was on the sideline, not on the baseline.

And so you're in man to man, and those other four idiots are in zone. And of course, they throw it in out of bounce play, throw it in for an elbow jump shot where had you been in a zone would have been where you were supposed to be as a six foot four inch skinny, 100, whatever pound soaking wet freshman out of Philadelphia. And so Kyle Tasey does what all old coaches do. He turns around and whips and throws another guy into the game. for you and takes you out and proceeds to berate you. Is that correct?

Correct. And instead of simply walking and sitting down on the bench, remind me, didn't you say, what exactly did you say to him? Well, what I said was, you know, he said, what are you doing? Don't you know we're supposed to be in zone? I said, coach, the ball went out of bounds on the side. We're supposed to be in man. and he looked at me and he looked

and so I should have done what you just said I should have walked to the end of the bench just sat down and he probably would have put me back in the game instead I said you should have left me in and taken those four guys out so that virtually assured

that I didn't get back in that game but I didn't because that's not the way you're supposed to talk to your coach but I was sort of baffled by I'm getting taken out because I'm right and

it was something that I always remember. I mean, you remember plays like that. It's the first time I ever played at Cameron. You know what it's like. You've been there. I've never been there. It's amazing.

I've never been. Well, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, well, I've been to a mall. I've been to Allen Fieldhouse. I've been to the Dean Dome. I mean, like I played in Carmichael Colesium. You know, I played in Cole Fieldhouse. I mean, you, you've done with places that, you know, I grew up in the Palestra. I mean, you name it, I've been to Pauley Pavilion.

There's no, there's no place I haven't been. That's as difficult to places to is. You know, they're really, they kept it small. I mean, it's impossible to get a ticket. The atmosphere is electric every night. And, you know, we had a chance to win the game. We didn't.

We beat them when they came to our place. But, you know, it's something that you remember because it's a coaching thing. If you're going to be a coach and you're going to take a kid out of the game and you're going to jump his case on national television, but you better be right. Now if you took a, if you hooked your son, if Connor, you hook your son and he comes out of the game and he mutters something to you, even if he's right, how would you react? One of the differences, Doug, in those days, you didn't say anything back. It's a different world.

I encourage dialogue. So I might think that you came down the floor and made it ridiculous. decision. Rather than jump you and say, Doug, what is wrong? What's going? What is wrong with you? I might say,

okay, Doug, what did you see? Okay, this is what I was thinking. Fran, hold on, hold on. Listen, I played for you.

Okay. And granted you were the, but, and I've seen you coach enough. I don't think you would have said, but it would have been, what the, what the fuck are you,

what are you, what are you, what are you, you, you know, I hit, my first start for Notre Dame, we're playing Baltimore, we're playing in Baltimore,

against the Loyola, Maryland. And what was the guy's name? He went on to coach at Michigan. He fell into the Michigan job. Brian Ellaby. Brian Ellaby. And Brian Ellaby was going to just press the whole game, right?

We're playing at the Baltimore Arena. Yes. I don't know, but still there. Yeah. So, and as you know, but I don't know people listen to podcasts now, like, I had my flaws as a basketball player, but you were not pressing me. That was just not happening, right? That was a layoff.

We would hope they would press us. Yes. I mean, that's the last. So we're playing pretty well. It's kind of a scattershot game. And early on in the second half, I'm feeling good about myself because, again, if I get it second pass against the press, it's over. And we're coming down on a three-on-one.

Pat Garrity's on my left and Ryan Hoover's on my right. And I had the ball on my left hand. And I cross over to my right hand and kind of throw a spinning behind the back pass, which is kind of like a signature one for me that I almost never airmail. And I was behind Pat because he has deceptive speed. a very, very deceptive speed. And it hits the, it hits the priest who was not paying attention. He was open, though.

He was open. He was open. And he was shot ready as well, which is the most impressive part. And I didn't even run up the court. I just, I did the, I did the, uh, shit. Here it comes. And I go over there. And you know, McLeod, he didn't really yell.

And he's just, he's apoplectic. He's beside himself. He can't. On the other hand, you stood up. What in the fuck are you, take that shit back to California was, I believe, was what was under. So, in other words, I understand that you encourage dialogue

now, but let's not kid ourselves. You're not saying, Connor, what did you see? It all depends. It all depends on a situation. Okay. Now, you and I have great memories. See, the interesting thing about that game, we had that game won. It started to fall apart.

Yep. Okay. And I am relying on our point card, dude, just get home. Okay? And I was stunned that you actually threw that pass in that situation. And I knew that I could challenge you in a way that was very direct because of the relationship that we had. And I will, you're right, I will do that at times, but it's got to be the appropriate time.

It can't be every time you turn the ball over, every time you miss a shot, every time you miss a guy who's open, you know, I'm going to question, why did you drive it? Why didn't you shoot? it. Why don't you pass it? What are you thinking? It's got to be you trusting your own judgment and your own talent to go make plays. But in that situation, I was perplexed that you made that play under those circumstances because it was so out of character for you. And I think at the end of the day, you were just trying to have some fun. Like, Coach, we got this. But it was like we were up 21 and all of a sudden we're up nine. And we need to finish this fast break to go back up 11 because we're on the road.

We've just got to get out of here with a W. We can't lose to Loyola. And you almost killed a priest. How, how, this is what's always, I've always wondered. I was terrible, as you know, my first couple weeks in practice. You know, I was just beside myself. I didn't understand why I was so bad. By the way, you weren't terrible.

You weren't as good as you should have been. but you weren't terrible. Two different things. I would just, I just felt like I was running. You were beneath your own standards is what you were. Well, but we were running, we're running like a true motion offense. Most of our,

most of our practice was in the half court, which takes away like 75% of my powers, right? And we're not, we're not running organized break. There's not, any screen roll was to my right hand and said to my left hand, which is where I like to go.

Like everything, like, I felt like I was, I was completely lost. Anyway, somehow I managed to sneak into games early in the game, and I'd like to think it wasn't just because I was promised, you know, I'd get an opportunity to start. How do you use, like, how do you know, and you've done this for a long time, some guys just are not going to look the same in a game as in practice. How do you know, how do you know who's going to be a game and who's going to be practice, who just looks good in practice? What's the, what's the secret to that? Well, there's a couple things. Number one, I knew you pretty well.

Okay, I watched you in AAU. I watched you for your high school team. I watched you grow up. I remember you were a little sophomore. Okay. So I kind of knew your backbone. All right? So typically you have an idea in your head,

this guy is going to be fine when the TV lights come on. Some guys can play at 3 o'clock and some guys can play at 7 o'clock. And some guys, you know, they just, the TV lights come on and are not the same person. You know, we've all seen them, we've all coached them. So the critical thing is to have an idea, number one, of what you think is going to happen. But then number two, be confident enough in who you recruited

to give them the opportunity to play when the TV lights come on. You know, have them sit there the whole year and don't give them a chance. Because they might surprise you. They might develop. You know, some guys take a little longer, like you said, okay, I was a little uncomfortable in the motion scheme. All right, well, that's a fairly legitimate, I would say excuse, but we've got to give you time.

Troy Murphy had the same problem, by the way. I remember him saying, like, he was like, what do I do now? What do I do now? What do I do now? And eventually, like we said, well, well, you could do this, but you could do that. You could do this. And a lot of guys don't like that. It's tell me where to go.

tell me where to line up. So finally, Troy, one day, he had like this light bulb go off moment. He turned to me and said, so basically what you mean is, just go score. Yeah, just go score. Now, maybe you screen and slip. Maybe you get a screen. Maybe a guy turns his head and you basket cut. But I want you to score.

We'll get people to screen for you. Now, a lot of times the screener is the guy who's more open. I mean, no better example than the play we ran to win the game against Northwest. trust her. Bohanen said a screen popped out. He's opening it's three. Okay? So, you know, we try to get Troy to understand, okay, you're going to do some screening

for yourself. But go get buckets. Where's the ball? Where's my man? Are they into gaps? Is the X on the O? And trust what your two eyeballs are seeing. And you had that ability.

He had that ability. Sometimes it takes a little longer. That's all. Okay. For people don't know, you got into coaching at, like, right out of school. You transferred a pen. Correct.

You were sitting out during the Final Four. Did you get to travel to Utah during the Final Four? I did, but not with the team. I traveled with, actually, my roommate at the time was Tommy Massimino, Raleigh Massimino's son, still great friends until this day. And what they did was they chartered a plane for the students. There was like 300 students, and we got on that plane. And so we were at the game, at both games,

in those days, even though we lost the Michigan State, they had a consolation game like DePaul. So I was out there and I was at the hotel, but I wasn't technically with the team and stuff like that. So it was a little bit different. But being associated with that team, Doug, was amazing for me because it was the epitome of what great culture is. We always talk about the culture in your program.

That team had winning culture. They had senior leadership. They had hard workers. They had unselfish players. We had a great coaching staff. Bob Weinhower is the head coach. Bob Stack was the assistant. Dennis Jackson, we had a great staff.

And for me to be associated with having transferred, you kind of go sign with an ACC school, things don't work out, you transfer, you're with a team that goes to final four. Okay, now I know how you have to act. how you have to prepare, how you have to compete, to be a winning team on a national level. It was very, very beneficial to me, clearly down the road even as a head coach.

You get down at Penn in, what was it, 82? Correct. You graduate from Penn. Why go into coaching? You know what happens, Doug, is you're involved with the game. I mean, I feel like you and I grew up similarly in the sense that, you know, your dad put a ball in your hand when you were a little baby, and that's what we did for, that's what we did for fun.

We played and we went to games. On Friday night, we went to high school games, the Saturday night, we went to college games. I mean, that's what we did. So all of a sudden, your career comes to his preaching hall, and I'm not going to play in the NBA. All right, well, you've got to make a decision. Do you want to go work on Wall Street? I mean, you know, do you want to go to graduate school? You want to go to law school?

I mean, where do you want to go with your life? I wasn't ready to walk away from the game. Now, sometimes you don't have an opportunity to stay in the game the way that you want to. But in those days, in the Ivy League, they had a third spot that was essentially a volunteer spot. So I got a part-time job on campus. We had a JV program. So I was the head coach of the JV program, but they don't even have anymore, which was great experience.

I was the third assistant on the varsity team, and Craig Littlepage was the head coach. and Tommy Schneider and Dennis Jackson still. No, Dennis was gone. But anyway, I learned a lot from Craig. So I played for, I learned some stuff from my experiences at Wake. Then I played for Coach Winehauer, go to the Final Four. We went to tournament a bunch of times after that. Now I'm working for Craig Little Page.

And everybody's different. And I think that's the value of, you know, you think about it. I'm still a relatively young guy. I'm a head coach on the JV so I can try. buy my own stuff, but I'm working with people that have great experience. I mean, you know, you look at Bob Weir, where he was on the Chuck Daly Tree, you know, coach a Dream Team one, Hall of Famer. And Craig Littlepage worked for Terry Holland, and he played for Dick Harder,

who was a great coach in his own right at Penn and Oregon and in the pros for all those years. So I'm being exposed to a lot of valuable ideas and information while at the same time being able to, make some of my own decisions. So I was really fortunate to have been exposed to all that at the young age. And then you were, I was like 26 years old? You became a head coach at Lehigh? Was that right? Correct.

You know, what happened was Tommy Schneider was our top assistant. He gets the Lehigh job. He gets to Lehigh job. I said, boy, that would be great. I'd love to. And I went up there because I was going to earn my master's degree. And it's funny because at the time, I made a very unique decision because my coach, Bob Weinhauer, took a lot of time.

the job at Arizona State. And his assistants were Doug Collins and Henry Bibby. And he called and said, you know, once you come out here and be our GA, essentially be my GA. So I chose to go to Lehigh rather than Arizona State. And the reason I did that was because I wanted to get a valuable I felt like if I was a GA at Arizona State at that time, I really wasn't going to be a student a way to be a full-time coach. And that would have been great, except I wanted to get a master's. I felt like if I make a decision to make a career change, I need to have an advanced degree.

Even though I had an undergraduate degree from the Wharton School, I wanted an advanced degree. And I wanted to have some flexibility because maybe I wanted to stay in athletics, go into administration, perhaps. So I earned a master's degree in education, focusing on higher ed. which was really valuable for me, having remained in higher education all these years. And then what happened was we were there for two years, and Tommy got, Clay Little Page got the Bunker's job.

Tommy got the Penn job, and they promoted me at age 26. So I was a head coach at 26, and always thankful for that opportunity from Lehigh University. All right, you get the job at 26 years old. What do you do? Your first head coaching job, you've been, you know, you've been around sports. You know, it's not, it's like an hour or a little bit more than an hour outside of Philly. So you have that, but it's also, you know, back then there were the engineers before the Mountain Hawks, right?

But it's a school of really good academic repute, which you'd been at Wake, you've been at Penn. So you knew the gyms you were supposed to be into. But to be a head coach that young, what was it like? What do you remember about your first experiences? It was, it was challenging. And it was, it was, it was. exciting, but it was also probably a little nerve wracking.

You know, all of a sudden, you're an assistant, you're an assistant, and all of a sudden, what's the big difference? We all know. You go from making suggestions to making decisions. Time out, those players are looking at you. You come down to recruiting these three guys for one spot. Who do you want? Okay, let's make this the right call.

Let's get the right guy. and so you're also the face of the program. So you're speaking to alumni groups, and you're handling the media. And I remember, it's funny you should ask that question, because ironically, we were in a man of Hawkeye Classic at the University of Iowa my first year at Lehigh. So I get the job.

We're scheduled to play the University of Iowa in about six weeks. So I get a call from Jerry Strong, who was the director of ops at the time, he says, hey, you know, what's your topic? I'm like, topic for what? He goes, well, we have a coaching clinic. When you come out here to play in the tournament, you're going to speak at our coaching clinic, there's going to be 1,300 coaches there.

I've never spoken at a coaching clinic before. So I said, I'm going to get back to you on that. I've got to think about what I want to talk about, so I call it back and did it. You know, I walk in and said, I'll have a sum in an overhead projector speaking to 1,300 high school coaches. a lot of them are in their 50s and 60s, I'm 26 years old. But I remember I coached against George Ravelling. And I remember what I also coached against, I'm trying to remember who was,

I think it might have been Rick Majerus. He was at Ball State at the time. Wow. Yeah. I think, yeah. So, I mean, you know, it just, Doug, it goes fast. All of a sudden, you think, it looks, it seems like it was yesterday. It was 1985.

Fray McAfrey, joined me here on the, on the All Ball podcast. then you made a decision which I've seen a couple people do since right I'm thinking of what Chris did before he when he left Gardner Webb and went up to Butler to become an assistant coach because you felt like you

like you had to have what high major experience to get a high major job like why leave the Lehigh job to go work for Digger at Notre Dame well we go to the tournament 88 and had a great team and I interviewed for two positions that year. One was the University of Massachusetts when John Calapari was hired.

The other was SMU when John Shoemate was hired. And what I tried to do was, you know, since I didn't get either position, is to gain some feedback on, okay, why not me? Why did you hire somebody else? I had great respect for, I knew Calapari really well. we were good friends from our days at five stars. So it's like, all right, we didn't pick you. So these are the reasons why.

I said, I want you to tell me the truth. Well, we didn't feel like you could recruit on a national level. You've done a good job recruiting. You've got a really good team. You coach them up. You know, we played the number one team in the NCAA tournament that you're right down to the wire. It looks like you, from a technical standpoint, know what you're doing, but you didn't ever recruit anybody

basically outside of Pennsylvania and New Jersey. So you can get angry and there, you know people don't know what you're doing, or you can say, you know what? All right, I somehow have to complete the picture here. I have to expand and maybe leave the comfort zone of being a head coach and I just bought a home and now I've got to sell it, all that kind of stuff.

The easy thing would have been to stay, but Schumann got the SMU job. He was assistant at Notre Dame, so I called Digger. I said, coach, I like to come work for you. And he was surprised, you know, like the head coach would want to do that. And he was very candid. He just today, I got two people in mind. I'm going to offer it to them. I might call you, but I might not.

You had just taken Lehigh to the NCAA tournament at like 28 years old, and he wasn't, he didn't, he, he, he, he, he, you weren't his first. choice. It was not his first choice. And he told me who, he told me, he says, I want to offer the job to Don Casey and Craig Littlepage, who, you know, Casey had been to coach at Temple and Craig Littlepage, you know, was a coach at Rutgers, coach at Penn, assistant at Virginia. I mean, I knew both of them.

Craig gave me my first job. So I was like, you know what, coach, you know, if you get Craig Littlepage or Don Casey, I mean, you've had a, not a home run. You did a grand slam, so I get it. And he called me about six weeks later. I said, you know, they turned it down. They didn't want to do it. I went out for an interview.

And when I went out there, I figured out that Digger doesn't, he really doesn't do interviews. It's kind of like I already decided who I wanted. Like you wanted those two guys. They said, no, and then it was like, yeah, yeah, you know, we had lunch. We talked a little bit, but it wasn't like, here, here's, you know, let's X and O, let's talk this thing.

It was like, no, this is a guy. and wanted to make sure I got along with the other assistance. Maddie Kohl-Kullin I'd known for years. Jeff Nix and I are best friends still this day and very thankful for the opportunity to coach at Notre Dame that Digger gave me. What was Digger really like? I mean, I do think that there's a generation of people who don't understand.

All they know is they beat UCLA, and they know a little bit about the highlighters and that he was on ESPN for a long time. but they don't know. It was a remarkable run of success there. Granted, it was a different era when there was only one game a week on TV, and Notre Dame was usually one of those teams. But as far as as a coach, as a guy to work for, what was he like?

Well, he was challenging to work for because he was incredibly demanding. But he would do anything for you as an amazing heart, never more evident than when my son Patrick got cancer five years ago. I mean, the way he reached out to me and the things that he did speak to exactly who he. But you're right, Doug, in those days, he was more of a national celebrity. There were days when I would say to myself, God, it's tough to be him today. Everybody was pulling at him. You know, he had so many things going, whether it be with TV.

I mean, he was friends with George Bush. I mean, you know, you'd be sitting in your office watching film when you hear the secretary said, okay, I got the White House on the phone coach. You know, he's like, oh, wow, okay. The White House is reaching out to my boss who's in the next office. You know, I remember we went to see President Bush speak on campus, and, you know, the speech ended. There's secret service everywhere. Come on, let's go.

We go in this room. It's the president and the vice president and the president of the United States. I mean, that's the kind of guy he was. But, you know, he was tough on you, but he'd look out for you. He would try to take care of you. And he would help you. He helped a number of coaches in their coaching career advanced. But the technical side, I mean, he was really good.

Like, he could break a film down extremely well. And I remember a lot of film sessions with him, which were challenging, because he's challenging you while you're watching it. You know, like if it was your scout, boy, you better be on your toes. Yeah, you tell me the story about the Indiana game, right? They only ran one in the bounce. You lost 13 pounds.

I lost 13 pounds? Get ready for that game. 13 pounds. Yeah, I never watched so much tape on one team. I think I watched 37 tapes. And he would say, okay, what did they do three years ago when we were down? I better watch that game from three years ago. And the crazy thing about Indiana is they don't actually do anything, right? I mean, there's no, like, it wasn't called plays.

He basically made a couple different kinds of motion. They didn't have motion to play man to man. And occasionally he would call triangle, and they would go two out three in. That was it. Yeah, yeah. But they would carve you up, you know, with flare screens and, and that was always an interesting game. You know, was my first scout, literally my first scout, and we win the game. Joe Frederick hit a huge shot at the end of the game to win it for us.

And ironically, now his nephew, C.J. Frederick, plays for us here at Iowa. Okay, so then, obviously, then John McLeod comes in. And you're one of the people, my brother had this when he went to work for Ben Braun. Ben Braun gets fired seven months in, and he ends up being the only guy that Mike Montgomery ended up keeping. Why did you stay when John McLeod came and was head coach? Well, I wanted to stay, number one. I wanted the opportunity to work for Coach McLeod. His reputation was impeccable, but I didn't know him.

And so Maddie Cole got the Jacksonville head coaching job. So Jeff Nixon and I were the only two that were left. And we both wanted to stay with coach. So we didn't know if he would do that. He offered positions to Jeff Van Gundy and the other assistant at the time, former NBA player. Was it Garfield Hurd? We'll go with Garfield.

He played for him. I'm trying to remember whoever was on his staff with the Knicks. Okay, I don't think it was Garfield Hurd. But anyway, he offered the job with them. Those guys stayed in the pros. That had very successful careers in pros, both of them. And they were player, you know, the one was a player, the other one was Jeff and God who had been in a while.

So, interesting, Doug, because he just allowed us for three weeks. He came to work, we came to work. And I was going to say, coach, you know, we got a, we've got a recruiting class we've got to stay in touch with those guys maybe we've got to go see him these are our top recruits let's get on the phone with them

and one night he says hey let's let's go watch the NBA playoffs so we met and we talked recruiting and so he was what he was doing was he was trying to get to know us and he was watching us work

I would show him tape on this is a guy that really like I think we should get him but if we're going to do it we've got to get you on the phone with him and his dad his mom his coach, you coach, et cetera. And so I was just trying to point him in the right direction

so that we were kind of hit the ground running, as they say. And after about three weeks, he brought both of us in and said, look, I'm watching you guys like how you work. I'd like for you to stay and work for him. As a coach, we want to work for you.

And, you know, I just loved the guy and really enjoyed the opportunity and learned a tremendous amount from him. Then you get the job, like right as, as he got fired at Notre Dame, you get the job at Greensboro.

What was that like to, you know, you're on the rise, you're at Lehigh, you go to Notre Dame with the thoughts of, all right, in order to break through the high major level, I need some time here. And then now you're back at kind of at Greensboro. What was that experience like? Well, it was exhilarating because I was back to being a head coach. I had a great boss in Nelson Bob. We had an up-and-coming program, and it was a different part of the country. Margaret and I moved.

Connor was a baby. We moved down south and really enjoyed my six years there. You're back to calling the shots. And I think what I was was thankful for the opportunity rather than, boy, I could have been to coach at such and such. I mean, think about how many coaches you know, all of whom can say that. I thought I'd be at this level at this time. There's no blueprint for that.

You just got to keep grinding. And, you know, I was just thankful for that chance. And I was prepared to be there for the rest of my career. If that's the way it was going to be. And luckily, I had a chance six years later to go to Sienna. And that was a great opportunity as well. I'm very thankful for John D'Argenio to give me a shot. You guys had it rolling at Sienna.

I mean, really rolling. Sweet 16 rolling. And it's kind of a special place there. I mean, the Capital District, not just the rival. with Albany, but the idea that important people really pay attention. And, you know, I've heard stories of, you know, some of the, there's a group of guys that they come to every practice and they kind of report back to the rest of the boosters. Sienna obviously hasn't been the same since you left, but they've had some, they've had

some incredible rises and obviously some falls. That job felt like it prepared you for Iowa. I don't know, to me, like just because of the importance of that job in that area, whereas, you know, University of Iowa, that's the biggest job in that state, no matter how good Iowa Staters or Northern was for a while. What's unique about the Sienna job? It's allowed to, one, be successful,

but also, too, one that's really challenging. I think that's a great point, Doug. It is all of what you said for this reason. It has its own identity in the Capitol District. The Capital District is equidistant from Boston and New York,

but far enough away from both to have its own identity. We have our own TV stations. our own arena. So the people that lived there had been Seattle basketball fans since the 50s. They had the Albany patroons. So that was the old CBA, Phil Jackson coach there, George Carl, coach there. So this is a basketball community. High school basketball was really good there.

And so what happens, you had all the TV stations and all the print media cover your team, you know, like you're the New England Patriots. So that's what you're talking about in terms of the preparation for being a BCS coach. I don't know that there's a better place to start because you get a chance to coach in a big-time arena with everybody scrutinizing everything that you're doing. And it was the early stages of the Internet, message boards, and all that kind of stuff. It was really a fun place to be, an incredibly fun place to be,

because of the interest. And you're right, we would have anywhere from to 30 guys come to practice every day. A lot of retired guys that were Sienna alums or didn't go to Sienna, but were Sienna basketball fans from when they were kids growing up in the Capitol District. And so when you get to this level,

and now you have that same type of scrutiny, you've already been through it. You know, it's no big deal. You know, you don't take anything personal. You just keep grinding. You know, you've got to keep, what needs to stay in house and house, get your guys focused, and take care of your players and make sure that they're doing what they need to be doing,

and you build it. And to be honest with you, it's one of those places that you really, once you're there, you could stay there because it's a great place to live. There's great people. They're fair with you. They support you. And I signed an eight-year deal right before I left and really felt like, okay, I want to end up with my children growing up in this town.

and this is where we're going to be. It would only be something very special, like a BCS opportunity, at a place like Iowa that would lure me away. And thankfully, Gary Barter gave me that opportunity. Really quickly, what is that process like? Because you did sign an eight-year deal. And this is something fans are very flippant about. If coaches can leave, then players should be able to leave.

And they think of coaches as just chasing paychecks and not caring about the relationships they leave behind. about that, about the decision, you know, it's a major decision and about how you handled it to try and leave on good terms. Well, first of all, it's really hard. What made it manageable for me was we accomplished a lot at the time that I was there, and the program was in great shape when I left. I had an unbelievable relationship with Father Mullen, who was our president. Matter of fact, he texted me after the Northwestern game.

He watched the whole game. and I remember I put my wife on the phone to say goodbye to Father Mullen and she burst into tears that's how much you know we both loved him and so it is hard to leave I would have had a real hard time leaving

two or three years earlier I couldn't have done it and sometimes you have to leave when the opportunity presents itself and I get the whole the way the fans look at it but there's a couple things too you know sometimes

it doesn't go like that, and they're getting rid of you quickly. Yeah. You know, so at the end of the day, it's about relationships, but it's also a business. And you have a family, and you have an opportunity professionally. And I can't imagine leaving on better terms than I did. I mean, until this day, John and I are really close. Father Mullen and I are close. all my sienna guys

that was on the phone yesterday Kenny Hasbroke one of my favorite players I've ever coached he was a player of the year hit the three out of the corner when he beat Ohio State his dad passed away yesterday so I'm on the phone with him

tell him how much I love him and hope he's doing okay and thought to him about his mom and his sister so those relationships don't end but sometimes you know you have an opportunity and then there's financial implications a lot of people think you just pick up and leave

No, there's buyouts, and those buyouts are often substantial. And it's like, well, the school pays it. Well, it's all coming out of the same pot. The school pays it, that's fine, but that's what you're getting. So essentially you're paying it. And the way it was written on my contract, you know, somehow, some way that was going to be compensated. So the school was covered from a financial perspective. You know, it's interesting, though, because I remember in the 80s, the idea was floated about,

tenure for college basketball coaches. You're an employee of the university just like a professor is. Maybe that will curb cheating. Maybe it will be more on the up and up. And faculty went crazy. You're not faculty. You're coaches.

So you're going to be treated differently. And that's fine. I get that. We are different than the faculty. But, you know, we live in a fickle world and you could be riding high one day and not the other. And next thing you know, you know, you've got

three, four, five. kids, you've got to up and move and pay your mortgage. I mean, nothing that anybody else doesn't deal with in whatever profession you're in. And you hope that any time you're in any position, it goes the way it did when I was at Sienna with unbelievable people, relationships that were maintained. All of our guys graduated. We won championships. Okay, an opportunity to present itself from me and my family, and everybody was thrilled

for me. Last thing here. what does it mean to you? I think one of the reasons that you had to go to Notre Dame was you didn't have a godfather, right? You didn't, when you're at Penn and you're at Lehigh, you didn't have a godfather who could pick up the phone and make a call for you to get you that bigger job. And you've been able to do this not solely on your own. A lot of it is relationships that you have so many of on the East Coast. But like, look, you know, you had to go take the Greensboro job and win to get the Sienna job and win to get the Iowa job.

what's it mean to be coaching in a place like Iowa, in a league like the Big Ten, which is an unbelievably accomplished coaches league, right? To stand there on the sidelines, and you guys have been good, and after a down year, now you're really, really good. Do you ever have time to take a deep breath in

and look around and have that perspective? That's a great question. And when people say that's a great question, oftentimes it means they don't really have a great answer. you know I don't I probably don't do that you know you're kind of living in the moment I know but like let me I'll just share my my first like look I have I have you know I'm I'm I have I have the same problem that I think a lot of coaches have word you know I just I constantly want more and I'm this is like my third network and and some people don't know how to take that you want

more right but I'm like you I'm a competitive guy and every once in a while I do have the moment where I realize like hey I didn't play a Duke I didn't play a Duke I didn't play a Syracuse. I didn't play in a Final Four. And yet I've been able to carve out a very good career for myself and provide for my family, right? Whereas, you know, you didn't play a Duke, you didn't play at Carolina, you know, you didn't play a Kentucky, you didn't work for Dean Smith, you didn't work for Mike Cheshefsky, and yet you've been able to carve out an incredible career for yourself. And I just wonder if you've ever had that moment where you look around and you go like, damn. Like even if I don't ever reach a Final Four national championship, I have made it in whatever

the over under is, you've hit the over. in terms of success. I think that's a great way to put it. I recognize every day how important Hawkeye Athletics is to the people in this state and to our alums and our fan base. So I don't ever underestimate what it means to be sitting in the chair

that I'm sitting in right now. And the one thing I've always done is never looked at the next opportunity I only try to do the job that's here. If an opportunity presents itself after the season, and maybe you can take a look at it, I don't have any intention to doing that here. But, you know, I recognize that this is important what we're doing.

It means it's important to a lot of people. But at the end of the day, as well, I'm coaching another man and another woman's child. that's the most important thing. How do I treat that person? You know, if I have a guy who's struggling in the classroom, if he's struggling with depression, if he's not playing well, I need to get him playing well.

If he expected more, he's not playing as much, can we get the most out of him playing what he's playing and get total buy-in like we talked about at the start of the show. So, you know, I am excited and I am thrilled. I don't know that I do enough of what you said to say, hey, you know, this is really good because I'm grinding. But I am appreciative and thankful and recognize that, you know, when I walk out on the court, and there's 15,000 people there and there's a national television audience, that's pretty cool. And when I take a recruit on to the field of Kinnick Stadium, and there's 70,000 people.

You know, I brought Luca Garza in. He did 15,000 on Friday night for one of our games, $42,000 for the rest of the game. match on Saturday, outside, and then $70,000 that night for football. That's pretty cool. And then you had a kid from Washington, D.C. to say, yeah, I'll come up and play for you. Or Tyler Cook. I mean, you always appreciate that. So it's exciting.

It's exhilarating, but it's also challenging. And like I said, nerve-wracking sometimes, and you just keep grinding. And right now we're just trying to figure out to beat Rutgers. Awesome. I appreciate your friendship. It's been a long time. Me too, Doug. Always great talking with you. And look forward to seeing you sometime soon. Hopefully, before the final forward, if not definitely then. All right, man. I love you, man. Thanks so much. We do, but take care.

Let me give a couple other things here. There's just so much talk about the Lakers and the proposed trade and what happens to the Lakers. Look, by people inside the Lakers have said, we weren't offering up all of our prospects and draft picks and cap cap room. If that was offered, then Del Demp's is a complete idiot for not taking it. Now, Del Demp's might be an idiot for not taking whatever was offered. And Del Demp's had the Lakers in some level as the only ones kind of negotiate against themselves. But there's a lot of risk there if you're Demps. A lot. A lot of risk there if you're Dems in that the offer may not come out as strong.

Think about the things that have to go his way. the, I was, I was doing the UCLA Utah game. And Utah came from 17 down with six minutes to go and won the game. And Utah was down three with eight seconds to go. UCLA fouled them with 6.9 seconds to go. And I said at the time on the broadcast, I said, hey, look, I thought they fouled too early. But they foul and Utah makes both free throws. Then Utah fouls.

Ushaly makes one out of two and Van Dyke makes a three at the buzzer and Utah pulls off the upset. And there are people, there are people, Ken Pomeroy, just like, hey, to all you people who think you always foul up three, here's what happened. Here's what can happen when you foul up three. My point has always been, yes, it can't happen. There's a percentage chance it happens. But in order to lose when you're up three and you foul under seven seconds to go, Utah had to make both. those free throws, that's not 100% shot. UCLA had to miss

a free throw. In this case, they missed one out of two free throws. And then Utah has to make the shot in order to beat you. There's all, there's these different, like, that's like four things that have to happen. Sometimes you miss the, you're thinking about the second free throw, you miss the first free throw.

Or you miss a free throw and the wrong team gets the basketball. The point is that a bunch of things have to go in your favor for Utah to win the game when the team foul. Whereas if you're down three, all you have to do is make a shot, and now you're a tied game, you go to overtime. Well, the same you could be said for the Pelicans.

In order for the Celtics to engage in a trade, they have to secure Kyrie Irving with a long-term deal. We don't know if that happens. And then they have to get the Celtics to decide they want to trade Jason Tatum. We don't know what that looks like at the end of the season. And even if that happens, they got Anthony Davis to have to want to go there, be willing to show up and we're willing to go like, hey, I'll be having an open mind to resigning.

We don't know if that happens. And then you get the Knicks. A lot of things, they have to get Kevin Durant or get Kemba Walker and make Anthony Davis believe. Otherwise, he doesn't want to go there. And what do they have to send back in return? So I think that in an effort to show, an effort of being petty,

I think the Pelicans come out looking bad. That said, boy, Legers need to start playing better. You'll know early on. They have a stretch there where they play the Pelicans twice and the Grizzlies once. They need to win all three of those games. Need to beat the Sons. Simply beat all the teams they need to beat and split with the playoff teams. And I think they'll be okay.

The question is, can they get to the seventh seed to avoid the Warriors in the first round? It would be an epic series, a really interesting series, but I don't think you'll want to play. I don't think you particularly want to play the Warriors in the first round because that would feel like an early exit. Some of these guys, although they did beat the war. Warriors on Christmas Day without LeBron James. They need Lanzo ball back because he's so good defensively, and LeBron's not as good

defensively as used to be in Kyle Kuzum is not a good defender. Rondo's not what his reputation tells he's a defender either. And to anybody out there who says that the Celtics are better without Kyrie Irving, ask anybody in the league, look at the metrics. And oh, yeah, by the way, look at the quality of opponent when he's playing. It's simply not true. If it were true, if they felt it was true, they would move him. but the reason they want they're willing to move mountains to bring back

Kyrie Irvin to continue to recruit him when he can be a little bit of pain in the ass is because he is in fact that good. All right. I hope you enjoyed the All-Ball podcast. Enjoyed my good friend Fran McCaffrey. I thought that was a really interesting tale. We got great stuff for you. I've got to make sure you download rate and subscribe and tell a friend about this pod

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