The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Gottlieb – All Ball - Clippers vs. Lakers Kawhi fit with NBA writer Dan Woike; Pistons Asst. GM Pat Garrity on transition from player to front office

Episode Date: July 4, 2019

Subscribe here to the All Ball with Doug Gottlieb Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2.  This week, Gottlieb discusses the Lakers vs. Clippers as a fit for Kawhi and other free agency news with L.A. Times NBA writer Dan Woike, why the sweepstakes has been good for the Lakers' brand, how Kawhi to the Clippers could permanently change their brand. Pistons Asst. GM Pat Garrity discusses his fascinating path from Notre Dame to playing in the NBA, to the front office in Detroit. Download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts: Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

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I'm Doug Gottlieb, and you have downloaded, and hopefully you'll subscribe and rate my all-ball podcast, all basketball all the time. On today's podcast. Now, keep in mind, this one is in the can as of Wednesday, July 3rd. So you listen to this on the 4th of July or slightly beyond. There's not all of this is going to be dated. One part that will be is Dan Wojke. We'll get his thoughts on the Lakers. and on the Clippers and on what they're doing and how Kauai Leonard and his decision affects

the Lakers and the Clippers in L.A. basketball. Dan writes for the L.A. Times. We'll also be joined by Pat Garrity. Pat is the assistant general manager of the Detroit Pistons. He's formerly the president of the NBA PA. He also has a master's degree from Duke University School of Business, as well as an undergrad from the University of Notre Dame. He and I played together for a year and he's an unbelievably bright guy with an amazing kind of personal story. Wait to you hear how he became an assistant general manager in the NBA and we'll also talk about the Blake Griffin trade and how it actually happened whose idea it really, really was.

But let me give you a couple of different things, couple different thoughts before we get to Dan Wojke. So look, I think I'm in line with just about everybody on the Utah. thing, I like the jazz a lot. And while Houston State Pat, doesn't seem to be happy about it, Golden State's going to have to rebuild and we'll try and figure out what they're going to throw out there.

We're waiting to see if Kauai joins out of the L.A. teams, either one he joins becomes a contender, and if he joins the Lakers, they become a favorite. The spurs are still out there. The Mavericks should be better. I think the Thunder should be better. And, of course, they haven't been able to move Stephen Adams or Dennis Schrooter to this point, but it's a long offseason.

So I like the jazz. You know, some things have to go. Mike Conley has to stay healthy. And it's a long season. He makes a lot of money. He's their point guard. They put a lot of shooting around, around their best player. So I get it.

I think he could work. I think he could work. but if the Lakers aren't competitive at the end of the year, I'd be surprised. And if the Lakers aren't favorites at the end of the year, I'd be surprised. The Lakers at Kauai Leonard, I do think they're an overwhelming favorite. I'll only point this out that there's some extenuating circumstances as to why it's okay for Kauai to go to L.A. He told San Antonio that's where he wanted to go. It is, in fact, the Lakers.

It is, in fact, home. And it's not like his choice is, well, you could be. five hours from home or right here at home. No, his choice is a different country. Is a different country. But let's get into what is the best decision. I mean, brand-wise, I think probably the Lakers. Basketball-wise, probably the Clippers.

But if you like the idea of, hey, I can always come back to L.A. and always be somebody in L.A. And I own a whole country, like the Toronto thing's not a bad play. the clipper thing seems to be to be more how he wants to play basketball. It just does. The problem is you're betting on the clippers and their culture carrying over into another year. And, you know, they will have Lou Williams, they have Montres Herald, they'll have Patrick Beverly. And now they have it have a star to kind of go to.

Like, I like all of those things. But you're going to try and do something that has literally never been done. Like Toronto hadn't been done, but they had had some form of playoff success. The clippers have had none. I think he fits best for the clippers. And I think the fascinating point is that the clippers have spent a year trying to do everything the right way in order to get him. And now we have no idea if that actually works. Like why they have Lee Jenkins?

Why they fire Bruce Bowen? All just to get this one guy. So I just, I feel for the clippers if it doesn't go through, but it's not their fault. but they would, in fact, still be the clippers if they didn't get him. The Lakers, look, I think they're going to be fine. They got Anthony Davis. They got LeBron James. I don't think their expectations were to get Kauai Leonard.

I think they thought, you know, we should have a shot at this thing. I think it's become a little bit, they got a little bit, they've got a couple more dates than they thought they would get. Like, they thought, I will get. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, And nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down,

give you context and ask the questions everybody wants. answer. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicelife-Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Trip Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross. Because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth.

Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose

on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff, like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game.

This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Quarterback on office blue 42. Hey, rep, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. American soccer is about to explode.

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My only concern is what happens in the back. The biggest decisions. If you're going to look at stats and numbers, he has no shot at making this World Cup team. And the truth about the U.S. national team. It wouldn't be a huge surprise. prize if our team ends up in the quarterfinals or potentially a great run into the semifinals. The World Cup is almost here. Experience it all with us.

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And then you have Toronto who they haven't done anything wrong. They move mountains with no promises and got what they wanted and threw out the absolute red carpet. And they want to contain their excitement. And while everybody's being told to be quiet, Raptors fans somehow figured out where the meeting is and they surround the place. They just want him to know they love him, which I'm sure he knows. And I can't blame Raptors fans. I will tell you, though, it's a weird time in Los Angeles where Magic Johnson is so attention starved that he's clearly leaked out stories that, hey, don't worry, I'm handling the Kauai thing

so that if they get Kauai, Magic gets some form of credit. And if they don't, the blame is cast at the foot of Rob Polinkin, not of Magic Johnson. However accurate that might be, that may be super accurate. I don't know. It's not something you do, unless, of course, you're magic and you're trying to save your brand when other people have taken shots at it. But most of the reason they've taken shots at it is not on the court. It's the fact that we all know you haven't showed up ready to work every day for what your job entails. Betr river sports book wants to invite you to discover the complete sports betting experience. The foundation of that experience is a massive number of betting options on nearly every regulated sporting event around the world.

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Visit royal Caribbean.com to learn more. All right, here's what we're going to do. Dan Wojke is going to join us from the LA Times. Get his thoughts on all things Kauai. Leonard, if, when, why, how, whatever. And then we'll talk to Pat Garrity of the Detroit Pistons. Here's my discussion with Dan Wojke of the LA Times. Okay, so, Dan, let's start with the Lakers because this is weird, right?

Like, the whole thing is just, I mean, I know some people in the organization. I know you probably more people who are. in the organization, people that have left the organization. Obviously, there's that kind of small group that's always been there. But you go from, all right, magic has a plan. He and Polinka somehow kind of coexisting to Magic calling Polinka a backstabber, quitting early, going on TV, kind of napalming the place. They still pull off the Anthony Davis trade.

And now all of a sudden, they're a finalist for Kauai, whereas everyone else thought no shot that Kauai wanted to be there. there. How would you characterize what this Laker thing has been like? I mean, I think, Doug, this has been like a really big victory for the Lakers as a brand, right? It's a reminder, I think, of how strong the purple and gold and the history and sort of their great superstars have meant, you know, to depend on how important they still are to people around the NBA, because if we're being honest, the Lakers didn't do anything other than merely having the cap space. They didn't do anything

strategically right. They didn't put together a wildly interesting young core to get LeBron James. They did it just kind of by being in Los Angeles, right? Like this is how they got him. And because of their history, because of what it means to be a Laker,

the same kind of goes for getting Anthony Davis. Rob Polica certainly signed off on the trade, but pretty much just opened up the wallet and said, take whatever players you want, take whatever draft picks you want, we have to get this done. And they got that done. You know, to be in this Kauai position that they're in is a surprise to a lot of people who know Kauai. A lot of people who've been around Kauai. It's not as big of a surprise, believe it or not,

to some of the other teams chasing them who always kind of feared the Lakers a little bit. I think, again, because of sort of respect of what they are in terms of a marquee place and what they mean to people. It's not a typical sort of I'm looking for. It's just not a typical franchise in that sense, right? Like it's what the Knicks want to be. The Lakers are actually the actualized version of it, and I think we've seen that in these last two off seasons.

That makes sense. No, it's a great point. And the interesting thing is the Knicks, for the most part, have their young players. They didn't hold on to Przingis, but they have their young players, whereas outside of Kyle Kuzma, the Lakers do not,

Kuzman does fit with what they want to do. Just kind of outside the box thought here. Is there any chance that he's doing this and making the Lakers believe they have a shot so that he can ultimately choose the clippers and it hurts the Lakers because there's no one left to fill that salary spent? I mean, I think it's certainly a little bit of a possibility, but it doesn't seem to line up kind of with, you know, the kind of person that, you know, we think Kauai Leonard is. Everything, too, about what we know or

about Kauilandard, it should be kind of come with the asterisk of like, well, this is what we've either been able to decipher or have heard, because we don't know a lot about him personally. Very few people do. You know, as, I mean, everybody kind of knows this. He's a pretty, pretty guarded person.

You know, it doesn't make a ton of sense. I was looking around today, Doug, I was thinking about it. You know, the decision, when LeBron did the decision, it came on July 8th. Right? So over a week into free agency, I think what happened here this year is you've got a player who actually wanted to take meetings, who wanted to take his time because he knows he's making an important decision, and you had a free agent market that didn't wait for him, which is a little bizarre, right? Like typically the market kind of waits for a guy like Kauai Leonard. Well, that didn't happen this year.

It was sort of, you know, as if someone had kind of grabbed a hose and kinked it and got it nice and tight so nothing was coming out. And then at 3 o'clock on Sunday, you open and just all of a sudden, all the free agents are gone. You know, and billions of dollars have been committed and all of this stuff within 20 minutes. And, you know, yeah, like the market's pretty picked over. I think this to me is much more about, you know, a career-altering decision than it is about, you know, screwing over the Lakers. Who, by the way, whether he comes or not, at this point have some really, really interesting decisions to make with the money they'll either have because they don't get collier

without the money they won't have because they do. Filling out a roster with, you know, 8, 9, 10 minimum players is unprecedented in the NBA. And I'm very curious to see how how Rob Link is going to do this

because to me, this is like sort of the test for him. The easy stuff was getting LeBrona commit. The easy stuff was, you know, like I said, just kind of opening up and handing all your money and all your assets over to New Orleans

and saying, okay, we want Anthony Davis. That stuff was easy. Like, now this is the hard part is, you know, getting Kauai Leonard, even getting Kauai Leonard, you know, not really about Rob Polinka. Filling up the rest of the roster, that's going to be about Rob Polika. And I think any sort of praise for him or anything like that has to be reserved until we see what the product looks like.

Yeah. I love Jared Dudley, but Jared Dudley's... Yeah, great signing. Good signing. Can he actually play basketball anymore? I mean, you're going to... need, see, I think like a little, like he was a little useful, right, in the, um, in the playoff series of Philadelphia. No, no, no, he, no, he, the, the only thing he's really known for is rattling the cage of

Ben Simmons and then shooting up an air ball, shooting up a ridiculous airball, like, I just, some small ball center in that series, which I think is like, okay, I'm a believer. I think you are too in position of versatility. and like that matters. Look, I mean, he was good enough to start 25 games last year. Like, great. But, like, this is kind of what the market. I mean, I like Dudley in the sense that I think,

and being around the Lakers last year, and seeing kind of the amount of role players you do. Because let me unwind this for a second. I think generally speaking, right, there are two different kinds of players you can get on minimum contracts. You get guys who can't get contracts elsewhere, right? and are there because they want another year in the NBA and they want to keep playing and they want to have a role on a team.

And then you have guys who are there because they sign the one-year minimum or they sign the one-year deal because they want to go get paid again next summer. Jared Dilley is not to go get paid again next summer guys. So you don't have to worry a lot about, you know, pimping selfish. You don't have to worry about a lot of that stuff. And I think, again, in this situation, when you're going to have so many guys in that position, having, like, a good locker room guy, like, that's part of it. Now, whether that helps out on the court, you know, hard to say.

Probably not a ton. But I think, you know, that locker room last year was a very young locker room. It was a separated locker room in a lot of ways. I think having kind of a cohesion guy, like a good teammate guy, I think helps them. What that does on the court, it's impossible to know. All right. Let's talk about the Clippers. All right.

I don't know. The Nets are like the seventh most popular franchise. in New York, right? The baseball teams, the baseball teams, the Knicks are a bigger name, and of course the Rangers are bigger. But Brooklyn has been on the rise as a borough. The arena is spectacular.

The location, that area is blowing up. And, I mean, this is a, it's not the death knell to the Knicks, but it sure feels like they're in critical care. The Lakers would still have Anthony Davis, would still have LeBron James. But what would it signify if they got Kauai Leonard? I mean, I think it would validate sort of the last, like, the last two years of, you know,

this organizational path, like since the Blake Griffin trade, really. I mean, it validates all of those moves. And to be honest, let me, again, reset, I don't think they need Kauai to validate that stuff. I think if you talk to Fask while people are around the league and you look at what the Clippers have done and you look at the decisions they've made. They're operating right now as one of the smarter franchises in the league. And that's not always been the case with the clippers. You know what I mean?

A place where dysfunction is, you know, like that should be the first number they retire is just a jersey that's a dysfunction. You know, that's been more defining of a characteristic than being smart and doing the right thing. And they've been smart and done the right thing. I mean, even in the midst of this Kauai chase, you know, kind of wedging them into a four-team sent-in-trade so they can get a useful player Moharkless on an expiring deal along with another first-round pick.

Just being ready for that type of stuff. They've done a very good job. If they get him, I think it is a little bit of a shot across the Lakers bow. I think they know that they're not going to catch the Lakers, you know, without, like, getting past the Lakers here is like a 30-year plan. It can't be any quicker than that. I find these things to be generally hard. But it's a big enough mark to support two teams.

You know, Clipper fans really fell in love with this team last year. I think they would obviously be even more excited about a Kauai Leonard team. And it would give them a, like, a real, real chance at a championship. You know, they've had probably two of those, I think, kind of, if we're being honest, and the Lobb City are like two real good cracks at it. And weird stuff happened both times. This would probably give them their best chance. With a really good young roster, tons of flexibility.

You know, is it, are they going to overtake the Lakers? I don't think so now with LeBron and Anthony Davis. But I think they're certainly a viable alternative in the marketplace. And, you know, it would be, again, a very exciting brand of basketball, a really likeable kind of hard-nosed, tough-nose team that the Clipper fans really fell in love with last year. Last thing. What if he doesn't come back? Like, this would be the second consecutive.

executive, all-pro level player, all-star level player, and obviously Kauai is an even higher-level player than Paul George, the second guy who forced his way out of his first home and said, I want to come to L.A., and then he's like, nah, I'm good. What if he decides to not come to L.A.? What does it say about? Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode. we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker

room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters, to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlic on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12

and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests.

I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch life becomes about wins and losses steve burns dustin ross because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid because that's two different intentions bro absolutely and that that's two different levels of trust i want you to

just really be a good person join me keir games is we have real conversations conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff.

Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Brett. My mama want you to weigh better.

What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what.

He's the smartest player. they ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this

series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night to night bases on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too.

Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers, why he got the ball. Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Los Angeles Professional basketball. I think to me it says more about, like, the power.

I think it'll be really, and really I think it'll be good for the league. And here's why. I think when guys are in this situation where they want to be moved late in contracts and stuff like that, that, you know, this is what worked for Rich Paul with Anthony Davis, right? Is like you suppress the market where only big market teams are in it because you know you're going to lose a guy. You just know it. And so there's no point in going for it and that consolidates talent in a handful of places. to me, like, if Kauai goes back, it's just another sort of like, another victory for, like, team go for it and take the risks, right?

Like, like the way Oklahoma City did, the way where they leverage really good assets for what might only be a year, the way that Toronto did by, you know, trading one of the most popular players, you know, in the country's basketball history, honestly, right? I mean, De Marder Rosen, so few players have seemed to want to be a part of the Toronto Raptors. Demar de Rosen did, and they took a huge risk by moving him. You know, they pissed off Kyle Lowry. There were fans that were very upset for a guy that supposedly didn't want to be there. Well, like, you can create a culture and you can recruit that way. And then conversely, I think it's a hit for, like, the big market teams who think they can just sit and wait, you know, and you didn't like that you don't have to make the move.

You don't have to give up assets to get guys. no like when you have the opportunity you go and do it and credit to the lakers for doing that with aunt david for not being arrogant for not just sitting and waiting and letting another team like maybe say like denver come in and make an offer and convince adi to stay in Denver next year um i i think that's sort of the exciting part about it for the league is that it opens up more sort of viable pathways for teams when it comes to acquiring a superstar and and i think as far as like coming home, it's not for everybody. You know, Kauai, it does feel like it's important to him, Doug.

But, you know, for Paul George, maybe it wasn't that, I mean, he seems like someone who enjoys, like he has a fishing pond at his house and he seems like he likes that. Yeah. And, and, you know, home doesn't always, home doesn't always mean the same thing at the same time in life. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's a, it's a, as a guy who's lived outside of Southern California, a good portion of my professional life, I can tell you that, and I've twice moved back here.

It's different both times. And there are things that I love, but there are things that I don't love about it. Obviously, I'm not in their tax bracket. So you can love a whole lot more when you're making a 30 mil a year. Dan, I appreciate you join us. I'm like everybody else. Can't wait to see what happens. It's a fascinating time in the NBA, especially here in Los Angeles.

Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Doug. One thing real quick, I think this is one of the best free agencies that I can remember because it does feel like everybody involved is like, made such compelling pitches and it's pretty open like who the three finals are. So rarely do we get to find out a ton about a guy as secret of this Kauai. And I think, you know, whenever he makes a decision, we'll be able to say, oh, well, we know this about it. And that to me is like, I think what I'm most excited about.

Yeah. No, I'm with you. I'm with you, right? Like the Clippers thing does feel like, you know, you're, you're, that's a little engine that could and it's about the culture and they build everything around them. The Raptors thing would be like, hey, you know what? I didn't think I'd love it, but I did, and I'd rather be king of one country than one of the stars in my hometown. And the Lakers thing is completely different.

Like, I don't even know how it would all work because some of them, you know, they all kind of need the basketball at some point. But it would be just an impressive embarrassment of riches. And I don't think anyone would argue with the Lakers being back if they got it done. But you're right. They're three very different and very compelling decision. Yeah. Dan, thanks so much. Thanks, Doug.

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The next chapter in your story includes knowing your status. Learn more and press play on your future at knowmystatus.com, sponsored by Gilead. All right, let's turn you to our long-form discussion of the week. Pat Garrity, when I first met him I was on my recruiting visit in Notre Dame and everyone said like, this is going to be a dude. Six foot 10, tremendous shooter, monument Colorado, brilliant guy.

My first semester at Notre Dame, he got one B. Fran McCaffrey recruited us both, called him in and said, Pat, we didn't bring you in here to get Bs. And I don't believe he got another one while he said Notre Dame as a biochem engineer. Now, Fran McCaffrey was actually joking, trying to bust his balls and motivate him, but nonetheless, he did in fact want to motivate him and it did in fact work. You go from there to being a first round draft pick in the NBA, to playing in the league for a decade, to being head of the NBA PA, to getting his MBA, to working in finance with Bridgewater, and then ultimately returning to the NBA as an assistant GM with the Detroit Pistons.

what an amazing career he has had. Here's my discussion with Pat Garrity of the Detroit Pistons. Let's start not at the very beginning because although your childhood is probably really interesting to you. I'm not sure how interesting it is to everybody else. I'm kidding. So look, you grew up, did you grow up in Monument, Colorado the entire time or was other places before you got there? No, my dad was in the Air Force, so we were all over the place. We were in New York, California, Panama, Texas.

But from high school on, with the exception of one year when I was in South Carolina, it was monument in Colorado just outside of Colorado Springs. So you moved there in high school? Well, I was there through junior high and then starting from fifth grade. And then we moved away one year, lived in Sumter, South Carolina. That sounds hot. That sounds really hot. Well, trivia question here.

It's the adjacent town to Del Vell, which is where John Moran is from. So, yeah, right small town in South Carolina. But then, yeah, that Colorado throughout high school. Okay, so, like, were you always good? When did you first figure out I'm going to be, this is something I'm going to do? I felt my career was a little bit like Forrest Gump because it was like I always liked playing basketball and I didn't play any really AAU up until the time I was a junior and it was just a matter of, you know, show up, was pretty good, got put on the varsity, it was pretty good on that, like the next step. And so there was never like any kind of grand plan. There was never any point where it's like, okay, let's really focus on getting with a skills trainer or. you know, friend coach or all the things that kids do now when they show a little bit of talent.

I just, I just played a lot, and it wasn't really until my junior year of high school that I started getting interest and offers from, you know, mid-level D-1 type schools. And at that point, I just wanted to go to college for free and play basketball. I, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't thinking professional basketball at all. I thought it was going to be, if I go to college and crack a rotation and play, that'd be awesome. but you were always, you're always a straight-A student. Like, was that, and your dad being military, was he, like, hardcore? Like, how did, how did you have that level of discipline personally?

Yeah, you know, it wasn't, so they were both, they were both, my parents were both educated, both both had, you know, beyond a bachelor's degrees. My dad has a doctorate in education. My mom has a master's education. She was a teacher. So, you know, it was, that was. school was always important, but it was never a thing where they were bringing a hammer down. They were pushing, okay, you got to do this so you can get into the best schools.

It was just, you know, you were expected to do your best, and it was always something that I took pride in. I mean, I've always been interested in learning and reading and I've had a curious mind. So for me, it was just a matter of that combined with, you know, wanting to be the best at it. when did when did nother dame first start recruiting well so they first started recruiting me

in the spring of my junior year and i remember how it went back it's funny that this was the way kind of it worked back then which was you know in nineteen ninety three but i got i got a i think i got a letter from fran mccarthy a call who was who was one of the

assistants at the time and he said hey i saw you play can you put together some tapes that you can send a tape so I can show coach McLeod. So I can remember I like rig two VCRs together and somehow came up with like my highlight tape. But you had to make your own highlight tape to kind of sell yourself to McLeod? Yeah, well, because he hadn't seen me yet.

It was just Fran who'd seen me somewhere. And I don't know why. They didn't say, hey, send us the tapes and we'll make them. But for some reason it seemed like it made sense that I was like, rigging two VCRs together and figuring out how to make tape. So made my own tape and sent it there. And that kind of started where then entering that summer before my senior year, went to ABCD and then played on a team, a Colorado team.

There was a pretty good team. Chansy was on that team, a couple other G-1 guys. And then that's when I, that's when coach saw me and, you know, started recruiting me a little bit harder. Do you remember who was on your team at ABCD? Yeah, I do. Circus King. You remember that. Yeah, Oakland, California, sure.

Oakland, California, really tough, fast point guard. I think you like the cow. Yeah, could not shoot it all. He was like, this is like a childhood rival of mine. Because I was supposed to be in your class. I stayed back in eighth grade. So I probably played against Circus King every year once or twice a year. And I think that was back in the old days of the old Oakland soldiers when they actually

had players from Oakland. Yeah. But yeah, okay, so Circus King, go ahead. The Circus King was on there. Omar Givens, who ended up going to UCLA, I believe, right? Yeah, Seattle from Seattle, yeah. And then the Colorado, all the Colorado guys that were on there. So, Chauncey, Ted Pritz, who ended up playing at Colorado, then transferred to Tulane.

Who else was up? Those are the names that kind of stick out, but then the big names in the camp, and he was a year younger, but that was the year of like Stefan Marbury, Felipe Lopez, Denden Hamilton. Those were the big names in that camp. Steve Wojahowski was like put on some team of...

Russian. I remember he was like on an all Russian team and I was watching the game and I'm like, who looks at all this guy's like really good. This is this is well, I can tell this story on the pod. So the story I remember, so he was on this team of Europeans. And it was him and there was

a cat, I got to get him on this pod. There's him and some cat from like Indiana was on it, maybe one other dude. And they were super fun to watch, right? Everybody else was doing, you know, like high ball screen, ISO, you know, one-on-one bullshit. And like they're moving the ball. And I mean, he looks amazing on this team where they're playing real basketball. But I remember at some point, like, we were sitting behind their bench and they had like a translator, or maybe even two translators in the coach. And a guy, like the kid, like the kid, I'm trying to think who was from like Indiana. And they're arguing on the bench and the kid from Indiana is like,

yo, tell him to pass me the fucking ball. And like the translators, the translator said, and like the Russian kid was like, you suck my dick, right? Like it was like,

all of a sudden he started speaking English because he knew that a curse. It was an amazing thing. That was Yipsilani, Michigan. So what I remember about that camp and my dad was our coach. We played in the finals against, Team Michigan and lost.

But I remember about that camp was it was sick. It was really hot. It was in their own, you know, their arena was like one of those, whatever they're called like a little half dome type. Like it was kind of ghetto compared to no one would play in one of those buildings now. And they had fans everywhere. And by fans, I mean the actual like metal fans that try and cool you off. And like here we were a bunch of kids from Southern California.

We had a squad. And J.R. Henderson, who was my A.U. teammate was my roommate and he would come back to the room and wet down towels and lay in bed with a wet towel on each leg and on his forehead to cool off. Like I remember it was that kind of hot. And like all of us were like, whatever we do, we're not going somewhere where it's humid. That's what I remember about that camp. I think that that was the last year we can. So that was that was like a bridge year. I think Converse was the company that was underwriting. And I think Then after that, it went to Teaneck, New Jersey, and was there for a long time.

It was the Adidas camp. Yes, the year before that, it was at UC Irvine. And it was, you know, right to end. But it was also Converse. And that was Yips Lane, Michigan. And then it was at Fairley Dickinson after that. Oh, God. Okay.

Yeah, no, it was, I mean, it was the first, there was some unbelievable player. It was the first time I'd seen Antoine Walker play. Like, Antoine Walker was, was, well, at that point, I'm like, this is one of the best players I've ever seen. Yeah, a lot of good players. That's what was. different about so Antoine Walker would hang out around our area because we had Jelani Gardner who was like the best and Ricky Price and they would shoot dice and talk trash and yeah we had it was it was pretty that was the one thing that was different then was

we used to always go to the Vegas tournaments we didn't play in the AU national tournaments because the Vegas tournaments was like as far as we would go because everybody would come to us but you didn't always see people play so like I remember the year before I was a key I was a going to be a sophomore and I just went to the ABCD camp and I saw Antonio McDice, right? That was like the first time. But it was one of those times when you may have heard of somebody or maybe you didn't, but all of a sudden you got to see other players from around the country. And it was pretty alarming how good some of these dudes were.

Whereas now I do feel like they all kind of see each other and play against each other more. No, for sure now. I mean, with how organized the circuits are now and with how high level like the UIBL circuit is. Like they all know each other. Everyone's seen each other's film, you know, so it's, you're right. I mean, you went to, you know, a tournament in Vegas, just like some of the, the pump or other stuff in Southern California,

which was a big thing that, you know, Colorado teams would go to. You maybe see, you know, one or two high-level D-1 guys on each team, but it was much more spread out. You would, and you'd never see any East Coast players. Okay, so let's, so, so you show up at Notre Dame. You do, what, okay, why did you pick Notre Dame? Well, so the two schools I was choosing between were Stanford and Notre Dame. And after my visit to Stanford, I was like, I wanted to cancel my visit to Notre Dame.

I told my dad, like, look, this place is awesome. It's like beautiful weather. And it wasn't like my dad or my family were big Notre Dame fans, but, you know, he said, just finish it out. You told him you were going to go there, take a visit. And I just remember going there. And it was like the opposite of the Stampton. visit. Like the Stanford visit, like, teammates were great, you know, went to parties, like,

weather was terrific. We go to South Bend. It was like junior, it was like parents weekend. No one was doing anything. I think Ryan Hoover at the time, I still kid him about this. Like, like, gave me the 40 bucks that he had. He said, like, go take me to dinner and he's like, hey, you know, go go hang out with this. I got to go to do with my parents. It was like, from an entertainment standpoint, it was the worst. But I just remember feeling when I talked to, you know, some of the people, you know, around campus and the coaching staff. And it just felt, there was just a feeling of like, this is kind of more where I belong. And, um, and the opportunity to play, too.

I mean, at that time, I think Stanford's roster was, was pretty top heavy with upperclassmen. They had some guys coming in. I think Mark Madsen was coming back from a mission. And I was like, it's pretty bloated with big guys here. So I, you know. even though the place is great, I know I can probably play right away at Notre Dame. So that's what ultimately swung it for me. So you show up at Notre Dame and Hoover's there, Lamar Justice, one of the all-time great nicknames, right, blue?

Because he's so black, he's blue. That's a great, that's a great, I don't know. Like, I still think guys would have the nickname blue. I just don't know if it would be as cool to have the nickname blue as it was then, right? Yeah. Yeah. Keith Karrowsky, who I'll never forget, this is my favorite. I actually told this story to one of my children who was wiping her nose on her shirt. So Keith Kuroski was, he was a couple years older than you, right? He's a senior my freshman year. Yeah. And Christian Brothers Academy, I'm going to say, in New Jersey?

Yep. That's right. And he was like combo guard, nutty, but the kind of nutty white kid that you're like, all right, that kid can make it because you got to be a little off to be like a white scoring guard, right? You just have to. I don't know how to explain it otherwise. But like he would go in, I remember he would go in for like a layup in a game and go around his back and lay it in just because, right? Oh, yeah.

No, my memory of my first memory of him was, so we get on. campus. And like the first day, we drive from Colorado to Notre Dame. And my dad, like, we have all my stuff in the back. He, we go up to my room. It's this, like, tiny room. And the first thing he says is, like, I've lived in worse than this. You know, he's been deployed. He's been Saudi Arabia during the first goal for it. So that's what he moves all my stuff in. He takes me over to the basketball office. And he says, okay, check in with those guys. He's like, get some gear. I got some gear. And then he's like, okay, I think, I think you're set to go.

He got in the car and then just drove back. Like, he didn't even stay a day. And so Corrali was there. And so Karachi was like, here, I'll take you. And I think there was like, you know, kids are coming back. There's all these kind of stuff going on. And he's like, let's go play one-on-one. And so we played one-on-one for like three hours.

And then he's like, okay, let's go sort of this picnic that's going on. And he's got like no shirt, like a gold necklace. He's driving like a Nissan 300 Z. and like that was that was him my memory was um he he was a baller like he would play one-on-one for hours and but he also he he wasn't he was the he wasn't he was kind of hygienically challenged right like the story i remember was and maybe this was your freshman year he broke his foot and every and when you were in the dorms at notre dame you built a loft right so you had more space on your floor.

So he was up in his loft and the bathrooms down the hall and he had a broken foot. So he had to go down the stairs and walk down the hall to take a leak and he was telling the guys and like, dude, why don't you just take a Gatorade bottle, pee in the Gatorade bottle, throw it down in the morning instead of, and you have to go in the middle of the night, like you got a broken foot, getting up, you know, running the risk of falling down, going down your little, your ladder, and then walking down the hall. And he's like, that's a great idea. So then they come to get him for a workout because he had to attend all the work.

workouts, and they look, and there's just bottles upon bottles of piss, right, along his window. That's so gross. So, but here's the story I remember. So McLeod, God rest his soul, John McLeod, he had this weird thing about, I don't know the weird thing. I mean, you know, there's things he always tucked in our chairs, right? And, but you always had to be wearing like your sweats to team meal or to or to, or to, mass or to a meeting. And I'll never forget, we were on the road.

And I can't remember exactly where it was. It was a little bit later in the year. And I'll say it was Georgetown. And we go to have like meeting, film, and dinner. And you were his roommate, or he was your roommate. And you put on your Notre Dame blue Nike sweatsuits, zipped it up, come running down. because you guys are running late,

and you sit down, you're sitting next to me, and I look on your sleeves, and there's just snot, like dried snot, all up on your sleeves, and you realize that you had Keith's jacket on. Like,

that's... Yeah, no, he was... He was definitely, like, a lot of people didn't bother the guy. What's he doing? What's he doing? What's he doing now?

I think he's high school basketball coach. I think he was outside of South Bend for a while, coach, But I would be shocked if he's just not coaching right now. I mean, basketball was the guy's whole life. And it was a shame just because he was never healthy. And if you were healthy, he had a chance to be a really good college player, I think. And just to one of those guys that weird injuries, one after the other, not related to each other,

but never had the career that could have had. Yeah, I mean, he was really, really talented guy. And I think the way basketball is going, it may actually kind of come around to him, right? Because he was kind of a positionless guy. He could score. he would he would take what what then were questionable shots now guys take a higher volume of it and he he did in fact love love the gym how did you how did you handle the losing well so you know it was right away as a freshman you know you're you're you're so worried about your own stuff

like am i am i doing well enough to play like and so the way i would describe it is just just trying to establish myself as a college basketball player that first year, you're a little bit selfish because how you're doing kind of takes Preston over the team. But it really wasn't until, you know, after, you know, I got established starting right away as a freshman, then the sophomore year was just really, really painful because that was our first year in the Big East. That was your freshman year. And we just didn't have the type.

I mean, we were a mid-major D-1 team. with the guys that I think that we had. And we were just going up against the Big East at the time, which was one of the best conferences in the country, and just loaded with talent. And so it was tough. I mean, it was just, it was hard to see what the path was to ever get better.

And, you know, at the same time, there's just always the motivation to work on your own game, and you've got to take care of yourself and get better. But that was a tough time. That's first year in the Big East. Yeah. And then, of course, I mean, I didn't help it when I got in trouble and had to leave. It doesn't help.

Help Jimmy Dillon get a right. I have a story for you. I don't know if you remember. I'm going to say, was it Matt Van Kowski? Is that who it was? We had a walk-on. Yeah, one of the walk-ons, yeah. Here's what I remember.

This is a brilliant guy, right? So, Van Kowski was a walk-on, and I'm going to say he's like, I don't know, it felt like he was like 6-6. But, you know, like I just remember he was just a big white guy, like hairy legs, you know, solidly built. Like I just, so I remember, and it's one of the cooler parts about Notre Dame and then one of the weirder stories I can share. So we had this thing like, if you said I have to study or if you said I got a tutor,

if you said I have a class, or if you said I have anything scholastically, it was, they never questioned you. They're like, just go. Like, go. You know? So, Vankowski didn't come to practice. I'm going to say for like two weeks. Maybe I'm inflating it, you know, as I've, as it's 20 years removed now.

But he didn't come to practice for like two weeks. And we used to get together. And before now they built the practice facility. We used to work out in the pit. It was an kind of auxiliary gym inside. the then Joyce Athletic and communicate the Jack where we played. And I remember like all of a sudden he's getting up shots, you know, and we're going to play.

And then like he was in layup lines. And I was like, when did you get here? He's like, ah, don't, it's like, do you think they missed me? And I honestly believe that no one knew he was gone. Like the coaches didn't know he even missed two weeks of, like, you know, he's a walk on or whatever, but to not have been. And I was just like, that was a wow. I cannot believe that a guy had missed that much practice and no one ever knew.

Yeah. No, I mean, definitely like, yeah, I mean, back then, and even at a place like Notre Dame, like the school came first. You know, you weren't, the travel was, was arranged such that you weren't missing any class kind of at the expense of, you know, rest and stuff like that. yeah a lot different than than a lot of place tell me about draft day

yeah so that was that was the 1998 draft the draft was in Vancouver at that time so it was up there with my family my girlfriend at the time I didn't really have a good idea of where I was going I thought

I had really good workouts to Milwaukee pretty a pretty good workout in Atlanta. They were drafted in kind of Milwaukee was drafted 19th, I think Atlanta was 20th or something like that. So I had a pretty good idea that I was going in that range. So end up getting picked at the 19th

at the time, it was Milwaukee. So, you know, got up on stage, put the hat on. And what happens after that, you shake the commissioner's hand and then they take you back in the hallway to do just a bunch of different, you know, series of interviews. And so I remember, I did my first one, and I'm walking to the next,

and this guy is kind of standing over the no pad and he grabs me and he nurses himself. He's a beat writer for the Sons. And he said, hey, have you, have you heard about the trait? I'm like, no, I haven't heard about it. He was like, yeah, I think that, I think that you're in a package going to Phoenix.

I'm like, wow, and at the time, I hadn't worked out from Phoenix. I didn't talk to any of their people. But that was the deal where Dirk New Whiskey was picked ninth. I was 19. We were both traded to Dallas as part of a three team trade for Robert Trailer, who I think I'm not sure where

trailer was picked, but he was kind of somewhere between that. And then I was packaged with like three other guys to Phoenix for, and, you know, I think multiple picks for Steve Nash, who at that time was a backup, but he was coming up on free agency that had kid at the time. They weren't going to be able to pay him. And so ended up making that trade. That's how I ended up in Phoenix. And so, you know, grab, get on a plane the next morning and Danny Aange wants to, like, work me out. You hadn't seen me before. And I still, and I saw last year, you know, Brian Colangelo and who was the gym at the time in Danny Aange still jokes about this. He's like, that was one of the worst workouts that I've ever been a part of is you after draft. He's like, I thought you

were going to get us all fired. And so, you know, Rob, A little bit of a rough start there. It was the lockout year. So, you know, immediately after the draft, a week later, the 1998 lockout happened. And that was the one where we missed 32 games and didn't start playing until January. So it was really a weird season to be a rookie. But, you know, pretty good memories ended up kind of breaking into the rotation toward the end of the season, played in the playoffs, and got traded to Orlando after that.

Okay. So what was it like to be like, again, this is, you didn't go, as you pointed out, you didn't grow up thinking knowing you're going to play in the NBA. Obviously, you had a great college career, your biggest player of the year. And then it became a parent you were going to play in the NBA. What was, do you remember that first, like your first game, the first time you see your Phoenix Sun's jersey with Garrity on the back? What was your first memory of playing in the NBA? Yeah, so the first memory was, I mean, I can't really. remember camp because I think camp was like two or three days long and it was you know my first

memory honestly I remember the preseason games but I remember playing in the LA policy against the clippers the first game and I had had a couple we played two preseason games against Dallas and I played pretty well I they played a lot I think I you know one game had 14 points or something like that and I'm like oh okay I can I can and I just remember like when when the games were for real it was like how am I ever going to score in this game so so it didn't score it all in the clippers game but You know, I just remember the, just like the size and the strength of these guys was just something unlike I had ever seen before. And, you know, it took, it took a long time to get adjusted to what my game really was. Because in college, I was, you know, coming off screens and shooting and posting up.

And that game, that wasn't going to work in the NBA. So I really had to figure out how I was going to play. And luckily, the first two coaches I had both, both Danny and Doc. rivers, I think, identified where I could be, you know, most effective and useful, which was kind of as a stretch guy. And so that kind of changed my game and just trying to play to that and get as good as those skills as I could. Yeah. What was Jason Kid? At that time, Jason Kid was just becoming a guy who could make a shot. But, I mean, peak of his athletic powers, 25 years old. What was Jay Kid like? Yeah. So Kid was, I mean, he was one of the best leaders that I've seen.

who didn't, who didn't talk. So he rarely, he rarely said anything. But with him, there was never, so like you know now guys, I can shoot around. There's, it's kind of loose. There was never really a moment of looseness with him. Like when he got ready to play, wherever it was practice or for his games, I mean, he was locked in and serious. And he was, he wasn't a guy, he was a guy that if you were open and it was the right

pass or the right play. He just made the pass in the play. And he just was wired that way. And he was really like he was, he's just a, he was a special guy and so competitive, but

just rare in his ability to lead like that and to bring the energy up of a team without being a guy that really talked at all. What was Googs like? Tom Googlyata. Yeah, so Googs was you know, Googs would be like a four or five today.

But, you know, one of the things that I think that, like, his athleticism was a thing that I think people look at him and he's, you know, skilled, big, strong white guy. He had such a quick second jump. So I think that's why he was always such a good rebounder, you know, and just a good nose for how to play. Like, in today's game, it's a little bit different. Like, Googs was a mid-range guy, a little bit of a. post-up guy, but he was more of a guy that caught mid-posts and would turn on face and be able to

create a shot for himself. But just a really talented, skilled guy. But, you know, you know guys like this too. One of those guys that's like not the highest energy guy in practice, you know, not the most like, like in terms of basketball IQ, I don't know how he would rate, but just in basketball instinct and scoring instinct and the nose for the ball, like he was, he was terrific. And you know who was on that team, really, the other guy that, like, in today's game, you look at him and you're like, this guy would have made, you know, $18 million a year is Cliff Robinson. Yeah. Like, Cliff Robinson was the, was, like, he's that guy who's a four three. He could guard three.

He could guard small fours. He could shoot three. He could guard on the post and then he could guard on the perimeter. Like, he was, he was a guy. He was born too soon, right? Born too soon? Yeah, no, he was too soon. And so most people, like, he would, I think back then would almost get the,

because he could guard the perimeter, you could play him at small forward. But he was a guy back then who, he wasn't quite a tweeter because he was big enough, but he wasn't like a prototypical power forward. Now he's the kind of guy that every team would want as a power forward. So that year's, you mentioned it was a lockout shortened year. And lockout shortened years have kind of sneakily, and I believe that was the first time where, And I want to say, like, didn't that ruin Sean Kemp?

Like some of these guys came back in terrible shape. And they kind of never recovered, right? Yeah, no, it was, yeah, because there was, we had a pretty good thing going on in Phoenix. Because Jake Kidd organized workouts at this health club. Like, so we were working out. We were playing pickup every day. There were a lot of guys that were there. And then there were guys that lived in Phoenix at the time, like Barclay and some of those other guys would show up and work out.

So there were good pickup things. But there were other guys that were just off the map. And you remember that exhibition game that the Players Association had where they tried to create something to make some money and get some guys paid. And some guys showed up to there like 30, 40 pounds overweight. It was like a terrible game. And you were like, oh, my gosh, what is this? What is this all about? But, yeah, that was a tough, that was a tough stretch for a lot of guys, I think.

Yeah, I think the guys that I remember, I remember Mitch Richmond really struggling. Larry Johnson, Scottie Pippin, because that was Scottie Pippin with the, he was with the Rockets. And then Sean Kemp and Vin Baker were the two who like, they never gained so much weight. And obviously, Vin had the alcohol problem as well. But they like literally never, Sean Kemp supposedly weighed like 275, which means he really weighed 300. Like he just never, Mitch Richmond, Sean Kemp, Vin Baker never recovered from the lockout. Yeah, and that was a year, too, where you kind of hear about everything today of kind of managing players' workloads and trying to spread the schedule out. I think we played like 13 back-to-backs here this year in Detroit, which is just like such a low number.

That was a game, during the lockout, to get all those games in, but to get 50 games in between January and the 1st and May, they played three in a row, and there were a couple times where we played six and seven nights. It was just like completely insane. So you go to Orlando, what was it like to go to be trade? You know, now a sudden you were traded before you ever got to the NBA,

but now you're traded in your career. What's that like to, you know, pick everything up and now you're in Orlando? Yeah, so that was like the best thing that could have happened for my career there. So Orlando at the time, that was the original tank job. Like John Gabriel, that was the team of the end of the Shaq, Penny, Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott. So, you know, the prior two years, you know, Shaq had left in 96, I believe.

And they were just, it was at the end of it. I think Penny was a little bit disgruntled. So they were trading everyone away. Nick got traded to Sacramento. I was in the trade with Danny Manning and, you know, again, like, you know, another first or multiple firsts for Penny Hardaway. And their plan that year was, was the original tank job. Like, they were going to get rookie guys kind of cast off type guys, cheap contracts,

get a ton of cap space for the 2000 season and not really care about winning. Now, the problem with that was they had Doc Rivers as a first year coach who, you just saw it again this year. Like he's his best, his best attributes just getting guys to believe in themselves and motivating them. And we ended up having, we ended up going 41 and 41 to miss the playoffs by one game. One of the guys,

like the main reason of that was Ben Wallace. Like Ben Wallace, they got Ben Wallace in a trade from Washington. And Ben Wallace was just like they threw Ben Wallace into a trade and ended up in Orlando. I don't think anyone in Orlando even, you know, knew that he was going to play there. and we had, we, we just had a bunch of guys that played really hard together.

Darrell Armstrong, Mike Miller was a rookie. We had Monty Williams, who played small forward, John Amici, who just had a terrific year as a starting center. I actually used a back of Kennedy back to Ben Wallace. And so we just put up, put these lineups together. Harparing was there, he was a little bit hurt. Doc just mixed and matched all these different lineups and ended up doing, doing much, much, better than anyone projected. And to this day, it's still my favorite season in the NBA just because of the guy and

the coaching staff and everyone who was a part of that. And the low expectations, right? Like, low expectations, just playing, having fun. Hey, Ron Mercer was on that team. And while he put up some numbers at various times in his career, I mean, here's a guy who was a top five high school American and all American in Kentucky. and he never really became, was it as simple as he couldn't shoot? Like he was never a good enough shooter to be a two guard?

He was in the NBA? Well, at that time, he was a good, for that time, he was always a pretty good score. And Ron Mercer came mid-season in a trade. So we started off this season with Perik Abdul Wahad and Chris Gatling. Those guys were traded to Denver, and that's how Ron and actually Chaunce was part of that trade, too, all got them. But, yeah, Ron, if you look at Ron's career, I mean, Ron was a talented, talented score. But never a three-point shooter. He was a mid-range guy.

Like, he was like the floppy guy. Like, you bring him off screens, mid-range, catch and shoot jump shots. That's what he was able to do. But not a, you know, Ron was a guy that was just, he was just, you put him in the game, you do a thing, but he wasn't really an outgoing guy. But they ended up having, you know, a pretty good career. I mean, I think, you know, average over double figures for his career. And, you know, he was out of the league.

I'm looking out of the league, I think, before he was 30. But, yeah, just the guy who was, you know, good score, but maybe just didn't do enough other things to hang his hat on. So the next year you guys got Tracy McGrady and Grant Hill. Obviously, Grant was injured. What was Tracy McGrady like? Yeah, so Tracy McGrady was just, such a special play. And I think, you know, people who remember the NBA during that time,

obviously, like, he competed for multiple scoring championships. But, and you ask anyone that played with him or coached him, you know, Jack Van Gundy says it's all the time to. Tracy McGready was one of the best passers there was. And he was so effective, because he could do it different ways. So he could, you could put him in pick and roll. And he developed a good enough shot where you had to, you had to go. over the top on him. If you tried to trap him, he was big enough where he could pick you apart up on those kind of traps. And then the other thing, if you put a smaller guy on him, and I remember teams used to do this, like Philly would do this. They put Eric Snow on him,

just to, you know, Eric Snow, tough guy, rough him up. He would take you down on the post and he would make plays out of the post. Like, you'd have to double team him. And so he made my career there. Like, once he got there and you were in the game, game with him. It was just get your spacing right out of double teams and shoot three. And he was going to get you the ball. So he was, he was another one. I mean, he was, for me, I think he was the best player that I had ever, that that I ever played with in the NBA. I mean, you know, it was a shame that those teams just weren't strong enough where he got that label of, you know, never making it out of the first round of the playoffs. And I, I don't think he did that

until later in his career when he was with San Antonio. But, you know, he was, why? But I mean, like, look, that would be my criticism would be like, how can you be viewed as this all-time great? And like, I get it. Like any year you have bad luck. And the series were shorter back then, and they had some injuries and, you know, Grant was never really right physically.

But how can you never get out of the playoffs? I mean, first round. We're not talking about championship. We're talking about first round. Yeah. Well, I mean, a lot of times, like I was your starting power forward. So it wasn't like we had the strongest teams in the world. But it would have been, like, look, it would have been totally different if Grant Hill were healthy.

Like, those two guys together, like, that it would have been different. Like, McGrady was carrying a T. And every year was, like, trying to patch it together around him with different bigs and different, you know, so he never, he was kind of just the alone guy on those teams. But what was Grant? Your point taken. Your point is well taken. Like, you know, if he was that good, why not? But you look at what he did.

It was hard to argue that he could have done more. What was Grant Hill like? So Grant Hill was a guy who had like a special feel for the game. You know, just a terrific team had a terrific guy to be around. He very kind of mature in his outlook, but just you just never with us. He just never got to see. What also knew that he was able to do, like, when he left and got healthy with Phoenix, it's him at full strength and without the thought in the back of his mind of either,

you know, I'm not fully right or, you know, the time of what he was right, how long is this going to last? But we spent a lot of time together. There's a season where I was out for most of the season rehabbing my knee, and, you know, we spent a lot of time together talking about life and business and different things and really just an outstanding guy. He is an amazing guy. I've spent some time with him.

And he also is a guy who hasn't always let a lot of people in, you know, or maybe in the media he doesn't, he doesn't project a way in which he allows people in. Because once you get to know the real Grant Hill, you're like, this guy's amazing. I really like him. You know, it's not that far, it's not far away from what the image is. You know, it's not like he's one person and then a different person with the real Grand Hill. I'm just saying, like, he is one of the guys that once you open up the hood, you're like, I really like Grant Hill. I like him.

I almost wish he would show people like what a real, normal, what a real dude he is. Yeah. This is an important one because. Great storyteller, great. And we loved eating too. Love good restaurants. So he's a fun guy, but you're right. Like very conscious of, you know, what he says around people that he's not close with and protective of, you know, his privacy.

This is an important one because your life now with the Pistons is as an evaluator, right? Part of what you do. There's a lot of things you do, but is that how. like Reese Gaines was a massive miss. Right? Okay. So, Reese Gaines is drafted out of Louisville in 2003.

And, I mean, you know, here's a lottery pick, six, six point guard. And, I mean,

you guys couldn't get rid of him soon enough. When did you know he didn't have it? Yeah, gosh, that's, I would, I would probably be making it up if I, if I told you,

I had like a distinct, memory of when he wasn't going to make it. So I just don't know. I mean, I just think that there was, this is not about Reese, but just kind of in general, you can tell pretty early on just the level of confidence that a player has. And so aside from the top 50 or 100 players in the NBA, there's not a ton of separation really in talent,

kind of with that next, with that, you know, bottom two or 300, if you said, but what there is a separation of is like just kind of an innate belief in yourself and that you belong and you can do it. And I think that that wasn't there for him. And I think that a little bit probably had to do with, I think, the idea was, you know, could he play point guard and just didn't have the point guard skills? And, you know, if the idea, there's no quicker way with anyone to, like, destroy their confidence, then thinking you can make someone into a point guard. and then putting them against NBA point guards and then that's not working right away. So I think that that just that had a lot to do with his situation, I think.

Sean Respert had that too. Sean Resper had that too. Sean Resper was never a point guard. And, you know, Eric Snow was his point guard of Michigan State. And I know there's some health stuff too. But, you know, it's interesting. You know, you ask a guy to do some he's never done before and or never done at that level against,

you're asking guys to do. something against a ridiculous level of competition, usually less minutes than they've ever had, and the all of a sudden they have to think, and they're just kind of all locked up. When did you become super involved in the Players Association? I became involved. So my first couple of years in Orlando, I was a player rep. So everything has a player rep. You know, you go to the meetings and kind of, or you take the information back to your team.

and I think by my third year in the league, there was a position on the executive committee that was opened up and ran for that at one of the meetings and got elected. And then so that really big start of my involvement because when you're a member of the executive committee, it's much more involved. I mean, you're doing a lot of conference calls and meetings

and kind of getting ready for collective bargaining. So it was around that time, my second or third year, and staying involved with it throughout my whole career. It was something that I enjoyed, kind of learning about how, how that aspect of the business worked and met a lot of good people and, like, really great learning experiences about how the NDA actually worked as a business. So is it fair to say, like, I always reference who would know better about the cap than a guy who basically wrote this kind of new cap? Is that a fair assessment of your level of knowledge over how this particular salary cap works?

Well, I mean, I think that there's other people that have spent much, much more time kind of digging into the nuances than me. So I wouldn't call myself kind of the top. I wouldn't call myself a lead in terms of knowing the count. But the one thing that I think I do have is that just the context of why some of the these rules are the way that they are. Because the way that the CBA is written, it's not like there's some logical plan for why the rules are the way they are. A lot of it is just based on precedents that have evolved over 30 years, 40 years, starting with, you know, the biggest change was in, you know, 1998 when there was that lockout and then another change in 2005 and 2010 and then

recently. So I think that's, you know, knowing, being able to kind of recall. all rules and why the way things are just because I had the context of why they were there in the first place, I think, is something that's been really valuable. And it was really valuable about that time. What's the one thing about the salary cap that most fans don't realize? Well, I think that it's, the one thing that I think is just really hard is kind of this time a year when it's free agency is just figuring out what teams actually have to work with. because a lot of that information is in public,

and there are little ways to operate both as a team above and below the cap and just different ways that you have to do business in those cases. So that's probably the hardest thing is right now when you're seeing kind of all this movement happen, and knowing, okay, can a team still sign this guy or that guy, and they can't or they can't, just knowing how a team is getting at the room below the cap they're trying to operate with, I think is the hardest thing to understand for most fans. You finished in 2008, and you decide to, you're only 31 years old, right? And you're never really the same after the knee.

You decide to go, right then you decided to go get your MBA, or what was the process like of deciding to get your MBA from Duke? Yeah, so I thought about it. I had friends who were, you know, I went to school with it, had gone to business school. And to me, it seemed like a good transition into whatever was nuts. But I didn't know it was next. So business school seemed like a good way to kind of organize that project of kind of moving on to the next thing.

So I remember I retired in 2008. You know, physically I knew I was done. It was hard for me to put in the work that I needed to put in just to be the level where I could compete with guys and be a useful player. So I remember I retired and had been studying for the G-MAT, you know, for the summer. So it took that. and then took a year off and applied to a couple different schools and ended up getting into Duke, which worked out really well because of the proximity to Orlando where I was living at the time. And just went there not really with a plan of what I wanted to do, but just kind of use that time as a time to learn and develop some relationships and kind of see what else was out there.

So, okay, but go back though, your year off, what did you do? No, it was great. I worked out a ton. I played golf. You know, traveled around, did a lot of stuff. You know, it was the first year of just not really doing anything. But I seemed to find time to fill my time. But, yeah, I mean, living in Orlando, I lived in Bay Hill.

So I was at a golf cart that I could just drive to the course and play whenever I want. So I was the best I ever was at golf during that year. I'll say that. Okay. So you get done at Duke. And was it right then that, like, I've been told. that before you took the Pistons job, you'd like offered up to Columbia like, hey, I'll come be your third assistant. I just want to, I just want to learn about coaching. Is that accurate?

Well, no, I was working after business school. Oh, that's right. You went to, you went and you worked in the financial district, right? Yeah, yeah. So I, I went, I interned for a year at a headspin called Bridgewater Associates. And then they offered me a full-time job after my internship. So right after business school in 2009, moved up. Connecticut with my family, worked there for three years. And it was at that time, I had a friend

whose son was like junior high school. He was going to play on an AU team. My friend's like, hey, can you help my, help this team out a little bit? So I started coaching with another guy this team. And it was like a mid-level team, like, you know, some D2 guys, like maybe one D1 guy. But I really enjoyed it. And I'm like, man, I really do miss basketball. I mean, like, The career was stimulating, as interesting, was hard challenge, but it wasn't basketball. And so I think that time away from the game was good, but it allowed me to kind of, you know, shake the player off and try to try to be involved in the game a different way. And so I was, I was like, God, I really enjoy, I really enjoy this coaching stuff.

And so, you know, I talk to different people about different things. You know, I'm so lucky the advice that I got, though, like, after, being back in the game now and like looking at the coach's lives and then looking at the life of a front office person. It's not that like this job goes on year round, but I would have been a terrible coach. Wait, wait, isn't Bridgewater, isn't that what billions is based upon? I think it's billions is based upon 0.72, which is formerly SACC. But I think that there's elements of kind of every, every cliche hedge fund trait that are wrapped in. to that.

But I, because I had a neighbor when I was in Connecticut that worked at Bridgewater, and he, I think he told me, isn't there some policy where, like, everything is shared, like every email, everyone knows about every email in the company or something like that. Is that accurate? Yeah, it's a unique place. Every meeting is recorded, and you have access to every, like, that meeting recordings are shared. And, yeah, the whole idea is, like, the way you get better just by. by being kind of radically transparent and honest with each other.

And it's a really tough place when you have that kind of environment. But it's also a place where it's, you know, that it kind of drives the best out of you. So you get to the NBA and you get to the Pistons. And you guys have, the Blake Griffin trade, how long before it was done did you know it was done? Well, I mean, it was not up until kind of we agreed upon terms. I mean, I think the time that we started talking about it until it was done.

I mean, it wasn't a crazy, a long amount of time. But like, but like, how does it, how does it, how does it, how does it, like, maybe here's a better question. How does it start, right? Did Stan walk in one day and go like, hey, I want Blake Griffin? How did that happen? Well, no, I remember how it happened is Jeff Bauer, who is during the season, we were the set up at the time with, you know, Stan was head question president. Jeff Bauer was a gym. So on a day-to-day basketball app on the basis,

Jeff Bauer was kind of the one taking calls from everyone in making calls. And not, I just remember one day, kind of it was in January, kind of called everyone together and said, hey, is this something that we would consider doing? And it was everyone, like, whoa. Like, this is, it was never something of like, okay, let's develop a plan to see if we could go get. late, but this is how a lot of these type of situations happen is that, you know, there's a

player that becomes available that can really, you know, change things for you that maybe otherwise wasn't. And you just really have to think, like, how will this work? And so, you know, Jeff, it was the one that negotiated, did the most of negotiating there. And yeah, it was, it was a big, it was a big departure from kind of what the team was at the time. And a lot of questions about if it would really work that ended up, you know, ended up making that deal. And I'll tell you what, last year, like, he was unreal with what he was able to do. So for people who don't watch Blake on a daily basis, as a former player, front office executive, what is something about Blake Griffin that people should know they don't know?

By far, it is his level of preparation that goes into getting ready to play every day. And, you know, I know people have written about the money that that LeBron spends on getting ready. And, you know, no doubt that he does that. But Blake, and I'm not familiar with kind of the whole routine that LeBron does, but it's clear like his whole life is about being ready to play. Blake, to me, is right up there with him. And just how in tune he is with every aspect of performance from his diet to his, you know, movement prep before he goes to practice, his routine mentally before he gets ready for the game.

to his lifestyle, you know, outside of the game during the season. It's, you know, the guy is the ultimate pro and warrior from what I've seen in the last year and a half that he's been around. You're, you know, look, you've been mentioned for GM jobs. And you're a process of trying to, you know, complete the task of fixing this thing in Detroit. And there's all this kind of player movement. How do you balance out being happy, doing your job and looking forward with the next thing, to have your own shop to run. Yeah, so the way that you do that, in my opinion,

is that you just do your job right now. Like there's, and I believe this too. I mean, I think in the NBA is such a desirable business to be and then to work, and if you're a basketball person. So there's tons and tons of people wanting to get in. There's tons and tons of people wanting to move up from the job they have to, you know, bigger jobs or higher profile. job. And really, you can

sniff people that are out for, you know, for themselves in a minute. And so I never wanted to be a personal life. So I really do believe it. There is no balance to me. It's, you know, the only job right now is, you know, working together with Siphansky and Arn-Talem and Malik Rose and those, Coach Casey and those guys to make this team

good. And if you do that, then the opportunities present themselves. But to do it another way, it's just really hard for me because it's just hard for me to imagine someone who would be all in when you're always kind of on the lookout for what's the next step of my career. All right. The last thing, you've got to go and I've got to go. Like a minute.

Will we ever get back? Like the big guy, like Andre Drummond, obviously, because he can run and finish and defend the rim, but the game has become so perimeter oriented. and you have to be able to switch and guard ball screens differently. Will it ever go back? Will we ever go back to where throwing it into the post is a big part of a half-court offense? No, no, you will not.

The math just doesn't work. When you look at the offense that's created by having a primary score as a low post player, no. I mean, look like post-ups, still you need them. I mean, it's a part of being able to penetrate the paint and get the ball, so I didn't create. But the post up to me is now to create other shots. Right.

Right. It's amazing, right? Yeah, now it's the post is to sell the defense so that you can create those jump shots. It's really remarkable how it's changed. Pat, I can't tell you how appreciative I am of your time, especially during this moratorium. And, dude, I look forward to seeing what's next for the Pistons in the future. Thanks, man. Thanks, Doug.

It was a pleasure talking you too. All right, so we'll wait on Kauai. I don't love what the 76ers are doing. I do love that Jimmy Butler's not there. And as much as I think the world of Josh Richardson and Al Horford, I don't know if it fits totally what they need. But boy, are they athletic. They can get after you?

They can defend multiple positions? My question still is, can they make shots? And can Jolla be and stay healthy? Can Ben Simmons make a jump shot? I think the Boston Celtics got worse in terms of talent. Kyrie is more talented than Kemba. Kemp is also older. but in terms of chemistry,

I would think that Kemba has a chance to be better than than Kyrie was. And kind of a three-headed monster inside instead of one starter and Al Horford, a fascinating way for Danny Angel and Brad Stevens to attack the problem. Wouldn't stun me if the Celtics and the Bucks were facing off deeper in the playoffs next year. Most people know I'd never been a DeAngel Russell guy, but the thing that's weird is, are the warriors going to go? to a lot of ball screens because he's the number one or number two ball screen guy in the NBA.

So look, I like what Utah has done. The idea of them winning a championship seems a bit far-fetched, but not crazy. We haven't talked at all about Denver. They're basically kind of running it back from last year, which was fun. Portland looks like they got more athletic at the rim. And they're very, you know, they're hoping, you know, there's no golden state. why not us? I know they got to the Western Conference finals,

but part of it was the road to get there. I'm not convinced that Oklahoma City stands pat, but even if they do stand pat, I think Russell Westbrook will shoot better, Paul George healthier. They may be a sneaky team that could make a run next year because they still have two elite stars, which brings us to the Lakers,

who we've all kind of handed some sort of mythical trophy to the Lakers if they don't get Kauai Leonard, And though LeBron James is great and Anthony Davis is great, like, is their roster better than the Oklahoma City Thunder? No. Isn't it a guards game? Like, I don't know. I'm fascinated by this thing. But most fascinated by where Kauai Leonard chooses to play next season.

We got lots of college basketball stuff coming up. We got some great interviews over the summer. Make sure you tell a friend. You download, you subscribe, you rate. You'll hear all about some of your favorite. Some of your favorite broadcasters. Some of the best stories in all of basketball are right here. My thanks to you to listening to All Ball.

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This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where sports slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athlete's. themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Sidell. help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref.

My mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, right. My mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Miss Parker.

Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Will Ferrell's Big Money Players and IHeart Podcast presents soccer moms. So I'm Leanne. Yeah. This is my best friend, Janet. Hey. And we have been joined at the hips since high school. Absolutely.

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