The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Gottlieb - All Ball - Final Four final thoughts; Tony Bennett's title winning adjustments; Michigan St. Associate HC Dane Fife on Sparty's Final Four run

Episode Date: April 13, 2019

This week, Gottlieb gives his final thoughts on the Final Four, how Tony Bennett adapted to win a title, and is joined by Michigan State Assistant Head Coach Dane Fife to discuss playing for Bob Knight, Coaching under Izzo, how Sparty's deep tourney run came together, and what didn't break their way against Texas Tech. Subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headlines. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart women's sports. I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever

reported on, a Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman. Multimillion dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last. Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Remember all those big dreams used to have and then life made other plans? With a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van, it's time to bring those dreams back. Start your own business or commit to van life with a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van. Now, you could win the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter mode four-by-four that we have, The Dan Patrick's show Ultimate Camping Rigs Sweepstakes.

To enter, get official rules. Visit Danpatrick.com or Fox SportsRadio.com. Have to do it by February 2nd for your chance to win. Using your Aspiration Zero credit card helps fight climate change. It's true. See, Aspiration Zero plants a tree each time you make a purchase. And tree planting is one of the most effective ways to combat global warming. Track your progress in the app and earn 1% cash back each month you reach Carbon Zero.

Aspiration Zero, one card, zero carbon footprint. Learn more at aspiration.com. The Aspiration Zero MasterCard is issued by Beneficial State Bank, pursuant to licensed by MasterC International Incorporated. Beneficial State Bank member FDIC 2021. Whether you rent or own, Geico makes it easy to bundle home and car insurance. Go to geico.com today. Welcome into the All Ball podcast.

I'm Doug Gottlieb. And remember, you can listen to Doug Gottlieb show every afternoon, 3 to 6 Eastern Time, 123 Pacific. XM, Sirius, 203 and 217. Don't ask me which one you can find it. We're on the same channel as Dan Patrick on SiriusXM. And of course, you can go to Foxportradio.com. You can also download the Doug Gottlieb show daily on iTunes,

wherever you downloaded this podcast. Remember to, what is it, to download, subscribe, and to rate our podcast because I don't think it helps me financially, but it helps my podcast ratings or whatever. And the downloads have been great. Listen, I'll leave the Final Four with this. There were 76,602 people. That was great basketball.

Four amazing stories. I don't know how Auburn got to where they should have gone to the national championship without Chuma Kiki, but they probably should have, right? Virginia, who's the national champion coming from losing to Maryland, Baltimore County, To winning an national championship? Amazing. And then the way in which they won their last three games. Michigan State losing Josh Langford, losing two pros.

Heck Nick Ward getting hurt. And then winning the Big Ten, the Big Ten tournament, beating Duke, going to a final four. And coming back and having a ball in the air down three chance to tie the game late, incredible. And then Texas Tech, who lost four starters. And like, I think the world of Chris Beard. I would only say this with Chris Beard, if I could make one change, I would have taken out O'Diase after he made the free throw to put him up three. I know they switched five all year long, but he gets beat.

And then I don't know why Culver, you know, leaves the best player on the floor in the corner, open for a jump shot instead of giving up the easy two. They would have had a one-point lead. But they're college kids. This happens. And I thought ultimately it cost. them. Obviously, there were some calls that went the way of Virginia. I also, I'm going to play for you something that you might find interesting.

This was Tony Bennett on my radio show talking about a conversation he and I had after the college basketball season last year when they lost to Maryland, Baltimore County. You bring up Key and he did have a huge championship game, but I also think it speaks to you and your ability to read the game on the fly because Kihei struggled be, you know, a little bit with their size, with their length. And really, they're just older guys, right? I mean, he's a kid. They're grown men.

And I thought you made, and they kind of changed their lineup. They went to a little bit of a small ball lineup, and it caused you to change. Was that part of your plan to play key that much in the championship game, or is that something you felt as the game went on? I felt that as the game went on. And, Doug, I'm going to give you some credit. You and I had a conversation. You know, we go back so many years, you know,

our fathers were both, you know, legendary coaches who've poured so much into us. And after last year's UMBC game, you know, you and I talk, I can't remember if we did an interview or not, but you talk, and you challenged me and encouraged me that, you know, obviously like everyone would grow from this game, but, you know, can you find ways when the tournament comes to play differently? Even through the year, try different things, whether it's offensively or defensively or lineup-wise. And I remember that conversation, and I knew we had to do that because, you know, obviously we were good last year, and DeAndre Hunter allowed us to play small. And then when DeAndre got hurt in the NCAA tournament, before that, we couldn't, we didn't have that four-guard lineup.

Well, this year, when Braxton and Key got eligible, I knew at times we're going to be able to play Key as a five and Dre as a four or vice versa, and a real small lineup. And then against Purdue, we needed to go big with salt and Mamadie. So you kind of challenge me. We added some things, and I really tried to think hard about that. And I thought in tournament runs, you need to be able to have the versatility to mix things up offensively or defensively. We used the offense against Texas Tech in the championship game that we hadn't hardly used all year because they ran a different kind of defense with the way they forced them aside and switched.

And so you have to have those things ready in those situations. So, you know, look, I don't want to get into fouls. By the time you download this podcast, you probably forgot about the blow-by-bole, the play-by-play of different things. I will say this. And I'm sure I'm annoying to a lot of people

who I'm friends with in college basketball. I text back and forth with, ironically, all four of these teams. I worked a little bit for Bruce Pearl. I know Stephen really well. Dane Fife, who's going to be our guest and coaches. I communicate with them often throughout the season. And Tony Bennett don't communicate as much with, but we go way, way back.

My dad, of course, was the coach at UW Milwaukee. His dad's a Wisconsin legend. He's always been super kind to me. At some point, I'll have him on this pod, and we'll talk about how Clay Thompson became a Washington State Cougar. Oh, and then Chris Beard has two former Oklahoma State assistant coaches and head coach, Sean Sutton on the staff, and I've become pretty close with Coach Beard as well. So I know all of these guys.

And so I'm probably annoying to them in that I do text them and call them and give you, I don't know, it's not giving my two cents. Sometimes another set of eyes is valuable. And I always tell them, like, hey, listen, if I don't, if I don't know what I'm talking about, fine. But what I told Tony Bennett, what I encourage Tony Bennett to do, I was like, look, I think your style of play is fine. I think you're going to get to a fun of four.

I think you got a chance to win a national championship. But I think your percentage chances increase. if you continue to add to your offensive repertoire. Remember, here's a guy who played overseas. Here's the guy's playing the NBA. It's not for lack of knowledge. It's just you can't simply depend on blocker mover and not have other tricks in the bag.

They went to some ball screen continuity this year. They've put in more NBA sets. Of course, I think most of the college basketball world loves one of their elevator plays that they ran. But more than anything, I encourage Tim, and this is just a general philosophy I have in life, but especially in sports, which is, hey, the goal of a team when they're preparing for you is to make you play left-handed, make you do something that you might be uncomfortable doing.

And oftentimes coaches will fall back on, well, you know, it's just a bad matchup for us. It's just a bad matchup. That's what it was. We lost because it was a bad matchup. And that's reasonable. Sometimes there's certain styles, certain teams where you just don't match up, well, against, you know? You just got limitations based upon your personnel.

That's going to happen. On the other hand, I remember I was covering, I don't want to tell you the team's name, but I was covering a team this year. And at the end of a game, they ran a play for a shooter, for a left-handed shooter. And he came off of a, it's one of those plays, I call it the nail. When you drive to the base line, instead of throwing the hammer, you come back behind you, and the shooter from the top of the key comes to shoot the basketball. Well, they ran that play, and left-handed player shot fakes,

and even though to go to the right was open, he wanted to come back to a strong left-hand. He went back to the defense. It wasn't as open. They lose the game. And so when I talked with coaches afterwards, I was like, hey, just question, why didn't you run that to the other side of the court? And they're like, why?

I was like, well, this particular player is left-handed. He likes curling off the screen, you know, moving to his left. And then if he shot fakes, he likes one dribble to his left. That's a, that's an 80% shot for him. He's like, well, we, we had never had that lineup in that position of a game to run that play. And I thought to myself, well, whose fault is that? Right. And again, this is the general philosophy I have, which is like, especially a coach like,

so this is what I told, told, I, this sounds really arrogant. I didn't win him a national championship. I didn't tell him anything profound that he probably didn't already know and challenge himself. But this is a thought that I have, which is, you know, look, challenge yourself to sometimes create artificial adversity. Take a look at a different lineup. Take a look at guys at different spots, not just in practice, not just in scrimmages, not just in exhibition games, but in real games. Take a legit look at a small lineup. Take a legit look at a big lineup.

Throw three point guards out there at once. press what does it all look like because you you don't know in a one and done scenario or playing for your league championship how somebody's going to try and make you play or what type of matchup may ultimately expose what you normally want to do and if you don't have a second gear or a third gear or a you know a different if you don't have that then what you do can become stale and people spend all year figuring out whoa What do you do and how do we do it? How do we, they say, how do we stop them from scoring and how do we score against them?

You know, I understand the pragmatism to, hey, listen, I just want to win this game. And I win this game. But sometimes you got to play the long game. You got to develop a bench. You got to develop a small lineup. You got to develop a big lineup. You got to develop a pressing lineup. You got to develop a, what do we do against the zone?

And what do we do when we can't do that against the zone? Because my, you know, my best shooter or my guy who's best in the high post, he's in foul, or he's sick or he broke a pinky finger or whatever. And so, yeah, I encouraged him to run some more ball screen stuff because like Dane Fife is going to tell us, kids grow up learning to play off ball screens and yet we're retraining them when they get to college to teach him how to play motion game. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

Highlights are trending. Opinions are flying. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversy. and the stories behind the headlines.

We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down,

give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slica Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host,

and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch life becomes about wins and losses steve burns dustin ross because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid because that's two different intentions bro absolutely and that that's two different levels of trust

i want you to just really be a good person join me kear gains is we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hardway. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen kingdom on earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back. Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets. meeting the president of Turkey.

I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across. When Jacob met Levant, this went to a billion dollar fraud. But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me?

Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges

that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WMBA standout Kate Martin and rising hockey star Layla Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't belong. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it.

An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladeki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world, Like, I can do anything.

I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. At some of these schools, you've got to sometimes play with some of their strengths. Tony did that. But I would readily admit I'm super annoying as a fan and a friend and a basketball guy to so many of these coaches.

and I text them suggestions and things that I think, and we have long conversations. And generally it's to continue to watch and evolve. And yeah, you always have your base. You always have your core ethics. You always have your offense. You always have your defense. But there are going to be times in which you've got to change.

I believe Bo Ryan would have won a national championship had he had a different way of playing the ball screen against Tias Jones and Duke. But they always kind of flat hedged and sunk. and Tyos Jones hit jump shot after jump shot after jump shot. And people can tell me, well, it's the officiating with Duke. Like, no, it wasn't. Tyos Jones just made shots.

Because Wisconsin played true packline defense. And unlike Virginia, Virginia plays packline principles, but they hard hedge ball screens. So that was my conversation with Tony Bennett. And you can hear that conversation in its entirety if you download it, part of the Doug Gottlieb show. Beaver Sportsbook wants to invite you to discover the complete sports. betting experience. The foundation of that experience is a massive number of betting options on nearly every regulated sporting event around the world. Add on top of that live streaming of sports every day. There's almost always a live match to

watch on BetRivers Sportsbook right in your phone. BetRivers features top-tier customer service, ready to answer your questions any time day or night. Plus, they have this unique rush pay system, and BetRivers Sportsbook can authorize most withdrawal requests instantly. Customer satisfaction is always their number one priority, and Bet Rivers will match your first deposit up to $250. Now, unlike some other sports books, BetRivers only requires a one-time pay-through to turn bonuses into cash. So you're going to experience the difference.

Just go to bettrivers.com. You'll see it for yourself. You must be 21. It must be President Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, or Pennsylvania to play. You had a gambling problem called 1-800 gambler. Remember, BetR-R-R-R-S-B-R-I-V-E-R-S-com. Hey, All-B-B-B-B-B-R-B-E-R-S-D-K. Two of three men experience some form of hair loss by the time you're 35.

And it's one of those deals where you're like, what do I do? How do I avoid this thing? Is it smart? Don't be a statistic. If you're a little bald or a lot bald, fix it in a simple stress-free way. Try Keeps. What you do is a virtual doctor consult at keeps.com. And then the medications are delivered straight to your door.

Slow costs with treatment starting at just $10 a month for FDA-approved medications and they can prevent hair loss. Keeps is more five-star reviews than any of its competitors. And don't walk around with pattern baldness. We all know it's not cool. It just doesn't feel right. Prevention is, in fact, the key. So if you're ready to stop messing around, you got a new year, a new energy towards fixing the little things like hair loss,

you want to prevent hair loss, go to k-e-e-ps.com slash all-ball. You get your first month of treatment free. That's k-e-e-e-ps.com. Keeps.com slash all-ball. There's a recipe for getting your car running just right. And whatever you're cooking up in the garage, you'll find what you need at eBay Motors.com. They have over 122 million car parts and accessories in stock,

all at the right prices. And that can help you turn your ride into something really tasty. The parts you need are just to click away at eBay motors.com. Let's ride. All right, let's get to our guest of the week. His name's Dame Fife. He's longtime assistant in Michigan. State. It's also a dear friend of mine.

It was a tremendous player. Dad was a coach. Dad is a coach. And I just think his story is a really, really interesting one. And it kind of tells the story a little bit about Michigan State basketball this year. Okay, so let's start. I always love to do this.

You grew up playing basketball where? Wow. Like, did you have a park? There was a gym. Like, your first basketball memory is where? Clarkston High School. gym. My dad was a high school coach, and I just go to practice every day. I shoot on the side all day. Okay, so did the side hoops have fan backboards?

Did they have wood backboards or regular glass backboards? I grew up on glass backboards. That's a nice gym right there to have side backboards that are nice glass square backboards. What would, uh, you, I, you, I, you know, I, you, Your dad, obviously, a longtime coach. I mean, you even have a kid. He plays for you now, who played for your dad. What's he like?

My dad? Yeah, as a coach. Well, he's nuts. He grew up in the post-World War II era where the heroes were Patton, Ike Eisenhower, you know, the armies and the navies, got a lot of good athletes,

and so he was his favorite coach was probably at the time coach Knight, Coach Bob Knight and so I wouldn't say he was he didn't use

a lot of foul language or really yelling at people's faces but he was very structured, very organized and he believed in playing with maximum effort every second you're out on the court. He always told me if I don't care what you play, I think he did care.

But if you're going to play, you're going to do it your best, whether it's checkers or basketball. And he held me to that and my brothers. Now, your brother, Dugan, just so you know, he not only, he has a better name than you. Such a good name that, that, one, it's memorable, right? And he played at Michigan. And, you know, growing up Doug, and Doug was like, you know, like the negative nicknames were like, Doug Slug or Doug the little bug. And I was like, no, no, no, call me Dugan.

Like there was a time when I was like, actually it's more Dugan, I go by Dugan. They're like, no, no, that's Dugan Fife. You're not, you're not Dugan. Wow. What's it like to have it? Like, was he a nice big, my big brother, Greg, who's an assistant coach Oregon State,

um, uh, he was, he was, he would vacillate between being an awesome big brother and a terrible big brother. Uh, I think sometimes that was the friends that he would keep, but like,

hey, we're going to go meet at Jordan Elmentry and shoot hoops, meet us there, and then I'd go there and there'd literally be nobody there, right, just to get rid of me, or lock me out of the house, pants me when we were in our friends pool

and throw my shorts up on the roof and then invite other people over. So what was your big brother like? Rotten. And because I'm sure there's young people listening, I would say that probably until Dugan went off to college, he was six years older than I was. He was probably the worst big brother that a little brother could have. And I was the baby, Jeremy, who we're all three years apart, so Jeremy's the middle child.

But Dugan was the worst big brother up until about his 19th birthday. even then he came home and during mid-season in his freshman year at Michigan and we were out shoveling off the basketball court in our backyard. It was just a small court. We shoveled it off

and I hit him in the lip on accident, playing him one-on-one, and he pushed me down and rub my face in the snow. And I was probably about 13 at the time, but there wasn't a day that I didn't plan to somehow

make Dugan disappear. in my youth. It's awesome. If Coach Knight was your dad's hero, and it's interesting because I don't know if you know this, so my dad was a walk-on to Ohio State, a JV player, during the same era when Bob Knight was there, and they were kind of on-again, off-again friends,

but he also looked up to Coach Knight, and although Coach Knight, I don't know if he didn't really recruit me, It wasn't really, my dad never wanted me to play for him, not because of how he was, but more because of how he played. Like, that wasn't. Right. But why didn't Dugan go play for him? Well, Dugan, my dad played at Michigan.

He was with Rudy Tomjanovitch and just after Cazzy Russell. But my dad played at Michigan. And my dad played pro baseball with the twins and then came back and was an assistant at Michigan. ironically, he was on the bench when Michigan lost Indiana in the 76 national championship. And so when Dugan was young, Dugan was born in 74, he experienced Michigan basketball up close and personal. And so when he was young, four, five, six years old, until my dad stopped coaching at Michigan,

and he was, those, those were his heroes. So, you know, that was ingrained in him when he was really young, and we just, we always went to Michigan football games, Michigan basketball games. My dad was good friends with Bill Frieder. And so I think it was just a foregone conclusion that Dugan was going to go to Michigan. And there was never a doubt on anybody else,

with exception to maybe Michigan State, maybe Stanford. I don't think that Indiana recruited him very hard if you want the truth. Okay. So then what about you? You're a big score in high school, right? And because of the respect that your dad had, because of your brother being a hell of a player,

like it wasn't, you were very heavily recruited. Why'd you go to IU? Well, it's funny because the very first, first VHS tape that I ever, that I ever watched. I remember getting our VCR when we were in 85 or late 1885. Yeah. But the very first VHSA. You used to have to press the button down.

You used to have to hold the record. There was the, it was like, I don't know, I don't know how you consider those buttons, but you actually had to press the button down, right? The record button was always the last button you had to press down. Right. And then the remote control had a cord. So we did, we did get one with a remote, but it had a. court.

So the very first VHS tape that I watched was Michigan versus Indiana for the Big Ten title, and this was Freeder versus Knight. I think Roy Tarpley was a senior. Steve Alford was a junior. But anyway, I just remember listening to Billy Packer and Brett Musburger talk about Bob Knight with such interest. And it was fascinating. how much they revered Coach Knight

and his personality and Steve Alford. And Michigan ended up killing him. But it stuck in my mind. And then came the movie Hoosiers. And that represented everything that my hometown

pretty much was. Small school, single school. Just me and my friends just dream of winning a state championship. That was my dream, winning a state championship for my dad. And so, you know, either way, I think that Indiana started recruiting my sophomore year,

Dan Dockich, ironically, was the first Indiana coach to start recruiting me. But it was just a dream of mine to, you know, when I was young to just go play basketball at Indiana for Coach Knight. and Coach Knight, I viewed as was similar to my dad. His offense, his defense, his principles. My dad talked about him a lot. I felt like, you know, in an alternate universe, Dugan probably would have went and played for him too if Michigan didn't exist. Because Coach Knight represented what the game was to us, hard work, championships.

doing it right you know there wasn't a lot of uh a lot of cheating going on in in his program it felt like we were just going to get an honest uh environment that was going to make you better and that's what it that's ultimately what it was even when i went there uh okay so you show up first day on campus at indiana what do you remember well my roommate was luke rcker and uh cow hornsby from Louisiana. Kyle Hornsby was a, uh, well just,

uh, he, he was a country boy. And, uh, Luke Racker was, was, uh,

a sophomore. But the first thing that I saw was coach Knight's, uh, Silver Lincoln. It's the first thing I remember. And then, uh, moved into my apartment.

And then we played open gym. And I was fearless. And, and here I am a McDonald's all American thinking I'm really good. And, and, uh, What made me good is that I understood the game.

I felt like I was way advanced. And you know that as a son of a coach. It's a blessing and a curse. You know, we are advanced, but then we think we know everything, and we're stubborn. But I've gotten where I was by playing hard, playing with effort, playing tough. And so the first day of open gym,

I ended up squaring off with a 6-8-235-pound 23-pound. year old named William Gladness. Yeah, we nearly got him at Oklahoma State. I mean, he was a junior college transfer. We nearly got him in Oklahoma State. We always like, we're like, man, we get William Gladness. We'll be all right. Yeah, and, you know, I was always thankful that guys broke it up before there were any

punched on him. But all I did was set a screen on him. Now, Will is who's passed away, but great guy. But interesting enough about Will is when you'd set a back screen on him, you know, screen them from behind. Oh, yeah. You had to be careful because he had a bullet lodged in his spine. And so apparently I'd hit that bullet.

I'd hit something and turned around, and he just said, gosh, that wasn't even as dirty as I could be, Will. But he said, you hit my bullet. You hit my bullet. And so that was what I remember is my first day on campus is the whole team ready to fight me out of the game. Gaiton. I mean, you guys had a pretty good team, right? You had Mike Lewis. You had Kirk Hasting?

We were loaded. We had a ton of talent. We just didn't defend it very well. We had first rounders. Luke Wrecker would have been a first rounder. He ended up transferring, as you remembered it, Arizona and then to Iowa. Lewis, who's the all-time assist leader. A.J. Gaiton, who was an American.

Kirk Haston was a redshirt freshman, my freshman year. We were a bit young. I mean, Lewis and Guyton were older, but we just, we didn't have a group that we didn't have a great team. We had a lot of good parts. We just didn't have a great team. And I think because, unfortunately, there are a lot of agendas, not necessarily from the players, but from people who were attached to the players that prevented us from really being a great team. you um you guys lost in 2000 a pepper dine and i know that not just because i can read history but i was

there who was in buffalo we thought we're going to play you and um i i you know like again i i i don't even play against indiana once here's my i'll give you the all my indiana stories i got uh one uh charlie miller stayed at my house for a summer maybe two summers He obviously preceded you at IU. For people don't remember, he's a wing, left-handed wing from Miami. He played for Frank Martin in high school. And so he played with us in AAU before he signed in Indiana.

And so I went to the, what was it, the university? It was the under 18 and under 21, like university games teams or whatever World Games team tryouts in Colorado Springs. And I met Brian Evans. And he told the greatest, most unbelievable Bob Knight stories. I mean, just had us howling, tackling, whatever. Anyway, then my freshman year, we get ready to play Indiana at Notre Dame. And the year before, Notre Dame had beaten Indiana in South Bend.

And I think, don't hold me to this one because I haven't looked at the beset. I think they hit something like 15 threes, which at the time, like even now is a ridiculous number, but the time was unheard of. And as you know, Coach Knight was very, it wasn't until Texas Tech and late in his career where he embraced the three-point shot. And so he basically thought it was bullshit basketball, and he told everybody, you know, basically Notre Dame beat us on bullshit basketball. So we knew he was going to be pissed because he didn't forget a game. And IU had played Yukon and the championship of the Great Alaska shootout.

And Yukon kicked the dog piss out of them, beat him by like 40, right? So we go down and they hadn't played in like a week. They got back from Alaska and I'm sure they practiced like five times a day, right? he probably kicked them out of the locker rooms and some shit like that. And we go down and the night before they had just put a new court down in the arena. Okay. In, what is it? Alumni Hall, whatever.

They just put a new assembly hall. I'm sorry. There's two assembly halls, right? There's Illinois and IU. So assembly hall. And so we go in and like if you better, and I know it's been redone. It's beautiful now. It wasn't beautiful then.

but it was just, it was gigantic. It was the biggest arena I had ever been in at that point in time of my life. It's like our first road game ever. And the court was springy as hell. And everybody is throwing down. Bam! Bam! We're like, man, we're going to be good.

And I was like, yeah, I don't know. We're going to be that good. So the things I'll never forget about Coach Knight is you're warming up. And you're looking down on the other end and there's the candy striped pants and there's I you. Damn.

And the band is playing. You're like, damn, I'm playing Indiana on national TV. Holy shit. And then outwalks Bob Knight. And I had met him a couple times before, but you forget, he's a big-ass dude, right? He was like, I don't know, six three, six-four. And he had the red sweaters. And then, you know, all the fans have the, they want to be Bob Knights, had the red sweaters.

And then he would always have a, he never came out by himself. He already had a couple dudes with him, right? He rolled deep for a. a coach. He had his cronies. He'd have his cronies. Yeah. So he comes out and like literally everybody stops.

Like we're in layup lines and dude stop and look and like there's coach night. You know, silver hair. He comes by and he shakes John McLeod's hands and go sit down, whatever. And you're like, you know, like it was at basketball royalty at that time. So we're down 40 to go ahead. Go ahead. We're down 40 to 14th to half. and I'll never forget

you go running off the court and you go right by the band and they're playing the fight song right and then the last part of the fight song is oh you and like the whole place is shaking and the student section is going don't come out

don't come out don't come out and I remember going to the locker I'm going like you know guys they say we don't have to come out in the second half like we're cool we're good

so here's the here's the story I tell you all the time so what was the big dude's name from Texas shit. Who's a junior at the... Yes. First name. Andre Patterson.

Huh? Andre Patterson. Andre Patterson, yeah. Right. So, we get our ass beat and I play okay. We go back to South Bend.

I roll into my dorm at Dillon Hall and I flip on ESPN. And it's right about to hit like the Sports Center. It goes, Dan, da, da, are you ready for Sports Center? So somewhere in the second half, I had driven in and tried to shoot a floater over Andre Patterson.

Part of it was, it was probably a little bit of a weak floater. Part of it was, it was at Indiana, so it was goaltending, I feel wasn't called. And part of it is, if you've been to assembly hall, you know, they have like three rows of stands that are low, and then there's the wall, and then there's the second level. And then the third level was so far out there. I don't even know how you see the floor. Right, right. He didn't block my shot. He caught my shot.

And I felt like threw it in the direction of John Cougar Mellon camp, who was sitting there. Oh, yeah. And it was add insult to injury when he caught the ball and threw it out of bounds. He goes, no! Right? So I get back, right? Remember, like grew up, dreaming of, like love Bob Knight, dreaming of playing maybe at four against Bob Knight. My dad has notes, copious notes from West Point of going to his, you know,

telling stories about his jump shot was called the blue dart when he played at Ohio State. Like, I know everything about Bob Knight. And we catch an ass, we catch an ass who up him by like 40 at IU. And are you ready for sports center? Dan, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. No! And there's my shot. There's my floater.

You see 44 from Notre Dame Gottlieb and Andre Patterson's face laughing as he throws a shot in the direction. That's my IU story. Anyway, go ahead. You were the lead. I was the lead. They did not bury the lead. Anyway, you were saying about Coach Knight, the thing that stuck out about you. Well, you mentioned how big he is.

And when I was, well, I committed to Indiana, okay, and then he came up to visit me sometime late fall. And we were still in football season. It may have just finished, but we're making the transition to basketball season. But I was a football player, too, and it's probably my first love. But I had interest in playing QB at Indiana. Cam Cameron was the coach at the time. and I said, Coach, you know, I'm coming. Back then, if you signed in the November early period,

you couldn't play football that fall, but if you signed in the late period, then you could. Weird rule. But I said, I'd like to sign in the spring, so I have an option to play in football. And there was just dead silence. He looked at the ground, he looked up. He pulled up his, he always wore elastic band pants.

I remember noticing that, but he pull up a chair and he lifted his pant leg up to his knee. And he said, you see these pants? You see this lake? Yeah, yeah, coach. You see this calf? Now, that's a damn football calf. I'm a football player.

This is a football lake. Now look at your scrawny legs. I said, yep. I said, I tell you what, you come to Indiana. You're coming to play basketball. and that's it. And I looked at my dad, who was in the athletic director, my coach at the time. He didn't have much to say.

He kind of left me out to dry. I said, okay, sounds good, coach. So needless to say, I signed in the early November signing period. But I remember that leg. He was definitely that leg of a tight end, maybe a defensive tackle. but he was a big fella. So you get beat by Pepperdine. That was his last game as head coach.

What was it like to be a, what was it like to be a player during what was it just a crazy, turbulent time at IU? Because again, like the lens we look at Coach Knight now is so different than the various lenses of his time at Indiana. Like 80s, early 90s, like he would have run for governor unopposed. even at any Exactly

But at Indiana I mean You went like Outside of Purdue fans Like 99% of people Are gonna vote for For Coach Knight Obviously it wasn't

He wasn't viewed the same But like You guys still had good players And you still had good teams And then all of a sudden The Neil Reed video Appears and And the interviews

And all that stuff That went bad What was that? What do you remember about that time? Well I always tell people now, you know, mostly that when you catch Coach Knight in his worst moments, they're usually in a game. And that's the big stage.

But behind the scenes, and I'd say for the most part being 80%, very complimentary in practice, pretty easy to work with in practice. His frustration was all about effort. When there was a problem, it was usually. about effort. It wasn't about a turnover, a miss shot. It wasn't about anything that you could control. Yeah, you couldn't control. And so, mostly complimentary. But they put the zero tolerance on them, okay, in the spring. They, as in the administration, I don't have a problem with that. You know, if you've got a problem with somebody, you got to deal with it the way you see fit.

Now, was it fair or not fair? I don't know. But they did. So we wrote. roll into early September, and I remember on the, I woke up Sunday, I woke up Sunday morning, and my roommate had called, and he said, hey, they're going to fire Coach Knight. So this was after he grabbed a student's arm and addressed, told him to call him Mr. Knight or Coach Knight. But, so we drove up to Indianapolis for the trustee meeting. President Brand announced that he was firing him. And it was funny because we drove back to Bloomington and Ed Wurter came over to our house from ESPN.

Met with us. I remember Andy Katz? I still to this day talked to Andy Katz about that day. Andy Katz was there. There were just, there were so many things. And then the students march on the president's house at the time. And I walked over to that to that just to see what was going on. and it was chaos.

I mean, you'd think there was a coup going on. And to see the passion and the anger and the frustration that people had for this figure was incredible. And I know myself and my teammates, I remember being in the locker room, Jared Jeffries, Sunday night when Coach Knight came back thanked Coach Knight And I remember Coach Knight going into the A little area outside the locker room And I overheard him tell a friend of his

That he couldn't face us As in I can't do this I don't want to have to face these guys I don't want to leave him And you saw You able to see Coach Knight vulnerable It will see how much we mattered and right or wrong, it was his time.

He left, but it was pretty emotional because a lot of us had dreamed of growing up and playing for that man, whether it's Indiana or not. That was my dream, and I was upset. I was frustrated, but it was a pretty surreal time for a bunch of 18-to-22-year-old kids that didn't know which end was up anyway. Okay, so what happened?

Was there, did you guys get together? Because, I just think the leadership of that moment is fascinating. And like, obviously, it was today, you guys would all be in the transfer portal. But it wasn't that way then. And somebody had to have dudes over. Like I heard a story, Brian Evans, I never remember, I never forget the story that, you know, one year, he kicked him out. He would always kick you guys out of the locker room, put all your shit in the hallway, right?

And they wouldn't have practice, but you're supposed to run practice on your own. Then Karen, his wife would come down and talk to. Coach Knight loves you guys. Like it was like a, it was just one of the things that he would do, but that sometimes in order to get away, you know, they'd go to a manager's house

and all the players would hang out together. And there were some tape, and you tell me if there's real, there's some tape of Coach Knight getting run over and practice where, you know, you're transitioning from offense to defense, and he forgot, and he got caught up in the whitewash. And he's like, man, I'm telling you, when we'd have a bad day, we'd go to a manager's house, and we'd watch that tape over and over and over again, him getting run over and laugh our ass off.

So what do you remember about, like, because you guys stayed together and you end up going to a Final Four. I know everybody didn't stay. How did it play out? Well, I was transferring back to Michigan State, and I went over to Coach Nights, maybe Monday. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered.

SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests.

I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses.

Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth, or are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing,

growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, learn the hard way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen kingdom on earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back.

Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, meeting the president of Turkey. I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across. When Jacob met Levant this plant to a billion dollar fraud. But with two kings from Indiana, entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me?

Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On hurdle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WNBA standout Kate Martin and rising hockey star Layla Edwards.

If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't feel like. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladecki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile,

that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts for wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. You're fired on September 10th, so probably September 11th or 12th. I remember being in his kitchen and just saying, Coach, look, if they're not keeping the rest of the staff, then I'm going to go because I don't want to play for a new staff. When we heard rumors of different coaches coming in, And, you know, I wasn't sure what was going to happen with the rest of the team in terms of who's coming and going.

A lot of us said we were going to transfer. I think some of them were bluffing. I at the time wasn't because I wanted to – I was okay. I was at peace with Coach Knight being removed, but I didn't want to lose the rest of the staff, that being Mike Davis and John Treelor. Pat Knight was the other assistant. I assumed he was leaving. So Coach Knight seemed to think that –

They weren't going to retain Mike Davis, who's at University of Detroit now, or John Treelor, who's a scout with Phoenix. Coach Knight didn't think they were going to retain them either, so I said, well, help me transfer. And it's funny because there's so many coaches that come up, that have come up over the years that Coach Knight actually reached out to. But I said, can you help me transfer? And he said, you sure this is what you want to do? I said, yeah, I don't want to be a part of a new staff, and I'm not sure who's going to stay, and it doesn't really matter. I don't want to be here a party.

I don't want to change things. So, you know, I went back. I left right away and announced I was transfer, and meanwhile, Jared Jeffries comes up to me and says, well, hey, you know, I'm hearing that they might keep Mike Davis, John, Coach Davis, and Coach Treelor, and let them do an interoperable. them. Just like, oh, man. So long story short, I decided I was going to stay. Kirk Hasten stayed,

and Jared Jeffries was a freshman that year. Tom Coverdale, we had a really good core group that over the course of two years became a damn good team, even though Hasten left. It was funny because Hasten was really instrumental in me staying. And not that I mattered. I averaged five points a game, but, you know, I was just vet, and they needed some vets, but Hasten went pro after that year, and Haston was the one that talked me into staying and said we're going to win a national championship in the next two years.

And so when Hasten left, I didn't speak to him for a whole summer. But I guess looking back, you've got a chance to be drafted, I think he was 15 or 16. to the Charlotte Hornets. Probably should have left. But we had a good core group, Jared Jeffries, Coverdale, Kyle Hornsby, Jared Odle. We were, we were, I don't have any stories like Brian Evans does about rallying over the, our coach getting run over.

But I do think that, you know, we rallied on Coach Knight's behalf and because he was still important to us and still is. And you combine that with. with Coach Davis and John Treelor, putting us in positions to succeed. It was a great recipe, but the other thing it was, it was some guys that were committed, committed to winning, committed to Indiana. I'm always upgrading my car, not because I need to, because I want to. Today, it's custom rims for my ride.

Tomorrow, it might be a new driver's side seat cushion, and eBay Motors.com always has what I need. They've got over 122 million car parts, all at the right price. That's perfect for me, because I'm a car guy. Are you still in the garage? It's two in the morning. Almost done. Okay, I'm a car fanatic. eBay Motors. Let's ride.

When was the last time you seriously considered your dream? Did something never thought you would do. How about live the van life in a totally customized Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van? You could tour the country. Whatever you want to dream up. And we're talking about Mercedes-Benz van here. Expect innovative safety features like cross-wind assist and blind spot assist. Expect performance and reliability with that MBUX voice command system.

You're going to get five-star dealer network available with a gas engine. Now you could win your very own Mercedes-Benz Sprinter Mode 4x4. You entered the Dan Patrick Show Ultimate Camping Rigs sweepstakes. You go to Danpatrick.com or Fox SportsRadio.com, and there you, you enter, get official rules for a chance to win this beautiful Mercedes-Benz sprinter van. Danpatrick.com or foxportsradio.com and you have to do so by February 2nd. Your dream is waiting for you. Danpatrick.com, Fox SportsRadio.com. Some equipment described is optional. This episode is brought to you by Royal Caribbean, an award-winning global cruise line.

A vacation is what you make it. So are you ready to make the most of it? A Royal Caribbean adventure is the perfect opportunity to not just take a vacation, but to take it for all its worth. We know you're eager to get back out there, and with Royal Caribbean, you can make the most of the moment and rise to the vacation. This is not just a cruise. This is the biggest, boldest vacation on land or at sea. This is pushing the limits of what could be done at sea and on land, breaking records and earning honors along the way. With over 270-plus destinations from the Caribbean, Alaska to Europe, and the biggest ships in the world to take you there. Each one of our cruises is packed full of onboard features. You won't find anywhere else. Like the tallest slide at sea and the tallest

water slide in all North America. Plus dining that takes your taste buds on a world tour, jaw-dropping entertainment, an award-winning service delivered by a crew that comes to us from over 140 countries. So just don't take a vacation. Rise to the vacation. Come seek the Royal Caribbean. Visit Royal Caribbean. Visit and dot com to learn more. If you could, the three things, give me three things that Coach Knight taught

that you believe in to this day. You know what? I think that even as I work for Coach is, oh, the one thing you can't allow as a coach is a bad practice. And a bad practice from a team, but it usually starts

from somewhere. Does it start from your leadership amongst your players, does it start from a player or does it start, where does it stem from? And Coach Knight would never let up. It was a relentless pursuit of excellence. And if there was a bad practice from a player, he dealt with it. He dealt with it in a way that would typically make sure that it wouldn't happen again. and so there was no let-up.

And I remember being in practice, and it was like a trance because you had to be focused. You had to be intense. You had to know what you were doing. And when practice ended, it was, it wasn't released, but it was, what did I just do for the last two hours? Because of that, you know, for a 21, or 18 to 20,

two-year-old to maintain focus for that two hours for that long period of time is I don't think it could happen today and it barely could happen back when I played in the early two late 90s early 2000s. Yeah it's interesting because we used to

our practices were long and I never forget so the old Gallagher Iba used to have a clock in up you know behind the stands in one of the end zones and remember this is a 6300 seat gym it's not really an arena but it used to be a clock and guys would, you know, they're huffing and puffing and they'd look up. And we didn't, we didn't condition.

You know, coaches saying, you know, occasionally during Christmas break, we'd do some running, and we do running as punishment, but we never did conditioning. Right. When I was at Notre Dame, we can, I thought John McLeod had an interesting way of doing conditioning. He had four quarters of practice. And at the end of every quarter of practice, you would do a conditioning drill or two and then get water. That's how he did it. or as Coach Sutton, like, we never did any conditioning.

His whole thing was like, you can make it through my practice. You can make it through a game. And I never forget, like, you'd be on your shorts and guys that start looking up. And we would, part of the problem was we had a bunch of, and I think you guys are the same thing. We had a bunch of smart asses. Yep. And, you know, you get to like two and a half, three hours and be like, 20 hour rule, 20 hour rule, right? And, and coach would, it would, without any way, it would happen a couple of times the year.

year where he'd tell late Pat Noyes, one of the guys who died in plane crash he goes, Snake, you go up there and you cover up that clock. And you got a bunch of clock watchers here. You got a bunch of clock. We came here to work. We came. It is the hardest thing you're going to do in live.

You cover up that damn clock. And sure enough, there'd be like a white sheet over the clock and guys are trying to like look through the white sheet like, man, I think we've been here three hours, man. Fuck this. We got to get out of here, right? But it's really amazing. Because now, and I don't know what you, and we used to make fun of Kansas, because Kansas, you know, they would dial back their practices a bunch.

That was Roy Williams thing. It was like fresh legs, man. They go like 45 minutes an hour when they get to February. And coach, you wouldn't have any of that shit. And, but now I do think you need, you're better off going twice a day for an hour and 15, hour and a half just because guys' attention spans aren't that long, let alone coach's attention. and spans aren't that long.

Well, that's right. And I'd say this, too. There's a lot more for head coaches to have to do now than there was. And, you know, whether it's recruiting alumni, media, oh, and don't forget about your own family. You just wonder how a guy like coaches or Coach K processes things throughout the day. I'd say the other thing that I won't forget, we would always wonder what kind of mood Coach Knight was in each day. It always varied.

And it could be, there were so many spots on the spectrum that he could be. But being in this business now, I think it was just his way of not allowing us to be comfortable and finding things to keep us on our toes, which isn't out of the ordinary or the working world, I don't think. I think good bosses find ways to keep people motivated without driving them away. And those that understand that get better. Those that don't look for excuses.

But there were so many different personalities. You talk about split personality. just multiple splits. But I think looking back, it's probably, you know, the old method to his madness. And then the third thing was a lot of people, I mean, when you think of Coach Knight,

you think of motion offense, right? Right, right. I think people do, but there's different types of motion, right? You guys would have, you know, you'd have the baseline runner, you'd have the triangle, right? There was a couple different types, but go ahead. Yeah.

I think, you know, we didn't have out-of-bounce plays either. Guys figured it out. But the attention to detail on the defensive end, I think, where Coach Knight was his best. And I think the motion was just a toy. I mean, motion allowed him to coach defense more. And, you know, I argue with Coach Isow all the time, you know, whenever he talks about how they used to whip us.

I said, now keep in mind, Coach, I was four and four against Michigan State while I was Indiana at Indiana. And he'll even make the comment, well, you know, you guys, you guys were motioned and you were hard to prepare for it, but you guys, did you guys prepare that much on defense? And I said, well, coach, there's a reason why we beat you, the mighty Michigan State. I mean, and that's because it's pretty similar to what we do here. But I'd say that he doesn't get enough credit. Coach Knight doesn't get enough credit for his defense.

of preparation and the way his team's defended. Now, in his later years, they struggle. There's a lot of turnover in players, and I don't think he was getting the players that he really needed to, but the defense is something that's underrated. Okay, so we did, I guess, force baseline. We did post-to-post double. We worked on, well, we call it, you know, sealing,

where we would seal off the lane you drove baseline you'd come over and help and take a charge and trap that and then whoever was guarding the ball you were the rotate man

or you were the flyer right and we'd work on you know you know scramble drill and out of a double team in the low post when the ball is reversed scramble as well

but I'll never forget again one of my first practices at Oklahoma State I said coach which way we force him. And he's like, what do you mean? I was like, well, we force him baseline, we force the middle.

He was like, neither. Like, no, no, no, coach. Like, where's the help? He's like, college man. She guard his man. I was like, all right, coach, that's great. But if he happens to go by me, which way would you prefer he goes by me to the baseline or to the middle?

Like, neither of you. He goes by you. the only place you're going is to sit next to me and help me coach, right? It was a little simpler then, right? Like we did have in-bounds plays, but, and I've talked about this, Miles Simon joined me last week on the pod, and he was like, dude, we had three plays. Like, Lute never brought up a whiteboard. Coach said never drew on a whiteboard or whatever.

I understand. But you guys did help to the middle, right? Was it, was the help from the middle or the help from the, because like the players kind of, and the assistant coach is like, well, what coach really wants is like, you don't want you, but all right, we're going to help from the base. It was almost like whispering. You know, what was the general defensive philosophy that was so good? It was baseline.

It was baseline. And it was funny because it just had changed right around that era to me. A lot of it was metal. And then it just had changed to baseline probably somewhere in the mid-90s. Or I'm sorry, late 80s, early 90s. Before that, I don't think there was defense. And I listen to my dad talk about when he played in the 70s. I said we didn't have defensive principles.

Guard your man and do a good job. That was Eddie Sutton right there. I want you to turn his ass to the glass. Excuse me? We're in Arkansas. We had the triplets, and Marvin Delph and Alvin Robinson, and they would get into you when you cross midcourt, and we wanted to make that point guard turn his ass to the glass.

brother. You can guard like that. You can play for me. Anyway, yeah, there wasn't any like, hey, how are we playing this ball screen? Like, we're going to, you know, we're going to, we're going to ice it, or we're going to trap it? Like, no, he guard your man. Yeah, that's right. Okay, so. Don't let your man score.

Yes, that's generally good, that's good coaching right there. You know what? I always give my dad crap about going against Rick Mount. He denies he had to guard him, but Rick Mount got 52 against him, against Michigan and beat him. And that's without that's without three-point

the three-point shot. How does that happen? How does that happen? How does a guy score 52 points without the three-point shot? Have you ever seen Rick Mount shoot a basketball? Yeah, yeah, but do you think Rick Mount would do it in today's game? Yeah.

See, I don't, and that's not to say that Rick Mount wasn't incredible. But, I mean, defense today is a lot different. I would agree, I remember going to Final Fours, and Rick Mount would do shooting clinics. And I was like, Dad, does he ever miss?

And he's like, nope. I mean, it was unbelievable. And then you had it in the three point line. Okay, so what do you remember about the Final Four playing in it? Well, I remember the flag. Okay, this was a year of 9-11, and it's 2002, and I remember the flag. Okay, and it was a lot bigger. that's the flag that's flying on the World Trade Center

near the World Trade Center and it had the burn marks and you could smell it and they had the firefighters and policemen that were at Ground Zero and it was as powerful as as being in the presence of

of Coach Knight or it was just it was an incredible rush and otherwise to win the game, the games. And again, it's for guys that we had a lot of juniors and seniors, the intensity, the focus, there wouldn't, aside from my kids being born, there's not a better moment. There's not a bigger rush. There's not a bigger time, you know.

The 18 to 20s, you always hear people talk. stories the older people about the good old days. Yeah. You know, my grandpa, 92, passed away, but his 18, 1920s, World War II, Normandy. Other grandpa, Philippines, you know, just the time when you were young, you were, you were out from under the umbrella of your parents, and it was just an incredible time. And in the final four, it was in Atlanta that year. and, you know, there are a lot of great stories that came from it, but ultimately, Doug, I think,

remember the smiles that put on people's faces. And I don't remember much from the games, but the smiles that we put on people's faces, especially Indiana that was reeling from the coach night firing, we gave the people from a sports perspective, from a basketball perspective, something to smile about. We probably weren't supposed to be there. I think we were a four-seed that year. We beat Duke who had eight first-rounders.

That's crazy, but we were supposed to... Well, I think it was insane. I don't know. They had eight first-rounders. We had one CBA draft pick. That was me. So I guess you could say we had one first-rounder, right? Yeah.

CBA. Yeah. Listen, I was the U.S.B. I was the first overall pick of the U.S.P.L. What team? Oklahoma City. No, Oklahoma Storm. Inuit Oklahoma.

Number one, royal pick. A lot of fighting for that pick. They traded up. There's at least one ball bag that was exchanged. Huh? You and Chris Weber. Same thing in common. Yeah.

Both first round picks. But you know how. You just, you see those smiles and just, just, an incredible time. Okay, so how about this one? You did fix your shot or the, like, look, you had a little bit of the same thing I had, only you fixed it by the end of your college career. I couldn't, right?

Like you were a big score, Mr. Basketball, State of Michigan, everybody wanted you, and then you couldn't make a shot in college until your senior year when, again, like now, you'd probably shoot twice as many threes, but you became nearly a 50% three-point shooter. and you actually became a threat. How did you fix it? You know what? There's a ton of variables that go into that, but I think I first had to understand a couple things.

One, the physiology of it. What's happening to... I mean, Mike Davis, one of my favorite people on Earth, took over for Coach Knight when he was fired. Coaching Act Detroit. Used to call me Quarter Till. and quarter till just meant when the lights turned on, I was great until the lights turned on and it was game time.

Not out of the ordinary for a young player. And AJ Geithen used to call me the practice All-American. He says I was the best practice player in the country. And then the lights turned on. And you know what? It's ultimately, it's choking. You're choking. I like to look at it as over-caring

and put too much pressure on myself. But to understand the physiology, component, like what is happening to your body, I would find myself so worked up before the game so nervous about not doing what I was capable of doing, so frustrated, so anxious, that I would be exhausted before the game. And, you know, it would just manifest itself into everything. It'd be dribbling. It'd be anything that involved the small muscles, the little muscles in your fingers, your

arms, anything that would affect the small muscles, the finesse muscles, similar to what would affect a pitcher or a quarterback. You know, the big muscle, things like running and staying in a defensive stance, and it didn't involve the finesse part of it, I was fine, but it was small things. And so, and what did I do to change it? My senior year, I'd always worked on my shot. I'd always worked on my game. A lot, a lot of shots, a lot of time, outside of practice.

You know, I think I'd like to say I just stopped caring, but I didn't stop caring. I just think that you never know when it's going to click, and you've got to put in the work, but it just finally clicked. And I think part of it was perspective, just having better persuasive. perspective, but the other part was I'd seen every psychologist, talk to every coach, talked to every person you could think of to try to gain that perspective. But I think ultimately it was just the pressure went away after I decided that the game was important, but it wasn't my life and it didn't define it.

me and there were breathing techniques and there were different things that you could do. But it didn't define me. How often you've been a coach now for your entire professional life? You know, you did one year a hoop and then how often do you see this occurring where you have guys with what I think the layman would term a performance anxiety? I would say that everybody has some degree of it. And the best example I can give you is something that I know you struggled with, and that was free throws.

And so if you take somebody in the game at the free throw line versus what they shoot in practice, it always is different. It's always different. So with that mind, my deal was, so I'll tell you, Quick kind of psychologist. Sorry to interrupt. So mine started to manifest itself in high school, very late at the free throw line. And I was a big score.

I never forget, we were playing at the pond in Anaheim, which is now the Honda Center. We're playing Dominguez, who I lost to my junior year and my senior year. They were loaded. Tashon Prince and Tommy Prince. Tashon was just like a freshman, Tommy Prince, and Kenny Bruner. Like, they had a squad. And I remember getting to the free throw line. in the pond and I had always been like end of the game hold the ball get fouled make free

throws right and like I just all the sudden felt off felt like this is not where I'm supposed to be and then I went to Notre Dame and I was 160 pounds and I mean I was cocky as shit like I was I'm gonna be starting point guard and we started like lifting and we were you know taking it back then creatine was big right whatever and I don't know what water weight or whatever. By the time we got to our first game, I was 177, and I was yoked, right? Man muscles 19, yoked. But I felt like my body was tight, and I felt like I felt heavier.

And suddenly I went from being able to dunk to like, all right, now I'm like nick in the rim. And that hurt my, and then I was a little bit, you know, your freshman year, like, I was a little lost offensively. Now, for me, the free throw thing became kind of. It wasn't until I got really to Oklahoma State where it manifests itself to any shooting, where I just had a fear of failure. And so I wouldn't shoot. And I would, but, but I also remember, I was the opposite. I could do anything on a basketball court. I just couldn't get myself to actually shoot like I can normally shoot, you know.

Right. And then it'd become like a self-fulfilling prophecy where I wouldn't believe it was going to go in, so it wouldn't go in. And so you'd take it and it would look bad shooting and would get worse and then you'd feel bad. And it was really, I mean, I don't know how you feel about your first three years in college. Like, I've never shown my son a tape of me playing college because I'm so embarrassed by how people guarded me because I'm like, of course I can fucking shoot. But you know what I mean? Yeah. And it's so hard.

And I was so, as good as I was. And I also had a coach. didn't know how to coach me. Like, I love Eddie Sutton. But he didn't understand what was going on with me mentally where I just needed somebody to go like, hey, dude, you miss it? Don't worry about it. You're not taking bad shots.

Get your ass back on defense. But instead, he'd take me out. And then I never wanted to come out. I felt like coming out of a game was punishment. And so I was just like, shit, if I don't shoot, then he's not going to take me out. And then I'm good. Whereas all the guys in my team are like, shit, take the shot. You miss.

Don't worry about it. He's going to put you back in. And I just couldn't get over that mental hurdle. Yeah. Well, it is. It's a case of just you're over-caring. And it's funny because mine started in high school, too. And it started at the free throw line. I shot an airball, and then next thing I know, the crowd's yelling airball. So then I got to the point, whatever you do don't airball. So then I'm just hoping and praying it hits the rim as the year went on. And it was my sophomore year. And we lost a chance at a state championship because of it. And, you know, if I could pinpoint, Exactly why. And I could look back in like six and seventh grade and say, gosh, I could make free throws better than I could in college in seventh grade. And so, you know, the pressure gets to everybody.

There's varying degrees. I kind of look at it as three types, you know. So the worst one, and baseball is an easy one to look to, would be the Steve Sacks or the Chuck Knoblock or the guy that's going through it right now is the pitcher John Lester. And what I'm for the Cubs, and I think he's still with it. Now I think he left.

Who's he with now? I don't know, but he got to where he could actually kind of, kind of throw it to first base, but. Right, but it would be underhand, it'd be something awkward.

And I was surprised, and I think you agree with this, that it didn't spill into his pitching. Nope. And lean to throw in the first base. Right. And so the fascination of it, where,

that would be the worst, though, where Steve Sacks or Chuck Knoblocker, remember Rich Ankeel for the Cardinals, watched it unfold before my eyes when he was pitching against the Braves. I think it was the NLCS. And he just, it just, he just

went to hell right in front of us. And he ended up coming back as a hitter, but never, and it was an elite, elite pitcher. And so there's those, but I think most, Most players spend their pressure, you know, spend, they're in the middle area of if they could just get over the hump as far as dealing with the pressure, they would be elite. They would be pros.

You know, and then there are the pros that really can handle the pressure. But, you know, Shaq, for example, okay? In my opinion, Shaq didn't miss. Shaq couldn't hit a free throw because of what you and I had to deal with. Yeah, he had big hands. Yeah, he had long arms. Yeah, he was 7-7-1-3-30. But I think it was completely in his head where most people said,

yeah, no, he shot 38% because his hands are too big. You know, he's worked with every coach. You know, he just golfers. A golfer, you know, the, The things that involve those finesse muscles, like pitching and shooting, it's delicate, and the mental psyche is delicate, and that's why there's so few great pitchers. I'd like to say if every pitcher that through 96-mile-an-hour could put it where they want it, then we wouldn't have Greg Maddox, Doug.

And that's the truth. I mean, there would be no room for 88-mile-an-hour fastballs, 86-mile-an-hour fastballs. If you could put it where you want it. But the fact of the matter is you can't because of the mental psyche. It's just hard to be elite. And I just think that's the fascination is why did it happen to you and I? Why did it happen to Steve Sachs? Why did it happen to Shaq?

Chuck Knoblock and John Lester. Why do you think? I'm like, why do you think it's, do you think it's, I'd like to think it's a sign of intelligence, right? That you think too much, that you think about the ramifications of it. You know, I would, I would say that would be my thing as I just overthought it. Joe Crispin, who you played against, I know, Joe Crispin has a saying, he would, he's now a D3 coach. Oh, yeah. And his brother, yeah, and Joe was a great shooter.

And I never forget, he was like, hey, man, you think you stink. Just remember that. Yeah. You think you stink. Yeah. And I just couldn't, I just couldn't, I never thought about a, never thought about a single pass I ever had to make. I never thought about anything else. Like, you know, all these guys, like my son was, hey, dad, did you cross over, go behind your back?

I was like, no. I just, I would try and go by somebody. And if they would beat me to a spot, I would. would spin or I'd cross over or go behind my back or something like that. I'd just react to it. Like I didn't do all this other one on cone brush yet. But I didn't have to, you know, whereas you see little kids and they're like thinking moves. Like, who thinks about a move?

But I would get up there and I would start, I would start thinking. And, you know, I think, you know, as I've gone on now as a dad and trying to teach as a coach. And it's what I've done, what I think the proper way to teach things is to teach process. as opposed to result, which is like, hey, worry about your feet and you're breathing in your hands and just don't even worry about the ball going in.

Because the more if your feet are right, you know, if you just worry about these little things, your feet are right, your hands right, it'll go in more times than not. I think that's the way. Okay, so let me fast forward here because your time is precious. You become a head coach at 25 years old

at Indiana, Purdue, Fort Wayne. What was that like? You know, once again, being the son of a coach, you know, the basketball component was easy. Teaching it came natural. I think what you can't get a head coach, much less a 25-year-old to understand, is that this is a serious business. they're, you know, just like the financial world or, you know, the movie business. This is a serious business.

And there's a lot of good people. And then there's a lot of people that will, are looking for the easy way. And growing up, the way I did, I assume you're the same way, especially in sport, small town, you're not really exposed to, I wasn't exposed to, you know, the, the bad parts of humans, you know, where the selfish part of it, the selfish part of the world, the greedy part of the world. And so at 25, I'm just thinking, look, if I'm just honest, if I'm just kind, if I'm just do things right like Coach Knight did, I'll be great. And it just wasn't the way it worked.

In what way? I mean, like, listen, this is a long way removed from it? Yeah. But in what way? I mean an example. How did it, the way it changed me. I went into it as a 25-year-old with a very open-minded, naive, part of it being so young, but just believing in people with the utmost degree of

respect and honesty and integrity, because that's all I'd ever been around and exposed to. And part of it was my choice. You know, going to Indiana, I was around a lot of great people. Part of it was just being in a family and a town that had great leadership and great people. And so I entered a world of, there's millions to be made. And there's a lot, a lot of money in a stake. And then you've got to deal with a lot of good parents, but many delusional parents and coaches and mentors and a lot of different agenda. So essentially, I entered the real world and the real world can be unforgiving. And so,

So as a 25-year-old, navigating the running with the wolves was a big shock. So an example would just simply be scheduling. I didn't understand you couldn't just play because you and I were brought up as, hey, let's play these teams to get better. Right. You know, so I was excited about those opportunities. I didn't care about my record at that time. And the more I was told and, look, you've got to get wins.

You've got to get this. You got to get this. I said, well, hey, look, let's get our players better. I would say that the recruiting world is, even at that level, is difficult. In what way? Because of everybody thinks they're a pro. Yeah. Yeah, that's the amazing part, right?

It's like, listen, do you know Indiana, Purdue, Fort Wayne? And by the way, like, people obviously Google, they're terrible. Like your last year, you were 18 and 12 at IPFW. That's amazing. That's amazing in Division I basketball. Considering the number of guarantee games you had to play, the resources, the fact that, like, you're not even the most famous IUPU, right? Like, IUPU-I-Pooie was much more.

Like, wait, what? Purdue-F-F-W-W-W-E-P-Wy. What the hell? It was funny because I had an assistant named Jeff Tungate, who's the head coach of the Oakland University Women. But he was an assistant, and he was my assistant, and he was at Division II school. And when he came in on day one and saw our budget at IPFW,

who was transitioning from D1 or D2 to D1, we weren't in a league. He said, this is, you're funded. I got bad news. You're funded like a bad, bad division two team. And he said the chances of us getting 10 home games out of 29 or 30 at the time is going to be really difficult. And he said, you want worse news? He said, you're starting going to 5 out of the gate.

He said, what do you mean? He goes, we've got to play five by games. and of the so many that were played last year, let's say there were 250, 250 buy games that were played last year. He said three, three teams won a buy game. You start out 0 and 5, and then the tough part was just getting games and even more difficult than that was getting home games. But, you know, that said that the building part,

we finally got into a league. eventually. And you said 18 and 12, it was funny because the year I left, we were 18 and 12. And that was the year that Michigan State lost to UCLA in the first round. And I said,

I think we were 18 and 12 and I think Michigan State was 19 and 12. I said, they're having a parade for us in Fort Wayne, and they're ready to fire Izzoity in East Lansing. And that gives you some perspective. I said, we finished third in our last. league.

I might even finish second. I don't remember, but, you know, Michigan, we finished third in the big 10,

we may be a three-seed. You know, and I'd say 18 at the mid-to-low major level because of buy games. Yeah, it's unbelievable.

That's as good as any 20-game high major. More than 20. I mean, you can, you know, 20 wins. I don't know if you know this, but over 100 teams

per year win, 20 games. Okay, so, so you go to Michigan State what is Tom iso like to work for and look obviously you're not going to say anything bad about your boss all I can tell you is guys generally you know your staff you two haven't left

and it's not for lack of opportunities so he must be pretty damn good to work for what is he like everybody it's funny when I'm on the road get to know somebody talk to somebody maybe just met from another program. What's it like? What's it like working for his? Oh, he's the best. I say, are you kidding me? They say, do you love it? Do you love it, Dane? He said, are you kidding me?

It's hard. Love it. Winning. I love winning. All right, but coming into work every day, it's hard work. I don't know if loves the right word, but I'll tell you this, Doug. I love him, and he makes me better every single day. And, you know, I was looking at a job last year, and it paid more. It was a, I wouldn't call it a lateral move, but it's hard to make a lateral move from a program like this and a boss like this.

But I said, I don't want to go. I said, I just want to know that you bring value, I'm sorry, I just want to know that I'm still, that you think I'm still bringing value to your program and that I'm still making your program better. And, you know, he obviously told me yes because I stayed, but it's every day that I feel I get better. And I just told somebody that this morning,

you know, why not take a certain job or go after a certain job that's open. I said, you know, it would take a lot to get me to leave, and mainly because I'm still getting better. I'm still learning here in a major way. And it's hard to work for, but here's the thing about Coach iso. What he says he's going to do, he's going to do. And at no point, even in his worst day,

even when he's told me, you know, I've done something wrong or done a bad job or he's disappointed or he yells at me or tells me to look for another job at the end of the year. At no point do I not think that he doesn't have my best interest in mind. I know at all times that whatever he does, it's for my best interest, much like a player, but I've just never been around a guy that's more selfless than him. and we can talk about him making big money and all that. You know what? He's had chances to triple that

and put less time in in the NBA. And we're in a situation right now in college basketball that there is not a better leader. And I'm going to stroke my boss for a little for a second. There's not a better leader slash CEO out there than coach iso because he gets the most out of you, and yet he does it out of love. And we can talk about him getting in people's faces,

but him doing that to somebody is different than say, me or you doing that to somebody because of the amount of love and time and passion and work that he puts into each individual player and coach and person. You know, this is a guy that, grew up in a really small upper peninsula town, poor town. He was poor. His dad owned a shoe repair shop, and he was in there working.

And if you didn't, five people came in to spend money that day, Doug, you needed them to spend money. So you had to learn to treat people like a million bucks and be genuine about it. and so this is just a larger shoe repair shop, honestly. I've just never been around anybody that's as passionate and caring about others as this guy, as Coach Izzo, in his position. Right. He doesn't have to be.

He doesn't have to coach. He doesn't have to put up with stuff. He could go to the NBA. He could retire. It's just an incredible time, and the book hasn't been written, and I'm surprised why it has. you can make a lot of money writing a book on this guy. Where's fine time?

I actually ran in by the final four, but do you want to have him write? I want, let me, I could change and I could, I could write it. Okay, so I got a couple more. Sure. Because I want to talk about this year's team. But first I want to ask him, this is in regards to this year's team. He has certain things that he does, right? He always, you know, come over, call time out here,

end of game situations, things you guys prepare for. But what I've noticed is some, he started some of it last year, but really this year especially. And the team had some limitations, but I've noticed kind of a bit of an evolution in some of the stuff you guys run. Like, if you go back a couple years ago when I was a CBS, like it was the same plays and sets and maybe even calls you guys had run forever. Look, and you still have your still core, you know, you're still rebounding, you're still transitioning. you guys are still running the lane super hard and super wide. You guys still rebound like wild dogs. But the actual sets offensively have evolved.

There's some NBA looks. There's some ball screens that are to the baseline side. There's some different stuff. Who's the guy in the staff that convinced him to change? Well, I'm sure there's a bunch of people. But I guess from my perspective, my approach with coach was, you know, he's best friends with the late flips owners. slip.

And flip would always come every summer and chalk talk and coach would always, I always, since I've been here, would always hear coach talk about, you know, flipping his counters, flipping his counters. That's a good point, coach. Why do you, why do you say flipping his counters? It's just, you know, like, shouldn't, shouldn't we have counters to a set? thinking, why doesn't he like counters? And so he wasn't real big on counters per se, you know, counterplay.

So if you run a pin down and they go underneath the pin down, you should we call it a fade. Just script it. You know, just, all right, Travis Trice, you're coming off a fade because you're going up the gut. Counter. More motion principles, more reeds, but after last year we lost the Syracuse. Now there's a million reasons why, but you don't want to hear any of them.

But we can talk about it. I just thought, all right. Emma and my own thoughts, been. Yeah, yeah, some things that we need to change, okay? And I went down my list of things that we needed work on, of course, naturally, end of the season. But I just got to thinking, you know, today's player, all right, forget about the personality the toughness, all that stuff. We can sort through that.

But today's player, especially the young kids, are taught so much with the ball in their hands. Okay? And Miles Bridges is an example. We just had this. I just had this discussion with a coach,

but go ahead. If you watch Miles play in college, okay, damn good. All those things, good at, good at what he's good at. But one of the things he had no idea how to do when he got him,

when we got him, was play without the basketball. Right. That takes time. So I said, we're pounding a square peg to a round hole trying to teach these guys how to move and cut,

teach them all these principles how to play without the ball. And that's great. We should, and we should never stop. But I said, we've got to start putting them in positions, A, that they're good at,

B, you know, allowing them to, not allowing them, but, catering to what each player can do well. And so I said, in addition, one of our biggest cells is that we are running an NBA-style offense. And yet the NBA seemingly has moved a little bit. And we've, as you kind of alluded to, I said, we've stayed the same.

Right. And so we have guys like Miles Bridges, who and Jaron Jackson, that A, they're young, incredibly young, 17, 18, and B, really don't know how to play without the ball. Jaron was better in Miles, but that's a lot to ask, considering we are so young. And so the recruiting philosophy, I think, needs to be changed, needs to change our recruiting philosophy. it's hard to survive with a couple one and duns. You've got to go all in, in my opinion, or really, really limit your one and duns. But B, we either recruit kids that know how to play without the ball,

which is really hard to recruit the best talent that we think fits our program, the best profile that fits our program. And you never know until they get here. But what we do know is the guru generation, the trainer generation you know the kids that don't go play five on five out in the park or at you know I call one on cone generation

there you go that's right we've got we've got some amazing that's what I sell the recruits it's funny look I can put you through the best cone drills you'll ever see you know as good as as good as as as good as anybody as good as the best in the country I can set up cones Okay, but, you know, the one thing you're going to get here is this, this, and this, chance to play for a championship, chance to play for Hall of Fame, and you'll be pushed. But that was my, that was, I know that was a long answer, but, you know, that was my thought is we've got to do a better job of putting our players in position to play to their strengths in real time.

you know, and they'll evolve, they'll develop, we believe in versatility, and then the counters. All right, so if they go start trapping Cassius' ball screen, let's not go away from, okay, can't set a ball screen for Cassius. Let's use it against them. You know, let's let them trap Cash and put our guys in position to where now we're going to punish them. you know, if they start turning, if they start playing on top of a downscreen, let's not go away from the down screen, let's use it against them. And so those through the adjustments that were my suggestions.

And coach is awesome. Coach is those the best in listening. He may not agree with it, but he's definitely going to listen. So how did, now that you've had a chance to decompress, you guys had an amazing year, right? Like, not just you lose two lottery picks and you win your tournament in Vegas, you win the Big Ten, you win the Big Ten tournament, you get to a Final Four, right? Like of things that can be checked, you checked every box except for one, which is win a National Championship, right? I mean, that's an incredible season.

And then you factor in all the injuries, right? Like, I think if you had Arns, I think you might go to a National Championship game. You know, forget about if you had Langford. but and I remember I was sitting from Steve Lavin and we did this it was before one of your games early in the season

and I picked you guys to win the Big Ten and I said no agendas I was like this is a great this is going to be a great college basketball team

because I'd see you in Vegas but how now that you've had a chance to kind of decompress and think about it how did it come to be that you guys had this type of year

considering all of the different things which could have caused it to go south. Well, I think what we did is we knew going in that Xavier Tillman was going to be a great player for us. He was having a great summer, changed his body, and he just has an unbelievable feel for the game. And so we knew that Tillman was really going to help us. He is, we use the term Dremont-like. He's Dremont-like on defense in that he makes up. for a lot of mistakes that other players make.

And we knew we had a bunch of really good pieces, but the one thing we couldn't really factor is, is we didn't know who was, we needed people to step up. So we felt like Tillman was going to step up. We felt like, obviously, Langford was going to be better. We weren't sure on McQuaid. or Kenny Goings, and those guys stepped up in a major way. We knew Matt was going to be a great defender.

Matt's one of the best in the country. But he just was so much more confident on offense, and I think part of that was that Josh Langford got hurt, and Matt didn't feel the guilt maybe that it was his time to make a player shoot when he knew he had another elite player. next to him. You know, Nick Ward getting hurt was, was devastating, but it also helped other guys gain confidence and get better. Caches Winston, you know, when Josh went down, that was our other,

that was our third score. You know, you had Cash, Nick, Cassius Winston, Nick Ward, and Josh Langford, we felt we're going to do the bulk of it. So then it forced us to be a little bit more creative with Cassius. And there were times in games where maybe I would be calling something for another player to at least get the ball and it was no

more ball screened for cash. Give cash space, he'll make a play. And so I think that when it's all said and done, how did we hang on and keep getting better? I'll give coaching some credit. I'll give

a lot of credit. But I think in the end, the players bought into what we were doing, Doug, and that is hard to do, especially when you've got McDonald's All-Americans, kids that had a ton of success, kids that are driven to be pros. They bought into what we were doing. I'd say, you're right, if we had Kyle Earns, we probably would have played in that championship game, and that's not to take anything away from Texas Tech.

but that experienced player would make a huge difference because when Aaron Henry got in foul trouble in the first half of that semi-final game we felt like we could play six and a half guys and the half was going to spell was going to give McQuaid a one or two minute break and maybe Cassius a one or two. We couldn't give McQuade a break

and I think it wore McQuade out and I will give Matt McQuade credit credit or Texas Tech credit for that. Could we have played Aaron Henry? With two fouls in the first half, yeah, but that's not really what we do. And we felt like as long as we were close in the game, we didn't need to play them. But maybe that's for another day. No, listen, I mean, I generally would disagree with that philosophy.

I thought it nearly got that same thought. Heard Virginia when they took Diiquite out with two fouls. And then heck in the, they took, he took, he took, he took Ty Jerome out with four fouls, with like five minutes to go against Auburn. And Tyrom has never fouled out of a game. He only had four fouls one of the game this year. You know, they don't foul.

They don't foul. They don't fall or they don't actually. They're like Michigan. They don't get called for foul. Yeah. They don't foul. Well, Coach K put Zion back in in our game and he had two falls. Yeah.

Listen, I think it's very much case-dependent. And I played for a guy who would sit there and go like, well, coach, do you want to leave them in or do you want to take them out? Like, you get five. Stop fouling. Oh, the old poor horse. Yes, it was a very simple philosophy.

You stop fouling or come sit next to me and help me coach. Like, all right. Okay, guess, moving on. But, hey, listen, it was an incredible, incredible year. But you know what? One last thing on, on, I want to do on coach, Coach Knight, because...

Hey, I got time. I got time. No, no, I know. But in terms of a podcast, you don't want it to get, because people will download it more if it's a little bit, you know...

Well, you can splice it up, right? I could splice it up. I don't know if you're worthy of two pods. I don't know that. Oh, no, I was saying you can cut some stuff out. I don't want to cut anything out. It's been freaking good. You can put late in late night

and have me put some people to sleep. What? You know, like, he was on can. campus last week. Obviously he made an appearance and obviously he's got some memory issues that's working. What I feel bad, like I feel like, look, I'm part of the Coach Sutton family. I feel terrible that the image that people have of him now is, you know, in a wheelchair and, you know, unable to, you're unable to feel what it was like. And people are, right?

And am I crazy, but you guys playing against Texas Tech? there's just there was a lot of Bob Knight in how Texas Tech played how they competed you mentioned the defense in the motion in the offense right like if you were to relay amen I can't tell exactly what it would be like if Coach Knight was in his prime but a lot of what it might have looked like was what Texas Tech was like no you know what with the players they had they had men and they had men that were willing to you know lay down their bodies for for the best of the best of betterment of the team. And I was just fascinated with one that their motion. And they didn't run a ton of it against us. No. But I give Coach Beard all the credit, especially with... They got tired, by the way, guarding you guys.

They stopped moving. They kind of stopped running. When you guys made that run the second half, they were gassed. They were tired. Yeah. They were. And I think that, you know, obviously Owens gets hurt with his ankle against us. It's nobody's fault and it's awful to see it happen.

But I think it impacted them for the next game too, you know, against Virginia. And I think that, you know, we did a number on them as they did a number on us. But I think whichever team made it through to Virginia was going to have a tough, tough game for the simple fact that the two teams that played in the second game on Saturday night, it was a war. and, you know, back to Coach Knight, Coach Beard, it's interesting that anybody who runs motion today is, you know, I feel for them, but I admire them. But their toughness, you know, it did. It reminded me of, you know, those Coach Knight's first team, you know, he always talks to first championship team with Quinn Buckner and Scott May and those guys. It was a tough, rugged, one-to-five team.

And I think that, you know, if you get a chance to ask Coachizzo, I think he'll readily admit that that team was tough, if not tougher than us, especially in that game. Yeah, and that rarely happens than Moody made some shot. They just, you know, they made some shots and, you know, playing from behind us. Yeah, and playing from behind is hard. It's just, you know, so much better to play. We did.

Yeah. No, I mean, you guys, you had a run. You had them within grasp. They, they, I talked to those guys afterwards. I was like, you guys stopped running off. And so, like, dude, we were tired. Guarding them is hard. Yeah.

It's funny because, and I mentioned McQuaid being exhausted, you know, that shot he gets in the corner from Aaron Henry. Yeah. Okay. Late in the game, he makes that nine and a half times out of ten. But I think that Henry getting in foul trouble really hurt us. They're not playing Aaron by any sense. McQuade makes that shot nine and a half times out of ten. And he missed it to tie the game.

Toman gets the ball stolen. We're down for a minute and a half. Hey, those guys did a number on us, too. It was a great game. Probably not from a fan's perspective, but... I disagree. I was sitting there watching. I thought it was like watching...

There was like watching four prize, three prize fights. It was, that was fantastic. Yeah, but you're a coach. I don't consider you a fan. You're a coach. I'm not a coach. I don't have a team. You don't have a team?

Well, I have like fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh high school teams. That shit doesn't, not compared to what you guys have. Listen, you've been more than gracious with your time. and I think people at this point, if they've listened this long, they're like, man, these guys should go on and on. We will do a part two at some point this summer. And we'll talk more about Izzo. And I love the stuff about the brain and the mentality. In the meantime, congratulations on an incredible season.

Incredible season. Doug Dugan. I appreciate it. I would love to be Dugan. I'm just such a much cool name than Doug. Thanks for joining me. Yes. Thank you, yeah.

All right. So my thanks to Dane Fife and to Tony Bennett. Virginia is our national champion. And look, with all of the mess, all the mess that has been college basketball, the perception of college basketball. To have Virginia win it where you got legit student athletes and a coach that doesn't cheat and somebody who has just a great balance of having been beaten. by Syracuse when they should have gone to the final four,

by UMBC when they were upset the year before, to then have these miraculous three wins in a row and win a national championship and doing things the right way, I think is great for the sport. I think it's great for the sport. We'll do more recaps on the year. We'll have more coaches on.

We'll turn our focus more also to the NBA upcoming. I really appreciate you downloading, subscribing, and rating the all-ball podcast. Remember to check out the radio show, Doug Gottlieb show Daily, 3 to 6, Eastern time, 12 to 3 Pacific, on Fox Sports Radio, Fox Sports Radio.com, the Iheart radio app as well. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is All Ball.

When you're ready to place a bet on today's games, do it with the most trusted name in online sports betting, Bet Rivers Sportsbook, now legal in several states and growing. BetRivers Sportsbook delivers a unique sports betting experience featuring live streaming sports, in-game wagering, fast authorizations on most withdrawals and gold standard customer service. Go to betrivers.com, see for yourself. must be 21 and be present in Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, and Pennsylvania to play. Gambling problem,

call 1-800 gambler. Get right to the romance and find the way to wow this valentines with 1-800flowers.com. From classic roses and bouquets to decadent chocolate-covered berries, gourmet treats, and more. Surprise your valentine with 1-800flowers.com. Right now, get the 18-stem enchanted rose medley for 399 or upgrade to 24 red roses for $10 more. Go to 1,800flowers.com slash tune in. That's 1,800flowers.com slash tune in.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline.

And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves. their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter.

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness

from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions, about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on.

A Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman. multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last? Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me?

Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed Human.