The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Gottlieb - All Ball - Kyrie will exhaust KD; UCLA Asst. Mike Lewis on coaching with Brad Stevens and playing for Bobby Knight

Episode Date: June 27, 2019

Subscribe here to the All Ball with Doug Gottlieb Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2.  This week, Gottlieb looks at why Kyrie Irving could exhaust Kevin Durant if the two team up, and why the idea that players have to be in New York to be stars is outdated. He also talks with UCLA assistant Michael Lewis on growing up in the Indiana basketball culture, playing for Bobby Knight, coaching under Brad Stevens, and how Mick Cronin plans to revive a dormant to UCLA program. Download, rate and subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts: Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth. And on my podcast, The Clivert Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her.

What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, Rhett, my mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season, and I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was harmed. you just understood.

That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Mark keep coming to her. He's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball.

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Now that's tasty. eBay motors.com. Let's ride. Hey, welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is All Ball. All basketball all the time. We have a lengthy discussion with my man, Mike Lewis. Former Gatorade player of the year in the state of Indiana, but you'll hear an interesting story as far as whether or not he was Mr.

Basketball in the state of Indiana, played for IU, started for four years, got some Bob Knight stories. And then we'll talk about coaching and coaching with Brad Stevens. And what that's really like. Coaching with Tim Miles this last year. Now being an assistant coach at UCLA, plus he played for Rick Berry in the USBL. played against each other. So we got some good stuff going on with Mike Lewis.

He'll join me in a moment. We're less than a week away from the Free Agency Bonanza. And I don't know what to think. You know, this is kind of strangely what we've built up to all year is having nothing to do with actual basketball. I'm torn on the Kyrie Irving thing because I've been somebody who's tried to tell people just how talented he is. But I had no idea how much of a pain in the ass he was. until I talked to some people that were in Boston and people that had been in Cleveland.

And they all kind of say the same thing, which is like, dude, he's amazingly talented. He's not a leader. And he's one of those guys that he's smart enough. It's not like he's a magna cum laude, like, you know, he's a bright enough guy. But he thinks he knows everything. So he tries to look for, you know, higher meaning for every little thing.

He just wants to get like, oh, he just wears people out. and because he was kind of brought up in this under LeBron's wing, that's how you lead. He tries to be LeBron James and eviscerate dudes in film. And he's not LeBron James. And even LeBron, remember when he lights into dudes, which he didn't do this year, this year he would just turn very negative on guys.

He's still been LeBron James and all those guys have been brought in, you know, to play with him, whereas, you know, Kyrie Riverman was brought to the Celtics, and then they played without him. And so it just doesn't have a great feel for the social jiu-jitsu, as a friend of mine says, of the moment. So if I'm Kevin Durant, like, is that the guy I want to tie my ship to? Like, I have a choice of Steph Curry, who's like, look, is Steph easy to play with? Maybe not. He takes some crazy shots.

He turns the ball over. You've got to hide for him defensively. But as a guy, he's easy. Or you got Kyrie Irving, who is a better ball handler, is an incredible shotmaker differently, but does some things actually better than Steph Curry. But it's just every day is heavy. It's not that much fun.

I don't know. I just stay in Golden State. Everybody wants to accomplish all these things off the basketball floor. You know the best way to accomplish things out the basketball floor is win fucking championships. Excuse my language if you have kids listening to this. But this whole idea of, you know, if you go to New York, you can, lots of guys that play in New York, you see any of them on TV? No, you know why their team sucks.

That's why. I see Steph Curry on a bunch of ads. Oakland wasn't some big market. Steph Curry's awesome. That's it. Right? That's it. LeBron James had no trouble getting ads in Akron or in Miami.

Why? Because he's LeBron James. He's awesome. Russell Westbrook has no problem getting ads. Paul George has no problem getting ads. He played in Indianapolis in Oklahoma City. If you're really good and you got a good personality, you have options. Like it is just such a bunch of bullshit that you have to like,

you got to move to New York. Why? Because Rich Climman lives in New York. Like, all right. Like, the perfect example actually is billionaire row for the Golden State Warriors. Why don't have to move to New York when all? the people with all the money, all the game changers, they're right here. Hate to be that guy, but all the game changers in the world are in Silicon Valley.

That's where the money is. Even in our industry, like we're all just waiting to see when Apple or Facebook or Google or Amazon or Yahoo, they just, you know, they just buy something. They're like, all right, we have FU money. Here's FU. Like, they do that. They can buy all of us 10 times over. and you want to move to New York? It's the media capital of the world.

No, it's not. The capital of the world is in Silicon Valley, dude. I hate to be that guy. It's like, this is not the 1990s. It's 2019. All the money is in San Francisco and all the unknown. And yeah, there's some pitfalls to play in Golden State. Might not be your team whenever.

They might only have to call in you to bail them out. You got to play both ends. Gets a little bit old. Okay. I'll tell you what's worse. the monotony of losing, teaching people who have never won, a franchise is never won to win. I just, this whole idea of like, you got to go to New York. Why? Jeremy Lynn had to go to New York because he was a nobody, got an opportunity with a team that was banged up and a co-in and Mike Dan Tony.

You're not Jeremy Lynn, you're Kevin Durant. Stay where you are. Win a bunch of titles. Have the last laugh. By the way, you can listen to my daily radio show, 3 to 6 Eastern or 12 to 3 Pacific on Fox Sports Radio or the IHeart Radio app. All right, let's get you to Mike Lewis. He has just become a new assistant coach at UCLA. He played at Indiana.

He coached at Brett Butler. He coached in Nebraska. He coached Eastern Illinois. He coached to Texas Tech. He coached to Stephen F. Austin. Without further ado, here's my discussion with UCLA assistant, former Indiana player and captain, Mike Lewis. All right, let's start at the beginning, right?

Jasper, Indiana. That's where you were Mr. Basketball in the state of Indiana. you're like you started hooping when like birth right that's that's an Indiana thing you grow up hooping the driveway did you have a half court out back give me the picturesque Indiana setting of Mike Lewis's upbringing I had a basketball goal in the driveway but I was I was lucky to have a have a dad that was a basketball coach in high school he coached in high school and so I was I was lucky enough to tag along the practices and games, and so I was always in a gym.

But, yeah, I mean, everybody in Indiana grows up, you know, there's hoops everywhere. I mean, if you can, if you've got a flat side of the building, you can go to basketball hoop on it in Indiana. So it's obviously a great place to grow up. I was always around the game. My grandfather coach, like I said, my dad coach, my grandfather became the commissioner of the Indiana High School Athletic Association for many years until my junior year of high school when he retired. my dad coached all the way up until my junior year, high school when he became the athletic director at our high school. And so I was just always around the game.

Very fortunate from that aspect, probably like you, just having a dad that allowed you to develop and grow at your own pace as a basketball player. And when you're allowed to grow up that way, you learn to love the game and appreciate everything that the game can give you. Okay, so your dad was the coach of Jasper, your entire, your, as you're, as you're allowed to grow up. your entire upbringing? No, we moved around. I was born in Indianapolis. My dad was an assistant coach at Lebanon High School, just on the northwest side of Indianapolis for a legendary high school coach named Jim Rosensteele,

who coached Rick Mount way back in the day. That's where my dad got his start, and then he became a head coach, Triton Central High School, Bluffton High School, at Frontier High School. And then we moved to Jasper, Indiana when I was going to, in the second grade, and he became the varsity assistant at Jasper and held that position until he became the athletic director of my junior year high school. So he wasn't the head to? We moved around.

We moved around. I was, actually, the funny story is I grew up in Purdue fan. When I was a little kid, I went to Purdue basketball camps, and I worked camps as a counselor all the way up until I got into high school. And then obviously Jasper from the southwestern part of Indiana, and you're in, you're in in IU culture, and that's when it became pretty apparent. I was going to go to Indiana if I had a chance. Why did you like Purdue?

Because everybody else like Indiana was one of those things? Yeah, I mean, Frontier High School was 20 minutes from Cruz campus. I spent a majority of my younger years up until second grade. I was in northern Indiana. And at that time, like, you didn't have, you know, ESPN wasn't big. You got Channel 4. and so you saw the games on TV at that time, and in Indiana, you got Purdue in Indiana, and off football Saturdays, you got Notre Dame.

So I just grew up around Purdue basketball up until second grade when we moved to Southwestern Indiana. And, you know, I was able to, my dad worked to camps. I would go with him. I got to be a counselor at a young age, and just kind of had that. And then obviously things changed as I got older. Okay, so you're in high school. So your dad wasn't the varsity head coach?

No, he was the assistant coach. So, and then when did you start playing varsity? I started playing at the freshman. I started as a freshman in high school. I played my first game, I played three quarters of JV, one game of varsity. My second game, I played one quarter of JV, three quarters of varsity, and then I played the Reds varsity. So I was actually I actually had a teammate, high school teammate named Scott Rowland, who obviously is of Major League Baseball fame.

So he was a senior when I was a freshman. And, you know, it was a pretty good time. A lot of people don't realize Roland was what a great basketball player. He was an Indian all-star, signed a scholarship of Georgia. And then obviously I think he made the right decision by pursuing baseball. But outstanding high school player. Your childhood hero was who? Damon Bailey

Okay What town did they I know the legend of Damon Bailey And this is like That you're going to have a distinct cutoff Between anybody our age And anybody like five years younger Probably doesn't

Right like I just We're just being kind of honest And it was because of It's because of a season on the brink really Where Yes When Steve Alford was there Who was all everything

All anybody could talk about Was Damon Bailey He committed to Indiana as like a freshman And it was kind of of looming over everybody's head that Damon Bailey's coming. So take me through the Damon Bailey thing. He grew up where? He grew up in Bedford.

Well, actually, a small town just outside of Bedford, but he went to Bedford North Lawrence High School. I mean, it's kind of hard to explain if you weren't growing up, or if you weren't in Indiana at that time. I mean, he was like the Beatles. I mean, everywhere he went, every gym was sold out, every game was sold out. he would just get mobbed everywhere he went.

And a lot of it was, you know, because of the season on the brink book and the notoriety that he got from that when Coach Knightwin watched him as an eighth grader. But he, I mean, and then he had a great high school career. Had a really good college career, but just, you know, I mean, who can live up to the expectations of what was put on him at that time. But he was everything to anybody in Indiana at that time, you wanted to grow up and be Damon Bailey. And then, you know, the Pacers had started to get rolling as I got into junior high.

And so, you know, then I guess, you know, my second childhood hero would be Reggie Miller, which is kind of ironic. Now you're sitting on a campus where he wants to walk around. I was this ball boy a couple times because I was, I grew up playing with the Hazard Boys, with Doc Hazard and with Jalil and Rashid Hazard. And so Rashid and I, we'd go be ball boys. And like, here's what people don't know about Reggie. He was an unbelievable college player as a shooter.

But they were terrible. They were massive underachievers. Like, for years, they had so much skill. But he, Poo Richardson, Charles Rochelin, like, they had a squad. And I remember going to, like, NIT games. And I was like, how are these guys? in the NIT when they're at UCLA, it's just kind of a,

it's kind of one of the things that gets glossed over a little bit, but that is ironic. So, but the NIC was much bigger at that time, you know, but I, I remember, well, I was, I was in the 60s, dude, or 70s. I'm talking mid-80s. Yeah, I know. So we're talking, we're talking mid-80s.

UCLA in the mid-80s in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, uh, in the, in the, uh, Fresno State and the Red Wave, that's not exactly what they were thinking. Well, they beat the – I know they beat the Hoosiers in that, but I was an Indiana All-Star in 1996, after I graduated high school, and we were working out in Indianapolis since we're getting ready to play Kentucky, and, you know, Reggie was doing an individual workout on – well, there's a little workout facility. I mean, not even sure it's still there. It was on IUPUI's campus, which is where we were practicing.

And he was kind of finishing up a workout. And obviously, you've got 12 Indiana high school players, you know, there. And so we, you know, they brought Reggie over and introduced this. And we actually got to play, you know, a small pickup game, you know, with him, you know, which I'm sure at that time was a highlight of many of our guys' careers, you know, to step on a floor and play against Reggie back in 1996 when he was ripping and roaring for the Pacers. So, you know, when you grow up in Indiana, you're not Euro, you're a Purdue fan, you're an Indianapolis Colts fan, and you're an Indiana Pacer fan.

And so to be able to step on a floor with him as a high school player at that time, you know, what's huge for all of us. Yeah, in fairness, his senior year, they did win the Pac-10. They had Poo Richardson was a sophomore. They had him Poo-Ritchson, a guy named Trevor Wilson, who was like an energizer bunny. Greg Foster was a freshman. Jack Haley was there. My boy, Kevin Walker was like a 6-11 shooter

who'd be like a first-round draft pick as a stretch five nowadays. So they had a squad, but there were a couple years there which are a little murky early on when he was at UCLA. All right, so your senior year, you were Mr. Basketball.

Was Gatorade Player of the Year? Is that the same as Mr. Basketball? Actually, I was Gatorade Player of the Year. I was runner-up on Mr. Basketball. A guy named Kevin All who went to Warsaw. high school in northern Indiana and went and played at Southwest Missouri State. It's now Missouri State in the Missouri Valley.

Actually, it was recruited by Steve Alford at Missouri State. He won Mr. Basketball. I came in second. There was a really good player named Geron Cornell is going to Purdue that finished under that. And honestly, looking back, there was a guy at New Albany High School that may have been the best player in Indiana. that year named Lamont Rowland. And he had gone to ball state, gotten in some trouble, went to junior college route, and then finish his career at LSU.

But when you get into practices and you get into competing, I mean, you know how it is, like, guys stand out. And Lamont may have been the most talented player in our class at that time. But no, I was runner up. I was runner up to Mr. Basketball. Not that it still kind of sticks in my crawl a little bit. I know. I know.

No, so, so, and it should. Here's, this is funny. So, you know,

like, I'll tell you, I was, we had, we had, we had rankings, we had the best in the West rankings. Um,

and a guy who was, there was a guy ahead of me. I don't know from San Diego. I'd never actually heard of, I think he panned out, uh, flamed out at San Diego State. But the guy who was like ranked behind me,

who I never played against was Jason Terry. And I was like, who's Jason Terry from Seattle. Washington. And the jet actually committed. He was going to Udub and then he changed his mind and went to Arizona. I remember for a long time, be like, dude, that guy, I've never even heard of him. Obviously now, you know, fast forward.

I'm an idiot. He's an awesome player. And then for me, it was my second time around after I transferred from Notre Dame and I sat out for a year. Kansas took Ryan Robertson was there. And Ryan Robertson was McDonald's All-American. ahead of me. And like, look, the magic's roundball thing I got to play in,

Chauncey Billups was there, I was a replacement for Chauncey got hurt, and there's Stefan Marbury. There's one of the guy, Brian Williams went to Alabama, I thought that was better then. But Ryan Robertson, like, I always had like this personal vendetta against him because I was like, man,

how could they take him at Kansas instead of me? And then I was like, he's actually really good. He played in the NBA. Yeah. He's actually a pretty good deal. I think it all works out. It all works out. Yeah, it does.

You brought up... No, Johnsonville. There's no question. I remember... I've never... Go ahead. No, you go ahead. I've never.

I've never felt more helpless on a basketball court than when I had to guard Chonsie Billups. So the first round of the NCAA tournament, my freshman year, I think we're like a eight seed. They're a nine seed. You know, we kind of have a little bit of the IU elitist, you know, thoughts like who's, you know, Colorado, you know, blah, blah, blah. Then we go in and they smoke us.

they smoke us and you know I mean Chonty was just like he was just so strong so under control you know I'm a freshman and and he did I mean I think he gave me like 34 35 I'm still a matter of fact I'm still

waiting on some checks from Choncy because I think he was about a mid to late first round pick and then the NCAA tournament after he he dropped us off at IU and he got into the lottery so I'm still hoping maybe to meet up with him maybe he'll give me a little bit of that extra money I didn't feel

so bad years later once he, you know, became the NBA finals MVP. But I was, I've never, it's a terrible feeling. I'm sure we've all had it, but I've never felt more helpless on a basketball court than trying to guard him. Chonsie Vibov's had played 32 minutes, only at 24 points. It sounds like 44. It does, yeah, right? That's funny.

That's really funny. Yeah. Here's my, here's my, here's my, here's my, here's my Choncy story was he came out, I'm going to say he was a junior. And there used to be these events the pumps would put on at Cal State Dominguez Hills. And I don't remember who he usually played with, but everyone had heard of Chauncey. He was like the best guard in the West of United States. And so he came and he stayed at my house and like, you know, we played together for a weekend.

It was a good tournament. Maybe it was for like a week during the summer. And it was like the first week of summer before you go to Vegas, he played with us and stayed at our house. We practiced for a couple days. And I just remember like my dad was my dad Yeah like I always played point for my dad My dad was like you know you can let Chonsie Bring it whenever he wants

Which was my dad's way of saying like He's so much better than you And in fairness like Choncy was You know and he was a scoring guard Where I was obviously even at that level like a facility Last night a blown call changed a game This morning the internet lost its mind Highlights are trending opinions are flying

And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kier Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in.

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What's up, fam, it's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs.

I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. that man, hell get the flying, he running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball.

Like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth.

And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff, like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, Hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Quarterback on office blue 42.

Hey, rec, my mama wants you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Tater, but, um, but I, I just, I remember playing and it's, it's one of those, you have those moments when you're on a basketball floor and you're, and you're just like, oh, that guy is going to play in the NBA. And, and I grew, and in, and in Southern California, like, you had a sense that, you know, was Paul Pierce or Ricky Price or I grew up, J.R. Henderson was on my team, Miles Simon. You always thought like those guys were really good, but there was an, there was like this calm elegance to the way he played that is a very unique style. Like, other. guys, they're just a, when I was at Georgetown, when I was at Notre Dame, we played Georgetown. And like, Iverson was just a physical freak because he was fast and quick.

He wasn't, he wasn't very good, but he's fast and quick. And so it just made him like, holy shit, you just hope he misses. But there was, there was no kind of uniqueness to his style. It was just a blur. Whereas Chauncey, I mean, he was like 16 years old. And he just, he felt like an NBA veteran. Like, he knew everything about everywhere where everyone was supposed to be. He was so, and he made shots. He was so good. Betrivers Sportsbook wants to invite you to discover the complete sports betting experience. The foundation of that experience is a massive number of betting options on nearly every regulated sporting event around the world.

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You know, you get Mr. basketball's name, and then you normally have 12 Indiana All-Stars. And, you know, it's just a huge deal in Indiana to finish your high school career and an Indiana All-Star to be able to say you were an Indiana All-Star. And back when I was in it, it was a two-week deal. You met up, you practiced for a week, you had a little exhibition game, you would play the Kentucky All-Star team. and we played them in Lexington on U.K.'s campus, and then you would have another week of practice,

and then you would come to Indianapolis, and we played them in, then you would play the Kentucky All-Star team again, and we played them in Market Square Arena. It was just a huge series, a lot of pride between both states, and it was just a great honor, and I think it's something that, you know, I still remember. I'm sure anybody that's been a part of that experience is something that they remember, and the ones that got maybe shunned a little bit.

I think it's something that sticks with them for some time, you know, that they hold on to, you know. And he's just like the young guy at Belmont that Dylan Wendler that just got, you know, who was the first round draft, he did not make the Indian All-Star team. And I just read an article the other day about the mistake that was made on him. And I think it's something that he used as motivation as he got into college to prove some people wrong. So it's just an unbelievable honor, you know, to grow up in a state where basketball means so much and then to be recognized at the end of your career and then they all starting to compete

and represent your state against Kentucky. Some of it is hindsight, though, right? Like, sometimes guys become better players. Like, that's one of the things we do a bad job in the media of. Like, I don't know what Dylan Linder look like when he was a high school senior, but some guys just get better and some guys don't get, some guys top out,

or some guys go mental, or some guys discover girls, you know, women when they get to college, you know? So I And early hype doesn't help these kids The early hype You know Almost hinders some of these kids Like when I was

When I was an assistant coach of Butler We would tell the Gordon Hayward story all the time Like at the end of Gordon Hayward's junior year of high school He wasn't considered one of the top 20 players In his grade In Indiana And three years later He's the eighth pick in the world

Like I mean how do you You know One he physically matured And he worked on his game. He developed. He was in the right situation where he experienced some success. He was in the right situation where he was able to play and contribute right away. And then things just snowballed.

And he became the eighth pick in the draft. And it's an unbelievable story that in three years, you're not even top 20 in your own state and your own age group. And three years later, you know, you're a lottery pick. You know, so I think a lot of that early hype sometimes can hurt kids. And then, you know, other kids, like, people develop at different times, and they just continue to work and work. Alfonso McKinney is, you know, with the Warriors. Everybody likes to talk about Alfonso McKinney.

I was on the staff at Eastern Illinois when we recruited it. I was one of the coaches that was part of the staff that didn't. He wasn't even in our top eight or nine as freshman year at Eastern Illinois. You know, we knew we had this kid that had an unbelievable athleticism. He was an unbelievable kid. You're trying to figure out ways to play him. And, you know, now he's contributing on a team. went all the way to the NBA final.

So everybody's got their unique story. I love reading about those. But like what you said, people develop at different times and mature at different times. And some people work and some people sit back and think about how good they are. Totally. No, I mean, I use that with my own son where he wasn't an all-star in baseball last year. And this year he is. And he even has some ups and downs.

And I was like, look, dude, you got to look at how much you've improved. You know, and last year I would play him up in AAU, not a high level of AU, but like I basically couldn't let him handle the ball because he'd lose it so much. One, because he just coming from Connecticut to California, it's such a big jump. And then he's playing against older kids and he just didn't have it. So now he's able to, you know, bring the ball up against older competition and do a decent job, you know. And then when he plays against his own age group, he's pretty good. And, you know, but it's hard because you don't want to kill a kid's confidence. But the other hand, you want to teach them that it's not about how good you are.

it's about how much better you have gotten since yesterday and how much better you can get kind of tomorrow. All right, you show up at Indiana. This is 1996, right? I think you only had like, I remember that team. You only had one senior, right? Wasn't Harris Mazzinovich, the only, like, senior you had on that team?

It was a really young team for a Bob Knight team, wasn't it? Yeah, we had a group of juniors and a group of freshmen that, you know, I think we're heavily, relied on. At that time, you know, at that time, you know, the junior class was very highly regarded, you know, with Andre Patterson and Neil Reed and Charlie Miller. You know, Jason Collier was in our class,

who was a McDonald's All-American. AJ Guyton was very under-recruited, but ended up being the best player. I mean, he ended up as a senior was the first team All-American. But we started three freshman and two, juniors, our first game that year, against Connecticut and the Hoosier Dome in front of 35,000. So it was, you know, from me growing up in Indiana and watching that and being able to be a part of that and obviously getting a start in your first collegiate game was pretty exciting for me.

What's that like to run out? You got candy striped pants on, a white Indiana jersey. Like, honestly, I mean, do you, what is that feeling like to be in a locker room and to see your number, candy striped pants, and you're running out at the Hoosier Dome against Yukon. Yeah, I mean, it's one of the really cool experiences, you know, of my life, because you grow up, you know, it's like, you know, what you envision growing up out here. You know, you envision growing up out here and then running out in Pauley in a UCLA uniform. Like, it's the same thing, just where I grew up. But yeah, it was an unbelievable experience. You know, at that

time recruiting was much different. If you had an opportunity, if you were in Indiana and you had an opportunity to play at IU, that's where you were going. And there was really no other options. You know, like they had first rider refusal, you know, much like I think UCLA has had out here for a number of years and something that we need to get back to now that we're out here. It's just kind of where you grew up. That's what you saw. It's what you were used to. And so obviously it meant a lot to me to put the uniform on and represent Indiana. That's dope, man. That's really, really cool.

What was, did Coach Knight do a home visit? No, man. My recruiting, I might have been one of the easiest recruits of all time. Like, I started getting recruited by them. My sophomore year of high school. And when I stay recruited, they invited myself and my dad, my high school coach, to a game. And we went up to a game. and then my junior year

I kind of had like I lived an hour and a half away from from Bloomington so I kind of could come up anytime I wanted any any game I wanted and it got to a point you know I would I would take a buddy or you know I'd take a girlfriend or

you know sometimes my mom and dad would go with me and they were playing Minnesota late late in the year and back when Minnesota had Bishon Leonard and I was called up told them I was coming to a game and, you know, Coach Dockech, she was like, hey, why don't you bring your mom and dad up?

You know, so mom and dad came with me on this trip, and they got beat by Minnesota, which did not happen. I mean, Indiana didn't lose in Assembly Hall very often during that time period. And so we were just going to go home. Like, we know how things, you know, could get after a loss. And we were going to go home, and Doc Hage came out, said, no, no, coach wants to talk to you once you guys stick around. And so I remember sitting down in what they called the Players Lounge. There was no lounge part of it. It was just kind of a room with a TV and three chairs.

And we sat in there for what seemed like an hour. And Coach Knight finally walked in with his longtime media buddy Bob Hamill. And Doc Keith was there. And Coach had his sweater off and his collar was half up on one side and down on the other. And he were all disheveled, you know. And he sat out and he said, Like I'm going hunting tomorrow. Do you know anywhere I can shoot birds down and around Jasper?

And I'm 16 years old, Doug. Like, I don't, I've never been hunting in my life. Like, I had no idea. I think, you know, so I kind of like, coach, I don't know. I mean, I've got some buddies that do some hunting. I can probably help you out, but I really don't. I wouldn't know where to tell you to go. And he kind of took a deep breath, and he said, you want to play ball here?

And I said, yep. And he stood up and he shook my mom and dad's hand, shook my hand, put his hand on my shoulder and said, all right, boy, I'll see you later. walked out and that was that was my commitment story. My mom and dad we walked all the way out to the car and we get to the car

and my dad started up and before we take off, and like nobody had said a word up until that point he's like, what just happened? I said, I think I'm going to Indiana and that was it late in my junior year of high school and you know, so that was I don't think I was really

heavily recruited by them, but it worked out for everybody in the end. So that was my recruiting, so I think he'll probably one of the easiest one. But he did get, he did get Brian Evans on the phone call and said, yeah, you want to kind of hit him with the same thing. You won't play a ball here. And Brian, so I'd like to talk to my mom and dad. I think coach said I'll call you back in 30 minutes. So he called him back in 30 minutes. It was done. And Brian Evans was an NBA player and Big Ten player of the year.

So that's just how it was back then. It was a different time. The recruiting services weren't out. You know, the TV was different. Social media wasn't around, and so I think recruiting was much more regionalized. All right, I'll tell you my UCLA story now. So because there are UCLA people that think I still, like, have it in for UCLA. So my dad had UCLA season tickets since really, I think not farmer, when Walhazard was there. And so we would go and what he would do is he would, you know, either give away or sell a lot of the kind of average

games and we always go to the Arizona game. They played Duke one year when they was both their top 10 teams. It was an unbelievable atmosphere. And we would go and, you know, if they played, you know, Oregon State was good back then, Arizona State. We'd go to a, you know, we go to a couple weekend games, a couple of weeknight games. And as I kind of got, and then Herrick took over and my dad was pretty close with Herrick. And he coached in a select kind of all-star game against the Russians. he coached Mitchell Butler and Tracy Murray, part of an unbelievable recruiting class that went there. And so they never, and then my sister was a cheerleader there, and she's, uh, she's 19, she's like five years older than me, really.

So I was always there. Like I didn't go to practice, uh, much every once in a while. But, you know, it's like 45 minutes hour from my house. But I go to some games and the way, it's kind of same thing with like unofficial visits. So it might have been because we had season tickets. It was likely because I wasn't that good, right? Like I was a, because I stayed back, I was like a late bloomer. And most of the guys I grew up playing with were class of 94, which is an awesome class in the state of California.

That's Toby Bailey, J.R. Henderson, Miles Simon, J. Jalani Gardner, Kristen Johnson, a bunch of dudes. So I remember, like, they weren't, they didn't offer me. and the summer before when I was rising junior, the first day of summer is when they came out with like initial offers back then. So they offered Toby Bailey, first day of summer, he took the scholarship.

And the way it worked then was we had, there was like three different big AU programs. ARC, Mid Valley, that was like Cameron Murray played on that team. That was like mostly kids from the valley in surrounding areas. There was slam and jam, Victoria Park. That was Ricky Price and Toby Bailey. and later Tremaine folks who went to Cal than Fresno State. And then there's our team, which was, you know, Team Orange County.

And we had J.R. Harrison from Bakersfield. We had Adam Walton that's Bill's oldest son. And then we had a bunch of Orange County kids as well. And it's a couple of L.A. kids that were like under the radar. And so there was kind of a rivalry there, right? So like we didn't like, we didn't like Toby then, you know. It was weird. It's like, you know, in every tournament in the semifinals and finals of every tournament,

it's the same guys you're playing against. and this is since, like, sixth grade. Like, no, I didn't fucking like Toby Bailey. I didn't like, you know, the O'Bannon boys who were there. Like, we wanted to beat them. Like, now we're supposed to play in the same team? Like, so weird. So Miles got pissed.

And then, you know, he ends up going to Arizona. And so, and I kind of wanted to, like, you know, like, UCLA basketball on TV is big. But there was times, you know, locally just got swallowed up by the Lakers and other stuff. And I don't know. The facilities weren't great back then. And so I kind of was, I had a one. I always wanted to play at Duke. So I went to a game during my junior year against Cal.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending. Opinions are flying. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where sports slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise.

Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete, the athlete, the music. themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 and the TikTok

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What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast, Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this. series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nass would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers while he got the ball, like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah. You figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court.

and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee.

We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42. Dude. Hey, Wreck,

my mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. UCLA Cow and all these other guys that were seniors that had committed to going there were there. So J.R. Henderson is my teammate.

And Chris Don Johnson is my teammate. Like, we go to the game together. We meet up at the game. And my seats are so fucking high that the concession made. won't go up there. Like, you know, I want to be a big baller and go to the player, you know, get the player tickets even though we had season tickets. And I told my dad, like, don't worry about it.

I got their, the team's leaving me tickets. So they like, so they like scramble and they get me seats next to the rest of the guys. I was like, what the fuck? I'm way up. This is bullshit. So now I'm sitting with these guys. And then they send some manager out at halftime to listen to Herrick's halftime speech and they don't get me.

And I mean, it was like the, and my sister's like performing at the half or whatever. And I was like, okay, I guess I know where I stand there, you know? So then fast forward to summer of my, that next summer, summer my senior year, I'm at the, I'm at the Las Vegas Hilton. And Jim Herrick calls me, he's like, Dougie, you know you always want to be a Bruin. And I was like, and I was kind of a dick then. I said, not then. I'm against you now. And I was like, well, coach, in all honesty, I always wanted to play a Duke, but they took Wojo last year.

They took Wojo. So, and Wojo was like a year ahead of me. And so he's. said, well, we're offering you a scholarship to UCLA. You're like, you won't play ball for us? It was kind of same sort of question, you know, and I'm sure he thought, this is a layup. Kid grew up dreaming of playing at UCLA, and I was like, well, you know, I want to take a visit, I want to think about it, I want to see what else is, you know.

I mean, I love how you guys play. And they had taken a commitment from a game named Illusion Me Man, who was like 6, 4, 65, your class, like best player in America type kid. And he was like, you know, he'll never qualify. He's not really a UCLA guy, but he's so talented. We got to take him. We play five guys, five best players. UCLA high post offense, not the only offense, just the best.

So there was so, I was so bitter over not being recruited, whatever. And, you know, they wrote me, Mark Adford did a great job. And Lorenzo Romar did a great job. And they called me. I never forget. So I took an unofficial up there. And it was still kind of weird because, again, like Toby was a freshman there. and um yeah i'd like i barely knew tyos edny who was a senior on that team ed was there was a senior

uh charles was there and i just i don't know i just i didn't get a great vibe and so i was like eh so i call coach herrick and tell him i'm going to notre dame and godfrey calls me he goes i'm a promise you something now we play we play you all like december 22nd of 1995. Not only were you going to come in and whoop your ass. He's like, but it's going to be so fucking cold that you're going to beg us to come back. And I was like, he goes, he goes, but you know, we love you. And my sister had been his babysitter, whatever.

So, yeah, I mean, and then my, when I left Notre Dame, they recruited me, but they're like, look, we're going to take Baron if we can get Baron. And if we don't get Baron, right? So, so I'm not bitter over that one because, I mean, if you, take me ahead of Baron Davis, you're the worst evaluator of talent in all of sports. But, I mean, honestly, the first time around, it was my choice, and they took a dude named Brandon Lloyd, who was, who should have gone to Oklahoma State from Oklahoma. They didn't get Steph. They thought they were going to get Steph, and if I was probably

their fallback, like, well, we'll get Gottlieb. And I went to Notre Dame. And so they took Brandon Lloyd, who never really panned out at UCLA. Anyway, that's my UCLA story. These days, it can be hard to find and hire the right candidates for your small business. That's why LinkedIn jobs made it easier to find the people you want to talk to you, faster and for free. Create a job post in minutes on LinkedIn jobs to reach your network and beyond to the world's largest professional network of over 770 million people. Focus on candidates with the skills and experience you need.

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So just don't take a vacation. Rise to the vacation. Come seek the Royal Caribbean. Visit royal Caribbean.com to learn more. All right. So let's get to IU. Yeah. I looked it up and you guys started out 13 and 1, right?

Like your only loss was to Kentucky. You guys beat Notre Dame. You guys beat Duke. You guys beat Princeton was good back then. you talked about the Yukon game, you'd be Yukon. Like, you guys were rolling. What was it like? You're like a freshman, you had to be like, this is easy, this

is cake. It's like when you get all that hype as a young player, like you know, you've got to be able to stay in the moment and try to get better and better. But, you know, it's like like any major program, when you're winning at a high level, at a place like

Indiana, when you're winning at a high level, you know, at a place like UCLA or Carolina or Duke or Kentucky, Like, it's everything that you imagine, you know, it can be. Like, you're walking on water. Everywhere you're going, you walk in a restaurant. You know, people are standing up and clapping and wishing you well and all those sorts of things. And, you know, it's what I think is so cool about the college basketball experience.

Like, you know, I tell kids in recruiting all the time, like, I absolutely loved my experience at Indiana. Now, every day it wasn't. teddy bears and rainbows, you know, but it's not, it doesn't matter where you go. It's not going to be. But my experience prepared me for what I'm doing now. And I want the guys that I get the opportunity to coach and be around. I want them to feel about their experience, the way that I feel about mine. I think if they do that, you know, then my job as a coach has been successful. And I love my time at Indiana. Part of, you know, Indiana basketball is a major part of who I am down to my core.

And I loved it. I would do it again in a heartbeat. And that's, that's, I understand the way that I feel, Doug, about, about my time. And that's what, you know, that's what I want these guys here at UCLA to feel about UCLA and their experience here when, when their time here is done. That's how I want the guys that I coached at Butler to feel about Butler, you know, now that they're away. And there's nothing cooler about, you know, being a coach and then, you know, getting phone calls

from former players asking for help for jobs called from former players inviting you to their weddings or calling you to talk to that, hey, coach, my wife's due to have a baby boy here in three months. You know, those are the really cool experience and that's the experience that I had where I played and that's what I want for these guys that I come in contact with.

Yeah, it's really interesting. I'll tell you the thing about social media, and you don't have to agree with it. you can feel free to discuss it. But I do think that we, whether it's expectations, and I got to be cautious of this with my own kid, you know. Expectations or, you know, coaches are always the bad guys. NCA is always the bad guys.

Whatever it is. Like I don't know. I still think it's a very high percentage, but I don't know if it's nearly as high a percentage of people that get it. Like, look, everybody takes the floor. Like, real dudes like me, like, like real thoughtful, reasonable people. You take a basketball floor and you can pick out which guys could really play in the NBA.

Like you and I probably thought like, you know what, if we got the right situation where somebody needs our skill set, somebody enjoys our leadership, you know, you put me in the right spot like, yeah, why couldn't I be the third point guard in the NBA? There's like no doubt. Like I know what I could do. But you just, you got to be, you got to get one team, one guy at one team that believes in you that gives you the right opportunity, the right amount of minutes in the summer league, signs you to a guarantee, you hang on for a year.

and then you kind of become an NBA player. But, but, you know, most of us look around and, like, you can tell who's a fucking pro and who's not, right? There's this sense where if you're not going to make it as an NBA player at your current school, go somewhere else. And so there's not, I think, as high a percentage of people that truly understand and enjoy the experience during the experience. Am I making sense?

Like, that's what he created. Like, oh, you're not playing? Well, fucking go. the coach is never going to play you, they're going to recruit over you, leave, go to another school. And part of the amazing part about college basketball is guy comes in, and you and I got to start his freshman, so this is different. But a lot of guys, they come in, and they don't get the role they want, and they leave, whereas it's way better if you earn the role you want at the place you originally enrolled in. No, you're dead on. I tell people all the time, and you've got to have good adults around the young person,

but when you're talking to a recruit, they're so self-absorbed in what they're doing. They all want to go to the NBA. And a lot of them, you know, when you're at a place like UCLA, a lot of them, you know, that may be in their future. But you also got to look at college. It's not a three- or four-year decision. When you're choosing a university, it's a 30 or 40-year. decision. And I believe that if whether you're at UCLA for one or two years and you're able to

go to the NBA or if you're here for 40 years, because you're always going to fall back on that time period in your life, and you're going to go back to those people to help you with whatever's next after basketball is over. So that's why I say it's a 30 or 40-year decision. I think that's why I'm so lucky to be in a place like UCLA, because not only does it have the basketball tradition and all the great players and the coaches and everything that comes with it. But you're also sitting on this campus with all the unbelievable people that are associated with this university and all the alumni that are associated with it. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

Those guys, and those guys are super tight, like even the ones, you know, the, the Herrick guys, the ones that play for LAV, like they still get together. I mean, look, you got Bob Myers is the GM of the freaking Warriors, right? There's a connection. You got people in, you know, you got Hollywood types. It's really interesting how, but we have such a narrow sight of what college football represents. Like if you go to social media, if you ask people who cover the game in my position, college basketball is only there as a way station for the pros.

Like, that's not it, dude. You get, it's the people you're around are going to be the powers in business wherever you go to school. People have a bigger reach. Like you go to Indiana. Like when you got done playing in Indiana, if you didn't want to become a basketball coach, you could have gone into sales anywhere you wanted in the state because you were point guard at IU. All right.

And that's what it gets overlooked. And that's what we got to get back to. That's why I'm excited to be at a place like this, because everything it has the offer, not just from a basketball standpoint, but just like anything you want to accomplish, you can get done here because the people that have been here are currently here. You know, and I think that's a special opportunity. Okay, tell me about. Ben Halland, hold on, Ben Hallin.

Never talked to me when I was a player. I mean, I wasn't good enough to get recruited. He's never talked to me as a player. Okay, I've competed against his teams twice when I was at Nebraska, okay, and got nothing more than the handshake on the handshake line. I'm at the NBA Top 100 camp two weeks ago, and I got UCLA on my chest, and we chatted it up for five minutes with his staff and my staff. You know, just because I got UCLA on my chest.

I mean, I've been around the guy, competed against the guy, and I was just a dude, right? But now I got UCLA on my chest, and now, you know, it's like what you said, the connection of the part of the family, these guys are tight, and it was really cool to be able to talk with him for a few moments a couple weeks ago. Okay, so take me to the, you are famous for a lot of things. You're probably most famous for the guy who stared down Coach Knight, right? It was, what year was it? It was Super Tuesday, and you're playing Michigan, and I've seen the play multiple times

where somebody from Michigan drives to the basket, and you should be the help man to take the charge instead. you're like fronting in the low post and a guy drives right up your butt and lays the ball in. Okay, so was that one of the, was that one of the Fife boys? Was that like Dane Fifee who drove up your,

like I'm trying to think of years? No, it was, his first name was Robbie. I forget his last name. Oh, oh, oh, oh, Robbie Reed. Yeah, Robbie Reed, I believe. Robbie Reed, his dad was the coach at BYU. So Robbie Reed drives up and you're,

and you don't see the ball and Coach Knight lays into you. I can give me, what, What year is this? What year are you in school? I'm a sophomore. I'm a sophomore. Like you said, we're playing Michigan, and, you know, I was out of position by our defensive rules. But, you know, we had walked through the day before.

I mean, Michigan was really good. I mean, they had, you know, Robbie, they had Macy O'Baston, tractor trailer, Maurice Taylor, Lewis Bullock. I mean, they were good now. And so I'm going to. It was an expensive team right there. I believe they were over the cap for

that was not a cap friendly team that's really what happened they weren't put on NCAA probation they were over the cap so that's that's right right Gerard Ward hold I'll tell you real quick

Gerard Ward was on that team this is the famous Gerard Ward story okay Gerard Ward visits UCLA he's like the number one wing in the country and he visits UCLA and the O'Bannon guys are like the nicest dude, classiest dudes ever.

So Charles O'Bannon shows him around campus. And this is back when UCLA was picking dudes, right? Yeah. And so Gerard Ward would tell people that he's, I'm going to be better than Michael Jordan. And he believed it coming out. Dead on believed it. So,

So, Gerard Ward, he gets done with his visit UCLA, and he's like, tells Charles a man, you can ask Charles when he comes to one of his events. Hey, man, man, thanks for being so nice to me. I don't know why you were. I'm going to come and take your job. So whatever.

That was like his last words to the UCLA players. Like, thanks for being nice to me, but I was going to come take your job. And that team was, that was after they fired the staff, right? Because they got caught cheating. But it was, they still, I mean, Lou Bullock, Robert Traylor, Gerard Ward, Macy O'Baston, Robbie Reed,

Brandon Smith, who transferred play for my brother. That was an expensive team. Okay, so Robbie Reed drives up your backside. You're not in help. Oh, I'm not in help, but we, and walk through, they, you know, they're running America's play, you know, the cross-screen downscreen. Crossing down-screen, yep.

Yeah, so, you know, Lewis Bullock's got a cross-screen on the baseline for tractor-trailer, and then he's getting a downscreen for Maurice, You know, and so, you know, when walk through, I just kind of bump the cutter and chase whoever was mimicking Lewis Bullock up the middle, you know, to make sure I'm there when he catches for his three. And, you know, coach explains to me that tractor trailer is like 270 pounds and he's going to knock me across, you know, into the bleachers if I don't, you know, really chuck him and, you know, and then just chase like hell up to the top, make sure you're there on the catch, you know, for Lewis. and so the play comes, I'm sniffing it out, so I turn my back, and I mean, back in, you could you could really physically bump cutters, like now you can't really do it, and so I, two forearms in the tractor's chest, I'm trying to bump him, and then I'm just going to take off running, well, Robbie beats the, I forget, you know who was guarding Robbie, just beats him,

and he's laying it up right over, right over my shoulder, and so coach gets up and informs me that I was in the wrong defensive position. I said, excuse me, Coach. So we see the screen. We see it on TV, no, but what did you really say? I'm not sure. I think we'd probably exchanged a few pleasantries, and we moved on. You know, the thing about that whole event, Doug, is like that happened, it was captured on TV

because it was coached. It became a huge story. We go down the other end, there was a whistle, so we come out to a TV timeout, and that's, you know, when what you're talking about happens. And I sit out, he takes me out for about a minute and a half. He talked to me very calmly on the bench, and then I went on and played, and him and I never really talked about it again. And honestly, from that point on, I think, at least from my standpoint,

our player-coach relationship grew immensely over the next two and a half years. Because you stood up for yourself a little bit? I don't know if it was that or if he just felt like he had somebody that he could trust and believe to help try to lead the team the way that he wanted it done. I don't know, but from that point on, our relationship was unbelievable over the next two and a half years of my career. But, you know, it's a thing that happens, unfortunately, in a heat of a moment with some competitive guys. We've all seen it. It would have been better if it would have been at halftime and behind closed doors. But it happened when it happened, and him and I never talked about it again.

You were his last point card, right? Because we were getting ready to play you guys. We were getting ready to play you guys. You got beat by Pepperdine. Yeah. Well, you're bringing up all the great memories. No, I'm, well, I mean, okay, so I'll get to it. Then we'll do that.

Best memory of playing at IU. I just, I mean, I don't know, I can't name one. I think just, like I said, the way that I feel about my, like sitting here today in my office at UCLA, looking back and the feeling that I have when I think about my experience in those four years, that's the best memory. And what the position that it put me in to be sitting here today, the people that I interacted with, the people that I was able to meet, and make connections with, and just, like, the overall foundation to do what I'm,

doing now is the number one memory. You were at the Neil Reed practice, though, right? Was that your freshman year? Yes. That's my freshman year, yeah. Do you, do you, does it, like, at the time that it happened, do you remember it being as big? Because the video didn't come out until years later, right?

Yeah, when the time that happened, like, I don't remember it, you know, being, you know, something just crazy, like, oh, my God, you know, like, and the tape, you know, came out going in the NCAA tournament my senior year, so almost three and a half years later. You know, but like I touched on earlier, when you're a player, you're so, you're so self-absorbed about how you're playing, whether or not coaches on you or, you know, how things are going, you know, on campus or how your girlfriend's doing, or, you know, you're just so worried about you that, you know, if it didn't directly involve you, Sometimes you just don't, you don't pay me that much attention to it. And unfortunately, when you're in those things and you're practicing 100 times a year and you go through the course of your career and you've got 400 plus practices,

plus all your weight sessions and your workout, you know, if it didn't really directly involve you, I'm not sure how much of an imprint it made on you. One thing that Coach Knight taught you that you still use to this day. Do your job. just do your job. Like, don't worry about anything else. You know, do your job. And that was one of the things that he left me with when I was a senior.

When he called me in about three quarters away through my senior year, and I told him I wanted to coach, you know, one day. And he said, just do your job. He said, don't worry about, don't go into any opportunity and think it's beneath you. If your first job is to sweep the floor, then be the best, you know, floor sweeper in the country. and it's going to lead to your next opportunity and so on and so forth. He's never been more right on anything he's ever said.

Like, I've tried to get jobs. Like, I've reached out to people and tried to get jobs throughout my career, and I've never gotten any of them. Every job I've ever gotten, you know, kind of, they came to me or, you know, through some kind of mutual person that, you know, brought my name up. But I've never gotten a job that I went after. The jobs that I've always gotten have kind of come from my way.

and I think that it's happened because of just doing my job. Whatever it is, just try to do your job at the best of your ability. If you do it well enough, then your next opportunity is going to come your way. You get done playing it, and we played against each other in the USBL. Rick Berry was your coach. What was he like? Obviously, he's one of the greatest players to ever play the game. You know, he was, I think, you know, Rick was an interesting character

because, like, I was all fired up to play for Rick, obviously, it's one of the great coaches. And, you know, but when you're dealing with guys in the USBL, like sometimes things don't come as easily to us as it did, you know, to him. And I think he would get frustrated with that at times. But it was a great experience. I mean, obviously, you know, it was different than anything I was used to. You know, I was coming from Indiana.

We were flying on private planes and staying in great hotels, and now you're on the 6 a.m. flight back in the economy, and you're staying at a motel 6 or something. You know, so it's just an overall different experience for me, but it was, it's just part of your story. You know, you stack those experiences and those stories on top of each other, and I kind of make sure who you are. And it was a fun time.

I'd never, it was the first time I ever came off of ball screen. We didn't run ball screens in Indiana. We ran a motion offense, coach with hated ball screens. And so it was different for me, you know, being a point guard. and trying to learn how to play off the ball screens and make all the reads. And, you know, I do know there was first places to wake up in Fort Myers, Florida at that time.

Yeah, it was nice down there. We actually stayed. There was some Oklahoma, like, this is one of those things that, like, guys should know. So we're playing for the Oklahoma Storm in Enid, Oklahoma, and we had, like, five Oklahoma State guys. And our announcer was a guy named Robert Allen, who's, like, has a radio show in Stillwater.

And he hooks us up. There's some Oklahoma State alum was, got a condo on Sanibel Island. And so we came down, we played the team in Sarasota, Roy Jones's team. Then we played you guys on back-to-back nights. And then we played Roy Jones's team. And then we left. There's like four games.

We might have had one day off. Anyway, we stayed on Sanibel Island. We were like, this is unbelievable. This is so great. Who was the best player on your team that year? By the way, I'm looking at your playing card is available. Do you have any of your playing cards? I have one of your playing cards here.

I'm not sure I even, I didn't know I had one. I didn't know I had one. You know, the best experience about the Florida Sea Dragons was, you know, talking about connections of where you were. There was a guy named Q Timler who just passed away this past year was a longtime coach down in that area at a smaller college. And he had a beach house. and he had like, he had like three bedrooms up top, and he had converted like the basement lower level floor into two one bedroom apartments. And we were staying at like a courtyard.

You know, the whole team was just, you know, you're in a courtyard. You got a roommate, you know. And he offered me to come stay out at his beach house and one of the apartments down below where he stayed and gave me an old beat-up red truck that he had that he wasn't used. So instead of having to drive in the minivan from the courtyard to do everything with everybody else, I actually got my own place out at Fort Myers Beach, and it was a great experience. But I couldn't tell you who I didn't know I had a player's card, Doug. I'm not sure who our best player was.

You don't remember any dude to your team? I had it. We had a squad. We had Irred Noble. He played in the NBA. Well, you had a squad, a bunch of guys you knew. Like, I went down and played with a bunch of guys that I didn't know. And I mean, we got Rob one night down there, so I've tried to block out a lot of those memories from down there.

Wait, you got Rob? Oh, we went to a nightclub, and we were flying out the next morning for some trip, some road trip. And I think we had just gotten our paychecks. And so we went to a, there was a concert at this nightclub, and we all went to this nightclub. And we left early a little bit before the concert was over. And, yeah, we got jumped in the parking lot. And there we, two shots were fired through the front windshield of an astro minivan, and we had to turn that in the next morning as we were going to hit the airport.

So there's nothing like turning in a minivan to Rick Berry with two bullet holes through the front windshield and letting him know that everybody's okay. So it was a great experience. I have no idea. Like, dude, we had, I mean, we had Willie Burton. we had, who's ninth pick of the draft. I mentioned I Renewable. We had a good, and then we had the Oklahoma State guys as well.

We had, my dad told me, and I think I might have said this in the pod. My dad told me, I remember we were doing training camp, and we had Bubba Wells, we led the country and scoring. He was the second round pick of the Mavericks. I remember my dad said, like, hey, there's always a reason. And I go, he's like, there's always a reason these guys aren't in the NBA. Yeah. And he's like, you know, like with you, it's like mentally, you're shooting.

He's like, but sometimes that somebody eats their way out of the NBA. Some people, you know, it's women, it's drugs, it's, you know, they're gambling. It's like something. And I swear to God, we had ever, we had a guy that checked, we had, somebody checked one of those boxes. I'll throughout the, like, we're like, damn, why is that guy not play, still playing in the NBA? And then you hang around him for a week.

You're like, oh. Oh, he's on drugs, no doubt, of course. Duh. Okay, so then you played... Then you played over... What did you play overseas? I went to... I went over to Belgium, and I was in...

What was it, Tom? Liam, Belgium, maybe some... Something like that. I wasn't there you were. I was there. I'm trying to think. I've been a few places. I guess I got a lot of things going on right.

I'm trying to get a house. my family, we got some things going on out here right now, Doug. But Leage, I was in Leage, Belgium, and went out there and had a, you know, I had a contract. I felt like it was decent. And we played one game, go through train camp, we play a game. I got 18, and you always compare yourself to the American on the other team, right?

So the American I guarded on the other team, he had 13. They beat us on the last second shot. I get called in the next morning. And I'm sitting around this conference table in this office. And the coaches in there, the president that I'd been introduced to was in there. And then some other guy who, I don't know who he was, they're in there, and they're speaking French. And then they were speaking English to me, and then they speak French, and then they English to me. And I was like, this is not going to go well.

Like, you could just tell, right? And so they informed me that they were releasing me. Is one game? After one game. and they had informed me that they had signed another point guard. And come to find out, it was Michael Hugar, who is now the head coach at Bowling Green. And Michael had been like the, he'd been like MVP or first team all league in that league the year before and had had some problems with his physical with his team.

My team was kind of new to the top division. So they cut me and signed Michael Hugar. And I was out outro. And I just remember I landed. And about two or three days later, all the September 11th stuff happened. And I was out. I was out. You know what?

Like, I know what I want to do. I'm not a pro. I'm not going to play in the NBA. It would have been a great experience. I know what I want to do. And so I reached out to Coach Knight. He was in the first year at Texas Tech. And he said, hey, you can come down here next year and be a grad assistant, you know.

And so, you know, everything worked out. Didn't you want to Stephen F for a year? I went while I started at Texas Tech as a grad assistant. I was a grad assistant two years at Texas Tech, and then my first division one job was Stephen F. Austin. Yeah. Full-time assistant to Stephen F. Austin, huge, huge money. I told my wife, I say, hey, you know, the hardest thing in coaching

is getting that first opportunity to get on the road and recruit. Everybody wants a recruiting experience. And as a young guy, you're like, you know, listen, I can develop relationships. I just need an opportunity. and finally I was giving an opportunity to get on the road. I remember going back to my wife and telling, hey, you know, I got the job, full-time D-1 assistant, 12,500, and a Ford Tours. You know, but we made it, man.

We've made the big time. We're finally in, you know, and sometimes that's what it takes, man. He's needed an opportunity, and I've been very fortunate ever since. When you were at Tech, was Beard on the staff then? Yeah, Chris was an assistant coach. Chris was actually kind of the guy that helped me get the job at Stephen F. Austin. He had worked for Danny Casper as an assistant when he first got started, and Danny had reached out to Chris about needing a young guy to fill a spot, you know, in August.

And so Chris gave me my name, and Danny reached out. And it went from there. So, you know, Chris is kind of really the guy that got that ball rolling for me. did you do you have any idea he would be this kind of coach no i did i mean it's just hard like everybody like oh yeah i can see it like i you know i did i mean i i thought you know when i was at tech i thought they had a really good staff um you know a guy named bob byer was on the staff who was now an assistant in the NBA uh pat night was on the staff uh and then chris beer you know and those were the guys that were were coaches assistants during my time there

so it was a great learning experience obviously you know being around coach on the other side and seeing how he attacked each day, how he prepared for practice and games, and just kind of how he managed the office and went about running a college basketball program that you didn't see as a player. To see it on the other side, and to be able to be in those meetings was great. And then obviously to be around those three individuals and, you know, be able to pick their brain every day was really good. You were, were you at Eastern before you went to Butler, right?

Yes, I was at Eastern Illinois for six years with Mike Miller, who I think has been the head coach of the New York Knicks G League team for several years. And I believe, if I heard correctly, May just got moved up to the bench in the NBA. So congrats to him. A great, really good basketball coach. Eastern Illinois is a very difficult job. Okay, so how did it come about that you come about that you got to Butler? So I actually took a job with Porter Moser at Loyola when he got the job at Chicago. He was looking for a young guy that could recruit in the Midwest and in Indiana.

And my name was given to him and he reached out. I took the job. I was actually in Chicago for about two and a half weeks. And Porter, I get a phone call from Porter. I was actually back in Charleston to see my wife who was getting ready to deliver our second daughter. And Porter goes, hey, Brad Stevens just called me. He wants to talk to you about a job. What are you going to do?

And I was like, what are you talking about? And, you know, Brad, in typical Brad fashion, he called Porter first. And as Porter, you know, if you could talk to me about a job near the timing wasn't great. And I give, I give, you know, Porter a ton of credit because Brad said, hey, listen, Mike doesn't know about this. You don't have to worry about him getting upset. that, you know, this is just you and me. Nobody else knows about it. And Porter had just taken the job and trying to get that program rolling.

And I always be indebted to Porter because he gave me the opportunity to talk to Brad about the job. And, you know, you can't. You got an opportunity to work for Brad Stevens coming off of two final fours at Butler. You know, you take it. It's kind of like, you know, when Mick reached out to me here, like you don't tell UCLA, no. You know, and so that's how I got to. I was there for five years, two of them with Brad. And then before he went to Boston, and then Brandon Miller for a year, the last two years were under Chris Holman.

If you could... Okay, so I asked you about Coach Knight. All right, same question kind of about Brad. Like, what is it? Brad is just, one, I think he's very comfortable with who he is. He is over, over intelligent. And he's ultimately prepared, overly prepared for every situation. Like, you're not ever going to catch him, not prepared.

And I think he's very efficient in how he works and how he prepares, how he runs a practice. And I've told people this before, and they look at me, like, kind of really, really strange. Like, what Bob Knight and what Brad Stevens want from the, their players or want from their program, the type of people that they want, their program to stand for, are exactly the same. Now, how each one of those individuals go about achieving that are opposite ends of the spectrum, and both work for each individual. But, you know, it's like any elite company. Now, you look at, especially in sports, you look at the Patriots,

or you look at, you know, what the warriors have done. Like, like, the main components of those things are all the same. Now, how they go about getting them, sometimes they do it their own personal way, which you have to do. You've got to be who you are. But those guys were very similar and what they wanted. They just go about it in different ways, and they both have achieved a ton of success. Your second year there, you guys got to, I'm going to say the Sweet 16, is that right, right? Or did you lose? I guess you lost in the second game. You beat Bucknell and then you you lost to Marquette. But this is, and, but now you've gotten a chance to be a part, like the first year was, I mean, you'd lost, they'd lost Gordon Hayward the year before, and then they lost Shelvin Mack.

Like, you lose two of the kind of like all-time great Butler players. And so you, and the competition got stiffer, and you didn't make the NCAA term. And second year, you do. So you get to see kind of Brad at, you know, at a championship kind of caliber level in-game. What is he like? he's really good. Like I said, he's prepared for every situation. You know, and, you know, we beat Buck now pretty handily in the first round. And then we got against Marquette, and they were really good.

And, you know, we helped out of a ballside corner off a shooter and gave up a three for them to take the lead. And then we had an opportunity at the end. And we didn't get a great shot. What was, okay, so, so, so, wait. Don't mind me asking. So for people who don't know, you were Brad's offensive coordinator, correct? No. Not that, no.

I didn't do that stuff for Brad. Brad did his stuff. Oh, that wasn't until Holt put you in that position? Right. Yes. Okay, so they hit a three. Did you guys call a timeout or do you guys just come into something? Well, we got down the other end of the floor.

I'm not sure how we got two of it, but we had a side out of bounds with a short clock on a side out of bounds. and we had a timeout. We used the timeout. I don't know if we used it or Buzz used it, but there was a timeout. And Buzz came out in a one-three-one on the side out of bounds. Smart. And it was really good, really good.

And, you know, it gave us some problems. We got the ball to Andrew Smith at the top. He got a shot off, not a great look, and didn't make it. But it was a really, really good college basketball game. and, you know, we had Rodney Clark on that team, Kellan Dunham on that team. So we could score some points. Andrew Smith, you know, Roosevelt Jones was younger.

Kim Woods was younger. So we had some guys that can compete. It was just a really good college basketball game. I think we were the sixth seed, and I think Marquette was maybe the three playing down there in Lexington. So it was obviously a bitter loss. And then, you know, we were. during the A10 that year.

So my time, my five years of Butler, we were in three different leagues. We're in the Horizon League than the A-Ton and then ultimately made the move to the Big East. Yeah, and I don't think people understand how hard that is to, you know, you go from the horizon, which is like low major, right? Most of the leagues like low-major, to the A-10, which is a good high-major league, you know, especially then, and then to the Big East and, you know, it's a massive step up in competition because you have teams, you know, Villanova kind of coming down from a high major. A10 was more mid-major and then the Big East then was like a mix of like the mid-high mid-majors and low high-main.

You know, like there's a reason Nova was struggling a little bit in the old Big East and all of a sudden you come down and you're playing against the new Big East competition and they're just throttling people, right? So it's a different level on day-to-day in terms of who you're playing against as opposed to who you were previously recruiting and playing against. Is that accurate? No, no question. Without a doubt. And, you know, we were having Rodney Clark sitting out, and we had some talented guy. I mean, Roosevelt Jones, those guys were good players. And Kellan Dunham was a good player.

And then, so we were able, we competed very well in the 18. I think we finished third in the 18th. It was a very strong year for the 8th. St. Louis was really good that year. And then we got the USA tournament. And then our first year in the Big East, you know, we, Roosevelt Jones was hurt. He tore up a wrist on a trip to Australia. our team took a, we took our team of Australia on one of those foreign trips, and he tore up a risk and was out for the year.

And we weren't, we weren't prepared from a roster standpoint to make that jump that quickly. And so our first year in the big east was not very good. And in the next two years, we competed well, got the NCAA tournament. And, you know, generally, had some success and kind of set them up for, you know, where they are now. It took us a recruit. We were able to get Keelan Martin in one of those eight early recruiting classes. And then you just, you know, you have guys like Cam Woods and Roosevelt Jones and Kell and Dunham that were left over. You piece those guys together.

We had a really tough kid that was a walk-on named Alex Barlow. Yeah, he's a baseball player too, right? Yeah, baseball guy. And now, you know, he works in the Celtics organization, just a really tough guy. And, you know, when you have those types of competitive people on your team, you've got a chance. And that's kind of how we were able to survive. They're a Butler, and we have, you know, Kellyn Dunham could shoot. And Keelman Martin, you know, he rolled out of bed getting 18 to 20.

So you put those guys together, and we were able to, you know, Holman did a great job of kind of holding that whole situation together. And we had a really good group of kids that cared about winning, really didn't care about how we won, just cared about winning. and so we're able to keep it rolling. Okay, so Brad, let me go back, though, to win Brad Lees. Where were you when you find out Brad's going to go to the NBA? Brad called. I was sitting in Brandon Miller's car. We were heading to get coffee on the last day of camp.

It was the last Friday of a four of, we ran four weeks of camp at that time. And we just finished up our camp staff meeting. we had like an hour before the campers were going to start rolling in, and we had, him and I were just getting in the car to go get a cup of coffee. And Brad called to let us know that he wasn't going to be at camp until after lunch, that Danny Ains was coming, and he was sitting down with him. And we knew, I knew at that time, I knew Brad well enough and been around him through, you know, I mean, every school was calling Brad at that time.

I think that was even the time when UCLA reached out. out to Brad about coming out here. And I knew the fact that he had actually was going to sit down face to face that this was real. It wasn't just somebody gauging interest or Brad just saying thanks but no.

And I just remember hanging up the phone, you know, when Brandon hung up the phone and we had had that conversation on speakerphone. I just looked at Brandon. I'm like, this dude's gone, man. He's going to Boston. And good for him. You know, what an opportunity. But yeah, that's where I

I was heading to get a cup of coffee sitting in the Kinkle Fieldhouse parking lot when I found out. Okay, so did you have a chance to go? No, I didn't entertain anything. You know, really, like, I was really happy in Indianapolis. I thought we had some good stuff going. You know, and no, I never asked, and I was never off, you know. So I was at that time when Brad left, I tried to get the other head coaching job. I interviewed with Barry Collier twice.

So that's, you know, I knew how the Butler way worked. I knew the opportunity. Like, this is how, hey, this is how, this is how Thadmada got the job. You know, this is, you know, Licklider got the job. This is how Brad got the job. Like, this is how this place works, you know. Matthew Graves had already left to go to South Alabama. Like, you know, like if I'm going to have a shower,

at this, this may be my shot, you know. And so I tried to prepare in a very short amount of time to interview with Barry and got to sit down with Barry Collier twice, and ultimately he hired Brandon Miller. But that's kind of where my focus was at that time. Okay, so what's that like to be? Like you said, obviously you're close with Brandon Miller, and you're in the car, hang up, and you guys are both fighting after the same job. He gets it, you don't, you stay.

and what was what's that like? Well, I think you're just, you're a professional. You do the job. Like you focus, like, you know, you deal with the initial disappointment, right? I mean, there's going to be human emotion there. You deal with the initial disappointment of, you know, being maybe as close as you're going to be to that opportunity. And really at that time in my career, the closest I'd been to something like that. And out of school like Butler, you know, you're, you're disappointed.

But you're also like, hey, you also have a job to do. You've got a family you need to take care of. And you've got a team full of athletes that you've grown close to, that you care about. And you want to immediately turn your focus to, hey, what's best about for these guys? Get out outside to your selfishness. Get outside yourself and try to focus on what's best for the people that lean on you and that are around you. You know, what's best for them. And so, you know, it wasn't awkward in any way.

You know, we had worked together before. You know, he had played there. You know, Barry had recruited him. Like, I got all the connections. He was a Butler guy. Like, I get it. I respect all that. I respect, you know, I played for a program rich and tradition.

I work at a program right now. I talk to you, rich in tradition. Butler, you know, has their own tradition. Like, I respect that. I understand all that. And so it wasn't really difficult for me once I got back into the job to do my job. And then you work for Holt who got the job when Brandon takes a leave of absence. And Holt really empowered you.

But then you took a chance. And I remember you and I talking about going Nebraska. You're like, look, I got to, you know, I got to try this. What was, you know, because there's lots of basketball coaches listen to this. What was the decision like to leave Butler where you had Keel and Martin? You had dudes. You'd figured out how to compete in the Big East. And you're in your comfort zone, Indianapolis.

but there's a, you know, you keep bumping into kind of a ceiling there. What was the thought like about leaving for Nebraska? Well, you just said I was in my comfort zone, and I felt like for me to grow, I needed to get outside my comfort zone. You know, we talked to our players all the time about workouts. Like, you've got to become comfortable being uncomfortable. You know, you can't, you're not going to get any better if you work out at a comfortable place or at a comfortable pace.

You've got to expand your boundaries. You know, and after year two with Chris, Georgia Tech approached Chris about an opportunity that he ended up not doing. And I knew, again, going back to the Butler way of promoting from within, I knew how that whole process, you know, took place. And Chris turned that down and came to us as a staff and said, hey, well, I'm going to sign a longer-term deal here with Butler. This is where I want to be. this is a lifetime decision for me. With the timing of everything, Nebraska had an opening that I could get involved with and just felt like with everything going on, you know, if I wanted to ultimately take the next step,

that this was an opportunity that I had to really consider, you know, as far as one, jumping to the Big Ten, which I had played in, loved being a part of the Big Ten, and, you know, it's the highest level of college basketball. It's one of the premier leagues in the country. And so you get to compete against those coaches, against those players every day from the basketball point to the recruiting and everything that goes with it. And there's just an opportunity to do that. And plus, get out of my comfort zone a little bit as a coach. You know, I had grown up in Indiana with coaching in Indiana.

You know, when you're at Butler, you kind of, you recruit a certain type of player, a certain type of kid has to fit the basketball. Butler way, so to speak. And I wanted to expand myself a little bit and take on a different challenge. And, you know, Chris had given me a ton of responsibility as far as, you know, calling the offense and things there. He allowed me to grow immensely as a coach because he gave me those responsibilities and he gave me an opportunity to fail. I mean, that's how you learn.

Like, you fail, you learn from it anymore and you don't make that same mistake again. So I felt like in my time with Chris that I had really grown as a coach, I really expanded my knowledge of the coach as far as, you know, in-game play calling and different things, and that it was just the timing of everything and his commitment to Butler, that it was time to take the next step. And, you know, in hindsight, I didn't realize he was going to go to Ohio State, you know, 12 months later, but as I'm sitting here at UCLA,

I think everything has worked out. I've always tried to make decisions when they've come up on my plate in my career, with the knowledge that I have at hand and try to make the best decision at that time. And then once you make that decision, I never look back. Like, I don't look back to, hey, what effort? This happened, that happened. Not at all. Like, everybody says that.

I'm talking about it right now to you, but, like, I don't. Like, I made a decision to go to Nebraska, and every day I was at Nebraska, I worked my ass off to make that decision the right decision. I think that's your job. No, I understand. Listen, I understand that. But, but I mean, like, look, if I'm honest, I was at ESPN for nine years. And I like, all I really, I mean, I wanted to make a certain amount of money.

I wanted to continue to grow. And they offered me, honestly, the exact amount of money that I wanted. But they wouldn't promise any growth. And probably, you know, like at the moment there, I was a little selfish. And I was like, why don't you, you know, all I asked for is like these five things. And you said no, but you said yes to the money that I wanted. and, you know, CBS offered me the opportunities that I wanted and, you know, a little bit more money, but I had to uproot my family.

Like, look, in hindsight, I don't know. I mean, I would just be honest. Like, if I could go back and do it, I wouldn't have gotten to do the Final Four, but there was also a lot of moving, a lot of hard stuff with the family in terms of moving. I think it's a reasonable thing to look back and to say, was this the right decision, was it the wrong decision? And it doesn't mean you can't. Like, every day I worked there, every day I've worked at Fox, like I try and, you know, kick ass. I think about the Oklahoma State job I didn't get. Like, I think it's, I think all these things are reasonable to look back at.

Can you, you can honestly not look back and have any sort of regret. Like, dude, if you would have stayed there, I don't know if they hire LaValle. They might. I mean, he played at Butler. He was a head coach. You didn't have head coaching experience, but you were there. Or you could have gone to Ohio State still been in the Big Ten, you know, at a better spot than Nebraska in terms of getting players.

Like that's not a reasonable thing to at least think about? No, I think you can look back and learn from decisions you make, but I don't spend a lot of time wondering what if. Like, okay, say that doesn't. Like what you just said, maybe that scenario plays out at Ohio State. Do I have the opportunity to be at UCLA? Who knows? You don't know.

That's why I don't spend a lot of time. Like, there's so many what ifs. There's so many different scenarios. Like, all I know is, like, I made a decision to go to Nebraska. I worked my ass off every day to help that program get better in the last two years. We had the best two-year run since 91. So I think it's in a better spot than when I first got there. And now I get the opportunity to work at UCLA.

If I don't go to Nebraska, maybe I'm not ever here at UCLA. And this is a really cool opportunity for anybody in college basketball to be able to coach it at UCLA. So that's why I think you can look back at the decisions. make. I think you can learn from them, but I don't spend a lot of time, like, how I could have done this or what if this would have happened? Because I think it just takes away from the job that you have at hand, and I've been very fortunate by just doing the job I have at hand and trust in the process that it's going to lead to whatever's next. And like I said, like I get, I'm pretty lucky. I've been really lucky to be where I'm at. But that's how I've gone about my career, and

I'm sitting in Westwood. So I'm not. too upset. I'm not, I'm not going to change, you know, and maybe it's wrong to say, like, I never look back, but I don't allow myself to spend a lot of time wondering about the what-ifs. You know, I just spend my time thinking about how I can get there. You know, I think you learn from the decisions you make. If you had to go back and do it again, like, it all depends on the timing. That's why I say I just, when a decision comes my way, and I have to make a decision to approve my family or take the next job or whatever it is, I just use the knowledge that I have at that time in the present to try to make the best.

best decision at that time. And then I spend the rest of my time trying to make whatever decision I decided to make it the best decision. And that's how I've gotten here. Okay. So this is the first time you're ever fired, right? Yeah. Yeah.

What, what, I mean, I couldn't have been terribly enjoyable to go to work because, you know, like, one of your best players is hurt and there's this kind of cloud looming, right? and there's a lot of discussion over Nebraska basketball last year. And I thought the whole thing was weird, to be honest, as an outsider. Because like Nebraska was in the Big 12 when I was there, obviously, and they were notorious for being talented, terrible on the road. It's never won an NCAA tournament game. And, you know, they built incredible facilities.

And I think that people think you sprinkle in some pixie dusting in facilities and you're just like all of a sudden going to be at the top of the Big Ten. Like, do you know how good the Big Ten? and what you're doing. I do. Fans have no, excuse my, French,

fucking clue. Like the Big Ten, like, you're not the only one trying to be good. Like, Illinois has, Illinois has been good forever. And they have an awesome coach.

And they were at the bottom of the league. Like, it's really, really hard because all the coaches are good. All the teams are older than the other leagues. You know, and all the crowds are good. The arena's good.

Like, yeah, you've got good facilities. Great. So does most everybody else in the league. And they have more players that grew up closer and fans of their program, right? And that's the key to recruiting. But what is that feeling like for a guy who, you know, look, it hasn't been easy. You know, you didn't come out in an NBA draft.

You were in the USBL. You did get cut after one game playing overseas. But you've never been fired before. What is that like? Did Tim call you? How does that work? No, I mean, like we were wrong. We were 13 and 4.

I think we were 13 and 2, 13 and 4. We were ranked in the top 25 and really kind of on the track to do everything that they expected, you know, of the team that we had in Nebraska. And honestly, you know, Nebraska has never won an NCAA tournament again. You know, that challenge of doing that excited me. And but the expectation of this year's team was to go to Sweet 16, you know, And, like, that's what you talked about the fans. Like, the best thing Nebraska has going for is the fans. They have unbelievably passionate fans that love the Huskers.

But when you have that, you also sometimes get some expectations and things that can be somewhat unrealistic. And the expectation for us was to basically skip a step in the process or two and just, you know, wind up in the Sweet 16. And, you know, like, you've only been to the NCAA tournament seven times, a mile was taking you there one of those seven times. Like, let's just win a game, and then we'll worry about, you know, what's next. And so that's kind of what drove me as far as, you know, the whole Nebraska thing.

And I thought we were set up to do that. And obviously we had a horrific injury with Isaac Couln, turn, and, you know, things got loose. And we just weren't able to win, you know, down the stretch and in the conference. And so, you know, going through that whole deal, it's not a pleasant thing. but, like, you, again, you've got to get outside yourself. You've got to quit worrying about how this affects you and realize that, you know, James Palmer, Glenn Watson, Isaiah Robey, like, this is their one shot to be a college basketball player.

You know, I got my opportunity, you got your opportunity. This is their one shot to be a college basketball player. Now, I can be selfish as a coach, and I can quit working because, hey, we're going to get fired at the end of the year, okay, and I'm just completely be self-absorbed. Or I can completely, I can, all my energy and trying to make, you know, what I talked about earlier, try to make their experience for them as good as it possibly can be.

And so that's kind of what got me to go to work every day and to continue to prepare and try to put them in the right positions at the right time. And that's how I approached it. I don't know if that's the right way to approach it. That's how I went about it. We had a good staff that stuck together and just try to focus our energy on those guys and trying to help them down the stretch. And we had a few more injuries come up.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions,

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Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark.

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learn the hard way. Open your free, our heart radio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, fam? This Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano and our podcast, Point game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed.

And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nasree. He has to guard Julius Ruff.

Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. After you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th.

And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out.

Quarterback on office blue with 42. Hey, ref, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Where's she at? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And we got down about six fellas at the end,

and the last three weeks of coaching those guys were probably as much fun as I've had in coaching. You know, we had three dudes that could go get some buckets. And Miles was great. Miles just finally told him in the locker room one day in family, hey, listen, you three guys go try to get 65, and we'll figure it out with these other three, and we're going to see what we can do.

And I think we ring off three or four consecutive wins, and hopefully those guys can remember the end of their career for accomplishing that and kind of forget that middle part of the season. But it was a different deal. I mean, no question. What, if you were going to relate to this, this is not going to get another job, right? I mean, he's done a good job everywhere he's been. If there was one thing about how Tim Miles coaches that you will take with you,

that you will tell other people, you should do this or this is what makes him great. What is it? Well, the thing I respect about Tim the most is how he got to a Power 5 conference. And, like, listen, he got fired whatever day it was. He was on a flight 6 a.m. the next morning interviewing for another Power 5 job. Like, he's a good basketball coach. And I give him a lot of credit because, like, what I told him, I'm like, I said, Tim, when you took over Nebraska,

somebody with the reputation and stature of Fred Hoiberg wasn't going to be interested in Nebraska. I said, what you've done in seven years and elevated the visibility of the program, to put that program headed in the right direction. A guy like Fred Hoyberg now wants that job. And what ultimately got you is what you should probably be most proud of is because you've set that job up in a position where somebody like Fred

you know, wants to take over. I think it's a great time to take over the program at Nebraska. You've got an unbelievable fan-based facilities, everything. You've just got to get players to want to be there. And hopefully they can achieve that. But I think the best thing that I respect the most about him is how he's, how he kind of started. Like he doesn't have, like he didn't play Division I like you and I.

You know, he like he didn't play for legendary coaches like you and I. Like he, you know, he was a NAA guy that, you know, know, wasn't good enough to play, became a student assistant, and just worked himself all the way up to Nebraska. And I think that's a hell of a story for him because you don't, you don't just wind up in Nebraska. You know, you don't wind up in a Power 5 head job. And just how he's gone about it to get to where he got, I think, is an unbelievable story. So just, you know, that little chip he has on his shoulder to kind of prove everybody wrong, you know, I think is one of his greatest qualities. So you're cleaning out your garage, right?

Yeah. In Lincoln? But like you're, because you're moving or you're just your wife is like, go clean the garage? You're annoying me. No, when you spend a winter in Lincoln, Nebraska, like you drag snow and salt and all that stuff into your garage. And when you're unemployed, you know, I was very fortunate at Nebraska. I had another year on my contract, so I didn't have to do anything. I could have kind of been a bum for 12 months, or 14 months, whatever it was going to be.

But you live in Lincoln, Nebraska. When the spring comes and the weather breaks, you've got to get all that snow and winter junk out of your garage. Otherwise, you just continue to track it into your house. So when you're unemployed, your wife takes a day and you and her just go to the garage, and you're going to clean out the garage. So that's what I was doing. And I got a little beep on my phone and having to be Mick Crum. So, okay, so you pick up the phone, and did you have his number saved?

Like, did he say Mick Cronin, or is this like a Cincinnati number? Is it an L.A. number? No. What is it? No, it was, it was, I got a mixed number in my phone. Like, I was at, when I was at Eastern Illinois, Doug, he was at Murray State. He was the head coach of Murray State. So we competed against each other a little bit there.

While I was at Butler, we played Cincinnati. You know, and so we had a relationship where, you know, we've exchanged a few texts, you know, a year. I've sent him a, you know, like the wine emoji or something after a big win, say congrats to him or something. And I think he would watch our teams play, you know, late at night, different things. And if we won a big game, you know, I'd get a, you know, a text or two a year, congrats or, you know, good luck or thinking of you, things like that. We would see each other on the road recruiting. Always say hi, chit-chat a little bit, you know how that stuff goes. But, yeah, it popped up McKronin.

And it was just saying, just checking in on you. You know, how are things going? And he had just recently got to UCLA job. And, you know, so as well, things are good. I said, not as good as they're going for you. You know, he had just gotten this job. But that's kind of how things got started. And we just started talking from there.

So you get to, had you ever been to UCLA before you took the job? I had driven by campus. I've been out here recruiting a few times. There was a big Adidas tournament out here. you know, that I always come to. And it was in the old recruiting calendar. It was the end of the second week, you know, whether it was in Redondo Beach or in Anaheim,

a couple different tournaments that I would come out here and recruit. So I had been in the area a few times, obviously, it doesn't matter where you grow up. You know of UCLA. You know in their basketball program, their history, their tradition, the players. You know all that stuff. I don't care where you grow up.

But to get out here and to feel it every day and to be around it every day, obviously, I mean, special is not an adjective that's good enough to explain it. But, you know, I'm kind of a, I'm a small town Indiana guy. I love going to work in Hinklefield House every day because of, you know, what that gym stood for. I love playing in the assembly hall. You know, I like the old stuff. And to be a part of this university and just think of the guys that have been here and walking to the Polly.

Like, have you ever walked in that hallway, leaving out of downstairs, off the court, and into the locker room? Have you ever been in that hallway, Doug? Yeah. The greatest hallway in college basketball, they call it. I mean, that doesn't get you being like a guy like you and I, I mean, I don't know what does. I mean, it's obviously a special place, and I'm very, very fortunate to be able to be able to be able. to represent it in a very small way. There's a recipe for getting your car running just right.

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And very, like, if you were to ask me, what is the most surprising thing about being here at UCLA is the difficulty in finding a good ice cold course light. You know, you go to these different restaurants and everybody's got their own little beer selection and all the different breweries and IPAs and different things. I'm a pretty simple guy, as you know. Like, I just need an ice cold course light. But I did. I found a 7-Eleven. Got a 12-pack. and put it in my hotel fridge,

and so I'll be okay until I get settled. Okay. Last thing, all of these experiences, and look, you still, you want your first job, right? You want your first head coaching job. What is it going to take for you to get the right opportunity? Well, you know, the older I get, you know, I try not, it's like looking back.

I try not to look too far forward. I think when an opportunity presents itself, it's the right one for me. You know, I have a kind of a vision of what that's going to be. It's going to be where you have an opportunity to be successful. You know, things are in place to be successful. And that's so much more to me than just the basketball program. Like, do you have, you know, is your president and the university administration, your athletic director and the athletic administration and myself,

where we walk in hand in hand and trying to achieve the same things. And I think when you find that, that's when you ultimately can have the most success. And I think that that is what we're trying to get to right now here in UCLA. I think it's a great opportunity to come be a part of it. But that's what I'm looking for in my first job. I'm not too concerned about low major, mid-major, high-major. I just want to, you know, right now make UCLA as good as we possibly can make it.

And if we do that, then the next opportunity is going to come my way. But I do have a vision of what I wanted to look like, how I wanted to feel. I've been very fortunate to be around. You know, we've talked a little bit about all of them, some unbelievable coaches. I know what success feels like. I know the type of people that it takes to be around the program to have that type of success. And so I realize how fortunate I've been, and I hope to get that opportunity in the future. But when that comes, it'll come.

You know, right now I'm trying to help these guys enjoy their experience at 3.30 when we work out again. All right. I got two or three more. Your favorite high school gym in Indiana is what? Memorial Gymnasium, Huntingberg, Indiana. It's about seven miles south of Jasper. It's where our sectional tournament was, which was the first round of the state tournament when I was there. It's kind of like Polly, where you just see the roof and it goes down into the ground.

It held about 7,000 people on tournament nights, and it was so. out with all the... What town is it? Huntingberg, Indiana. Huntingberg. Southridge Raiders. Yeah, small little town, about seven miles south of jest. So...

Your favorite... If I could go back and play one more game, like, if I could go back and play one more game, like, if I could go back and, like, the knees don't hurt, everything is, everything is back when you're 18 years old, like, that's where I was playing. I'm looking at... I'm looking at pictures of it. Yeah. cool.

Yeah. It's cool. It was hot in there. It'd be, oh, it's always so hot in there with all the people. It was great. Okay. Favorite, favorite Big Ten Arena? Oh, similar.

Any more softballs for me? No, I'm just, okay. So, tell me something about, about, I've shared previously my, my, my nightmare. We got blown out. We were down 40 to 14 at IU in January, in February, excuse me, in November of 95. André Patterson threw a shot. He didn't block a shot. He threw a shot of mine into the third row. I think he hit

John Mellencamp actually with the basketball. And that was on the beginning of SportsCenter. It was like, are you ready for sports center? It's like, no! And I was like, yeah, that was my shot that he just rejected. Tell me something about, you know, you tell me about the greatest, what is it, hallway in college basketball at UCLA, what's the coolest part about,

about Assembly Hall that only somebody who played their knows. I would like, I like, going in there when it was empty. Yeah. And like all the lights weren't on, like just, you know, some of the floodlights that they would, you know, have on. Like when you were able to get in there, when you probably weren't supposed to, you know,

that was my favorite time. You just kind of go in there and look around and have that feeling. It was interesting. We took our team that we won there this year. And we went and shot around the night before with some of the, of our guys that went in the night before, because we did a shoot-around on game day, but the night before,

we always always had five or six guys want to go get some extra shots. And, you know, Isaac Copeland was still healthy at the time, and he was shooting. And he's like, he's like, coach,

you can, you can, like, almost feel the history in here, you know. And now I'm coaching a different team in there, you know, so I'm trying to combat that.

Like, I mean, I understood exactly what he was saying, but I'm like, dude, listen, those five banners, they're not playing tomorrow night.

You know, those banners, they're not scoring. any point. I'm trying to get him out of that mode, but I knew exactly what he was, what he was talking about and feeling the history. And you feel that same thing, uh, when you're on this campus, you walk into Polly. Like, you look up and you've got those 11 banners hanging up there and you've got the jerseys of those guys hanging up there. Like, like, like you feel, uh, you feel that history. You feel that tradition. And that's what makes those places so special.

I got to share with you, Jason Collier's story. So Collier visited us at Notre Dame before going to you guys. And we thought we had a shot. And, uh, We had a guy named Gary Bell was a fellow freshman. And I remember our coaches called us in. They're like, hey, look, we got Jason Collier coming this week. Jason Collier and the Babel twins came in the same weekend. So like three best white guys in America coming in. And so they call us in.

And, you know, like as a freshman, you're going to be a host. And Pat Gary, he's a sophomore. He was a host. Hey, look, Collier is a great dude, great player. He does not drink, he does not smoke, and he doesn't like cursing. It's very religious. I'm like, all right, well, fine. All false information, by the way.

All false information. Okay. So, so, so we, which I'm sure. So, right? So we get, uh, they come pick me up at my dorm and then we go rolling. We go down to Gary Bell's dorm, which is like two dorms down. And literally open the door and he's got like a cigar in his mouth and 40s in his arm. He's like, what's something?

fellas, let's pregame, you know? But I never forget that he said, he's like, we knew he was going to Indiana because he's like, man, Coach Knight was amazing, like my grandma loves him. He's so funny. You know, like, people got him all wrong, which people do have him, had him got him all wrong, but he's like, you know, he doesn't curse all the time. That's like totally overdone. And we're like, all right, dude.

Give me your, how good a host were you when you're at IU? you? When you had to host a recruit, how good were you? Well, I would like to think I was pretty good. We got a lot of the guys I hosted. You know, now, like, the Kirk Haysson story, he was an NBA draft pick, but, you know, he came to campus and, you know, like, hey, you know, there's a party here, there's a party here, you know, like, what do you want to do? And he was just like, I really want some steak and shake and just take me back to the hotel. So I'm like, this guy's from small town, Tennessee. Like, there's no way we're getting this guy. So we went and got him a couple of cheeseburgers and took his host money and went down to the party and had a hell of a good time.

And he ended up coming to Indiana and be a pretty good player. But I think some of those visits are overrated. You know, each guy is different. Like you see it in recruiting what they're looking for, what their family is looking for. And it's just got to be a fit. And I know it was for me when I walked on campus. just like, you know, like the, but, now, some of the best host times that we had,

like, oh, this dude had a blast. We didn't get him. Didn't get it. No, I know. It's crazy. But I do think, I do think that some of it is also for, like, we used to at Oklahoma State, we used to use it because we had a vote, right? But there were guys that we went to, we went to the coaches like, he's not one of us.

Like, no, no, thanks. Yeah. And they're like, really? Like, no, we think this guy's awesome. Like, no, not at all. Yeah. Yeah, and Dave 5 on his visit, he came in for a football weekend,

and we were supposed to take him the football game, and he didn't want to go, and he wanted to sit in my apartment and eat Buffaloes and watch Michigan play Michigan's football game on ABC. So when coach asked us, hey, what did you guys do yesterday? How was the football game? I'm like, well, we didn't go. Well, what did you do?

And I was like, well, we set in my apartment at Buffaloes, and we watched Michigan play, I don't know, whoever they were playing on TV. And, like, Coach Knight was all pissed off at me. But we ended up getting him, you know. But, like, he didn't want to go. I don't blame you. We didn't go to IU games when I was playing.

Like, you know, like, you sit at home. We watched Michigan Notre Dame. Like, that's what we did, you know. But that's what we got him. He wanted to watch Michigan on his IU visit. He wanted to watch Michigan play football. So that's what we did. We ended up getting.

So it's all different reasons. That's actually amazing. Yeah, we've had five. I've had five. Okay. Last thing. The best guy that you love seeing on the road. okay we have like somebody we have not

that you're just like look I've been a basketball coach for 20 years this is a this is a great dude that people should know about um well I'll give you an assistant and I'll give you a head coach assistant like I've met Lou Gadino who's now at Wichita State he's been a friend of mine since we were in college and so I always enjoy sitting and talking with him

just kind of catching up from like as a friend thing as a coaching thing like I don't even know if Roy Williams knows my name but he has been extremely gracious to me every time I've seen him and if he doesn't know my name I wouldn't know it from our interaction so sit down and he'll talk and you know we'll end up talking for two or three games and you know I'll ask him about you know he's always got buddies with him and his golf trips and he tells me all about it and it does he it kind of reminds you of sitting down talking to your grandfather, you know, and just, you know, all the good stories he has, and he'll get, he's a great storyteller, and he just starts telling all these great stories, and I just enjoy sitting there, you know, listening to him. And like I said, I don't even know if he knows what my name is, but every time I see him, you know, and we're within a close vicinity, we end up talking, and I've always enjoyed those times. It's pretty cool. For a guy like me, it's pretty cool.

Yeah, for anybody, it's pretty cool. anybody's pretty cool he doesn't like me he's he doesn't like me so he used to really be nice to me and he was super nice to my dad and I always thought he's he's like the world's greatest dude

and he doesn't like me because the information he was given on what I said on CBS was not terribly accurate but whatever I said I said you know like look people wonder this is back when he had his knees were bad

and he had the spins you know he gets that kind of like once a year and I was like look people wonder if he wins a national championship, if he'll retire. It was like a legit discussion within the sport. And so it got kind of spun around to, I said Roy Williams is going to retire. It's like, no, that's not what I said. But whatever. I do think,

I think he's amazing. He's interesting dude and probably the greatest head coach recruiter that there has ever been, right? Like, I think self's really good, but, you know, like Roy Williams used to, he still does. He comes, he sits down in mid-court. Whoever, somebody he wants,

he comes and sits down mid-court, so everybody knows Roy Williams is there, and he makes it a personal quest to get that one guy or whatever those guys are. And he has an unbelievable level of energy for recruiting still. And he does, he does have his, he does roll deep. Like, he's funny. He's kind of got his posse of like, who are those guys? Like, those are Roy Williams guys.

Like, oh, okay. Yeah. There's boys, and they're just hitching that. He's got to watch a game or two, and they're itching to get out to hit the, hit the golf course or the closest casino. And, you know, good for him. I think he's earned that right. to do that stuff.

What's a reasonable expectation for UCLA over the first couple of years? You know, I think that's difficult. Like, I'm still learning our personnel. You know, I think when you first get in here with the open recruiting period, you're really focused on the recruiting aspect. I think we have some talented kids on this team. I think that they will. if we can get them to,

there's this big misconception about Mick in offense and defense, but if we can get these guys to defend the way that I believe that they're capable of based on their athleticism, and you couple it with their offensive abilities, then we're going to have an opportunity to have some success. Now, if we don't do that, like scoring points was not a problem for this basketball team. you know, defending guys, you know, was. And so we've got to get that mentality and that focus.

They've got to realize with all their abilities on one end, if they can pick it up on the other, it can lead to winning, and that's got to become important to them. You know, the highlight play has got to become secondary, winning's got to become number one, and everything that they want to achieve will be right there for them. And it's been a fun group to work with. I'm excited about 3.30 today to get out with him for our second workout of the summer.

I got to work out with him for about a week when I first got here with the quarter system finishing. So we're still kind of getting to know each other. They're getting a better feel for Mick and what he's looking for. He's doing a lot of teaching. And these guys have been very – they've responded very well. And obviously they're trying to impress a new staff. But I think it's a good group with a very high ceiling. There's just some habits that have gone awry, and we've got to tighten some things up.

But it's going to be fun to work with, and I think if we can recruit the right type of kids that are about the right things, and you couple that with the level of talent that you can attract here at UCLA, then we can do some special things, and that's what I'm looking forward to. No question, no question. All right, man, I've taken up enough of your time. Best of luck finding actual watering holes with Coors Light. I will make my personal quest. I think the places you're looking to live,

you'll have a better chance than right around the campus in Westwood. In the meantime, thanks for Joe. When my family gets up here, and then you're going to, like, I made that trip down to your spot now. When my family gets out here mid-July, we'll have you up and have a barbecue, and I promise you I will have found some cords. I already know what to bring.

This is so easy. Like, I hate bringing over, like, a bottle of wine. How about that bad bottle of wine? I hope you threw that bottle of wine. That place I had to stop at next to your house was like the last place to go. And why did you do that? Why did you do that? Like, it was very thoughtful.

Don't get me wrong. It was the first time I was going to meet your wife. It was the first time I was going to meet your wife. And I was like, I got to show, like, I can't just be the dude that just shows up, right? So I don't know. I was not being who I am. I'm not being who I am. I'm pretty comfortable of my own skin.

And I was trying to be nice and get a bottle of wine. I'm sure it was it was very nice but it's you know it's like it's like that kiss on the cheek thing that people do like and like you get into you get into I go to a party and people like come up with you you're like we're not French I don't do that so I'm not going to do that because it's not who I am and like ah right and so maybe people think I'm an asshole because I don't bring a bottle of one but I do you know like I will bring it I'll bring you a 12er of Coors light it'll be ice cold I may have to put it in my Yetty so it comes out and I would I will impress you in that way. And then you'll have to tell me if your wife likes wine, then we'll bring wine. Hey, dude. No, no, no. My wife's like me. She's good. She likes Coors Light?

She likes Coors Light? She likes Bud Light, but she'll drink Coors Light. She's like me. If it's cold and light, we're good. Now I know. Wait, hold on. Hold on. I'm writing this down.

12 her and a sixer. Bottles are cans. Don't tell me she's into cans. No, she's a bottle girl. I mean, she's kind of got a nuppity. And in her older age, she prefers bottles now. Mike, thanks for joining us. No problem.

I appreciate it, Doug. Be sure to catch live editions of the Doug Gottlieb show weekdays in noon Eastern 3 p.m. Pacific. All right, that was great with Mike Lewis. Let me give you this thought on the Houston Rockets. You know, the Rockets, I understand how they've used analytics. And I am not one of these ostrich, put your head in the sand, going to deny the value of analytics in basketball or in any sport. It's an important part of baseball.

It's an important part of football. It's an important part of basketball. But the perfect example of how the rockets spent too much time with analytics and not enough time building a team. And now they're trying to figure out how to fix what ails them and they may end up making more of a problem. Look at two years ago when they won, when they lost in game seven. Shibby pointed out that, and Zandre Godal is reminding us, he didn't play in that game.

He's a huge part of the Warriors. So the Rockets saying, well, we didn't have Chris Paul. The Warriors didn't have Andre Godal. He was not as good a player as Chris Paul. But he is almost as important to what the Warriors are able to do. But the point is, instead of maybe exploiting that mismatch, as they had done previously in the series, they became overly reliant on the three-point shot and missed 27 in a row. On paper, you shouldn't miss, in analytics, you shouldn't miss 27 in a row, right?

That there isn't, there isn't that kind of stretch. Because after you, you have the same percentage chance of missing one as you do the next one, as you do the next one, as you do the next one. That's how statistics work. It's not, you know, this whole water finds its level if you're a, you know, like, look, if you're a 40% shooter, you're a 40% shooter, you're a 40% shoot on every shot that you take. It doesn't believe in hot streaks. It does believe in hot spots, but not as much hot streaks. It's statistics.

And I think it has value. But the perfect example of why the rockets are in the mess that they're in, being good, but not able to be great and win a title, is on paper, Chris Paul and James Hardin work together. When they're both in the lineup, they're incredibly efficient offensively. They're a good basketball team. but Chris Paul, like the rest of us, hates watching James Harden dribbled a ball to death.

And James Harden, like the rest of us, is like, man, Chris Paul kind of seems old, right? And so they struggle to get along with each other. You can't see that in statistical data because, analytically speaking, the team is far better with both of them out in the court than they are with either of them off the floor. So now they're going to add Jimmy Butler,

his fourth team in four years, that's paying only attention to, we can be more efficient, we can be better instead of paying attention to how does the team actually feel and how do they get along? Good luck with that. Last thing is this, we're going to have more coaches on and basketball people on throughout the offseason. I do think Kansas would be my preseason number one. And I love the idea that the NCAA is going to continue to try and get back to the cutting down on the waivers.

It doesn't mean that I don't think that some kids transfer a home for the right reasons because you have a sick uncle or grandpa or mom or dad. But just enough people have lied about it and have gamed the system where we don't believe anybody anymore. That's really kind of what it is. It's the same reason you take off your shoes when you go through the airport screener. There was one guy who tried to blow out the world with his shoes. We all have to take our shoes just like 10 years later, more than 10 years later. Sorry, one guy kind of ruined it for the rest of us.

That's the way it works. And the reality is that if you're going to transfer a home, even for the reasons that, you know, you get a grandpa, you can take a year off and help that person get healthy or spend time with them while they're sick. Speaking of being sick, a rest in peace to Tony Barone, great basketball coach, awesome guy. and he was a coach of Tech S&M when I first got to Oklahoma State.

And I will never forget the last line I heard him say as head coach of Tech S&M. He had been fired. It was 1998 in March. And we were at the Herford House in Kansas City, where we always ate the night before the big 12 tournament. And he comes walking in in his maroon sweats just with his assistant coaches. And Eddie Sutton says, Tony, where's your team?

And Tony says, those fucking guys, I let them at McDonald's. They got my ass fired. How you doing, coach? He coached Benoit Benjamin at Creighton, which should earn him automatic entrance into the gates of heaven. St. Peter got himself an angel, we'll give him some wings. Tony's a good dude. And then his son just got the head coaching job at Southern Illinois, Edwardsville, I believe. I think Brian will do an excellent job.

Rest in peace to the great Tony Brony. I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is all ball. Hey, Singles. Do you feel like a tourist in your own town? Too busy to enjoy all your city has to offer? Events and Adventures organizes up to 30 unique get-togethers around town each and every month. We do all the work, so you have all the fun. On your schedule, visit places you didn't even know were places,

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I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff, like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me. He goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Quarterback on office blue with 42.

Hey, ref, my mama want you to wave at her. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clippers show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs.

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