The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Gottlieb - All Ball - part 2 of 2 - w/Special Guest Jay Bilas

Episode Date: September 7, 2018

Subscribe here to the All Ball with Doug Gottlieb Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2. All Ball with Doug Gottlieb is part of the Colin Cowherd Podcast Network. All Ball is an unfiltered podcast covering the biggest stories in college basketball and the NBA. Join Doug as he brings his unique perspective as a TV analyst and radio host. Join us this week for the second half of Doug's interview with special guest Jay Bilas where they discuss what it' was like to play, the future of the sport and more. Follow Doug on Twitter at @GottliebShow and go to theherdnow.com to find the latest content. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Scott Brooks next week on the All Ball podcast. It may be so good that like this one, we'll have to cut it up into two parts. In the meantime, let's dig back in with Jay Billis. If you missed last week, we got some of some of the early Jay Billis life. I found it fascinating

to hear his dad wasn't a basketball guy. Dad was blue collar. His mom said so many different interesting things. Or both his mom saying like, hey, if you're complaining about getting the basketball, why don't she, his dad said like, why don't you go get it when they miss? You know,

very matter of fact. And the idea that he went to play for Mike Shishowski before Mike Shishvsky was Coach K. you know, was America's basketball coach. And the reason why he turned down so many other historic programs was he just felt like Coach K was honest.

You know, he just felt like Coach K was a guy who, who did what he said and said what he did. And, and that struck him. Also the talk of, you know, the tales of him playing against Ralph Samson,

playing against Michael Jordan. And also, we talked to him about playing against Len bias, what type of player land bias was. All right. So the stuff with Jay was so good, we cut it up into two parts. And look, some of you have been waiting for me and Jay Billis to go at it head-to-head about amateurism. And in this podcast, you'll hear some of that.

At the end, I'll kind of circle back and give you a couple of my thoughts. I didn't want to make it an all-out war and argument over two sides. We simply agree to disagree. You'll hear Jay's side of it. You'll hear a little bit of my side of it. You can discuss with me on social media and what you think. So we'll set up Jay on the NCAA. Does he hate the NCAA?

Does he value the NCAA? Why he believes players should be outright paid, paid for their likeness. Should they be able to go straight from high school to the NBA or should they have to go to college? Plus, I'm going to ask them the question that I really want to know, which is you got all these different coaches that coached at Duke. Pick one, who should replace Mike Shishowski as Duke's next headbent's basketball? coach. All right, let's dig into it. Here's Jay Billis from the All Ball podcast. Okay, you mentioned Jordan and Sam Perkins. People forget how good, how great a college player, Sam Perkins was. They had that incredible team. When you first played against Michael Jordan, did, what was there, like, when you're playing against him, did you know, did you have any sense that he was different? He was more special than all those other talented players in the ACC?

Yes, we played the first time that I played on the same court with him was in pickup games. So back then, and I don't know what they do now, maybe they do the same thing. But back then, we would go to, we being the Duke guys, would go to Chapel. And he did not like playing pickup games. But when you saw him playing those, you're like, whoever said all men are created, nobody can do this. I'd never seen any. Honestly, Doug, that was the, I think you and I may have talked about this when we went to dinner with our wife. the summer.

That was the first, and, you know, like, your experience is probably the same. Like, you're growing up in Southern California, you play in high school, and the more work I put in, the better I got. And I really didn't think that there was a limit

as to how good I was going to get. And whoever I played against, I felt like I was just as good. And then I got to college and played against, there were three guys I played against where I was going, you know what? It doesn't matter what I do. I'm never going to be as good as those guys.

Samson, I can't match that. Didn't mean I couldn't win in the games that we played, and I couldn't be successful. But you're like, that's another gear, and I don't have that gear, and I'll never get it. That was a big deal to come to that realization. No, I remember when the Thunder, I took my wife to a Thunder playoff game,

and we're watching, and I was watching Tony Parker, who I marvel at. I think he's one of the more underrated players in the last 20 years in the NBA, but we were watching Russell Westbrook, and she's like, could you have played in this game? And I was like, yeah, I think I could have played in this game, but I would have no chance against Russell Westbrook.

Like literally no chance. He's just too athletic for, and I was really athletic, but he was just, he had another gear. Iverson, I felt like, was, you know, some guys are quick and some guys are fast. He was both, but he was wild. and you could go to him into taking shots that he couldn't make. I remember playing against Ray Out, but the guy that jumps out to me,

I played in what's now the Jordan game. It used to be the Magic's Roundball Classic. And I replaced Chonsie Bilbs got hurt. So I replaced Chonsie Bilbs. We practiced all week. And Kevin Garnett showed up the day of the game because he took the SAT on a Saturday and the game was on a Sunday. And he was trying to pass the SAT to play in college.

And like, look, all those guys, Paul Pierce was on. my team and he was a roommate at ABCD and I remember it was the first time I saw Vince Carter who no one could be in a dunk contest but Kevin Garnett showed up and he was just better than everybody else like there was a level to which all these the top players the Ron Mercer's of the world were playing Shereef Abdur Rahim and then Kevin Garnett without practicing at all playing in the game you're like he just he moves like a guard only he's six foot 10 so I know I know what you're talking about what about Len bias like obviously you talk about formative things you're in your life.

I remember Hank Gathers' death made me scared of heart arrhythmia. I remember that Magic Johnson contracting HIV made me scared of unprotected sex. And I remember Len Byest made me scared of cocaine. I didn't, the Big East we would see in California on Big Monday, the ACC,

I don't remember Len Byest. What was he like? He was one of the players I ever saw at that time. I felt like Superman. And guys' bodies didn't look like this back. Like there are certain guys that are put in the game. Just, those two things often don't go together. Two feet.

And then one of the best jump shooters. Like, he could really win the game. I was glad this. And I would actually, I would put Johnny Dawkins in this category. But Coach Kay had said that the three guys that back then in the 80s, Samson, Jordan, and Lynn Baez. When he got drafted by, like, I thought he was the best player, making him number one.

I think he died either one or two. That day, you know, my parents would always, Kennedy was assassinated a month before I was born. Talk about, one, the feeling, and two, exactly where I, everybody remembers. And that was, and even though it's totally different, I'm not trying to equate the things, but that was the same type of deal when Lynn Byas passed away. No, when Magic, when we found out, I was a high school freshman, I remember when Magic was going to announce that he had HIV. I remember my high school coach Tom McCluskey who played it for Dick Carter at Penn State. called us all in and he said, you know, a boys, you know,

Magic Johnson is going to announce that he has HIV. HIV is a virus that leads to AIDS and he's going to die from this and you have to take serious, you know, about unprotected sex. I just like everybody started crying. Like I remember that day. So I completely and totally get it.

You were, you were drafted in the 86 draft but you never played for the Mavs. Take me through what happened what it was like back then, being drafted and then going overseas, playing in Italy and Spain? I got drafted by Dallas, I think, in the fifth round. That was back when there were like six or seven rounds or whatever it was.

Maybe there were like eight rounds. I had teams at the time, maybe less than that. Maybe a male pick, and he was like the 24th pick in the draft, something like that. So I got drafted by Dallas. I went to camp. Dick Mata was the coach, and my draft class, I was the number one player. I think he was another guy where he had, I had thought, okay, well, if I go in there and play really well,

There were a couple guys I felt like, well, I think I'm better than these guys. And I found out, like, third day at, I already had 13-gare camp. I did the, and it's submitted. And my dad convinced me, you know, like I got as younger agents because that said, no, he said, go with Larry Flales this time. And that turned out to be really smart because, you know, I got a great deal in Italy to training camp the following year when John McLeod was a coach. And I just wasn't good enough. I was 6-8, and I was a power forward in a league where 6-8 power forwards aren't good, you know, I wasn't quick enough to stay in front of a three, and I wasn't big enough to hang with some of the fours in the league.

Now, could I have hung on somewhere? Yes, I think I could have happened. And overseas before, I was never cut by the Dallas Mavericks and story, but doing like a Louisville Southern Miss game or something. And I ran into Keith Grant. He was like the equipment, where you're still on our, 1996 or whatever. Yeah, you could have been part of some like trading. There's guys that aren't in the NBA.

Keith Van Horn's been part of trades even after he's done playing. You should have hung on to that status. You could have gotten some extra money. They trade those guys and they throw some money out of them just to make the money work and all that. That would have been a nice way to, you know, you've been through it and you were a lot closer to the NBA than I was. No, I was not. That's not true.

It's a dream of yours to play, but for me, because, you know, after good, going through four years of college, and I played on with the guys I played with and the coach I played for, loved it. But it was kind of cool when I went to Italy and I stopped in your among the fun again. And at 89 season, like I had, you know, I got a nice thing. So why quit? I got a job offer. Coach K had called me and said, I got an opening on my staff. And I had told him, and he said, that's fine.

but I just don't know that this is going to come around for you again. A nice way of saying right after that, and it was Coach Kay's idea that I do. I think he was pulling the strings on all of it. And so I think it was all kind of part of a plan that he had that, look, you said you wanted to do this. I'm going to help you make it happen. And I told him when I was in high school that I was interested in broadcasting. I didn't know what that meant involved in it, and I started working during the summertime. And so he really held in the broadcast industry to where I had,

I had built a bunch of great events and it gives for me to get into it later. And then the whole law school coaching thing. I don't know when Wendy and I got married decided to go a different direction. We'll get around to that in a second. You're on the staff in 1990. My favorite player was Bobby Hurley. And I remember just being devastated. And so many of my friends loved UNLV.

You know, UNLV, and this goes back to my dad was an assistant, recruited you some at Longby State. and UNLV used to come in and they were bigger and badder and my dad coach Craig Hodges was assistant under text winner and Craig Hodges was their best player UC Irvine actually had great players

probably as good or better more pros maybe than UNLV and they'd beat UNLV but UNLV would always win the PCAA and I remember that 1990 National Championship game and Bobby was sick and running off to the bathroom but what was that like to be a part of it

because there was a bit of a trend there Going back to when you went to the first Final Four, Coach K, was that Duke would kind of exceed expectations and find a way to get to a Final Four, but you guys couldn't seemingly win a Final Four, win a national championship. You get to the finals in 90 and just get annihilated. What happened?

My senior year in 86 and they had a single season in that bucket, as they got to after that, maybe 89, 90, or I think it's still the, and it just got away from us. And, you know, the kind of the interesting thing, and I learned so much from Coach Kay in so many different ways, but being in the semifinals the following year in 91, you know, the staff back then was, and Coach Kay is like, no, we're showing it to them.

We're going to show them all the mistakes we made, and if we clean up this, this, and this, we're going to be in the game at the end with a chance to win, and that's where we live. We live in close games. They don't play in any mistakes on it. If we do this better, if we eliminate this, all this stuff. And then he told them, like, we're going to be in this game at the end.

But on the bench, as an assistant watching that, stop it. Every time we go, nothing, nothing. I don't know. With that, you're not as close. When you finish second, you know, it's interesting. I actually, I'm not over to the Elite 8,

and I played poorly, we all played poorly. And Florida, if you look at their roster, they were incredible. I would, look, I can't argue with somebody who actually played in the championship game. I would say that outside of losing in the championship game, the second worst loss is in the Elite 8, because as you know, being a part of a Final Four

team is immortality. Yeah, that's a fair point. That's exactly right. That's so, so. Like, I, I remember, I remember, we were in Syracuse, New York, and Grant Wall was following me around. And he's like, look, if you win this game, you're going to be on the cover of Sports Illustrated, because you got a great story, right?

And I just, I remember it. So, remember waking up, like, thinking I'm going to dream about cutting down the nets. I'm going to wake up, dreaming about it, and I'm going to make it happen. I'm just going to, I'm just going to make it happen. And we got down early. got a technical foul. We got down like 13.

We came back. We tied the game up. And then Mike Miller hits a three in transition. And like that was that. We just did not have it. And we didn't have a great game plan. It was everybody was involved in the loss. And I remember watching them cut the nets down.

And it was like, you're living my destiny. So I can't imagine what that would be like in the national championship game watching Purvis Ellison, never nervous Purvis, cut down the nets. Yeah, but I would say the elite aid is the second worst of the losses to the least of the change. I mean, and you'd think at our age, look, it's not as, it's not as sharp of pain as it was the, you know, the six months afterward. And you'd think at age, the funny part, Doug, is that we're Duke won back to back in 91 and 92. So, you know, I tasted sort of the championship, the national championship wins in those years, just on championship and said, I think he said something in the fact does it when you're

Coach Kay being not the same feeling you only get a couple of shots out of it maybe only one as a player and he's going to have even more and so there's just something something different about when you're a player all right so there's two players I want to ask you well actually two players I want to ask you about

on those back-to-back teams you added in Grant Hill and there's I've come to know him and I know how close of friends you are your families are. And there's incredibly special about him as a person that I don't know if it translates on TV. I don't know if now kids, because of the injuries, the injury that he suffered in the pros. And look, he still played to.

He's like 40. But I don't know if people understand how breathtaking a player he was. But also just there is this regal way by which he carried himself to which you could fall out the sky and be in a gym and watch him walk in and go like, I don't know anything about the sport, but that guy is different than the rest of him. Give me, to somebody who doesn't understand what made Grant Hill so special as a player, and I know he's still special as a person. What was it?

Front, even though you asked me about, Duke's never put out a better guy in Grant himself, guys like Kyrie Irving and Marvin Bagley, the third, and all these guys that have been, because I think Grant was like the third pick in the draft when he came out. I think it was Glenn Robinson and Jason Kiddwin in front of him. You'd guard anybody who, you know, think this. I've researched his numbers as far as points, rebounds, assistance, steals in the first seven years in the league. And guys like Robertson, guys like that.

And, you know, the greats of the great, I happen to believe, like, he's going into the basketball Hall of Fame in early September, the May Smith Basketball Hall of Fame. I think he's as deserved that before he was injured, stuff he had to deal with, deal with the fame that he would have arrived guys that have ever. the other side to that is his is uh christian layner who played in the dream team uh had incredible run his last two years winning you know back-to-back national championships but he had he had that that different sort of edge right like uh i i grew up my sister was the ucla cheerleader we were

season ticket holders and and similarly um don mclean and they played against each other had that kind of same nasty nits in edge i mean look he was kind of an asshole when he played both of them but they were really, really good to somebody who didn't understand, like, because you look back, you look like dream team, you start going through all the guys, you're like, Christian Leitner, really? What was he like? Completely competitive, and he's smart and all that stuff. But that didn't translate back then because he didn't care outside the program.

And I think he did care what they'd say that to them. Now, maybe I'm missing, maybe I'm forgetting a little thing here there, Doug, but I don't ever remember him being, whether he played Shaquille O'Neal, You name the guys he played against. I don't remember anybody out playing. He was going to be a much better... The Minnesota Timberwell. He played 12 years or so.

An average, like, 60 in a game for his career. He could be abrasive here and there. There are two things about him that I'll never forget. One is... So, he could walk on his hands from baseline to baseline. And, you know, I grew up in rolling with other basketball players. Yeah. And I was always really impressed with...

You know, guys say they do that. every drill and thought they should be doing. He let them know a different breed in that regard. Okay, so 92, you guys went back to back and you leave to become a lawyer. You were a, you were a defense, a criminal defense attorney, right? Stuff I did was pro bono work. I was a, I started as a bankruptcy lawyer because I could get into court. You got to sit second chair and do a bunch of research stuff to get, you know, into bankruptcy for nothing more than sort.

And so I did commercial legal litigation before I wound up hanging it up. up. Okay, so before you hung it up, how did it come? And you mentioned that during some summers, you did some TV stuff. When was the first time you started working for ESPN, Colin Games? You know, the best thing, if I stayed in coaching, experience with your dad, and we didn't think that was a though. We just decided for us it was the best thing to, you know, I'd practice law, and we'd sort of move on. And I got an offer to do radio games from a guy named George Abel called me and offered me the Duke the money was next to nothing

but maybe it could lead to something else and if I didn't, if it doesn't work out, I'll quit. And in 1995 ESPN offered me some games and so I started doing games for you and you know how it is. One thing leads to a games and then I figured that we're in pocket

podcasting, I screwed it up, but I could just start my practice and go back and start my practice up again. It wouldn't be that hard. A good decision. I think I enjoyed practice in law You know, sitting at basketball games a hell a lot more fun. No question about it. There was, the breakthrough I was told with you at ESPN was when you did the women's tournament. And it was your ability to do the research and then to still be you and analyze a game,

but while doing the women's game, which showed not just a passion board, but also an understanding of the work it took. Do you remember what year that was that you first did the women's tournament? Yeah, it was two. beginning of the year, if I remember right, you know, the NCAA had complained to ESPN about having professional people of the women's tournament. Nancy Lee, WMBA, and I was told the NCAA to study it. I think you're right, sort of, that that was a step forward for me because I had done several years of men's games, but I was doing sort of smaller conferences and all that. And it was a bigger platform, honestly. So when I got to the, you know, in Yukon that

year beat Tennessee in the final. And it was sort of, then they got this recruiting class coming in and like this. And I had said after the game, like, look, this isn't a fluke. You better get used to this because Tennessee, like it's not Tennessee anymore. It's Yukon. And it's going to be for the force. It's been a change. There's been a sea change and it's over. And that caused some waves when I said that. People didn't say that about Pat something. I think I felt confident in what I was talking about. But I think you're right. Like that was a, and that was a really fun time. And then I started doing the WMBA, trying to get the NBA. So it was a fun time. And I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed all that stuff. But I only did the women's tournament that one year.

Yeah, no, it was it was something I actually learned from it, which was Dave Revston, in front of both of ours, to share it with me. He said, you know, the lesson there is that, while it might not be important to the public, it's important to Bristol. And if you do something well that's important to Bristol. They pay attention. Like I did the, working with you guys and the game day guys, one day I went on the road was the launch of ESPNU, and I did a month with ESPNU,

and that kind of propelled me because no one else was watching ESPNU, but everybody, Mark Shapiro and the guys in Bristol were, and that kind of elevated me in their eyes, and I had a much bigger slate the next year. So I actually took from that and used it in my own career. All right. So then to me, the best, like, look, Al McGuire probably provided the most color, but I'm not sure if you look back. His analysis was nearly what some of the analysis we hear from people like you today.

So, you know, I know that some people say Al McGuire, I would say the best broadcast team anyone has ever had in college basketball. And I've worked with some of the guys that you work with. But I think you, McDonough and Bill Raftery, whether it would start in Maui and then would go through Big Monday. And look, I'm a tough critic, right? And you and I would have it out on some, like, basketball battles. And I just felt my, I just, one, I would learn about basketball. I learned about the teams. And I would laugh.

I mean, really, really laugh. What was that team like to work? Because I, that's the best college basketball has ever been broadcast, in my opinion. What was that, what was that like? And I think that's more about McDonough and Raftery than me. But it was, when I, the first time I got, I worked, somebody had the bright eye, you know, at Notre Dame.

It's Miller time and you know how I... And then McDonough says, except on Big Monday, brought to you by Bud Light. And I was like, all right, this is, I like this. And I felt self-conscious about being there

because it was like being dropped in the middle of living about this. Like, it was, we had fun on that no matter would be to get up the next morning. I was not going to say no to Bill Raftery. So if he wanted to go out,

we're going to, and there was more than a few times where I had to drag myself to the air times that, that you're not sending troops to war in this thing. We can kind of realize anybody I've ever worked with FDSPN. I think it should have been this. That nobody deserves history than Bill,

and there's not a more talented than Sean McDonough. Yeah, I feel bad for Sean, though. I feel like, you know, the Monday Night Football thing didn't work, and I feel like some of that was that, you know, you parachute in there with Gruden, and he didn't have the chemistry that he has with you or that he had with Raft, and it's pretty obvious when you put the right mix together,

he's an outstanding, an outstanding game caller, as good as anybody in the business. Look, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you about amateurism. You and I have, whether when we work together or now Twitter or your various shows, we have obviously the opposite opinion of it. But I think many people view your approach to it as, you know, one, you just, you don't like the NCAA. And then two, you think, I don't want to put it. words in your mouth, you think that amateurism is kind of a sham. How would you characterize

kind of your feelings first about the NCAA and whether or not that organization is fixable? Well, first, I don't dislike the NCAA. While some people use the term hypocrisy, I try to use the term, you know, contrary, they counter policies. My thing has always been about policy rather than people. They're great people at the NCAA. There's so many of them that that are my um so we may differ on kind of like you and i may differ on i don't think you and i differ all that much

you know same economic rights as everybody else so at your position the athletes get enough and and uh... you know wait your four years and then you can go you know make money later on and and it's it's if you don't like it uh go somewhere you know jump in but believe that the play and folks within the structure say

well that you can't make your fair market student that they say well can't you can't be an employee the athlete is the only one. You do name image of the idea that to have the same economic rights as literally a person. Why should the athlete be the only? I don't get that. Or just as I am with. I see, I would actually, I don't, I'm not necessarily absolutist in terms of you do it this way or you're gone or go do something else.

I do think that one of the things is undersold is, look, there is the opportunity for players to come straight to high school, go to the G League for a year, and then put their name in the NBA draft. And to this point, no one's done it, right? There was the kid that was going to go to Syracuse, but now he's not doing the G-League this year anyway. My feeling is actually, it's almost like a salary cap, right? Like the underrated part of the salary cap is not that there's a ceiling, but that there's a floor. And I do actually think that players are compensated.

They're compensated with all of the benefits of scholarships, but also compensated in terms of the promotion, the kind of endless, ceaseless promotion that both of us are a part of, right? That's what we do. We educate the American public and, frankly, their future fans on these players at a very young age, right when they come to college. And being tied to the name of the university, the image of the college coach, they used kind of the branding of the school and of the coach to kind of be promoted within the sport.

And I think there's a value there. I also think there's a value to simply being admitted to school. Like I couldn't have gotten to Notre Dame on my own then, let alone now with. my grades when I was in high school, I had no chance of getting in, especially as, as you know, putting kids through school, how difficult it is just to get into many of these schools. So I don't think it's as much cut and dry, hey, if you don't like it, you know, be gone with you. I actually think there's a lot more value in, for the floor, for the non-one percenters. And that's who we're protecting, even if there's a couple of guys that could make a couple of dollars

off their name and likeness. Is that fair? And the other part is that I look at it as, hey, all these colleges, they've been, they're making money off of all of their students. You talk about, they're actually making money off of all of their students, whether it's the research they do or simply the admission that they pay for. Athletes are no different. And making money off of students is only, we're only more aware of what they make off

the students because of the TV rights. We're not aware of what they make off of the grants and the other things that they make off of the research. of the students that isn't as publicized. Yeah, those are fair to argue that your points on the value side when you say, okay, they're getting this value and that value and all that. Those are all fair points. But to me, my argument would be, well, if they're so valuable,

let those things stand on their own the marketplace. Because you could certainly make the same argument that the same platform and have all these other, you know, they get all these other benefits from working in this industry. And they wouldn't be percent. percent wouldn't be as coveted on the NBA level. But yet they're making millions of dollars because the college market is its own separate and distinct market. So one's value in the NBA is not reflective of one's value in the college market. And your point about, you know,

other students, there's no, it keeps everybody from, like when you say that, you know, you feel that the player, I agree with that, they are compensated, but they say they're students, they're not employees. And we make the argument that they are compensated. Look at what they're getting. They do get things, but really what they get more than anything is they get limited, any regard across the board. And so, like, look, it's a fundamental difference that we have. And I don't think it's, I don't think it's any sort of craziness on either person's side. Like, I don't look at that argument, Davis every once in a while. He'll say, now, at the end of the choice, basically choosing why they do it, I get why they make the arguments they're making because they can keep all the money.

I have to. But this way, no, soon. And the NCAA is fortress. I think we're going to do just fine. In the college in the 80s. Coach Kay was probably making when I was playing no more than $100,000. If I had said to the, and that's not what college sports is about, we'll never do that. I say this.

That flies in the face. We'd be just fine if the players can. But reasonable minds can differ on these things, and I don't have any problem with somebody's. My fear is not whether or not they pay them or not. I do have a legit concern about the state of the game. It appears that the NBA is going to go back to the, you know, you can come straight at a high school. It appears, that seems to be a formality.

And as much as there are a couple of kids who can kind of make the jump and within a couple of years, you know, be good enough, you and I both know that if there's five that can make it, there's 55 or so that think they can make it. You combine that with the fact that every game is on TV, my network, your network, the network both of us used to spend some time

with it at CBS. They broadcast games. NBC has some. It's kind of been polluted. There's games on every day. There's nothing special about a TV game like there used to be. Like Big Monday used to be it. You're on Big Monday. You're on National TV. Vital was there. Billis is there. That was it. That was the biggest game.

It's not as much that way. There's more NBA games on now. So even your big Saturday night games, which used to be it, there's also, you know, on ABC you got NBA basketball. I am concerned about the future of college basketball. You know, a lot of college basketball coaches want the baseball rule. Stay, stay for three years. Go straight at a high school or stay for three years.

My problem is, doesn't that make college basketball, college baseball, where people don't really care nearly as much? That's my concern with the state of game even more so than whether or not we pay players. That's legit. But, and I do think it keeps running down the tracks the way it is. Maybe concussions change that. I mean, I don't think concussions are, you know, so this concussion issue is going to, it's an existential problem. All game can lead that, so does basketball do better as a result?

I don't know the answer to that, but we can't compete. I have, Doug, is that, I believe in education, stay in college and not for bad. I did come back, and they should be welcomed back, and we should then be off with you, and we don't care. One and done rule. One and done is not. We, like they did, so they're just going to reclass and get into college and still be gone after one year. I want to win USA basketball and picking the best player what, you know, these European academies, especially in soccer, we seem to be headed that way. Player that's, these guys don't know how good I am, I'm leaving.

Are we going to welcome them back? How are we going to take what's going to keep, say we don't like the AAU guys? They're going to sponsor the high schools. Sort of a different time. I'm going to stop the flow of Moom's character says, think we're going to make a couple of just don't think it's going to work. work that way. I'm like nobody was eligible when I played strictly. Somebody took something. Everybody took something. And I don't think there are very many players, honestly, very many good players. Any team that's won a national championship ineligible way. Yeah, I use a different

Jurassic Park reference. I reference Raptors. I feel like coaching high school and college players is there like Raptors. Remember when they explain that every day they test a different part of the fence, right? And that's what's like to raise. That's. That's what's like to raise. I'd steal that one. That's what it's like to raise kids, right? Every day they test you, but they test a different part of the fence. They learn, they learn, right? They leave just as big a pile of feces around as those of those.

Last thing, you've been more than gracious with your time. What else do you want to do? Like, you've done a lot. You're in your early 50s. Your kids are now going to be often as you and your wife, you guys, we shared a dinner, and it was great. Wendy's incredible. but now you can

It actually It actually is I'll give you I'll give you the substance sometime offline But what There's been talk of Hey do you want to head up

College basketball You did coach You've been a lawyer You've broadcasted NCAA tournament games The top guy at EA You have your pick of games At ESPN

What You got 40 years You left here At least on this soil What else you want to do? I can tell you My biggest focus is that my wife gets to do what she wants to do. She's put a lot of time to doing what other people want to do,

whether it's me or our kids. And so whatever she wants to do, that's going to be. Like on the front of the game, like I enjoy the heck. I like you do, enjoy the heck out of my job. I can't imagine leaving it fun. The only stress every time there's been a committee, you want me to sit on a committee, I'll sit on it. You want me to do that?

I'll do it. I'll do it. Show up. So if there's a look, I don't think that's ever going to happen. But if the NCAA structure looking to, like, I'm not, I'm not thinking it, whatever they're doing. I'm, I'm, next week, I have no idea. But I'm going to feel like I can do other things. If I get kicked to the curb, I'll figure something out.

But right now I'm enjoying what I'm doing. I just do the job you have a question about, you know, kind of what do you want to, looking for it. Okay. I said that was my last one, but since you're looking to help, let's say Coach Kay calls you up in the phone. And he says, I need you to come down to Durham. It's very, very important. He comes down, he says, all right, I get this list here. I got Bobby, I got Tommy, I got Doc, I got Wojo of Collins,

Quinn's doing an amazing job with the jazz. I mean, I would not discussed enough is how good a coach Quinn Snyder has become. That's exactly right. I just saw him a couple days ago. He's as Brad Stevens is. I'm not sure he's any better than Quinn Snyder. I don't, I'm not sure I believe he is. I think Quinn, among the young coaches, he's at the top of the game with anybody.

I went to the Clipper Series two years ago when they, beat the Clippers in seven, and I went to two different games, and I sat there with Colin Cowher, a colleague of mine, I was like, Quinn Snyder is a hellaciously good basketball coach. They get exactly what they want in every key situation. And then you got Kable who just got another job with Pitt. Who should be the guy? Great question, and I'm going to sound like I'm dodging it, but I don't think I am. I don't know, because I don't know how much longer.

I think, Doug, if you'd ask me this five years ago, like how much longer is Coach Kagan to go? I would have said, well, you know, another five years. And I feel like it's going to be another five years from now. I think the only thing that gets him out of basketball is that he's, I went on that trip that they took to Canada in early August or August 13th, whatever it was like that. And I think this is right, like from April 2016, I think I read this somewhere, April 20, different surgeries, and physically healthy, mentally.

So, like all the guys you named, whether there's Tommy Amaker, Johnny Dawkins, I don't think Quinn Snyder is going to leave the NBA. That's going to be from like this deep-seated, you know, I think replacing coach tree of college sports and maybe up in this at that school for, I think this is a year 39. Didn't play on television. I even think it's going to be a harder act of football.

Maybe the best football. And arguably, you know, you can put them up with any NFL coach. I don't know. But I think this is going to be the hardest act to follow. I think it's going to be a real. And I don't know that I would limit it to Duke people. You know, you've seen this. icons that are being basketball,

the next guy has to be from the family. Just get the best guy. Well, Roy was. I mean, Roy's the one guy, and he's finally, and look, it took him a while to, you know, to get around to that, but they bought Roy home, and that clearly has worked, and that's the one.

Yeah, that's a good point, but that's an extraordinary happening. I understand, I understand, but, that's like the outwire, isn't it? Like, who else have we, if we had? You might have had a, you know, Gene Stalling, you know, comes from the Bear Bryantry and wins a national championship, but it wasn't like he was there that long.

You don't have icon replacing icon that often. That's an extraordinary. And, you know, somebody's got to take the job after Coach Kay, but man, that is going to be a good and they'll do great. I can't tell you how thankful I am to, one, have gotten to hang out with you and Wendy. Next year, you're going to allow us to pick up the tab when you're in our hometown. but and then all the time you spent with us tonight. I really, really appreciate it. And I'm happy to call you a friend.

And I can't tell you how much I appreciate the time that you spent with us here on this podcast. Well, that's a deal, brother. All right. We'll see you down the road in college basketball season. And thanks for being our guests. That's Jay Billis, of course, of ESPN, their lead college basketball analyst.

I could give you a wrap-ups or I could sit here and point to things. I'll allow you to tweet about it. obviously breaking it down into two different parts because of its length. I hope you enjoyed it. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Two guys from similar sort of area, different sort of backgrounds, but both of us love Ball. Hope you loved Ball Ball.

Wow, Jay Billis was incredibly gracious with his time. Feel free to tweet at him, to tweet at me, your thoughts on the podcast. And remember, Scott Brooks next week, and he has great stories. but my sincere gratitude and thanks to Jay spending so much time talking about him, talking about wrath, talking about what it was like to play, what it's been like to cover,

and his own future and his thoughts on Duke and college basketball, NBA basketball, a sport that we love, and that's kind of brought us together as friends. I hope you enjoyed listening. Remember to subscribe, download, and rate us, and tune in next week to Scott Brooks, the head coach of the Washington Wizards.

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