The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Gottlieb - All Ball - Remembering John MacLeod; Warriors' weaknesses; Grad transfers; Auburn Asst. Steven Pearl talks Final Four run.

Episode Date: April 18, 2019

Subscribe here to the All Ball with Doug Gottlieb Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2.  This week, Gottlieb remembers his former coach John MacLeod, who passed away this week, looks at Warriors' playoff vulnerabilities, and talks with Auburn Assistant Steven Pearl on playing for, and coaching with his dad, and how Auburn's incredible Final Four run came together. Subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2.  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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That's guyco.com. Hi, I'm Doug Galdim, and welcome in to this week's edition of All Ball. We got a great show for you, a great pod for you, excuse me, as Stephen Pearl, assistant coach at Auburn, who just won the SEC tournament, went to the Final Four and lost on a crazy, crazy series of events that led to Kyle Guy making three free throws in a row. Stephen Pearl is going to join us. We'll talk about his personal journey to becoming an assistant coach playing for his dad, what this has been like being beside his dad as a player when he got fired at Tennessee, what he did when his dad went to TV and how he's climbed the ladder at Auburn

to be kind of the defensive guru, if you will, for the Auburn Tigers in the SEC tournament championship and final four run. But I want to start with a guy who passed away this week at the age of 81. one. His name's John McLeod. And kind of the quick rundown of John McLeod. He was head coach at Oklahoma with Alvin Adams. He then went to the pros and was head coach of the Phoenix Suns, coached in what many people believed to be the greatest NBA game of all time,

four overtime NBA finals game against the Boston Celtics. He was later the head coach of Dallas Mavericks and the New York Knicks. And he was my head coach at Notre Dame. And while I would be honest, like he really unique career path, right? Like he was a boxer. He was not a basketball player growing up. And then he was a high school coach before he became a college coach. So just unique in terms of the comparison to my life growing up in a basketball household. That said, what basketball lost, maybe what society lost was a complete and total gentleman.

And some of these things are kind of funny and clever and interesting. And I'll have some a couple of my former teammates on who are on to bigger and brighter things since playing at Notre Dame. but I first met him or first talk to him on the phone in 1994. 94, I got home from ABCD camp. Back then there was Nike and ABCD. We were a Sunny Vaccaro ABCD kind of group, our high school team, AU team.

Sunny had sponsored us back when he was at Nike and we followed him to Converse and then to Adidas. Got home from ABCD, which was at Fairley Dickinson. Year before, I hadn't played as well. Yipsilani, I was young. and I was okay. And then I started

getting recruited by a couple of high majors. And then Notre Dame called the first day I got home. And I'll never forget the phone call. Dougie, this is Coach John McLeodham, head coach at Notre Dame. How'd you like to be a member of the Irish?

I was like, well, coach, Notre Dame's a great school. And he said, tomorrow we're going to announce, we're going to the Big East Conference. You watch the Big East conference? And I was like, yeah, coach. I grew up love in the Big East.

You know, Scott McCorkel and Mike Hopkins and Loran Ellis and played for my dad. And of course, my mom went to Syracuse and watched Yukon and Georgetown and Villanova and Boston College and all those teams. Tomorrow we're going to announce Notre Dame

is going to join the Big East Conference and you'd be my starting point guard the first year in the Big East. How's that sound? I'd love to go. I'd love to take a visit to Notre Dame. I hadn't grew up, I'm going to grow up Jewish. I didn't grow up an Irish Catholic Notre Dame fan,

but I wanted to see Notre Dame play football against Michigan, and I got that wish. It was an amazing weekend, and they're trying to convince us that that's not touchdown Jesus, that's three-point Jesus. But here's the thing. Most of you who are basketball dudes or basketball ladies

that listen in this podcast, you know that perception does not match reality. Sometimes recruiters can be a little gray with the truth. Head coaches can as well. But there's often more and more good people than there are bad people in this sport. John McLeod was the best of those.

type of people. He met when he said and said what he meant. And I've just, I've never met a man that, that was such a gentleman, right? Like literally a gentleman, would not scream at you, would not curse at you. And everything he said he would do at Notre Dame for me, he did. I didn't live up to my end of the bargain. He lived up to his. So from the moment I first arrived Notre Dame until the time, even after I left, he always, did what he said and said what he would do. So I share a couple of quick stories. So John McLeod was, he was a gentleman and he believed,

Notre Dame, Notre Dame, we have to dress with class. They watch us. And so we were coat and tie, every airplane, every bus ride. And when we were in the hotel, like you couldn't dress like a slob. Like you had to wear your Nike, Notre Dame sweats and a sports. specific shirt underneath. And everything had to be tucked in. Everything had to be, with the exception of Keith Karrowsky from Christian Brothers,

a jersey kid who had some boogers on his sleep. With that is the exception, everybody was like clean-shaven, looked kind of well put together. He used to make us, you'd get up to leave the table and you weren't dismissed until you tucked your chair in under the table. Look people in the eye. I'll never forget my first team meeting at Notre Dame. He drew up like a makeshift auditorium, and he circles the first two rows. And he says, not there, not there, not there.

Notre Dame, we sit in the first two rows. And we honestly had the ability to audible out of practice out of any sort of workout if it was pertaining to school. You had to study for a test. Go. We'll see. Let it go. And he said that would be his, and no matter how bad or how tough. the season was, that's what we would do.

He didn't raise his voice to you. He would get stern and he would get mad. And he would say Notre Dame, we're immature. But if he really wanted to lay India, he would get back to your dorm room. There'd be a red blinking light. It'd be a secretary. He'd say, coach would want to see you at such and such time. He'd come in.

She'd be very nice. He'd be very nice and formal. Shake your hand, you'd walk in and close the door. And that's when he would play some tape and it wasn't usually good. he was a man of immense class respect dignity and integrity and i you know like look it might be selfish to to say or self um i don't know what the term is like egotistical i think to say but i have no doubt had i not gotten in trouble at notre dame he he would have kept his job longer because we were you know as pack herity was a sophomore i was a freshman and tony weish

and Phil Hickey were freshmen as well. And we were adding a really good recruiting class. And my boy, David Lalazarian was coming out from... Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending. Opinions are flying. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened.

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Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. My high school, and by my senior year, I have no doubt that was the year he got fired. After what would have been my senior year, we got fired. We would have made an NCAA tournament. Right? We would have made an NCAA tournament.

He would have kept his job. And even after that, he wasn't bitter. Well, I posted a letter on Facebook. He wasn't bitter. He wasn't a jerk. He was always so classy and so dignified, even though I had done his program wrong, not just in my actions and the way it made his program look,

but remember at Notre Dame at that point in time, they weren't allowed to take transfers. You couldn't go late. There were no grad transfers. There were no transfers period late in the year. They didn't take any. We had guys that want to transfer in play. It couldn't take any.

That was the university's policy. Obviously, it changed the second he got fired. I think Matt Dordy got to take Ryan Humphreys from Oklahoma and history changed. So look, you can remember him as an incredible college coach. You can remember him as a coach who coached Alvin Adams to success at Oklahoma or a coach for a short period of time at Notre Dame. We ran what would be kind of blocker mover or I called a two-side motion.

We ran a lot of NBA sets. There were some defensively. We forced middle. We were kind of pack line before anybody called it pack line. But I think he should be remembered as a guy. guy that carried himself with incredible class dignity and integrity. And, uh, I mean, he even smelled good. His hair was always cut.

I never saw him unshaven. Ever. Like, you know, you're around a guy in an entire year. You think there's one day he comes in. You're like, man, he must have stayed up late watching tape. Nope, not, not Johnny Mack. Passed away at the age of 81 years old, a legendary NBA head coach who I got a chance to play for my year at Notre Dame.

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to the media in regards to why people think he's being passive. Well, we had a nice flow of the game. You know, let's go back to the whole last month of the season. We've been playing this way for a while. And when we got to this series, you know, game one, we had some nice momentum. They're playing a gimmick defense, which has been working, top-locking everything on the perimeter.

So guys not even looking at the three-point line. They're just forcing guys inside the three-point line. So for us, when I get the ball in my spots, you know, I got a pest, Patrick Beverly, who was up underneath me. Well, I could definitely shoot up. the top and score every time if it's a one-on-one situation. But we got a guy that's dropping and helping,

and then we got another guy that's just sitting on me waiting for me to juggle the basketball. If I put the basketball on the floor, I can, you know, I can probably make 43% of my shots if I shoot him like that. But that's not really going to do nothing for us at the outcome of the game, you know, because we've got a nice floor. Everybody touching the route. Now, you may not want to hear it, and you may not want to accept it, and you may wonder why KD would get a pass from people.

I don't think he does. I think he's pretty interesting. Like, here's a guy who people have said too much of a ballstop or too much one-on-one. He kind of ruins what Golden State is. And then he tries to buy into what Golden State's doing and they get beat. They did lead. Like, I wouldn't bury the lead. They were up 31 points.

His passive nature was working. He wasn't on the floor for all of the 31-point comeback. But I thought that was really interesting. Look, they're playing a defense, which I, I got one underneath me, and I got a dude waiting for me. And we got to figure out ways to score. They're running us off the three-point line. And our attack, however flawed it became, we were up 31 points.

I find Kevin Rand to be amazing to watch. I'm interested to see what he does in game three. I'm fascinated by the idea that even though he outplayed LeBron James in the last two NBA finals, and he's won an NBA MVP, and he can play both ends, and he has a virtually unstoppable pull-up jump shot. He still can't seem to win people over. Why? Because he fights the people on Twitter? Or is it because he left the Oklahoma City Thunder? One of the reason he left the Oklahoma City Thunder was this type of defense. There was always two guys on them. Always. But I'm a little concerned if I was the Thunder in regards to the Rockets.

It's not just losing DeMarcus cousins, who I'm not convinced made them better, but this team was not built to have a viable backup big guy. I'm like, KD has two guys on him because Kavana, you're going to leave him open. You're going to dare him. Kvon Luni, he scores 30, we tip our cap to you. That's how you think. So between Luni and Jordan Bell

and who's had his own issues with Steve Kerr, or Andre Godala, does he have enough left in the tank or Sean Livingston? Like, can they find that fifth guy? And can they get, you know, enough offense out of the non-big three, we shall see. But I thought there was a perfectly interesting response.

He told you he responded to basketball questions. That's a basketball question. He gave you a thorough answer. What more do you want? I don't know. But he also told you he was the best player in the game. And then he outplayed LeBron James the last two NBA finals.

What more do you want? I don't know. I still think it's going to end up with the Celtics will win. I think the Raptors are going to win. I think the Rocket series is going to be amazing against the Golden State Warriors. But I would guess the Warriors still have enough.

But we'll see. Last thing is this in regards to the grad transfer rules, which may change. I understand that we want to create freedom for athletes to benefit from the fact that you graduate on time, you should get another year, you should get that year of eligibility to spend wherever you want. But you should still have to set out a year because we're destroying the low majors. It also puts the high majors like UCLA and Cal and programs that have really no grad program that you can transfer into at a late date, them at a prohibited disadvantage. More than anything,

hurts the parody of the sport. I'm not saying you can't transfer up from a lower level to a higher level if you get better and you improve. Does it leave your boys in the dust shore? But one, there's some buyer beware. There's the cremose of the world, the kid from Albany who,

that destroys Albany, you lose your best player. And he didn't help Villanova. He was better at a lower level. But also, if you're a player, where's your home? Where's your alma mater? You spend two, three, four years at a place. And then you leave because you got another year left.

and you could transfer up, like, I don't think you're going back to that place and you're not a member of the new place where you graduate. All right, let's get you to Stephen Pearl. He's a longtime friend of mine. He's assistant coach at Auburn. Auburn won the SEC tournament, went all the way to the final four

and nearly, nearly beat Virginia, as you know, in the national semifinals. All right, so, like, here's the interesting part, Pearl. Here's the interesting part, is there are some, is it a Venn diagram, right? We have the concentric, the circles that kind of combined, right, between your dad and my dad's relationship, both of them having coached at UW Milwaukee, and then, of course, you know, the Maccabi Games thing. Like, there are some definitely ties that bind.

You're born in Indiana, weren't you? I was born Iowa City, Iowa. And coach was an assistant under Dr. Tom Davis. Okay, that's the first part we want to get to is not just under Dr. Tom Davis, but the fact that you have a tendency to call them coach. Like, is there a time? You also call him BP. Like, when did it switch from, when, when is there, is there ever a dad or is there a Bruce or how does it, how do you address your father?

I think it all switched when I start playing at Tennessee. You know, I think it switched to coach and BP pretty quickly because you don't want to be, you know, that guy on the team calling your coach dad. So ever since I played for him, because I never really played for him growing up, He coached baseball or football teams of mine, but never coached basketball. So once I started playing for him at Tennessee, I think the whole dad thing kind of went away. And I started dressing as coach or BP. Okay, so you're working for your, you're born and your dad's at the University of Iowa.

Then when did you take the southern Indiana job? How old were you? I was five years old. in 92 when he took the Southern Indiana job and he was there for nine years and then took up to Milwaukee for his first

Division I job and then took it down to Tennessee in 2005 for him in 2006. You're skipping ahead, dude. You don't know how we do this, guy? We do kind of the bit by bit thing. That's the whole thing.

Peace by piece, okay. Okay, so Southern Indiana is in, it's in Evansville, in it? Yep, Evansville, Indiana. Okay, which is hotbed for high school hoops and hotbed for college hoops. Obviously, the aces haven't been what they used to be. What do you remember kind of about your, that's like all your formative years, right, up until high school, your dad's coach at a school, and they're winning national championships, right? They're competing at a high level.

What do you remember about growing up in Evansville? Growing up in Evansville because, you know, obviously you had the purple aces in it, but southern Indiana, the streaming Eagles, they were the team that was talked about in town. And, you know, they used to sell out the Packer Arena, which held, you know, 2,500 people. So it was, it was the biggest show in town. And we always try and get Evansville to play us, but they never would. So growing up in that environment, it was really cool for me. You know, as a kid, Evansville was a great place to grow up.

I'm not sure if I'd go back there as an adult. But growing up, you know, had some great memories growing up, you know, hung. It was really good friends with Preston Mattingly, who's Don Mattingly's son. So, you know, I had some really cool memories with that family, but really spent all my time kind of in the gym with coach every day.

I'd go to work with him when I, you know, obviously when I wasn't at school, on the weekend, I'd spend all weekend at his office just running around the gym, you know, getting shot up, hanging out, and just bringing my friends out there.

So as a kid growing up, it was really cool to kind of have your dad as a head coach of, you know, one of the bigger teams in that town. You can spend a ton of time with the players, you know, the players kind of adopted me as like a little brother. So that was really special. And some of your best memories growing up, you know, as a coach's kid, revolve around, you know, those teams and those memories and obviously winning championships and being

one of the more successful division two programs in the country at that time. Okay, so what do you remember about the national championship year was 94? I'm going to say? 95. Yeah, 95. It's funny because one of the reasons I wore 44 was, I look, P. Maravich wore 44. Hank Gathers wore 44.

Jerry West wore 44. But also my dad's, like, best player was a guy named Kirk Taji at UW Milwaukee. He wore 44. And so I always liked the number. Do you remember who your favorite player was in the 95 team? Brian Hedner, kind of wore number three. That changed when I got to Colorado,

I wore number three for us. And that 95 team was a really special year before. They had made it to the national final game, and then lost in a second. And then the following year, we were playing Cal State Bakersfield in Springfield, and we're down like 23 at halftime. And one of the officials goes over to coach during the game,

it says, coach, you got to get a hold of that kid at the end of your bench. You won't stop crying. And I'm just in tears because we're getting our tails handed to us. And I'm afraid that we're about to lose another national championship. So, you know, at halftime, you know, coach kind of comes over to me in the locker. He's like, buddy, what's wrong? I was like, Dad, we're going to lose.

You know, we're going to lose again. And then, you know, second half we come out and, you know, Stan Gerard. And then, you know, some of the guys with the team just rally around and they find a way to come back and win the national championships. You remember those years, you know, you're in kindergarten to be able to remember those types of things. You know, it's really cool. In 2001, he got the EW Milwaukee job. Obviously, you were too young to remember how everything went down at Iowa.

I'm sure you became a little bit more aware at Southern Indiana. Like, what was your sense for your dad and why he wasn't a Division I head coach? I think I was still a little too young to kind of get involved with the specific in and out of it. I think, you know, as I've gotten older, you know, I've kind of begun to understand the landscape as to why he may have not gotten a job. I know he had interviewed at multiple places. I know he interviewed at Butler, didn't get that job. But then, obviously, you know, getting the job Milwaukee was kind of just,

it was kind of a long time coming because of the success that he had at. Indiana. So, you know, I was still a little too young to really know the ends and out of it. One of the things where we've been there for nine years, I was going into the eighth grade, so I was a kid off because I had, you know, really some lifelong friends that I'd grown up with. So having to leave Evansville was one of the hardest, it was probably the hardest move. I had a kid just spent my entire childhood there.

I had all my memories there. But then, you know, like, he kind of explained this is part of the profession, this is part of the job. You know, it was amazing that we were able to stay in San Evinville for all those years. You know, he at one point in time he had the opportunity, I think, to get the Middle Tennessee State job when we were at Southern Indiana, and he ended up turning it down because the AD asked him, you know, what are you going to tell your team when, you know, when you have to tell him that you're leaving, he just broke down.

He couldn't do it, so he decided to stay at Southern Indiana. And then I think Butler was next interviewed for it, didn't get it, and then interviewed Milwaukee and decided to take the job. and then, you know, we just had to trust what he told us, and we kind of packed things up, and on the Milwaukee we went. Okay, so now you're more aware, right? Now you're like high school age, and you're at UW Milwaukee. What was that like?

Yeah, it was, you know, it was getting up there trying to figure out, you know, what I was going to do for AAU basketball. I was trying to figure out where I was going to go to high school. and, you know, it was cool. I mean, I had met some really good friends, as you know. This guy I met at basketball camp when I first got up there, and, you know, he said, my dad and your dad are going to be really good friends, so they introduced him to David Gruber, who, you know, now coach and David are really good friends.

So, you know, being around it, I was kind of understanding more of what it kind of took to build a program and kind of watching it kind of evolved in front of me. really cool because I had more of an understanding as far as what what was some of the intricacies of what coach did every day. I obviously didn't understand it as well as I do now, but to kind of see him build programs, you know, watching him do it at front of Indiana as a kid, but then getting to see it at the high school level, it was pretty cool as being a coach's kid, being like, stepping back and like, whoa, you know, my dad's pretty good at this.

You know, he's able to do it in front of Indiana. They were, you know, a national contender every year. and now he's at Milwaukee, and we're in the NCAA tournament in year two, and Dylan Page, this is a layup against Notre Dame at the very end of the game to send us the second round.

And then two years later, he takes that team and goes to the Sweet 16 and beats Boston College and Alabama. So to see him kind of built really good teams on the Horizon League, like Butler and Illinois, Chicago, and have those great rivalries and win Horizon League championships

to kind of see it as I'd gotten older, it really gave me a new perspective on how good he was at his job. Okay, so what is it that he does? Like, he has, you know, like, I think so many of these guys, and I think most people who are good in their profession have it. It's just an energy about him that he can, even when he's not feeling great, you would never know because he can find a way to dial it up, right? Like if you, and I know you, like, part of our travels,

not just knowing each other, but you get to meet movie stars and rock stars and other athletes, and they have this well of energy that other people just don't have. And so even when they're tired, you're like, damn, how is he, you know? Other than that, though, what is the secret

that you've seen him, maybe not old enough to know at Southern Indiana, but at Milwaukee and then Tennessee and now Auburn that he's able to do to generate success? Yeah, I think I really started to learn it once I got to Auburn, because as a player at Tennessee, you don't see the day in and day out of a coach and all the things that go into it. But now that I work with him, he just cares so much. He cares, and it's not just like, it's more than just the coaching staff and his players.

He genuinely cares about the fan base. He genuinely cares about the university. He genuinely cares about other sports on campus. he genuinely cares about, you know, how we're perceived on and off campus. And I think all those things are really important in building a program and building a foundation and building a culture, the amount that he, you know, his level of care is kind of, but I think that's why he puts so much work into it. And I think that's why every community that he's been involved in,

and the school that he's coached just buy in and they kind of, you know, revolve around him, and they come out to support the team, even when the team's not that good, good. I mean, we were at Albert in our first couple years. We, you know, we weren't very good. You saw it. But we still, you know, had great home crowds. We still had great student turnout. It just matters to him, you know, to be able to touch all those pieces and to be able to make, you know, the university proud.

And, yeah, he puts so much effort into it because it matters to him. It really does matter. It's not just the on-the-court stuff. It's everything off the court that's needed to kind of build a, you know, to build a program that wasn't in the greatest spot. So I think that's the biggest thing is just, you know, how much it matters to him personally and all the people that, you know,

the athletic directors that took the chance on him, like he feels, you know, he's in debt to them and he has to reward them. So he works, you know, he says, he always says he's not the most talented guy in the world, but he's going to work harder than everyone else. And he's kind of had that mindset, you know, every single day.

And you talk about his energy. You know, Coach Flanagan, One of our assistant coaches went out recruiting with him last week after we just got back from the final four. And he's like, man, I don't know how he does it. You know, we're going for three straight days recruiting. And he's just high level, high energy the entire time. And it's just, it's not an act. That's just who he is.

And he's able to kind of do that everywhere he goes. And it's kind of just translated into being able to turn these programs around and, you know, winning environment. Okay. So you get to Tennessee. You guys take Milwaukee to the Sweet 16. and you go to Tennessee, you're coming up, I think, on your senior year in high school. Yep.

What do you remember about the move to Tennessee? I wasn't leaving Milwaukee. I was like, I want to stay and play my final year of high school ball, period, so I'm not going, you know, without you. And I was like, all right, well, that ends that conversation because I wasn't going to stop him from, you know, making the biggest move and transition of his coaching career to go from Milwaukee to Tennessee.

So, you know, just like when we moved from Evansville to Milwaukee, had a ton of really good friends that I didn't want to break ties with. And then moving down to a new place, you know, for your senior season, it's tough because, you know, you obviously put a ton of time in, you know, with your teammates over three years in high school. So it was a tough move. But obviously, it made sense because you're in the SEC. Tennessee's a good program with some tradition,

an incredible fan base, you know, all the different things that it takes to be successful. So we go down there, you know, find new friends and figure out what I'm doing with. So kind of watch, you know, what there was at Tennessee. Buzz Peterson left a really good team. You had C.J. Watson. You had Chris Loth and Juan Smith, Major Wingate, Dame Bradshaw. You had some really good pieces.

And what we did just kind of fit that team perfectly. You know, it looked very similar to some of the teams we've had the last couple of years. Undersized guys that shoot the crap out of the ball and want to play fast. That first year, you know, we go 22 and, I think, nine, get a two-seat in the NCAA tournament, win the FCC East, and, you know, had success right away. And then from there, it was just a snowball effect. Every single year we go to the Sweet 16, the next year I come into the freshman. I'm a red shirt, and then just to kind of see it over time, overtime build,

and spending five years there as a player, right starting my first, sure we'll get into the playing part of it, but, you know, to kind of see what, obviously what he was able to accomplish there, being a national contender, being a contender in the FCC every year with, you know, Kentucky and Florida and Vanderbilt

and, you know, some of the Mississippi State, LSU to kind of do it against the elite was, you know. Okay, so you play your senior year, was there ever a thought you weren't going to play for your dad? Yeah, there was. I mean, I was getting some low major interest, some Ivy League interest, a lot of Division II interests, you know. It was Allstate and Tennessee average 25 points a game in high school.

So obviously I had some options out there, but at the end of the day, I thought it was, you know, obviously I'm one of those guys that's always got a chip on his shoulder and always trying to prove something. And everyone always told me there's no way you'll ever play at Tennessee. There's no way. So I took that as a challenge. And after winning a lot of, you know, different options, I decided I wanted to go to Tennessee, walk on,

and try and find a way to play. So, yeah, there was definitely some thought early. But, you know, you know me. I'm always up for a challenge. So once everyone told me there's, you know, no way you'd play at this level, that kind of made me want to do it even more. Okay, so you arrive at 2007.

It's your dad's second year. right? Yep. And I just can't imagine it's hard enough to be a walk on and then to be the coach's kid and he's trying to turn around and you're trying to earn respect or you're also trying to figure out college because even though you spent a year in a college town, it's completely different once you're in the school. What was that process like?

And how did the guys, in all honesty, how did they treat you? Yeah, it was, you know, we signed out a ridiculous class, 10 classes, Wayne Chisholm, Duke Cruz, Ramar Smith, Marcus Johnson, and Josh Tab. So it was a nationally highly rated class. And we all kind of came in together because I kind of helped recruit those guys because when they'd be on their visits, I was there. So we did all kind of come in at the same time as a group. And they treated me like I'd been recruited the same way they did.

You know, I'd been around the program the year before when I was in high school. so all those guys that were returners that following year. Obviously, all knew me, but, you know, they just treated me like anyone else because, you know, quite frankly, coach treated me worse than any of them. So they knew I wasn't getting any preferential treatment. So it was just like I was, you know, one of the guys out there and, you know, treated me, you know, just like any other incoming freshmen. But also with the whole walk-on tag, you know, they gave me a little, you know, a little extra crap,

like, you know, like most walk-ons do you have to do some of the extra stuff that you never want to do. but kind of have to do as a walk-on. So there was never anything. It wasn't difficult coming into a freshman walk-on, you know, and being the coaches. They kind of, my team did a really good job, kind of seeing past all that, not having it ever be an issue. Yeah, that was the year that you guys went like 31 and 5, right? No, the next year we went 31 and 5.

That year we went like 24 and, I want to 12 or something. Once the Sweet 16 lost to Greg Oden, Mike Conley, the sweet 16. We were up 19 at half, I think, and then they shot like 34 free throws in the second half and kind of came back and ended up one of the game. Okay, I wouldn't be doing my job as much as, and you and I have, I don't know if you know this,

we've never talked about not just the barbecue, but like people don't remember how things went down. Here's my recollection of kind of what happened with everything, right? Not necessarily the, it's that, Okay, so what year did we go to, it was Israel? Israel was my side. It was 2010. So 2009, B.P calls me and he's like, hey, I'm going to Israel in a year. I'm going to coach the Maccabi team. I want you to be my assistant when she come with me. And I was like, done, in. Okay. And I didn't know, like, so you have to kind of commit a year in advance. And we had, I'm going to say, didn't we have a like a tri- out like weekend in Knoxville? Yeah, I think that... Okay, okay.

So, so, so, and this is, this is my recollection of it. So the practice facility was sick and I had never, uh, I hadn't been to Knoxville since my senior year in high school, uh, I played in some all-star game at the arena. And, uh, we went out that night, like, that's the only time I'd ever been in Knoxville. So, uh, we stay at your dad's new house, which he was just moving into, it was just finished off or whatever, but the basement, I stayed in the basement and, you He had like a poker room that was with like vented parts of the ceiling so you could smoke in the poker room or whatever. And we had a couple days of workouts.

And I was like, this motherfucker can coach. Like I had never been. I never liked like the style of flex so it cutters, whatever offense. But I watched and I was like, this fucking dude can coach. And we had a great time. And then, I don't know if you remember, my flight was like earlier than everybody else's had to get back. And we were on a boat. He got a free boat every year.

Right. Yeah, he had a boat every year as part of his deal. He did, like, speaking engagements for, for Sea Ray, and they kind of let him use a boat. Had a couple boats out there, and I think someone had to come get you on a jet ski to take you back so you can get to the airport. Correct, correct. I literally had like a bag, he was like, just throw on the boat. We'll take you to the airport. I was like, how are you going to do it?

Don't worry about. We'll figure it out, right? So we got a bunch of guys, and we're throwing back some beers, and guys are water skiing and jet skiing, and we're tying up the boat. then I'm like shit I gotta go get the airport I got to go get the airport some guy pulls up in a jet ski like I'll take him over there and like it was literally it was like the most country shit everywhere I grab my bag

I hop in the back of a jet ski with like you know no shirt on and flip flops takes me over to like you know like a transam hopping the transam in some random dude No idea I was on a jet ski either Yes and you know they pass me off to guy to guy And I get dropped out in the airport I'm like later So somewhere in the, I don't remember what month of the year that was. I'm going to say that felt like August.

So my wife at the time had just gotten pregnant. If I find the guy, let me know. Anyway, so I didn't, like, I didn't think anything of going to Israel. The next summer, so we had Hayes, your dude Hayes in March. And I was like, she'll be fine. Like, I'm going to Israel's a couple of months. So, like, no big deal. And then right as it came time to booking time,

my wife was like, no way you're going to Israel while I have three kids, three and under. Like, that's just not happening. Not happening. So I came and helped with the workouts at George Washington, right? And again, I was like, this fucking dude can coach. And he let me do so much. It was awesome. He's like, you don't like that?

Here, change it, do it. And then while you guys were gone, that's when Aaron Kraft decommitted, right? Wasn't it while you were in Israel? He was gone for like the whole month of July and missed that recruiting period. Is that accurate? Yeah. He was gone that entire month. And yeah, I think I think that's when it all happened.

There's a couple things going on back home with recruiting. And I just remember after we won the gold medal in overtime, you know, BP was basically came in, in the locker room, gave us one of the most memorable speeches that we'll ever hear that we can talk about in private one day, and then basically just bolted out and went straight to the airport, jumped on a plane, and flew back to the United States to try and, you know, fix some of the situations that were going on and recruiting because he had been gone that entire month. Wait, why can we talk about the, what is because he cursed or because he was talking about

what it means to be a Jew or what was it? No. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending. Opinions are flying. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters, to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action, with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

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So I'd played a year, college basketball, sat out a year. And, God, what's, why am I forgetting what? Brown's our coach. And we beat a team in the pool play by 60. And then we played in the semifinals and shit we got beat. Yeah. And, you know, it was one of those deals. We were playing too many guys.

And I don't think he really, Herb really understood what he had or how to, you know, I just remember, like, and then we won the silver medal against the Israeli team who also got upset. But the Americans and the Israelis are supposed to play in the championship game. and you're supposed supposedly have the best players. The problem is that, you know, if you're really, really good and you're Jewish, you know, you're thinking about either playing the NBA, you're already playing in Israel, and you've been there 10 months and you want to come home.

It's like a little bit harsh. So you're playing with kids, sometimes against men, whatever. And there's the pressure of it. You don't get any calls. So we played France in the championship game. We stopped Israel. They had, I felt like they played too young a team. And we were really playing good well.

And we were up like 20 and it got tight. I think we won by six at the end. And so I didn't, you know, and I also like BP, I got on a plane that night because I had to come back and work. And I've been, you know, you're gone like a month and I loved it. But my post-game speech was more I went through every guy

because I didn't play every guy in the championship game. I felt a little bad about it. Yeah. But I would have felt a lot worse that we'd lost. You guys won on like a last second shot, didn't you? Well, we were down AP. Like, it gave us four just ridiculous play calls. A couple back doors and a couple.

a couple play calls for shots, and we ended up tying it. I think Seth Halvin made a layup with like five seconds left to tie it up, and then we go to overtime. We just spank him in overtime and end up winning the gold medal. And it was, at the point when we were down eight, it was not looking good. And for us to be able to come back, and, you know, BP always makes a joke when you had Isaac, Joseph, and Jacob as the three referees, your chances of winning in Israel weren't looking very good. And, you know, we're getting calls the entire game. We're just getting screwed the entire time.

And just kind of found a way to hang in there. And then over time, we kind of got hot. They just couldn't take it away from us. And, you know, we ended up winning and really celebrating. And, you know, we all went out that night and saw all these really players at there, like, the club they always go to and tell us even. It was a lot of fun. Yeah.

So all this stuff is going down in recruiting. you're in Israel. Like, did you have any idea? Did any of this? Did you guys know any of this stuff was going down? Like you personally, as a member of Tennessee's basketball team? No, not at all, really. I mean, I just knew that BP, something had gone wrong with, you know, his verbal commitments.

I think Josh Selby, I don't know what the Kansas was the other one. So something had kind of gone straight with both those. I guess Kansas had gotten involved and kind of, you know, was messed up a little bit. So I know he had to get back to kind of get in front of both those guys to kind of see what was going on, because like you said, he was going that entire month. But as a member of the team, like, you know, mine's like when kids come in on visits,

like we, you know, didn't have, didn't know a ton of, we didn't follow recruiting as much. It wasn't as, like, all over social media, because social media wasn't, like, Twitter just started back then. So it wasn't like as all over the place as it is now and as easy to find. We just, you know, when coaches told us we had to host, you know, we hosted, but besides that,

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Your dream is waiting for you. Danpatrick.com, Foxportsradio.com. Some equipment described is optional. So what was it like to, like there's all this different part? One, you're part of the team and he's in limbo, your last year in Tennessee. But two, you're also his son, right? And like, look, again, those of us who know him know that the BP is not what I think some people will always negatively perceive him to be, what was that like, what was that experience like for you?

At the end or just in general? In general. In general, you know, just leading up to it, I mean, you obviously, you know, being a coach's kid as well, like you get this probably all the time. You know, people always, you know, doubted why you played. And I always tell people, you know, I probably should have been playing a year earlier. But coach, you know, put other guys ahead of me just because, you know, he didn't want people to think that he was giving me any preferential treatment.

And we had had some knockdowns of fights over it, you know, in practice, just going back and forth. And obviously, when I wasn't playing, like, there was a little bit of a strain in our relationship because I was a stubborn kid. And he was just, you know, a father and a coach trying to do what was best for me and what was best for the team. So he was in an incredibly difficult situation. But then, obviously, in my junior year,

some things happened I was able to kind of get into the rotation and you know we go out there and have a great year we beat number one Kansas at home my second game in the rotation and then we go on to have a pretty good FCC season we go to an elite eight

we're one point away from the final four you know to play Butler in the final four and we lose by one in Michigan State Draymond Green and Corey Lucius and those guys and then the next year all the stuff happens with the NCOE AA and with the barbecue and it's all kind of just like a cloud hanging over our head.

So to play for him that year, it was tough. You know, there was just, there was a lot of outside noise and, you know, not really knowing what was going to happen. And then he was suspended for eight games, you know, the wear and tear that kind of took on him was, it was tough, you know, obviously as a player, but then as his son was incredibly difficult because obviously you know how much, how much time and how much effort he put into his job and to kind of see it falling apart there at the end was, it was brutal, to be honest, it was brutal, and then, you know, we go to the Insoil tournament and get blown out by

Michigan. The end was difficult of seeing him in that stage. You know, he never brought it to work, though. He was always, you know, composed and positive, and he was himself when he was around us and around the coaches and around the team, but just outside of that, I could kind of see, you know, what it was doing to him and yeah yeah like the one word for it was it was brutal

having to go through that okay so did you guys did you know do you know he's going to get fired no I didn't really know didn't know until we were on the bus heading to Charlotte for the game and they had like put out

a quote from the AD you know basically like that he was unsure of his you know his future and that's when it first clicked me like, oh shit, this is not going to end well, you know, unless we just, you know, went to the Final Four or something because winning does, you know, miraculous things. But that obviously didn't happen.

So I really didn't, I really didn't know he was getting fired until we were kind of heading to the game to play Michigan. I really had no idea. Okay, so, like, that's got to just be weird for you, considering your Tennessee alum. You play basketball at Tennessee. I'm sure you love most of your time there. On the other hand, like, they fired your dad. Yeah.

And he, you know, and, you know, it's not that he didn't make mistakes, but he did own the, I always, I just always felt like it was double jeopardy. Like, all right, you spend it to make games. Like, that's the penalty. Like, spend him to make games, you let him coach season, then you fire him. When you already spend him, like, what was the whole point of the thing? How does it, how does it sit with you today? Forget about him. How does it sit with you today as a Tennessee alone?

Yeah, I mean, it's obviously difficult. But at the same time, you've got to realize that the people that made those decisions aren't there anymore. They have, you know, Phil Palmer is a really good friend of our families. You know, he's the athletic director there and obviously, like, you know, have nothing but love for him and his family and, you know, tons of respect for Coach Barnes. But I'd be lying if I said it didn't, you know, it still didn't sting a little bit, you know, just thinking back on it. But then you got to, like I said, you've got to try and put it in perspective and realize that a lot of the people that, you know, did make those decisions, you know, aren't there.

But at the same time, like, if they hadn't made those decisions, you know, we may not have ended up at Auburn and we went to a final four this year. So, I mean, at the end of the day, like, it's really all worked out. It's all worked out well for them. You know, they're in a great place with, you know, for a while, they weren't in a great place. But I think they found their guy in Coach Barnes and, you know, he obviously was co-champ. the SEC last year, and then, you know, made it to a sweet 16 this year. So they're in a good spot, and I think we're in a great spot being at Auburn. And, you know, looking back on it, you know, if you told me back then, you'd end up, you know,

in 2019 at Auburn, and you'd just come up in Final Four, you know, obviously you would have taken it instantly having a deal with three years where we weren't in coaching. I feel like it's all worked out. Well, you know, there was definitely some bitterness there. as a, you know, the Tennessee fan base was always a huge, you know, very supportive of coach and what he was all about. And, you know, that never changed. It's all kind of worked out for the better, and I think we're, you know, all in a better place because of it.

Do you have any of your Tennessee gear? I do. I do. I do. I still have my jerseys. Still haven't got my Letterman's jacket, though. So if anyone at Tennessee here's this, I've been waiting on a Letterman's jacket for like five or six years. years now and it's never gotten shit to me. So if we get a remedy that situation, yeah,

I wouldn't mind having that one day for my kids to see. Yeah. No, listen, I had mine, um, I'd never got one in high school. I was, I was cheesy in high school and I had one in college and they were kind of cool. I had my Notre Dame one still, which I haven't really rocked obviously a little, still a little awkward, um, but uh, I have, I had an Oklahoma state one that was stolen and like it was, it was like the worst game ever. We played oh you on the road. We'd beaten them my sophomore year, my junior, and we were just, just terrible. I was personally awful. And I got my Letterman jacket stolen from the locker room during the game. I did get one a couple of...

Yes, I did get one, and I do have it, so I feel you on that. Okay, what did you do? When BP went to TV, what did you do? I did medical sales. I went and worked for Stryker in Tennessee. Ron Barzac and Darren Way, were my bosses. and kind of, you know, it was something I'd kind of worked on when I was still at Tennessee because, you know, I had a chance to go play professionally overseas, but also at the same time I had to kind of be realistic that I wasn't going to be the most prolific star overseas, and it probably wouldn't have, you know, turned into much for me. So I had to kind of make a run-up decision as far as what I was going to do.

Coach had just gotten fired, so I was like, you know, trying to figure out what my next step was, and I kind of wanted to get into something right away to kind of, buy my time and to have myself, you know, stay busy doing something. And I had kind of built a relationship with Ron and Darren while I was a senior at Tennessee and they had basically told me,

like, whenever you finish, you know, this job could open up, so you've got to be ready. And, you know, once we finished up in the tournament, I was in grad school a couple weeks later, Ron called me, hey, the position's open. It's yours if you want it, but it's going to fill quickly. So drop out of grad school

and jumped right into medical sales and did that for three and a half years covering. What were you selling? What, what surgery centers in East Tennessee and Southwest Virginia? What medical devices? I was selling saws and drill different pieces of equipment that did like total joint

surgery, so total knees, total hips, turnicates, turniquette, types of different things. What was the nast, gnarliest surgery that you had to sit down on? Man, I had to do some, we had a certain product that like stopped bleeding so I had to do some like OBGYN procedures and the amount of respect I have for women now having to go through some of that stuff is it's incredible it was I don't know if you'd call it

gnarly but it was not it was not fun but it was quite the experience so so so so but you make good coin right you're taking doctors out to eat right the hours are a little trying, whatever, but things can be rougher for a recent college graduate. Yeah, it was a two. Okay, so I always thought that your dad, and look, I left ESPN right before he joined ESPN. And your dad's one of those guys that should be, it should have been a superstar, right? It should have been Al McGuire. Yeah.

I don't ever think he was able to be comfortable enough. like I you know what I mean it's like like Seth Greenberg was is very good and he was always good to your dad and like but I for whatever reason like the two Jews I don't know why it didn't it just I never felt like they found the right guys with him to make it sing is that fair yeah I guess I think part of that is that but I think the other part of it is I think once you start doing TV I think he started itching to get back into it even more just because he got around it again you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah No, listen, if you do, I tell you that, like, when Urban Meyer did the games, when he was at ESPN, I told everybody like, he's going to coach again. Like, if you do the game, if you do the studio, it's kind of, it's, it's, I, I like it because you feel like you can watch every game, but it's not the same. Whereas you do a game and you really prep for it. You watch tape. You talk to the coaches. You're, you know, you sit there and watch film with them.

You watch practice. You're like, dude, I miss it. I miss, you even miss the losing as much as miss the winning. I know exactly. of what he was doing. Like, he's sitting there covering games and he's at practice. He's writing shit down like, oh, this will be good for what we do. You know, like he's sitting there taking notes for if he ever got back into coaching,

what would work, what wouldn't work. And I think he learned so much in those, you know, those couple of years when he was working with ESPN, watching film, watching other teams. Because when you're in it and your coach, you do so, you spend so much time on your team that you don't, unless you really make a concert effort to get out there during the summer and go sit down with other teams, which we do a pretty good job of. You don't get a ton of time to kind of add to it because you're so busy doing a million different things.

He had those three years to kind of refine his craft and make what he did better. And like you said, I think being around practices, being around the kids, the ins and out, the intricacies of what you do every day. I think it made him miss it even more. So I think getting back into TV was, I mean, a major reason of why he got back in the coaching. Okay. So did he call you first and say he was taking the Auburn? How'd the Auburn thing go down in terms of your knowledge of it?

I'm heading down. It was me, BP, and then my buddy Jordan Howell, who played with me at Tennessee. We were actually driving down to Atlanta. I think coach had something going on, Atlanta, and then we just wanted to go down there to watch the SEP tournament. We were going down to support Tennessee. That's from Auburn, Alabama, originally. His mom still lives there.

His brother played at Auburn. and Jordan was recruited by Georgia, Auburn, Alabama, and Tennessee. I ended up going to Tennessee. So Jordan was around in Auburn when, you know, you had Chris Porter and the Cliff Ellis days. So he was around when Auburn was last really good. So we're in the car and, you know, you obviously hear the rumors circulate that Tony Barbie, you know, is going to get fired at the end of the year. And BP's in the car and just fly out says it Jordan.

He says, you know, Jordan, can Auburn win in. basketball. Honestly, D.P., I was there in the early 90s when it was really good, and I feel like if you were there, yeah, they can win again. And that's kind of really how it all started, at least how I remember it getting started. And then over the next couple days, you know, things really started to pick up as far as discussions between, you know, that's kind of where it all got started, and then they came up and sat back, drank a few beers, talked about it, and she wanted to make sure that, you know, before you did anything that, that, I think my siblings were. excited about getting back into coaching than he actually was.

He was excited, but my sister is my little brother. Okay, so did he immediately go like, hey, you're coming with me? I mean, what was the conversation like when he took the job as far as you working for him? So I was kind of in a transition period with my job. I was about to kind of get interviewed to be in my own territory, you know, if I had earned one. So I was kind of, you know, looking to relocate at that time anyway. And then the opportunity came about, and I was kind of itching to get back into it anyway. I was doing a Saturday morning radio show in Knoxville. So I was, you know, doing, just kind of getting back

involved in the sports thing. And, you know, I was 26 at the time, so I was still young enough to kind of switch professions and still be able to get back into medical sales if I really wanted to. So we talked about it, and he was like, you know, I was like, you know, what would you about us kind of doing this thing together. He said, you know, obviously, I'd love for you to be there with me. I trust you. You know, you're going to be good at this. If you do it, you know, you just got to understand that you get. You're going to work for everything you get. Like, I'm not just going to hand you an assistant coaching position, you know, just because you're my son and we get down to Auburn. So, played for him, you know, we talked about doing it together, building it together,

you know, knowing that it was going to take. And, you know, you know, you know this with your dad and with your brother, you know, some of your most important accomplishments in life, you know, when you did it do them with your family, they make them that much more special. I kind of go down there and do it together. I got a quick reality check very quickly when I got down there, and my role was the assistant strength coach, and I was making not a lot of money. How much you're making your first year?

Probably 50, 50 or 60 maybe. So it took a pretty big pay cut from doing medical sales to go down there and kind of start working at Auburn. So I've worked as an assistant strength coach for a year. I did operations for two years. And then now I'm in my second year as a full-time assistant coach. And you kind of become like his right-hand guy, right? Like you do the defense, don't you?

Yeah. I mean, I had a big part of kind of building our defense last year and just a ton of like in-game adjustments, just trying to help him manage the game. the coolest part about working for him, and this goes for anyone on our staff, is he is open to any and all suggestions, just like when you were coaching us

when we were getting in the Maccobby games. Like, if you had something that you wanted to run with, like, he will let you do it. So last year, when we were kind of going through everything and we were down to, you know, three guys in the staff, you know, or three to five guys in the staff, it really made a lot of us have to step up

and, you know, have bigger roles in what we were doing. So I took over the defense, You know, Chad Pruitt and Mike Burgo Master helped out with the offense. You know, and Harris just kind of oversaw everything. He was, you know, you just kind of helped out in every single area. So I was kind of able to have more of a voice defensively last year on this team, and it's kind of carried over into this year with Coach Flanagan. So, yeah, just, you know, I feel like, you know, we have a really good dialogue.

You know, I'm able to say things to him that no one else in the saddle. I think that's good for our staff to be able to bounce things off and be. because I'll be able to know how coach will react to certain things. And, you know, he lets me get away with a little bit more just because we have a little bit of a tighter relationship. But it's very healthy. It's, you know, obviously been a ton of fun to kind of do what we were able to do this year. But it is interesting how you're able to do what you're able to do. Like, you know, Mustafa Heron transfers.

Yep. You know, the, you know, the Chuck person thing, obviously, is still kind of looming, right? Harris Adler decides to get out of basketball and go work back in Philly. And, you know, that was, you know, a personal decision that's been written about, like, Harris is an awesome dude. Yep. And so, like, if you're outside the program, you're like, man, this could be really bad. How did it come together to be the opposite and be really good? I just think the culture that we've built with our kids is just so strong right now.

You know, we have so many high character. Even when something really bad happens, they're able to kind of bind together and fight through it. You look at what happened last year with, you know, everything with during the season. Staff members, you know, we end up coming together. That team wins an SEC championship and goes to the tournament for the first time in 2003. And this year, you know, you got Mustafa Heron transfers. You have the Sean Murray transfers. You have Davian Mitchell transferring.

You lose three of your top, you know, eight or nine guys. and then we just bring in new players, guys that had lesser roles last year had to step up, and we end up coming together, winning 12 or 13 straight at the end of the year, and then going to a final four. And then on top of that, we beat North Carolina, and one of our best – actually, our best player, Tatters is ACL in the game, and then we had to go play Kentucky who had just beaten us by 30 back in February, and those guys come together and win.

So I think it's just – it's a huge testament to the culture that BP's – built. It's a resilient locker room. It's a resilient group of kids. And, you know, it's such a family atmosphere that when something like, you know, what's happened over a couple different instances has happened, it kind of brings our guys closer together

and we kind of play for each other. Okay, so how do you, what is the secret to the culture? How do you build it? What is that you guys have team building things? Do you have things that you have to do every day? Is there living arrangement things? Like, what's different about Auburn from every other school that allows you guys to have a better

culture than some of the most other schools in your opinion i think it's the yeah i think it's the criticize of because the shot that we take but the reason that they're able to take those shots because bp lets them and in return that makes them want to do you know do everything for him in return you know if you're allowed to play with tremendous freedom offensively um the guys are going to you know they're going to guard for you they're going to rebound for you they're going to go to class for you they're going to do community search they're going to do things that you know other players may not do because they know if their coach trust them. So I think the fact

that coach has tremendous trust in his players and gives them tremendous freedom, you know, makes them kind of fight for him. And then on top of that, just having good kids in that locker room, they've all kind of binded together as a really, you know, as a good group of friends, obviously winning helps a lot of those things.

But I think the culture that was built, you know, on that trust and on that freedom has really made a healthy environment. Okay, so you mentioned like all the things that you guys had going at the end, right, when Chuma ends up tearing his ACL, right? But you also have, you know, Wiley struggles to practice all the time, right, because of his body. And, you know, he's had some things.

And, you know, it's kind of a, you know, you guys always play a difficult schedule. The SEC has gotten really, really, really good. That's what happens when you hire really good coaches throughout the league. They get very good, you know, you get good players and teams get super invested in it. was there a moment this year where you felt like, because you did, like one time you played Kentucky, you got run out of the building, right? So was there a moment where you're like,

okay, this is different? Yeah, I mean, at that point we were seven and seven, like 18 and eight, but we always knew that with this team's ability to shoot the ball and just, like we call, I don't know if it's even a word, Doug, but we called it our spurred ability was better than anyone in the country.

We could run off. a 12 or 13 point run on people in a matter of second. So our ability to do that still gave us a chance to be dangerous. Like you said, Austin was injured in and out during the year. You know, Chuma had gone through a slump early in the season. You know, still guys were still trying to figure out their roles because we had 10 or 11 guys that were all capable of starting. So I think the biggest thing is once we started winning at the end of the year

and started finding ways to win, guys started buying into their roles a little, more willingly. And I think it made everything click. And then on top of that, you know, everyone was shooting the ball at a pretty high level. So when you're able to make shots, you know, you're able to fly around defensively make plays, it just makes, you know, it makes winning a lot easier. And it just, everything kind of jell at the right moment. Because I think the biggest thing was the kids all kind of came together and said,

listen, we could either, you know, go to a final four or we could be in the first four and lose or miss the tournament. And I think they as a unit kind of got together and made it. a conscious decision to accept their roles, do what needed to be done to win, and I think that made the difference in it. Take me to the Final Four. You're up four.

You're up four. And they have the basketball. Now, Kyle Guy hit a tough shot. I was thinking in my head, maybe you start fouling now, right? And again, and this is, it sounds like hindsight on a podcast, but I did think maybe,

and I didn't even realize, how many fouls you had to give. But I almost feel like when you're up for, the only way you lose is if there has to be a three in order to beat you end up being, essentially two threes, one with three made free throws. You're up for what do you remember thinking?

Yeah, I mean, like you said, hindsight to everything. You can sit here and think about it a million times. But our primary thing was, you know, our 56% free throw at the line making free throws, you know, you know, quite frankly, like, you know, Anthony made those free throws last year. You hadn't shot them very well this year, so we were hoping he'd make the free throws first. Secondly, we only had one timeout at the time.

So we didn't want to call it and burn our last timeout to set up our defense because we, you know, thought we had been playing pretty good defense up to that point. And we didn't want to tell them live ball as we were shooting free throws, you know, in the middle of the game, too foul because we didn't want to get confused and kind of lost, just from what I remember. And then, like you said, like, that's probably a 10 or 15% made shot that he shot in that corner.

You know, Samir had a good contest on it. He's twisting and turning out of bounds. So, I mean, you know, you can look back and say we should have fouled. We only had four foul at the time. So we could have definitely milked some time off the clock. But, you know, we made him shoot a tough contested shot falling out of bounds of a corner. You know, as a coach, you know, you got to live with that.

that's, you know, it's a lower percentage shot than him going to the line and making two free throws, cutting it to two. And then, you know, you looked at the end of the New Mexico State game, you know, when we basically kicked the ball over the jail in the last 60 seconds of the game. Like, that could have happened again. So we felt pretty good about our defense and how we were guarding them at the time. So up for, you know, we wanted to make them shoot a tough contested shot, and they did. And, you know, Kyle got a hell of a play. He had given a lot of credit. Okay, so Jared gets the ball.

And look, he's a very good free throw shooter. And I'm trying to think, did he make free throws or a jump shot to win the state championship? I think it was his junior year. I remember covering you guys, like his freshman year and you were like, this kid's a stud. Yeah, I just felt like, like, free throws. Yeah, okay. So, like, here's the guy. And granted, it's a little bit bigger stage.

By the way, what's it like with all this stuff? It's so much different. You know, you were the one guy that would stand up and get kind of on the stage. But how difficult is it the coaching and how different to relay things to your team when you're down, you know, a whole three yard a yard below the level of the playing surface as opposed to BP. Like in terms of communication and what's the difference they're like as opposed to at other times in the year? Unless you step on the floor, they can't hear a word you're saying. So you basically just have a front row seat to a final four game if you're an assistant coach. Now, if you find some opportunity to jump out there during free throws to kind of communicate things you can.

But in live ball, there's no communication with any of the assistance. So anything that we had, we had to relate to coach to kind of relate to our guys and get the message out there to them on the floor. Because when you're that far back and that open of the space, there was really no communicating with the guys unless it was during timeouts or during deadball. So he misses, and obviously you guys start to kind of process of fouling. Did you see, your dad has said he didn't see the double dribble. Did you see the double dribble?

Yeah, I saw it pick off his foot. I wasn't sure if Bryce had touched it or not. No, Bryce was trying to foul him. I did see him pick up and put it back down, and I did scream it out. But, you know, I said it in an interview. It's a bang, bang play. You know, it's hard to kind of see that at that moment. I've been looking to see if Bryce was fouling him and just missed it.

But definitely from my angle, I saw, I saw Jerome pick up the ball and put it back down, you know, and thinking that it was a double dribble to time. But, you know, it's just, it happens so fast that, you know, it could have been pretty easy to miss. It is one of those things. And again, this is all hindsight. It is one of those things when the other team thinks you're, as soon as you're going to foul. Like, he ended up taking, you know, a half-court heave, right? Yep.

You almost feel like, man, could you design a call that signifies you act like you're going to foul, but you don't actually foul, which will entice them to take a terrible shot, right? Is that something you think maybe in the future teams could practice and put in? You could, and you just have to have incredible trust in your kids to not do it. And then I also hope that the referee doesn't, you know, kind of blow the call a little bit early, thinking that you weren't trying to foul. So that's a tough one. But we had told Bryce, you know, we had told Bryce the foul.

Now when Jerome had kicked the ball and he had picked it back up, would it have been great if Bryce didn't foul him at all and made him take a tough shot out of that? Yeah, but Bryce was just following instructions from his coaches and we told him the foul, so he fouled. And then they got the side out of bounce play. So they're running the side out of bounce play. You've poured over all the different tape, right?

You've done watching the tape and watching Synergy. did you know what was coming? Yep. Yeah, we talked about outside of that breakfast spot the other morning. We told, you know, we told our end on defender, do not let them pass the ball to the corner. But the one thing that I didn't see live ball and then I saw as I looked back at it,

he was able to take like five steps back. So it really didn't matter if you had stolen on the ball. His angle to that pass in the corner, unless our guy was standing out of bounds, which would have been a violation, there was no way to defend that past the corner because of how big the playing surface was. So he was able to get a very clean pass to the corner because he backed up, made a really smart play. I'm sure Coach Bennett told him to do this back up.

And we talked about switching everything. So in hindsight with that little of time remaining, again, knowing now that, like, again, final four floor and for, you know, like, guys listen to this podcast, no, it's your basketball guys. So, like, if you're lined up in a regular game, there's no space. They can tell you to back up, but as long as you don't cross over the line. We've seen games at Kansas like this. We're just, there's no space. There's nowhere to see. And like Austin Wiley's a big dude, that's a really hard pass.

And you want to put a good, good passer there. So oftentimes they're not a big guy. But because the final four playing surface is so large, he can back way up and he has a clear. So again, in hindsight now for a final four, when you have that type of space, do you, do you play in front of them and then play Wiley, you know, guarding the, rim guarding over the back and make him throw the ball over the top is that like if you could do it all over again how would you do it yeah in hindsight knowing what we know now you'd probably put a guard on the ball just in case he like throws it to someone and get the hand back for a shot because i was kind

concerned with awesome ball that they could have gotten a shot for jerome um and as a five man he may not have recognized to do that um and you know just hindsight i would have you know put put just matched up normally put off at the rim because that the lob was actually open um i wish that she would have thrown it, so we could have gone to overtime. But he didn't throw it, and then Kyle Guy, you know, we were supposed to switch that stream, but Samir, you know, we gave him the ability to stay with him, and Samir stays with him. And obviously, you know, everyone knows what happens in the corner. But, you know, if you could do it all over again, obviously you would match up a little differently,

knowing that you can't really deflect that corner pass. Here's a tough question to answer. Let's say he missed the third free throw, okay, and gave you guys new life. I'm just wondering what that huddle was like when you called timeout before the third free throw because I've talked to Bill about this and Kansas talked about it

back at the time when they came back and tied the game to beat Memphis in the national championship game they walked over to the bench and they were like it's over because you have the game won and then all of a sudden now you're going to overtime

they were like it's over obviously that wasn't even the case with Virginia in the championship game as as in spite of the fact that kind of some of a sort of similar situation right they're up three um tex tech actually had the lead in overtime and kind of had a little bit of control there but i'm just wondering if you thought that it was so devastating to be that because i'm sitting you know 13 14 rows back and i thought it was over like i'm like where's the where's the where's the celebration like oh because the foul is the opposite side i can't i can't imagine trying to figure out get your balance and then go and

play overtime. What do you think you guys would have been like in overtime? I mean, I think we'd have been pretty good. You know, we had a similar situation in the Kentucky game when, you know, Bryce didn't give the ball to his point guard and then Horace gerbils it down

and, you know, Horace gets to shoot the shot to try and win the game. So obviously, I'm a little upset that we could have won the game in regulation. But they, you know, they gathered, they got together and, you know, they still found a way to win that game in overtime by by seven or eight points.

So I feel like, you know, even when they throw over to the bench after, you know, his second free throw and we were drawing up a play just in case he did make it, they're pretty locked in, pretty engaged as far as, you know, if you guys make it, you know, we'll find a way to get a clean look. And, I mean, if we've gone to overtime, you know, they had been through so much this year that I think, you know, we've got to bounce back well and, you know, try and found a way to win the game. What are those moments like in the locker room before the media comes in when you're

sitting there and you realize how close, you know, you had, you felt like you had the game won and instead you're going home. What's, what's that feeling like? Yeah, I mean, obviously, you just feel for the kids because they're all just devastated, you know, seeing, seeing, seeing a bunch of your guys just, you know, hugging each other and crying and just heartbroken as far as how the game ended was tough. But, you know, they were all very accountable. And, you know, coach came in and basically said, we're going to handle the loss, you know, just like we would in victory with class, and we're going to handle it the right way.

And as a coach, Doug, the coolest thing of the whole situation was kind of getting feedback from guys in the media after the open locker, I'm basically saying I've never seen a kid like Samir or a team like Auburn handle such a difficult situation that well. So as devastating as it was to be, you know, because how hard it is to get to a final four. I mean, it's damn near impossible to get there and to be so close to, you know, playing in a game to win a national championship and having it end the way it did.

While it was all devastating, obviously incredibly proud of, you know, the kids, how they handled the moment and just kind of how they represent them. How are you guys so successful in spite of the turnovers? Like, right? Because it does violate, it does violate some of the laws of basketball,

which is like, you know, like I tell kids all the time, like, look, you know, if you just don't turn the basketball over. I told a couple of coaches, actually Texas Tech guys, they were getting ready to play Michigan. And they were like, how do you beat Michigan? How do you stop them? And I go, just don't turn it over. Like literally, they can't score. They know they really can't score. If you don't turn it over, it sounds easy.

But you guys do, you allow them so much freedom, not just with shot selection, but also, you know, you mentioned, you know, some. kicking the ball out of bounds sometimes, you know, the New Mexico State. How do you, how are you guys able to be so successful in spite of the turnovers? I mean, I think at the end of the year, you actually didn't turn over as much, which, you know, you saw, I think there's a lot of the biggest reasons I want on our run. But at the same time, when we turn the ball over,

I think we're number two in the country and turnover percentage. So we create, you know, a ton of extra possessions every game because we turn other people over. So we're able to get those turnovers back. just with how we play defense. So we're able to survive that because we don't win in possessions. We're trying to get the possessions up into the high 70s, low 80s in games. So when we do kind of get flopped at the ball and turn over,

we're also creating a pace that gets done to do the same thing, so we're able to get those possessions back. I think our ability to turn people over allows us a little more freedom at turn the ball over. But at the end of the year, you know, you looked at our turnovers. We didn't turn over our last 10 games. We did a really good job of playing. while taking care of the ball.

And part of it, too, is, you know, we'd put a shot up before we could turn it over. So it limited turnovers in postseason play, which was really good. Yeah, it's funny. You actually only had six turnovers in the game against Virginia, which is, you know, part of that is, you know, the way in which they play. Yeah.

It reminds me, Dave Wojik, who was the coach at San Jose State. I remember he was one of his first years there. I was doing a game, and he goes, look, I told him to shoot whenever they want. As long as they, that way they don't, they can't turn over if they shoot. That's right. That was, that was, before you can turn it over. That's what BP says. One of your closest friends is Todd Golden.

You just got the job at San Francisco. Obviously, he used to be with you guys at Auburn, before he was an assistant at San Francisco kind of going back home. What's it like to see a friend? Like in the coaching community, what's it like to see one of your boys at such a young age get such a great opportunity? Yeah, I actually was on the phone with Todd right before we talked to you. and he was, you know, trying to get us to come out to the bay to play a game.

It's great to kind of see him be so successful. And, you know, he obviously took a huge risk leaving, you know, an SEC assistant position to go out to San Francisco to be the associate head coach in a league where you have Gonzaga and St. Mary's and BYU and some of the teams that kind of normally finish in those top three. And then all they do is just rack off 21 seasons every single year. and it all worked out perfectly for him. And, you know, kind of said this from day one,

knowing Todd is he's a rising star of the profession, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he gets out there to San Francisco, you know, has two really good seasons. And then, you know, he'll end up being one of the youngest Power 5 head coaches in, you know, in one of those leagues. I think that highly of them. But just to see his success and kind of see that tree of coaches, you know, that we've kind of had here, you know,

under BP kind of grow and watch guys like him get head jobs. It couldn't have him to a better guy. You know, he's an amazing coach, and obviously we're just really excited for him and kind of what he's going to be able to do with that program. Okay, what about you? I mean, like, look, this has been a – it's actually been a super meteoric rise, right?

Yeah. And on the other hand, like, there's always going to be, ah, he's Bruce Pearl's kid. And so some guys who are the sun, they just sit there and they kind of, they ride it out. You know, like I've talked to Kellyn Sampson, who, you know, now he got the title of, like, future head coach, whatever it is, head coach designate at Houston. It's still a hard thing. Like, it's not something that he wanted, but it's not something you can turn down.

So really, what for you was a future hold? Yeah, that's a good question. Justin coach and, you know, we've won two, SEC candidates in the middle final four. So, you know, resume. But I think part of it is, you know, figuring out what the best opportunity is. for me moving forward, whether that's a head coaching job at a low major, mid-major, if that, you know, if the opportunity to present himself or, you know, go get my, you know, my feet wet under another, you know, really good head coach, trying to find another guy in the profession

who I can learn from, work under, and vouch for. Because at the end of the day, you know, he is my, he is our head coach and, you know, but the word of your dad only goes so far sometimes. So getting out there and getting, you know, someone else that, you know, that you can work for and teach you some things and kind of get your name out there. So got to be the right situation, but definitely just, you know, looking to learn as much that possibly can while I'm here and then kind of assess the next opportunity. So, you know, tons of options.

Just got to, you know, figure it out as they come. You guys, you guys faced off with Duke early in the season. That was all the way back in Maui. Yep. you saw Zion, I know in high school, right? I mean, all those, you guys all saw him. Yeah. There's a lot of people like, oh, yeah, we knew, like,

no one knew he was going to be this dom. Like, did you, like, did you know he would be what he became as a, as a college player? I had a, I had a feeling he'd be really good in college just because when you look at him in person, you see his explosion, his quickness, and just the way he gets from point A to point B. be he does it better than anyone and that was going to translate over in the college game um obviously

his shot making was the one knock on him um in high school he was so much stronger and he was so much more athletic and quicker than everyone else that he could just get to the room whenever the hell he wanted and and dunk or finish over people at ease um so would that have translated over into the college game so we knew that he'd be a great college player um but to this level i mean i'm not sure if anyone knew how good he was going to be. And I think part of that is just how hard he's worked on his game. So not to answer your question, I knew he'd be good. I did not know he'd be this good.

How did everybody, how did everybody miss on John Morant? That's good question. I think part of it was maybe the AU team he played for. a team in South Carolina that's got a bunch of really tough, scrappy players, you know, guys that really wouldn't go notice because they don't play in the big tournaments. You know, it takes guys that will go into side gyms and spend time in side gyms, but no one else's going to be in. I think, you know, the guys at Murray State did that, and they recognized it right away.

So I think part of it is just, you know, he didn't play on the most prominent team to kind of get into the, in front of the most prominent coaches. And there's only so many places that we're able to kind of be in the summer. And, you know, sometimes it's so spread out that you're just missing a ton of stuff. So it's kind of one of the things where, you know, sometimes you land in the right gym at the right time, kind of like we did with, you know, with Jared Harper early in his career. BP was in Chumotiki. B.P. was in side gyms, watching the Georgia Star's young teams and just kind of fell on those guys and

start on them early. John Bernard is a little different because he didn't play for the Georgia Starz. He played for, like, teen South Carolina or something. So I think part of it is just being so too spread out. There being so many different locations, which it's gotten better, but that's what causes you to miss on some guys like that. Yeah, and look, guys also get better. Like, that's one of the things that...

No question. Like, everybody thinks that everyone missed. Like, we're going to have Phil Bechneron here part of this pod, and he was at... he was at weaver state when damien lilyler was there and everybody's like well everybody in in the pack 12 missed on damia lillard my brother's like look he was a you know a six one two guard and and then he just he worked and worked and worked and made himself into a great player like a great player and that's a that's it's a it's a one it's a credence to him and then obviously

to assistant coach they can see what what a guy has within him um the hardest guy to prepare for this year the best player you thought you coached against, you preparing so much of the defense. You guys faced Kentucky, LSU, Dube. Who would you say to? Oh, man. T.J. Washington was a tough one just for us because, you know, he was his ability to shoot the ball. And then in addition, you know, his ability to push you up inside.

So personally, that was that was one. The one guy I was actually really concerned about was Cassius Winston. That was my scott if we had made it to the championship of getting Michigan. day to one. Just watching, you know, I watch like 10 or 15 games of them, and they run so much stuff, and he's involved in it in so many different ways, whether he's, you know, setting 10 down and getting re-screens or he's in ball screens, and he's doing a million different things.

You've got a key on him, but then, you know, if you do lock him up, he's able to get 10 or 15 assists in the game. So really all year, I felt pretty good about all over-recovered, but PJ was one of them, and then having, watching Cassius, you know, in the week. week leading up to the Final Four. I think he had been a handful for us. Last thing, the most underrated, take your staff out, the most underrated coach in the SEC. You get to see all these teams, a ton of teams in the SEC.

I think sometimes the coaching goes by the wayside because we talk about the players and everything else. To you, the most underrated coach in that league is who? Right now, my most underrated coach before last year was Mark. Mark Fox. Actually, the nose-wise, I thought he was really good.

They ran great stuff. But now in this league, um... You don't have to make one up. If they're all stink, it's okay. I'll just say you think they all stink. It's okay. You think you could draw circles around all their stuff.

It's okay. Yeah. I mean, um, I mean, honestly, you want the best answer? I think it's cow.

As good as he is, like recruiting. The way he's able to get that collection of talent and sometimes personality to buy in, he's able to deal with all the outside noise all in the early

season when people say that they're not good. He's on a bad job. And then every year, he just kind of finds a way at the end of the year for them to kind of start clicking and, you know, I forgot what the number is on his elite eights, but he's been to the only eight years or something like that. That's, you know,

It's really hard to do that. And he's never up here. He wasn't up for national coaches he does here, which was kind of mind-boggling. But I don't know if he's underrated, but he definitely doesn't give as much credit as I think he's there sometimes. Non-basketball, greatest part about, greatest moment you've been at Auburn.

It was when Auburn football beat Alabama, side Georgia and then Alabama, when they were both number one. those like three weeks during the season were just unbelievable. And to kind of see Coach Malzon and those guys beat two number one teams with what had a matter of a few weeks. It was incredible. They stormed the field after the Alabama game, won the SEC well.

So that was probably the best. Does BP still get a boat or is that only a Tennessee thing? I think if he ever asked for one, he could definitely get one. He's a lakehouse here in the future, should be cool, but honestly, I haven't had time to kind of get out on the boat. Well, listen, you've been more than generous with your time. Congratulations on what was an incredible season.

And look forward to talking with you off air, maybe bringing your dude Hayes down to basketball camp this year. We'll send you the day until pick him out, me and my boy, Hay. You've got to see his jump shot. It's kind of wet now. You know how lefties always have it? Like, now, I mean, it's spinning right. He's kind of shoot with one hand.

Like he's, you're just saying, this is actually a really funny side. So I don't let, I didn't let my last year was his third grader. I didn't let third, fourth graders. I didn't let him shoot threes. None of them, right?

So I have one now that can kind of, that can get it there and can shoot it without throwing it, whatever. So he made one and he got fouled in the game, uh, on the game last weekend. And I go, uh, and they didn't call a foul.

He's like, dad, did you see that and one on a three point shot? I go, yeah. He goes, you know the song, Old Town Road? I was like, yeah, he goes, it was in my head, and when I shot it, right when the ball went in, the beat dropped.

No. My guy, hey, that's a whole way. He's a character. He's a beauty, man. He's a beauty. He is. All right, man. Thanks for your time, and we appreciate you join us

in the All Ball podcast. That, brother. I appreciate you, man. All right, that's it for this edition of All Ball. Make sure you download, subscribe. Listen to the radio show at 3 to 6 Eastern. Every day, Monday through Friday on Fox Sports Radio. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is AllBall.

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