The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Gottlieb – All Ball - UNC/Duke ticket prices not all Zion; Anthony Davis All-Star Game answers; Kansas State Asst. Chris Lowery

Episode Date: February 21, 2019

This week, Gottlieb explains why Zion Williamson isn't the only reason for sky-high ticket prices for Wednesday's Duke/UNC game, why he's not buying Anthony Davis saying he'll sign anywhere, and if Davis and LeBron James would even be a good fit, Doug also chats with Kansas State Assistant Coach Chris Lowery on this year's  K-State team, coaching under Bruce Weber, and his life in coaching. Subscribe here to the All Ball Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2.   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Let's ride. Hey, welcome in to All Ball. I'm Doug Gottlie. We got a great guest for you this week. His name is Chris Lowry. If you know college bass, we're like, oh, I know Chris Lowry. He played at Southern Illinois. He was once upon time the coach at Southern Illinois when they were rolling.

Remember, they made it to six straight NCAA tournaments sets with three combined coaches. Bruce Weber, Mad Painter, then Chris Lowry. the bottom kind of fell out. What happened? How'd it fall out? Did he know it was coming? And what did he learn from the experience? What was it like to bury a son? What was it like to lose your job?

What's it like at Kansas State? And what would it mean for Kansas State to win the Big 12 and for Bruce Weber, who replaced Bill Self at Illinois, finally beat Bill Self in the Big 12 standings? All of those questions will be asked of Chris Lowry. I think you'll really enjoy our discussion. I do want to share with you something that I find interesting. If you listen to this show, if you listen to this podcast or to my radio show,

the Doug Gottlieb show, Fox Sports Radio, every day, 3 to 6 Eastern Time, 12 to 3 Pacific, you know that I'm, I would guess I'm anti-pay the player. I feel like the payment is already received in regards to not just the scholarship, room board, et cetera, et cetera, but just admission to school and the payment that you receive for years to come, not just in your degree, but in the relationships which are fostered. which allow you to succeed post-playing career. You know, when you get done playing, you pick up the phone, you need a job. Who are you going to call?

You're going to call people from your alma mater. Or when you walk in to apply for a job, they remember you because you played for your alma mater and maybe played against theirs or played for theirs. So I think there's an invaluable asset commodity that we don't talk enough about in the media, that for some reason we're anti-school. We're anti-everything big. And because schools make money off athletes, they believe that somehow athletes deserve payments. A couple of truths need to be told here.

First, schools make money off all of their students. Lots and lots and lots and lots of money off all of their students, regardless of their athletic prowess. And then the irony to it is, the second you walk out the door with the degree, which you paid for, and they made money on you and on your parents and also the state funding that the not privates, the public schools are able to get, then they ask you for money in order to continue making money off their students, either current or former. The first thing is this idea that you only make money off of athletes is dumb and short-sighted. They make money off of all of their students. And the only difference is there's a ton more payment that goes back in return

to the student athlete. But with Zion Williamson and Duke playing North Carolina, line in front of a packed house and you hear the ticket prices are up of $4,000. First of all, that's stupid. Nobody's paying $4,000 to sit in Cameron and door. If they are, they're a sucker. They're a whale. They just are. But you have to ask yourself, does this prove that Zion as a commodity is more valuable

than college basketball alone? Now, if you want to say that the reason the ticket price is jacked up is because of Zion Williamson, I'm okay with that. But that admits that there isn't another college basketball player that would drive the market so high or even above that of face value. How many half empty at best arenas do we see? So if Zion has value, what about everybody else? Which is kind of the point, right? It's a great system for 99% of the kids.

But the other part to it is two other parts. First is Zion packed the house against lamello ball in a summer league game. So if it's because the house is packed with Zion Williamson playing in it, what about high school gyms that are packed because of a kid? Does that mean those kids deserve to be paid? So the first thing you're doing is you're making it obvious that there is no value to any other one individual player in college basketball. That's an important distinction to make.

if Zion Williamson is the sole reason for the ticket prices being spiked. And look, I don't actually think anybody's paying $4,000 for a ticket, what you're asking for and what you get. If you play basketball, that's like playing in Greece. What they tell you're going to get paid and what you actually get paid. Or, you know, if you're just a guy, how many women you've been with, cut it in half? How many men has she been with? Add, you know, multiply by two, right?

But the idea that, okay, maybe it is a $3,000, some ridiculously priced ticket. that admits that if no other tickets are going above face and no other tickets go above face, then really no one else has value, which is accurate. The values in the coaches, because they're the only ones that return, and they're the ones that recruit players, and they essentially knight the players, which makes us want to watch those players. But the second part to it, and here's where it's false to assume that it's simply about Zion Williamson. Is he a factor sure?

but he's played in 25 other games, and there hasn't been this sort of bartering for, you know, this sort of monetary amount towards a ticket. It has to do with the North Carolina rivalry, with the town on the other team, with Roy Williams versus Coach K, with the size and the history of the bandbox in Cameron and North Stadium that they play in.

And, oh, yeah, by the way, there's been a relentless hype machine. Just like last year with Tray Young, year as Zion Williamson because nobody pays attention to college basketball. We need one guy to watch, and this is the one guy to watch, this is the big rivalry, it's played in the unique bandbox arena. There's a bunch of, a myriad of reasons why the ticket prices in the secondary ticket market have spiked.

But only a small fraction of it is Zion, and if you admit that one big part is Zion, then you'd have to admit, well, that means that everyone else in the sport has no. value in terms of ticket prices. Let me give a quick nugget on the NBA. And this is important to point out that one of the ways in which you know if somebody said or did something they are not supposed to do and they don't apologize if they completely can change the narrative, right? And somebody gets to them.

What was the guy's name? Frank Pantangeli from the godfather to? Remember Frank Pantangelo? He turned state's evidence and he's going to turn in Michael Coral. He goes before the Supreme Court. And all of a sudden, Michael Corleone is sitting with a man who doesn't speak English. And Frank Pantangely, all of a sudden changed his tune. Michael Corleone.

Michael Corleone. No, his family and my family, we've done business and all of all business for years, right? That's what happened with Anthony Davis over the All-Star Break. He started the All-Star Break leaving the bench of the New Orleans Pelicans. to get his shoulder looked at. It gets an MRI, then leaves the arena, and his coach loses his mind. Rightfully so, Alvin Gentry,

who everybody in the NBA respects really, really likes, as a man respects as a coach. Del Demp's gets fired the next day, and then the commissioner of the NBA says what we're all thinking, which is, hey, it's cool if you want to ask for a trade behind the scenes, but making it public and then tearing apart other franchises in your desire to get there, that's not how we want to do business.

That's why Anthony Davis went from the, I want to be a Laker to, hey, 29 teams. I mean, if 29 teams, why not 30? Why not be open to staying with the Pelicans? Because it's so disingenuous. And even when he said 29 teams, he said for the next year, which means he's not going to commit to staying long term.

But that's like a Frank Pantangley moment. Lakers, what are you talking? Lakers, I'll go anywhere to play. I don't care. I know the Celtics are still going to go after him. The Knicks will probably go after them. And my big question with the Lakers, obviously what the Pelicans has been, will they even get the offer that they desire or think they may have gotten before the trade deadline?

My guess is no, that's a depreciating asset. The offers aren't likely to go up. They might go down if some of those players play well here at the end of the season. But my big question is, does Anthony Davis and LeBron James actually fit together well? LeBron James has won two NBA titles. And for the most part, his finishing lineup has had his center in the corner spacing the floor. I don't, Anthony Davis can shoot the ball as become a better three-point shooter, but that's the worst thing he does.

How do those two fit together well? Can Anthony Davis defend the rim? Sure. Does he want to play center full-time? I don't know, but that's what would happen. That's what would happen. And when LeBron has the ball in isolation sets, if he's not setting a pick-and-roll, and LeBron's not really a pick-and-roll player, you can play some,

but it's not what he does best. All of a sudden now you got Anthony Davis spacing the floor standing in the corner like Chris Bosch and Kevin Love did. Not sure they actually fit together all that well. Let me take a minute to tell you about Robin Hood. Robin Hood is an investing app that lets you buy and sell stocks, ETFs, options, and cryptos, all commission free. While other brokerages charge up to $10 for every trade,

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I covered his games when he was an assistant at Southern Illinois, when he was assistant in Illinois, he's a head coach at Southern. and of course now since he's moved to Kansas State as an assistant coach. Chris Lowry is a fascinating, fascinating guy. Here's my discussion with the Kansas State Assistant Basketball Coach. At the time of this recording, you guys just got back from Morgantown. And it was kind of a, it's, I don't know, I don't know what it was like to play the game,

but to watch the game, it's kind of like polar opposite of what it had been like to go into Morgantown. usually crazy environment where the home team is favored, and they're going to try and kind of find a way, whereas in this case, the place was, I don't know, half, three quarters full. They were a little bit down this year, and you guys pulled away in the second half. What was the difference?

How were you able to win that game in the road? Well, the biggest thing is, you know, Javon Carter. I mean, they were so dominant defensively, you know, the past four years and the Press, Virginia. and those guys generate so much offense from defense. Now they've lost Dax DeMiles, they lost Javon, and Sags is out. You know, a big kid in the middle, you know, who was a big part of why they were special.

You know, those guys don't have the uniform anymore. So it's a different lineup. It's definitely a different feel. You know, we told our guys you lost by 35 there last year. And it wasn't 20, and we just made it up, you know, to make it feel good that we actually He lost by 35 in Morgantown last year. So being able to go there and fight and, you know, and that's what they've been doing. His teams are going to still play hard.

They're going to play hard. And then until to a point, that's what we told our guys when we get them to that point. We definitely got to take advantage of it. And you did. And, I mean, I thought you guys showed good poise against the pressure and got good shots, made the extra pass. Like, there was, I know that the average. basketball fan just looks at the box score and goes, well, yeah, of course, Kansas State beat West Virginia. But those things, those games can go, can go sideways in a hurry.

You get down, they start throwing in shots, you start struggling with the reps on the road. Like, I thought there was some toughness there that showed from this team. Absolutely. Our senior class was obviously extremely tough. And Barry Brown is just nails. And Barry got a technical there last year. Barry was not very good at all last year. Javon Carter won both matchups with him.

And the kind of ironic thing, we go in the gym to practice, you know, shoot around yesterday, and Javon Carter's on break from the NBA All-Star. And we just started laughing. It was like Barry had a nightmare. This guy's coming back. You know, he was in there working out. And, you know, that's the reality of it is guys remember who their nemesis are. And for that guy to show up, and even though he wasn't playing, you know, everybody's eyes got big.

We walked that gym and saw him in there. Barry Brown, I think, is, like, top five in scoring now. He's first in steals in his career. How'd you get him? Remind me of how you got him, because he's a four-year kid from Florida. Four-year kid, you know, he played on an unbelievably loaded each one, each one team. The two NBA guys, Ben Simmons, and the other kid on the Bulls, you know, they were all the same team. And Woffers league to score, the guy who really shoot the crap out of ball.

They were all in one team. And Barry was like the sixth man. and you just, you know, Chester Frazier saw him at Ola Depot camp, and he really scored the ball at high clip. Then we watched him at Pete's Jam, and he played a little bit. You know, whenever he get in, he gets five or six. But when Ben Simmons went home, and the other top player did show up in Louisville for A.U.N.N.U.N.N.

You know, all of a sudden, this guy who we know was Barry Brown was that guy on the team, and he was leading him. and scoring. He was, you know, still in the ball. He was doing, he was scoring from all over the, you know, place. And one thing Coach Weber is big on is this. We may not get the top elite player, but if they'll come and continue to grow with us and develop, that those guys can start in any league in the country.

And Barry's one of those guys who we identified and said he fits us and give him an opportunity as a freshman and just ride with him. And now that's, you know, he's become such a dominant point. player. So walk me through this, though. Like, like you said, he plays on a loaded AAU team, right, where you got, you got a couple pros and, um, um, um, he plays on a loaded AU team. He's got a couple pros.

And then he plays, um, let's get, Fletcher McGee. Is that the kid you're talking about from Lester McGee? Yeah. Fletcher's all the team, too, yeah. Okay, so what, I guess my first question is, why didn't you work? Did you not recruit Fletcher? Did you, we did. We did. We actually did. We just didn't know if he could get up to our level because, you know, he wasn't the fleet of the foot, but, you know, you watch him, he's like, holy cow, like this guy can. I mean, it's, it's, what he does now is what he was doing. There's no, there's been no change. And he picked the right level, and he's been a dominant player.

Right. And, and people, I don't think people sometimes understand the difference in levels and how, and, and even if right now he would be a star in the Big 12, the fact is that had he come to Kansas, state, he wouldn't have played the first couple years, right? And, and, and, and may have never grown and evolved in terms of confidence and become just kind of an off the bench, catch and shoot guy, whereas now, like, he's going to make an NBA team. He would have been drafted last year. For somebody who's a young coach or a basketball fan and they're listening, how do you evaluate that Barry Brown, who comes out the bench and plays limited minutes? Like, he can play in the big 12. And I don't know if you thought he would be a great player, a first team all big 12, potential big 12 player of the year player, but that's what he is.

is, how do you evaluate that versus Fletcher-Meggie? Was it speed and athleticism? Was it size for a position? What is it that separates it to when you're evaluating? Well, with fast, and he could just steal the ball from people. That's the first thing, you know, obviously we're defensive-minded. They could really guard the ball. And he can make pull-ups.

So he's making all these pull-ups right now. And that's the first thing. He's like, holy shit, that dude is a throwback guy. Like, he makes layups and pull-ups. He's not making threes, and people just don't value that. He can't shoot the three, but you don't pay attention. He'll score 10 points, and two will be less than three are pull-ups on people. Like hard pull-ups in the YBL are just like, damn, that's a tough shot.

And on the high major level, we look at Fletcher-Magee. And we basically were looking at him as a specialist, as opposed to being a player. Like, not in Illinois, he would be a player for us and not a specialist. You know, and that's the difference because of the levels different. Yep. Can Fletcher-Mage get a bucket other than. that three. And then we would use him as a specials early on and then hope that he could evolve into a player. Whereas on the mid-level, he's a player from day one. Right. Because he's so talented. And then

you improve it and you improve in your confidence grows and your confidence grows and the sky is limited. And you know, guys work. Guys get better. And some guys improve it at a different rate. Correct. All right. So you grew up in Evansville. And Evansville's this to people outside, like we all think of just Indiana, and you think of Indianapolis. But I know, like, Walter McCarty took over at E.ville. I know Brad Barnell is another. There's, like, a big group of Evansville guy. Who was the group of guys you grew up around when you were playing?

It's kind of, you know, when I tell people who I, like, grew up with grade school, middle school, high school. So obviously, the first one is Calvert Cheney, who was a great player at IU, national player of the year in 93. You know, me and Cal, you know, we're childhood friends. Walter McCarty went to middle school. in high school with, you know, childhood friends, one of my best friends, won a national championship in Kentucky, played the NBA just like Calvert.

Brad Brownell was, I was a freshman he was a scene. That was a guy. My high school coach told me, I don't like you too short. I like my point guards tall. That's who I replaced. And the lineup was Bradinell, you know, it was player of the year in our league, the city, great player. Then on the football side of a Kevin Hardy who won the Bucketton in 94, 95,

and played NFL for 10 years. We were all in the same, you know, high school, middle school, grade schools. That's crazy. That's absolutely crazy. So, so you went, how did you decide on Southern? I decided that Southern because, you know, obviously I had all the Valley schools and a Mac. And I just, Southern was a school that told me, hey, we got all-conference point guard. But after that, you're going to start for three years. And basically it was true.

You know, what they told me actually happened. and, you know, best decision ever made, you know. Because you can get caught up in it because when, Doug, you know this, we were coming up, if you were a little, you weren't a combo, you were a point guard only. Now dudes would get away with being a combo because they can't make decisions or they can't playmate, but they can shoot. You know, and if you couldn't be a point guard and you couldn't play,

you were off the bench, you're a reserve guy. You had to be doing all of it, be able to penetrate, playmate, make plays. and lead the team. So you show up it, and for people who haven't, like, you're not, I don't know the type of neighborhood you're from in Evansville, but it's not a terrible neighborhood, but it's a, it's, Evansville is a city, right? It's a city, yeah. Okay, you show up in, in Carbondale, Illinois, which, I mean, it's called Egypt.

Is it called Egypt because it's bumfuck Egypt? Is that why they call Egypt Illinois? Or is that where Egypt comes from? But, I mean, it's, it's, and you and I have a great affinity for it, but what, what was that experience like? like when you're like, dude, I'm in literally the middle of nowhere? It's one of those deals where actually, you know, they call Little Egypt because of the fertile farmland around. There's lakes and all kinds of stuff. It's actually a beautiful

area. But like you said, it is, it is somewhere that you have to know where you're going to get there. Because if you show up there, you're like, where the hell out? Where is this at? And the one thing they drove, they had tremendous fan support. It was like, it was the deal. You know, it was, it was the deal. it's just one of those places where it's a college town is only 26,000, you know, people in the town. It's about, you know, 20-something thousand students, so the students are the town. There's no commercial industry. The university is the town.

When you got there, did you play for Rich Herron? Is that who you play for? Yep, Rich Heron. What was he like? He was an older coach, and it was hard to relate to him. But, you know, I came from Indiana where we didn't. do stuff like push it and shoot threes on the break. Like, we didn't do stuff like that.

You know, we ball control. We do motion. You know how to play. You know how to attack zones. You shot fake, past fake. You make plays. Coach Aaron was like, take me out if I didn't, like, shoot all the break, or if I wasn't super aggressive in transition.

And so I had to learn how to be free and loose because I come up in a system where you was regimented. It was, you know, skills and IQ. driven to go to play in an open offense where you go get your game on. So if you play there, you start three years. What was your best year? As a sophomore. I mean, I had a great sophomore year all conference, and we won the league.

Number one seed, got upset in the tournament, and ended up going to NIT, my sophomore year. So I was glad to go to NIT and two NCAA tournaments in my four years. and the and and that's when it kind of kind of started there um it's fascinating to me because the valley used to be so good like of the things i miss most about 90s basketball is the valley like my brother was a walk at drake for two years and he used to tell me like do remember that was when people forget Tulsa was in the valley uh also big time i mean Tulsa was that that was when when Tulsa was big time that that was when they were in the valley was when this thing kind of all started what was your do you remember

your favorite place to play? Probably at Illinois State. You know, playing there. Play that at Tulsa was always fun, too. But there's so many venues, and it was, you know, it's called the Baby Big Ten because it was so physical. There was so many good players. There was pros in the league, and you had some really, there's big-time coaches. Bill was there, you know, at Kansas. You had Tubby, Kevin Stallings, Bruce Weber, Matt Painter. You had so many. guys that were in the league, you know, Max, he was at Creight. Like, there's so many guys in that league that you're just like, oh, my goodness. Kevin Stallons was, Kevin Stallons was at Illinois State, right?

I mean, you kind of go through there, and it's really amazing. Okay, so you get, you get done, you get done playing, you finish up, and then what? Where are you in your life? I'm at, I'm in my life. You know, I'm like every other dude, I want to still hoop, but my knees are done. I just said, I got to figure this shit out. So I just start coaching Juko ball right away. You know, and that's the, you know, so many guys getting a profession.

You know, I literally didn't want to leave the game. So I was like, well, let me try this. And the guy who was the GA at Southern Illinois, my freshman in the sophomore year, ended up being the head juco coach at Ren Lake. Junior coach was right outside of Carbondale, and that was my first job. So your first job was at an assistant at Ren Lake? Right. And you guys have anybody good?

We were pretty good. We won 20 games my last year there. We have a really good player who ends up going to UIC and they're really good in the late 90s with Jimmy Collins. You know, his first two NCAA tournament teams, our guy was a big part of that. So just that's how you learn, you know, the different aspects of recruiting. You know, when you're a Juko guy, you have players that Division I coaches want to get. So you learn how to deal with that side of it in recruiting. You know, and then you go and change levels,

then you have to go back to those junior-cahous guys and try to get their players. So learning how to talk to Jukau guys and to recruit Jukau players, it was obviously benefited from being a Jukau coach. Was it one of those things where you just couldn't wait to get out? Or were you, I mean, what was the experience like for you? It was great. I mean, I loved it.

I mean, I knew I wanted to coach at that point. And it's so interesting because, it was never about money at all. It was about, man, I think I really want to do this. And you go to the Final Four, and you just, you know, we used to call out the Shark Tank. You walk around and you pass that out. Your resume to guys is, hey, I'm, you know, Juco coach. Oh, yeah, I, you know, recruit one of your guys, you know, a couple years ago.

You know, I want to try to, you know, move up. And, you know, I literally did that, passed out resumes in the, you know, in the headquarters. And 97 at the final four in Indianapolis trying to get a job, trying to move up. Here's that you don't know. Or maybe you don't think we've ever discussed this. I actually met you. You were at Missouri Southern, which is in Joplin. Right.

My college roommate Rodney Souter is from Miami, Oklahoma, which is just on the other side of the border in Oklahoma. And then my wife, and then he was dating a girl from Joplin. and then my wife's best friend was also from or was, she's now married to a guy, she lives in Joplin, but we came around, we were messing around in your gym. I don't remember if, it was a guy named Jeff Hafer, who played at Missouri. Yeah, and Hafer was like, hey, if you're in town, like come hoop,

and we hooped on like a Saturday, Sunday morning or something, and we actually met then, and I didn't meet you again until you were an assistant at Southern. You guys had it rolling. So how'd you get to Missouri Southern? What was that like? Well, one of the guys I met in that lobby needed to the GA for Division II team. And, of course, I was like, hell yeah, I'm going to, I definitely move up. And, you know, obviously I got a chance to recruit, do scout reports, do all the dirty work.

And that's back when you used to go live scout people. So I learned how to live scout a game. And, you know, learn, learn how to do, you know, do breakdown film with OVHS, you know, with two different VCRs going back and forth to do a scouting port. Like, these kids today, they just get it off Synergy. It's so lazy. It's so lazy down up on Synergy. You're like, here's all the ball screens that they've run this year.

Right. Give me all the makes by number 20. It does. You know what I mean? And we had to literally watch a whole bunch of film and went to it back and forth between two VHS. When the dual VHS came out, you would have thought that college coaches went, crazy over. Okay, so who's the coach?

Robert Corn is the coach. And ironically, he played for Rich Harron in high school. Rich Aaron was a high school coach before he was the head coach of Southern Illinois. So he gave me an opportunity, big time opportunity, never forget it. You know, obviously he's a big part of, you know, me, you know, evolving as a young coach. And then Herron played fast. How did how did Corn play? Corn was a

And this is like all tight in He's a Gene Bartow disciple Which is crazy He played at Memphis for Coach Barton Barton Barton was there He was his top assistant at UAB For several years

In the 80s When you know Obviously when UAB started a program after he left UCLA So I got a lot of different people involved in my whole coaching You know obviously coach Bartow was a big part of Of my guys coaching concept. So we played really fast there too, but we played really organized. And we always had a plan for how to win, which is some, as a young player, you don't get that. Like, you know,

the scouting force I have it. We're having a plan to win. Coach Cohen showed me that guys, you know, good players are one thing, but you got to have a plan to how you're going to do it. And, you know, that's what I learned from him. Okay, so then you went to Simo for a year. Who's head coached Seymow? See, Gary Garner, and Gary Garner, you know, obviously he was a guy who played at Missouri. He's a Norm Stewart guy. So my year with Coach Garner was coach Stewart's first year out. And I'm telling you, you would have thought Coach Stewart, he'd come down and he, golly, you want to talk about a fiery guy.

And he'd get on our guys in our practice because, you know, he was, you know, he was, you know, he was. He was done coaching, and obviously Coach Garner was one of his disciples, and Coach Garner had won two national championships on Division II level, and he'd known my guy, you know, Robert Corn, because they're the same region. He was at Fort Hays State, which is right over in Kansas, and just, you know, asking people around, I don't have any good, young assistant who's an up-and-comer works hard. You know, there's not going to be a pre-Madonna has worked as well,

and obviously I got the job because of that. And then where were you, where is this in your relationship with your wife? Well, we are, we already married. Do you get married at school? Did you get married right at school? No, no, no. We got married when I was in Missouri Southern. Missouri Southern.

The, B-2. So this is like three years after I'm done playing. Okay, so then how did you, then you go back to Southern with, with coach, right? I mean, that was, that was before. Go ahead. So, this is a funny story. So I interviewed, like, three times with Coach Weber. And nobody, like, people in the headside knows this.

I interviewed the, when he first got the job, and I was still at Missouri Southern. And, you know, his first questions are me or do I know, like, high-end, you know, recruiting guys. I'm like, of course not. I did D-2 at Juco. I know the underbelly of recruiting. I know the other side, you know. He's asking me, and obviously I didn't get a job.

Then the very next year, I interview again, and they'll get it. And then, you know, I'm at Simo, and my son is born. And you know my son Doug's, but who passed away in 2016. He was born that year, and it was such a tough year for me that I told Coach Weber I wasn't interested. He called because I was like, I'm not going to go through that again. So Paint is an assistant there. Me and Payne grew up in Indiana.

I had no paint from A.U. We grew up, you know, he grew up playing against. Everybody knows the good players in him. me in. So me and Payne, knowing each other for years. And Payne goes, I'm telling you, you're coming. He goes, Coach Weber didn't offer you the job. I go, I haven't talked to Coach Weber. He calls, he calls Coach Weber, and Coach Weber calls and starts talking to me about insurance, and that's what type of guy, Bruce Weber is. He knew what I was going through with my son, who'd almost pass away. And he was, he was,

he was literally, he was about two months old. He was still in the hospital. And for a guy, you know, to call me and just talk talking about insurance and, you know, we'll find a way to take care of your son. That was his priority with me over hiring me. That's why I'm tight with him. My family is tight with his family. My wife loves his wife. Like, we're intertwined just because of that side of our relationship. Now, do you know the Bruce Weber story with my dad?

I don't. So Dave Weber's brother was my dad's favorite. player at UW Milwaukee. This is in the late 70s. And I think it was just his, just one year, Bruce was my dad's, I was a manager or GA. And then when, when Coach Katie got the West Kentucky job, my dad called Coach Katie and was like, hey, I got a young guy, young assistant, you got to hire. Now, my dad knew Coach Katie because my dad had been assistant under Eddie Sutton back

at Crickland. And so, like, that's how it works. So is that UW Milwaukee, he's his, you'd have to ask him, I can't remember if he was a GA or if he was the head manager, but he was, I mean, he traveled with the team, he's around the team, and you know, up until the day he died,

my dad would say that Dave Weber was his favorite player he ever coach. And so, and anyway, so that's how Bruce kind of got started into that basketball family, and then obviously it grew to be part of, you'd be part of his basketball family. Okay, so you graduate, you go to

you coach Juko, you coach D2, you're in low D1 at Simo, you roll back into town with a wife, a newborn, but a newborn baby that has some special needs as well. What was that like to be back in Carbondale where you had previously been as a player and of course had been as a Juco coach as well?

It was good. You know, that time we had three kids and daughter and CJ and then now Carari is our third. we, you know, so it was awesome. And the thing about it is, you know, we, coach, it wasn't where it was going to go. And I got there, obviously, when you're on a staff, you got to figure out your niche. You know, I knew, you know, obviously, everybody knows Matt Painter. His offensive mind is unbelievable, you know, how he can generate, he generates points.

He knows what he's doing. He's great at it. And I knew that coach relied on him. him for that side of the ball. I had just been Juco, and I love watching film, and I love watching, like, you know, defensive schemes and all kind of shit that pertain to that side of the ball. So I just said, you know what, I'm going to just,

I'm going to learn their system, and I'm going to put it on steroids on the defensive side. So that's kind of what we did. You know, we just, I really worked with really helping us get better defensively, and Pank was the offensive guy, and Coach Weber had a million plays in his head. You know, Coach Weber would be in timeouts and say, we ran this for Big Dogs, and I'm like, what? You know, and he just, like, say that it was,

it was at Minnesota, you know, his sophomore here, we ran this on the road, and he'd draw it up, and our kids are in the, like, on the puddle, like, what are he talking about? And he'd just draw it up, and then we'd hit a game winner, and it's just like, oh, shit. Like, and that's kind of how, you know, you have an affinity for a guy who can draw shit up and actually run it,

And people can draw shit up and they can put it out there for a player. But when a guy can actually draw it up and a player can see it and relate to it and be like, okay, I see what you're saying, Coach. And then go do it. Because, Doug, you know you've been in huddles where coach has drawn some shit up and you're a good point guard and you know that guy who's supposed to get it. I ain't feeling that play. You just do something different and make sure they get the ball at their sweet spot.

And they just do it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Listen, I've said this before in this podcast. Like, I play for Eddie Sutton. I don't remember him ever drawing anything up. Now, what he would do is Sean would draw it up, and he would point out, you know,

why and where it's going to be open. Like, that was kind of his gift was adding to things. Or I would draw it up, but I would, Sean and I would discuss, you know, and McLeod wouldn't draw things up, Fran McCaffrey would draw it up. But yes, I've been in professional huddles where guys are drawing stuff up and you look around, you look the guy in the eye, and you're like, he ain't feeling it at all.

So I can, I'm right. He's like, hell, no, I ain't doing that. Just give me the ball and get out of the way. Right. Okay, so why did it hit at Missouri State? Because this was at the peak of the valley most recently, right? Like, this is at a time where Creighton had it rolling. Tulsa was a little bit down then, if I remember correctly.

But everybody else seemed to be up at the top of the valley. But you guys all of a sudden became a dominant. team for a good five-year stretch there through three different head coaches, you being one of them. Why did it initially hit with Bruce? Well, initially hit because we had, it's the deal what he does. We had three guys that he signed when he first got there. They started as freshmen, and then by the time they were seniors, juniors and seniors, their junior year, and we had a guy who, and his guy in Roland Robertson,

and Virginia Tech got in trouble, comes to our place. He's a suit. He's above, he was above the valley. And he gave us something that we didn't have. We had all the IQ and the scoring and some elite athletes as far as guard play. We didn't have a dude that could just sit on the rim. And, you know, who was just an animal. And he gave us that side of it, the motion offense with just a guy,

it was a beast inside. And it hit. And then we signed younger guys that we didn't know would be, all-time great players, two. And so we went through a stretch where in each class, like, there's two of them that just went into the Missouri Valley Hall of Fame back-to-back years. We're going to have two more going to the Valley Hall of Fame as well.

But we didn't know, but we just trusted the system, trusted that we could teach it the right way, and trusted that our kids would pass, our kids would pass the baton, on and on and that's what happened. And we would like you and say, Hey, we knew, you know, one of our citizens here, Brad Corn, as a senior, they went 16, they went 17 and 1 in the league. That was Matt Painter's year, one year as head coach there.

You know, when we left to go to Illinois, I was like, ooh, I don't know how good they're going to be. Well, a guy who was a freshman off the bench for the average nine was a player of the year in the league for the next two years, and we had no idea that was going to happen, you know, and that's, but it's coaching. And it's the beauty of it. It's when you work at it and you get guys better, you develop them, then that takes over.

Who is that? Darren Brooks. Yeah. Man. Okay, so paints there a year. He leaves. How'd you get the job? I got the job.

You know, basically we're in, we're in Atlanta about to play Duke in the Sweet 16. and Paine calls and says to ask Coach what he should do. And me and Coach were walking in downtown Atlanta. He's just coach who likes to walk and pick your brain and stuff the day before a game. And he goes, you know, they ask Paineke to come be a coach and waiting at Purdue. If Coach Cady is Sendolph here and Paine's going to be the head coach the next year. And he asked me what I want to go back to Southern Illinois. And I said, what do you mean?

Why would I leave here to go back? he paints a system, that's stupid. He goes, no dummy. He's head coach. And I'm like, oh, hell yeah. You know, I'm 31, you know, I'm young. Yeah, I'd like to have the opportunity. And that's kind of how I went down.

So, how do you handle going back to a place you know better than, like, there's places you can go interview that you knew, but to have coached there, have played there. and have lived there outside of the program, you know, when you're at REND initially. So, like, you have kind of all different perspectives of it. Do you remember how you approached the interview, or was it just pick up the phone with, like, you're good? I approached it, like, I know everything about that place.

I can sell that place. I have people in place in the community, in the university, in the region that are willing to help with this thing and to help continue to keep it at a high level and that was really all it took you know paul qualtrow was 80 years there at the time um he just he thought about it because i didn't even go back down there in interview we just we were talking over the phone you know several nights in a row in a row and he just said and he called me one day and said you know what just come back you know i'm off for you i was like and i couldn't believe it and the funny story is My wife goes, I go, I tell her, I say, we're going back to Carverdale.

And again, like me, she's like, I don't want to leave Illinois. Why would you go back and be Matt Painter's assistant? When you're in the Big Ten, I go, no, dummy, I'm going to be the head coach. Like, Coach Weber did it to me, same, true story, same thing. And you just, you sit there, you just die laughing, you know, about, you know, how I went down. Okay, so you get there and you inherit Darren Brooks is a senior. You had what... Tatum was a sophomore, I think, right?

Tatum was a sophomore, and the funny thing about Tatum is, so I call his parents and say, hey, I'm going to Coach Weber to Illinois, and Tatum's like, out, I'm out. You know, you know how this stuff going on. And I got to convince him, like, no, just stay. Just, you know, just stay. And see how it works out.

See, you know, and his mom, obviously, She, you know, she's sharp. She goes, they're going to be, you know, who's going to be African-American assistant? If you're, you're the only guy, we trust you. We send our son there because of you and I, all this stuff. And I'm, like, convincing him and them to send him to play, you know, paint. And Randall Falker, too. So Randall Falker is in that same class coming in.

Right. And, you know, so what's crazy is if I, you know, and you know this happens. I could have snaked him in the prep school. and they try to get him at Oldmore, you know, a year later. But, you know, telling him to do what's right, that's where you're committed to. Now I get a coach him for three years on a comeback, which I had no idea what happened so fast. Yeah, so then you take over, and you guys were immediately successful, right? I mean, the first year, I think you guys won the league the first year.

We won the league, yeah, and we ended up playing your old head coach in the second round in Oklahoma City. year after the final four. And they returned like four starters from the team that lost the national championship game. Yeah. And then they lost to what, Arizona the next game? They lost to Arizona. And then Arizona lost Illinois. Correct.

Right? And you had left that and that team goes on to play for the national championship. All right. How different is it when you're a head coach? Like when, do you remember what it was like to first like, oh, wait, I got the big chair. This is, how different is it for you? Well, it was different because I remember it was an exhibition game, and a longtime assistant there, Rodney Watson,

the head coach is Southern University of the Southerty and D2 Powerhouse now. He was an assistant when I played, and he was an assistant with me for Coach Weber and me, him and Matt Painter, and then he was my top assistant when I was there as my first four years as head coach, then he goes on to be a head coach himself. And I'm just sitting there. You know, as an assistant coach, Doug, you know, you complain about shit on the bench. And we should be making these judges.

We should be doing this. And I was sitting down the first five minutes. And I remember him to have to have to say, hey, you might want to stand up. It's your team. I had no idea. I was still like, I was an assistant. Like, you know, talking to that, you know, those guys like, what the hell are we doing? We need to make a justice.

We got to make some subs. And he was like, you might want to stand up. Like, it's your team. Okay. So, honest question. Why did it, how did it fall apart? Like, you guys had it rolling. And the first year, the first year that you guys, you know, weren't dominant was Falker's senior year.

Brian Mullins, who's like, you know, all-time, like, legend at Southern Illinois, right? Like, he was a junior. So you had upper classmen. What were the cracks in the foundation of what you were doing? Well, it was injuries. We were on the bubble that year. Brian Mullins missed a lot. He's stress fracture.

Cost us to NCAA tournament that year. Randall Falker, we still, we went to the second round of NIT. We beat Oklahoma State in the first round, and then we lost at Arizona State to James Harden, which was, you know, so the next year we're gearing up. Brian Mons, we have the best recruiting class in school history coming in. With Brian Mullen, we get a transfer from Iowa, who we think is going to be a really good player for us,

and then Brian Mullen goes down again, misses the rest of the year. So we have all these new guys in the program and the foundation of our program is out. And that started to decline because the guy who was selling our system, our history, our program was teaching these guys the right way. It became the other way. The young guys were the majority, were the majority and the older guys were the minority.

And we took kids, and I'll be honest, Doug, we got ranked kids for the first time in school history, but those weren't kids I could coach. And as a young coach, learning who you can coach and who you can't, that's something you don't think about because we had this thing built with these type of kids, and I let them go to other schools in our league

and become great players. And people would say, man, that's a carbonyl kid. Why didn't we take him? And we had the opportunity, and I didn't take that Carbonell kid because I was to get into a different household now. I can get into a different realm. And that's the whole story to like, that's what happened to Oklahoma State, right? They go to a Final Four.

I don't know if you remember, they had a class like eight kids. And I think one of them ended up like on campus ever. Georgia Tech, that same year, they went to, they went to the national championship game after beating Oklahoma State in the semifinals. And they have ridiculous recruiting class. That ultimately led to him losing his job. I mean, even Villanova, if you remember, the first time they went to the Final Four when they played four guards, they had the best recruiting class in the country. And he won 13 games.

This is like eight years ago or seven years ago with the highest touted recruits he'd ever had. So I guess here's the question. How do you have this power? All of a sudden, you guys are rolling. You're the best team in the Missouri Valley. How do you determine who's a kid you can coach when you always wanted to get the most talented kids in the gym? Like there's a talent and character. You do need talent, but you also need character.

If you could teach somebody how you evaluate correctly for your program, what would it be? Well, I think the biggest thing is that, and, you know, if you listen to old coaches, they'll tell you, they'll say stuff like this. Talent sometimes taints you. Talent will taint you into thinking you can change people. And, you know, it got to us. We was like, man, that kid is so good. And we used to always kid and say, hey, man, you know, that's a headband team. kid.

You know, back in the day, that's a headband. And now of a sudden, I got a couple headband kids in my team. And I'm just like, oh, shit. Like, this is not who we are. This is not. And the guy who told me this. And I love him. Dave Tell him, goes, Chris.

And he said it to me, to my face at Nike, he goes, I know, I know that kid is good, but he can't play for you. And I just said, and I said, David, I think I can change him. I think I can, you know, I think, I mean, I think I could really change that kid. And I'm not going to mention names or anything like that, but Dave was right. And he tells me all that. Every time I see him, being coach went to watch him practice. He's with the Spurs now.

You know, we went to watch the, you know, Spurs the first couple days of practice. And Dave, every time he sees him, he goes, Chris, I wish I wasn't right. I wish I wasn't right on those kids that you. And it's the, it's a learning. process, but the good thing about it is that you go through that and you learn it and you learn what type of kid you can be successful coaching, ranked or unranked. You learn that sometimes kids, you know, and it's old quote, good people are found, not changed.

You just got to look harder for the type of kid you want. Okay, so there was three bad years in a row, right? 13 and 18, 15 and 15 and 15 and 13, 19. What do you remember about losing your job? I remember, you know, it was one of those things where I got a big family in Evansville's, you know, throughout from St. Louis, and there was being rumors. And, you know, my family just came and supported, like, big time. Some of my former teammates were all there.

You know, it was one of those deals where we lost and, and I go to my room and I get the call, hey, I'm letting you go. and I just remember my family just hugging. It's one of those deals with like Surreels. I never was not good at anything. You know, I've come from these unbelievable teams in grade school, middle school, or never lost games,

until I got to high school and all this stuff, play with these guys and NBA and, you know, so much attention to our teams because of the people that were on and were getting recruited at such a high level. And now of a sudden, I'm 30-something years old, and I failed. You know, that was the hardest thing

because I had a bunch of opportunities to leave in Illinois, but the whole thing is I wanted to show I wanted to make it a destination job, and I know that's kind of weird to say that, but at the time, you look at Butler,

you get Zaga, you look at, you look at Xavier, those are jobs, and you're like, damn, people, you know, those are jobs you can retire from. But the one thing that I did take in the context, none of those have football. And when you win, at a high level, they can continuously fund your program and make your basketball program

that much more stronger with those runs we were going. We went six years in a row in the NCAA tournament, Doug, and most of them don't know. We only won the conference tournament one year out of that six years. So we were getting at-larges as a mid-major those six straight years, those five out of those six years. And what's funny is by the time you finally got the arena done, right? Like the arena finally gets redone. by then it was almost, it was almost too late, you know?

It was too late, yeah. We weren't. We weren't as good. Okay. You talked a little about, about Kahari, your late son, and, like, for anybody who knows you, coaches always talk about family, but you and Erica, you're like an amazing kind of team. How did you manage that, a son who, I remember when I first started covering you when you had a role in it southern, how you're, you know, you're bouncing back between going to St. Louis

where he was in the hospital at times and coaching coaching your team. And then you have your own team to worry about in a town where you know, it's a college town, you can get into some stuff. And then you have the rest of you, you have your other kids. Your three other children. How did you guys manage that and

manage your coaching career through the ups and the downs? I have no idea. I mean, it's all her. Spot in heaven for her. You know, she just and she'd never complain. And I've just, you know, we think about it now because we just got one, the little one, Our youngest, she's 13.

She's only one. She's only one at home. And we just think about how in the world did we, we, but we took them everywhere. Everywhere I went, they went. We never, you know, whenever we had a chance, look at the last time, we went to, why you were over there when we played the tournament, you know, I just, they just go everywhere with me. We never made it like I have a disabled son and we're ashamed of it, and we can't take him

anywhere. That kid put his foot in peat in more tropical water than most humans, because he went vacation every year with him. We picked somewhere, you know, where it was a new experience for our kids, but for him, too. This game is unforgiving. I've missed so many things with my children because of recruiting, because of games. And you know, you're a coach's son. You know there's things that you were growing up. You're like, shit, I wish my dad could see me get 30. You know what I mean? It's like, but, you know, you don't understand it until you're a grown-up and you realize it's for a reason.

You know, and, you know, for our kids, they didn't understand now then, but they do now. With my son, I missed his first seven birthday, CJ, my oldest son, because it was in the April recruiting period, and we had to be out. It was so important that you be out on the sidelines. You know, then they changed the rule, and they changed the date to some of the recruit in April,

and then I could be at my son's birthday parties. He's already eight years old, you know, and the most important ones that already passed. No, I mean, listen, my son was born the first day of the NCAA tournament. I actually worked at ESPN that night, and I never forget. I was really upset at CBS, and it was a little bit out of their control because Turner makes some of the calls as well, but this is going back, I'm going to say four or five years ago, there was the San Diego Regional, and I was living at the time, and I was like, hey, listen,

I don't care who's playing. Like, I know Duke's not going to be out there, so that's going to be Jim Nance and Bill Raftery. Like, let me just go to San Diego. That way I can be home on his birthday. And they're like, got it, got it. And they put Oklahoma State in that regional. They're like, yeah, we don't really feel you comfortable with you, you know,

covering Oklahoma State. I was like, well, I didn't play for Travis Ford. And so they put me in a regional in Spokane, Washington, where I'm covering Oklahoma. And I was like, you do understand. It's the same thing. They're like, what do you mean? I was like, well, the same small portion of people who think that

I'm pro Oklahoma State are going to think I'm anti-Oklahoma. Neither, of course, is true. Like, Longchard played for my dad at Kansas State, you know, on the freshman team back in the day. But that's, anyway, so I, my brother's a March birthday, March 3rd. My dad, he would, that was back old school, he'd be recruiting then. Like, he never, it wasn't until maybe high, until he lost his job in, in the mid-80s. And even then he wasn't usually home. So it's, it's, okay, so you do have its tendency to talk like you're some old man.

I know you've been in this business since, you know, since you know, since you, you left, but you're only 46. Like, you're not yet 50. You've been a head coach. You coached the NCAA tournament. Now you've led to, like, help Bruce's resurrection. You guys got a chance to win the Big 12. Be the team that, you know, dethrones, Kansas.

You went to the lead eight last year. Okay, so you, I mean, you're sitting there. You're like, all right, I'm, I could, do you want to go do it again? Like, what's, what is, I mean, obviously, I'm sure you want to be a head coach again, but what is the, what's the realistic plan in the near future? Well, I mean, obviously, you know, I mean, I love coaching. You love coaching, and you do this to be a head coach.

Everybody who gets in and says, I just want to, you know, they're lying to you. You always want to have your own program. You always want to have your own way of doing things. And absolutely, I love it. And then think about it, and it's so unique. Coach Weber used to always, like, he would joke with me and Matt, but he was telling the truth. He would say stuff like, you two guys, you know,

you're, within two years, you both left me and you guys are head coaches. I had to spend 18 years with Coach Katie. He goes that I was turned down for every job in the Midwest. And, you know, because of how times have changed, people taking chances on younger guys with jobs. It changed that quick. And me and paint, we're gone with them from coach within two years of us being together, you know, and getting it going at Southern Illinois and then becoming apart in Illinois. And then now coach him going to Purdue.

and me going back to Southern Illinois. And, you know, that's the beauty of being in a family, too. And you know that. I remember we were in shooting around NCAA tournament, Coach Sutton comes over to me. He goes, young man, you know you're part of my family, don't you? And I'm like, absolutely. And just that little bit of stuff, that makes your day, man. Because that's a living legend for him to recognize and know that you were from Bruce.

And Bruce is on Coach Katie, Coach Katie's on him. Like, that stuff is like, if you're a basketball, shit like that drives you. It gets you excited. What would it mean for Bruce to be the team that takes down Kansas, especially considering, like, let's just be real. He followed Bill at Illinois. That's a tough guy to follow.

He's been, you know, two hours down the road at K State while they've been on this unbelievable run. Like, what would it mean to Bruce, to your guy's program? It's one thing to see somebody else win the league, but to be, for K-State to do it, what would it mean? Well, it would mean a lot. And you know what's so funny, Doug? The whole K-State, Kansas stuff is so similar to Indiana-Purdue.

You know, you had this legendary behemoth of a coach in Bob Knight, and you had another guy who was a big-time coaching coach, Katie. You know, now it's the same thing. You've got this legendary guy at Kansas. You've got a really good coach here at Kansas State. And, Doug, we tied him in 2013, and it's not even on the books. even knows that. You know what I mean?

I'm just being serious. If we tie, and that's the, and the thing is, if somebody ties them again, it'll be just like they won it again. So it'll never be known. In two years, it'll be the continued, they're 15, 16, 17 in a row, you have to beat them. And it'll mean, so it'll be a great thing. It'll be great for college basketball.

It'll be great for our league. It'll be great for our fan base, you know. and ultimately, you know, Bill can coach, and he gets good players, and he makes great, timely, you know, decisions within games, and he pushes the right buttons. And so for what to happen for Kansas State and the same state would be a huge deal. Well, look, as you know, I consider you not only a friend, but part of that, we're all part of that kind of same Eddie Sutton basketball family.

I cannot tell you how happy I am for your guy's success, because I know you guys do it the right way. And it's not, ask any coach, it ain't easy to do it the right way. And whether it's a Kansas State or it's Southern or when you're in Illinois, whatever, I really appreciate you catching up with us and telling us kind of about your journey. I appreciate it, man. You know, my wife told me tell you hello, she loves you. I mean, I don't know people who used to shoot half-course shots with us at Southern Illinois,

you know, pre-game and just have fun. That's how we used to, you know, start the day. And as far as getting ready to play, you know, jump in the half-quish. You remember the pajama game? Remember a pajama game against Hawaii? Midnight, midnight start time. That's right. ESPN 2.

That's right. Hey, man, thanks so much of your time. I know you're busy. I appreciate it. Appreciate it, Doug. Thank you. All right, that's it for this week's edition of All Ball. My special thanks go out to Chris Lowry for all his time.

Appreciate all your comments, all your questions. Remember to listen to my radio show. 3 to 6 Eastern, 12 to 3 Pacific. It's called the Doug Gottlieb show. In the meantime, download, subscribe, rate, share it with a friend. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is all bald. When you're ready to place a bet on today's games, do it with the most trusted name in online sports betting,

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