The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Gottlieb - All Ball - Warriors still better with KD; Zion/Pelicans thoughts; Guest - Big 3 #1 Pick Royce White on mental health, flying, battling the NBA

Episode Date: May 16, 2019

Subscribe here to the All Ball with Doug Gottlieb Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2.  This week, Gottlieb talks with former NBA 1st rounder, and current Big 3 player, Royce White on his background, mental health, expectations for the Big 3, MMA aspirations, the misconceptions about about him, his fear of flying, how the NBA mishandled his situation, and his expectations for the upcoming Big 3 season, and why he took offense to Gottlieb's Tweet that started their online argument. He also explains why the Warriors are still better with KD, despite rolling without him, and if Zion will be wasted in New Orleans. Subscribe here to get the latest All Ball Podcasts and listen to The Doug Gottlieb Show,  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. What up? I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is All Ball, All Basketball podcast all the time. Royce White is our guest this week. Royce, of course, is former number 16 pick in the NBA draft, and he only played three NBA games in his career. And there's a lot to get to. There's a lot to unpack with Royce.

The interview you're going to hear, I would tell you, I'll set it up by saying this. Look, I think that one of the things we've been able to do for the most part, this podcast is introduce you to basketball people and tell basketball stories. And for whatever reason, I couldn't do that with Royce. We just couldn't kind of crack the code. And maybe it's because he's only 28. and once you get to be in 38, you take a breath and you're like, yeah, you know, this is what happened. And he's still in the kind of defensive, defiant, everybody else is wrong and I'm right sort of phase.

It doesn't mean that there's not a lot of right to some of his stances that he's taken. But you're not the only, you're not always right. And it's not 100% you. So I'll set it up. There's a couple other things. And I want to get to the NBA draft. I give you a couple thoughts on a couple of players, the NBA playoffs,

what we saw from Houston and Golden State, and the Embed crying and the Ben Simmons, the people bailing on Ben Simmons left and right. Let's say this about Royce. I've always found him to be overly articulate, right? Like, he's really smart, and we're going to get into the idea that he's too smart for his own good.

but it's interesting. I couldn't even get him to the point where I could kind of explain, hey, I understand that you had it all worked out where you didn't have to fly all the time and you could drive or have a driver take you to games in the NBA. But there's this thing about working and about having a job. Some jobs you have, they don't care. I don't care how you get there. just be there at this particular time

and be ready to go and we don't care. But that's not the way everybody operates. And the bigger the job, the more, you know, they don't, like he was a rookie into the NBA. And frankly, I don't blame the Houston Rockets for going like, you know, it's not that he's a bad guy. It's just a pain in the ass to have, okay, where's Royce, how is he going to be there?

What time's he going to be there? How is the travel? Will he be there for shoot around? will he be there for practice? Like, it just, it becomes too much. It becomes too much. I understand this because, look, I've had that in my career. I'll liken it.

When I was at CBS, I was doing a radio show, I was doing a TV show at night, and I was doing college basketball. And my whole thing was like, look, put me on any game. I'll fly out, red eye, I'll get there, I'll do it. It'll be great. And there, and part of it is how CBS was wired, which is like, look, do we had to find a radio studio and then do you do in the TV and are you going to miss the production meeting for the basketball? It just becomes where it's like it's a lot where or we could just go and get somebody to do the game where they're just going to come in and do the game and then they're going to go home and we don't have to worry about a couple of other calls.

And I'm not saying it makes the NBA or the Rockets right and Royce wrong. No, Royce, like, if you show up for every practice and every game and you're ready to go, I don't personally care. But when you're a rookie, they do care. You haven't earned the right to dictate your terms as to travel. The same thing is true in television and radio. Like, they just sometimes, some places don't want to go through extra hoops when they don't have to. They just want easy. The production is relatively the same.

They just want easy. And as you'll listen to with the Royce interview, it's not easy. And there was never a point where I felt like he said, you know, I was wrong in this example. I should have done this differently. And that's just you get to a certain point in your life when you start to realize whether at the time you realized it or not, sometimes you are wrong or sometimes you're not 100% right. And sometimes you have to see things from somebody else's perspective. Here's my discussion with Royce White, the now MMA fighter and member of a team in the big three.

Royce, thanks so much for joining us. A bunch of things to get into, and the great thing about the pod is we got plenty of time. Okay, you're getting ready to play in the big three, but you're also a mixed martial artist. I want to get, kind of dive, go all the way back and talk about growing up in Minneapolis and everything that's taking place. but are you a, how can you do both, right? Can you be a mixed martial artist and a basketball player still? I don't know how to really answer it. I mean, I think athletes are just pigeonholes with their athletic ability based on the, you know,

the framework of the brokerage at the professional level. And it trickles all the way down to the way that athletes, developed. I know that for me playing basketball at a very high level in high school kind of, you know, predisposed me to kind of, you know, kind of have a tunnel vision for basketball and

you know, things like football and baseball even became an afterthought, although I should have been able, I should have continued to play those sports and would have been successful at those sports too. And it's not all the question that I explore the football option as well in my, you know,

in my near future. So I think, you know, just a lot of athletes, you know, have a lot of self-doubt based on the way that they develop their athletes. I don't know if it's, I mean, I don't think at this level it's self-doubt. Like, I think it's out of respect for, like, mixed martial artists. Some of those guys are, you know, champion wrestlers. Others have been, have been, you know, doing Brazilian jiu-jitsu for 20 years. There's a level of technique to it. Some of them haven't, though.

I understand, but like hoop takes, and I do, I understand this being a former hooper is, we all think that hoop takes 24 hours, like, it doesn't. You know, you get in, if you do your work right, you know, you can work out even twice a day and be done in a couple hours. And so you do have other time in your day. But I'm just wondering about how you parse your time in terms of mixed martial arts and playing basketball. Yeah, I train mixed martial arts in the morning and I train basketball in night. Pretty simple, actually.

Huh. I would guess that the big three is so physical that you'll thrive. Like, that's one of those things. And so much of physicality in basketball, one, like kind of you're made for it with your body type and your, and your use of your legs. But the use of leverage. Yeah, that's a fair point there just in, but that's a fair point to bring up just in terms of athletes that can transition. and there's a few baseline mentalities, body types, attributes that transition well in other sports.

And I happen to be fortunate enough to be a heavyweight and not to say that the heavyweight division is, you know, a cakewalk, but it certainly is the tennis division just by, you know, number of athletic heavy weights in the world. I mean, there's just not many heavy weights. the, you know, heavyweight is the finish division. And, you know, the same could be said for me playing tight in. I mean, how many guys that, you know, are 6-8-270 to track the, you know, are trained and tracking the ball and big hands, you know, lateral movement, mobility. You know, it's just some people can transition in other sports and some can.

And then some probably could and just don't have the, you know, the confidence to do so. Like I said, there's an epidemic of self-doubt. It goes far beyond sports. I'm not afflicting with it. I honestly, that would be probably what afflicted me when I was at Oklahoma State when I went to became a guy who could make a shot because I didn't think I could make a shot. And it's really hard. And I think it's interesting now in raising my own son as a young athlete. It's like you don't want to gas them up and do the participation trophy and tell them that everything is great every time.

On the other hand, you also don't want to kill their, their confidence because you know as an athlete how hard it is to get back if if possible at all once you lose once you once doubt takes over like it doesn't really matter what you do in training because you're not going to you're not going to be able to get get out of your own way absolutely i mean i think as a greater societal uh conversation or a point um you know the the participation overkill was definitely an issue but i think it's a racket one of many rackets that we see that we we burn on both ends, the, burn the candle on both ends, you could say by telling young people that, you know, at some point in America, it's

every man for himself, but then again, you know, pigeonhole yourself or, you know, stay within these lines or have these preconceived notions about what your abilities are, what you're capable of, be realistic, so to speak. It's just, it's just so un-American, in my opinion, of what being American is. It's like, you know, you're not, you're not leading somebody down the wrong path to really tell them and instilling them that they can do whatever they set their mind to. And it's just strange that in certain places we accept that notion that you can put, you can do whatever you put your mind to, and then some, we just completely shut that door. And for some people, it's just a strange contradictions. And you think it's just one of many,

you know, that we, that we practice in our culture. All right, let's go back to the start. You grew up in, you grew up in St. Paul, not in Minneapolis. Like, I know it kind of becomes one of the same to many people outside of the Twin Cities, but was St. Paul where you actually grew up? Yes, I was actually born in St. Paul. I grew up in the Rondo community, which, you know, Minnesota's, Twin Ties natives are familiar with.

It's basically one of the oldest communities, you know, Stonestone from the Capitol. But, you know, like I grew up in the Twin City, so I could really say with confidence that I grew up in the Twin Cities metro area in a variety of places. My mom moved around. She was a single mother. We rented. So I grew up in different parts of the city, and I played basketball and sports in different parts of the city. And I had a huge family and relatives that also lived in different portions of the city. So having a single mom, I would spend time with them on the weekends or when she had to work.

and, you know, I developed relationships with kids and multiple neighborhoods, and that was good for me. I was able to see a very diverse, I had a very diverse cultural upbringing. Minnesota was already diverse, but I hadn't even further diverse up bringing, given, you know, just my situation at a child. So I was unfortunate for that, and I'm very grateful for that. Who'd you grew up playing with? Who was like, because there have been some really good AAU teams out of Minnesota,

who is your squad when you're coming up? I played at the Martin Luther King Center first. I also played in South St. Paul at a point in time. Then I played for the Minneapolis Hustlers, which all the, you know, all the best players and most of the best players in Minnesota history have come out of, barring, you know, magic gold in the program that they have. But, you know, it's kind of us and them.

And, you know, after that, I play with Howard Foley, obviously. And, you know, they are the gold standard. Who was in your Howard Polly team? Do you remember? Who was on my Howard Polly team? Yeah. I had Jordan Taylor, Jared Bergrand, both went on to play in Wisconsin, Rodney Williams, played with me as well, Marcus Williams,

who should have kept playing basketball. Another athlete that definitely continued to play basketball, but, you know, can't argue with them going to the NFL and one in three national championships out there at NBSU. We also had Carrington Tankston, who many won't know, but was a bona fide score. And, you know, Chantrell-Henison also went on to play in the NFL. Mike Fitzgerald, you know, some pretty high-level guys also play with Bear. Angelo Johnson, who was at USC, and is a really good player that some people may not know,

but us basketball players know that he's probably one of the best to ever do it. So I was fortunate to come up with Mike Broughhammer, sorry, him as well. I was fortunate to play with some really good guys. You started your career at De LaSalle, which is a Catholic school, and you started and you played as a freshman like you were successful. And why did you end up at Hopkins where you had kind of that unbelievable run your senior year? Why switch schools? Yeah, well, I got dismissed for academic misconduct.

You know, a teammate and I were helping each other out on a history test, and I just didn't, you know, they gave me the option to come back at the start of the next year. I thought it was a ridiculous concept. Like, you know, if you're kicking me out, then I'm out. And, yeah, went on transfer to Hopkins, and, you know, we went undefeated. And then you went to the U, You went to University of Minnesota And you played and you were supposed to play for Tubby, right?

But a lot of A lot of players from Minneapolis They turned down And this was one of the things I talked about And anybody who's ever been on staff there They're like There's four or five You know

Really good players always in Minnesota per year And there's two or three that you feel like you have to get And if you get them You got a chance to be really special. Obviously, the Jones boys are a couple examples, but there are so many others. Okay, so what was it like? What was Tubby like when he recruited you? Oh, man, I got nothing but respect for Tubby. You know, when Dan Munson was still here at the University of Minnesota, they recruited me early, and I had a great relationship with the University

of Minnesota, former athletes from the University of Minnesota, basketball players, and otherwise, that worked at the university. My great-great-uncle, Alfred Ari, was the dean of the dentistry school back at 1930. He revolutionized dental care for not only Minnesota, but America and pretty much the world. So I'm connected with the university. And, you know, Tubby coming was a surprise. I mean, we didn't know that. I had no clue about that in my recruitment, obviously, and when he got here, it was just a bonus. I was going to the University of Minnesota anyway out of loyalty. So him coming was a great thing, and I developed a relationship with him quick,

and I think he was a fantastic coach. Me and him had nothing but respect for each other, had a good time, had a good relationship and practice on the court, off the court. We had great conversations. Wish I was able to play for him. I think it would have changed the trajectory of his career as a coach from the Minnesota aspect and it would have changed the trajectory

of the university as well. I would agree. I mean, it's interesting. You got in trouble and then, God, who transferred to Oregon? Who was a point guard who transferred? Yeah, well, just don't ship over that I got in trouble, though. I'm not going to skip over it,

but I do think it's interesting. It's interesting. So Justin Cobbs transferred and played from, my brother was at Cal. So you had, they had three point, we had three point guards, right? We had DeVron Bostic, we had DeVote Joseph, who is, you know, in my opinion. Oh, Devote, listen, so hold on, so.

No question. So here's how, in my, when I try and explain to people, like, like, I, there's, Jeff Goodman's like, well, Tubby didn't recruit, like, hold on now, dude. He had Royce White. He had DeVoe Joseph and Justin Cobb. Justin Cobb and DeVoe Joseph both leave. Royce gets kicked off. kicked out of school.

And now all this thing you get out, Al-No one. Al-Nohan, well, hold on. We'll get to the, well, hold on. We'll get to, Royce, we'll get to you. Well, you have plenty of time to explain. I'm trying to explain what happened to Minnesota basketball. Well, I mean, just don't mention that.

Don't just mention that quickly. I'm not, look, I'm not, I'm not, I'm, listen, you don't have to be defensive. I'm, but get plenty of time to talk about it. I'm not being defensive. I mean, people just soundbite things and clip things and, you know, no, that's not the way this. That's not the way this works. This is a, this works.

pod, we go through the whole thing. We'll explain. No, no, I mean, I mean, I mean, posterior people, people do that, that may not even be involved with the podcast. So that's why we have to be careful with what we say in real time,

regardless of whether it's listening back to in full form or in minutes or sound bites. But go ahead. That's fair. It's fair enough. My point is, so you have. He recruited.

He recruited well. Right, but not just that, but like, look, you can't, if you don't have a point guard, you ain't going to win anything. And the way I remember it, I can't remember. So Al Nolan was last.

was left as a point guard. One year he got suspended for grades and one year he got hurt and didn't have him in the Big Ten, I think either of those two years. And then two other legit big time point guards, Justin Cobbs at Cal and DeVoe Joseph's at Oregon. And he both had both of them. And then you're essentially a point power forward like three outstanding, essentially guys that can handle the basketball all left.

And then your point guard that you're left with when you got hurt, when you got suspended. That's going to make anybody look like they don't know. what they're doing if you lose your point cards. That was my point. You just took me a while to get to my point because you're worrying about how I say what I say. No, yeah, well, it's important. It's important. Okay.

Getting kicked out of school for an athlete is a big deal, although I didn't get kicked out of school, but just that whole thing is a really big deal. It's a really big deal, and not to be mentioned, I think, in sequence with the whims of the recruiting process and who played or didn't play for whatever other benign reasons. and it may have been like graves or whatnot, getting kicked out of school, I think you would agree is a significant mentioning there. Yeah, no, no question. I mean, like, look, and I don't know how much you know about my background.

I defend myself often when people say, well, you got kicked out of Notre Dame. I didn't. I probably would have been had I been allowed to come back and face the student board or whatever, the Ethics Board at Notre Dame. I was one of those deals where I stole credit cards and used them. and they found out and you know I said hey I'll be suspended I'll sit out whatever I need to I'll pay restitution and there's three kids and two of them were like okay and one of them was like not okay and so I wouldn't have I probably wouldn't have I wouldn't have the honor it's like you think it's an honor code board or whatever and so people are like well you got kicked out of Notre Dame like no I left Notre Dame and but I I would have liked to fought it but it wasn't really necessarily an option All right, let's go through, and we don't have to go through every certain detail unless you want to. My situation was pretty, pretty simple.

I got into an incident at the Mall of America. I was with a group of friends, and there were some items that were allegedly taken. And one of the, you know, one of the lost prevention guys, you know, trailed me into the parking lot. I was out in a group of friends was leaving the mall, and he got kind of physical with me. You know, he ran up behind me, grabbed me by the neck, and I flipped him over. And, you know, he wasn't small. He wasn't big. Then he was 6-8-250 at the time I was.

But, you know, he was probably like 6-263, 2-20, maybe. You know, and he popped on my neck and grabbed me. And I just flipped him, and, you know, one of the ladies that was coming out with him saw that and, you know, call the police. And they swarmed with, like, eight cars. And, you know, it was this huge ordeal. and I was just like, hey, I wasn't feeling anything. This guy, you know, thought that I was. I was with a group of friends.

Can't speak on them, won't speak on them. And he decided that he was going to take, you know, physical action. And, you know, it's just fair game then at that point, in my opinion. I wasn't going to let him choke me out or anything like that. Of course, you know, not going to play that game. But so anyway, so that situation took place. I just, you know, played guilty of a misdemeanor because I'm not interested. saying, oh, this guy or that guy or, you know, speaking on my friend, I don't do that.

So, you know, I played guilty of that because it was a misdemeanor anyway, and I wasn't even, I think I was suspended for maybe a game from that incident. Now, a couple weeks later, maybe like, maybe even four weeks later, I was on campus, you know, we were hanging out, it's a weekend, we're freshmen, I'm from the city, all kinds of people are coming down to the campus and hang out, we're having a great time. and there was a laptop stolen from a girl's dorm room. Now, when the police came to ask this girl, you know, a question her about, you know, what the night had,

how the night had transpired, they specifically asked her who was in the dorm room, who was here that doesn't live here. And she listed a number of people, but she was like, well, I don't know everybody who wasn't here by name, but Royce and a group of his friends were here, and they don't live here. So in that case, I became a possible suspect. And that's what I had stayed. That was my status throughout the remainder of the investigation was a possible suspect.

Although her and her parents made sure that they reached out to me once they were staying with public and said, listen, we did not tell the police that we had any, you know, that we thought in any way that you were involved with the stealing of this laptop, that was something that they wanted to or that, you know, that they took into their own hand. And so basically what happened from there is that the investigation went on for five or six months. They just carried the investigation on because, well, two things. The athletic department made the mistake that many universities make, and they, you know, preemptively suspend you from the team and you're guilty until proven innocent when it should be the other way around. And so, you know, the police department kind of knew that as long as they held the case out, then I wouldn't be able to participate.

And, you know, the girl's laptop actually was returned to her over that weekend, and I surely didn't return it to her. So that kind of was good evidence that the case should have been thrown out in terms of my involvement in the investigation, but it wasn't. So at the end of that entire investigation, when they came back and finally just charged me with trespassing, it was pretty clear that it was time for me to go. And, you know, there's more details in there that I'll say, you know, and talk about at another, you know, point.

it has to do with the city of Minneapolis, some of the people that I hung out with, some of the things that were going on on campus, and downtown Minneapolis as well in terms of like, you know, for just a teeny example, the nightclub that decided to not let

any guys under 21 in, but they were letting girls under 21 in. So all of the under 21 guys needed a new place to hang out so they came down to the campus in trolls. I mean, there were thousands of people hanging out on the campus at nighttime during the weekend and on the weekends for sure.

And, you know, fights for breaking out sometimes and things like that. Nothing too crazy. Nobody got shot or stabbed or anything like that that I recall. But it was kind of just all attributed to me being there. You know, like, well, Royce is from here. These are his friends. And it's just patent racism. It's like, yeah, I know some of these people.

I grew up in this city. I've been there for 18 years before I ever made it to be a University of Minnesota athlete. and yeah, I know them, but they're not my crew. You know what I mean? So, I mean, at the end of the day, you know, Tubby wanted me to come back to the team the following year. And Joe Maturi after, you know, he had, he had been clear that he had made a probably bad decision.

You know, they were totally all for me, you know, rejoining the team after the investigation and going on into the next season and, you know, gearing up. And at that point, I just didn't trust the police department. I didn't trust that if another accusation, was thrown my way, I wouldn't automatically be suspended or kicked off the team again. So I decided to move on. Okay, so this is an honest question, okay?

Because anybody who knows you, knows you're bright, okay? And you can kind of explain a bunch of different things. And because I wasn't there, well, I don't know. But to the common dude who goes out and goes like, wait a second, you got caught cheating on a test in high school. school so you had to leave de la salle and then then there's the mall thing then there's this thing uh the the laptop accusation that went away that nothing ever came of it uh then there's the talk then there's this accusations of your you know you're bringing your crew even though it's not your crew to campus and it's causing a ruckus like i don't understand i don't understand

uh why the multiple things right like Yeah, well, because the microscope is the biggest on the best, maybe the best basketball player to ever play in the state of Minnesota, maybe just probably. I mean, you know, there's a sense of gravity that swirls around certain individuals in our societal structure. There's no doubt about that. I don't think that's a stretch or reach in any means. As a matter of fact, I think it's a pretty simple concept, and we see it, you know, every day in our media. I mean, you know, for Christ's sakes, I can't send a TV on without people talking about Donald Trump before he was elected. So there's certain people that have a gravity given on, you know, their personality, time, place, circumstance, you know, environment and, and whatever else.

And, you know, I didn't need to just throw his name out there, but, you know, there's multiple people that you could use. I, I had used the number four prospects. I don't think that. Hold on one second. I don't think they're linear. I don't think you can, first of all, cheating on a test is like. like the most common thing in high school. And maybe people are trying to rate me over the calls for that. But I know a lot of high school kids, and I would never say their names because, again, I don't do that. I'll show, I'll show you my best, listen.

I'll show you my best cheating story. Hold on. I have a good one for you. And for good reason that the entire curriculum for school systems is under fire and in question. And, you know, a good honest, a good honest, I think, point for a good honest. thing that could come from that conversation about where education needs to go is the fact that a lot of people are cheating on their schoolwork and, you know, what is that telling us? So I'm not saying that that excuses me for cheating, but it's just like, I don't think you can

make the walk from that to then infer implicate that there's some type of dishonest characteristic that's nestled within my, my, you know, my personality that you can then say, well, okay, well, then is he doing this, or was he still in the laptop? It's like, no, I didn't steal a laptop. They know I didn't. She knew I didn't. The police know I didn't. The Mall America incident was its own thing, and I decided not to speak on anybody else

because that's how, that's the code I live by. And the kids coming to campus were some of my friends, and some of them were my friends. And some of them weren't. I mean, friend is a very, is a very interesting term when you're talking about a place where you grew up since childhood, and the people that I knew, people that I may have been friends with before that I'd fallen out of touch with. And then there were people that were with me every day that were with me on a daily basis or a weekly basis in that time.

So, you know, friend is a loose word. I consider some of my friend's family. So, you know, there's a difference between me living on the ground level or, you know, you could say living, you know, boots on the ground and then with the administration and the way that they do and talk about things in their little, you know, their little boardrooms or wherever they have their little, you know, powwows. So you get to Iowa State, okay, which is, it's not crazy far, but like Ames is a crazy difference from growing up in, in the city of Minneapolis. What was that year of what was that year of sitting out?

Like, and essentially this was a second year of sitting out, right? Absolutely, yeah. And so you sit out again, like, what was that like for you? Man, I had a great time. I mean, it was tough on the basketball side because we thought I was going to be able to. to play, but the incident still late to die my waiver, which, uh, which they, a waiver that they give out like candy now. So a lot of people don't know that, um, that our waiver was mental health base. And because of some of the, some of the, some of the actions of the University

Minnesota Police Department, uh, got very nasty and very targeting. Uh, like, for example, I had an investigator tell me, like, we know you stole a laptop and we're going to prove it. You know, we're going to prove it. Like, all right, you, you didn't prove it. So, you know, I'll take an apology. I said that on day one when they called me down to the station, and I still haven't gotten that apology. And then later on, after the investigation was over, I stated that why I left the university was based on a fear of the University of Minnesota Police Department in their, you know, they're, you know. You felt like they were targeting you. That's all. I mean, that's supposed to go to come.

Right. Yeah. But what was said in response to that from a report in one article or, you know, one of the reporters I think of the Star Tribune or maybe the Pioneer Press had asked the chief of police a question about me leaving and what I had said about them. And the chief police responded by, you know, Royce doesn't strike me as a fearful individual. And it's like, like, you know, another patent racism is like, well, he... Jacob Kingston grew up in an ice.

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app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. He's big and black and he doesn't strike me as fearful because he's confident or arrogant or he's articulate or he walks around with an air of surety. It's like, yeah, you shouldn't be a chief of police. Your understanding or your respect for the mental health domain is patently inept. And there's no way that you should be overseeing other police officers. I don't even know if you should be overseen yourself with that type of ignorant mindset.

So when my doctors heard that, they were like, yeah, you probably should get out of here. We understand why you hearing that would make you more anxious about them. And if I was a student there and I had been targeted, I'd be anxious to tell about the police department too. There were three doctors who I saw at the time, one including a team doctor, a family doctor of mine, and then another therapist who I saw for EMDR treatment for anxiety, and all three of them signed a letter and waiver to Mark Emersonville A saying that my transferring was mental health-based. So my fight for the mental health advocacy or mental health rights or mental health respect started

with the incident of lay before I even transferred to Iowa State, and they denied that waiver, and they gave no reason why, which they don't give a reason why, a lot of decisions they make. They're one of the most corrupt shadow groups in the modern society, in my opinion, just in the fact that they don't have to really answer to anybody or give any explanations. But they gave no explanation on that. So I told you that story just to tell you that it was hard from the basketball standpoint to not Iowa State because we really believed that I was going to be able to play.

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Come seek the Royal Caribbean. Visit royal Caribbean.com to learn more. So this does bring us to the anxiety piece, which is very, and, of course, is Mental Health Awareness Month. And so when did you first know or when did somebody first say like, hey man, you might have some anxiety issues going on. Yeah, I mean, it was, I was 16 when I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety. Like how? Like, were you, were you having trouble in school? Was it sleeping?

Like, I have a daughter who has, has. Yeah, sleep and I was mostly having panic attacks. I was having panic attacks from my one and only experience with marijuana. So I was having panic attacks maybe three times a day, four times a day after that. And that kind of, you know, tapered off to like maybe one panic attack a day. And I just, I built up such an accumulation of fatigue from the one panic attack a day that, you know, five, six months later, I walked into the school nurse's office. I was already at Hopkins by this time.

Because I turned 18 in April. I have April birthday, so I was always, you know, late. I was turning the next, you know, year during the school year. or at the end of the school year. And so, yeah, when I was 17, I had been at Hopkins already for a few months, because I went there at the end of my junior year. And I built up such an accumulation of fatigue from the anxiety that I just walked in the nurse's office one day. And we happened to have a school-based mental health system which they disbanded.

It was a federal system that was headed up by SAMHSA in some parts of the country, but we had one independently because Minnesota is just on their shit when it comes to, a lot of things. And I was fortunate to have a family practitioner right there on site at the school that diagnosed me, got me on medication, started a treatment plan, and, you know, really changed my life at that point. So you're at Iowa State. You're sitting out. You haven't played in two years.

You finally get on the court to play for Fred Hoyberg. What was it like? Man, it was a crazy experience. I mean, you know, if you go back all the way to my high school years, I was kind of an underdog or underrated. You know, I felt like Minnesota wasn't on the map yet. On the prep ranking, the newly emerging prep ranking scene, you know, we had had Chris Humphreys who had made it into the top hundred and was, you know, a McDonald-All-American top 20 guy. But other than that, we hadn't really had many.

And that was primarily, in my opinion, because, you know, the prep ranking, you know, sites or that community, that circle, were located on the coast, or maybe down in Texas, maybe some. And so guys just didn't get a chance to get the exposure, even with Howard Pooley going out and doing those tournaments, you know, across the country.

So I was one of the first guys that put us back on the map, me and Rodney as well, put us back on the map in that way, and being a top 25 guy, star recruit. But I still wasn't being covered and wasn't being talked about like what I would become. And even when I went to Minnesota, you know, that kind of helped because it's like, okay, hometown kids staying home.

This is exciting for the program. So the history of the program and where it had been and where it was, where to potentially go, helped some of that exposure or some of that hype around me. But even by the time I got to Minnesota, a lot of the conversation, not only from the media, but from the other coaches were like, the other coaches in the conference were like, we don't know what Iowa State is going to be because we don't know what Royce is going to do. We don't know what Royce can do, to be honest, what they really wanted to say, but we don't know what if they'll be able to play.

And so they picked us to finish in the bottom three of the Big 12, and we end up finishing in the top three. and, you know, five out of six in the games that year. I'm sure you remember, you know, losses by a possession or so. And the Big 12 is always competitive like that, but my point is we could have easily finished, you know, fifth in the conference, you could say, or we could have been number one in the conference

and won the Big 12 conference. So, you know, I'd say the first season was just an underdog story from the jump. And for people who don't remember, you led Iowa State in five statistical categories. It was crazy. And you decided to go to the NBA draft. And it's interesting because I've seen you tweeting about Draymond. And like you were Draymond kind of before Draymond in that you could guard any position. You could handle the basketball.

You could defend in the post. Like there's just, you were like a Swiss army knife of a basketball player. because of your lateral athleticism, your strength, your ball handling, and your passing skills. Yeah. But the flying thing, had that come up when you were at Iowa State? Like, did you fly? What were your issues like there? I'd say I was Draymond at the same time as Draymond.

You know, Draymond, me and Draymond came on the same draft, and Draymond led his team in four statistical category that Michigan State. He just didn't have it. You know, so, I mean, that's very, very close to the same thing. There's start differences between Dremont's game and my game. I think Dremont is more of a hustle player. I'm more of a forceful, finesse, more methodical player offensively. I think that Dremont passed the ball well, and he's shown that he's passed the ball well in a system.

in the system, I pass the ball well in general. You know, and I have a real, I have a real point guard handle. He has a point forward handle. So there's a star differences in my game, but I love Jemont. He's a Midwest kid, and he's tough of his nails, and he plays with passion, and I just absolutely love him. And we went through the entire draft process together, and our individual workouts as well, along with Mike Scott and a few other guys.

So, you know, I always have a soft spot with Jemond. But in terms of the flying piece, you know, it was something that I dealt with even in high school in terms of flying. Like when we were flying with Howard Pooley on the circuit, I didn't like it. It was something that I had just started having to fly frequently right around the time I would have panic attacks. So going into out of town and having panic attacks, not knowing if you're dying or not because that's what panic attacks feel like, kind of gave me a PTSD around traveling in general. On top of the fact that I really don't like heights, and yeah, I'm super uncomfortable 30,000 feet in the air.

Hell, I'm uncomfortable in buildings with the elevator that has more than 30 floors, if I'm being honest. But, you know, I dealt with it when I was in high school, and I dealt with it at Iowa State. I flew to every game nearly except to, I think, Kansas State, in Missouri. But every other game I flew to, Michigan, when we went to Michigan and played in Ann Arbor, I flew there before the conference play.

And, yeah, it was an issue, but it wasn't an issue that kept me from playing, and it wasn't an issue that kept me from playing at a very high level, like in a historic level. I don't think there's many players in the history of the NCAA that led their team in all five stats, and I certainly don't think there's many in the Power Six conference. I know there's not many in the Big 12s. So, yeah, the flying was an issue, but it was never an issue that stopped me from playing at a very high level. Okay, so when did it, when during the, it was during the draft process?

Was it after you were drafted? Like when, when did this happen that, you know, it gets out that, hey, Royce White, he doesn't like flying and that becomes an issue with the Houston Rockets? Yeah, I mean, I talked about, having anxiety and not liking to fly before the draft. I talked about it through the draft process, which the media doesn't get to see and fans don't get to be a part of. But, you know, I talked openly about my anxiety through the draft process.

When I went to my interviews with the team during individual workout, I talked about my anxiety and my fear flying, and everybody was aware of it. It never really became a Royce doesn't like to fly, and now there's an issue. we solved the traveling issue if people would be close enough and go back and really take a fine-to-cone to the media and the sequence of events. The first thing that the U.S. of Rockets wanted to address with the traveling, because that was the issue that everybody was talking about. It was unique that this basketball player doesn't like to fly and how will that affect his career because they fly so much. and, you know, people have short memories, if not so long ago,

that they only took buses in the NBA, for NBA players. I know 30, 40 years seems like a lot, but not to me. I read in 100 years spans. But anyway, so they wanted to address that issue first because it was the one on the table,

and to them that would solve the issue. And what I and the doctors involved told them at the time is, that's not the issue. anxiety isn't just about phobias. His anxiety isn't just about phobias. The treatment of anxiety isn't just the band-dating of a phobia or trying to, you know, navigate around a fear of flying. That's not it.

But they want to do that anyway, which was part of an arrogance that they showed throughout the process of us talking about mental health and that they still show to this day. And what we decided was that I'd be able to drive the games from possible and fly when I had to, and that's a totally reasonable, reasonable plan. I think all the doctors agreed to it. The NBA didn't want to agree to it. They actually threatened the Houston Rockets, from my understanding, with salary-tapping fringement and penalties and fines and whatnot.

And I had to threaten to not play and go to arbitration in that scenario. But Royce, the reality of it is, like, how would it work? Right? Like, let's just be real. How does it? I mean, yeah, I mean, outside of like could like dude

how are you going to travel in the NBA how are you going to travel in the NBA by bus or by private car I understand you could get in your car and you could no no no no no wait a second

wait a second wait a second first of all Doug see you're showing the same level of arrogance that the NBA showed and the same level of flippancy that the fans show on the internet and that's that's just the cultural issue

we'll get to that later hopefully. But what we'll get to right now is how I just told you that a group of professional medical professionals agreed with the plan. I'm not talking about professional medical. I understand. I understand you have anxiety. No, wait.

I'm talking about just the, look, in terms of logistics to it, you're a rookie in the NBA. Well, let's talk logistics. Hold on. First, I wanted to make sure, hold on. First, I wanted to make sure that, that it's understood that from where I stood and where the medical professionals stood, that this was a totally reasonable plan from a medical standpoint.

Now, if we want to go into logistics, then that's a second node that we'll go into, and we can go into that. Logistically, let's not act like the NBA isn't regional-based. All of the teams are regional based. It's a five-hour drive from Minnesota to Chicago. It's an even shorter drive from Chicago to Milwaukee. It's a shorter drive from Milwaukee to Indiana, Indianapolis. It's a shorter drive from Indianapolis to Detroit.

These are all five-hour drive, so it's not impossible. And the East Coast is even closer. If I'm not mistaken, Jay J.J. Redick actually drives from Brooklyn to Philly to Philly to Brooklyn, New York. It's an hour and hour, hour, 15. Hold on. Charlotte. If you play, so let's just take the Houston Rockets.

Let's take the Houston Rockets schedule this year. Now keep in mind. Wait a second. Wait a second. Did you just hear me say San Antonio, Dallas Houston? Yeah, but again, you're not, you're taking it. You're taking out the, Roy, you're taking out the logistics to it. Like, you play a game, and if you play the next day in San Antonio, you think you're going to get in car and drive to the next town after the game like we did.

Like, look, I played, I played on a tour team after. Wait a second. Wait a second. Hold on a tour team after college. Wait a second. Wait a second, Doug. if you have a next day game, if you have a back-to-back, and that would be a situation I would fly to.

And maybe not. If we play, listen, hold on a way to a second. First of all, the drive from San Antonio to Houston is three hours, from Dallas to Houston is three hours. So we got done playing at 10.30 in Dallas and had a game back in Houston, or vice versa. I'd be back in Houston or the other place at 2 o'clock in the morning. and I'd be sleeping in the car on the way there.

I wasn't going to drive myself. I had a bus. I had an RV. So it's not like, come on. You're talking to two or three hours. I mean... Again, like, look, let me just give you an example. Roy, hold on, dude.

Hold on. Let me ask you a question. Yes. Let me ask you a question. Do you think everybody, do you think everybody that gets on that plane after those games on the back-to-back actually go straight to sleep? And what do you think about the quality of sleep on the plane? You're not getting good.

sleep until you get to the hotel anyway. So whether it takes me two hours, an hour, 30 minutes, or three hours, doesn't really matter. The point is that many of the games on the schedule are drivable. There's no doubt about that. It's a very regionally based league location-wise, the east coast, the tri-state area specifically, but also the Midwest and the South. If you go to the West Coast, maybe a little different. But there are tons of games I could have drove to, but the point is that I never said I wouldn't fly or refuse to fly. I asked to be able to drive when I could. The doctors agreed. The NBA had to agree because the doctors agreed, and they didn't want to. And so that was the start of a much bigger policy conversation that through that process,

we uncovered that there really was no concrete language about mental health at all in the collective bargaining agreement. And so what the NBA did out of spite was push the story about the flying so they didn't have to have the conversation about policy. And now you're here talking about the logistics of the flying and driving again, like in terms of, true NBA shield fashion. I'm not an NBA, I'm not an NBA show. I'm looking at the Houston Rockets schedule this year. I just talking about it like a shield would do.

That's what I think. I'm, I'm actually just having a regular conversation because, look, I played, I never forget, I played on a tour team after I got done in Oklahoma State. I was supposed to play overseas. I didn't get my passport for Israeli passport. I go to the CBA. I get cut in the CBA. We played the, remember the old used to play, whether it's athletes in action, EA

sports and you know you play eight games and eight nights and you could you could do it if you were all but like look the rockets played november third they played in chicago the fifth they played in indiana now you could make the easy it's not a crazy drive from chicago to indiana not crazy at all no on the other hand on the other hand on the other hand you like oh wait first they played in brooklyn okay then the next night they played in chicago that's one that you'd have to fly to right then you have a day off, but again, you're a rookie, and are you rolling in, are you rolling in late and missing practice or whatever?

And then they play in Oklahoma City, and then they play in San Antonio, and then they play in Denver, and you have a Cleveland and Washington on back-to-back nights. Oklahoma City to San Antonio is an easy drive. It's not an easy drive. It's drivable. It's not an easy drive.

I've made the drive. It's not easy. But the point, The point, it's an eight-hour drive. So the point is... That's not a hard drive. That's not a hard drive. Royce, like, I'm not arguing with you that it can be done,

but I also understand that they're sitting there going like, this guy's a rookie in the NBA, and hell, we don't know... What does being a rookie you have to do with it? They're not built, and this is probably part of your argument, is they're not built to deal. Wait a second. If the status of your tenure, in a corporation or institution of any sort

affects their respect for medical recommendation, then there's a true undermining and dismissal of the validity of the field of science, number one, but the field of medicine. And that is the fundamental issue here. That's the arrogance that can't be tolerated. No, no, no, no, no, you're looking at this.

No, you're looking at this the wrong way. I've worked for three corporations. seven-year veteran doesn't matter when it comes to the fact that medical professionals have recommended this. I got that. I got that, but you're looking at it. You're telling me what it's like, well,

if they want you to do it their way, that's their problem because they're a closed-minded corporation. And I'll just tell you this. Like, I work for three-quarters. Essentially, that's what you're saying. You're saying that they're not taking the medical recommendation because you're a rookie.

No, that's what I'm saying is, hold on, what I'm saying is, That's not what I'm saying. That's what you're saying. Don't paraphrase what I'm saying. What I'm saying is this.

What I'm saying is that their attitude towards mental health is a sign of a lack of awareness and an ignorance around the mental health, which is a core component of overall health. And it's also assigned by that measure of their lack of respect and their lack of understanding of overall health and the combination between the two. See, it's much deeper than, oh, you guys are just quite. closed-minded. Or it's just me against you. No, it's actually you against yourself. And now seven years later, Adam Silver has to walk on stage and talk about a generational anxiety that not only it lives amongst the society, which they weren't willing to admit then when I said it, but specifically in the NBA, specifically with the best players in the

NBA, like the Kyrie Irving, who we was talking about specifically with Bill Simmons. So now he has to go on stage and admit that. So that's what I was telling them back then that this isn't just about me flying, driving, or my anxiety, or these medical professionals who you should listen to, this is about you guys. And the thing that we're trying to talk about actually affects you guys more than you want to, a real admit. That's what I'm saying. Well, what I would, and that's categorically true.

No, my, um, if you want to pick bones with what I'm saying, pick bones with what I just I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I would get like, look, look, you're taking it is. what I'm saying because it's categorically true. Royce, like you're unnecessarily. They admitted. How can you go on the line and defend the corporation that's already lit it to all of the claims that I'm making?

That's what makes you feel. I'm actually not disputing that they don't know how to deal with people with anxiety and mental health issues. Then you do that. No, no, they do know how to deal with it. They chose not to deal with it the right way. There's a difference in that. There's a difference in not knowing how to deal with something.

and then choosing to deal with it an improper way. So don't make it seem like the two are linear, because they're definitely not in my account, not from a more ethical standpoint. From a more an ethical standpoint, if you know how to do something, and you know it's proper to do it that way, and you choose not to, you have transgress.

Yeah, I'd say from their standpoint, they sit there and go like... Yeah, you're always talking about from their standpoint. That's my point. From their standpoint, no, Roy... From their standpoint, their doctors, the people who they trust, with their medical decisions at the highest level,

told them that they have a real gap in mental health policy that this 21-year-old kid was smart enough to read to his collective bargaining agreement. He figured it out. Take that on the chin. Don't take it as a sign of arrogance. Don't take it as an insult. Take it for the fact that you guys told him to read these documents. He did it.

And now he's found this piece that pertains specifically to him, but into the entire league. And if you actually implement the policy that he's talking about, that we agree with, it'll help the entire league. And a lot of other players will come forward and start to get the treatment that they've been missing. And seven years later, that is categorically the case. History tells us the truth.

So there is no bare side. Their side from their standpoint, they were wrong. They're on the wrong side of history. And anybody who's trying to defend them is also on the wrong side of history. You're looking at this in terms of policy of mental health care. I'm looking at it as, hey, dude, you should be playing and start. starting in the NBA and you're not. And you don't see a problem with that.

You don't see a problem with that frame, that viewpoint, that worldview, that your starting point would be, hey, dude, you should be starting the NBA. And my worldview is actually about mental health policy that pertains to the NBA and the greater society. You don't see the stark difference in those two viewpoint? I do actually, which brings me to the most important. Do you see the clarity in my viewpoint versus yours? Um, mine's more of a, mind's more of a question.

My's more of a question. Mine's more of a question. Okay, because I think that one thing that I would guess, and maybe again, I'm just wired differently. I should be playing in the NBA as an All-Star. That's true. And I would have had they not tried to play a game with their ego and pride and play fast and loose with the truth, which I had the same accusation of much of the media. And they're one organization. and people don't know that.

The fans don't really know that, but you and I know that. You and I know that the NBA and ESPN and Fox are all partners underwall Disney's umbrella. So let's not play at the game, because I'm very good at it. I'm elite at it, as a matter of fact, and that's why they don't like me. That's why I'm not playing the NBA.

It's about whether I could fly or not. It's not about anxiety. It's about the fact that if you let somebody tell the truth long enough, it'll eventually start to compromise all the places in your life that you need to lie in order to maintain your position. or they'll keep walking the cover back until it reaches the place where you least wanted to reach. Or there's a basketball element to it, right? And the basketball element to it.

Give me a break. Give me a break. There's no problem with me driving from Chicago to Milwaukee. There's players sitting out for load management. What kind of pseudoscience is that? I like what Joe M. B. said or Yonnet said the best. Yonis was asked at the end of the season, are you going to sit out because you guys are out in front? He said, of course not.

Of course I'm not sitting out. I love to play. Why would I sit out? I don't need to sit out. This whole load management thing is a byproduct of the dismissal of mental health. When you're talking about fatigue, you're not just talking about physical fatigue. There's mental fatigue. Your mind is what prepares your body to do the job that you ask it to do.

So when players get mentally fatigued, they not only tells their body that they're fatigue, but there's an actual catalyization of physical fatigue. from mental fatigue. And that's why the mental policy superseded Royce and his anxiety. Because the season may be too long, and people's load management may be more about their mental fatigue than it is their actual physical fatigue. Okay, so there's not a basketball element to it.

So don't try and pigeonhole it or side rail it, because if you want a side rail or sidetrack it, it only gets better for me. It only gets better for me. Kauai Litter's situation was just as much mental and a spat with the team as it was his physical injury. and we all know that. The same thing could be said for Derek Rosen,

when he came back and the team doctor said, he's physically ready to play, but he's not mentally ready to play. This idea is not new. It's been verified. It's been affirmed by players' testimony, by GM testimony, by coach testimony, etc. The only people who don't want to give in to it

are the media who don't like the fact that it would change the power paradigm in the favor of the athletes because you guys like to take shot at the athletes whenever you want it, and this really changes that. This caused you to be a little more understanding, a little more empathetic, because it puts a mirror up to your own mental health in a very, in a very, visceral way, and the ownership, and there's stool pictures who are the GMs. Don't really people don't want to accept it, and they don't want to accept it back then.

The doctor said, listen, this is a profound opportunity for the NBA to improve their products, the brand, the basketball. Because when human commodities feel better, they performed better. This is, this is a question. Like, look, it's still a, it's a performance-based business. It's a, it's a, like, like, you're bringing, listen, listen, you're, hold on. You're bringing up great points. You're bringing up great points.

No, I'm actually not outside my lane. I'm asking, I'm asking a question. It's somebody else's, broice, look, dude, it's my podcast. It's my podcast. You don't want to. What? They don't. about performance.

When humans, the fact that you started with the word conformance tells me you're outside your lane. They're going to find this case for how this performance thing. No, not. Listen, listen,

the reason that Kauai Leonard cannot play for a year and then still everybody couldn't play for a year. And every, hold on, and everybody in the NBA still wants him

is because he has already performed at it at an MVP. You don't know why Kauai Litter didn't play for a year. I don't care. Royce, I don't care. What I'm pointing out is very simple. You bring up Derek Rose.

It's a good point. You bring up Kauai Leinard. It's a good point. You talk about mental fatigue. These are good points. But those guys got to play and excel in the NBA and have gotten second and sometimes third lives. And I'm asking you a legitimate question.

Why have those guys gotten that opportunity? And you did not. I don't under that part I don't understand. And you're sitting here telling me that I'm in the media and we're against it. And I'm not against anything. I just want to know why you haven't. I just laid it out for you. What?

I just laid it out for you. I just laid out for you why I got it, why I didn't get another chance and they did. They weren't challenging policy in their second and third life. They didn't challenge policy in their first life. They just had an issue. They had an ailment or they had a physical injury that they were disappointed about that. That was tragic.

And then they came back and they were just looking for another chance to play. And there was no stat about anything other than the fact of, of who really feels which way about it personally on the inside. What I talked about went straight to the highest levels of the NBA's business, their business model, and all of their partners as well, because the middle of conversation and it's neglect. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen kingdom on earth.

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Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves.

Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicel Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Life throws hurdles big and small.

The question is, how do you conquer them? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WNBA standout Kate Martin and rising hockey star label. Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't belong. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it.

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Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field. and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking. Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing,

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Open your free, iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the hard way and listen now. Hey, isn't just about the NBA of the sports world. It's about the world. That's why it didn't get another chance because my conversation wasn't just about my need. or my anxiety, my conversation was, you guys have neglected the mental health topics. It's here now because I was drafted with anxiety.

I have to navigate this domain, this industry, transparently and honestly. And as such, the mental health conversation has to come to fruition now. And it's coming to fruition. There were a bunch of things that came with it that they didn't want to have to accept. Like, for example, the performance models that you guys had previous, didn't come for the mental health factor. Now they will. And not only will they, they will be dominant

because we know fundamentally, scientifically, if you have human commodities, they perform better when they feel better. That's actually not a new idea or a profound idea. All of our athletes have told us that throughout history, and the best coaches actually have utilized that when players or humans feel better. They perform better.

they didn't want to accept that there's also there's also realities of it right it's like would they be smart to cut the schedule from 82 games of course they would it's too many games absolutely but but the problem with it is they have their partners with the spn with tn tn t all those all those arenas have you know 41 home dates and all those vendors have 41 home dates and then the entire business model is built upon everyone depending on 41 home dates and a certain number of TV games. And so somebody's going to have to give back money and no one wants to give back any money. And so they're like,

let's just keep playing 82 games and we'll have guys sit out and that's how we'll handle it. That's generally kind of the... Well, but Doug, so my frustration with you and with most of the media and with fans and, you know, it's not personal. It's just a matter of intellectual integrity. like, you just went through and asked me why I didn't get the chance that the second chance, Kauai, or Derek, or whoever you want to say may have gotten. You just said it right there.

Nothing they were asking about, nothing they were challenging, went that deep into the pocket. They just had to do with their individual salary. Maybe. Maybe not. In Derek's case, I mean, it was kind of like, well, your contract was fired. Now I didn't put you on a minimum. What you would with, why? It was a little bit different because there was a huge, huge, you know, pursuit of him as a free agent.

But the point is that you just said it. You just answered the question. So for me, like a good litmus test for asking a question is if I can answer it myself, then I don't really ask it. You know, that's just me personally. But you answered the question. It was about money. But here's the issue. It's way deeper than money.

It's about money on the surface. It's about money as a defense mechanism. We can say, we're a business. We're a business first. So the money dominates our choice. But here's the issue with that. The mental health topic actually lends a perspective into a deeper issue below the money because every company around the world that has integrated mental health practices or mental health programs or mental health acknowledgement within their workplace has seen a productivity increase. It's only helped their business.

So here we're talking about a situation where it might not be only about the money. And that deeper issue, that deeper resentment, that deeper apprehension that the league had around me is what I'm interested in. And I think it's what a lot of other people should be interested in. And I have a hunch, I have a real hunch that there's a real fear still of black male athletes that have political acumen. And that's what I exhibited. Therefros wasn't exhibiting no political acumen. He hurt his knee. That was that.

Kauai Leonard had an injury. He was in a free agency, you know, a space and, you know, his future was in his hands, you could say, because he was highly sought after. I was a kid that came in way, way beforehand, proactively, which is how we should approach issues, proactively and said, here's what's going on, here's how I see it, let me read, let me do the due diligence and see what's actually going on under the hood, did the diagnostic, you guys don't have a policy. Oh, by the way, you're seriously afoot or a stray when it comes. to your view on overall health.

And we need to fix that, and we can fix it. And all of these people who work for you on the medical side agree that we can fix it. All you have to do is listen to them. They have so much contempt for a young black male athlete speaking the truth in a political way that they wouldn't even listen to the other white males that they hired and trust for their medicine in every other situation. That's the deep issue that we have to get to. Career Builder is made for people who have that thing.

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Find your next job fast at careerbuilder.com. All right. So here's here's the last thing. Do you have, do you have any regret from this standpoint? Had you just gone along and been like, look, I'm just going to play your game and I'm going to buy in and been an NBA player and then accrued kind of the equity of being an NBA player. maybe an NBA All-Star, would you have gotten more behind your push for mental health care awareness?

Do you understand? I understand. I'm saying, like you'd have a higher platform. No, the answer is no. You have no regret over it? No. No, not only do I not have any regret,

the answer is no to the point that you're making. It's just so cookie-cutter. It's so cookie-cutter. I'm trying to walk you into a space that is actually, starting to see. A platform has to start with the ground

elements of genuineness. And when a platform doesn't start that way, it doesn't matter what you do or how long do you wait. When you start to address whatever that issue may be or whatever that problem may be, if the genuineness isn't there, then it's not

going to be there later. There's no amount of equity that I could have accrued to make a group of people who don't want to have a conversation because it digs right down to the deepest, the deepest questions of being human and the responsibility as individuals and collectively digs right down to the deepest points of that. There's no amount of rebounds or points or assists that I could have gotten that would have made it okay to have that conversation the way I wanted to have it. Now, I could have the conversation the way Kevin Love wants to have it because Kevin Love ain't challenging no policy. Kevin Love is in challenging the status quo. He told an individual story, and I say Kevin Love

because you use the frame of reference of becoming an all-star. Sure, no, it's perfect. Kevin Love is perfect. Kevin Love is perfect. He's absolutely perfect for your argument. Go ahead. He's not challenging the status quo, Doug. All he did was tell a story about his own experience with anxiety, which I'm very proud of him for doing and totally support and love that he did it,

and I love the way he speaks about anxiety. I think he's spot on when he says everyone struggles. But he's not challenging anything. And he couldn't challenge anything with the equity that he's accrued. And I don't even think LeBron James could, and that's why through this whole mental conversation, LeBron and all his equity has remained pretty quiet, hasn't he? Because he knows that there's some issues that they just won't bend on.

And I'm willing to cross that line and certain people aren't, Doug. No, I mean. There's a difference between trailblazers and leaders, and followers. No, listen, listen, I mean, I would say, but you also said that people are afraid of black men with political aspirations. I would say LeBron James has political aspirations. I would say the NBA is a league that has allowed their players to speak out politically as opposed to the NFL.

Every time, every, I have a, I have a very, and you know, we didn't, we didn't rain into each other when I was in college. So this goes way back, but I have a very strong belief that you have the ability to see past the examples that you're presenting. And I got respect for LeBron. I'm going to get to him on a whole other note in a whole other form and fashion. But just simply put, he put out a document about Muhammad Ali. Let's just use that, for example. In my opinion, the sign of a true leader is the thing. that they do or say immediately compromises their own position in what could be a fatal or

irreconcilable way. So when Muhammad Ali said, listen, not only was Muhammad Ali already on the sense of being like or not like because of how outspoken he was and saying he was the greatest way early, then he was a part of the nation of Islam, which was not only frowned upon by the white community, but was frowned upon within the black community even. So he had that working against them. And then on top of all that, he spoke out against the Vietnam War. And on top of speaking out against the war, he said, I'm so against the war that I'm not going to go to the draft.

I mean, I'm not going to go to the Army. I'm not accepting the draft induction. And if it means that you give me five years in prison during the prime of my career, give me the five. LeBron James wouldn't give up the prime year of his career for any social issue. And by that standard, Muhammad Ali being 50 years ago, and LeBron being in real time, and the social issues only have become more inflamed, more, you know, more hot, more troublesome.

That's a stark difference between leaders. Muhammad Ali is the bar. I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you. the point you make, which is anyone who wants to... What has LeBron James ever said or spoke out against that doesn't already have a support of 50% of the country? No, I, I, listen, I'm not disputing the people who say that such,

any of these leaders are like Muhammad Ali, right? I mean, even Colin Kaepernick, even Colin Kaepernick, they're not. The willingness to give up the prime years, your career, and willing to go to jail is different. It seems as intense because of social media and the media. Absolutely right. But it really, really isn't. I'm not disputing that.

So you and I would agree there. But my point to you was to say that they're okay with giving certain people platforms that aren't truly a threat. And LeBron James, I think he could be a political threat. I'm not sure if he has the acumen or the desire or the, or the willingness to sacrifice certain things to be that threat. Tyler Kaepernick's a little bit different. Now, he walked across that line a little, he walked across some hotter colds.

I'm in support of what Kaepernick did. I'm always going to support free speech. Do I agree with everything that he chose to do with that platform in that States? Absolutely not. But I would stand with him and would have kneeled with him out of principle of the general ethos of what he was getting at. there is an issue with the black community and injustice that needs to be addressed if America is going to calibrate properly in this modern era.

But would I have allowed GQ to dress me up like a Black Panther? No. What I have partnered with Nike, who gets to play both ends of the coin and having an NFL sponsorship and doing that, well, and the labor practices that they've been guilty of, clearly guilty of. in the past. It's like justice isn't just about black or white. It should account for Southeast Asia, too. But yeah, so I think that a lot of these guys are just grandstanding, but I'm not. So I don't like when people try and allude to the idea or try and, you know, dismiss or, you know, make small

of the sacrifice that I actually made because it was the proper one and it wasn't evolution of Bali. I didn't wait to become the heavyweight champion and have all of the microphones around the world in my face to say the Vietnam War is wrong. I said mental health has to be a priority in private with the people whose decisions matter, with the people whose decisions can actually change the circumstance. I said it in private. They wanted to take it public. Daryl wanted to come out and have a conversation about me and say I was AWOL and all these other things because they felt the anxiety or the pressure of meeting to have to have a conversation have an answer for an issue that they knew would come and they needed to get out in front of it.

And they have such a big machine as you know, which is why you told me to play the game and build up an equity in the machine. I didn't tell you to. I didn't tell you to. I just asked you if you had any of the agreement that I'm not doing that. I apologize. I apologize. You said you asked the question of would that have been better.

But the reason why I'm telling you this is that the machine is still the machine. The machine is not going to let you say the thing that needs to be said. no matter how much equity you built up. And that's why a lot of the issues that we see around the world, but specifically in America, between blacks and whites, if you want to go even more specific, have not gotten much better over the last 50 or 60 years since Muhammad Ali was there and did what he did and the sacrifices that era made,

because the machine is still the machine. And if you wait for the machine to greenlights or co-sign you to make their machine less convenient, I mean, it's just the non-starter in many cases. And you see that about, you know, in many cases and many people who speak out about many things in the modern era. I was just proactive. I was one of the guys who was willing to do it before the lights cameras in action hit, you know, full tilt. There was life cameras in action, but, you know, before four years, five years, I'm looking at getting a max deal because I'm this hyperversatile points forward who is the prototype of where the NBA game is going.

Before all of that hit, I said mental health needs to be the priority. And it's biblical as well. Seeks first the kingdom of God, and all these things will be added unto you. Not to preach to you, but, you know, there's an abandonment of God as well. That goes right along with this entire narrative, with this entire modern narrative of business, you know, business neglect and culture. And, you know, if it makes money, it makes sense. And if we have the power and leverage, then we rule the day or we say what goes and what doesn't. It's just improper.

It's improper, and it's unnecessary, even more so. It's way unnecessary. Is it ironic to you? Do you think it's coincidence that Kevin Love is white and I'm black, and we said basically the same thing? No, because you said it wasn't the same thing because you said you're challenging policy. Like, I honestly don't. Behind closed doors, it wasn't. Huh?

Behind closed doors, it wasn't the same thing, but I'm talking about publicly in the reception and publicly in the outward dissemination of the message from the NBA. Because the NBA still hasn't talked about policy publicly, so let's not bring my fight for policy into the public piece. I'm talking about publicly. I can't, like, listen, maybe it's, again, maybe I'm naive to it. I think it has to do with the fact the timing of, like, he disappeared off the bench, he's an NBA champion

he's an all-star like I I honestly think it's his pedigree if you will that that changes the message more than the color of his skin but again that's you're taking it from a person that I don't

I just I don't see it that way but again I can't tell you what the rest of America things or with the NBA things you know what I'm saying like they'd be unfair for me to think so yeah no no but but but see but I've actually been in those meetings. See, I've actually been behind closed doors with the people who make those decisions.

I was actually there when they told me I was too smart for my own good. So when you talk about pedigree, athletic pedigree or accomplishment, I know that there's a layer underneath there that has nothing to do with what the public sees, that has nothing to do with the fans' interpretation. There has nothing to do with how they view the basketball. That's a fallacy that they can put out to the fans in the media because it's easy. It's cookie cutter.

Hey, we're a basketball league. basketball. It's a meritocracy. No, it's not. No, it's not. Beneath the meritocracy, there are individuals who have very personal agendas. And that group of people told me that I was too smart for my own good.

They would never tell Kevin Love he's too smart for his own good. No, I've been to, listen, I've been told the exact same thing, Royce, where people when people tell you you're too smart, it actually, it does not, it's like, oh, that actually you don't like, you know, you like, it's, you always, I always thought,

growing up, if somebody told you that you were bright and you were prepared, you know, and you knew more than other people in the room that that was a good thing. And when you have, when you're an adult and people say that, it actually is a negative from their perspective. So I told you, I actually, I actually see it. It's one of those double-in rackets, though, I was talking about earlier.

See, the reason why I say it's a double-in racket and the reason why it doesn't carry the same the same saliency that it does when somebody says to you is the historical context of black people in America and black men in America, because how often, as you know from being the athlete and being in the media, that the black athlete has been portrayed as immature, inherently incompetent, lacking of intellectual, you know, pedigree or educational pedigree or articulation. or, you know, a worldliness, you know, basically kind of cursed by the product of the environment that they came from, which is a problematic one in many places in America.

So that makes them double in racket. And also, if you go back historically, slavery and the whole oppression of black people that isn't arguable was predicated on that idea, that black people are inherently incompetent, that they're pretty much only good for labor, and, you know, maybe not so much even that. That's what you need the whiffs and chains for, right? So I don't think that it's the same thing for somebody to tell you, you're too smart for your own good versus me. I'm too smart for my own good because I take it as this is exactly what I've been called to be

from all of the disparaging comments and the dispersion that you cast amongst my counterparts or my like-skinned people is that we're not smart enough to be respected or to sit at the table or to have a voice or to have any real significant. role in decision making, you've called me to be this smart. So then don't weaponize against me when it becomes inconvenient for you. And I would actually argue the same thing for you, even being a white male or or anybody, male, female, or indifferent that are bringing a hard truth that the too smart for your own good thing is really can be weaponized in those gray areas where people

just don't want to have to accept a tough truth. They could have told Muhammad Ali, he was too smart for his own good. But he was right. So where's the premium on being? right and true. That's my right to me. That's why I was not. I think I have a great agent, and my agent has an expression.

He's like, look, you can be right and you can be out of a job. He's like, that's the, and look, it's one of the things that fascinates me about you, which is you think and have in many ways proving to be right. That's a problem with America, Doug. No, I understand. You can be right and true and out of a job. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. It's reality. You say that like, see, when you say that, you say it like it's okay. When I hear that and say that it's okay. I didn't say it's okay. I didn't say it's okay. I just realized it is what it is, right? I just, it is.

My point to you, Doug, is what do you tell your agent in response in terms of how you're going to engage the world with that knowledge? I think it just depends. It depends upon the same thing. Depends upon the platform. My agent tell me the same thing, and you know what I tell them? I tell them if we're not going to do it, who's going to do it? So what I have a problem with, and this goes for guys like LeBron or, you know, a lot of these grandstanders, and I don't want to pick on LeBron.

He's just the, he's just the most visible athlete in the world right now, maybe. A lot of these grandstanders, they want to retweet, they want to repost. They want to post people like Mahamah Ali. They want to post these quotes of sacrifice. And the whole campaign for Tyler Kaepernick was based on giving up something, you know, lose everything, just a reiteration of profit, you know, profit demand the world, the gainers, you know, gain the whole world and lose yourself. I get it. It's all feel good. It feels good.

What I'm talking about is there's no actual action that has the substance that actually addresses that. There's no substantive action that actually addresses those ideas. They were laid here for a reason. Maham Ali gave us those moments and those quotes and those those teachings and knowledge for a reason. Jesus Christ gave it to us for a reason. Why are we not using it? Why are we okay going, you know what? If David Stern and those guys want to not give me a job because I said something true and right, well, then that's their decision. It's like there is such an equanimity around institutional corruption. That's my fear.

And that's you guys as charged as the media. And I'll say mine too because my aspiration is to be involved in media with the last renaissance. But it's our charge to actually challenge that. And if we don't, that's what makes guys like Donald Trump's claims true. when he says that the media is a danger to a free America. And we don't want to make him true. He's an asshole. He's an a-hole.

He's an a-hole. We don't need to make him true. All we have to do is actually step up to the plate and go, you know what? No, no, no. No, you're right. It is the charge of the media to not just be okay with the corruption of these large institutions because who can fight him. You can fight him, Doug Gottlieb.

I've been fighting him for seven years. You can fight him, too. Last thing. You mentioned the possibility of football. There's the MMA. There's the MMA, and there's Big Three. In five years, I'm going to look, five years we talk, what will you have accomplished? Tough to say.

Tough to say. I'll still be fighting. The fight continues, that's for sure. Goal-wise, heavyweight champion, UFC, Big Three champion. I'm really, I'm really starting with the idea of playing fight in. I'm really flirting with the idea of doing that in the NFL. I really want that. There's a part of me that really wants that.

Did you play football in high school? I stopped right before high school, right before high school. So I would have played quarterback, but I just, I had too much on the line with basketball. So. But, yeah, I think I could probably make my way out there at tight end. So the problem with football, the football thing is that if you do the big three, it drags in the summer, and an NFL team is going to want to work with you all summer. You know what I mean? And the clock is, and as much as you're still in your athletic prime, the clock is ticking to get kind of those football reps.

Yeah, no doubt. Well, interesting, Doug, it's like I'm 20, I just turned 28 April. And, you know, that's kind of up there for an athlete. And not up there, but kind of getting mid-level. But really, you know, like you said, I sat out two years, even. before my first year at Iowa State. So I really only played three full seasons since I was 18 years old. And that's been 10 years now.

So I've, you know, and none due to injury, all due to, you know, other other things, nonphysical. So I think I have a lot of miles left in the tank. And I want to be one of those athletes that maybe pushes the idea of that notion right there, is what does it mean to be worn down? what's the wear and tear, what's 82 games like versus not having 82 games. And, you know, do your muscles and things just get older with the national gravity? Do you start to just, you know, lose some of that mobility and flexibility and explosiveness? Or is it largely based on wearing tear?

So, you know, we'll see. I see a lot of guys in the league right now that are getting older and older, playing better older. I don't think Dirk's a great example. I mean, he was still out there, but he was moving pretty slow. I love Dirk. He's one of the all-time great. Vince is moving a little slower, but he was a big-time jumper in his career, too. But Eagle Dow is still moving real smooth, not that he's that old.

But I think there's a conversation if you had there, and I want to be able to, you know, be one of those athletes or an example of an athlete that had a late entry, you know, challenging the status quo, was able to, you know, get back up on the horse and get it going and maybe go further than, in AIDS than some other people. So I am I put out a tweet And this is really what started this conversation about you L.O. And

and Gil and you guys are on the same big three team. And like look Gilbert Arenas should have been in the league longer. I don't like that. I don't like that. I don't like that. I get that.

I get that a lot of Twitter. Look, look, Doug, this one I'm trying to tell you. I get that a lot of Twitter and a lot of social media is about it's about humor. and it's about sarcasm and cleverness, and I get all that.

There's a dangerous line in there. There's a dangerous line in there, and I know that we haven't found it yet, and for Christ's sake, the social media injures themselves are having trouble finding it as an institution. So I get that, you know, that whole thing is very early, and the etiquettes around it are nowhere near solidified. And I would never try and censor you or what you say and say that, you don't have a right to say whatever you want to say. I'm not with that at all.

And I don't agree with them taking people off with those social media sites for saying anything as inflammatory you could imagine. But I will say that my challenge to people like you who I know are smart enough is to just be more vigilant and careful around the things you're saying, around the things you're saying, and fight the urge to be so instant, instantaneous. I understand. But think about it.

But think about our conversation right here. And now you having that conversation, this conversation with Gilbert Arenas or with Lamar Odom. Right? Yeah. Okay. Well, you just laugh. You just laugh because. You didn't expect this.

Because. So don't act like this. Roy. Roy. Roy. I absolutely did. I don't agree. Oh, okay.

But, I mean, I absolutely did. Like, just the idea of a conversation about you trying to explain, listen, Lamar, it's not drugs. It's your mental health care. Like, and Lamar trying to. Kind of explain like, no, no, no, I like that, you know, like, I just, it would be a reality show. And you and, go ahead. No, we're going to do a show.

We're going to do a show. But that's, I'm glad you said. I'm glad we get your vote. Maybe Fox Sports will cover that show. They'll give us a budget to do that. So that'll be great. But I think what you will learn is that the more that we get into the most mysterious characters of our time or of any time, the more you get closer to them, the more you have intimate time to see what they're like,

the more we're going to realize that they're really, really regular. They're really regular for the most part, like Lamar Odom, I don't think he's in any denial of that his situation with addiction with a mental health situation. I think his book is going to be primarily about that. I know it is because we talk. It's like he's a full-blown mental health advocate at this point through his experience with addiction and other things in his life

that have led him to the mental health door. and I think you'll find Gilbert Arenas the same way throughout the summer and some things that he's going to be talking about. And to be honest, the Gilbert situation, like, my point to you is, like, you know the type of reactions that can come, and it's the dangerous part about places like Twitter and and Instagram or the comment section, because we all want to act like, oh, well, it doesn't matter what those trolls are saying or what people are saying. People are just kind of crazy and off the charts anyway with that.

but we have to be more mindful of the power of reading something. Like, when you read something, there's something to that. That's why books can be dangerous. Like, there's something to it when you read something. So I don't just dismiss it out of hand. It's a great point. If something I say catalyzes a comment or manifest a comment that can be dangerous or can be, you know, a dangerous worldview, not so much what they actually say,

but just the worldview, I'm kind of like, I feel the need to go in and then comment again or try and clarify, and I see a lot of people commenting on things, and they don't have the discipline or the or feel the responsibility to further the conversation and to clarify. So my point to you was, number one, me, Gilbert and Lamar's situation are completely different. Now, you can prop us all together under what the danger in my point, in my point, Doug, is the danger is, and this is, ironically, this is a,

is a great mental health point, is that we have a tendency to clump things improperly. Like, yeah, you could clump us under a mental health banner. That would be proper. But when you start to clump us under those character issues or got in trouble or troublemaker, it's like, no, I'm not a troublemaker. Number one, Lamar suffered from an addiction that I would bet came from childhood. So I feel kind of, I feel very apprehensive.

I feel outright wrong to call him a troublemaker because I know how addiction works. I have a respect for the mental health domain enough to really understand addiction and have studied addiction. So I don't call people who are add to troublemakers. That's just improper. And number three, Gilbert Arena's situation has yet to be told. But from my understanding, and when I read through the collective bargaining agreement to find the mental health piece, there was no clear policy.

policy to my understanding back then, because I went back and looked through multiple collective bargaining agreement to try and find what might have been dead language or language that had fallen out in some, you know, by some happenstance. Anyway, when Gilbert Arena's was in the league, there was no clear policy about having your gun in the arena. That's a fact. There was no concrete policy in the player, uniform, uniform player contractor, or code of conduct about having a fire.

arm in the facility. So, I mean, you know, I think you got three players there where it's a good example. In most places, we would accept the don't judge a book by cover, but here, you know, with three coincidentally blackmail athletes who have the troublemaker stigma attached to them that all three athletes have stories that are strikingly similar around misunderstanding and jumping the gun. Now, there is an element of drug use that we have. have to accept some individual culpability for.

But, you know, that's a lot of, when I think of, like, listen, I would, I would say this, and I know Gilbert a little bit, I know a lot of people know Gilbert, I know Lamar a little bit. I would say also, like a really great guy with him at him. Yep. Who, Lamar? No, Gilbert. I mean, I, I, the both of them. Lamar especially, they're the best, right?

They're all bright, and you'll have these unique personal stories. and I wouldn't I again I even think you said earlier the use of the word trouble maker is unfair like I wouldn't think of Lamar Lamar is more of a sympathetic figure and I think there's a bunch of things to Lamar which are I think kind of the basketball system has done him done him a disservice in many ways Gilbert's thing Gilbert's one of those guys that I would say he has the label that you have of too smart for his own good like Gilbert is and I had this conversation with another former NBA NBA player. I'll leave his name out of it for a second, but I was talking about Steph Curry and the shots he takes. And I was like, look, it's not just that Steph is, it said he's taking shots that no one took thought to take 20 years ago. And the NBA player's like,

you know, Gilbert used to take those. I was like, really? Like, yeah, Gilbert was the one who actually first took 30 footers. No one else took 30 footers. And now it's, you know, staff and you know then we we we uh we see you know damien lillard take you know take him for for game winners and so in many ways like gilbert rinas was kind of a transcendent player but he's not he's never going to get that credit because of the gun incident and and how it derailed his career it's kind of a fact that's part of why i think it's a fascinating it'd be a fascinating reality show because you have three incredible careers like lamar was an NBA champion but he had all

this tragedy in his life, right? And then he had the, and combined with the fact that we were watching kind of this train wreck on a reality show, you had Gilbert and then you had your career that never got off the ground in the NBA, but it's because, as you pointed out, you're fighting, though. Yeah.

For a second, for a second, just run this thought experiment. Um, Lamar Odom's, you know, derailment came, what year would you say? It was, it was 2015, 14? Well, it was, apparently the spiral started when he got traded for Chris Paul, right? But, you know, his son had died,

um, get an infant son that died that really, that, that, you know, and he had death kind of surrounded. That's just absolutely, I mean, that, like, see, this is my problem when, when people, it's just like the Allen Irvingson thing, like everybody made the, you know, practice, practice, practice, when really what Alan Iverson said clearly that people still want to skim over

in the media out of their resent of having played an instrumental role in the propagation of that twisted narrative won't put any highlight on the fact that he was saying, look, my friend just died. My childhood's friend just died. He lost his life. He's not here anymore.

Is the value on life and the premium on life so low that you guys have to be here talking to me and emphasize in practice? And that's what he said. And all they play back is that, well, practice, practice. Like, he was mocking the idea of practice. It's like, come on, guys.

And I make that point because when you hear about Lamar Alden, the first thing they want to say is about Kardashian. The first thing they want to say is all the Kardashian curse, or, you know, he was silly for letting them or blah, blah, blah, blah, like, guys, first of all, we're all more silly than we want to admit. It's easy for you to pick at somebody who's in the public and say, We're how silly that guy is like, no, you're far more silly than you want to admit than you'll ever admit. Anybody, if anybody who's listening, you're more silly than you will ever admit.

I'm more silly than I like to admit. And so why is the first lead of that story not, man, this guy actually lost the son? I couldn't even imagine what it would be like to lose a child. I couldn't even imagine my kids eight years old and five years old right now. I couldn't imagine it. And so to add that on top of what addiction is like in general, it's just like man

it's the sympathy needs to we need to lead with sympathy and I don't want to be like you know and pass old manic or nothing like that

but we got to lead with some sympathy in cases like that I mean this ain't a guy who's just going through some run of the mills stuff

this is like this is like world beating stuff you know it's just it's so much bigger than that and my point to you is this

had the NBA put in a mental policy and put in the widespread awareness program that me and the doctors advocated for back in 2012. Would it maybe have helped Lamar out? I think he was still in the league at the time. Yeah.

Possibly. Possibly. Possibly. My teammate Tyler Honeycutt in the RGB was there when this policy conversation came to the surface. Okay. And I never even knew that Tyler Honeycutt was dealing with issues, and maybe he wasn't dealing with issues back then.

But last year, my friend Tyler Honeycutt was. killed himself, so the story goes. Maybe the police killed him. We don't really know. We'll never really know. But so the story goes, he killed himself. Would the mental health policy have helped him, potentially? Would it have helped Kevin Love, potentially?

He would have known what a panic attack was when he had it. Had, well, maybe not. He might have still thought he was having a heart attack, because that's how bad those can be. But the point is, like, Demar de Rosen is like, these people have been structurally de incentivized and being their authentic self and sharing their innermost struggles because they know it makes them vulnerable economically.

They know it makes it vulnerable in their social status. And that's what the deeper point was about the mental health conversation. It's not to pick bones about what the actual language says on paper or, you know, this. And I know the business side and the law side has to account for those things. But the reality is just the reality is that there's a deeper issue here that all of us could benefit from even the owners. for Christ sake that the owner

from the Oklahoma City Thunder drove his car into a concrete wall yeah yep I mean that's just this is all factual Doug and you know

people don't people don't want to people don't want to hear my story and give me a platform like that yet it'll come around it's still coming the history the history is still turning

in my favor with more and more momentum and I think the big three draft was a first step. I think some of the other players there who may have had misinformation about me or not really understood my story. Through other people like Kevin Love and the whole movement are looking at me more with credibility now. But there's still a real resent towards me having a platform even today because the thing I'm saying causes to look

right in the mirror, right down into our own soul and go, who are you? Not who is Lamar Odom? Not Lamar Odom being at wherever he was and taking the drugs. How much coffee did he? How much coffee do you need to get up in the morning. Are you going to act like caffeine isn't a drug? Because it surely is. These are the points that I'm willing to bring, and it's, you know, it's just uncomfortable. But I'm dedicated, so.

Royce, I appreciate your time, and I look forward to seeing you the Big Three this summer and seeing you in the Octagon as well. I hope you enjoyed it, and thanks for joining us. Doug, be well, man. All right, let me quickly give you a wrap-up on Houston Golden State. If you listen last week, I gave you what I thought game six would look like and kind of nailed it.

I was really impressed by Golden State running offense, going with a bigger lineup, using their big guys run more pick and roll. And for people who say that's what Golden State used to look like, not really as much as you think. When Steph Curry and Clay Thompson had Harrison Barnes, they had the fewest number of pick and rolls in the last. league. They were a ball movement offense and they still move it better without Kevin Durant. But they're running a lot of high ball screens now. A lot of high ball screens. That's, that's not what they used to do. Now, we can be critical of how Portland guarded him in round one, in the game one of the finals, Western Conference Finals, but as Terry Stott's pointed out,

Portland tried to trap him in game six, I mean, Houston tried to trap him in game six and couldn't seem to do it. That game was lost in the first half when Houston couldn't keep them at arms distance, have a 10, 12 point lead where maybe the Warriors shut it down in the second half, right? And I think, I believe that what Steph Curry is able to do, the shots he's able to make, I think Gilbert Arenas was the first to take 30-footers, sometimes under duress, and a decent percentage of them, but shooting them going right, going left, high-level games, shooting what seems to be a high-level clip.

Like, I've never seen this. Like, I was always taught, like, don't shoot off a crossover, he does it. Most guys don't shoot well going right or going left, he does. Oh, yeah, and he shoots well off the catch. And while he can turn the ball over a bunch, he's got a clever eye as a passer. and when he makes his finishing shots, and how do you guard the guy? And then maybe the most underrated part or under-discussed part

about Steph Curry's finish was the eight-made free throws consecutively at the end of the game, and it felt like the net didn't even move. Right? He's unbelievable. But I also would point out that it was a now-or-never moment for Houston, and the flaw, and this is what Golden State, I think, understands about, Kevin Durant.

You can't attack the same way for seven consecutive games. And Houston did figure it out some and like, hey, let's use Chris Paul and ball screens. That's what he does best. That's a little bit different than everything else we do. But I think Houston, their front office had a good idea two years ago when they, or last season, whatever, with Joe Johnson and this season with Carmelo Anthony. Just the idea of, hey, every once in a while, let's stop doing running our offense. And let's just throw it in the post and let that guy eat.

and everybody else take a break. That's what Golden State does. I think that's what they'd like to do some with DeMarcus Cousins if he was healthy. It doesn't necessarily make you better, but it can make everybody else better in the fourth quarter, so they still have juice, still have gas in the tank. And Houston just didn't have that. That's probably why James Hardin played so well in the first half

and ran out of gas in the second half. Was it some of it cranked up defense and changing your coverages? Yeah, some of it is just the attrition of, you do the same thing for six consecutive games. And oh yeah, by the way, you kind of, you know, Peter out a little bit in the second half of games, especially in game six when you have all that attrition from earlier on in the playoffs, earlier on in the series, earlier on in that particular game.

There's also this sense that the Warriors may in fact be better without Kevin Durant. And I don't think it's just the Warriors saying it. I think they know it and feel it, that Katie is, in fact, their best player. Does that make him super easy to play with? No. Does that mean the ball does stop yet? Some. But we're going to make this referendum on Kevin Durant and the Warriors because they're

now, what, 32 and 5 without him? But how do we have a referendum on Kevin Durant and his greatness when they won the last two NBA championships and he was the finals MVP? You know? And like, look, are we going to be critical of the ball stopping with KD throughout his, what did he have? Like some sick. It was game five.

he got hurt. So it was like an incredible seven or eight game run since the, you know who I am Kevin Durant moment. We have just like no long term memory. If you look at the last month of the season, Kevin Durant was playing team ball, moving the basketball, not taking a ton of shots.

Early on the playoffs, moving the ball, not taking a ton of shots. And then people in somewhat similar field to mine are like, why isn't Kevin Durant scoring more? So he's like, all right, fuck you. Now I'm going to score 40, 45, because you said I couldn't.

And then you score 40 and 45. Why don't you move the ball more? Like, I was just moving the ball more. And you said it should have scored more. What do you want? People are insane. They're insane. Rule number one in basketball.

Rule number one is stop the ball. Rule number two is don't turn the ball over. But rule number one in basketball and offensive basketball is take what the defense gives you. Take what the defense gives you. And that's what he did. The Clippers chose to guard him with one small dude. and he was like, you know, they had double teams and, you know,

they were running them off three point line. So he was finding ways to be a good teammate. And then when he got isolated on inferior dudes, he's like, all right, I'll take what the defense gives you. Whap, whap, whack, whack, whack, whack. I've heard a lot of weird things. My boy Rashad Phillips was like, uh, Steph's points are more impactful than KD's.

Like, I don't really get that. I guess, I get that when you make nine three pointers, it takes fewer possessions. and it feels nine three-pointers, feels like 15 three-pointers. I got that. I got that. But when you miss nine three-pointers or you miss threes, which he did go through a time, which he wasn't making shots, those become arduous.

You shoot a quick. You turn the basketball over. Empty possessions become, they like double down on themselves when you're on the defense event. Like, man, we're playing all this defense just to watch you miss a chuck and duck three. So it does work both ways. But this idea, they're not better. They're just different with Kevin Durant. Well, they had to change the whole construct of the team because of the salary cap.

Kevin Rand's the best player, and you'd always rather have the best player on the floor rather than sitting on the bench. It doesn't mean that Steph Curry is a schmuck. He's awesome. He can't affect the game as often and at both ends the way that Kevin Durant can affect the game. They're different. but the team's better with KD. As for the draft lottery, I'll just say this.

I like John Morant and number two. I do think that his style of playing point guard, playing lead guard, is one that will translate as long as he continues to improve on his three-point shooting, but in the transition and open space of a regular season NBA game, he should be special.

And I don't know why Anthony Davis wouldn't consider playing a year with Zion, and then he can pick his spot, although I think he's pretty fried and he's just like, look, I'm done with this thing. Trade me, let me get to... But if he goes to New York, are they going to win right away? If he goes to L.A., maybe they win right away.

I don't know. I don't know how Anthony Davis and LeBron play together. That ends up being perfect. I do think there's something, too, Jason Kidd joining that coaching staff where maybe it's that Jeff Schwartz is his kid's agent, and Schwartz represents both Kemba and D'Andre Jordan, and maybe those are targets for the L.A. Lakers. I can only tell you this.

I almost wish David's turn would have popped out of nowhere and had a frozen envelope and had Zion in New York. Would have been fun. Or even in Atlanta would have been fun. Instead, he's in New Orleans, which is kind of the witness protection program of the NBA. On one hand, he saves that franchise and gives them hope after trading Anthony Davis. On the other hand, it does feel like we're doomed to not see Zion play meaningful basketball for the next three or four years. All right. That's it for this edition of All Ball. Make sure you listen to my daily show 12 to 3 Pacific, 3 to 6 Eastern Time on Fox Sports

Radio. And on Fox Sports Radio.com, SiriusXM 217, 203. We appreciate you listening. Download, subscribe, and rate us. My thanks to all my guests, I'm Doug Gottlieb, and this is All Ball. Okay, All Ball community, I'm about you make your holidays even happier. Get the Epson Ecosan Ecotank cartridge-free printer because you know it's not festive? Cartridge Connipions. Those panic freakouts that happen when those pricey ink cartridges run out at the worst possible time.

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