The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Gottlieb - All Ball - Why the Pac-12 is down; Boogie's fit with the Warriors; Guest - Kelvin Sampson on the road to 600 wins

Episode Date: January 25, 2019

Subscribe here to the All Ball with Doug Gottlieb Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2.  This week, Gottlieb looks at why the Pac-12 is down, Kyrie walking the walk after controversial comments, how Boogie fits in with the Warriors, his takeaways after seeing Michigan up-close, Nasir Little's improvement with UNC, and fascinating hoops talk with Houston Head coach Kelvin Sampson on his road to 600 wins and Arizona State color analyst and former point guard Kyle Dodd on the state of the Pac-12. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was harmed. You just understood.

That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in to her, he's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Whether you upgrade your car because you need to or because you want to, eBay Motors has all the car parts you need.

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Do you remember Montana Tech? I don't. We'll talk to Montana Tech, some Michigan State. He was a grad assistant there. And of course, a little bit of Houston, as he'll join us a little bit later on in the show. Should be a little bit later on in the pod. Should be great. So Kelvin Samson.

Also, Kyle Dodd will be our guest. Kyle Dodds, a former point guard at Arizona State. He's their radio color analyst. I want to ask him about, I think he was the point guard when Eddie House had 61 points. He was a freshman, Eddie House was a senior, asked him what that experience is like. And I want to ask him about the PAC 12. Why is the PAC 12 so down?

And I'll kind of give you my own thoughts. Matter of fact, I'll give you my own thoughts right now. I do think that there are certain leagues and certain schools that are not built. to be able to withstand the massive turnover. Matter of fact, most programs are. Makes Michigan even more remarkable, right? They lose Mo Wagner. You lose Shreif Abdul Rahman.

And up until the last weekend, a game I called against Wisconsin, they were undefeated. And part of that is B-line, part of that is they're recruiting, and part of that is the core of the guys that they brought back. And part of that is schedule, right?

Some of the schedule who you get when you get them, you played a national championship game. You won a big 10 tournament the year before. But a lot of programs, like Villanova wasn't really built to withstand. Had they not lost Dante Divencenzzo and Spellman, they're a top five, top seven team this year anyway. They just are. Duke, obviously, in Kentucky, they have to build themselves to withstand massive losses and defections to the NBA. But they're able to get the top five guys, you know, fight over the top five guys.

and you see Ashton Hagan's improving remarkably because he's a legit dude. And you see how good Duke is, especially when they have Trey Jones. So you look at the West Coast programs and from Oregon State losing Drew Eubanks, who put his name in and signed a two-way contract with the Spurs, you know, to Stanford losing Reed Travis, who grad transferred out, to UCLA losing Aaron Hollis. a day to Arizona losing essentially their entire team. You know, a senior late and you lose, you lose tray holder, three big seniors for Arizona

State. Like these programs aren't built to withstand this. USC might have been, but between Benny Boatwright not being right, between Kevin Porter and all the misfires there. But the big thing is, you're judged, a league is judged based upon their elite level, their top level programs. And Cal is a dumpster fire. It should be a better program.

but they've been depleted by the NBA and by, you know, Conzo not building it for the long term and then leaving shortly into his stay. And UCLA, I mean, but it's really UCLA in Arizona. And Arizona, because of the accusations midseason last year

against Sean Miller, lost most of their recruiting class. And UCLA, you know, it was tenuous at best to see if Alford could keep his job and they're really young and they only have one point guard on the team. That's what you're judged by.

but we'll get Kyle Dodd's thoughts. A couple thoughts quickly around the NBA. It does feel like Kyrie Irving has decided to walk the walk after talking the talk, doesn't it? Like single-handedly taking over games, showing the ability to have double digits and assists. It's always interesting when somebody comes out in the media and I didn't feel like he ripped his teammates. I feel like what he said was like, hey, look, you want to get there. I've been there. I also didn't feel any sort of negative feelings towards him when he said he called LeBron James.

Haven't you ever want to call somebody in your life and say, hey, you know what? I was an ass then. Sorry. Can you forgive me? I really learned a lot from you. I've done that. I thought Kyrie showed an incredible amount of maturity. And then after the whatever happened in Orlando, taking over games, scoring and assist, he's been magnificent.

It's been pretty amazing to watch him walk the walk after talk of the talk. a guy who, for whatever reason, sometimes doesn't get the respect I think he deserves. He's a top 10, maybe top five player in the NBA. He is that dynamic. Let me give you a couple other quick NBA thoughts. And then I'll give you some college stuff, some teams that I've seen in person. The Golden State Warriors have added DeMarcus cousins. And I do, look, there's still going to be the overwhelming favorite to win it all.

And so when I tweet about DeMarcus cousins looking heavy and lacking lift and being out of shape and also how the warriors are going to have to change the way they play with them. I feel that's a basketball opinion that I have and that is shared by others in the NBA. Whether it's shared by others or not, but it is actually shared by others in the NBA. And here's the thing. Cousins has always been the best or second best player on his team. And now all of a sudden he's going to have to be the fifth best player. Everyone says, I'll be fine.

We'll see. And if you play him, even if he gets back to being healthy, and right now he's not fully healthy, he's not fully in shape. He's not moving the same. He doesn't jump the same. Remember, the Golden State Warriors have won three championships playing with their death lineup. The death lineup does not have a big guy.

And the reason the death lineup works is, Draymond can play center, and they can switch with everybody, with the exception for the most part of Steph Curry. If you add to Marcus Cousins, though it can improve your efficiency on offense and give you another weapon, and also can really hurt you on defense,

because now you have two guys that you're going to try and hide. Now you can't switch with everyone. You have two guys you don't really want to switch with. It changes their ball screen cover. It changes a lot of how they play. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't have done the deal if I was the Warriors. Considering who else was out there, considering my options, it was a great option. But it doesn't mean that it's a locked up since they win a championship.

It just doesn't. There's a lot more to it than that. And he's coming off of an Achilles 10. tendon tear and he doesn't look like he's back the same. Now, can he get back to you? You got four months before he plays an NBA finals. There's no reason to believe he won't be better. He won't be further along.

An additional concern is he looks a little bit heavy. I would have thought he'd look light coming in and looking a little bit heavy. That is what tends to have other things get hurt, right? Your Achilles tendon's fine, but now you pull a hammie. And now your knee has soreness or your hips or your back because you're carrying a little bit more weight. and you're not trying to favor your Achilles Tennis, but your body's still learning how to adjust and play while you're recovering from what's a debilitating injury.

So it's going to be something to watch. I don't think the Warriors bench is nearly what has been. I know that Livingston's been a mid-range bucket getter and found a way to dig deep in the playoffs before. And Iguadala went healthy, but he wasn't healthy last year. And we'll see if he can dig deep again in the playoffs. So we shall see. I'm not convinced that they are better.

demonstrively because of Boogie Cousins. That even though Javelle McGee is not a better player than Boogie Cousins, Javille McGee knew his role, block shots, occasionally scored. There was one game in the finals where he did have to score. But stay out of the way. Just be a screener, a mover, fly on the wall. And then when he's out of the game, he was fine with it. When DeMarcus is out of the game, how will he handle it?

I still think it's going to be fascinating to watch. I also, though, wonder if anybody in the West can beat them. The Rockets aren't as good as they were previously, and Chris Paul, of course, not healthy. Where have I heard that before? The likelihood that Chris Paul is healthy and that they're better than last year. Last year's Rockets team beats this year's Warriors team.

But last year's Rockets team is no more. Oklahoma City outside of Paul George can't shoot. And something's wrong with Russell Westbrook. I'm not sure that the Lakers went healthy aren't the second best team in the West, but they don't have enough shooting. They can guard, really, really guard, but don't have enough shooting.

Utah, I mean, not Utah. Denver, they're not ready yet. Denver's fun. Denver will be hard to play against because you're playing an altitude. and because their center is like they're like a point guard in terms of his ability to pass and they spread you all out and they're fun. They're not beating the Warriors in the playoffs.

Portland's come back down to Earth, but they're still fun. I just, I don't think the Warriors are as good as they've been. I think whether it's Toronto or Boston coming out of the east and Boston having trouble kind of adjusting to new roles. But I'm not convinced the Warriors are better than they were last year. The only difference is the West probably isn't as good as it was last year. Let me take a minute to talk to you about Robin Hood. Robin Hood.

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I coached him. He played for Braille Linda High School. Played from my dad and me in AAU basketball. He was a freak athlete. A 5'11 white point guard from Orange County who could win any done contest. Jump to the moon. The starting point guard as a freshman. at Arizona State. He's now Arizona State's color analyst on radio, and he's been doing it for years, so he knows the entire Pac-12.

All right, let's welcome in Kyle Dodd, who was a superstar, super freak athlete at Arizona State. Best player you played with the Sun Devils? Eddie House, Ike Diyahu, probably are both close. I played with Eddie my freshman year. He was a senior. Just unbelievable scoring games. Just probably my easiest job as a point guard, just kind of. Ran the give and go a lot, give it to Eddie, and go the heck away, and get out of the play. Ike Yagyu was phenomenal.

He was a freshman when I was a senior, and definitely the best post player I played with. You know, it's interesting. Let's start with Eddie. You were the point guard when he scored 61 at Cal, right? Yeah, that's my claim to fame and Eddie combined for 64 that night. What was it like? Oh, just incredible. I mean, it was one of those games, and I remember being in the press conference.

after. I actually played pretty well that game. And I think the reporter from the Bay Area had asked me, they're like, you know, you guys really have a good on-court rapport, and you guys seem to be jelling. And I kind of looked at the guy who just dumbfounded like, dude, it ain't that hard what I did tonight. Like, I literally threw the ball as he was getting, you know, ready to shoot. And the thing about Eddie was everybody talks about a quick release and, you know, quick release. Well, what Eddie did is he had quick, quick shot preparation. He got his feet set. So by the time that ball, he was, you know, he was a quick release. So, he was, he

time that ball hit his hands, he was in the air, almost like Stephens, you know, right now. Yeah, he was a talker, too. Like, I, I talked with him at the game I broadcast last night. I was like, hey, you remember when we played you? It was early on your career. You got to fight with somebody, like, on the sidelines, like, oh, yeah, that, that shit happened all the time. Like, he didn't, it's just, it's a different, it's a different deal, which I'm cool with, like, I would get into arguments with my guys all the time. I don't know how, like, civilians kind of handle that, but he was a, he would talk a little bit. Oh, absolutely.

No, he talked more than anybody I ever played with or played against, but my favorite story is we had gone 11 straight years without beating UCLA. He had to beat them in 22 straight games. We were playing them at home. It was Eddie's last chance to get him. We were up, I think in the paper the day before Matt Barnes and said, yeah, we've heard about his scoring game. We've heard about it, but I'm telling you, he has to go for 40 to even have a chance.

And we blitzed him. We were up 30 with, like, you know, five minutes. into the second half, and about six minutes left to go in the game, Eddie has 37, gets fouled on the three, goes to the line, and right before he shoots his first free throw, he looks at Matt Barnes, he goes 38, makes it, looks at him again, 39, makes it, and then he just says 40, makes the free throw, checks himself out of the game, looks at our coach, Coach Kevin, just says, get me out, and he says,

get these dudes off my floor. And I was like, you know, I'm a freshman playing in the Pac-10 for the first time, and I'm like, oh, my God, that was the coolest thing I've ever seen. Uh, okay, Ike Diago, was he, could he guard different positions? Because it feels like he was like undersized, no neck, but long arms would be like a four, five combo now. Uh, almost feel like he might have been born before his time. Yeah, I think, you know, he was just raw. I mean, he was really, really talented, but, you know, he struggled a little bit to, like, remember plays, you know, defensive assignments and stuff, but just natural raw ability. I mean, he, yeah, he probably fits a little bit better right now in today's game.

I mean, dude is still getting it done playing on the Nigerian national team. But he could step out and shoot it, and the guy had the biggest hands I've ever seen. I mean, I was the GA the next year after I got done playing, and one of my favorite things to do was just run post drills, because, I mean, I would throw the ball as hard as I could on a post-entry pass just to watch him, you know, snag it with one hand. It was ridiculous. But, yeah, very skilled and super good kid, you know,

was just extremely educated at, you know, growing up as parents were, I think, both doctors and, you know, really, really good kid and smart kid. All right. Last thing. Why is the Pact 12 so bad this year? I don't know. I just think, you know, so many teams have lost, you know, guys. I mean, I talked to your brother last night, actually, before the game, and, you know, you look around, and nobody has, you know, veteran players anymore.

And I think that's why we had a little bit of success early last year, and you did because we had three seniors guys, and you just don't see that anymore. I mean, look around the league, and there's nobody in the league that really has players that have been on the roster for two, three years. It's all guys that are either transferred. or, you know, there's some talent. You know, UCLA obviously we see that. I mean, USC, yeah, about it some talent in Washington.

But I just think it's, yeah, it's just kind of a combination of guys being in and out, coaches being in and out, and that's tough. I mean, it's, I've never really seen it like this since I've been around it for, you know, 20-plus years. My, we've got to run, but my hypothesis is this. One Arizona, UCLA being down hurts the overall image of the league. but the teams that usually win on talent in the league, right? Cal, the worst they've been in a long time, right?

Cal massively down. Arizona had a kind of, you know, hit reboot in their whole program, and UCLA firing their coach, like those three teams as well as USC and Arizona State are always kind of up and down programs, but those two, you know, those three are usually talent-rich programs and two of them, you know, complete refresh jobs, and then UCLA just a mishmosh where they fire it, and they don't have enough guards. That's the other part.

Dude, good catching up. Appreciate you joining us. All right. Thanks, Doug. Thank you. Now let's talk with Kelvin Samson. Kelvin, of course, just won his 600th game as head coach at Oklahoma. And he's had a marvelous career, including leading Oklahoma to the Final Four, where they lost.

Remember when when Teen Cleaves sprained his ankle, right? The great Hollis Price was his point guard. That was an incredible team. We had seven basketball. I think we played them seven times when I was at Oklahoma State. And I think we were four and three against them. They swept us my junior year. He beat us on senior night at our place.

I believe a terrific coach. Obviously, the NCAA stuff has distracted people from how hard his teams play and how well his teams play. And then last year, of course, Houston missed free throws. Otherwise, they beat Michigan in the second round of the tournament. And Michigan doesn't go on to a national championship game. Let's welcome in the head coach of the Houston Cougars, Kelvin Samson. Coach, like, I know that everybody talks about your team now,

and maybe I want to get into last year and how incredible you guys played against Michigan and kind of how we, you know, the pain of the tournament is we don't talk about teams that maybe outperform others because of the result. But I want to, let's go back, okay? Your upbringing is different than any other coach. in college basketball, fair? You can't take a pause there. You're like, I mean, I can't think of anyone else who's, who's, I'm like, did I read this

story correctly, that your dad was part of a group of Native Americans that kind of kind of chased the Ku Klutz Klan out of where you grew up, right? Right, right. I just had the, I think, the 50th year or 60th year anniversary of that. but that was a that was part of the lore of our community growing up I mean I mean I'm sure nobody wants to hear stories but but I I remember I vivid remember from Ku Klux Klan experiences and we knew what we knew what it was and we're not to go let's say that well I mean you don't have to give me a share any like I mean

of the the most painful ones but I mean that okay see you're in deep brand right, which is in North Carolina. So... Timbroke was where I was born and raised. Southeast in North Carolina. But the place where the Ku Klux Klan rally was in Maxston, which is about nine or ten miles away. And there's always threat of their activity. And they were going to go and, you know, everybody knows what the clan is.

but there's nothing positive to come out of those experiences. Dragging people out of houses and beating them up, sending messages. They really, really disliked any kind of mixed marriage. So they would target families and send their messages. And any time they had a rally, you know. The next thing, you know, they were busting somebody's door down, dragging people out of the house. This is back in the 50s.

This is We have Martin Luther King Day My father My father was a Was inducted in the North Carolina Coach's Hall of Fame But he coached in segregation From 1955

Five Up until 1968 I think was when segregation Decegregation came to his So that was That was unique But you know when you're living in that time

It's not It's not unique to you. It's just the way it was. I remember going to the North Association Clinic, which was a big deal for high school coaches in that state, was always in Greensboro. In 1965, I would have been 10 years old. And I remember going to clinics and all the minority coaches sat in one area

and all the white coaches sat in another area. If you're a black coach or a minority coach in North Carolina at that time, that's just the way it was. Black kids played against black kids. White kids played against white kids. Native American kids played against Native American kids. But that was normal. So, but you know, you have those memories.

And, you know, you're just so appreciative of how far we've come. And I still think we have a long way to go. So you play at UNC Penbroke, and then you decide, did you pick Michigan State? to learn under Judd, or did you pick Michigan State for a different reason? You know, I wanted to go to grad school. I wasn't sure where I was going to go. But by being a minority, by being a minority student, I got to take the GRE for free. That's why I took it.

I have a twin sister that was in pharmacy school at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. And she told me about it. And I had some friends that a high school buddy of mine played baseball at North Carolina, so I went to stay with him that weekend. I was playing on the baseball team, too. We had a rainout, so I went up there and took the GRE. And if you score a certain number, I have no idea what I scored. But I scored high enough to get put in this thing called a Minority Locator Code

because everybody back then was recruiting diversity. So I started getting these letters from all these different schools offering financial assistance to come to school. And that spring, Michigan State University was playing Kentucky. I think Kentucky had Kyle Macy. I could be wrong, but I think I'm right. Six-nine point guard from Michigan State. He was a freshman. He had a big old puffball afro, and he was just taking that ball down the court,

looking one way flipping at the other and it was Magic Johnson. I was sitting there with my dad and I said, do you believe that point guard, six foot, nine, dad? I mean, holy smokes. I never, you just never saw that. And lo and behold, within a week or two, I got a letter from Michigan State. And the guy's name on the letter was Dr. Gail Michaels, M-I-E-L-S, Dr. Gail Michaels.

And he had a number. So I called the number on the letter. He had no idea who I was. He said, some kid from North Carolina that we send this form letter to, and he probably thinks it's a personal letter. Right. But that guy was so nice and so professional, and that's how I wound up at Michigan State.

How'd you, what was your first interaction with Judd liked? Did your dad call to talk to him? No. Interaction with Judd was really, bad. I was nervous. I was intimidated by him. You could also add scared, scared to death in there, too.

I didn't know anybody when I went there. I just went there. Take me back. Take me back before you get there. How did you, do you remember how you got from North Carolina, Michigan State? I mean, right, this is late 70s? Like, is this bus? Is this plane?

No, I had a twin sister went with me. I think she flew back. She went with me. A little U. one of those little small U-Haul trailers that you just pull on the back of the Jeep

going through those mountains in West Virginia I was really concerned about making it but once you know you just it's a new place

new people it's a new experience but I looked at it as an adventure as most I was 22 years old you know you know what really helped me

as I was standing in the dorm Owen Graduate Hall with a bunch of graduate students. There was a basketball court right outside the dorm. And so once I got settled, I just went over there and got in a game. And I made friends with this guy named Bob Thompson, who wound up being in my wedding.

Bob was from Rose Point Farms, Michigan. Really good basketball player played golf at Valparaiso. was getting his MBA from Michigan State. And he and I hit it off, and he became my basketball buddy. So we'd go out and play hoop every day until it got too cold. But I made my way over to the basketball office. I was teaching three classes, and I was taking 15 credits. I was going to try to get my master's done in one year.

And so I made my way over to the basketball office, and the assistant coaches was Dave Harshman, No, Dave Harsman, Edgar Wilson. And then you only had two assistants. You know, you have restricted earnings or part-time is what they were called then, right? Mm-hmm. And I just introduced myself to him and told him I was a grad assistant. And asked him, was there any volunteer positions open?

And they just kind of laughed at me. I was probably the 50th kid that had walked in the office that day. And so I went back another time, and the secretary's name was Lori. And she was a sweetheart. She was really nice to me. She said, well, what I would recommend is that you go in and talk to Judge. Okay. So I said, and I walked in the judge's office, Doug, and he goes, what do you want?

You know, my confidence level, I finally got my nerve up the door. My confidence level just fell to the ground. I said, well, I play college basketball at Pembroke State University, which is now UNC Pembroke, there's something I could do to help out with the basketball team. He looked me in the eye, and he said, no. Now, for people who don't know Judd Heathcote, first of all, ridiculously funny, but also ridiculously, like stand-up comedian-level funny, but also dirty as can be. and incredibly sarcastic.

So was he being honest or was he being sarcastic? Honest. He was being honest. And so I said, okay, I got to come up with a different game plan. So I started going over in the afternoons. I teach classes during the morning and the afternoon I'd study and then a lot of the graduate classes was at night. But I had a block in the afternoon that I could go over to the basketball office

and one of their assistants I formed a relationship with him, Dave Harshman, who later became my assistant at Washington State. But Dave was really nice to me. I said, you guys have extra work that I could help you with? And so he pulled a chair by his desk and just, you know, stuffed envelopes,

just did secretarial stuff, really. And then he said, Have you talked to Judd? I said, yeah, he said, how did it go? I said, not very good. He said, well, you might have called him on a bad day. Well, long story short, I go in a second time, and he actually talked to me. And I told him about my father being a high school coach.

He liked that because Judd, you know, was a high school coach for 14 years in Spokane. So, but he said, no, there's nothing. We don't have anything. And then I found out they had a JV team. And so the third time was the charm, Doug. I went in and said, Judge, is there any way I could be an assistant or help out with the JV team? Because the restricted earnings guy was named Fred Paulson. And Fred was the head coach for the JV team.

And the judge said, well, why don't you go talk to Fred? And Fred says it's okay and it's okay with me. And that's how I became a grad assistant in Michigan State. What was he like as a coach? What do you take, like everyone knows how funny. he was, but he won a national championship. They're an incredible program. What about his coaching was unique?

He had the most incredible. He put a lot of pressure on the assistant coaches. You better know first and last name. You better know their jersey number. You better have their height and weight accurate. You better have their tendencies. If they were right-handed and went left or left-handed it went right. He knew everything about every single player.

That really resonated with me. He was so smart with scouting reports. He knew how to take away your strength. I remember we played Purdue one year with Joe Barry Carroll. And Judd knew how to, you know, he played a two-three matchup zone. Terry Donnelly and Mike Berkovich was up front. Greg Kelser, Jay Vincent, and Irvin was on the back. And then we had this guy come off the bench named,

Bobo, Ron Bobo Charles, six, seven, or eight, had about a seven, two wingspan. But Judd knew how to take a man and a half, a man and a half and assign it to the player that he wanted to limit. And he did the same thing with Larry Bird in the national championship game. But just his intelligence, the smartest coach I think I've ever seen. He was so smart, and he was a sense of humor. He should be so sarcastic and tough in practice. Say one thing and crack up everybody, coaches, players. But there was such a respect for him.

And when he got out of coaching, I think Tom, his exit from Michigan State was what everybody should do. He built a house in Spokane at Manitou Country Club. And when he retired, he moved right to Spokane. He didn't want to be around to have a shadow over Tom, which I thought was real professional and classy. But, you know, I could always count on calls from Judd. You know, he'd call and say, hey, tell, you know, he's not, he wasn't one of those guys that would like a lot of small talk.

After my first year at Montana Tech, the team I inherited, the year before I got there, they were 5 and 22. My first year, we were four in 23. So Judd calls me up 6 o'clock in the morning, Doug. This is true story. Hey, Kel, Judd here. I just wanted to let you know that you're the only coach in captivity that possibly could have taken Montana Tech from oblivion to obscurity.

Got to go, Kel. I want to get to Montana Tech at a second. You mentioned the National Championship game. Of course, it's the game that changed college basketball for, forever. What was like? I was a great assistant. Obviously, I didn't get to travel, but I was there for all the practices. And I was there when they got back.

You know, a grad assistant under Judd, Doug, was probably right under the senior manager. You know, I was really good at, back then, they didn't have white boards, had chalk boards. So I was really good at erasing the chalk boards, making sure Judd had chalk. Sometimes I would take the assistant cars and get them cleaned out. wash them and vacuum them.

That's the stuff I did. You know, pick up towels. When they get back from road trips, sometimes I'd go meet the managers and help them. You just did that stuff, but the value was just being there and absorbing and learning. You know, and I was actually kidding the candy,

so I learned from everybody. You know, Judd always had great things were legendary. The practices were so intense. But Judd was so serious. You know, I run my basketball camp today, exactly the way Judd ran his basketball camps at Michigan State. He did bed check every night on every kid. He had three roll calls a day.

He did every roll call. He never missed a minute. He would go to those gyms, and if those referees weren't running back and forth, he'd stop the game and lecture the referees. He was the most, I mean, I love Judd. I love getting his calls. And the last three or four years of his life, I tried to call him once or twice a month, and I think he appreciated those calls.

He had so many guys in his tree. We just played South Florida Saturday, and me and Brian Gregory before the game, we were talking about, Judge. Magic, for somebody who got to see Magic Johnson at that stage in his life, what was he like? Hardest work and practice player I've ever seen, Doug,

he, uh, Magic had a health class that got over about one o'clock. Practice didn't start until three. Remember the old tossbacks? Mm-hmm. You know, those nets that you threw to and it'll throw you back.

Magic would take those tossbacks and set them up around the gym. You know, he'd have his green practice jersey over on the side, and he would work out just an old gray t-shirt. And he would, by the time everybody got to the gym, for practice, Magic's t-show would be soaking wet.

But his favorite drill, my favorite drill I got from Judd was 4-on-4 cutthroat. And Judd would use cutthroats to teach certain parts of the game, where it was post-entry, cuts off post, ball screens, ball-screen defense,

whatever he was working on. But he would always give Magic the walk-ons, and he never lost. You know, Gary Telster was a ninth pick, I think, by the Detroit Pistons. Jay was in the first round pick by Dallas, but Magic

never lost a cutthroat game. He would make sure his team would win. I mean, he would get his guys if they weren't playing hard enough. He was the ultimate winner. When he played the UCLA Men's gym, though, he used to call the worst fouls ever, and it was like, well, that's magic.

You decide. Yeah. That's part of why he never lost. you you you you mentioned montana tech you show up there the team won five games and you mentioned but like listen your dad was a coach you played you're learning as a ga under under one of the all-time great legends you show up there um what was it what was your first head coaching experience like well let's go back um that summer would have been the summer of 1980 um um um Tom Izzo and I were commissioners in Judd's basketball camp.

Tom was a division two guy from Iron Mountain, Michigan, and I got to know. I think Tom might have been a year or two older than I was. But we're just working camp. And Judd called me in one day and said, hey, because I couldn't get a job. And I was finished my master's, and I was actually getting really. that I had a fellowship to work on my doctorate. And so I went in and talked to Judd and asked him, what did he think I could do?

And by this time, I could tell that, you know, you can tell when somebody likes you. Judge liked me for some reason. I think he felt sorry for me, to be honest with you. But he said, well, what the hell are you going to do with a doctor? What are you going to do with that? And he said, teach. You can teach without a doctorate.

So he said, why don't you go get a high school job? if you can't get a college job, then that's the way Jed was. And I was in the process of doing that. And then one day at camp he came in and said, you want to go to Montana? I knew I had heard of Montana, but I didn't know where it was as far as the map. I had to get a map down. But I restricted earnings coach Fred Paulson, who was an excellent, excellent coach,

got the head job at Montana Tech. And he asked me to go with him as his assistant. So I was 23 years old. I think I turned 24 that October. So this was in August we got there. Fred ran into some personal problems. And the school had never had a winning program. Doug, it was a bad job, hard job.

It's an engineering college. Every degree curriculum required a minimum of 30 credits of math. So you can see right away, it's a tough job to recruit to. So Fred left in December. the AD who was about 78 years old. He was part-time called me in and said you want to

you want to finish the year out. I didn't have any other options. Actually, I was applying for a junior college job. Judd Collin told me about a junior college job at Haskell Indian Junior College in Lawrence, Kansas. And I was talking to them about that.

Karen and I, we didn't have any kids yet, so you know, we were very mobile. could move. So I was thinking about going to Lawrence, Kansas, and then this thing popped open. And so I stayed and finished the year, and that was a tough year. We went four and 23. That was tough, but I had great kids. I still keep in touch with some of those guys. One of those guys owns his own oil and gas company over in San Antonio, so he's actually come to some games at University of Houston. How'd you turn around?

Well, I didn't know how to recruit. I'd never recruited before. And at Montana Tech, everything's on the phone. You know, you just, I just got out of these recruiting services. And I got left for you on some kids. My best players, I signed two weeks before classes start. Kids that had fallen through the cracks. I got to, the vice president at Montana Tech played college basketball, Carol

College. My first year at Montana Tech, the best basketball player in our conference was Bobby Petrino, who was to coach at Louisville. Wow. He was the player at a year in football, and he was the player to year in basketball. He could really play, Doug. Great shooter, tough. He was a great competitor, but he could really play basketball. We just got a bunch of kids, and just played hard.

We shared the ball. We played hard. and, you know, our games were in the 50s. We couldn't score very good. So he said, well, you guys play slow. No, we just can't score. You know, what's interesting is you had such incredible success at Wazoo. And at Washington State was a lot like Oklahoma, is a lot like Houston now,

where guys that, I don't know, people missed on or for whatever reason, they weren't, when you got to go in at Oklahoma, I mean, Hollis Price, obviously, was a very highly-touted recruit. And in Indiana, even, you were getting highly-towed-towed recruits. But it feels like, kind of like you as a coach, you have more success, or maybe, I don't know, you enjoy it more with the guys that have been told no or the guys that slipped through the cracks, even going back to Montana Tech. Is that a fair assessment to make of a 600-win career and that you've had a remarkable amount of success and maybe the most success with guys that other people missed on? The early years for sure. when I left Washington State I thought we were right there

at Arizona and UCLA that last because as Isaac Fontaine went on to be a 2,000 point score I had him as a freshman Nate Erman who got drafted by Utah was a freshman Mark Henderson who got drafted by Philadelphia 76ers was a sophomore and I had two other kids coming in we were going to be that's why I was so reluctant

to leave Washington State to go to Oklahoma because I thought we had a chance to win the pack 10. But I had really, really good players. But to start our first couple years, you're dead on. We had to find kids that just would lace them up and just flat out get after you. And that became the identity of our programs. Last thing, to go from where you started to now a 600 win coach, a guy who's been to a Final 4. And look, you know, we don't have time and nor is it worth it with the negative energy about the NCAA stuff. But how do you want, when people say Kelvin Samson's 600 win coach,

what do you want people to say about you as a coach and about your programs? I think the people that know you the best is your players. The people that don't know you are the ones that have the most opinions. So they're based on their opinion on what somebody else says. And what somebody else said is not always accurate. You know that as well as I do. I think the thing that I would want to be remembered for was that I always had my players' backs, that I supported them, that I got my greatest, I got my greatest satisfaction out of seeing their success,

just seeing them improve, just working with them on a couple things, and see them take that thing and become better. and then hear them from them, getting wedding invitations, telling them they had a new baby, I got a new house, I got a new job. I get those calls every day. I mean, literally, four or five times a week probably. When you coach at so many different schools, you have so many former players. And hearing from them is what I enjoy the most.

The wins and losses, you know, if you win, you're a good coach. If you lose, let's go get another one. I get that. That's our profession. You know, somebody said you're a bad guy, therefore you're a bad guy. I get that, too. But I've always dedicated myself to my players, helping them. And I think that's what I would want to be known for.

I will tell you this. Again, I know your time is crunched. When we played against you guys, and I told you this when you were at Indiana, we always hated that matchup zone because we could never seem to figure it out. your teams screened better than any team I've ever played. I never played against a team that screened as well. I literally meet like body-to-body contact. And they just competed.

And that's where we didn't like you, but it was a rivalry to which we actually respected you guys because we felt like our team, our players were better. And yet we could never, it wasn't, we could, we split like every series. You swept us one year. We swept you one year. But I always felt like we were like,

we had better play. players, why don't we beat them more? But it's because your team's played so hard and so cohesively, and I just, I'm always fascinated by how that's built. Yeah, I think if you don't have great players, and you've got to find something to be great in, you know, it's like cutting. That's something that, like I was, I spent 30 minutes yesterday and practice on accelerating through your cuts, just like jump-stopping into ball screens.

There's just a little thing. makes such a big difference. I read a quote from Martin Luther King that talks about, you know, dreams are big and, you know, small things is what, small things is what makes such a big difference in somebody's life. Last night, a blown call changed a game.

This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves.

Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action, with stories told by the people who live there. them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist,

Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing and we're still chasing it and we don't know when we've done enough because people scoreboard watch life becomes about wins and losses Steve Burns Dustin Ross because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth or are you a good person because you're afraid because that's two different intentions bro absolutely and that that's two different levels of trust I want you to

just really be a good person join me Keer games is we have real conversation about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. What's up, guys? This is Clever Taylor the 4th. And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker, this linebacker walks up to me, he goes, A, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? quarterback on office blue with 42.

Hey, Rhett. My mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Ms. Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas.

And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defining the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game.

We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson,

we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing That man, hell get the flying He ran up the court, licking his fingers Why he got the ball, like You go through a training camp with that, I said You figure it out real quick Get your ass up and down the court

And you're gonna get the ball So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts And that was so apropos, I think, to the way We try to coach our team here And all our teams But I remember those Oklahoma states games. I had a chance. We went back there and played this year. I had a chance to see

Coach Sutton. And I told my wife, I said, you know what, Taryn? You know, as a coach, Doug, when you're coaching a game, you don't always feel the other coach. I always felt Eddie. I always thought he was the best coach that I ever coached against because of the way he prepared his teams. He was, he taught me a lot. I mean, I know I've said this before, but, you know, I was 37 years old and I was coming into a great conference. And when your biggest rival has a Hall of Famer and a legend down there, I watched, I

watched Eddie's teams, you know, and I, I learned, I learned a lot from him. When I was at Washington State, I learned a lot from Ralph Miller. he was the coach at Oregon State when I got there. Those two guys taught me a lot. Judd Heath Coke, Ralph Miller, and 87. Those are three great, great coaches to learn from, and I learned a lot from all three of them. Well, congratulations on the success, on the 600 wins.

Here's the 600 more. Thanks so much for your time. Beverage Sportsbook wants to invite you to discover the complete sports betting experience. The foundation of that experience is a massive number of betting options on nearly every regulated sporting event around the world. Add on top of that live streaming of sports every day. There's almost always a live match to watch on BetRivers Sportsbook right in your phone. BetRivers features top-tier customer service ready to answer your questions anytime day or night.

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The Aspiration Zero MasterC is issued by Beneficial State Bank pursuant to license by MasterC International Incorporated. Beneficial State Bank member FDIC 2021. Terms and conditions apply. Visit Aspiration.com slash zero for more information. All right, let's turn to college basketball kind of quickly here. And I did get a chance to see Michigan up close. And just a kind of couple quick thoughts on their roster. Obviously, they're built more to play great defense than they are offense.

Once Xavier Simpson became their point guard, it changed them forever. Now, you put Xavier Simpson and Charles Matthews and Jordan Poole in a back court. And John Teske's are really good. rim protector. He's averaging like two and a half blocks a game. And Brasdakis is not a bad defender as a freshman. I mean, he's a big physical body. But if he's your worst defender on the floor, like, and he had really well coached, like, that's a good defensive team. And then you also have livers and, you know, they're using Eli Brooks a little bit so you get a little bit more of a scoring point guard. I thought Austin Davis did a decent job against Wisconsin.

And what's interesting, look, Braus Dacus is a guy who eventually, who eventually will probably be an NBA player. I don't think it'll be this year. I think it'll be next year. But he's big enough to be one of these hybrid guys. He's pretty athletic. He's 6-7-215. Got to be a little bit better shooter.

Got to understand shots, likes a little more. He and Jordan Poole are fantastic. You know, like people are on to Jordan Poole because he's shot so much against Wisconsin. Wisconsin. Brosdecas was in foul trouble and was kind of a no-show. And, you know, Simpson made some shots and made some plays, but he's not a score. They just, I'm not convinced they have enough scoring. Matthews is a really good kind of mid-range pull-up guy, but he is not a pure score.

It's fascinating to see the transformation of John B-line, his team from being like unguardable in terms of their offense, their movement, their spacing, to being one that has to generate offense off of their defense. And they turn the ball over a bunch against Wisconsin. The one thing about Xavier Simpson, which is interesting, and I experienced a little bit of this, when you get into college and team stop guarding you and then you make shots and now they are guarding you, you'll lose your finishing shots. He's never, he's not a natural score in any way.

He's a great defensive player, great defensive player. And I mean, just tougher than a $2 steak. But he has to learn now how to, it's one thing to learn to think. finish. It's another thing to learn to finish when guys might be playing a little defense on your finishing shots. It's one thing to learn to shoot. He's reworked his shooting for him and he's shooting a reasonable 33%. But how can you shoot when people are actually guarding you? I still think Michigan State is the best team in the Big Ten. They just went out and thought Maryland. Cassius Winston's the best point card. Three best teams, Maryland and Michigan and Michigan State have

three best point cards. But I think Michigan State, who's the best offense in the league and still pretty good defensively, I think they're the best team. But it's fascinating to see this transformation of Michigan basketball, right? Fascinating to see it go from an offensive juggernaut to one that is really guarding people. And look, they didn't play well. They turned the ball over, I think 19 times against Wisconsin. And had a shot to win it. Had a legit shot to win the game.

Last thing is, watching North Carolina. Carolina against Virginia Tech. And they thump Virginia Tech. And I know that there have been times in which they haven't played well. But the emergence of Nasir Little, and it's only one game. And it's only one game where he hits two threes and he only played 20 minutes, but 23 points, six rebounds, three assists in 20 minutes. If you watched him play early in the year where it felt like it didn't matter how many minutes he played, he was going to get a shot up the first time he touched it, where he's hunting shots more. It's really impressive what Roy Williams has been able to do with him

And I don't know if he's gotten him to buy in Or it's just patience or it's the kid learning to have patience And improving as a perimeter shooter But he looks so much more comfortable Within what they were trying to do offensively And look Luke May didn't play poorly But Luke May just does not have the upside of it I'm still fascinated to see all the versatility

The different lineups in North Carolina could use And their offense is much more opened up than it was early on at North Carolina under Roy Williams. And, you know, they were running the same stuff they ran at Kansas. But in terms of being a kind of closing horse and all the freshmen this year, Nassir Little is a guy that is, watch his tape. He's progressively getting closer to what many of the high school recruiting analysts thought he could be.

And, you know, playing the four, obviously, is going to give him a massive mismatch. Carolina's been impressive with how they've improved here as of late. Last thing here I want to share with you on the pod is how, and many of you are coaches or players or whatever, and we've talked before about transferring and why whether you're against or not, Jordan Tucker transferred from Duke. He only played two games at Duke.

Now, had he stuck it out by the end of last season when he transferred, he would have got minutes. They needed shooting off the bench, and they probably would have had a better season. But he knew he was coming in, and they didn't think that he was going to get the run. And so he transferred to Butler. And when I talked to LaValle Jordan, he was like, look,

the ball comes off his hand just better than everybody else. But I struggle to find minutes for him because, you know, our three starting guards are just so much better defensively. And then, you know, McDermott, who's my starting four man, is really a three. And he's better defensively. He may not be the shooter, but he's a very, very good shooter in his own right. Maybe he's a better overall player. and so I struggled to find minutes for him.

And this is where you kind of stick it out. It's a long season and you buy in if you know you're good enough. And eventually it'll turn your way. I don't know if you paid attention to Butler, but over the past two games, they've played McDermott and Jordan Tucker together. And then it, you know, all of a sudden now, Kamar Baldwin had 30 against St. John's.

They combined Tucker and Bulletin. Baldwin for 54 points, and they beat the Johnny's. Now, that doesn't mean all their problems are solved. You know, they're relatively unathletic at center. And they did just beat DePaul, but they beat DePaul by 18 after trailing early in that game. And they beat St. Johns, who's probably the most talented veteran team in the league. And now they got Villanova coming up at the time in which I'm recording this. I think they're going to beat Villanova.

I could be dead wrong because they struggle at that four spot, guarding anybody and really rebounding. And that's where Villanova will, with Eric Pascal, especially when he's playing the four, will expose you. But it's just interesting to me on how coaches come into the season thinking, you know what I'm going to do? We're going to be a defensive-minded team. We're going to climb India defensively because we have, you know, we have Aaron Thompson

and Henry Badley to go along with Kamar Baldwin and we'll have the best three guards defending the ball. The problem was, can't score. they just can't score. And, you know, at some point, they do award championships or NCAA tournaments and teams that have more points than the opponent. And a little bit of it is, hey, you know what? If you can make shots, they'll find a place for you. But Jordan Tucker is kind of quietly averaging 10.5 points a game in only 19.5 minutes a game.

And his production continues to improve. Last three games, all in double figures, 12, 19, 24. I'll be interested to see what he does against Villanova. but I think Butler has figured out who they are. And sometimes it takes you to mid-January, sometimes it takes to February before you find that out. All right, that's it for all, Ball. Again, I encourage you to listen to my radio show,

which is daily, 3 to 6 Eastern Time, 12 to 3 Pacific on Fox Sports Radio, Fox Sports Radio.com or Sirius XM. We're on, what, 217 and 203, check us out. Make sure you tweet this out, send it to your friend. We really appreciate you listening. I'm Doug Gottlie, and this is all ball. When you're ready to place a bet on today's games, do it with the most trusted name in online sports betting,

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This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source,

the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice. on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slical Life 12 in the TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement home. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, guys? This is Clivert Taylor the Fourth.

And on my podcast, The Cliverts Show, I'm bringing you conversations about all kinds of stuff. Like being an internet famous referee. We're in the middle of a game. This linebacker walks up to me, he goes, hey, ref, my mom wants you to wave at her. What? Time out. Look. Quarterback on office blue with 42.

Hey, Wreck, my mama want you to weigh better. What? Hey, Miss Parker. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas.

And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast point game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow.

Then after that game seven, Marquis coming to you, he's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball. So listen to Point Game

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.