The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Gottlieb: UCLA coaching search; Kyle Kuzma's potential; Guest - Rusty LaRue on playing with Duncan, MJ, and making the '98 Bulls

Episode Date: January 11, 2019

Subscribe here to the All Ball with Doug Gottlieb Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2.  This week, Gottlieb discusses potential Steve Alford replacements at UCLA, challenges the program faces going forward, and Kyle Kuma's potential with the Lakers. Doug also talks hoops with former Wake Forest multi-sport star Rusty LaRue,on his prolific collegiate career, playing with Tim Duncan, and his path to earning a roster spot on Jordan's '98 Bulls title team; New York Times hoops writer Adam Zagoria talks college ball and the state of the Knicks. Subscribe here to the All Ball with Doug Gottlieb Podcast https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/all-ball-with-doug-gottlieb/id1358843497?mt=2.   Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline. And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward. At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner

of IHart Women's Sports. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hardway with your favorite therapist and host, Kear Games. This space is about black men's experiences, having honest conversations that's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men carry a suit or armor? It's to the world that you not to be played with. And just because you have the capability that does not mean that you need to. Listen and learn the hard way on the AHA radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, welcome in.

This is All Ball, the All Basketball podcast on the Heard Podcast Network. And man, this is a good one. How do I know? Well, I just know. I have two guests for you on this version of All Ball. One is Adam Zagoria. He, if you know anything about Hoops, you know Zags, has his own blog. And I think he does an amazing job.

You can see him on SNY TV. You can read his work in the New York Times or he has his own blog. He covers high school, high school recruiting, college pro. Like, he's a ball guy. So I think you'll like some of the Q&A, including his thoughts on UCLA basketball. I'll give you my thoughts in a second. And then, Rusty Leroux is, is. is my kind of featured long-form interview guest on this version of all ball.

Rusty was a great player, but more than anything, maybe the greatest modern-day ACC athlete ever. And by that, I mean, Charlie Ward played football and basketball at Florida State and won the Heisman Trophy, so he was more decorated. And obviously, as a football player, more impactful, you would think. And then, of course, Charlie Ward played more in the NBA than Rusty Leroux. Rusty also played baseball, and Rusty set a bunch of NCAA records as a quarterback at Wake Forest. So he played in the NBA with the Bulls was part of Michael Jordan's last championship team.

Played obviously with Tim Duncan, Randolph Childress, played for Dave Odom, coached with two different regimes, Dino Gaudio and Jeff Bezdelik at his All-Moddra at Wake Forest, and then had the worst possible tragedy. you can have as a parent happen to him when his son Riley tragically died at just 19 years old. We're going to get to all of it with Rusty upcoming. So sit back, relax, and when you get done with this podcast, make sure you know I downloaded, you subscribed and you rated, but send it to a friend. Like you're going to, this is, I love doing this.

I love that you've spent some time because in your order to get a podcast, you've got to spend a little bit of time searching it out. And once you do, it's going to be a little bit of investment. So sit back, relax. I think you'll enjoy this one. A couple of notes. One, you can always listen to the Doug Gottlieb show. That is 3 to 6 Eastern Time, 12 to 3 Pacific.

On Fox Sports Radio, any of our hundreds of affiliates. We're also on Sirius XM. On XM, it's 203. Series is 217. That's 3 to 6 Eastern Time, 12 to 3 Pacific. Or just go to Fox Sports Radio.com, and you can find a local affiliate or download the IHeart Radio app. So there's how you can.

get me. And I'll put this out on my Twitter page as well. I had a Philip Lindsay interview that I think you're going to love. If you like great personal stories, you like the Philip Lindsay, who's a pro bowler as an undrafted rookie running back, first ever undrafted rookie running back to be a pro bowler in pro bowl history. Anyway, that aside, let me get to a couple of college basketball topics that I have one NBA thought for you. The college basketball topics, let's start with UCLA. UCLA's basketball job is open. And one of the things, that I've learned steadily as things have gone on. Part of it is you were established relationships.

I've covered Steve Alford. He and I had butted heads when he was at Iowa. I covered him when he's in New Mexico, including their upset loss to Harvard. I thought he did a great job in New Mexico. I thought it was a little bit of a weird hire at UCLA, but I thought, all right, maybe it could work. And whether it was not having Craig Neal noodles on his staff,

whether it's the fact that he never really fit in to L.A. Hoops, I actually thought they were better coached offensively and at times when he was at New Mexico. Like, I don't think he's a bad coach. And I think he's a very good coach. But some of it is the college game has evolved some. And so some of his styles maybe didn't work as much. I don't know. But for whatever reason, it just didn't work at UCLA. I don't like firing coaches midseason, but the team had seemed to have quit on him. And now, UCLA has a chance to win a lot of games, a lot of games this year because Pacto is not great. And though they have young players, they have young talented players.

And I think it's going to be fascinating to see how they finish the year. Now, I'm not going to sit here and profess to know what Dan Guerrero is thinking or tell you specifically what Dan Guerrero should do. But I will tell you that I feel like I know more about UCLA basketball than most anybody who covers it on a national level outside. Obviously of Steve Lavon, who I work with at Fox. Steve was the head coach of UCLA. So even more so than Sean Farnham, who I like Farnie a lot. We'll have him on the podcast.

Farney played at UCLA. He started as a walk on and became a team captain and scholarship player later on his career. And Farnie lives in L.A. and knows the UCLA posse pretty well. But growing up in Northern California, he didn't know it like I know it. Like my people who know me, my dad was a former college coach.

And we were extremely close to the has- Whether it was 2-2 hazard, that's Rashid Hazard, who's now an assistant in the NBA, or is Jalilal Hazard, that's Doc, his older brother, who's a great music producer. They played with us in A.U. We were season ticket holders. And then when Jim Herrick got the job, my dad was really close with Jim and Mark Godfried and Lorenzo Romar. And then when Lab got the job, like, look, we were always kind of tight with UCLA. My sister was a cheerleader.

Brother went there. So I know a lot about the program is. is interesting because on one hand, you have the fan base that has the expectations of being competitive and successful at the level of the Dukes, the Kentucky is the Kansas of the world, and even Arizona. And yet they don't show up for midweek games or games that they feel like don't matter. Like there's a certain kind of arrogance to it. There was, I think, there's always been kind of a university arrogance in UCLA.

They wouldn't redo Polly forever. They hadn't had a practice facility until, what, this last year and a half. And when you just, and they weren't paying coaches, so you just show up and say, hey, we're UCLA, you know, why doesn't everybody love us? Why aren't we competing for national championships? Ben Howlin obviously came and went to three straight final fours. And even then, people didn't seem to totally love him or his style or appreciate him. And some of it was, you know, Ben turned off the wrong people in AU and what, it's more complex. Maybe we'll do a whole podcast on UCLA basketball.

It's really a fascinating thing. But knowing the history of it, knowing how hard it is, but also knowing that they do have the financial resources, they have the arena done, they had the practice facility done. Like now it should be a great time to hire a coach. And there's some pretty good ones available. Fred Hoyberg, potentially Rick Petino. And I think there are other coaches that would, that previously wouldn't have looked at UCLA, but now maybe they will. The issue is, L.A. has evolved. For 20 years, you didn't have a football team, professional football team.

Now you have two. And while the Chargers haven't hit, that still diverts a lot of your attention in the fall. USC football while a mess is a big thing because of how competitive and successful they were for 15 years. They're under Pete and under some of the people that followed him. UCLA football. Chip Kelly finally has a facility on campus, finally paid at a rate commensurate with the top, level coached in the PAC 12. They weren't very good this year, but super young. And so even within the school, there's a lot of attention paid there. Students across the country have changed in terms of

how much they watch and listen and pay attention to college basketball. Getting students to come to games is hard anywhere, even in college towns, let alone in L.A. And if you know about the diversity at UCLA, like, look, there's a strong international student base. That's not always easy to get them to come to a college game when you're playing Washington State. You know what I mean? Whereas when you're at one of those other legit elite programs, you turn the lights on, you say there's a basketball game, and Fog Allen Fieldhouse is filled, or Rupp Arena is filled, or Cameron Indoor Stadium is filled.

Like, it's kind of a happening. And now you have LeBron in L.A., and the thought is that the Clippers are going to get maybe a Kauai Leonard, and even for basketball fans, it's hard to get attention. So I think it's a better job in terms of the resources, but it's a harder job in terms of getting people to care than it used to be. It just is.

I mean, I could go further. One of the things that they've struggled with, Steve Alford's struggle with, was chartering flights. And while you may say, hey, you're in L.A., you can fly nonstop to any one of these Pac-12 cities. You can. But sometimes in the Pac-12, you play on a Wednesday and a Sunday, and going to class is, in fact, important.

So, you know, you've got to leave Tuesday night, and then you play Wednesday night. If you charter, you could actually leave day of the game, although most teams don't. You leave Tuesday night, you get done with the game Wednesday, you fly back Wednesday night, you go to school Thursday, Friday, and then if you play Saturday, you leave Friday night. Or if you play Sunday, you don't leave until Saturday. You only miss one day at class. Whereas if you're going to fly commercial, you've got to fly up Sunday night, and then you play the game Wednesday, and then you travel back Thursday.

You don't go to class until Thursday afternoon where most kids don't have class and then Friday. It's just different. And the big time programs, all charter. They just do. The big time ones. And a lot of the smaller time ones, the higher level, what used to be mid-majors, the cratins of the world, the Xavier's of the world, they charter now. Why?

Because class important, time is important. And some of this has been screwed up by the new TV deal where it used to be you'd go and play Oregon and Oregon State on a Thursday and a Saturday. So you travel up on a Wednesday, you do Thursday. Friday you have, you know, your tutors, you fake like you're going to class or whatever. do all your stuff there and then you play your game Saturday, you come back Sunday. Now the schedule is so mish-mosh, it's very, very difficult. So there's still some challenges there in terms of travel and budgeting, and will they pay

assistant coaches? And you might be sitting there, you might sit there and say, well, why does that matter? Well, look, if you're an assistant coach at Oregon State and you make $250,000, $300,000, like, wow, that's a lot. At Oregon State, you get a nice house and you can live 10 minutes from campus. So you're always around. You're always available. If you're at UCLA and you make $250,000, $300,000, you can't afford to live close unless you're renting an apartment or renting a house.

You know, even Steve Alford lived, you know, with bad traffic, 35, 40 minutes away from campus, which is just outside of Bel Air, right next to Brentwood, right next to Beverly Hills. Like, it's a very, very nice and west side of L.A. is very expensive area. The difference between that and, say, a USC. USC, you might make the same amount of money as an assistant coach. and USC is an inferior part of town in south central Los Angeles, but you can live in downtown LA, which is now hip and happening. And if you need money for down payment on a house or a condo that you want to buy, USC being a private school can give you an interest-free loan.

And so it becomes a better job because you can live better. And then if you move on from USC, you sell your house, you make money, you pay back their interest-free loan, and then you've also made money in addition to the money you were making as an assistant coach. So it's a challenging job. I do this. Look, if I'm UCLA, I take a shot at the moon, the stars, and the sun. Has Greg Marshall topped out at Wichita State? He would not have, he'd probably have a tough time adjusting a little bit to L.A. You know, being a guy who played college basketball in Virginia in Division 3 and then worked his way up and was dominant at Winthrop.

And after being at College of Charleston, his assistant in, you know, Wichita State, like, it's a bit of a lifestyle adjustment. But he's a great basketball coach. There have been talk about, hey, why not Jay Wright? I don't know if Jay Wright says no. He's won two national titles. And hell, I think had Dante DeVincenzo and Spelman come back, they might win another one this year, or at least compete for another one this year.

So he's built a juggernaut there. But do you feel like, hey, I've topped out? I've climbed the mountain twice, conquered the mountain twice. Why not try L.A.? LeBron did. Why can't I? Those are calls I would make. Hell, I'd call Tom Izzo.

Why not? Hey, you want to come out here and want to take a shot at UCLA and changing our culture? It doesn't mean that those guys are going to say, yes, but the idea that we fall back on, I think Patino is the best modern day college basketball coach there is. One at Providence, embrace the three-point shot, one at Kentucky, dominant recruiting, incredible depth,

one at Louisville, and did so when Kentucky was good. So I think he's amazing. And I would kick the tires on that. The problem with it is the perception of that. And you have to understand UC schools between, you know, the board regents. I just, I don't know. I don't think, you know, PCU, which is a movie is there's a lot of PCU in UCLA. And so I don't see it happening.

But from my basketball perspective, Patino's amazing. He's an amazing coach. and he's brought in incredible assistant coaches wherever he's been. It'd just be a fascinating thing to see. But if I'm UCLA, I don't sell myself short. I try all the big-name coaches that might not be happy where they are. And see, Quinn Snyder with Utah Jazz. I know he failed ultimately at Missouri, but he's learned, he's matured,

he's been remarried, and he's a great coach with the Jazz. Now, the timing might not work out. in addition to Fred Hoyberg, who everybody, and people are going to say Roe Watson, I'm not against Earl Watson. The idea that you would have all the recent alumni, that whole basketball family reunited and energized in recruiting. Like, I'd be willing to see that. But I got to see if I'm Dan Guerrero, the plan, what's your staff like? How's it going to work? And then you have to get Casey Wasserman on board.

You have to get all those other donors on board. because you only win in college sports when everyone's pulling in the same direction. President, board, AD, coaches, et cetera. And once, if you can get that, I think UCLA, while it will never be what it was, can get back to being competitive nationally. And there's no reason that they in Arizona can't be at the top of the PAC 12 every year. Now, will they fill the arena? Some of that does fall on the shoulders of UCLA students and UCLA's fans.

They're hyper-critical of the coaches. They always have been. You grew up in Southern California, and they didn't like hazard. They didn't like Herrick and they wanted to get rid of Herk. People forget that had Tai said he not made that running layup against Missouri, Herrick gets fired the next day. That happens. But they did.

They go on and win national championship. And then ultimately, they ended up getting them for, you know, falsifying some expense reports, or whatever, so other nonsense. They just never loved and embraced Herrick. And as good as Ben Howland was, there was a lack of love and embrace there. Just no one's been able to kind of figure that place out. And we'll see how Murray Bartow does the rest of the season. He's a really good man.

And obviously his name carries a ton of weight there. And they've played better since he's been there. Although, I think most of you know, my brother's in assistant Oregon State. I do hope the beavers sweep this weekend. And then I get a chance to see undefeated Pac-12. Beavers take on Arizona State this upcoming Thursday on Fox Sports One. This is the all-ball podcast. Quick thought on the NBA.

and then we'll get you to our guest for this week. On Wednesday night, Kyle Cousman went for 41 points and just three quarters against the Lakers. We do this thing when we evaluate players. And I've obviously recently come under a little bit of fire. Steph Curry wrote a piece on the Players Tribune. And it talked about how when he came out for the draft, I undervalued him. And it's accurate. I did think Johnny Flynn had a greater ceiling.

I thought Johnny Flynn could be the next Kevin Johnson. And look, no one wants to mention that Johnny Finn played in the triangle, which is a terrible setup for how he plays. And Johnny Flynn hurt his hip. And that's why he doesn't play basketball anymore. But I thought Flynn and I thought Ricky Rubio had a higher ceiling. I did think that Jeff Teague was a really good player and that he was more athletic, had a better first step. Look, the league evolved. Steph got better.

I was wrong in my evaluation. Not as wrong as the Sports Center tweet would make it out to be if you actually go back and read my work. but like, look, sometimes you miss guys an evaluation. Totally fair. But I think one of the other, the biggest mistake we make as guys are trying to evaluate what a player will be in the NBA. And listen, guys make this mistake in evaluating high school players and what they'll be in college as well, is work ethic and role and what they're, you know, as Kyle Coosman is the example.

So Coos plays. at Utah, and he plays inside, and he was a post-up player. He wasn't allowed to shoot three-point shots. And so while he's continued to improve and become a dynamic score in the NBA, he's got to become a better defender. I don't know if he'll become a better passer, but he has to be a little bit more willing of a passer. But he's a dynamic score inside and out.

He's tremendous. He hasn't, he didn't shoot college threes. Now he's shooting pro-threes. And his work ethic, which I do think people understood, and that's why he went in the first round of the draft. His work ethic is so good, so incredibly locked in that I will guarantee this. By year five, he'll be a 41, 42 percent three-point shooter. He just hasn't done it.

But when we evaluated Kyle Kuzman, we thought, all right, he's 23 years old as a rookie. This is kind of who he is, as opposed to 19-year-old kids. Like when Devin Booker came out or Terrell Harris came out, we thought they had more room for growth. Even at 23, you can have room for growth. if your style of play limited what you are able to do and what you worked on. So it does make for a really hard evaluation. And Steph is another example of that because he only played point guard one year at Davidson. And in addition, the fact the role of the point guard has changed since he's been in the NBA

and changed based upon how he played. It wasn't that he wasn't able to is that, I think was Jason Richard, was an outstanding point guard, a borderline pro before he got hurt, point guard. And that's why he was playing the two. but not having evaluated him on what he could work on and what he can prove on, ultimately was my fatal flaw in that evaluation. So that makes sense? Hope it makes sense.

Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending. Opinions are flying. And nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise,

breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves. their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sportslice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 and the TikTok podcast. network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of Mental Health Awareness Month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped up in the chase that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch.

Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on Earth? Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust.

I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, as we have real conversations about healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free, Our Heart Radio app. Search, learn the hard way, and listen now. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect.

We were God's chosen kingdom on earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back. Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, meeting the president of Turkey. I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies, I've ever come across. When Jacob met Levan this went to a billion dollar fraud. But with two kings from entirely different worlds,

just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the Aihar Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. you get your podcast.

Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On hurdle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WMBA standout, Kate Martin, and rising hockey star, Layla Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that.

Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like. you, but don't ever feel like you don't feel on. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladeki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world, like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about

showing up even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. So this week's guest is, I think, inarguably, in modern sports in the ACC, definitely in Wake Forest history, you think, hey, who's the greatest modern day athlete? And people appoint to, obviously, Michael Jordan, two sport athlete, people point to. Charlie Ward, also in the ACC, or, of course, when you mention Wake Forest, everybody thinks of

Tim Duncan. What about a guy who played and starred in three sports in college at Wake Forest, including setting passing records in the ACC and the NCAA and, of course, then playing in the NBA and basketball. Rusty Leroux, he's kind of to join us on the all-ball podcast. Rusty, how are you? I'm great, Doug, Greg. How about yourself? I'm well.

Have you ever had anybody put into context that way that you very could well be the, the greatest modern-day ACC athlete? Well, you know, I mean, every now and then somebody will kind of joke with me about that, because obviously you know me well, and I'm not a physical specimen. But I did. I had a good career. So I've, you know, obviously done a lot of things. Some people haven't done. All right.

So you grew up in Greensboro, North Carolina. You're all state in three sports. What was the process like of deciding, hey, I want to try and play three sports in college? Well, you know, I mean, I just grew up playing multiple sports. I think everybody did back, you know, it's a lot harder now. But back when I was young, I started, you know, basketball and baseball when I was six and football when I was eight. And it was kind of something that was natural.

You know, I went season to season. And when the time came for college, I got recruited by a lot of schools, more big schools for football. But basketball kind of, I don't know if it had always been my favorite, but it was something I didn't really want to give up. And when I was actually in high school, and I committed to Wake actually before my, right into my junior year on a football scholarship. And part of the agreement was I would definitely play basketball.

And after I committed to that, the actual baseball coach had come out and watch me play some. My junior year and my senior year, he said, hey, if you ever want to play baseball, we'd love to have you as well. So it was kind of one of the things where I knew I was going to play too, but it, you know, kind of toyed with the idea of playing a little baseball as well. Okay, so you get to Wake Forest. How do you do it, right?

Because I was actually talking to my son last night because I knew we were going to talk. And he was saying, Dad, what sports should I play? He plays, you know, basketball, baseball, football, tennis. Yep. And I've done a little wrestling before, whatever. And I was like, well, we'll just kind of try and figure it out as you go. As you get a row. How'd you do it in college?

It seems like a crazy juggling act. Yeah, I mean, it was, I don't know, I probably couldn't have done it many places other than Wake, just because it's such a small school. And I, you know, and I grew up 20 minutes from campus, so I had a lot of family and friends and supportive people that, you know, I wasn't being shipped off across the country. So I was right here in my backyard with family, friends, support. And for me, it was just kind of, you know, getting up every day and doing what was on my calendar. I had great coaches who let me play the sport I was in. I understand all that. We're like, okay, so you show up, like you have to show up what, summer for football, right?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I was in summer school all summer, getting ready for football. But, you know, basketball coaches weren't, you know, they understood when I was a football, they let me be with football. Now, you know, obviously I got in the gym, some of my own for hoops, so I wouldn't be behind. But, you know, football had me during football and literally the day football ended, heck, my senior year, I played in an exhibition basketball game the same day. I played in my last football game. So when it ended, I went to basketball, and football left me alone, other than telling me to eat, so I wouldn't lose weight.

And then when basketball ended, I went right back to football. And actually the year I played baseball, I had to do spring football first. And so I didn't get to go out to baseball until spring football was over. And you guys were good at basketball, too, so you're playing basketball deep into March, right? It's not like – it's not like you're over at the ACC tournament. You're like, all right, well, now I can wrap it up. then we get ready for spring football. Like that,

I mean, I, like, listen, this is on a much lower level. When I was in high school, my freshman year, we go to the state,

we go to the state tournament in basketball. We get done. Of course, in California, you start playing baseball in January. We get done and it's nearly the first of March and kind of everybody had positions, right?

So, yeah. You know, it's, and again, it's not like you're playing a position where you're like, oh, we'll stick him at wide receiver at tight end.

You're playing quarterback. Right. Right. Right. Right. that's going on. Like, that seems like, and you're also an excellent student. That seems like a lot of mental gymnastics.

It is. I mean, it's tough. I mean, I'd say it was easy. I mean, I guess I felt like it wasn't too difficult because of someone I had done a lot, but I didn't have a lot of, you know, I didn't do a lot of extracurricular activities either. I was pretty much, you know, books and ball. I was, my current wife, we started dating my freshman year of high school, so I wasn't, I wasn't spent a lot of time on that.

you know, I was pretty much, that's like I told my boys, you know, it's books and ball for me. And obviously football being on scholarship, that took up more of my time. I don't think I probably was as effective basketball player in college as I could have been if I would have only focused on basketball. When I was able to focus just on basketball, obviously I had a chance to play professionally and win a championship with the Bulls because, you know, I grew a lot as a player, you know, when I was able to focus on it individually. and because football leads right up to basketball,

when basketball ended, it went right it back into spring football, you know, that was what paid the bills and had me on scholarships, so I pretty much had to spend the most time on that. Okay, so when you're playing at Wake Forest, what was Dave Odom like to play for? You know, Dave is a great coach, first of all. You know, he was great for me because he was a very kind of no-frills guy.

I mean, I was a hard worker and put him my job. time. I mean, I didn't play hardly any of the freshmen. I played, you know, sparingly as a sophomore. I was the sixth man as a junior, and then I started as a senior. And his style of play was a good fit for me. Obviously, we had some great players, Randolph, Childress, Tim Duncan. And so I was a good key piece to go along with him. But I just enjoyed he's a great guy, you know, as you've probably been around him some. Great storyteller. And just it's a good fit for me personally as a player when I was coming through college.

What was Tim Duncan like in college? Tim, you know, Tim's a worker. I mean, Tim's quiet. Just kind of one of those guys who keeps to himself, but unbelievably, you know, competitive and just freakishly skilled like most great players are. his hand-eye coordination and ability to see things and do things. You know, he spent a lot of time with me and my family because, you know, being from the Virgin Islands and me living 15 minutes away,

he spent most Thanksgiving and Christmases at our house, along with Ricky Peral who was from Spain and just a down-to-earth guy. You know, I mean, not flashy, but just, golly. I mean, you look at the box court to end the game, you'd be like, man, you know, 29 and 19. and you try to think of a play that stood out during the game. Maybe there was a, you know, 8 ESPN highlight, and you're just like, nope, he just put in work and wore his hard hat and brought his Lodge Pell and did work. Did you know when you play, like honestly, right?

And you are an incredibly honest person. Did you have any idea he would go down as one of the all-time greatest players? Probably not until about my, probably about my junior year. really because, you know, as a freshman, you saw all the glimpses, but he was just, you know, kind of this young kid. And, I mean, but I would get to see him in pickup. We'd play pickup, and he would bring the ball up to court. You know what I mean?

By, I mean, just, he stuff he probably wasn't doing the game because it was a little out of character and it was, you know, maybe too much of a highlight. But probably about his junior year, I knew he would go down as one of the best basketball players at Wake ever. Did I know he would have such a long? NBA career, you know as well as anybody. That's a crapshoot, man.

So many times it's where you go, what team you get with. I mean, he would have been successful anywhere, but getting a chance to go to San Antonio and be in one place. And that place being such a fit for his personality, too, I think contributed to it. Randolph Childress, you were on the team when you guys made the run through the ACC tournament, and who was it who he made fall down and then he did the finger to have him get up? Jeff McKinness. Yeah, it was.

It was too chay, right? It was Jeff McKinness. Yeah. Yep, yep. And, you know, I mean, golly, that, anybody who's a basketball fan, if you had a chance to watch that ACC tournament, you know, he was just unbelievable. You know, I mean, just doing everything, scoring it will, pretty much unstoppable. And just, you know, that's a grueling, you know, week. You know, I mean, you play three straight days and get some pretty good frequent players to be able to do that and withstand the pressure and intensity. and what he put in was pretty amazing. Why wasn't he a better pro?

You know, that's a hard question. You know, I think that Randolph is an extremely talented score. You know, he's probably, he's really at the NBA level, he's kind of an undersized two guard. Maybe born before his time? Like, again, like, like 6-2 now. I don't know if he shot it well enough from three, but I also think guys would shoot it better from three now.

than they did going back then. But, you know, like, as long as you can guard, if you can score and you can, you don't have to, it's a little bit more positionless. You don't have to be as much a one or a two. Combos seem to have a longer life now and get more minutes now. They do. And, I mean, obviously, somebody comes down to where you go

and when you get drafted by. And I think, you know, obviously the defensive end of the court is a big deal at that level. But I also think for him, you know, I think he went overseas and he was making great money and he was able to just be who he is, which is a great score and, you know, didn't have a desire to come back and try it again. You know, I don't know that he ever really, after his first couple years, even tried to come back and make a roster. I think he found a niche and was making good money and decided to have a really long overseas career, which a lot of guys do.

So, I mean, really for me, I think the only thing I could say is I think he was able to stay, You know, you kind of have to change. You have to find them, there's not many guys who can keep the same role they have in high school and college. Right. And guys who have the same role in college that have an NBA. I mean, LeBron James, yeah. You know, but most guys have to change their role as they go up a level. And some guys do it better than others.

And some guys decide to have, you know, they don't want to change their role. And maybe they can't play at that level with that same role. I mean, I average 25 a game in high school. I wouldn't go do that at wake, you know. And so a lot of people ask how I had to. NBA career. I was, I didn't really have to change my role a whole lot in NBA from what I had in college. You know, I was a 10-point-of-game guy, make open shots, dig in, defend guys, compete, be a heady player, and I was able to fill a roster spot out for a little while in NBA doing that.

And I think maybe for a guy like Randolph or some other guys who've had great college, because Jimmer for that, like another example. Yeah. You know, how come he's not an NBA? Well, he can go to China and be the same player he was at BYU in China. Whereas when you play in the NBA, and this is sometimes we, and we look, we do it in football where guys that are running backs, they don't have to do pass protection, right? They don't have to do some of those little things. Whereas when you get in the NFL, like you're going to have to play special teams.

If you're not a superstar, you're going to have to play special teams. You're going to have to be a gunner on special teams in terms of on punt team. In the NBA or, you know, all these guys, you know, they move around so that they can be the best player on their AAU. team, their best player in their high school team, their best player on their college team. Then you get to the NBA and like, hey, look, here's what we want you to do, okay? We want you to play a quarter the minutes that you've always played. So you've got to come off the bench and be ready.

Then you're going to have to play more efficiently than you've ever played in your life from further out in the court you're shooting the basketball against better competition and you're playing games every night or every other night. Can you do it? And everybody thinks they can until they don't hear their name called and they're going to, you know, you played 10, 15 minutes night, and you get four shots and you've got to make two of them. That's really hard. Right.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my last year I played, I played in the most of the year in the D league for Asheville altitude. We won the whole league with Joey Meyer, former DePaul coach, is our coach. I shot over 50% from three from the NBA line. The same NBA line was usually because I was playing every night. I was getting plenty of shot. You know, my career NBA 3 point percentage is under 40% because it's totally different. You know, when you play 15 or 5 or 10 minutes, it's a little different when you're trying to fill a role and make the same number of shots that you get when you're playing all the time.

Rush and Leroux joining me here in the All-Ball podcast. All right. So you go to the NBA. Excuse me. You go undrafted. You're in that summer. And didn't you, before you went to Paris, you played for, would you play for USBL team? Who was the Carolina Cardinals to play for?

Yeah, it was just a little USB. team. They started. It was a summer thing in Winston-Salem. You know, I didn't know if I was going to have any kind of career at that point. I was like, you know what? I make a little money. I get to keep playing. For me, at that point, when I decided just to go basketball, I knew I needed to, you know,

play as much as I could. I got invited to Portsmouth, played pretty well there. Actually, with the camp with Bulls, my first year out of school. I got invited to camp and you remember Clarence Gaines was a big house Gaines and son. Clarence was a scout for the Bulls, and so he had seen me a lot,

being from Winston-Salem and inviting me to camp, and they pretty much told me, you're not going to make the team, but we want to just take a look at you. Well, I got a call for this month replacement job in Paris, basically the two days before camp started. So I was actually in Chicago for a day and decided to take the job. You know, the management of the Bulls are like, you know, it's great money. You're not going to make the team. You need to take it.

I was married at the time already. I had a kid at the time and took the job to go over there and play for a month. So, you know, I did play in that summer. League with USBL for about, I guess it was about a three-month thing leading up to camp. Okay, so you come back and the next year you're what, then you're in the CBA in Idaho? Yeah, so actually, I went over and played a year, a month in Paris, and then, you know, it was just a, Saddle III was injured, I was filling in for him, and then when that contract did.

Seidel Therreed, if he went left, he was in. If he went right, he was not making it. Yeah, I played with J.R. Reed, former Carolina player with all my team over there, but I had a couple offers to stay overseas. You know, I was, like I said, married, had a nine-month-old son, and I was like, man, I've been in Paris for a month. I've seen, you know, I've got two English channels seeing in the Cartoon Network. I'm ready to come home and watch some ESPN and came home.

But, you know, at that point it was, you know, November 1st. There's no job. You know, all the CBA teams are full. So I sat around November, December, and actually called Clarence Games in January and said, you know, I'm probably done. I got to go get a job. I got a family to support.

Went down to Charlotte and interviewed with Anderson consulting on a Friday, and I got to call that Friday Night from the CBA team in Connecticut, the Connecticut Pride with it was actually Pat Knight was the assistant there, Bobby Knight's son. And so I was that close to being done playing. And so I went to finish the year in the CBA and finished up the year strong and the polls invited me to Summer League that next year. year. And that's how I got back with the Bulls that next year.

Okay. So you walk into the, your first game with the Bulls. I mean, this is the Bulls, the Bulls. This is the best team on Earth with the best player ever. What was it like? I mean, you know, kind of camp was surreal. And I was, you know, obviously what was just, you know how it is. I mean, you go try out for a team. I don't know how it. I know how it is to try and try out for a team. Okay. I don't know what it's like to try out for that team. Well, for any NBA team back when I was playing, they had 12 roster spots, you know, 3 injured reserve spots, which were faux-injured reserve spots.

And there's 20 guys there, you know, competing maybe for one spot if there's even a spot open. So who are the other guy? Who are the guys that were in the pool that you're competing against? I can't remember, to be honest, where you met that rookie year. But Keith Booth was a rookie that year. He was their draft pick. He ended up making a team. but I played pretty well in camp, and actually I got cut the two hours before the flight left for the first game. So camp ends, and Steve had curraned up a little bit, and they cut me and just said, hey, if anything happens, we're going to call you up. And so at that point, I decided to stay in the States, and I went to Idaho to the Idaho Stampede. The only time I've ever been drafted was second to last in the CBA expansion draft.

So went to Idaho, you know, obviously the preseason, you're with the Bulls. I mean, it's like being with the Beatles. You know, I mean, everywhere we went, there were people there. But I go out to Idaho, have no idea from what we'll get called up. I played about, actually was there about two weeks, and then got a call from Jerry Krause, the general manager, and said that Steve Kerr had gotten hurt. It hurt his knee, and they were going to have an MRI later that day to see if he was capable of playing and if not they were going to call me up well we had a game we had the first game

of the year that night uh for idaho so that was back before cell phones so i went to the game and told my wife to stay home and wait to get the call and she she uh she walked in arena and gave me thumbs up right before the game started that i got called up and you know my first game wait so how'd you how'd you play so he walks in you so i'm great i debated about just taking my uniform off and not playing, you know, because I'm thinking, don't get hurt. You know, I mean, you just got, you're getting caught up by Chicago Bulls. Don't be hurt, but that's just not my personality. So I played.

Now, I didn't, I can't say that I ventured inside the three point line a whole lot and wasn't diving on the force for any loose balls. But I actually, great trivia question. I scored the first basket in Idaho stampede history. I hit three. But I had like 12 points. And, you know, after the game, packed up the crew, headed Chicago and joined the team. and we were actually just getting ready to head off for a West Coast road trip.

And, you know, my first game I played in was at Phoenix against Jason Kidd and the Phoenix sons. Man. All right. So, what was Mike like? First, what did you call him? Like, when he walks up, like, do you call Mike? Mike, you call him, MJ? Okay, call Mike.

Okay, Mike. Yeah, Mike. And, I mean, in my opinion, the greatest basketball player of all time, you know, I may be a little biased. being from North Carolina and watching him play. But super competitive. I think everybody's heard that. Super competitive, unbelievable, unbelievable athletes, 6-6, you know, long arms, big hands,

relatively small feet for his size. You know, I think he wears like a 12 or 12-and-a-half. Dang, I could borrow his shoes. Wait, I could borrow Jordan's shoes? I wear a 12. Don't quote me on that, but I think he's, you know, he's not like a 16 shoe, you know. And I saw it, obviously, I'm on the tail end of it in 98

toward the end, but just ultra-competitive. You know, you've heard a lot of stories, but, you know, interesting stories. So, you know, we go that whole year, and that's the year we beat Utah in the finals. And so leading up to that, we're up three games to one in Chicago. And I'm pretty sure it was on a Friday night. We're playing to close out the finals. And, you know, we're playing in the parade, you know what I mean, because we think we're going to win. Well, Mlock Stockham alone, they come out and play well.

Jordan has like 35, but we lose at home. And so we have to go to Utah. saw and play in game six. And the next day, we're having practice, obviously, before we get on the plane. And, you know, we get out there and Jordan comes in and his long, long pants and low-cut shoes. And we go about 30 minutes, just kind of going over some stuff for the game. And then all the starters go sit down because they have to wait on the media to come in.

And the rest of us who need to get some work in and start playing round robin one-on-one. It's me, Keith Booth, Randy Brown, Scott Burrell. And Scott Burrell and Jay used to, you know, play card. a lot together and talk a lot of smacks. So Scott, he started, you know, telling, saying, yeah, Mike, old man, stay over there. You don't want any of this, you know, it kind of run in his mouth. Well, the media comes in, and Scott kept talking, you know, and so Mike is too competitive to let it pass. And so we're going to like 25 or something, and we probably are. He were up to like 10 or 12. So he comes out and gets in line to play one-on-one with us. And this is the day in

between game five and game six at NBA final and starts going out of hard and I'm sitting and thinking, you know, he's going to roll his ankle on my foot and then, you know, it's going to be my fault. We lose, you know, we don't win in their work championship because he's too competitive to sit and watch us, but how to get out there and play. Of course, he comes back and beats us and then mercifully talk smack to Scott with all the media watching for the rest of the day. But that's just a, that's just who he is.

Okay. So what people forget about game six, okay, they all remember the following. follow-through. And to those of us who are paying attention, he had a bunch of shots that he was short that night. And he said one of the reason he held the follow-through was to kind of to finish that shot. But what they forget was, I believe he had bucket, then free throws, then he got the steel, right?

He stole the ball from Carmelone. And then he went one-on-one. So he had like the last, I'm going to say, six or eight points in a back-and-forth game and then had the big steal to get you the chance to have the game-winning bucket. What was your memory? of that kind of final bunch of possessions in Utah, really the last couple possessions of his career? Yeah. To me, I mean, I was sitting on the end zone right there.

I was literally right there where Carl Malone was when he stole it. And I think, you know, the game's going, and it's one of those where it's a tight game, and you kind of see Jordan start to, you can tell when he sort of starts to take over. and I just remember when he seeing him steal it and then not for a second did anyone on our sideline think time out you know what I mean like he's got the ball and it's just like okay here we go and sure enough you know he he makes the play which don't know that anyone was surprised but um I just remember he actually hit on the far end just um not really having a doubt that he was going to make it I mean, just knowing that he rises to that moment when it comes.

What is that moment like? Okay, so for people who don't remember, like, okay, this is the second time that the Bulls and the Jazz meet up in the NBA finals, right? Because the year before was the flu game. The second time, it's in Utah, places nuts. I mean, absolutely nuts. This essentially is the last shot of his career. Last shot of his career. I know he came back with the Wizards, but if anybody remembers, that was he went into management, he tried to fix it himself from whatever.

whatever. The last shot of his career, he's got Brian Russell on him, who my dad actually coached a couple of times, Cleveland High School in Southern California before he went to Long Beach State and played for Seth Greenberg. Yeah. What's that like to watch it? Like, to me, I still feel like I see it in slow motion. It was on TV. You were there. You're wearing a Bulls uniform. When you close your eyes or when you tell your kids about it, what do you recall?

I think just the, it's almost like said, it's. trying to remember it. It almost feels like did it a dream. You know what I mean? Because it's, it's one of those storybook kind of things. I mean, he knew it was the last shot, too. I mean, we had shirts made that said last dance on them. I mean, everybody knew this is going to be the last year that run. And so just being a part of it and, you know, albeit a fly on the wall, I mean, I was, you know, practicing every day and didn't get a chance that. I actually was in a suit because I didn't get the dress. Back then, you didn't get the dress. If you were on the injured list.

You didn't get the dress for the for the for the for the playoffs. But just, you know, seeing it happen and just all the wives had flown out there on private plane and just, you know, kind of watching the arena falls silent and just the jubilation and feeling it is it's hard to describe. I mean, anybody who's won a championship kind of knows how you feel and when something like that happens. But on that stage, on that scale, it's kind of kind of otherworldly, you know, I mean, You watch those guys from Clemson last night, guys that have put four years in,

that some of those linemen in tears, right, just because of how much work and effort and time and sweat and blood has gone into achieving that. What was Phil Jackson like to play for? Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo.

Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them.

Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so rapidly.

up in the chase, that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid?

Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about. How healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now.

Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen kingdom on earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back. Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets. meeting the president of Turkey. I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies

I've ever come across. When Jacob met Levin this went to a billion dollar fraud. But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my.

life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WNBA standout, Kate Martin, and rising hockey star Lela Edwards. If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain.

It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't belong. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ladeki. The ability to show a gold medal to someone and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals.

At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. Anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports.

You know, Phil's laid back. I think the one thing that Phil does that is probably his better than any coach I've ever played for is he instills confidence in guys. I remember when and he lets guys be themselves but also tries to help them learn how changing themselves can benefit the team but I remember when I was when I got called up and that first time I got called up

and we were on that West Coast road trip we had a lot of injuries so I started playing quite a bit and we were playing I think it was the Clippers and I ended up playing like 30 minutes that game and we were in overtime and you know ball got past to me when I was open, and I probably should have shot it, and I didn't shoot it because I'm thinking it's

overtime. I'm a rookie. I'm not going to shoot it. And timeout gets called, you know, probably 30, 45 seconds later. And he goes through the whole spill and the timeout as we're walking out. He got out by the Army. Because if you're open again like that, I don't ever want to see you pass up that shot. And so can you imagine me? I'm a, you know, 19-year-old kid, rookie with Chicago Bulls, and the head coach kind of gives you that confidence. I think that was what he was so good at. Wait, you're 19 as a rookie? I'm sorry, 19, 23. Yes.

I was going to say, I was like, damn, you were like 15. You're like 15. You're like 15. You're freshman year at Wake? I wish I was 19 when I was a rookie. I liked LeBron and getting paid. But, you know, when you're a young guy, you know, coaches have that ability to either tell you down or build you up.

You know what I mean? Yes. I think I know that Phil his ability to relate to pro guys or any players and challenge them to be better, but also, you know, give them that confidence to be their best, you know. And then that was something different for me. I mean, he made me feel confident that I was there for a reason that I deserved to be there. And it gives you the freedom to make plays and play your best. Was Pippin that good?

Pippin was – I mean, Pippin, again, I think, was just kind of one of those guys. He would have been – he's one of guys that have been successful in any era he played in. And people forget he's what, 6-9? I mean, people forget Tony Kukovych was 6-10. I mean, we had 6-10, 6-9 guys that play like guards. And Pippin was one of those guys that, obviously, I think having Michael helped him grow as a player, especially as a young player, probably, and be able to develop without a lot of stress. But just, you know, another guy that I saw not just score,

but just do so many things, guard every position, just about. super, you know, intelligent player, hard worker, you know, unbelievable player. How did you, you and Dennis Rodman are about as polar opposite in terms of, of maybe faith and how you live your life. Like what was your Dennis Rodman experience like? Dennis was a quiet guy, a hard worker. I think the great things about sports is people have different, like you said, whose lives can be totally different.

When you come together for that kind of common goal and the kind of common sweat goes into winning games, you sort of have that automatic sort of connector. But, you know, he came and did his work. I mean, he was always in the wait room when he wasn't at practice. You know, he was occasionally a little tardy at times to come into practice. And the great – so my best Dennis-Robbins story is, you know, the Bulls do Secret Santa every year. So, you know, you draw a name and you go.

got somebody's name. And I think back then the amount was like $500 was your Christmas gift. So I pulled Dennis Robman's name for Secret Santa for Christmas. So, you know, what do you get Dennis Robben for Secret Santa for Christmas? You know, I mean, that's the question for the ages. I got him a solid silver money clip with his daughter's name engraved on it. There you go. Because he had a daughter that he was very fond of. So, but again, another guy that you talk about a little bit of a specialist, obviously, but super intelligent player. I mean, I mean, understands the game, and that's why he fit into the triangle so well. Really, really, really bright player, quiet guy, never said a whole lot.

But just awesome player. You know, it's funny. The Secret Santa thing reminds me of a story. I think Brent Price told me this story. I think it was Brent Price. He was with the jazz. and the jazz had, what was the dude today in the big dog that they had, his nickname

was Big. Oster tag? No, no, no, big dog. Shoot, he wore the goggles. He played on that Utah team. Antoine Carr. Yes, yeah. And Antoine Carr. So they were going on a road trip. This is like late 90s, right? They're going on a road trip. And they get all their per diem.

They get a couple hundred bucks in per diem. Because they're going to be gone for like 10, 11 days, right? So they get like 600 bucks in per die. and whatever was, $700 and per diem. Yeah. And their first stop on the road, they're like in Minnesota. And they both decided they want to go to Best Buy. And so he,

Brent, I remember told me, like, yeah, I walked up to the counter because I wanted to buy like old disc man and some headphones. And it was like, you know, everything. All in, I needed some cash from big dogs. We both break out envelopes of cash, right? Here's a six-foot-nine black dude with, with Oakley's on. And we're both exchanging like hundreds of hundreds of dollars. But again, it's more the, it's more the, like, what appears in stereotypes in the outside and the inside is completely different or in the reality of it.

And Dennis Robbins is a perfect example of that. A lot of that's media driven and he was kind of ahead of the curve. And some of it's real, right? Like how he lived his personal life, he was kind of a wild guy. But in terms of doing his job and doing his work, like that dude was a freak athlete, could switch and guard any position. People forget when he was the worm. He was the best defense player in the league. And then he made himself into the best rebounder in the league and didn't take shots that he couldn't make.

That's why he was a great teammate. Right. Yeah, for sure. And that's what you talk about, like we said earlier, you know, guys knowing they're finding a role in a niche, the Ben Wallace is a world who, you know, find a way to make a career. Okay, so you get done playing and you played. Remind me the story in Russia, because we played against each other in Russia. We hung out a couple times.

I remember you telling me that you kept getting pulled over on the way to practice because you had a baseball hat on. Is that right? Well, so, you know, you played in Russia. So, you know, it's a different culture altogether. And, you know, in Moscow, where we were, I was playing with CSK, Central Sports Club of the Army, with, you know, the main club. And in Moscow, they have a lot of policemen standing on corners, you know,

and they just kind of have a billy stick, and they just wave you over it for why I don't. I don't know. But I had gotten pulled over a couple of times where they just waved me over. I speak no Russian whatsoever. And they would start, you know, talking in Russian and telling me something. and I would, I'd have to call the guy on the team who speaks a little bit of English and be like, hey, can you talk to this police officer? We had an assistant general manager who spoke English.

And he would talk to him and he'd get back on the phone and be like, look, pay him 300 rubles and they'll let you go, which is what, like two, two bucks maybe, I don't know. And so after that it happened a few times. Finally one day I got stopped. I didn't have my passport. And, you know, the guy's threatened and they're like, take me to jail and all this kind of stuff. So the team actually ended up giving me a card. They had my picture on it.

They had the Central Sports Club the Army logo that I called my Get Out of Jail Free Card. So if I got pulled over somebody, I just show it to the police and they would let me go. But it's a different world over there. You know, you've been there. It's crazy over there. I thought they told you to stop wearing a baseball hat because that's how they knew you were an American. No, well, I probably, I mean, I may have. But one of the things, the guy who was our GM had said, I think it was like the second,

time I got pulled over. I was like, why do I keep getting stopped? He said, you might be driving too slow. Yeah, because those dudes would have like a blue light on the top of their car and just weaving around people and there are no, there are no rules there, right? It's just survival, survival of the fittest. Yeah, yeah. And three Mercedes pull up, one Galada wagon, two sedans, one one one of them's got a light on the car and, you know, 15 guys get out of the cars and three of them going the restaurant and the other 12 stand by the cars. Yeah, yeah. That's actually what our owner was like.

He would come in with a handcuffs, a handcuff on his wrist and a handcuff on his. When we beat you guys, it was a glorious victory for our team. Oh, yeah. And we got under the table, under the table cash bonuses. Oh, yeah, yeah. When we got off the plane, we went to the final four. We won to make it to the European Final Four. We were handed envelopes as we stepped off the plane.

Yes, it's a wild, wild world. You get done playing. And then you went and coached at Greensboro College for a year, didn't you? I did. I did. I was 30. I had spent the last year we won the D-League championship, and I'd actually played with Golden State with Eric Musselman for a 10-day.

I had some offers overseas, but my daughter, my fourth child was going to be born in August. And Greensboro called me looking for a coach. It was a chance to try coaching without having to move my family. And so I jumped in and did that for a year. What did you learn from that experience? You know, coaching's hard. I think a lot of people, you know, coaching's hard. And I think that any time you get in charge of young men

and trying to get egos and people to mold together, but I also learned that I love it. I did enjoy it. But it was also, I kind of knew pretty quickly, that wasn't the level I wanted to stay at. And so I actually took a move that went to a private school to be an athletic director and run a basketball academy there from there. Okay. So then in 09, you went to work for, didn't you go work for Dino at Wackadke?

I did. I did. I went back there. I went to, Forsycich Country Day with a private school locally for about four years. And then when Pat Kelsey left and a staff position on this staff opened up, I interviewed and came on board with him there at 2009. And then you work for Buzz as well. Why didn't work with Buzz? Because Buzz is a super bright guy who was successful at Air Force, and he's a very well-regarded NBA assistant. I have my own kind of beliefs as to why it didn't work, but you were there. You were boots on the ground. Why didn't it work for both? Well, I think first of all, the year he came, I mean, I was on the staff before and not lucky enough to stay around. You know, we had a supposed top 20 recruiting class that really was

not as good as projected. And some guys that character-wise maybe weren't the best fit and work ethic-wise for the best fit, especially for Coach Busdelic style. And so, you know, here's year one. You know, we went two weeks into practice. I came on to my wife and said, we'll be lucky to win 10 games and we won nine, you know, because I just knew we weren't talented enough. We didn't have the right fit. And so I think the first year hurt really, really bad because that class had so much hype

and then we struggled so much. And then you kind of have to start trying to recover from that with recruiting. And we got better in year two. but by then there was so much negativity. I'm sure you remember a lot of the stuff that was going on. It made it really, really hard for us to do our jobs because of all the negativity. What's interesting about that to me is, and, you know, look, I know you, I can't tell you. I know you, like, keep in touch every day, but I also know you as an incredibly positive person.

And it's one thing to have that sort of negativity surrounding the program. Obviously, you know, you had the death of Skip. And then, you know, Dino, a lot of people around the program told me that Dino wasn't given the right opportunity, you know, that that was the best the program was doing. Then you're bringing a buzz, and buzz can be, buzz can be a little negative. What's that like for you emotionally, right? You got four kids. This is a school you love and a job that you really want and a sport that you love,

but all that negativity going to work. What's that like for you? Well, you know, it's hard. I mean, losing is hard anyway. You look at it. I mean, losing it, you know, I don't like losing the checkers, much less losing a lot of games at my home. my mother. And I think we were all really surprised that Dino got let go. I really felt like

that maybe wasn't the time to do that. But that's not, you know, I'm not the A.D. And I'm not the person in charge. But, you know, because you've been in it and you've got family who's been in it, how much, you know, effort and time and sweat and phone calls and how many hours going to college coaching. and so I did that for my alma mater because of one, because I love my alma mater, but two, because I love basketball and three because I like to win. And so when, you know, you're losing, it's bad enough to lose. It's worse to lose when you're at your alma mater, a place you really love. And it takes a toll.

It takes a toll. Okay. So it's the hardest four years of my life, for sure. So, yeah, but so then Danny comes in and he doesn't retain you. Like this is your alma mater. you're arguably the greatest all-around athlete in the history of your alma mater. You're nothing but a loyal soldier like no one has ever had anything bad to say about you. You go home, you've got four kids, your wife.

What do you remember about that experience? Well, I mean, it was crushing at the time. I mean, my wife actually is a really tough writer. She wrote a nice thing that I have online about how, you know, basketball kind of become an idol for us. And it was something that, because you have to, it has to be. You know, at that level, it has to be, like, all-encompassing. It has to be. And at first, you're hurt, and you're kind of like, man.

But to be honest with you, looking back now, the best thing that ever happened to me. Why? I mean, it's, well, because I think I got to, I think I'm able to enjoy my life a little bit better now. You know, like I said, I think I'm a pretty positive guy, and I'm a hard worker, and I put in my time and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, yeah, I mean, if you'd ask me five, six years ago, was head coaching awake, my dream job, I probably would have told you, yeah. You know, but there's a, there's a life that goes with that.

And I won't even get into the bad side of that business, which we all know was there, evidence by the trials, that I'm able to step away from now, and I can, you know, something I love so much like basketball and even wake, when you're so negative, like with losing those games and being a part of it, you don't want, that doesn't, that isn't what you want that memory to be. You know what I'm saying? I'm able to get away from that and enjoy it and just be like, okay, that's not, my life's not but defined by that, by that, you know what I mean?

I can move on and be successful in business. See my kids play. I mean, see my kids play in high school. I got to coach my two boys in high school. I mean, I wouldn't change that for the world. So you get to coach your boys in high school and you get to take over the program. what was that like considering all the experiences that you've been through now you're coaching your boys in high school what was it like yeah it was awesome but hard at the same time you know it's we're a competitive family

and i'm a competitive dude and um you know i joke with people off a lot of times i lose my religion coaching faster than anything else i do you know it's just because i'm passionate about it and i love it. You know Mark Pope, coach out of Utah Valley. Sure. One of the things, he and I are close, and I called him ask his advice before I took the job. I think it's, man, you have to do it because it's going to be really, really hard. At the same time, that's what great stuff happened.

Yeah, and then somebody else will coach your kid, and then it's even harder. Yeah, yeah. And so I kind of knew that opportunity that can come along every time I was working for a company at Dario restaurants that I was blessed enough that they said, yeah, take the time to that on the side. And, I mean, we struggled a little, we struggled my first year. We were 16-1-16 games. But then, you know, year two, we kind of had a special year.

My Cooper senior year, we went 27 and three. And then we graduated some. And my last year there, Maverick, my younger son was hurt all year with a, with a laborer. Right. Yeah, yeah, he tore a labor woman his hip. And so he was trying to play on it and then was out. So we struggled. But it's one of those things,

I can't get that time back, so I'm glad I had it with them. That's pretty awesome. I do want to ask you about the death of your son because you guys have been very open about it, and the ups and downs of your professional career as a player, the ups and downs of your coaching career, you think those are going to be, hey, look, and it's like Eddie Sutton who I played for used to tell us at a miserable practice, like, if this is the hardest thing in your life, you're going to have a hell of a life, right? Right, right.

For people who don't know about your son, he was 19 years old, right? Yep. And he's Riley, and he's... Yep. And what happened? Passed away in a car accident. On September 19th of 2015, he was actually up in Richmond. He had taken his girlfriend to the airport early in the morning, and then foggy morning and didn't

see a curve and, you know, didn't have a seatbelt on. And, you know, it's a hard thing. It's one of the things you don't wish on your worst enemy. And also, too, his whole career in high school was when I was awake. And that makes, and I missed a lot of that. So you miss that. But it's, like you said, you go through a lot as a player, and even as a coach losing games, and you think, man, this is terrible, right? And you gnash your teeth and you think it's the end of the world. and then something like this happens, you think, you know, no, I can't think of anything worse, you know, and like I said, I wouldn't wish for my worst enemy.

But it's, you know, we get up every day and move forward and with the grace of God and count our blessings that we still have three great kids with us. How do you get up and be who you are, and God-fearing man who wants a leader of your family? You know, you have your wife, and you guys have been together since high school. Like, what is the, if you were to give anybody

advice going through a similar kind of tough time and then how I just I don't even know how you get up out of bed I don't I don't I look at I I knew I was going to talk to you today and I my son's nine years old he's like hey dad will you lay lay next to me and I know I don't like laying next to him because I always fall asleep in his room and I wake up in the middle of the night and it's hard to go back to sleep but then I was thinking like you know like you said you never get those days back how how do you get up out of bed well I mean I think you do it for your you're the people you have left you know and and and with the hope that you know you're going to see him again one day. I think you live the best life you can here, hoping that, you know, knowing that one day

you're going to be reunited. And for me, too, I think for my wife, it's, it's, we owe it to our kids that we still have one. And then I think that you, I know that it's, it's for people going through it now, I mean, it's, it's indescribable. I can't, you can't, there's nothing people can say. There's nothing that you can do. You know, you got to just try to try to find, uh, it's, hope to hold on to and focus on for me with you know I'm a worker so I worked you know I mean I probably worked more than I should you know during that time but I worked and and the other thing I would say is that with your kids you know you made an interesting comment about you know the ups and downs of athletics for example like basketball I have two boys who are who were really

good high school players who had opportunities to play in college and decided not to play basketball and college. I think a lot of the reason they didn't is because because of the so much of the negatives you experience when you lose, you know, that the highs of winning after you've been through something that we've gone through, you don't want to put yourself through the negatives. You know what I mean? You kind of like, you know what? I just want to, I want to find something to hold on to do. I want to, not an easy life, but I don't need the headache and the strife that comes with, you know, beating my head against the wall and putting into time I need to put in because, you know, I've seen things that other people haven't seen to experience things.

Other people hadn't experienced. You mentioned coaching Cooper and coaching Mav. Okay, so here's another question I have for you. How do you coach your kids? How do you do it without resentment? You know, you don't want them to resent you, and yet you know them and you want to get the most out of them, and you know what they have.

No one believes in their kid like the first. father, and especially a guy like you, who's played at the highest level. So you know all the different things it's going to take. How do you do it? Like I said, it's not easy. Greg McDermott, I had asked him one day on the recruiting trail. He's like, it's easy if your kid is clearly the best or clearly the worst. Anywhere in between, it's really hard, you know.

So for me, I tried really hard to be coach at practice and to be dad at home. that's not easy because, you know, as you know, when your kids wait for somebody else, you get to coach them at home, you know, you come home, you're like, well, this is what you done. So I try to get all that out in practice and try to get all that out from the court. So that when we're home, we could just be, you know. Is that doable? Not that they talk about ball. Is that doable?

No, it's not doable. No, absolutely not. If anybody's competitive, it's not. Because, you mean, just like you would if you're his normal dad and he's coached by somebody else, you still want to have dad feedback into the conversation versus coach feedback because they're two different things. You know, there are two different things. And for us, it was it the right thing?

I don't know because someone else has done a better job for them than I did in high school. I know we had some great positive experiences. But it's hard. I mean, there were times where I wanted to quit. They wanted to quit just because, you know, we're both. We're all competitive, and my wife didn't want to come to the games, you know, because she couldn't watch me yell at them anymore. Correct. I had that last year, and I've been much better this year.

She's like, I can't go. Yeah. I can't go. Yeah, well, it's, as you know, I mean, it's hard as a parent. So this one is hard as a parent to watch your kids fail. Yep. And then when you have to coach them and you're the one teaching them, it makes it even harder. but I think I did a pretty good job of treating them.

I really tried hard to treat them just like I would anybody else, you know, really think about everything I said. If anything, I made them work harder than everybody else and I'd higher expectations of them than I did anybody else. So they probably had it tougher because, you know, I probably, I chewed them with some aggressive counseling much more than I would anybody else. I put it that way. Yeah.

I've made this point to a lot of people, and there's a good amount of people who, who disagree with me. My belief is in terms of paying college athletes, like, look, the benefit you're going to receive from the promotion you get as a college athlete, you're going to see for the rest of your lifetime. I've experienced it because I'm reasonable enough to know that, though I made some money playing basketball, and I'm not sure I ever reached my potential, both in college and as a pro, I was able to create kind of a name, image, and likeness for myself on the back of Oklahoma State that I never would otherwise. Now, you,

We're a great athlete across the board and could have pursued professional avenues, potentially in football, did in basketball. But you worked for Dario, okay? You have a really good job. And like you said, you've had other opportunities outside of sports. How much has your time in sports at Wake benefited you in terms of your ability outside of the sport of basketball? Well, I mean, I think it's invaluable, and I think that's why athletes still choose to go to college. especially in the high-profile sports.

I mean, basketball is the one. Football, obviously, a lot of kids know they're not ready to do right out of high school. So they go to football, and nobody really is up in arms about, you know, that, because that's the avenue those guys have to develop and become professional players. But you mentioned it about picking back on what you had at Oklahoma State. You know, right now a high school kid can go out of high school and go play in the D-League, and get paid a pretty decent salary and play basketball professionally, right, and develop themselves and to try to become a professional.

Now, why don't they do it? Because they know they can go to Duke or Kentucky and get the best meals, the best training, the best travel, millions of people automatically in their fan base and own their team because they go to that university. Now, you could argue that that fan base is built up over time because of the athletes that have played there. But, you know, people root for Carolina every year, no matter who's putting on a Carolina uniform.

They're not going to stop rooting for Carolina because of the numbers change. You know, and those guys who go to Carolina or Duke or Wake or Oklahoma State, you know, they make a decision right out of high school that is better for their personal brand and their security as an athlete to go to college because if you go to college and you don't play well your freshman year and you were supposed to be a lottery pick, you stay in college, and they keep bringing you along until you're ready to go get paid million. You know, you go to the D-League and you don't play well.

No. And right. Plus you have a family, right? You have a basketball family to fall back on. And look, it's obviously been hard for you because the guy that you played for is no longer there. Right. And so it's different. But you still, those guys that you played with played for, those are your family in addition to the university,

which however much it helps you, it's going to help you a whole hell of a lot more. it's going to help some regular, regular student. And if you don't have, if you went to the G League or you went straight to pros, like, I don't even know what you do. You got to ask the people who you played for professionally for a job or for advice. And their advice is going to be, dude, you got to go back to college and get a degree because very few people get hired without a degree. Yeah, absolutely.

I think you look at the, you know, obviously the amount of athletes that are, yeah, there are some guys who are making her multimillion-dollar stars, and they're going to go and be NBA players or anything. NFL players or tennis stars or whether the case may be. But, you know, the vast majority of them are going to hopefully get a degree and fall back on their contacts and develop and the career offices at the schools to help them get a job. I mean, think about, I know you hear stories all the time.

A lot of guys who end up going on and getting jobs who are athletes, you know, it's an alumni at the university who gave them the job, you know, or got them in the door, whatever the case may be. I don't disagree that they should get, and they already get paid. I know some people don't get paid, they already get a stipend. They're getting paid. My dad played at Old Dominion back in the day, and they used to get laundry money back then. They used to get a little bit of spending money on the side.

But it's kind of a hard door to open because I don't know where it stopped with that. And they say, well, I can, what about my likeness? Use my likeness outside. Well, okay, you know, I mean, you want to go sell your autograph. How, you know, then you can't police, you know, an alumni giving you. a million dollars for your autograph if they want to because you go to Alabama. So I'm a big believer. If you want to be a professional, then go professional.

And if you want to be an athlete in college, student athlete, go to college. Of course, I would be in favor of them putting the baseball rule in for basketball as well, just like they do for football. Last thing. Last thing. You've been through a lot, personally, professionally. I know you still love basketball. Basketball is still very much in your heart.

You mentioned Eric Musselman, who, of course, you played for for a short period of time. You mentioned, you know, Steve Kerr, of course. You have connections in this sport. Will you ever get back in? I don't know. I don't know. I might one day. You know, right now I've got a daughter who's a freshman volleyball player at West Forsyth.

So one of the reasons I got out of coaching when I got into what I'm doing now is I just didn't, I had opportunities. I just didn't want to move my family. I grew up here. My wife's family grew up here. Maybe once my daughter's out of high school, I might consider it. but I really enjoy what I'm doing. I'm working with a great company. We're growing and we're very successful in what we do here locally.

So I'm enjoying it right now. I don't miss the late night film session trying to figure out how we couldn't guard the pick and roll. But I also miss the competitiveness as well. Okay. I said that the last thing I lied. You're six-foot-two guard from Greensboro, North Carolina. You're obviously a very good athlete and very competitive.

if you are going to give advice to a kid and say, this is how do you make it? Whatever level it is, this is how do you make it? What's the two or three things that somebody should legitimately focus on in terms of how do I make it? Because how do I make it is the same in high school, is the same in college, is the same as a professional. How do I make it? There's no substitute for work.

I think, you know, I've always, there was a good, somebody put a good thing up, Bob. Huggins had the other day, but, you know, you can't cheat. the game. Putting in the work is one, but also because when you put in the work, you'll develop a belief in yourself. I'm a believe believer, and you've got to believe in yourself or anybody else will believe in you. And putting in the work, and I just think a lot of times players don't understand the amount of work it really takes to be successful and to be good at something at the level you have to be at to play in college or even be on your high school team. And the next thing I'll say is focus on where you're at.

If you're an eighth grader, be the best middle school player you can be. And then if you're a really good middle school player, then you'll go to high school. I think too many times guys look at down the road and say, okay, they're looking at what LeBron's doing or this and that. Just focus on today being the best practice, being the best player at practice today. And then be the best player at practice tomorrow. And then when the game comes, you're the best player on the court. And if you'll keep doing that day and day out,

but then work to be the best that day, then good things will happen. happen. Hey man, I wish you and your family nothing but blessings. I really appreciate you joining me. And I think your words and your life experience is going to help a lot of people. Thanks for being our guest on All Ball. All right. I appreciate it, ma'am. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the the controversies and the stories behind the headlines.

We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Sliced Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok.

Welcome to my new podcast, Learn the Hardway with me, your host, and your favorite therapist, Kear Games. And in recognition of mental health awareness month, I'm bringing over a decade of my own experience in the mental health field and conversations with so many incredible guests. I'm talking, Tripp Fontaine, Ryan Clark. Sometimes when we're in the pursuit of the thing, we get so wrapped. up in the chase, that we don't realize that we are in possession of the thing. And we're still chasing it. And we don't know when we've done enough. Because people scoreboard watch. Life becomes

about wins and losses. Steve Burns, Dustin Ross, because you find it important to be a good person while you hear on earth. Are you a good person because you're afraid? Because that's two different intentions, bro. Absolutely. And that's two different levels of trust. I want you to just really be a good person. Join me, Kear Gaines, is we have real conversations about All healing, growth, fatherhood, pressure, and purpose on my new podcast, Learn the Hard Way. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Search Learn the Hardway and listen now. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect.

We were God's chosen kingdom on earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back. Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets. meeting the president of Turkey. I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across.

When Jacob met Levin this went to a billion dollar fraud. But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. life.

Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Life throws hurdles big and small. The question is, how do you conquer them? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we sit down with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness, professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions to talk about the challenges that shaped them and the mindset that keeps them going. From the WMBA standout, Kate Martin, and rising hockey star, Lela Edwards.

If a boy can do it, I don't see why a girl can't. Like, I've never understood that. Like, it didn't make sense in my brain. It's hard to be in spaces that no one looks like you, but don't ever feel like you don't feel on. Don't let that be the reason you don't do it. An Olympic champs Gabby Thomas and Katie Ledecky. The ability to show gold medal to someone

and have their face light up and smile, that means the world to me. And that's what motivates me to win more gold medals. At our level, at this scale, like being able to fail in front of the entire world, Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Because resilience isn't just about winning. It's about showing up, even when it's hard.

Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHart Women's Sports. Let's welcome in a guy who's a really, really talented writer, analyst, report. Like, he does a little bit of everything. Like, I wouldn't, if I characterized him as a writer, that'd be kind of class. drastically unfair, right? Because you see them on TV. If you're in New York, if you know anything about basketball, you read Zag's blog, whether it's on Twitter or you just go right to the website. He's Adam Zagory, joins us. He also writes for the New York Times. You see him on SNY in New York. And, Zach, I want to start with a couple of things. Saw St. John's lose to Villanova last night at the time of this recording. And look, obviously they got screwed in that Seton Hall game, although had they made free throws, it wouldn't have mattered. But you've seen kind of the evolution of this Chris Mullen team. First, when Mully got the job, did you think it would work?

I have not been since they've redone it, obviously, this year. I like that they kept it the same size. It's not, you know, they didn't add seats, which is the mistake that so many people make. But, okay, so take me back. Like, I'm sure I could search on Twitter and try and find what you wrote when Mully got the job. Mully gets the job. What was your immediate reaction? time you bring in a new coach

because there was a lot of 1985 once a little doubtful Yep How good are they? Sorry? How good are they? Here in New York, which is obviously a pro town

But if St. John can get to the tournament I think they could win a game or two In the NCA tournament Is Pons a pro? Yeah, it's funny I was talking to some NBA guys last night At the game there were about 16 NBA guys there

NBA guys, I was talking to NBA from the NBA 15 years ago. He probably the best. Yeah, I think my question actually is can he guard or will he guard, right? Is he tough and will he guard defensively? Like, there's lots of guys that can score, but how many do you give up at the other end? Because now, even though you don't have to play post-defense like you used to on a lot of guys, if you're not tough, they just eat you alive. He's going to go when he works out for NBA teams and go through the process,

he's going to be told he has to do that. Okay, I wanted your perspective on Zion. He's better than I thought he would be at things other than dunking, right? And I think, I actually think the Duke thing's been really good for him. And my fear was, hey, last year, Shoshchewski waved the white flag and didn't make him play man-to-man defense. And I was like, man, if he doesn't have to play man-to-man, and he doesn't become a better shooter. And he doesn't get, I'm still cautious about the weight because I don't know, I just don't know how. you're going to lose weight with his body type.

And I also don't know how you can play 82 games plus playoffs with that body type. But he seems to play hard, seems to have a high basketball IQ. He seems to like to pass and be a good teammate. And his shooting, though not great, is better than, I think, maybe my perspective or how he was advertised. What's your perspective on Zion now that we've seen him 15 games or so? Played their games in Canada. And those guys were worried about his weight. I think they list them at, what, $2.80 or $2.85.

He may be closer to 270 now. But the NBA guys were saying, look, as you grow up as a man and get older, you're going to add weight, and you're going to add weight in the NBA. So it's not even so much that he weighs 270 or 280 now. But what's he going to weigh in five years down the road in the NBA or 10 years down the road? I think, you know, he's gone from being, you know, questionable. Maybe he was the first pick. maybe he's the second pick behind RJ to now, you know, everybody agrees he's the number

one pick. You know, ESPN is feasting off this kid and, you know, we're getting daily updates on him. And, you know, they did stress that he made three out of four three-pointers last night, which Mike Schmitz, who's their draft guy in ESPN, you know, he made some good points. If Zion can just prove that he can put a standstill three-pointer and force defenses to close out, you know, at least at least then he's really going to be trouble in the NBA.

And, you know, we've just never seen anybody like this kid. Our friend Mike DeCorsi wrote a great story on the sporting news, breaking down all the comparisons, you know, LeBron, Charles Barkley, Larry Johnson, and how he's really none of these guys that he's different from all these guys. He weighs more than most of them.

And he's just an athletic freak. I think it's going to be fascinating to watch him and Bull Bull, who's obviously injured. But, you know, they're such unique. body types, where are they going to be in three or five years in the NBA? Yeah, Rodney Rogers is the guy that a lot of people have pointed. He's like a more athletic Rodney Rogers.

But he's just the first NTA tournament game. I mean, the hype is just going to get bigger and bigger. There are going to be so many reporters and TV cameras. Everybody's going to want to see a tournament game, how they're doing the HCC tournament. You're in New York. You cover, you know, not just, obviously, you know, high school college sports ridiculously well, but also the NICs. Okay?

So the Knicks plan is, hey, you're not going to play Prozingis this year, going to sit him out, right? Well, we don't know that, but okay. But, okay, but what's the likelihood he, like, are you going to stick him in the last 10 games, 15 games of the season when you're trying to tank? Okay, but their plan is to go and get, try and go get one of the big fish, right? Yeah. How likely do you think that that is to happen? Yeah, but you also, you also know, you know the Knicks, right? And I do think it's changed with Fisdale.

like Fisdale kind of makes it kind of cool a cool landing spot. Like I can tell you, the Clippers think they're getting Kauai Leonard. Like they're telling people like, hey, we're getting Kauai Leonard. It doesn't mean it happens. Are the Knicks doing the same with Kevin Durant? To Phil Jackson, without a doubt, you know, the players always seem to like David Fisdale. Interesting, they do have an all-African-American fun office there, all-out president and now coach.

For so long, it takes a certain kind of player to want to come here and say, hey, I'm going to turn this around as opposed to the trend of just, you know, I'm going to go play with my buddies on a really good team. Now, obviously if a guy like Kevin Durant or LeBron ever came to the Knicks, they would be an instant contender.

You know, New York City would go nuts. But it does seem like a pretty risky, you know, that is their strategy now, but it does seem like a pretty risky strategy to gamble everything on and get KB or Kyrie or somebody and or that you're going to

Who's the best basketball Who's the best basketball player you've ever seen? Came and played in New Jersey when they used to have Governor Andrew Wiggins and Julius Randall, YBL, they were all right. You didn't tell me who the best was you saw as a high school player? It's all the braids, so I've got to say that. You don't have to, you can say however you want.

Like, I'm not going to shade your PIDA. Just because he has been the best player in the NBA, like was he far and away the best high school player that you saw? Okay, last thing, then, and then we, then we got to let you go, and I know you have to go as well. By the, how can people get your podcast? All right, fair enough. But we can still get your blog.

You're still doing your blog. You're still doing your TV stuff. And I know you're still doing your pieces. I just read the St. John's piece. So those things still occur, correct? If you were hiring at UCLA, okay? Now, granted, there's a lot of politics that you're hiring you sell. You're Dan Guerrero.

Who do you hire? No, the coach. But I got my answer. But I put you in charge. You get to make the call. Not what they're going to do. You're making the call. Who do you do?

Yeah, I think you're right because I don't think you have to pay $7,8 million. I think you could pay three or four, which is what they can afford. And I think, yeah, you may lose some fans of the press conference, but you win them all back if he gets you a national title and gets it back up and running. I think it'd be an amazing discussion. All right, dude. Go ahead. Great stuff, man. You do an awesome job.

Thank you so much for giving us your insight. And we appreciate you join us. All right. Well, I hope you enjoyed both Adam Zagoria and Russie Leroux. and this week's edition of All Ball. If you have any basketball questions, feel free to tweet me at Gottlieb show or hit me up on our Facebook page,

the Doug Gottlieb show Facebook page. In the meantime, tell a friend, send this to a friend, tell them to download, subscribe, and rate the podcast. Because, look, if you love basketball, you probably like this pod, and you probably have friends that love hoop and would love the pod as well.

My thanks to the rest of the Rue at Adams, Zagoria. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is Albaugh. Last night, a blown call changed the game. This morning, the internet lost its mind, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where SportsSlice comes in. I'm Timbo, and every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the biggest moments in sports and giving you the real story behind the headline.

And we're going straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions in the moment, and the stuff nobody gets to hear. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo's Slice Life 12. and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends.

Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app. podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Life is full of hurdles. So how do you keep going? On Hurtle with Emily Abadi, we're talking with the most inspiring women in sports and wellness from professional athletes, coaches, and Olympic champions about the challenges that shape them and the mindset that keeps them moving forward.

At our level, at this scale, being able to fail in front of the entire world. Like, I can do anything. I can do anything. Listen to Hurtle with Emily Abadi on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on. A Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman.

Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, a billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last? Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart. radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.