The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - Best Of: Luka's return to Dallas, Luka and the refs, Steph and LeBron

Episode Date: April 13, 2025

This week on the podcast Jason reacted to Luka's return to Dallas and how he reminded the Mavericks front office that they made a mistake by trading him to the Lakers, how the refs call games with Luka playing, and the different styles of play that Steph and LeBron have. All the and more! #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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So it was such a weird vibe in the arena because usually when we see these types of situations, there's been at least somewhat of a case that, you know, that is built over time where it's like, yeah, we might need to move on from this guy or maybe we should move on from this guy. And so, yeah, the player will come back and everyone will give them their moment of appreciation. But then it's like, all right, let's get down to basketball. Let's compete. Screw these guys. We're going to get a win. And could not be a vibe further from that because the most absurd trade in NBA history,

the trade that sent one of the most accomplished 25-year-olds in the history of the league away from a team that he was completely and totally committed to, as evidenced by his reaction to the tribute video, the trade has left a bad pace in a lot of these fans' mouths, right? And the way they reacted was to effectively cheer on Luca all night long to the point where you could literally see it have an effect on several Mavericks players. I thought Anthony Davis and Clay Thompson in particular for being the competitors that they've been for the majority of their career, there wasn't a ton of fight there. You can tell I thought they were affected by it.

The game just had this super weird vibe. It never kind of took on the energy level in terms of Dallas and the energy they play with that I think they could have won this game. Dallas has some advantages. Their guards are really athletic. They have the ability to get to the rim on this team. and the Lakers are worn down.

Fourth game and, or excuse me, third game in four nights, just had to play a couple of really emotional games in Oklahoma City. This could have been a game that could have gone a different direction, but it just felt like there was never enough, like, energy and life for Dallas to feed off of.

It was just a really strange night. The tribute, you know, it was funny when I was watching the tribute video, it's just a casual reminder of how much Luca Donchich has accomplished in his brief time in a Dallas Mavericks jersey from the series against the Clippers where he's just scoring on dudes

and talking shit every time down the floor, the myriad of crazy shots that he hit over the years to win games, to extend games, at the end of quarters, end of shot clocks, the Western Conference finals run with what he did to Phoenix, what he did last year, the insane regular season high scoring games.

There's just so many things that Luca got done in such a short period of time that even though he's only 25 years, years old. It just took on this feel like this great bit of history was wasted and you could just see it really affect Luca. And I was just so impressed because I can't imagine going from a situation where you're as emotional as he was to going into a game where the entire success of the Lakers depends on Luca Donchich's ability to break down the defensive coverage that Dallas was using, which we're going to get into in a minute. It's a lot of pressure.

You factor in not just the responsibility that he had in that game, but the emotions at play in the situation and the fact that they're on their third game in four nights and the fact that they really needed that game. They lose that game. They suddenly absolutely must beat Houston on Friday and absolutely must beat Portland on Sunday, which again, Portland, you know, do you feel like they can take care of business there, but that's not an easy game against Houston. Houston's beating everybody as of late.

This was a very, very important game. 45 points, 8 rebounds, 6 assists, carried the offense in the first half when the Laker defense was a complete no-show. And then finally, the Laker defense was able to take control of the game in the second half, a scoring burst from LeBron James in the fourth quarter, some cherry on top scoring from Luka

and the Lakers ended up getting the win that they so badly needed. Now, I was really curious to see what kind of game plan that we would see from Jason Kidd in this game. he's got a bunch of drop coverage bigs on his roster, right? And as we know, the Lakers have struggled over the majority of this stretch of the season against switching. And one of the big reasons why has been Luca has struggled to beat bigs on an island compared to what it, you know, looked like in years past, right? What's super encouraging is this is the third game in a row. There wasn't as much against OKC.

We saw a couple of possessions in the second half on Tuesday, famously the one right before. before he got ejected, where he faced Hartenstein on a switch. There were like three or four other switches in that game. But OKC did run a good amount of drop in that game. However, between tonight's game, the few reps against Hartinstein, and then the game on Sunday, Luca had those big dudes dancing. They had no idea what they were doing out there on the perimeter and he was cooking him. Cooked Hartnstein over and over and over again on Sunday a few more times on Tuesday.

Tonight, Derek lively, right out the gate. interestingly enough, Jason Kidd will run a lot of drop with those guys, and he's a guy who famously has liked to blitz over the years, particularly liked to blitz Laker ball handlers in ball screens. And so I was expecting them to come out and maybe consider blitzing, but went with switching with those fives and Luca was just no problem at all, getting lively on his backside and jumping straight up and down as lively is pursuing from behind and committing foul,

getting easy dribble penetration. I've always been amazed by Lucas' ability to use just little change of pace moves and using a size and leverage physically to get drill penetration on basically everyone. But he just demolished the Mavs in switches over and over and over again. And then one of the other things, too, like the short range shot making isn't there yet. I felt like he got a little closer today. Today was, I feel like his short range shot making has been off off a lot over the course of this phase in the season. but I thought tonight he was just getting a little closer.

The misses were just a little closer to going in, a little bit more confidence, a little bit more crispness in the release. I feel like he's getting closer, but the step back three, he's got it going over these like six four to six five dudes. He just doesn't see him when he takes that pullback dribble and he's getting it off whenever he wants.

Just an unbelievable sequence from Luka Nach's. It was so important because early in the game, the Lakers were not very good defensively. It kind of reminded me a lot of the Oklahoma City game on Tuesday. LeBron James has an enormous amount of defensive responsibility on this team. Since Anthony Davis went out, the entire identity of the defense has shifted. Now, when Anthony Davis was on the team, they didn't have much of a defensive identity. They started to play a little better towards the end, but they had a rough defensive season.

But in years past, the identity with AD has been Anthony Davis at the rim. That's been the identity of the defense and his ability to at the end of games, switch on to perimeter players, just Anthony Davis being the wrecking ball that he is on the defensive end of the floor. Since AD left, it's completely shifted to much more of like a connective defense. We are all in this together. We all have to fly around and rotate. And LeBron is the captain of that ship. He's the guy that is, you know, sussing out actions as they're taking place and calling out coverages, anticipating things before they happen.

And so when LeBron kind of lets his foot off the gas in that department, the defense has tended to fall apart, even going back to when LeBron was out of the lineup entirely how poor the defense looked at stretches. And in both games, in the second half of the Oklahoma City game, and in the second half tonight, LeBron came out of that halftime locker room, it was like, it's time to go. And in both games, he completely took over defensively and was able to reestablish the team there.

I thought the Lakers had a very, very smart defensive game plan for Anthony Davis overall. Big shock, JJ Reddick coached the guy, so he's familiar with his strengths and weaknesses. and Anthony Davis over the years has made moderate improvements handling double teams, but historically it has not been a strength of his. And JJ had a very simple game plan, same game plan that he used against Nicola Yokic earlier this year, the same game plan he used against Carl Anthony Towns earlier this year. They used a similar game plan against Janus earlier this year.

They will front the post to try to deny the catch and try to get you to just bail on it by fronting the post and situating a defender right behind him so that it looks like you can throw that over the top pass. But if you do, you're running the risk of that defender from behind coming over and blocking that pass away. And so what ends up happening is you're preying on the indecision of the guys who make the entry passes. And they were just in many cases looking to go another direction. And then when they did get Anthony Davis the ball, he would get immediately doubled from the baseline side. Same exact concept they used against. Yok Hitchin against Carl Towns.

Soon as they managed to successfully get the post entry, the guy that's fronting quickly disengages, overplays the middle shoulder towards the middle of the floor to try to force Anthony Davis to spin to the baseline or face up. And as he does, then the double comes from that baseline side and they're preying on that indecision from Anthony Davis and rotating out of it. There was a couple of adjustments around the way. Like they tried having Anthony Davis just bring the ball up the floor himself and dribble into a post up still ran into the baseline double team and turned it over. They did actually get an

easy bucket for Anthony Davis on a flash cut from Daniel Gafford. And this, by the way, is just a counter that Dallas should have used more frequently, whether they just didn't go to. But fronting the post, Gafford's on the backline, Gafford's man is bracketing on AD. Gafford flashes up to the semi-circle. As he does, the backside helper has to follow him. He probably shouldn't, but he goes with him as he does when Gafford catches, suddenly there's no one behind AD. He can just float it over the top. He gets an easy layup.

But they just never were able to repeatedly make the reads or the adjustments necessary to handle that action. And then AD just kind of disappeared from the game. And I was talking with our guys before we went live. Like, you know, as someone who's rooted for Anthony Davis a lot over the years, and this is just something for you Mavs fans to just kind of keep in mind as you're embarking on this journey.

rooting for Anthony Davis. He is always going to struggle with double teams. It's been a pretty consistent thing that he'll struggle with. But he'll also have games when he's healthy. When he's like really healthy and in shape and has something to play for, where even when he's struggling to get the ball in a situation like that, he'll just be a wrecking ball in every other facet of the game. He'll get like six offensive rebounds and fly around on defense

and it'll end up with like 19 and 17 and like three blocks and four steals and he'll find a way to impact the game even when he's not playing well. Now, he will also have games where that fight and competitiveness is just not there. And that can happen from time to time even when he is healthy. I think it happens a lot more, as I've noticed over the years, when he's banged up, when he doesn't really feel like there's as much to play for. And so honestly, like AD got game planned out of this one. And when he got game planned out, he didn't have any sort of second punch.

to go with and, you know, like as LeBron engaged things for the defense, because that's the thing. They did a good job with their defensive game playing with Anthony Davis in the first half, or they did a poor job who was containing the ball and their backside rotations on dribble drives. And so they just got diced up in the pain. I think they gave up like something like 28, 30 something points in the, uh, in the first half just in the paint, right? But in that second half, LeBron gets engaged, he gets going, really helps them regain control of things defensively. And then in that fourth quarter, it was kind of a perfect example from LeBron of what I was just talking about with Anthony Davis. LeBron's been struggling with his rhythm since he came back from his injury.

LeBron has been a guy that's been inconsistent offensively in this last couple of weeks. But he was just like, I'm 6-9-260 with still great athleticism at my age. And I can just play really hard and cut and crash and post-Seal. and drive and just do everything I can just through sheer force of will to impact the game. And he ends up lighten the scoreboard on fire in that fourth quarter, everything just right at the rim. And again, like, LeBron has something to play for right now. That's the big difference. But like, I thought LeBron demonstrated an example of how like in defensive rhythm or when a defense gets you out of rhythm, how you can kind of play yourself into rhythm as an athlete just by playing super hard.

That's the advantage of being one of the supreme athletes in the game. It's like you can make up a lot of lost ground just by getting your body moving around and doing as much as you can with it outside of what has variance. There's variance in running action against a loaded up defense. There's variance in jump shooting. There's not variance in how big and strong LeBron James is. That's going to be there every single possession. and I thought that fourth quarter stretch from him was a classic case of like he was obviously

tired. He was budgeting in his energy all game. He stepped it up defense like it almost made sense. Luca carried things offensively earlier. LeBron carried things defensively late in the game. And then he just was like, I've noticed this a bunch since Luca came to the team. But, you know, it used to be that LeBron led the early fourth quarter unit even when Anthony Davis was there. It was a very similar type of rotation. would lead the early fourth quarter unit, and he would come out of the game with like, you know, seven or eight minutes left in the fourth quarter.

Anthony Davis would come back in, and then LeBron would come back in for the last four to five minutes to close. And in times past, LeBron James would manage that early fourth quarter shift with more of an emphasis toward conserving energy. And he would do his thing, and he would try to help the team as best as he can, but he knew, like, when I come back in with five minutes left,

I'm the guy that has to try to make all of this stuff happen. And Luca Donchich has just alleviated that. and I've just seen so many examples now where it looks like LeBron starting that early fourth quarter shift with a completely different mentality that's like, I'm going to let everything I have in the gas tank go right here, right now, because Luca's coming in with seven minutes left, and I'll be playing with an advantage the rest of the game or just a handful of touches here or there when Luca needs a rest or when Luca gets his first action shut down or something along those lines. And so I like that kind of, you know, pattern that we're seeing from LeBron in terms of that early fourth quarter regression. And I do think when we get to the postseason, we'll see more consistent defensive engagement from him when he doesn't have to do something absurd like play three games and four nights and deal with some of the scheduling quirks. Like, you know, we got to cut the Lakers a little bit of slack in terms of just how many games they've played between March 1st and now. it's kind of crazy. They've played like 20-something games, literally in the last, you know, five, six weeks. And you can tell it's wearing on them a little bit, but they're just finding ways to get as much done as they need to get done.

You go into that road trip with two games in OKC and a game in Dallas that's got all the weirdness surrounding the situation with Luca and for you to go two in one. And to have a one-point lead when Luca gets ejected in the OKC game, I thought they played some really, really impressive basketball. I thought the defense in general was super encouraging over the course of this three-game stretch. I thought they looked awesome start to finish in the Sunday game. I thought they looked awesome in the second half against O KC on Tuesday. And I thought they looked awesome in the second half tonight against Dallas. So call that what? That's four good halves out of six on the defensive end of the floor.

I don't think they played four good halves of defense in the previous 10 games. So like it's a really good sign that they're starting to regain some of that defensive identity that they had earlier on before LeBron James hurt his groin. I thought it was really nice to have Rui Hachamurback. He was a little bit out of whack early in the game as the game was a little bit faster. But they're in that second half. He just kept getting these wide open looks. And to his credit, he just kept trust in his work, trust in his release and hit several big ones there. He's just so important for the physical profile of the team too. I didn't even think he was particularly great tonight as a defensive player and in some of his read and react situations.

But just having another guy who's, you know, six, nine and big and strong and can move a little bit just changes that physical profile of the team. A couple of big picture things with the Mavs. As I mentioned, the Anthony Davis process will look different from matchup to matchup. Teams that switch, there is a tendency with Anthony Davis to either post up and struggle with double. teams or to settle for a lot of contested mid-range jump shots. And then the, when he doesn't have it going offensively, it's kind of like a 50-50 shot whether or not you're going to get, I'll still be an athletic wrecking ball or I won't. And I think that's going to be just kind of part of the process of of learning how to build around Anthony Davis and finding ways to cover for him on that front. That's one of

the things that I like about having him in some of those two big looks is that it allows him to kind of change the way he wants to play defensively, depending on how he's feeling on any given night. I thought Najee Marshall was great tonight. Naji's consistently been one of my favorite players in the league as a role player. I was a big fan of the signing when it happened last summer. To me, he's like one of the more versatile role player guards that you have in the league in the sense that like he can be a spot up guy, but he can also run some action for you. He can beat switches against smaller guards because he's a good athlete that has like a pretty underrated handle compared to a lot of role player guys that you have in the league.

Then he's pretty big, strong athlete for the guard position too, which gives him some defensive utility. I thought he had a really fun game tonight. And he was one of the few Dallas Mavs tonight that really brought the competitive energy in a game that so desperately needed it on the Dallas front. Big win for the Lakers, though. They got an even bigger one coming up here on Friday. The, um, that game we will have.

an instant reaction to we're working the weekend this week to make that happen. So essentially the way that the schedule will work out is we are going on Saturday morning to cover the Friday night slate. We will hit multiple games from that slate, including Lakers Rockets. The way that I would expect JJ Reddick to handle it is to go to his guys and be like, here's the deal. If you beat Houston tonight, you guys can have the weekend off. Saturday Sunday

fly out of town on Friday night go to Cabo if you want spend some time with your families get a break we'll come back this coaching staff will spend the weekend prepping you guys get ready to come back on Monday and work

if you lose to Houston SOL you got to come back and beat Portland on Sunday and we're starting our prep right away maybe you get Monday off but no one's allowed to go on vacation because they got to be in town we start practice on Tuesday

find some way to motivate those guys and create more of a must-win environment around that Houston Rockets game because then you get the three-seed no matter what, and you can allow yourself to effectively punt that Sunday game or not have to worry about it at all whatsoever, and you get seven full days off guaranteed before your first-round playoff game, potentially eight if you end up playing on Sunday. So I think that should be the plan heading into that Houston Rockets game.

I also just think it's another opportunity for Luca and LeBron, specifically to get some reps against their perimeter guys. Houston is high risk for a first round upset because they have so many, you know, issues on the offensive end of the floor. However, there is a pretty decent chance that we get Lakers Rockets in the second round, at least a chance that's worth, you know, considering, right? And so if it ends up being Rockets Lakers, that was a matchup where even though the Lakers won last time, they had some difficulty dealing with their bigger, stronger perimeter

defenders. It's not the same type of matchup as OKC. They're bigger, their perimeter guys are bigger and they have more of a size in position on the front line as well with Shangoon and Adams. So it might be another opportunity for the Lakers to get some reps against that team so they can get some more footage to improve their game planning heading into a playoff series. I think they should go for it entirely in that Houston game. The countercase, I guess, would be these guys play crazy physical. We don't want to get hurt. Let's save it for Portland. But I think you're messing. and with the basketball gods if you do that sort of thing too.

I would try to beat Houston. Now, on the refs for a minute. Let's take Luca's element to this and set it aside for a second because I think there's a conversation to be had about Luca's relationship with refs. Why do we have refs at basketball games? Like, why are they there at all?

They're there to facilitate the flow of basketball games. That's it. I heard these comments from Mark Dagesthal after the game. a rare Margusional comment that I don't necessarily agree with. And he talked about how a while back he got a tech from J.T. or the official who ejected Luca. He got a tech from J.T. or for what he said was a mild comment. Okay.

So he's, Mark's freely admitting up front that J.T. or was being ridiculous. Okay. After that, Mark said that he appreciated that J.T. held the line on the respect for the game, the integrity of the game, something about the respect for the game.

And while I agree with Mark, because he went on to say that, like, at a certain point, you got to set a line, and if someone crosses that line, you got to be consistent about it. And I agree with that. There's a certain line. Like, if Luca had gone up to JT.R. in that situation, it got in his face and started being really boisterous and demonstrative in his face, after he already had a tech earlier in the game, I would have found it to be a defensible ejection. You do have to have a line. There is a decorum element to this.

There is a respect to the game element. However, if you are going to eject Lucidoncich from a one-point game in a very important game for the Lakers on the seating front and kind of important for the thunder in terms of their mental confidence in this matchup and us potentially getting to see seven minutes of crunch time basketball between the two best teams in the Western Conference in a game that, I mean, it was a league pass game, but a lot of eyes were on it. If you're going to eject Luca there, you better be damn sure that whatever it is that

you're upset about, he did. And Luca had been talking trash to a fan, was clearly talking trash to a fan, was backpedaling away and walking up the court and just looked back and said something towards the fan. JT.O. happened to be standing there. He got sensitive. He got worked up. He kicked Luca out of the game. and that really is the thing. Like, you have to understand that if we could have it our way, you wouldn't even be there, officials. You're there because we have to have you there

to facilitate the flow of these games, but you are not the show. Go ref some YMCA games and see how many people pay to show up and watch you ref. You are not the show. The show is the players. All of us wanted to see what happened in that game. I would have preferred to get to also get some crunch time sample data from this matchup.

We didn't get that because J.T.R. got sensitive over a comment that wasn't even directed towards him. And that is an issue I've seen time and time again from NBA officials, ego, thinking it's about them, not being able to handle the emotion of the environment. basketball is an emotional sport. Trash talk is a part of the game, especially between fans and players. Yes, there are certain decorum elements you've got to watch. Like, I thought the Vando Tech was perfectly fine.

You can't let guys block each other and then run up on each other and get in each other's faces. You have to stop that because you'll end up getting guys punched in the face. Like, it will end up in physical altercations. There are certain things that you have to step up on with trash talk, but fans sit courtside. and talk shit all game long. Players talk back to them all the time.

Yes, there are times when players and refs get into it and a ref has to have a line in terms of the way that he's being spoken to. But like, you've got to have a read for the emotion of the environment. That's an intense game. The Lakers needed it. Luca was fired up. He just got another bucket torching Hartenstein on a switch.

He was talking shit. He was having his moment in the emotion of the game and JT.R got sent. and couldn't handle it. And there's just way too much of that in the NBA that needs to be resolved. Now, looking at Luca, as I said, it is a league-wide problem with refs having ego and not being able to manage their emotions in these intense competitive environments. So one of the most important things that you have to learn how to do as a basketball player

is manage your relationships with the refs. If we all agree that they can get sensitive, if we all agree that they have an ego, Then you can't sit there and berate him all game long from a distance towing that line, towing the tech line, talking shit, but keeping your distance and finding a way to not necessarily get yourself thrown out, but you're still antagonizing him. There was, I saw someone say something on Twitter that J.T. Orr during the game had said to Lakers players, anyone can talk to me but Luca. Why did he say that, Luca? He said that because you talked a bunch of shit to him throughout the

entire game. And he's sensitive about it. So like at a certain point, yeah, I believe you, Luca, that you were talking shit to the fan, but you put yourself in a position with the way you managed your relationship with J.T. Orr that he was a quick trigger to eject you. And he did not give you the benefit of the doubt. As far as I've seen, Lucas never argued his way into getting a better whistle. He gets the calls when he gets fouled. He doesn't when he doesn't. And when he bitches and moans, it actually makes the refs less willing to give him the calls that he wants. So a big part of his development in the next few years is going to be learning how to manage his relationships with refs. We could be in a big playoff series. Series tied at two, big game fourth quarter. And if

Luke is talking a bunch of shit to the refs, he could be in another situation where one is a little sensitive, on the verge of kind of losing control of his emotions, and you could cross the line and end up in a situation where you're not available to your team. That is the bottom line. The bottom line is, regardless of what the circumstances were, your team had to try to beat the Thunder last night without Luca Donchich when they were already without Rui. And because of the back-to-back, JJ wasn't about to push LeBron's minutes. You ultimately put your team in a compromising position, and it led to a loss. So control what you can control. Luca, you can't control J.T. Orr's sensitivity. You can't control the sensitivity of many of these

refs around the league. You can control the way that you manage your relationship with refs over the course of games. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, huge news? We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But, This one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember.

I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Oh, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas.

And then I wrote down on my little notepad, hey Jonas. and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite.

Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between, songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in.

I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

And for more, follow Timbo Slic Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis. And I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs. And on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay. Jen should win. I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted.

She's an outsider to win the first. French, me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lina Rabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports.

All right, before we get out of here today, I want to talk a little bit about the Steph-Lebron debate. So, Steph fans re-instigated this discussion over the weekend, basically trying to paint the picture that Steph is the defining player of this era, the greatest player of this era, and they had a better career than LeBron James. Steff fans have felt this way since 2015. This is not exactly a new idea. Many of you might remember the Steph better, the hashtag that used to go around all the time. And to be clear, I don't blame more your stuff.

fans for feeling this way. He's their hero. He brought them for titles. It'd be weird if they weren't relentlessly advocating for him in the all-time context. I also find debates along these lines to be somewhat boring because no one's change in their mind. There's no Warriors fan that is going to budge based on this take that I'm about to unleash. You guys have your way that you feel. I respect that. I have my way that I feel. I respect that. Or I would ask you. for the same in return, right? But I have literally never heard a basketball person who isn't a Warriors fan

or an outspoken anti-Lebron guy make the case that Steph was better than LeBron. Because it's absurd. Let's set aside the obvious stuff. Like that LeBron had a Hall of Fame career before Steph even entered his prime and that LeBron is still every bit as good as him. Or that LeBron has four times as many finals MVP's

or twice as many MVPs. or that LeBron is one of only two players in NBA history with four MVPs and four finals MVP's. Let's set that stuff aside. Just the narrative that Warriors fans are trying to build is absurd. Steph won his first title against LeBron in a series where both of his co-stars were injured. LeBron literally received more finals MVP consideration

than Steph after that series. I disagreed with that line of thinking because I don't believe in rewarding the loser. I think Steph should have won at finals MVP, but LeBron literally got more consideration for finals MVP than Steph that season. Then LeBron beat him in spectacular fashion in 2016, back-to-back two 40-point games in game five and game six to extend the series. In that 2016 series, LeBron badly outplayed Steph on both ends of the floor.

Then Kevin Durant joined the team, and the Warriors were so insanely talented that they had a negative, odds on sports books before the season to win the title. You had, you were going, you bet a dollar on the Warriors to win the title in October those years, 17 and 18, you would have made less than a dollar at the end of the season. Because it wasn't just KD and Steph. It wasn't just the second and third best players in the league joining forces. It was Clay Thompson, the second best shooter of all time, one of the best perimeter defenders in basketball with great size and strength at his position, an awesome role player in this league.

Dremont Green, arguably the greatest defender of this era. Andre Aguadolos, such a versatile forward that he got the finals MVP in 2015. And during that era was a do-everything player for them. I'm a big fan, Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love and J.R. Smith, but it was a different level of talent that was on those two rosters. The way that whole four-year saga is now being retroactive, rebuild as a one-on-one rivalry between LeBron and Steph is fucking outrageous.

When LeBron was at his best, he was the best parts of Steph and Dremont put together. He was one of the most prolific offensive engines in the history of the sport and one of the best defensive players to ever play the game. What happened in the 2016 finals is kind of the perfect encapsulation of the difference between the two of them. LeBron in that fourth quarter surgically took the warriors apart in a way Steph was not able to on the other end of the floor. And yet still, at the end of the game, LeBron saved it by leveraging his athleticism to make a superhuman play when Kyrie on the other end attacked Steph because he was the lesser athlete on the court

and a player he could get easy separation from. That's the difference between the two. To all-time great offensive engines, I'd even argue Steph was a little bit better, as an offensive engine than LeBron. But LeBron brought that Draymond level of playoff defensive impact while also being a five-time first-team all-em-all-defense player. LeBron was one of the great defenders to ever play this game. Think back to the Spurs series in the low-man possessions on Tim Duncan

and Tiago splitter at the rim. Think about him in 2016. On the famous brick that Steph shot over Kevin Love at the top of the key, LeBron was lurking in the paint. He blocked nine shots over game five, six, and seven of that series. Think about the level LeBron was able to get to defensively in 2020 as he helped anchor one of the great defenses in NBA history as he won his fourth championship the year after Kevin Durant left the Warriors.

There was a level LeBron could get to in terms of his athletic in position that Steph could never get to. And that to me is why they are on different tiers. I'm a huge step fan he's he's he's you got to take my word for this I get it he's legitimately my second favorite player and I actually like him more as like a dude than LeBron half the time lebron opens his mouth it drives me crazy super corny there are a lot of things I don't like about the guy to me steff is a a more steady leader and a much more likable just guy I'm a big step fan but when it comes down to basketball,

he's just not on the same tier as LeBron all time. It's LeBron and MJ at the top. Then there's a gap. And then it's Kobe, it's magic, it's Steph, and it's bird in that next tier for me. I don't think Steph is even capable of entering into the next tier. He's never even had an undisputed hold on the best player in the world title, the way that LeBron did back in 2013 or that Yokic does now. we can celebrate Steph without rewriting history and journeying to fantasy land.

Guys, like, it was an awesome rivalry between the Cavs and Warriors, and it was fun in a stretch of the NBA history where we got to see these teams face over and over again. But if you're painting that as like Steph versus LeBron playing one-on-one, that's dishonest. And it's just not reality. So like I like that athletic imposition element we're talking about, you want to know why LeBron's never had single digit points

in, you know, if God knows how many games or that LeBron hasn't had three points in a game since December of 2004. Because there's a certain floor that comes from being six, nine, 260 pounds, and big and strong and being able to leverage yourself in ways that don't strictly tie to shot making. Now, Steph has a gravity element in the Rockets game last night, for instance. He only had three points. A lot of plays on film where I'm watching Steph run off of an action, someone slip out of it and get open.

Steph has value that goes beyond it, but there's more variance in his singular output on the game because he's a jump shooter. Sometimes the shots don't go in. Sometimes he goes one for eight from three instead of, you know, 12 for 20. And that's the up and down that can come from that type of experience. Again, to me, Steph is one of the greats in NBA history. I haven't met five. I haven't met the top five player in NBA history. But I just

don't think he was on the same level as LeBron. And I thought it was just kind of hilarious the way that that was attempted to be made as a case over the course of the weekend. The volume. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know, tired and sick. Tired and sick.

Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Winning on Clay is an art. The rallies are relentless. And at the French Open, only the toughest survive. I'd know.

I competed there for decades. Join me, Renee Stubbs, on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast for no nonsense breakdowns of the biggest matches, the toughest players, and the toughest players. And the moment's set to find Roland Garris. Jen she's an outsider to win the French name. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lennar Rabakina is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface.

Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the Iheart Radio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all,

embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHart podcast. Guaranteed Human.