The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight + Chris Mannix - Nuggets' dynasty potential, Jokic's playoff run, Chris Paul's Future

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

Jason Timpf is joined by Chris Mannix to discuss if the Nuggets will beat the Miami Heat in Game 5, whether the Nuggets will win more championships in the foreseeable future, and just how historically dominant Jokic's playoff run has been. Later, they discuss where they believe Chris Paul will end up & how the Kyrie Irving saga resolves itself. #volume #herdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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AMP is the very first place that you guys can get these shows. Also, coverage of the NBA finals here at Hoops Tonight is brought to you by Chase Freedom Unlimited. How do you cash back? All right. So we have a very special guest today. Senior MBA writer at Sports Illustrated. one of my colleagues, someone that I respect a great deal. Mr. Chris Manix is going to be joining us. We're going to talk a lot about some offseason stuff having to do with Chris Paul and Kyrie Irving in particular, but the NBA finals are technically not over. But we're going to dive into the basketball a little bit. Chris, first of all, how you doing, man? Are you of the opinion that the series is over? You know, I watched all of the conference finals games,

most of them in person and I can't count Miami out of anything after what they did in the Eastern Conference playoffs. But throughout this series, you really just gotten the sense and I know Miami hates to hear stuff like this, but that there is a talent gap, you know, between these two teams.

Credit to them for getting game two, but part of them getting game two was I think Denver spent the weekend between games one and game two, kind of reading their press clippings a little bit, feeling themselves a little bit, played with a complete lack of effort in the second half of that game. And you know, you don't want to say gave it away, but certainly allowed Miami,

especially in that fourth quarter where they built a 12-point lead to climb back into it. You've seen all these last couple of games in Miami a different level of intensity. And you've seen Denver be able to win, you know, not to speaking cliche, but without clicking on all cylinders. Like you haven't had, you know, the perfect games from. Jamal Murray and Nicole Yokic. Game four, you know, Aaron Gordon in the middle part of that game just goes bonkers and makes up for, you know, foul trouble in the second half with Yokic. So it just feels like Denver's better. And it feels like if Denver, you know, comes out with the

requisite intensity in game five, this should be a series that ends on Monday night. I 100% agree. You know, it's funny. I always learn so much more on rewatches than I do on my first watch. I'm always like appalled at how much more I'll pick up when they got to really slow down and look at the game. And game two in the moment, you're like, man, Miami's making all these shots. But when I went back and watched the film, it was by far Denver's worst defensive performance of the entire postseason. And I want to cut them a little bit of slack because they were so good for weeks before that. They had won seven consecutive games. They had brought consistent defensive effort throughout that entire Western Conference final series in the end of the Phoenix Sun series. And it, you know,

It's funny because when they got to Miami and Denver brought that intensity, it kind of felt like a classic case of like every time Miami would try to plug two holes, they'd open up two more holes. And so they get absolutely shredded by the two-man game and game three. And then in game four, they kind of slow the two-man game down. And then the bigger, stronger athletes in Bruce Brown and Aaron Gordon get going and they kind of close the deal. Coming into the series, the more and more I stared at it, I struggled to find basketball reasons for why Miami could win. And, you know, that's going to be the interesting thing for Denver looking forward.

Because I always felt like the Lakers didn't quite have the amount of shooting they needed to punish the way that Denver guarded. And Miami has the shooting, but they don't have the shot creation needed to really generate the types of shots that they need. And so I do wonder if in the future Denver could be exposed defensively by a particular type of team, but I just don't think Miami's got the horses. And as far as a home court chance to win in front of your in front of your home crowd and to hoist the trophy for the first time in franchise history, it almost feels inevitable. And this is not a, this is not a situation like game seven in Boston or they can go in there with a mental advantage. It's going to be the opposite. They're, the Jimmy and Bam are, are not playing particularly well. I don't necessarily feel like they have the horses to go in there and get it done.

But on that note, let's just assume that they close out in five for the sake. of this specific topic. Everyone's under contract next year in the starting five. Bruce Brown has a player option, if I'm not mistaken, although he almost certainly will opt out of that and test the market. Do you see this as a start of a long run of contention for Denver? So it's an interesting question. It's actually one I'm writing about this week is sort of the idea that Denver is the

next in line of this group of mini dynasties. And that's what's kind of defined the NBA over the last 20, some odd years. You know, before the turn of the century, there were like actual dynasties, you know, the Celtics from the 50s. You can certainly argue in the 80s, you had two with the Celtics and Lakers kind of interchanging for most of that decade. The 90s were defined by the Bulls whenever Michael Jordan was active. And, you know, even the early 2000s, when the Lakers won three straight, they had a three or four year window where they were clearly the dominant team. But then you're talking about San Antonio four and eight. Miami.

two and four. Golden State four and counting. They'd certainly tell you in Warriors' land that they're not done with their version of it. And I think it's a reasonable question because you know, the players on that roster

they fit that kind of mold that you're looking for when trying to decide if a team is a dynasty. But Yolkidj is 28. Jamal Murray is 26. Michael Porter Jr. is 24. All these guys are under contract. You're at least 2025 and that's when Murray's going to get a new deal that's probably going to take him

through the turn of the decade. So the pieces are certainly in place for that. The question you ask is will they be able to plug those gaps with support players? Bruce Brown, I don't anticipate being back next year because I think he's going to get an offer significantly higher than one Denver can match. I think they're limited by what they can offer him in a new deal if he opts out. that's why Denver, when I talk to people out there, are pretty optimistic about Christian Braun stepping in and being that next version of Bruce Brown. Christian Brown is already a contributor to this team.

I mean, you know, what he's done in this series kind of gives you plenty of reasons to be optimistic that he can be that guy. But can they continue to do what they've done so well over the last five or six years, which is draft in the later stages of the draft really well with guys that are plug and play. And can they nibble on the margins

in the way they have the last couple of years and find guys that you can plug and play? The evidence says yes, right? You know, Calvin Booth has picked up right where Tim Conley has left off in that front office. You know, Calvin Booth was the mastermind behind shifting this team, specifically the role players,

from made more offensive-oriented to defensive-oriented. And specifically we're talking about Katavius Caldwell Pope. We're talking about Bruce Brown. I know they made a Ron and Gary Peyton the second, you know, last year they're interested in him. So, you know, they understand the value of defensive-minded guys as part of that rotation. Can they keep finding those guys? You know, can they keep finding the next version of Jeff Green that you can put into that rotation? That's probably what's going to do it. I don't think they can just hang their hat on

Yokic Murray and Porter Jr., just overwhelming everybody. But if they can find those guys when they lose players inevitably via free agency. This is a team that you would make a favorite, you know, for two, three, four, maybe five more years in the NBA because Yokic, I heard Jamal Murray speaking on Sunday talking about he thinks there's another level to Nicola Yokic, that there's still another place he can go to. Porter Jr., I think there's another place he can go to. I mean, Murray, yeah, he has never been an All-Star, so there's obviously a place he can go to.

So I think there's another level those guys can get to that will make. them a frontrunner. Their ability to win championships, though, is going to be contingent on finding those Browns, those Caldwell popes, Christian Braun and the draft, those types, and their ability to keep doing it. Yeah, when I look at their core five, they're certainly going to be in the top tier of contenders for the foreseeable future. What I don't see from this group as a juggernaut. I don't think this is a team that the other good teams in the league see as unbeatable. I think they see them as gettable. I do think that you're going to see a lot of teams, I'll be stunned to see, or I will be stunned if there isn't a couple of centers that just get obnoxious paychecks this summer from teams that are trying to move mountains to find bodies to throw it Nicola Yokic.

But in terms of that core five, I do think, especially when you look at the way that they guard, which depends so heavily on defending pick and roll three on two and helping Yokic from behind with Aaron Gordon, there is going to be a team out there that has really good shot creation and really good spot up shooting that can cause them some problems. I don't think this is going to be the type of team that rips off three, four championships in a row. I do see them very similar to like the San Antonio Spurs, a foundational star that doesn't have much of an ego that is going to throughout the entire era of his time in Denver be a consistent force in that locker room. I actually do think Jamal Murray is for real. I know the regular season numbers don't really add up, but the way I look at it, he was awesome in the bubble. when he came back in 2021, he was one of many guys that didn't quite look the same that regular season, probably because he took two months off from the game.

It didn't even touch a basketball to try to recover from a very stressful stretch in the bubble. Then he messes up his knee. And then you're out for a while. And it always takes a season or two to get your legs back underneath you. It didn't really look like himself. I think next year is going to be the textbook like first truly great regular season for Jamal Murray, where he gets an all-star selection, potentially, makes an all NBA team, like that kind of thing.

Yeah, and look, I think the other obstacle Denver will run up against is that, you know, in the new CBA, it's no secret that the NBA was gunning for the clippers. They're gunning for the Warriors, these teams that are free spenders. But, you know, Denver's got three guys on max or near max contracts. Aaron Gordon makes a boat of money. The NBA in this upcoming CBA that's going to be phased in over the next couple of years, you know, there are like levers in place. to block teams like that from just adding talent upon talent.

I mean, this was a collective bargaining agreement that was, I mean, I don't want to say written by San Presti, but it was like this is a small market written collective bargaining agreement. Like they are trying to block these teams that have all this top tier talent from just accumulating it. Now, Denver's not the example the NBA is looking for because the NBA wants to prevent, you know, teams like the clippers and going out and just buying championships. You know, not that a team like Denver has done so well

in homegrown and growing talent. But they're going to have some problems, you know, with their salaries and their payroll reaching where it is, whether it's losing certain exceptions that they can use to acquire these mid-level type of talents or, you know, just not being able to do trades over a certain level of spending. So I think, you know,

that's going to be something that Denver's front office is going to face. We've got to get creative in trying to, you know, add to this roster in the years to come. Exactly. And that's where I look at it like there's going to be a different version of that starting lineup in all likelihood three to four years from now. Somebody's going to get squeezed. Who knows who it is, but somebody's going to get squeezed. And we talked about that a little bit on my show. Like fundamentally what makes Denver on guardable is it's this two-man game that's perfectly, that works perfectly together. The games are so complimentary. Aaron Gordon is kind of the ultimate non-shooting threat because of how gifted he is at finishing behind his head around the rim and operating out of that dunker spy so

good at offensive rebounding, punishing mismatches. And then it's not just spot-up shooting. It's like deadly spot-up shooting in the form of Michael Porter Jr. and Contavius Cullo' Pope. So there will be versions of this that look more beatable. But that's why I like the Spurs as an example. To me, Denver seems like one of those teams where in the season, in the seasons where a truly great team isn't there, they're just going to float to the top. You know what I mean? But anytime they run into the combination of a truly great defense, that's also a truly great offense, which I don't think they saw in this playoff run. I think that's where they're going to potentially run into some issues. Like Phoenix, if they bolster their athleticism on the wing and in the

front court, right? You know, if Boston finally figures out some things with their shot creation, there are going to be teams. Like, for instance, Boston, I wanted them to beat Miami so bad, even though I find that particular Boston team a little unlikable. The reason why I wanted them to win was just simply because I thought them playing five out without Warford was the perfect type of team to really test Denver's ability to contain the basketball. And we just never really got to see that. But for Denver fans, I want to say this from a standpoint of optimism, like, you guys are going to be in the mix every year. I would say, like, I wouldn't be surprised if they made four consecutive Western Conference finals. You know what I mean?

but I just don't see them as like an unbeatable juggernaut the way that I saw the Kevin Durant Warriors. Angie's list is now Angie, your home for everything home. Angie doesn't just get your home projects done. Angie gets them done well. With 20 plus years of experience combined with new tools to simplify the process, Angie makes completing home projects easy. With over 220,000 pros in their network, Angie makes it easy to research, compare, and higher pros to get the job done well.

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you can have Angie tackle your home service project from start to finish. Download the free Angie mobile app today or visit Angie.com. That's A.N.GI.com. On that note, let's say that tomorrow night, Denver hoist the trophy, Nicole Yowicz gets finals MVP. I'll just let you go first because I'm curious to hear your opinion. Do you view Yokic's playoff run as all-time great? Or do you view it more as just like something more along the lines of like what Kauai Lenter did in 2019 where it's like a legit finals MVP run, but no one's looking at him as like, you know, the all-time greats, if that makes sense?

Yeah, it's a good question. I don't look at it as an all-time great playoff run because of kind of what you will alluded to. They, they didn't have a peer, really, that they went up against an equal. You know, Phoenix, as talented as they were, we all knew the flaws with that team, not the least of which was chemistry of having only played a handful of games together before the playoffs started. You know, I was as on board with the Lakers as, as anyone. I gave the Nuggets credit for rolling through them in four straight, but they were certainly a flawed team. And now it's Miami, and I'm not going to dismiss Miami as just an eight seed.

You know, Miami's better than that. But, you know, it's not the, you know, I'd probably feel differently about Yokic if he had gone through Boston or Milwaukee or in a matchup with Joel and Bede in Philadelphia. So I think it's a playoff run that elevates him. I don't know if it elevates him to that top tier stratosphere. I mean, you have to look at the numbers, the triple doubles, which could be. you know what 1112 by the time this this postseason is over an all-time record for a playoff so you know he answers every question that was ever out there about his ability to succeed

in the playoffs but to get to that next level of superstar that all-time great level of superstar i want to see him go up against a team that is just you consider they're equal or even consider they're better to beat someone that you're you're staring down and you're the underdog in that in that particular series by a sizable amount. Some of it is a critique of Yokic or the nuggets. In the NBA, you play the team that's in front of you and they have beaten every team that's been in front of them, most of them pretty badly. But if we're talking about where that this playoffs pushes Nicole Yokic, it's a level up, but it's not that all-time great level up just yet. I 100% agree. And like it's me, you know, it's ironic that the team that it reminds me

the most of is the 2020 Lakers where it's like they're a bona fide champion, great team, great playoff run from, uh, from LeBron James, but like they were just better than everybody. Like there wasn't like ever a moment where you felt like they were truly threatened. And that's the thing. Like that's, this is not a, a, a, a, uh, some sort of shot at Yokic, he's going to get his opportunities to like LeBron James, for instance, in 2020 finals MVP, no one's looking at that as his most dominant playoff run. They're going to go back to 2016 when they were down 3-1. Or they're going to go back to, like, 2012, for instance, where he's trailing 2-1 against the Pacers, trailing 3-2 against the Celtics, trailing 1-0 against the Thunder. I've always said that,

like, one of my favorite things about sports is when adversity forces an athlete to dig down to a level of greatness that even he didn't know was there. And as dominant as Yokic has been in this run, it has not been a run that's been full of adversity. So legitimate championship, probably one of the most unstoppable offensive playoff runs I've ever seen. And just in sheer like watching the TV, you're like, oh, there's literally nothing you can do with the sky, you know, like that kind of thing. It's an all-time great playoff run on the offensive end. But when you really start to look at the greatest playoff runs of all time, there's significant opposition, two-way dominance. Like usually like a handful of clutch games that they've pulled out of thin air, you know, that kind of thing.

And it just this run lacks some of that. But that's the thing is like if this Denver team, like we talked about earlier, they're going to be consistently on this stage and they're going to have plenty of opportunities to go up against better teams. And that's why you play out your whole career and you don't make up someone's entire legacy when they're 28 years old. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way,

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They said that George Bush didn't like black people. I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do a little kill? Well, you can find out on the Look Back at it podcast. I'm Sam J. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick it here, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill, waxing all about crack in the 80s.

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And it's not all bad. He was underneath a point per possession in pick and roll in this postseason, which is below average, not great. Did take a good care of the basketball. Shot 47% effective field goal percentage on pull-up jumpers, not awful. 48% on pull-up twos, not awful. I did not think he was even an average defensive player in this playoff run. I think his foot speed is really tailed off.

that said, I do think he brings some positive things to the table that NBA teams can use and certainly belongs on a roster. So what have you been hearing about Chris Paul? And if you could pick a specific basketball situation that you think makes the most sense for him, where would it be? Well, Phoenix wants to find a way to make it work. And I talked to Frank Vogel about this on my show and he went on the record about saying he's, you know, bullish on the idea of of coaching Chris Paul. He thinks this team will be a significantly worse team, you know, if he's not on the roster,

kind of paraphrasing a little bit what he was getting at there. I think Phoenix, though, is going to explore the trade market, which I don't think will be all that robust because of Chris Paul's salary. And then I think when we get to the days after the draft, they're going to have to make a decision. do they value Chris Paul on the roster because they could just cut him and then re-sign him at a smaller number? Or do they value the salary slot, which I believe is that $11, $12 million exception, which Phoenix can create if they wave and stretch Chris Paul, which would eliminate them from signing.

I think it's going to come down to that because, yeah, I think there'll be teams that talk to Phoenix about a Chris Paul deal, but the contract makes it just challenging to put something like that together. It makes sense for the Sons and brings back the kind of value they're looking for in return. The market for him is going to be robust because even though he is a diminished player, as you pointed out, with some of those numbers, he's not looking for the max contract. He's going to be looking for kind of a mid-level exception-y type of deal, maybe even less if it puts him in a situation that he wants to be in. you know, the two LA teams are the teams that come up all the time when I talk to player agents and executives about where he might land.

You know, the relationship with LeBron, obviously longstanding. I think there'd be a recruitment there from LeBron James. The Clippers, you know, they've been searching for a point guard for years now, like somebody to plug and play alongside Kauai Leonard and Paul George. And they can offer an opportunity where, you know, Chris Paul doesn't have to be Chris Paul with the Clippers. And I've asked around, too, about the, you know, the acrimonious way. that Chris Paul exited LA a few years ago. That really isn't a variable anymore. Doc Rivers is not there.

Blake Griffin is not there. Steve Ballmer doesn't care. He's just not wired that way. So I do think you'll see those two teams compete the hardest for Chris Paul's services if there's a wave and stretch situation where he can't go back to Phoenix. But everything I've been hearing from people around Chris Paul is that he wants to play there. Like he likes it there. He's happy in the city, in the market.

And he sees an opportunity. Like he wants to play with Kevin Durant. He wants to play with Devin Booker. He's helped take this team to a certain level. And if you're Chris Paul and you're looking at your best chance to win a championship in the twilight of your career, I don't know that there are any better than the Phoenix Suns. You go to L.A. and yeah, you could help. But are they a championship frontrunner with a soon-to-be 39-year-old?

old LeBron James and Anthony Davis, who is unpredictable with his health. The Clippers, same questions. Like on paper, great. But are they better than Phoenix? Because I don't know how you can count on Kauai and Paul George to play a full season after the last couple of years. The sons, in addition to being the place he wants to be, are represent the situation that makes the most sense for him. So I'm very interested to see what happens between the couple of days between the draft and that June 28th period where they have to make a decision on the guaranteed portion of that contract. I think that's what's going to come down to in Phoenix, whether they valued Chris Paul or that salary cap slot that can be created by waving and stretching Chris Paul.

I hate the idea of Chris Paul staying on the Suns. It just doesn't make any basketball sense to me. And I get it from his perspective, like it's home. And I agree with you, like even though I think the Lakers could be better than the Suns next year. The sons are probably a safer bet, just simply but from the standpoint of health and youth of their superstars, right? But, you know, when I look at that team, it's kind of a redundancy. It's another high pick and roll point guard that relies heavily on pull-up jump shooting that does not generate rim pressure. And they've already got two of those guys who are better than him. And, you know, it's funny when I, if you asked me like, hey, like Jason, what kind of point guard would you want

playing alongside Devin Booker and Kevin Durant? It'd be a guy like Bruce Brown. Like a big athlete that can take point of attack defense assignments that generates rim pressure like bruce so like especially in semi-transition just can hit the jets and and put real pressure on the rim which is something Kevin Durant, Devin Booker can get a little bit lax with sometimes. Now that's that's an example of a player that would be very difficult for them to pull off. But when I talk about archetype of player, that's kind of what I look at. What I look at with Chris Paul, especially when I think about his point of attack defense deficiencies right now, I think he's got to play with a real rim protector. And that's why I like the idea of both the Los Angeles Lakers and then another team that

I'd be considering. And I know it's probably the last thing on their mind because they're in the middle of the NBA finals right now, but the Miami Heat. Because a legitimate screen and roll big man that would have excellent chemistry with Chris Paul, but most importantly would buy him the ability, the leeway to be very physically aggressive on defense at the point of attack. So like, hey, don't worry so much about getting beat off the dribble. Disrupt the guy, funnel him to me and I'll help you on the backline, like that kind of thing. That's why I don't love the clippers fit because they're not a team that has great rim protection. But, you know, I'm with you. Like, I think he absolutely can help a team. I just, when I look at this specific

sun situation, I just feel like if you're, if you're the Phoenix Suns and you're playing Chris Paul big minutes in a playoff series, I feel like that's leaving meat on the bone, so to speak. I just think there's better options there. Yeah, look, I mean, Bruce Brown, he could fit into probably that salary slot there. I mean, it's hard to predict what the market's going to be for Bruce because there there are teams out there that could really overpay him. Oh, yeah. You know, Houston could go out there and say, we need a defensive-minded guy at point guard and also a guy that, you know, knows how to win and is someone that is a stable veteran that you're trying to bring in. They could pay him a bunch of money. Detroit could pay him a bunch of money. San Antonio could pay him a bunch of money.

There's a lot of teams out there that could offer Bruce Brown and probably will offer Bruce Brown more than more than Phoenix could. But I do agree he makes some sense there. I think the problem is like there are guys that make sense, but what happens if you're left with nothing, right? And not like you're counting on campaign or whoever it is at that point guard slot that's not better than Chris Paul.

And all of a sudden you let Chris Paul go and got nothing in return. I think that's the biggest fear in Phoenix, right? now that they could wind up shut out of a player that they believe is better. From Chris's perspective, I mean, I like the Miami idea. I think two teams to watch as dark horses. One, one is Memphis because, and they were to offer kind of what you're talking about. Their rim protection on that back line with Darren Jackson, Stephen Adams, when he's healthy. And, you know, if you're Memphis, and there's the anticipation around the league that it's

going to be 30-some-odd games that John Morant gets when, when Adam Silver ultimately announced suspension, which could happen as early as this week. I mean, at the finals end on Monday, I don't think the NBA is going to waste much time in announcing that decision. You not only get somebody that could play right away, but, you know, rest of the season, you can get a professional in that locker room, which clearly that team needs with what's gone on this year. And Boston's the other team I thought about as well.

I mean, the Celtics, among their issues going into next year, which include finding another big in that rotation, they need playmaking. That was badly missing in the playoffs last year. And Marcus Smart has been above and beyond where I thought he'd be as a point guard. But these last couple of playoffs, there's just been that little missing piece of a playmaker in that rotation. Now, that kills them defensively because they can't be that Switch Happy team that, you know, Ime Adoka and now Joe Missoula has adopted. But, you know, that could be someplace that could, a team that could pursue him at the right price as well.

I absolutely love the Memphis idea. That makes so much sense. You're going to be without your point guard, likely almost half the season. He steps in and helps maintain your position in the standings. Specifically, that team forget about even the locker room presence, even just from a basketball standpoint, without John Morant, they don't have any half-court shot creation. Desmond Bain is more of like a curling, you know, shooter type of guy that,

and I will say I was impressed. I was really impressed by Desmond Bain. that Lakers series and some of the high-level shot creation he demonstrated in like game four, game five area. But that that makes so much sense. And then the idea would be kind of like the way they use Tyos Jones in like a two-guard lineup with John Morant. You end up playing Jai and Chris, if you have to at a certain point later on the series. I think he could shop Tyos Jones. I think he shot Tyos Jones too. And he's great. Because if you're really going to part ways with Dylan Brooks, and that is obviously the direction they're going, you've got to get somebody replaced them.

Like I hated the idea. I hated that when the news came up, they wouldn't resign Dylan Brooks under any circumstances. All right, well, then you better have a 6-6 wing defender, you know, ready to go because, you know, the guys you have, Zaire Williams, they're not it. Like, that's not, those aren't the guys. And look, you've got a wealth of draft picks you can use to make a deal. But Tyos Jones could be someone that really interests NBA teams, both as a starter and, you know, as he's built the best backup point guard in the NBA. So it creates some flexibility for you in in making a deal, which I think Memphis also needs to make to get to that championship level.

Yeah, and if you could get Chris Paul, that buys you the leeway to be able to get rid of Tyos Jones and use that asset to bring back the wing that they need. That makes a ton of sense to me. All right. So before we get out of here, where are we at with the Kyrie Irving pending free agency? I, my gut just says he's going back to Dallas,

but I'm really curious to hear what you've heard in the research that you've done. Yeah, I mean, nothing but that. The recruitment of LeBron was kind of eye-rolling, at least among the people I talked to in the NBA. I have not heard anything close to a suggestion that LeBron would be into it. Not the least of which is he can't just go, right? Like they have to do a deal and, you know, Dwight Powell and whatever, whatever deal. Let's give up the rest of the athletes. so they have absolutely nothing.

Yeah. And not to mention, it doesn't make any basketball sense, really, either, having three ball dominant guys and no defenders on that team. But how that reporting and that information leak that was out there was interpreted was kind of Kyrie sending a message to Dallas that he can be a guy that helps the Mavericks bring guys in, right? Because that's been a Dallas problem over the last like two decades, really under the Mark Cuban regime. They have not been able to lure free agents. Guys just don't go there.

It's not a criticism of Cuban who does a lot for players and is as, you know, player-friendly as any owner in the NBA. And they've got Luca Donchich, which you would assume guys want to play with, but just haven't had any success. This was interpreted by many people I talk to you as Kyrie saying, you know, I can be that guy that brings guys in. You bring me back at the right dollar figure and, you know, I'll help you, you know, build the pieces around that we need to win a championship.

I just think the marriage between Kyrie and Dallas is just one of necessity at this point. The Mavericks can't afford to just let him walk away. And there will not be an offer out there for Kyrie Irving that matches his financial need, his financial ask. Like everything about Kyrie Irving needs to be viewed through the prism of him looking for a big contract. That's what he's been about. That's why he pushed his way out of Brooklyn because they weren't willing to give him the type of deal he's looking for. and that's why all this stuff is playing out in the media in real time right now. So I just expect Dallas to make him a competitive offer, a compelling offer.

And Kyrie will, you know, not, I don't think he'll sign it right away, but I think he'll quickly realize that, you know, as much as you might want to play in Los Angeles with LeBron James, you know, the Lakers have made it pretty clear. They're not gutting the roster to bring Kyrie Irving in, which is really what they'd have to do to clear that requisite cab space. there will not be a Phoenix reunion with Kevin Durant in his future. And I don't anticipate one of these rebuilding teams like Detroit or San Antonio or Houston going out there and splurging on Kyrie Irving. I think the Mavericks need Kyrie because they're what they gave up.

And Kyrie needs the Mavericks to make the most money. It will probably be the last big contract of his career. So my belief it's fueled by what most other people around the league I talk to believe is that eventually Kyrie will be back in Dallas. Okay, so before I respond, Gun to your head, Kyrie signs with Dallas. What does the deal look like? I think it's a three-year close to max-level contract

with incentives to get to a guaranteed mark on the fourth year, whether it's a number of games played or whatever Dallas can do to incentivize to get him there. I don't have a problem paying Kyrie max-level dollars on a short-term deal. Like, I think when he's healthy and out there on the floor, or he's still worthy of a max level contract, especially in today's NBA. It's just a number of years.

Like, you can't commit four years guaranteed to this guy. You can't do it because, I mean, you know, I actually kind of like this part of it likes Kyriek because I do think that he's got some fans across the league and, you know, in terms of guys inside locker rooms and I think he's a special talent, you know, when he's at his best. But the facts are refutable.

He forced his way out of Cleveland because he didn't want to be there. He was part of the reason of the toxicity in Boston's locker room that ended their chances of doing anything. He muscled his way out of Brooklyn when they were something like 20 and 1 in the previous like 21 games before Kevin Durant went out with that injury. He blew up their chances of winning a thing. So how can you commit, you know, four years guaranteed to this guy? So I get the feeling that there will be a settling on a three-year type of deal

with the kind of incentives in place that if Kyrie is healthy and available, he is going to be able to play. And the specific, like, catastrophic mix of ingredients here is Kyrie's personality and the fact that it's a marriage of necessity, like you said. Because I agree. Like, like, there's no doubt that if Kyrie would, like, could pick anywhere. He picked the Likers. They specifically need what he brings to the table. Like, they absolutely need high-level shot creation from the guard, from the guard position, especially with the way that LeBron's aging.

It's a bigger, you know, stage for him. It makes a ton of sense for him to play alongside Anthony Davis. in the coming years after LeBron James retires. But obviously, just by virtue of what you were talking about in his pursuit of this long-term contract, he just was never going to be able to get that with the Lakers unless they were fortunate enough to get to make the trade at the deadline, which Dallas scooped them underneath.

But, you know, the thing that specifically concerns me is the middle of the season next year with Dallas. Because I'm glad you pointed out the fact that Kyrie's talent is worth the max. because too often when we have these discussions, people are like, oh, it's Kyrie being Kairi again. And it's like, yeah, well, Kyrie being Kari also equals being awesome at basketball. Like, he's still incredible at what he does. But what I think about is like, okay, we've got a, we've got a three-game losing streak,

culminating in an ugly Christmas day loss. And they're like 12 and 17, and they still don't have the horses on the wing. Like because we know Kyrie doesn't really want to be there, it just seems to make it that much more likely that he would try to implode the situation. And to me, this is headed towards a textbook. I'm going to get my long term deal and then eventually work my way towards a trade unless things go perfectly, which it's just, again, and I don't understand. I'm sure Dallas has some sort of plan in mind, but they need so much in terms of size and athleticism that like I'm not sure even if in one off season they're capable of a, obtaining that. And so I'm a little concerned with them, especially in an off-season where you and I both know, especially after Denver just bullied everybody on their way to the trophy, most likely, that teams are going to be on the hunt for size and athleticism. That's going to be the,

every guard that looks like Bruce Brown is going to be the guy that they want. Every forward that can give you 20 or like, you know, 80% of the Aaron Gordon experience, experience, that guy's going to be, you know, a hot commodity in this particular off-season. So I don't really necessarily see a version of that working out super well. Yeah, and what are like, let's say everything goes perfectly next year, where Kyrie plays 70 games, Luca plays 75, you know, Tim Ardoin, Jr. is healthy. Everybody's healthy in that rotation. Is that like a four seed, a five seed? I mean, the depth of the Western Conference is, is not changing in the next year. In fact, it's probably going to get better as,

you know, the Pelicans reenter the mix when Zion's healthy. And you see, and, you see, some of these younger teams that are coming up. The thunder. Yeah, the thunder are probably going to be a playoff team next year. If Chet Holmgren is anything close to what people think he is and the organic growth within that organization. I just like it's a best case scenario, it's a shorter ceiling, which doesn't change the necessity of it. Dallas still has to do it because they can't run the risk of Luca Donch's looking around in a year going, what's the plan here? Like I'm in the prime of my career.

I'm an MVP candidate and I'm competing for play in slots or I'm getting beat in the first round. Like in today's NBA, that's the nightmare scenario. So I get why they have to do it. I just think I just don't see the pathway for this team to evolve into a championship contender over the next two or three years. And that's a big time problem for Dallas. And the point is, is it might take two or three years. and how long before one of those two guys goes off the rails in the process. All right, guys, that's all we have for today.

Chris, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time. I always have so much fun talking basketball with you, and I hope we get to do it a lot more over the course of the next year. Volume. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

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