The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - Kevin O'Connor on how SGA broke Pacers defense + how Haliburton can succeed vs. Thunder | NBA Finals

Episode Date: June 10, 2025

Yahoo Sports basketball analyst Kevin O'Connor joins the show to react to the NBA Finals through two games including how Shai Gilgeous-Alexander has become unstoppable, how Tyrese Haliburton can be more aggressive, what the Oklahoma City Thunder and Indiana Pacers have to do to win the series, and more.   #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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see dkng.c.c.o slash audio. I'm here at the volume. Happy Monday, everybody. Hope all you guys had a great weekend. I texted Kevin O'Connor last week to see if he could get him on to talk some NBA finals. And in the text message, I said, fingers crossed for 1-1. And here we are 1-1 as the Pacers did some pacer things on Thursday last week to get us into a 1-1 matchup. Lots of interesting stuff to get into.

What I want to do today is just kind of zoom out from the first two games and talk about some of the biggest dynamics that are swinging the series one way or another. Kevin's been someone that I've admired for a lot. long time from afar. I've been lucky to come on his show a couple times. First appearance here on Hoops Tonight. One of my favorite people covering the game, Kevin, how are you, man? I'm doing excellent, Jason. It's an honor to be on your show. What you've built is so awesome. Get that YouTube plaque. Rewarded with that, with all the hard work, you guys and your team have done. Yeah, so it's cool to be on your show. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's weird. I'm like irrationally excited about the plaque, but I wonder if that's just like our generation and just like the different types of things that we get

excited about like it's so funny it's just like like you know a little foam plaque but it's something that it's a physical reward it's better than just like an email it's like something physical that you can feel and touch it's awesome but they still do that yeah exactly uh we were talking before the show i wanted to quickly ask you uh so obviously you do a lot of draft work in addition to covering the league at large and this year's draft is just so much more talent heavy at the top and so do you actually like this year more in terms of like the workflow or do you enjoy drafts like last year where you don't have the obvious stuff at the top but like there's so much to get into with like the high variance guys down the list what does that been like for you i mean i think for me like i enjoy it

all equally in terms of like my side of things because it's there's stars in every draft like it's just like there's always going to be guys that end up being stars so how do you find those guys who It's always fun debating who are the guys you like more than other people, who are the people that you like less than others and why. It's like last night I watched like every single Dylan Harper miss. And I tracked where he missed. I tracked like that he missed long, short, left, right, backboard. Like I like doing that stuff. That's fun to do for me, regardless of the quality of the draft.

But it is more fun when more people care about the draft and more people care about the draft and when there's prizes in the draft. And Cooper flag being a prize at the top, Dylan Harper, a lot of people. do consider a prize. I'm not quite there with him being some generational guard. I think he's really good. But I think next year in 2026 is really going to be probably the most fun draft class that I've ever covered. I've been doing draft coverage since 2013. My first draft guide was in 2014. But like next year, man, like there's like three or four number one pick quality guys. Camboozer at Duke, Darren Peterson at Kansas, and then AJ de Bonza, a native of Brockton, Massachusetts, where I'm also from doing a BYU, at least those three.

And so, like, next year, I think it's going to be insane with all three of those guys in college basketball, all playing for big schools as well, BYU, big time on the rise. So I think next year could be like the peak of my draft coverage and all the years I've been doing it. But it's fun for me personally every single year. No, I totally agree. like there's I find joy in doing projects that don't perform super well to just because we love our jobs and there's and there's you know joy you're telling me Dylan Harper missed this is being tracked isn't going to perform well. The funny thing though is like like it's I was so pleased like we we ended up in a pretty big number after game one of the of this series and like that just made me so happy because I was like first of all it's like thunder pacer's you know it's this like relatively small. of market matchup. And it's ultimately our job is fun when people care. And so I totally get that.

Like it's like you can find joy in the minutia and we're never going to stop doing that stuff. But there's no doubt that when the people are invested, it gets to be a ton of fun. Kevin does great work covering the draft. Make sure you guys follow him on Twitter. And is your draft guide out yet officially. Yeah, draft guide is on Yahoo Sports. So you can find it just, you know, it should be pinned in my profile on social media, but just search Kevin O'Connor, NBA draft guide 2025. whoever your favorite search engine is and it'll pop up. So moving to the series, the number one dynamic that I have found to be most fascinating between the first two games is Shea Gilders-Alexander in his overall approach.

Was there anything that stood out to you in particular from the first two games in just the way that Shea approached generating shots for his team? You know, I felt like he was playing a bit more to, his speed in game two, but I kind of disagreed with, you know, Doris Burke on the broadcast said she was being overaggressive during game one. I disagree with that. I felt like the game required it from him. His teammates shot 25 of 68 in game one, 37 percent, like pretty horrible.

I felt like they needed 30 shots from Shea in game one, whereas in game two, obviously he got to the line a little bit more. He took only 21 shots, not 30 shots. teammates also shot significantly better. So I felt like he gave OKC what they needed in game one, but I do feel like he came out in game two with a bit more pace on his end of things on top of some of the tactical changes, you know, logo, logo pick and rolls further out, you know, more post-ups and all that. Like I was okay with his game one performance, though.

So I didn't really subscribe to some of the criticism of him in game one. This is awesome because we disagree. So that will make for a fun little debate here off the top. So like I, I agree in general with the idea that there are times, especially for a scoring archetype. And I would argue that the playmaking archetypes over the years, the Yokich is, the LeBron's, the Halliburton types, there are situations where they kind of need to be more aggressive than they are because their teammates aren't super comfortable. I did think that Shea played a little bit of a role in his team going out of rhythm in the first game. Just simply with, like, I'll give you an example.

There was a play where in the, it was in like the, I think it was in the late first quarter last night, where he's in a ball screen and he's attacking Thomas Bryant. And Hartnstein just wipes out Aaron E. Smith on the screen. And he comes downhill and he has Thomas Bryant and kind of like a drop coverage. And he's got a pretty good look at like a little pull-up 17-footer around the right elbow area. but T.J. McConnell's kind of sagging in off of Chet off of the left wing. And he's sitting behind Thomas Bryant just right off of that like left-handed drive. So it's like he's not there

bothering the pull-up shot, but he's making it so that the drive, he couldn't like, couldn't like snake the pick and roll to try to get back over to his left hand or anything like that. And instead he just throws a little pitch out to Chet Home, we're on the left wing and T.J. McConnell closes out, he pump bakes, he runs past him and he ends up hitting a three. And it felt to me like that was a little, that was a pull-up jump shot that both him and J. Dub were just taking in game one that like kind of 15 to 17 on the shot clock type of, uh, of like decent shot that we know he can make. And I remember in the moment, you know what's so interesting, Kevin. I remember in

the moment watching game one being like, like, oh, like, Shay's attacking the finals. Like he is, he is not letting himself, you know, shrink or feel uncomfortable. He's like, I'm going to find a way to get comfortable out here by taking these shots that I know that I can make. And I thought that just in general, his approach was a little bit more geared towards hunting advantages in game two versus hunting his shot. There were some pretty significant differences in the numbers. They had a 96 offensive rating in the half court in game one. They had a 116 half court offensive rating in game two. Now, obviously, as we know, part of that is just guys knocking down shots, but they also generated more. rated 23 unguarded catch and shoot jump shots in game two, just 15 in game one.

As a team, they threw 232 passes in game two compared to 207 passes in game one. I did think he in general just kind of like let the game come to him a little bit more, which allowed him to, again, this stuff is a lot, in a lot of cases like super, supernatural in terms of discussing when we're talking about rhythm and flow. and it's like it's very difficult to quantify these things and and it's always going to be a certain amount of like subjectivity and it's up for debate. But I did think that Shea just in general made a bit a little bit more of an effort to kind of keep the ball popping around some quicker decisions. Some of those reads earlier in the clock taking some of those tougher midrange jump shots

in later clock situations or as a counter sprinkling in aggression just to keep the defense on but like at the same time, I did think his floor game was a little bit better. That said, I do agree with you that the young guys were more comfortable in this game. And that certainly helps. And a lot of the times, you know, these guys will react based on what their personality traits are. Like when Shea sees his teammate struggling, he's going to think, he's going to think shoot the ball, right? Just like when Tyrese sees his teammate struggling, he's going to confront the issue by trying to pass the ball more. So, like, I guess my take is just that I thought that he,

kind of was more of an active participant in the team's rhythm in game two. I mean, I think, I think like where you're hitting on, like, the supernatural aspect, you know, the feel and, like, it's these things like you can't understand by just looking at the numbers, right? Because if you look at the numbers, which I have, game one, he made 38 passes, his teammate shot 2 of 11 on the assist opportunities. In game two, he made 39 passes. his teammates shot 8 of 15 on assist opportunities. So his teammates shot better off of his passes in game two.

They shot horribly in game one, whether he was passing the ball or somebody else is passing them the ball, or they were self-created shots. But to your point, that's where I think you and I agree, is that I did feel he was just more comfortable in game two. He was just more comfortable, whether that was due to his approach in the game, to your point, coming out early,

looking for his teammates. Most of his passes in game one came in the second, third, and fourth quarter, not as much the first quarter, setting a tone for his team looking to pass, or whether it was due to game planning as well, because O'KC was setting screens further out, more logo, logo pick and rolls, where, you know, you have Indiana going over screens in those situations where I feel like maybe you want to go under when it's that far out. And you have him posting up a handful of times as well. Like I feel that's where I feel the biggest difference is that I thought in game one,

there wasn't as much variety as there was in game two from Shea. Because like I mentioned this on my podcast last night. I had Adamades from All-NBA on and like him and I were talking about, yeah, Adam's the best. And like him and I were talking about SGA as well. And like I mentioned to him, you know, there's this one play in the late mid or late third quarter where SGA split a pick and roll, Hartinstein was on the short roll.

He found him immediately because he was, you know, SGA got pressured. He split the pick and roll. Then Hartnstein found Caruso on a cup. But then the next play, SGA got posted up on the left block and OKC cleared out everything for him. He drew attention, kicked it out. OKC swung it around the horn and found Caruso in the right corner for three. So it's like, I feel OKC put him in different spots on the floor more often.

And maybe these things are all connected. where like him looking for the pass more is in part due to some game planning here with putting him in different areas of the floor versus Indiana, kind of knowing what Indiana was doing in game one, as Dagnon called it after game one. It was a feel-out game. And maybe that's where SGA felt it out, and he just felt overall more comfortable,

and the game planning was better, and the teammates just made more shots. Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I did the same thing. I was like, I was like, I'm feeling this strong kind of vibe, that Shay's hunting his opportunities more as a passer in game two, so I wanted to check the numbers. And I saw the same stuff you did in terms of like the passing numbers being the same. And my rationalization was that with that was exactly what you said, which is if in game one, I think he took 11 shots in the first quarter.

I actually thought Shay made all of the kickout reads in the fourth quarter of that game. Like, Shea was fantastic in the fourth quarter of that game, getting dribble penetration through those guard, guard action or or hitting the guy slipping out of the action. and like the paces were throwing sometimes two, three dudes helping at the basket, and he was making the kickout passes. He did make those passes. The difference to me was in game two. He started the game that way. And I've just always been a believer that if you invest in rhythm, basically early in the game, if you target these opportunities so guys feel comfortable, there's just more of an opportunity for them to be comfortable throughout the game. That said,

love a good disagreement, love a good argument. I love the other stuff you hit on. Like, I thought the left block postups were like a huge development in game two. It just, it puts the ball in Shea's dominant hand. So it's really easy for him to pass out of that. And like when he gets into single coverage, he was able to draw fouls or score against Nemhart and in Mathrin. But at the same time, he was able to use it as just a easy vehicle with which to get the defense in rotation. I, the part I want to zoom in on.

And I also just thought I thought you mentioned this too in your bit. Like just in general, like it felt like they were more. willing to have Shea sit off ball and let other people run action, which was another part. Like there was a play in the late second quarter or late first quarter where like it's like, like she's just literally standing off ball while Isaiah Joe's running action with Hartnstein. You know what I mean? Like they were just a little bit more willing to let other people get involved in the offense. And I thought that that was contagious and that it just kind of flowed down the roster.

As far as the pick and roll coverages go, this is where I think it gets fascinating. So whenever we're having these discussions, we have to lead with saying, there is no good way to guard Shea. He's just incredible because like any alternative that we're going to throw out here is going to come with its own set of issues. But one of the things that stood out to me in game one, I thought in the second half they were a little bit softer in their pick and roll coverages,

which is why She started to get some of his stuff in drop coverage. But everything at the level in this series, I think has been brutal for Indiana. And the two problems, I should say the three problems that they keep having is one, Shea rejecting screens. So when they bring up whoever it is, whether it's Topin or Turner or Thomas Bryant, that guy's setting up to get on the side of the screen

that they're expecting Shea to go. And then when he rejects the screen, there's nobody there, four on three. Or they'll throw that hard hedge or switch with that guy and he'll quickly split that. Now they're gone, four on three. Or the dude will slip out of it and he throws the pass over the top and it's four on three.

So to Shea's credit, he has butchered this coverage with his ability to generate the four on threes. Do you think Indiana needs to consider pivoting to a different coverage to try to have a better chance to contain Shea? Is this why we started to see a little bit of zone, you think? Is that possible? Indiana sprinkling that in a little bit in the middle of the third quarter? Because Indiana, they don't really run zone at all.

But then again, neither did Minnesota, neither to Denver. And then Denver, like a third of their possessions in the half court were zone defense. I think from Minnesota it was like 10% of their possessions in the half court were zone defense against Oklahoma City. With Indiana, entering this series, I believe the number was they had three total possessions of playing zone. Those are like sideline out of bounds plays when they would do that. So like, but after makes in the third quarter for a short stretch they were playing zone, is that why you think possibly because of the issues with regardless of whatever the type of covers are using against shape, pick and rolls, that that could be the answer.

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Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So I think that in general, having a plan for penetration is the move. Now, that could be zone. Because, like, if we look at it, so, like, what are the alternatives? So if they're showing high, whether that's a hedge or it's a ball screen coverage with their bigs,

you're giving up these four on threes because you have two guys that are out, way out by the perimeter, right? So like in theory, you could try like more of a softer switch. Um, you could try a deeper drop. There's all these like different things you can try. To me, the softer switch, the deeper drop in particular, at the very least, you're going five on four instead of four on three. Meaning like as he comes off the screen, you have one of those two guys who was originally assigned to Shay at least back trying to help facilitate your plan for dealing with him.

zone is another way to do that. The thing that scares me with zone, and we did see last night both teams score against the zone in the brief situations where we saw it. But I think O'KC's been really good against zone in this postseason too. And like that's the thing is like we're talking about a really good basketball team.

That quite frankly, like for all the stuff that we've talked about Oklahoma City being young and inexperienced over the years, every puzzle that's been placed in front of them in this postseason run, they've eventually solved. They've had their issues for briefs, brief stretches, but they've eventually solved. It's even like game one.

Like game one, it's the super aggressive help on drives, and they have a rough offensive night, and they solve it one night later. You know, so it's like at a certain point, I don't know that there is an easy answer, but at this point, this is what I keep coming back to. If you're going to get beat up there anyway, like if you're going to get dribble penetration, might as well have it function as a one on one rather than a one on two, meaning like have that fourth defender back instead of having these like two man down situations where Shay just toasted someone off the dribble and now Neesmith and Turner

are standing up at the top of the key trying to rotate out of it. So like I guess I guess it comes down to just whether it's zone, whether it's a deeper drop, functioning in a way where you keep that fourth defender in a position to help and rotate. Yeah, and I think that's going to be the puzzle for Indiana, really, in this series. And as you said, OK, C's a good team. Maybe they're an all-time team. Like, there are 68 win regular season team. They've had an unbelievable postseason.

They very well, this might be the start of something special. We'll see how the series continues. But that's the issue for Indiana in this entire series, as it was for Minnesota, as it was for Denver. And don't forget they destroyed Memphis as well in the first round. but like there just may not be real answers for Oklahoma City with their amount of guys who can generate offense off the dribble because it doesn't need to just be SGA. You said it earlier. Other guys are getting opportunities to create in game two for the thunder.

But every guy on that floor can do something with the ball in their hands or they can do something in motion. Like even Caruso, he wasn't just hitting like standstill threes in game two. like some of them were off of movement and that's how it's caruso and then you have jalen williams and chet homegren who had terrible game ones j dub a bit better i thought in game two chet homegrin was awesome after a really rough start for him in game too he was great the rest of the game but like every guy on that roster even Aaron wiggins can do something off the dribble so it's like even if you do even if you contain sGA there's somebody else on this okayc team regardless of the lineup Dagnol has out there, they can do something with the ball on their hands.

Even Isaiah Hartinstein on the short roll can dribble once or twice to get to the cup or make the smart pass. That's what makes them really, I think, an impossible puzzle to solve. And sometimes, I know it's like very like simple to say that that's where the zone, I think, you force them to become a three point shooting team. Their frequency of threes goes over 50% when you're when you play zone defense against them. You're just gambling that they have an off shooting night. when you do that because you're giving up open threes.

You're just hoping and praying that they have a poor shooting night. So that's what I think Minnesota and Denver, especially the Nuggets, kind of gambled on doing. Because OKC is going to shred you either way. But I do wonder if that's what we'll see from Indiana because everything you said, Jason, about, you know, man coverages or pick and roll coverage is like, there's no, there's no real answer against the thunder. And Shay, like, Shay is not. the most vertical poppy athlete that you'll ever watch. But his ability to change direction and like go from stops to full speed is truly remarkable.

And like, because that's the thing. Like people don't realize like they're not sending these dudes up to the level because they're worried about the pull up three. That's not what they're doing. Like, She's not a good enough pull up three point shooter to justify that. They're doing that to try to stop him from getting ahead of steam. And it's just not working. And like the other problem is, is you could sit back all you want, but he's just going to go

at that dude full speed and probably draw fouls or in. up getting around him anyway. Like he's just a huge pain and like the same sort of at the level coverages J. Dub was torching to like a chet attacking off the bounce in this game did a lot of a lot more work off the bounce. I thought he was unbelievable defensively last night too. I was watching the film like his switching and like he was getting stops on Halliburton. He was getting stops on McConnell. He was getting stops on Mathurin. He was get like it was he is so, so, so good. It's crazy to My guess is that what Rick Carlisle will do is going to game three, maybe with something involving a little bit softer at the level stuff, but I don't think he'll go to zone right away.

Where I think he would go to zone is when the shit hits the fan in Indy. So like when they find, whether it's in game three or game four, they find themselves down 10, 12 points. I think that's when he'll do it. And to your point, it changes the game. It takes them away from being a dribble drive and make. type of team to more of like a processing and shooting team, which again is even though they're awesome is not the thing that they're like most renowned for. So really, really fascinating

stuff on that end of the floor. The number, Jason, I just looked it up. Fifty-four percent of their shot attempts are threes against zone coverage in the playoffs. And then it's 39% of their shots are threes against man defense. So they're taking a ton of threes either way. But like going over half of your shot attempts from three. That that, that, it's really like, that's, you don't have a lot of choice against the thunder, right? Like the, the thunder are going to do what they want to do. But if you do play zone, that's where you can influence the types of shots that they're

taken. So I think you're right, though, like when shit hits the fan, if it happens in game three or four, Indiana, like Carlisle, like they once won a finals, the Dallas Mavericks against the Miami Heat. The difference is Dallas played a ton of zone all year long. and then really, you know, puzzled LeBron and Wade and Bosch in the finals against that Heedles team. But he did use it in a finals before. And like this is a guy who's used zone throughout his years as an NBA head coach, but not here in Indiana.

So I wonder if that's a card he's holding on to for the right, for the right specific moment when that time comes in the series. I'd be surprised if we don't see it in a continuous amount of time in a game at some point. That's a really good stat. Like an easy way to basically force Oklahoma City to settling for the majority of their shots from behind the three three point line is to go zone. And the stuff about not practicing zone in the regular season is a really interesting point two. The one thing that could work to Carlisle's advantage there is just the long schedule and just the extra off days to try to implement stuff. No game till Wednesday. Yeah.

There's no game till Wednesday, right? What are we going to do? Just draft stuff. That's all I'm going to be doing for two days. So Richard Jefferson and many others were upset last night with this was me. In the same way that you were disagreeing with the criticism of Shea, I was disagreeing with some of the criticism of Tyreys. Not so much, to me it's just less criticism.

It's more just reality in terms of who he is as a basketball player. But what do you make of the debates? The tordates comment from Richard Jefferson. Yeah, exactly. The tour dates. Which, by the way, he said in game one, too, for the record. He did. Minutes before.

She hit an amazing game winner. I'm sorry, Halliburton is an amazing game winner. How did you, like, what was your overall, like, response slash take to the stuff surrounding Tyrese and his aggression and all of that storyline? I mean, I feel like I'm team Richard Jefferson here and I have been all playoffs long that I think with Halliburne, I know he has some of his limitations as a creator generating space against, especially against, like, the elite defense of the thunder.

But, like, dude, sometimes I think he's just too passive earlier, early in these games when we see what he can do when he's aggressive latent games. Like he, 12 points on 5 of 6 in the fourth quarter alone, five points on 2 of 7 through the first three quarters. I just don't think Indiana has any chance of winning this series if Halliburton is taking only seven shots through the first three quarters of games. They're not going to win the series. Halliburton needs to be looking for a shot more early

or the Pacers need to design more actions to get him looks early in game speeds. He's two elite of a shooter off the catch, two elite of a shooter off the dribble, whether it's from three or from mid-range. And in this series, I looked up the shot distribution numbers this morning because he hasn't gotten to the rim at all. 7% of his shots in the series against Oklahoma City are in the restricted area, 22% in every other series in the playoffs. So almost a quarter of his shots were in the restricted area up until the finals and now it's only 7%.

They're forcing him into more paint shots, more mid-range shots, and even from three, he's not taking as many of those. So on self-created chances this is, the only self-created chances. So with Halliburton, if he's not getting into the basket, he's a near 50% guy on mid-range jumpers. I feel like in the same way that you said SGA took too many of those at times in game one, Halliburton is not taking enough of those, in my opinion. He is an elite mid-range shooter, but he's all about rim in threes. To me, I think that's an area that he can exploit that he doesn't enough because he's sticking to what he does. an elite level, but sometimes I think you need to take the B minus shot and not just always

look for the A plus play because sometimes the B minus player, the B play is the best thing you're going to get in a half-court possession against the Thunder. So I do think he needs to be more aggressive early in games. I personally think he should be taking 20 shots a game, not 14, 15 shots a game. And that's rooted in my belief of who he can be as a score and who he can be as a creator despite some of the athletic limitations against these elite defenders he's facing every single possession. Yeah, you know, what's so interesting is last night I was more like aggressive on this. And then the guy who kind of brought me back to Earth was actually Jackson.

And because my initial thought was like I'm watching him like because I'm watching him like trying to shake free of these guards. And he's really not for the most part. And so I was like, okay, like there's a reality to the fact that Tyrese is not the type of. athletic scoring guard that can just consist like that can pull kairie irving footwork out of his bag and like knock down these crazy shots but what jackson said to me at the start of the mailbag last night really got me thinking he was like he was like why doesn't he just take a few more of the questionable like like to what you're saying the b minus shots at the very least to try to maintain some more rhythm and it could free up some more of those opportunities where like the defense is reacting to him more because he's being more aggressive

And so then I kind of approached my rewatch this morning with that same kind of ideology in mind. And he's right. Jackson's right. There were there were specifically some drop coverage looks because what stood out to me last night is I was like, okay, yeah, the shots that he was getting in the fourth quarter were drop coverage looks. Like they ran a stack pick and roll that Oklahoma City didn't switch appropriately and he got a dunk. He shot a floater against drop. He shot a little right elbow jumper against drop. The toughest one he hit was that one coming off of the ball screen on the right wing that J. Dub.

contested very well and he hit like that three. But the point is, is he caught a rhythm. He caught a rhythm and then he made a tough shot, which is what happens when you take shots. You catch a rhythm and then you can start making some tough shots. And so I kind of have come back more towards the middle in the sense that like, I don't think Tyrese can solve this series by just like putting up 35 points a game, but he absolutely does need to be somewhat more aggressive. And to me, the example is just taking more of those drop coverage looks when they're So for instance, there was one where he came, it actually resulted in an illegal screen on Miles Turner, but there was a play where he came up of a ball screen at the top of the key in like the late second quarter,

where he came off and Hartnstein was six or seven feet back, but he was still over. And Turner was rolling, and he threw the pocket pass instead of just taking the pull-up three that was there. And my thing is like, Indiana actually did quite a bit of damage on action like that in game one on offensive rebounds. So it's like at the, it just put it up and Turner's crashing with the Hartnstein up not at the level, but containing you on the, and he's probably going to step up and contest, Turner's got a good shot in an offensive rebound there. So like, I just think in general, there's a few, there are definitely more opportunities for Tyrese to look to take some of those coverage beating shots. And at the end of the day, like, you have to be an active participant in your team survival. You can't be

a passive participant. And so to me, I'm kind of occupying that middle ground where I think he absolutely can be more aggressive. I just also don't think he can be, you know, 35 point per game guy, if that makes sense. It's understandable. I mean, like the stat I shared, 7% of his self-created shots are in the restricted area. That is not the stat of a guy, to your point, that is like this elite ball handler breaking down to the fender, Carrie Irving style or this overpowering brute force athlete who just gets to the room at will. He is not that. Tyrese Halliburton is one of one.

He's himself. Like there's really nobody else like Tyrese Halliburton currently in the NBA. But I think like you, like you said it, like Jackson said it last night to you, sometimes, I think he's going to take some of those shots. And like maybe there's certain nights he won't have to because Seaccham's on a heater or a niece is going crazy or or a nem hard it's his night like it won't always have to be that but i think there's certain games where haliburton needs to feel a moment and say okay it has to be me tonight and the example i always bring up to me like haliburton is so much like a younger yokic in the sense

that there was a time where yokic would have four shots in a game two shots in a game and because he thought well i'm being selfless i'm passing the ball to my teammates i'm I'm not a selfish player who jacks up shots. I want to make my teammates better. And then he learned, oh, wait a minute, me being selfless is actually doing the things that my team needs me to do because I'm this great as a player. And he learned how to be a dominant score to become a guy that's taking a ton of shots. And Halliburne is not Yolkich, to be clear, Yolkich is talking about a one-of-one, dominant, huge elite footwork, different type of player who can do those things. but I don't think Halliburton's quite learned that lesson yet

that for him to truly reach his potential and truly be the most selfless he could be for his team, sometimes that requires him taking those tough shots, sometimes that requires him being the guy who takes shots four or five possessions in a row. And I don't think he's learned that quite yet and maybe he'll learn it in the middle of the series because we have seen both Indiana and both Oklahoma City

both led by a ton of young guys on their team get better throughout the postseason. Maybe games three, four, however long this series goes, we'll see Hallibur and have a night like that and things click for him like, hey, okay, I can do these things. And sometimes I have to do these things for the greater good of my team.

Yeah, you know, it's fascinating with Halliburton in particular because I wonder if there's a big picture conversation to have about, because you mentioned the difference between him and Yokic. Yokic can go get 40, 45. Every night. Every single night. Yes. And so part, like I was actually talking about this last night on playback, if I remember correctly, like I wonder if Halliburton could ever crack into the top tier of superstars, like if he's even capable because of some of those limitations. But I do generally agree with the point, which is that, which is that each archetype has their demon. They have got to confront.

And the playmaking types, if you're not applying a certain amount of aggression, then they will play the pass. and your passing opportunities will not be as rewarded as they could be. Similarly as a score, you've got to show a willingness to beat double teams with the pass or you're going to be shooting over double teams your entire career. And so there's a certain amount of like that that is the demon that Tyrese has to confront. As we zoom out from the series, I came into this series thinking that Indiana had very little chance. I still view Oklahoma City as a substantial favorite. but from what I've seen in the first two games,

I actually do believe that Indy has a pathway. And it essentially stems around the fact that I think that they're fast enough to rush Oklahoma City's ball handlers enough. Like for instance, in the first quarter before things got ugly, I thought that Indy defended Oklahoma City well again. And it basically stems from the fact that, and I think I heard Zach Lowe was the first guy to call this out and God it's been great having Zach back.

Zach was talking about how some of these turnovers that Oklahoma City has comes from the fact that Indies defenders will stay attached. To me, I'm thinking it almost is like the ISO version of back pressure. Like in the same way in a ball screen, if you chase over the top and you stay attached, it forces the guy to drive into the teeth of your defense. He can't take a pull-up. Similarly, if you get beat in ISO, but you stay attached and you're pressuring from behind, it kind of forces him to rush the drive into traffic.

I think Nemhart and Neesmith can do just enough of that, as a team they rotate and contest just well enough that they can play Oklahoma City into some offensive lulls. And then on the other end of the floor, I think they've proven that when they don't turn the ball over and when they get the ball popping around and they, they kind of expand the advantage incrementally over possessions that they can score. So like I look at it as they can win this series. Hey, it's us to Jonas brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? Huge news. We've created our own podcast.

called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how did we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys?

I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going to be. down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, Hey Jonas, and then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that,

guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious. guest from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect.

We were God's chosen, Kingdom on Earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back. Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, meeting the president of Turkey. I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across. When Jacob met Levant this plant to a billion dollar fraud. But with two kings from entirely different worlds, Just how long can their empire survive?

The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind.

Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athlete themselves.

Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants.

answer. Sports Slice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicelife Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Where are you at? Where were you before the series and where are you at now with respect to each team's chance to win? Well, I picked OKC in 5 like everybody else on the planet seemed to do. and I didn't give Indiana much of a chance. I have too much respect for them to have not picked a sweep for OKC. And obviously OKC and 5 is still on the table.

But one thing I did say before the series was that if Indiana splits the first two games in the road, this will be a deep series. Because I initially thought that Indiana would split the games at home. And OKC would then win in game 5 at home. So I think we're going to see a split this week. that means we're going to at least see a game six. And at that point in the series, who knows? Who knows what can happen?

Indiana will host game six. Who knows? Anytime you reach a game six or a game seven, anything can happen. And the Pacers have proven me wrong. I thought they were just like a league pass darling during the season, like a really good regular season team, super fun. And then they'd just be a playoff team. they get eliminated, good story, fun team to watch.

I was wrong. I was wrong about them throughout the postseason. Here they are the NBA finals. And I very well could be wrong about them once again in the finals. Like, it's just, it's possible. I could be wrong about them. But I do think, okay, see, I still, I still think this team is special. I still think this team were witnessing the beginning of a really long run for them.

Whether that means dynasty, multiple championships or not, I don't know. You don't know how the complexion of the league will change, how other teams will evolve either. But I think we're at the beginning of like a really long sustained run of contention for the thunder. And this team is like this team is just better straight up. And one of the reasons why Indiana is able to be here, you know, Kenny Ackinson, the Cavs head coach said something after, uh, they got eliminated in the second round where he's like, you know, Indiana's, you know, speed and athleticism and their physicality. He talked about how there's like a mental edge to that for them to have the endurance to sustain that from start to finish in games.

And I don't feel like Cleveland ever matched that. New York never matched that from start to finish. OKC in game two, I felt like did match that, like that speed, that relentlessness, that toughness, like those intangible things that that has set the pacer's apart basically the whole season since the middle of December where things really started to Clever. for them. OKC has those athletes. They have the depth as well. They have the stars who embrace playing that way as well.

Like SGA was awesome on defense and game too. The amount of steals and deflections he had, like how active he was on switches against Siakum. I remember they tried to post him up once, and I think the second quarter, and he just reached his long arms around and just like snatched the ball out of the air. like okayc has that ability and in ways that New York and Cleveland don't have.

And that's where I feel like the Thunder, everything Kenny Atkinson said about the Pacers, I think you can also say about the Thunder, particularly their defense. So that's where I still lean heavily for the Thunder. But I've been wrong so wrong about the Pacers. I'm not going to say, oh, this time I'm right. I might be wrong again. I might be. Yeah, I don't believe you.

I've made the same mistake with them multiple times this postseason. I think the only series I picked them was the Knicks series. Because I could not, when I was picking the first round series, the image I could not get out of my head was Janus against the Celtics in 2022. Oh, yeah. I was like, in my head, I was like, we haven't watched Janus play healthy in a playoff series since then.

And it like didn't matter that the Celtics were better. He just, he just backpacked his team to within, you know, a striking. distance of winning that series. I, one of the things that I think is, I love the point you made about

like matching Indiana's like mental fortitude because like that is one of the most remarkable things to me about watching this Pacer's team is their basketball character. It is like the things they do all suck like running that much and like

one of the things that Indiana does that I think is really fascinating is like even when they give up an open three, they will throw a token close out. And what's fascinating about that to me is like they those guys know they know that NBA players when they're that open aren't seeing the late hand that comes like after the release but it's just part of their character it's like no this is what we do we close out we close out every single time and we run the floor every single time and we pressure the ball every single time it's like it's part of their character

as a team and Oklahoma City there's a reason why they won 68 games because they also attacked every single possession during the entire season and so they were able to match that and so the last thing before we get you out of here. I thought that Oklahoma City was able to hit a level of like physical leverage in this game just athletically that Indiana couldn't match. And so it got me thinking that Indiana's only pathway is to sweep the home games because in theory, if they won two and three or three and four, that would be a must win for Oklahoma City in game five. So you're going to get that same athletic leverage. And then in theory a game seven, trophies on the line, same sort of thing. I am not sure that Indiana can match it when they get to that point.

Do you think that Indiana has the ability to match Oklahoma City athletically when they need to? No, no, I don't. I don't. I don't. I think, I think, like, I'm not going to roll out Indiana winning the series, but OKC is just special, man, because they have those intangible qualities you're hitting on. They have the elite talent level, and they have the athletic edge. OKC had an all-time great regular season defense.

They very well might prove to have all-time great post-season defense as well. Halliburton hits the game winner in game one, an epic moment. But he hasn't been great, and neither was Anthony Edwards, and neither was Nicole Eokic. So, like, if this continues or even worsens for him,

like if it gets harder for him, because think about, like, OKC to get to this point, They saved their best coverage for Yokic in the closeout game, putting Caruso on him and swarming him. They had their best game against Edwards in the closeout game against Minnesota. They have cards that they're waiting to play, that we haven't seen hints of yet, against Tyrese Halliburne or against Andrew Namhart or against Pascal Seacom,

that they're waiting to use, that they haven't used it. And so they have that in the back of my mind as well when I think about how we've seen the Thunder close-out teams to get to this point, that we may not have seen actually what their best game plan is to win some of these series. So I'll still pick the Thunder to win in six now, not five, because I think Indiana will at least take one game at home in Indiana. But you know what? Maybe this is a 01-sixers-Lakers type of series as well, where Philly wins game one,

and then Lakers win the next four, and it's the beginning of a run for the Lakers. maybe that's what this is. And the Thunder are going to sweep their way after a gentleman sweep their way to a NBA finals championship. We'll see. I mean, do you agree there, Jason, that that's what we could see here? Yeah, I think if I had to guess what would happen the rest of the series, Indy wins game three and then Oklahoma City wins three in a row.

That's going to be my guess. I think there's like, there's like an Indiana first finals game. And God knows how long. I couldn't even tell you the last time they were in the finals. And then, uh, what was at what early 2000s, right?

And then you have the ball pressure element. Like I had a, I had an okay C fan ask, uh, like, or an Indiana fan asked last sign on playback. Like how does Oklahoma City get away with all these fouls? And it's like,

to me it's like so simple. It's like the team that comes out and plays with more physical force actually gets a better whistle. That's just always been the way it's been. Like if you come out and you physically kick a team's ass like you don't get called for foul. It's like the craziest thing. It's just how it works.

and I feel like it's just, and I'm okay with it too. I'm okay with the refs rewarding the more physically aggressive team. But Indiana is going to be that team in game three. And we know that Oklahoma City's offense is not rock solid. It can get knocked off its foundation from time to time. So I do think Indiana will get one. But every time Oklahoma City has been in a situation where they've had to win, where they've had to get the job done, even when they're in an ugly spot,

like down eight in game four against Denver in the fourth quarter, down nine in game five in the fourth quarter, they just keep coming through. And I'm more on your side of things. I think this is one of the special teams in NBA history. And I at this point would be really, really surprised. But I'm thankful for the Pacers because they have made this an entertaining series. And I was worried that it might not be.

And I will remember this Pacers team very fondly regardless of what happens. But Kevin, you've been very generous with your time today. I sincerely appreciate you coming on the show. Can you tell everybody where they can find your work? I appreciate it, Jason. And over at Yahoo Sports, a ton of written articles, a ton of draft coverage with my NBA draft guide. It's, I think, a year 12 of doing draft guides, draft coverage. So, yeah, draft is coming up in 16 days, kind of crazy.

So that's where a lot of my focus is right now next to the finals. So all that stuff over at Yahoo Sports or wherever my social channels are, wherever you get your stuff. It was good to see you, man. Everyone follow Kevin's work. That's all we have for today. As always, we sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. I'll have a mailbag coming out tomorrow, and then obviously we're going to be live on YouTube after the final buzzer of game three on Wednesday night. What's up, guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting hoops tonight.

It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys, I appreciate you guys. I'm us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast. called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts.

We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Joey Dardano, and on my new podcast, Hope from a Hypocrite, I'll be changing lives, helping people, need with thoughtful solutions. Sike, I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice. Join me and my comedian friends as we riff, rant, recommend some of the most legally dubious advice

known to me. This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from Hypocrite Wednesdays on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Edwin Castro, also known as Castro 1021.

And I'm Conky. best friend and business manager. And we've got a new show called The 1021 podcast. I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers. We also love sports. And with the World Cup right around the corner, we'll be breaking down the biggest storylines ahead of the big tournament here in the USA. Listen to the 1021 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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