The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - LIVE: Colin Cowherd On Knicks-Pacers Game 3

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

Colin Cowherd joins the show with Jason and they react live after the New York Knicks come back to win Game 3 of the Eastern Conference Finals over the Indiana Pacers. They discuss Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns leading a big comeback over Tyrese Haliburton and if the Knicks have a chance in the rest of the series. They also discuss Caitlin Clark’s impact on the WNBA and how she’s lifting the league to new heights with the Indiana Fever. #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see dkng.c.c.org.com slash audio. Welcome to Hoops Tonight here at the Volume. Happy Sunday, everybody. hope all of you guys are having a great weekend. Well, Colin Coward was very kind to join us tonight with this time. And this time two days ago, we were looking at a what looked like the Indiana Pacers on their way to potentially a sweep to go to the finals. We're talking about trading Carl Anthony Towns. Everyone's blowing a bunch of smoke about the thunder and how they're the all-time

great team. And now we're sitting here on Sunday evening and both series are two-one and very, very different. Colin, my initial read was just simply that this is more or less where the Eastern Conference finals should be at this point in that I thought the Knicks looked like the better team in game one and they blew it. And I thought the Pacers looked like the better team tonight that I thought they let their foot off the gas in a lot of ways. The Knicks did find some stuff and we'll get into that. But Carl Anthony Town steals this game just like Aaron Neesmith stole game one and it kind of feels like we're supposed to be two one indie and here we are two one in. Yeah, I mean, they're really different teams. At one point, the Pacers had a 16-0-0 fast-break points advantage. I mean,

you can tell Indiana always wants to push the pace. But tonight it was basically in the half court, Carl Anthony Towns, with Jalen Brunson off the floor for most of it, he had one of these Carl Anthony Towns games. And I think I've told you this before. It was a weird thing. I swear to God, I went to about six NBA games. He played in five of them. There was this stretch in L.A. every time I went to a game, he was playing. And he's, and in all of them, he had a quarter where he was the best player on the floor by a long shot. And he does this. And, you know, for a guy his size, like his first step for a guy his size, like he is quick. And then he gets by you and he's long and he's angular. And he's a handful. He's a handful for a big. And I've just seen him do stuff like this before. But I thought,

with Brunson off the floor. You know, sometimes when you're, when you're a really gifted player and you play with a ball-centric great player, this was Brunson in Dallas, you know, like he would be like, it was Lucas Show. And then you put him in New York. And this is one of those. We're in a weird way, it was like Carl Anthony Town.

The team was just looking for him to lead. And we both know that he can do this. He doesn't sustain it. He gets in foul trouble. He can be inefficient. He's flaky. But, and then I think, to your point, I think, I think they just, they had a series of really, the Pacers had a series of

really bad offensive possessions. And you looked up and you're like nine, seven, four, two lead. So this is what happens in the NBA. This isn't college. Like there's just, things happen quickly in the NBA and you looked up and you're like, oh, New York has totaled control emotionally. They just felt like they were going to win the game with about four left. You're like, Indiana can't get out of its own way here offensively. Yeah, even when it was a two or three point game with Indy still in the lead, it kind of just felt like New York was going to win at that point. Basketball is such a confidence in rhythm sport that like when the momentum shifts as

dramatically as it does, it can be difficult to reassert control of the situation. I mean, very similarly, that happened to New York. All of a sudden, their offense bogs down in game one, their offense bogs down. Suddenly Aaron East Smith's hitting every single three he takes. It just kind of changes the psychology of the game. I thought things really turned around in that late third quarter. It was so funny because Stan Van Gundy goes like, I'm not sure I like this lineup. It's a bunch of guys who can't score and they need to score. And he goes, he's like, who's going to be the guy who brings the offense for the Knicks and ended up being Duce McBride. And they went on like a seven oh run and it cut it down to 10 going into the fourth quarter. And that's what they were talking about. They're like they just need to get it down to 10. And then as soon as they got into the fourth quarter in striking distance, Carl, Carl, Carl, Carl Anthony Towns gets going. It's the three point shooting. It's the like you mentioned, the first.

and then once he gets that first step, the bigs all try to catch up to him, but he's just so good at powering through with that battering ram of a left arm as he goes to the rim. And once he got going, this is the most interesting part. You mentioned it, Colin. Indy's offense got shook. This is the first time in a long time. I've seen Indy's offense get their foundation shaken, the way that the Knicks did. And what it really came down to is that stretch with Brunson out. you know, it's been so fascinating calling because it's different than the Celtic series. In the Celtic series, Kat and Brunson were asked to defend one-on-one. Very different kind of idea.

The Celtics succumbs to their switching and they just tried to attack Brunson and Kat one-on-one, and they did a good job. But in this series, the job for Brunson and Kat is much more sprinting in rotation, getting back in transition defense. It's a lot of like mental focus and energy-related stuff. And those guys have been rough in this series. series in that department. But in that fourth quarter stretch with Brunson off the floor for most of it, it's Deuce McBride out there, a substantially better defensive player. Hat was giving the

requisite effort in rotation. And one of the things with this Pacer's team, Seacum and Halliburton can play one-on-one, but that's not necessarily what they do at a superstar level, right? And so if you rotate and you make them take contested shots, they might just go cold and miss them all. And that's what happened in this game. They don't have a Brunson, a guy who's just a indomitable one-on-one force who can step in and get great shots. And so like that, that really is the key. If there's any hope for New York in this series, and I still feel pretty strongly that Indiana is going to get it done. But like if there's any hope for New York in this series, it's they got to fly around and rotate. And they got to, they got to match Indiana's speed and pace and energy as much as

they can in this series. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's one of the reasons Indiana plays with pace is because Rick Carlisle knows that's when they're at their best because Turner can run. See, Ackham runs the floor really well. But they got into a, Indiana got into about, and it wasn't like two minutes. It was like six minutes. They got into a six minute stretch where McConnell's getting, he got one short look and then he forced one. And then, you know, again, they have, like, Knee Smith can get hot, but he's not going

to beat people off the ball. And you're just watching it and you're like, oh, this is mud. This doesn't work at all. And, you know, it's. I think the Pacers are a better team. I think there's certain things the Knicks need to do. I think what happened to the Pacers tonight can happen to the Knicks more often, where they feel a little stock if Brunson's not hitting.

And if I recall, I think Halliburton was out for a little bit. He was out of it when they got out of rhythm. Then he came back in. And he was sort of asked to, hey, kickstart the rhythm. And it's like, and he did hit a three. but it's weird when he is whereas Bronson doesn't control the pace, he controls some scoring.

Halliburton can control scoring and the pace. So when you take him out and then you insert him back and it's like, okay, now guys, I'm going to change the pace of this. And he tried and he does, but it just didn't, it felt clunky and it felt like they were playing uphill. I just, this is a hard series to officiate.

Just give me a minute on this. Seacum had a great block. on McBride, they call it, they call the foul on it. And I'm like, a good God, that's ridiculous. The Biggs, I mean, Turner and Kat and Seaccom, especially Seaccom and Kat, they're aggressive offensive players with a nice touch. There were so many calls going against the Knicks in the second half.

Third quarter, I'm like, oh, this is, this is, they're going to blow a gasket here. And then I thought a couple one against the Pacers late. I think this is a hard series to officiate. New York's a good defensive team. Indiana is an underrated defensive team and the bigs move and they collide. And I don't know. As I watched this game about, and I'm not a guy that bangs on officials, but I was like, man,

there were a lot of calls going against the Knicks for a stretch in this game, I thought. No, absolutely. That's why I wasn't upset about the Siakam one. Like Siakam blocked Deuce McBride clean. That was a great defensive play. Should not have been a foul. but there were like three or four calls against against the Knicks in that fourth quarter where I was like, to the point you're making, what makes this series so hard to officiate is on the one hand,

you've got Brunson, who's one of the most gifted foul grifters in the NBA. And then on the other side, the Pacers just play so fast and there's so much running that you kind of have to put your body in the way. You have to. If you don't, they're just going to cut you to pieces. And so there's a lot of these like kind of bang, bang contact plays where a dude comes flying downhill or tries to turn the corner. on a drive and you try to position yourself in front and take the contact and they're getting called for fouls in a lot of those situations. And it is a very difficult series to officiate. But what causes those fouls, to your point, is the speed and the pace. And if there's one thing to credit the Knicks for in this fourth quarter, like you said, there was a six-minute

stretch there where you're like, why is Aaron Neesmith trying to play bully ball against Josh Hart and Ogen, Ogen-Nobie? Like, O'Ganobie's, you know, four inches taller than you and at least 30 pounds heavier. Like you're not going to go through his chest to get to the rim. And there was a little bit too much of like Siakum, ISO, a little too much of like Tyrese Halliburton dribbling out of ball screens instead of passing out of ball screens like he always does. I thought Indiana kind of lost their identity for a minute in that fourth quarter. By the way, like that's a credit to Carl Anthony Towns. I'm a big believer in this, Colin. I'm, I think basketball is more art than science. I think there is a lot of like psychological dynamics at play in any given moment.

And like when Luca rolls up into your building in the first quarter in a elimination game and scores 17 points and hits three logo threes, it just saps you of all your energy. Like even I thought Brunson and Kat both kind of were succumbing to that over the course of this game. Brunson was having a rough night. Kat was having a rough night. What happened in that fourth quarter was Kat through one hell of a punch and he's dunking on everybody and hitting step back threes. and you could tell Indiana was just shaken at that point. Yeah, I mean, there was a point in the first half when Indiana led by 20, and they got into this like six or eight transition run where it was like three fast breaks,

bang, bang, and I'm like, oh, the game's over. The series is over. I mean, I would have bet my 401k at that moment. I'm like, okay, the series is over. It's done. The body language Brunson didn't seem engaged that I'm like, okay, it's done. So, I mean, you got to give the Knicks credit. I think to your point, it's probably the series is now probably closer to what it should be.

So you go back to game one. The Knicks absolutely outplayed them. And going even into this game, I was with friends tonight in the first quarter, a little cookout at their house. We were watching the game. And it was like one of the people there was not a basketball fan. and I said, oh, this series has just come down to the last six minutes. I said, one team's great defensively. One's very good offensively.

There's about six really good players combined. I said it'll be close. It'll be a four-point game. I thought Indiana would win. But I also think one of the things that was good for the NBA tonight is that you're seeing a lot of road teams win playoff games. They've been a ton. I mean, Indiana, obviously. My entire life, even as an NBA fan, I always felt like the home team got the whistle.

and I just like seeing road teams win. I think it's just better for basketball and the road team wins. I mean, I think it's just funny now that the Knicks can't win at home, and the Pacers now are winning everywhere but home. And I think it's just good. It makes the series captivating. I'm interested to watch the Pacers come out in game four, because my take is they're going to try to push the pace again,

because they walked into that locker room, and they're like, we lost our way at home in a game that could have clinced the series. Like, they just lost their way. Credit the Knicks defense, but that was as bad as Indiana's looked offensively for a six to eight-minute stretch the entire series. Yeah, you know, the most interesting thing looking back at this is the Celtics series looks so weird in retrospect now with the Knicks having won that series and then looking bad for, you know, the majority of this series. because I'm with you. Like I think Indiana is, I think Indiana is going to come out in game four

and throw their best punch. And I think it's going to be a very difficult game for the Knicks to win. That like the game I point to is the Cavs game four. Cavs went into Indiana in game three and blew them out. And that's not a, that's not a, that's a 64 win talent laden roster that went into Indy and suffered one of the most humiliating blowouts that we've ever seen in the NBA when they were trailing 80 to 39 at the end

of the first half. So Indiana is going to come out and they're going to throw their best punt. What's fascinating to me is coming into this series, I mentioned to you on your show, that I thought the Pacers were better on offense and better on defense than the Knicks. And that was why I thought that they would win the series. But interestingly enough, this is a Knicks team that's kind of had mediocre results for the majority of this season. And they beat the Celtics. And what's fascinating to me now, as I look back on this all, is there's kind of a range of outcomes for all of these teams. And the Pacers are a team that pretty consistently hits their ceiling. They're not like what you saw tonight was very out of the out of character for them.

The Knicks, I've seen them a half dozen times each in this postseason look like a putrid defense and look like an awesome defense. Like at multiple different points in this postseason, they've kind of oscillated back and forth between those two ideas. They just have a wide range of outcomes. And so we've all known that the Knicks can have defensive stretches like, had in that fourth quarter tonight. They did it to Boston multiple times. They can fly around in rotation and contest shots and do all of that stuff. They just can't sustain it. And so ultimately, as you zoom out from the series, the Pacers are up to one and they are more likely to sustain their peak level of play moving forward. And it makes them a safer bet to win the series at this point.

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and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Okay, Western Conference, Game 3, pretty much unwatchable blowout. And, you know, there's a way Minnesota has to play to beat OKC, and they played it. They did a lot of it. Um, it, what's, what's funny is it's hard to find anybody that likes watching OKC play. You know, they're, they're kind of hovering defense. where they kind of, they swarm on you. I think you said it. It's almost collegiate looking the way they play defense. And then it's a lot of, you know, drawing fouls, SJE.

I don't think they're a fun watch. I just think they're really athletic and really deep. Do I, am I supposed to take anything beyond just a desperate well-coached team in Minnesota, amp crazy, and it was just a young team. Listen, really. feeling their oats and just got overwhelmed and just packed it in. I mean, it is anything more than that? I think there was something more in the sense that I think that Oklahoma City is a better team than Minnesota, but I also don't think they were the type of team

that should blow them out multiple times in a row the way they did in game one in game two. Chris Finch was running what I thought was an extremely foolish game plan through the first two games. The gist of it is, if I asked you what Shay Gildes was Alexander, Sanders strongest traits are as a basketball player. You'd say he's probably the best driver of the basketball in the league. And he's just like the best isolation player in the league. He was. Like of all isolation players who attempted at least 300 shots,

he was number one by a mile this year. And so what Chris Finch was doing was picking up Shea at half court and letting him play one-on-one, staying glued home to shooters. And it was just like gift-wrapping Shea the perfect environment for him to thrive on. and it was hilarious, juxtaposed with a Denver series where we saw the exact opposite game plan with lesser defensive personnel have a great deal of success. Now, they won by 40 because, yes, there was an urgency gap and they shot a lot better and there were a lot, like Anthony Edwards was hitting shots over triple teams in the second half.

Like, yeah, there was, that was what it caused it to manifest in a destructive blowout. But right away to start that game, one of the reasons why they were able to quickly assert control and hold Oklahoma City, I think they held them. to 15 points in the first quarter. The reason why was they immediately dropped back to Denver's game plan. They had, they had Jaden meet Shea inside the three point line. Because again, if you ball pressure a player, it's the easiest time to drive past them because you're being forward aggressive as a defender.

So of course, Shea's going to go right around. He's literally the best. He drove to the basket more than 200 times more than the second best driver in the league this year, Colin. That's like almost four times a game. He's far and away the best. best driver. You can't pick him up that far. He's going to go right around you. Jaden sat back, and then they started packing the paint off of shooters. And so as a result, it looked like the

Denver game, and all of a sudden it turned into Oklahoma City's role players needing to knock down threes, and Shea having to make tougher decisions in the lane about whether or not he wanted to shoot over some double and triple teams, where he can have some shortcomings. Because if I asked you, what Shay's biggest weaknesses are, it's probably his three. point shooting and his ability to process in traffic in the lane. Now, he's still pretty good at those things, but they're not his strengths. And in the end of the first half, he was one for four from three. He had four turnovers. He finished the game, I think, four for 15 from the field. Colin, only eight times all season did Shea shoot below 40% from the field. He is one of the most consistently

efficient scores in basketball. They held him to 31% in that game. So there definitely was a better game plan. And so as a result, I think game four will be a closer, more tightly contested game because they're running the right game plan for this. And I think one of the vulnerabilities of OKC is young teams, role players are generally not as good on the road in the playoffs. And that's exactly what you saw. Like we've talked about this before. Role players at home are just different players. They need that confidence. They need the swagger of the crowd. Steph Curry doesn't. And doesn't. And I think when you force Oklahoma City and you just say, okay, okay, young guys. guys, hit your shots on the road, loud crowd. It's hard. There's a history. It's like really,

really hard. And I also think, and I also think when you're playing a team like OKC, so I wonder about sometimes OKC is so good defensively and so swarming and so frenetic. I do wonder if Minnesota players tend to spend so much of their on-court time, thinking about that. So much of playing OKC is deciphering their defense and figuring out, you have to really be, you have to be intentional when you play them defensively because they can trap you, they can make you look bad fast.

And so I think sometimes when you play OKC, they don't play like a lot of other teams. Nobody quite plays like them. And I think they can get into your headspace. And it's why, and then you go on the road. And now they lead by six and SGA is getting the whistle. I do feel something, and I don't know what the numbers say, but I do feel like OKC is, like Indiana, I get the same team.

Same team. I got enough veterans. I feel with Oklahoma City, they're a vulnerable road team. I've got a shot. You know, Denver, they didn't look quite the same at Denver. Now maybe it's altitude. Now maybe I'm wrong on this. The splits don't say that.

But I do feel like a OKC is a vulnerable team on. the road that you can win your home games against them. They're three and three, Colin, and their defense, their offense falls all the way down to a 104 offensive rating. That's brutally bad. And their defense slides all the way up to 112, which is pretty bad for them. So, I mean, what you're on to is what's really been happening with them. Okay, okay.

They're a different offense on the road. They don't feel like the same team. And that doesn't surprise us because they're young. And they play with huge energy at home. but when I watch them on the road at Denver a couple times, I'm like, it just doesn't feel the same. It's a different. I honestly feel of all the teams left, I get the exact same team with Indiana, except for six minutes tonight. I feel like I get this exact same pacer squad home and away.

They want to run if they can't. You know, it just, I just, OKC. Of all the four teams left, I feel like I get a different OKC team home and away. To your point about adjusting to OKC's defense. too. Like I thought Aunt and Julius did a poor job in the first two games of attacking their defense. Like I call in like, because Oklahoma City's defense, I don't know if you like just, just stare at any possession. Shea's ignoring whoever he's guarding just sitting in the basket. They've got three, four, sometimes five guys in the paint on like every single drive. They're

daring Minnesota to take and make corner threes in this series. And in like, when after game one, when Aunt was like, I vowed to be more aggressive, I'm like, that's not the answer. They're like, you're going to just drive into the teeth of the defense and you're going to take bad shots. And by the way, in the first half of game two, you took 18 shots and had 16 points to show for it. What was kind of fascinating about the flow of this series is to your point, you start to get more comfortable as you adjust. Aunt and Julius were awesome in game three, especially early at making those corner kicks and they were finally knocking down those corner threes. They have had three games worth of experience against Oklahoma City's base defensive scheme. and they're starting to figure it out a little bit.

Oklahoma City saw that bad game plan for two games, and then Finch throws the appropriate game plan in game three, and they looked like completely shell-shocked by it. I mean, Colin, I don't know if you saw it in game one, Oklahoma City only took like 23s. And the reason why is because they were staying glued off the ball and letting Shea play one-on-one. It's such a fundamentally different defensive game plan

that Minnesota is rocking from this point forward. Now, to be clear, in game four, by the way, via Draft Kings, all of our odds are from Draft Kings. Oklahoma City is a three-point favorite in game four. That feels right to me. I think it's going to be a close game. They're going to bring an intense defensive effort right away out the gates that's going to test Aunt Julius's decision-making again. And then you're going to see Oklahoma City because they have seen this defense before with Denver.

You're going to see them kind of come into the game prepared for that game plan. That said, and this is the one thing I'd say, like I think Minnesota has a much better chance of beating Oklahoma City from this point forward than the Knicks do with the Pacers. Because what Minnesota can bring to the table is Denver caused problems for OKC with some weak defensive personnel. Minnesota's got a bunch of really good defenders out there. And so if they properly execute this game plan, they could potentially do some real damage. And as long as they ride that momentum going forward in the series, there's also a little bit

of like an ant straight up can be unguardable. times with some of the shots that he can make. And like, he was just better than Shea in game three. And if he can maintain that, that would be the other thing that could swing things back towards Minnesota. You know, it was funny, segue back to the Knicks Pacers. And I was, I was watching the Pacers when they took that 20 point first half lead. And they were just transition basketball at its best.

Just, I mean, they score fast. And I was thinking, don't fall for it. Colin, don't fall for it. Because a couple years ago, Denver won the title. And I'm like, oh, they're going to reel off like three. And then Bruce Brown left and then KCP. And they didn't, I mean, they didn't have a great bench to begin with. And now it's a bad bench.

And they become, you know, Jamal Murray gets hurt. And I've never been a huge Michael Porter fan. I've always been, I always think Aaron Gordon's underrated Porter to me. Just I think he's an odd fit and a bit overpaid. And then all of a sudden you look up and Denver just looks good. And I watched Indiana. And I said, and I thought to myself, God, I love watching them play. But as I watch all of these teams, even Oklahoma City, and we've just stated it, they're,

they're the one team that you get a different version on the road. They're not nearly as good as they are at home, is that I feel like whoever wins this year will not win the following year. And I, first of all, there's going to be a Janus move. their KD could go to the Knicks. They could get another basket. You know, if they moved off Carl Anthony Towns and his flakiness and just said, we're going to go get Durant. We'll let Carl go.

We'll keep Robinson. He is what he is, but we'll have Durant in the game late so we can live with them. I feel like the Pacers feel a little bit like the Nuggets. I'm falling in love. Like I fell in love with Yokic and Gordon. I'm like, God, I love this team. But it wasn't as sustainable. It was very Yokich dominant.

And Murray, you know, he's just one of those players that I like a lot I don't love. And I kind of feel like with Indiana, I'm falling for it. And I'm doing this because it's like confirmation bias. I love watching them play. And so I'm talking myself into Indiana's great. But then I watch them and I think to myself, no, they're not great. What they have is a remarkable player in Halliburton. And what Denver had is a remarkable player in Yokic.

Minnesota has is a remarkable player and aunt. And Brunson's one of the great small closers in the game is, I think this is what the NBA is going to be is that everybody's going to have a great player and a very good two. But the days of having three guys that you can depend on, I just think, Jason, I think it's over. I just don't think that multiple aprons, I don't think they allow it. And so those teams are just going to eventually get beat. They'll come in as a favorite.

They'll have an injury. They'll lose a bench guy. And it's just funny watching Indiana tonight. I'm like, oh boy, this team, this team. I thought, wait, put the brakes on. Jesus, they can't even get to the Knicks tonight. If I took these four teams, all things considered. And I said one of them will win multiple titles.

Are you set on OKC? Yeah, OKC is the only team that could theoretically keep this kind of talent accumulated for long enough. Like Indiana is already going to face some tough questions coming up. like, okay, Miles Turner is kind of very important to the way we play offense. Are we going to pay? Because Miles, guess what? Colin, starting center money in the NBA now is like 30 million a year.

Like, that's like the baseline. Like, we're starting the discussion at 30 million a year. That's what Isaiah Hartenstein got. And if I'm Miles Harden, Miles Turner's agent, I'm going to him like 30's the basement. Like, so are you going to, you, how are you going to continue to build around Nie Smith, who by the, by the way, Neesmith is a, a dude who just stole you a playoff game who's averaging 15 points game in this playoff run is your primary point of attack defender is shooting 45% from three.

That's a $25 million player. Like Halliburton's a super max player. Nemhard, you could argue, is a $20 million player. Siakum is a $40 million player. Like it just gets really difficult to maintain the payrolls in these in these situations. The thing with Oklahoma City is they're going to run into that problem in a couple of years. They can theoretically win this year, run it back, win again, run it back. but it will be a shorter window relative to previous entities like this

because of the fact that eventually they're going to have to pay J. Dubb. Kason Wallace is looking a lot like a $25 million player to me, right? Like, Ted Holmgren's a $40 million player. J. Dub's going to be a $40 million. But like they're all just so good that inevitably you're going to have to pay all these dudes and it's just going to become impossible to maintain the roster. Now there's a second conversation to have as it pertains to whether or not the league should pivot from this structure because it penalizes smartly run NBA teams.

But yeah, on the other three teams, Indiana, New York, Minnesota, there's no chance to like sustain success because of just how expensive it is to have, like, you talk about a playoff rotation. You want six guys you can definitely trust and probably a seventh that you can kind of trust. And it's like a playoff guy you can trust is bare minimum 20 million. in the open market. So like it's just very difficult to find the means with which to maintain this. And Oklahoma City will have draft picks. They can supplement it with draft picks, but a draft pick isn't going to be able to impact of winning at a playoff level right away. And you can try trading them, but it's just going to bring back expensive contracts. It's just kind of the reality

of the situation. I will say with the Knicks calling, I think there's a lot of interesting Kevin Durant potential destinations. I think the Knicks are one. I also kind of think the Pacers are one of the reasons why I like the Pacers is like I don't think the Pacers have much of a chance at all to beat Oklahoma City. I think it's a horrible matchup for them. Oklahoma City has six lightning fast guards that can chase all their guards around and they can switch everything and they also have her in protection and they have all the offensive talent to be able to score on them. I worry about the Pacer's ability to get a bucket against a team that can keep them in front. And they're a team. Like if I had, if I just had a better version of Siakum, I all of a sudden view them as a more substantial title threat. And so like they're a team that I could see like, okay, we're a little older. Miles Turner's kind of older. We need to make some sort of win now move to capitalize on this before it gets too expensive. I could see KD being that guy for them as well. There's a bunch of teams where KD could immediately raise their ceiling.

Hey, it's us to Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? Huge news. We've created our own podcast. called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special.

So how did we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember. going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast where people could call in and say, Hey Jonas, and then I wrote down on my

little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite, unhumored me with Robert Smygel and Friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smygle

and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlight are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo. Every episode, we're cutting through the noise, breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves, their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear.

The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer-beaters to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context and ask the questions everybody wants answered. SportsSlice brings you closer to the action with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to SportsSlice on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slices Life 12 in the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen kingdom on earth.

He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian business business, man catapults Jacob into an extraordinary world. He doesn't look back. Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets, meeting the president of Turkey. I'm Michelle McPhee, and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracies I've ever come across. When Jacob met Levant this plant to a billion dollar fraud.

But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation in American history. You need to tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Jacob told Levan, you're ruining my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, I want to bring this up. We can close on this because I saw this today.

It's fascinating. So a university professor in finance looked up the value of Caitlin Clark for the WNBA. This is insane. So this year, last season in the WNBA, Caitlin Clark was 26 and a half percent of all economic activity as a rookie on the worst team in the league when she entered it.

So now she has an eight year, $128 million deal with Nike. So, you know, she's going to eat. Merchandise in the league went up off a rookie from a Midwest-based school on the worst team in the league, 234%. But here was the one that struck me. So before she got there, the Indiana fever, the valuation of the franchise was $90 million. Remember, they play a short season. It's not like the NBA where it lasts like six months.

After playing, what, 40 games, the valuation of that team now is $340 million. She is almost, she has quadruple the value. And I was talking, I was with a group of friends tonight at dinner. And people that didn't know, the WNBA were like asking, well, why? Like, what does she do? And we said, well, she makes passes and takes shots that nobody else. and the sport does. So she's a bit of a,

it's like when Tiger Woods came on the tour. Like he drove it further. He's long putting was better. He looked like a football player and the red shirts. Like he just was different than every other golfer you grew up with. And people like unique and different. Here, my question to you is there's still no other,

like somebody said at the party, well, there'll be another Caitlin Clark. And I'm like, well, there's not another step curry. Like there's guys that can shoot threes. I don't think it's a game you duplicate. And listen, let's just be honest. There are more great male athletes in the world than female athletes. There is no second Steph Curry.

There is no other player that plays like that. My take is she could be a billion dollar athlete. Are you surprised by it? Like when I see these numbers, I'm like, oh, this is Tiger and the Tour. This doesn't even Jordan. This is totally different. well i think when you look at basketball there are two real kind of like ultimate show type of athletes that you see meaning like must see television and it's the supreme vertical athlete

which think like young lebron or kind of like anthonyie edwards domineke was for a while yeah yeah like the guy that does stuff in the air that is unlike anything you see anywhere else and then the second piece of it is just unbelievable shot making those are the two things those are the two things that like really bring eyes to television to take it a step further there are two types of basketball players that i think are far and away the most winning impact in the current game of basketball it's the big strong playmaker think lebron lucca yokech and it's the indomitable shooter, which there's really only been Steph. I think those two types of players are the players that give you the best chances to win basketball games in the modern world.

Now, what makes it fascinating to me, because that's what Caitlin Clark is. She's a different type of player and she can do a lot of different types of things, but she's essentially bringing a Steph Curry-like basketball impact to the WMBA. It's really this simple. if you can shoot the way that she shoots or the way step shoots and you can perpetually be in motion running around inevitably there is an overreaction to your shooting ability and we see this all the time with katelyn just like you're you're going to see you're going to see uh alia boston get non-stop easy buckets in the mid range or rolling to the basket because

every time she sets a screen for katelyn her defender is stepping up to guard katelyn because as she comes off of that screen. If you're not there, she's going to shoot it and she's going to make it. And so there's a reaction that inverts spacing and brings a four on three because you bring multiple defenders away from the rim, there's a four on three with a vacated paint. And because of that, there's a lot of easy opportunities to score there. Like that's the thing with Steph Curry. Like, Steph Curry is not the same shot maker that he was four years ago in 2021. But just the simple threat of him running around gives the warriors a chance to score. And that's the thing. Like, Caitlin hasn't even really started hitting shots yet this year, the way that she's capable of,

but everyone knows she can and they guard her in that fashion. And so to me, it's kind of like a proof of concept in that if you can shoot and you can run around the way that Steph does and you can strike fear into a defense in that way, the trickle-down effects with the way that defenses guard you just make everything so much easier for her. And like, you could argue she's already. the best offensive engine in the WMBA. And she's literally a second year player. And like, and she still has so much room to improve. Like she still struggles with ball pressure.

She still turns the, she turned the ball over, uh, too much against the Liberty the other night. She, uh, still has a little bit of an issue where she kind of crossfires across her face, which makes it so she can only shoot going left. She needs to build it out so that she can shoot running to her right as well. But like, judging by her psycho competitive attitude, she's probably going to figure that stuff out in the next year or two. And then she'll be the best.

in the league. And so, like, to me, it's just she fits the mold of one of the most impactful types of basketball players you can be today, which is the, the deadly movement shooter. If you're a deadly movement shooter, it just opens up so many things for an offense. And, and honestly, I just think, I think she's must-see television, Colin. I've watched all four of her games. And I'm in my busy season. Like, you'd think I'd be taking a break. My wife said to me the other day, she's like, you're watching more basketball. I'm like, it's Caitlin Clark. We're, we're watching more basketball. Come over here. Let's watch this. Like, she's incredible. And she's not getting, she doesn't always get the consistent great star whistle. She, I mean, there's, I think they're still

kind of figuring out how to officiate her. Right. Like, like when you're, when, you know, I, I've said this for years when I covered Shaq and to Shaq, Shaq got foul more than anybody I've ever seen. I mean, it was insane. You just, people bounced off Shaq. Yokish feel, Yokish complains constantly. Like, people are bouncing off me. She doesn't quite. get as favorable a whistle as you think. So I think. Neither does Steph, too. That's the funny part. Well, and I think I will give the WNBA credit. They just didn't understand the tsunami ever popularity. Like they didn't get the schedule. And you don't know what you don't know. They've done a much better job to, I mean, all her games are on television. Every time I turn on a WA, every time I see a promotion for the WNBA, it's Caitlin Clark.

So they're, but I do think there's a process on, you know, you're an official. You don't want to give her too favorable a whistle because the players in the league all resent her to some degree. She's getting all this attention. And I don't, and I will say this. I've defended the WNBA with this. Baseball and the WNBA feel ignored. The NFL and the NBA and college football, they get a lot of press. And baseball always feels like, hey, we're America's pastime.

So they're very insular, sometimes very. provincial and the WNBA similarly. You don't pay attention to us. So there's part of it like I get. Like they sort of resent this one player. Nobody talks WNBA. They do and it's all her. You know, I remember when Tiger was 18, 19, 20 years old coming on to the tour,

there were a lot of people in golf that were like, could you guys show, could you talk in your sports cast about anybody other than Tiger Woods? So she's not, Bryce Harper came into baseball. He fought with an own teammate in the dugout because it was like, oh, everybody wants to talk to. So I do defend the WNBA is that I get, if nobody paid attention to you for 26 years. And now they do, and they feign interest in the rest of the league. What we all care about is Caitlin. So the animosity built up by players, I give it a little bit of a pass. You know, I think that people are spending too much time on race. It is what it is. There's a million platforms, a million opinions.

but I don't know my take is they're still in the adjustment period with Caitlin how to market how to promote how to officiate how to defend and it's just fluid that's what it feels like to me I think that like when I see the complaining like I saw some players complain and some some members of the media complained that she was on TV so much and let's just take us out take fairness and just put it to the side for a minute like even with Nike and giving Caitlin a shoot like set that aside for a minute and just focus on her being on television. Okay. Her being on television brought my eyes to it. I didn't watch the WMBA. I have grown to really enjoy watching WMBA basketball, even when she's not on.

And they're like, Nefisa Collier became one of my favorite basketball players watching her in the finals run last year. And what brought me to the television was Caitlin. So like, let's say that the league came out and they're like, every Caitlin Clark games on national television, and like that's just what we're going to do deal with it. That would be genius because the best way you can market

the other WMBA players is to have them play against Caitlin Clark because we'll all be watching. Okay, well, no one's covering the rest of the league. Okay, but if you put Caitlin on television and you get more people to watch, it will create more WMBA fans and we live in the most, Colin, I started making NBA content out of my guest bedroom, okay? You create a bunch of WMBA fans, passionate members of the media, will originate from that mass and will cover the league better.

And overall, the league will gain in popularity and gain an impact. And it will become a momentous thing that carries forward and actually does shine a big flashlight on the rest of the WMBA. Caitlin Clark is the vehicle with which to microwave that, to accelerate it and to move it into a fast track towards what could be a bright future for the WMBA. It's great basketball. It's genuinely great basketball. she's the best vehicle with which to elevate the sport.

I think anything they can do to put her on TV and promote her is the best thing they could do for the sport. Yeah, it's Connor McGregor UFC. You know, you knew it existed. You'd seen fights. You started buying pay-per-view cards and sitting through two and a half hours to get to his fight. And then all of a sudden you found yourself a year later hooked on two other fighters

because Dana White would put the second most popular fighter in the undercards. And so all of a sudden, it's John Jones into Connor McGregor. And then they, so it's just basic marketing. And I've said before, I do think the WNBA women's basketball, and I've said this years ago on FS1, probably five years ago, the sport was getting better. The women were, you know, several generations of women were encouraged to play basketball and to be athletes and nutritionists came into the sport and better trainers. There was money in the league.

So they had better training. And the players were getting better. But it takes this. Listen, it took Magic and Bird in the NBA to take a league. There were some financial problems. So it's not like a gender issue. It's a, I mean, I think Connor McGregor's erosion as a fighter has hurt UFC. It doesn't feel as urgent.

And that's already established. And so, and we all know that Michael Jordan left. Once Magic Bird and Michael had driven the league up, Michael left. The ratings drop 50%. So this stuff outside of the NFL, it's all cyclical. It's all market-based. It's all star-based. And it's just the WNBA, you know, was waiting for its first tiger.

And golf's probably had four in my life. You know, Jack Nicholson, Arnold Palmer, Tiger. I think Rory's got a little bit of it, Phil Mickelson. So the history of golf, you know, if modern history, it's like five guys that have done it. So there's no reason to be defensive about it. It just, it's all these leagues, they all eventually, I mean, look at boxing. Ali took it from whatever it was to the next level.

Then there were Sugar Ray Leonard and Hagler. But when Larry Holmes arrived, nobody wanted to watch Larry Holmes. It took an old George Foreman and selling a grill that you bake chicken on or cooked chicken on. I mean, literally to get the casual back into boxing was George Foreman's second to her. So this is the way sports works outside of football. The cyclical thing is so fascinating because that's literally what the NBA is about to go through. LeBron and Steph won eight titles in 11 years and now there's not really a big name yet. Now you could argue that the parody might prevent the rise of a star and that's a separate conversation for another day.

But it is really fascinating. We're in one of those cycles right now with the NBA. The old guard's going out and there's a new guard coming up. But Colin, I sincerely appreciate you give it us your time tonight. This has been a super fun playoff run. I'm sure we'll be talking in about a week or so. Again, everyone, thank you guys so much for supporting the show. No playback tonight.

Just a heads up. We'll be back with that tomorrow night. And then I'll be live on YouTube after the final buzzer of Game 4 of what should be an incredible Western Conference Finals game tomorrow night. I will see you guys then. What's up, guys? As always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us.

But if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it. The volume. Hey guys, it's us The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what?

We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it.

But, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel,

help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, it's Edwin Castro, also known as Castro 1021. And I'm Kunky, his best friend, and business manager.

And we've got a new show called The 1021 podcast. I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers. We also love sports. And with the World Cup right around the corner, we'll be breaking down the biggest storylines ahead of the big tournament here in the USA. Listen to the 1021 podcast on the IHeart Radio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Joey Dardano, and on my new podcast, Hope From a Hypocrite,

I'll be changing lives, helping people in need with thoughtful solutions. Sike, I'm a comedian. I'm not qualified to give good advice. Join me and my comedian friends as we riff, rant, recommend some of the most legally dubious advice known to me. This is Help from a Hypocrite, the worst advice from the dumbest people you know. Listen to Help from Hippocrite Wednesdays on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.