The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - LIVE: Knicks Eliminate Celtics In 6!

Episode Date: May 17, 2025

Jason reacts live to the New York Knicks beating the Boston Celtics in Game 6 to advance to the Eastern Conference Finals against the Indiana Pacers. Jalen Brunson, Mikal Bridges, OG Anunoby, Josh Hart, and Karl-Anthony Towns were all excellent and Jaylen Brown / Derrick White simply did not have enough after Jayson Tatum's injury.   #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the ice. Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Winning on Clay is an art. The rallies are relentless. And at the French Open, only the toughest survive. I'd know. I competed there for decades. Join me, Renee Stubbs, on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast for no-nonsense breakdowns of the biggest matches, the toughest players, and the moments that define Roland Garris. She can win.

She's an outsider to win the French fame. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lina Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any service. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal, but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The volume. The NBA 82 game grind is done.

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tonight as a tale of two very different New York Knicks teams and a tale of two very different Boston Celtics teams from game five to game six. And the Knicks are going to blow them out. We're actually starting a little bit early here. There's still four minutes left over there at MSG. But tonight we're going to break down very briefly the dynamic that took place in this game. But I want to focus a little bit looking forward towards the Pacers matchup for the Knicks. We won't have our series preview until probably Sunday morning. I'm going to be working on that tomorrow, but we'll talk a little bit about my initial impressions going into that series. Then after that, we'll talk about the Celtics and what they're looking at heading into

this offseason. Jackson, who produces this show, is a Celtics fan, and he has put some thought into some specific targets for the Celtics this summer. And I have not seen the list yet, so we're going to work through that together and just kind of have some fun, just kind of game planning a potential Celtics offseason. Then at the tail end of the show, we'll take five, ten minutes of mailbag questions from the chat. So make sure you guys get your questions into the chat. When we finish here on YouTube, we're going to migrate over to Playback. Again, that's Playback.com.tv slash Hoops tonight. We take callers there every night. It is so much fun. We've been really enjoying building out that part of the show because it's just informal and we talk shit. We have fun. We watch

film. It's just a bunch of basketball fans hanging out and having a good time. So meet us over at playback.com.tv slash Hoops Tonight when we finish up here on YouTube. You guys are the drill before we get started, subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel, so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter at underscore Jason LT so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast fee wherever you get your podcast under Hoops Tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave a rating and a review on that front. Jackson's doing great work on our social media feeds, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Make sure you guys follow us there.

And then like I mentioned earlier, keep dropping mailbag questions into the chat so that we can get to him at the tail end of the show. And then again, when we finish here, playback.tv. All right, let's talk some basketball. So I thought the abundantly clear thing that happened right out the gates in this game was just a level of defensive intensity from the Knicks. We have another gentleman named Shane who's been working with us on the show over the course of this off season, Big Knicks fan. And he was talking before we got on the stream about how it's just you never know what you're going to get with the Knicks. And it's funny because another former person who's worked on this show, Josh Rodriguez, a big Knicks fan himself.

He messaged me. We were talking about it on Twitter, actually, after they got rid of the Pistons. And he was just talking about how Nick's fans have just been like kind of sick of this team for that type of inconsistent personality that they have. And it's just, it's very simple. Like I'm watching game five and there's very little in the way of intense physical pressure on the perimeter. There's a whole lot of just like not paying attention or communicating in transition as they repeatedly left Derek white wide open over and over and over again. And Josh Hart is talking in the post game presser about like this kind of multiple personality

type of issue that the Knicks have and he's just like, I don't know what causes it, but it just kind of is who they are at this point. And that is something that we'll have to keep an eye on when it comes to the Pacers series, because the Pacers are certainly a team that does not have multiple personalities. They play the same way, all the damn time. And the second you let go of the rope, they can take control of the situation. And that's going to be a theme as we head into that series. But tonight, I thought the Knicks brought the necessary energy on the defensive end of the floor. O.G. and Nobie, I thought, set the tone right from the start with his ball pressure and physicality on Jalen Brown.

Jailen Brown had a very rough game relative to what he looked like in game five. We talked about how he didn't settle for a single pull-up jump shot in game five until halfway through the second quarter. He was taking some really tough contested ones early and often in this game. There was a way less of an intentional effort to attack Jalen Brunson, although to Jalen Brunson's credit, they started to go at him a lot in the early third quarter stretch, and he just did a great job.

he just held his ground and battled. As we zoom out from the series, I thought Brunson in particular was pretty great defensively outside of game five. And there were a lot of opportunities for Boston to try to attack Brunson, especially in game one in game two, and he just held up really well.

But OG got right up in Jalen Brown's grill right away and made him uncomfortable. The Celtics did get some easy ones in the first half that didn't go in. And if the few easy ones you get, don't go in. And there's a lot of, pressure and good defense on these other possessions. It's just really difficult to counter that. And then the Knicks were playing with a type of desperation. You would tell the Knicks knew.

They're like, we have to go back to the TD Garden. This could get ugly for us. And so the Knicks kind of treated it like a must win and they brought the necessary energy and they threw a hell of a punch. And the Celtics just didn't really have much of a chance, not with the way that they were shooting the ball tonight. Did not score over 20 points in any quarter until the fourth quarter tonight. So impressive win for the Knicks. Now, let's split this up here. We're going to talk about looking forward to the Pacers matchup first, and then we'll talk about the Celtics moving forward with their future. So specifically with the Pacers matchup, I'm going to say this, the same way that I've been saying it with some other series around when we've discussed the reality of going

matchup to matchup. As we've now seen two of the three 60 win teams in the NBA this year lose, and as Oklahoma City is at risk of potentially losing on Sunday, although we did get a report today that Aaron Gordon, there was that weird play where J. Dub dove into his legs. And I thought he was just kind of playing up the injury to try to get, you know, a flagrant foul or something like that or a review. But it looks like Aaron Gordon might have some sort of hamstring issue, which is very scary for a Nuggets team that I would argue Aaron Gordon's been their

second best player in this postseason run. And so that obviously is a devastating long. there, but there's a chance that we could end up losing all 60 win teams before we even get out of the second round. And part of the reason for that is because more and more as the game has changed, there are just so many different ways to play and so many different types of teams and so many different types of stars. Even if you just look at the remaining four stars that will be leading these groups, let's say if Yokic advances or Shea advances, right? I've got Tyrese Halliburton, who's like some weird like Steve Nash mixed with a better athlete type of hybrid modern spread pick and roll like keep the ball moving type of ball handler.

Then I've got Jalen Brunson who's like this small, shifty, like incredibly gifted half court surgical score slash shot maker. Then I go out to the west and it's like I get Anthony Edwards who's like the modern version of Michael Jordan just this huge apex athlete two guard. that can shoot the shit out of the basketball. And then out of the other series, we're either going to get like the modern day James Hardin, this high volume score that is incredibly gifted at getting to the foul line, but has another layer of versatility in terms of his mid-range shot making that even James Hardin didn't have.

Or the best player in the world, Nicola Yokic, who's like this big doughy center who inverts your spacing and makes just about every damn shot he takes and is probably the best passer in the game. And as you kind of zoom out and look at that, that's just these four or five remaining teams. If I went down the list for all 16 teams or all 20, if you included the play in teams,

there's just so many different kinds of stars and so many different kinds of role players and schemes on defense and on offense. We've seen more zone, I feel like, in this postseason than in any postseason that I can remember as so many teams have been working on mixing up coverages and different kinds of zone and entire halves where a team will run 20, 25 possessions of zone. Like, this is a modern NBA

where every series is different and arguably within the actual series themselves, every game is different. And so it is no longer about which team won more games or who had the best net rating. It's strictly about what do you have in your toolbox to manage the shifting flow of each series. So for instance, the Celtics, they move the ball, especially when they get into their matchup attacking and you either leave a opening in your coverage, or if you, like in game five, just concede a lot of like size mismatches

that they can bully right to the front of the rim, but they don't come close to the pace and ball and player movement that Indiana brings to the table. So similarly to what we saw with Minnesota where like legitimately took them a lot longer than you would have expected put away a Golden State Warriors team without Steph. And I mean, obviously they won the series in five games, but within those games, it's like they lose game one.

Game two, they blow them out. But game three, they're like trailing in the fourth quarter. Game four, it's the Warriors, I think, had a lead in the mid third quarter. Like, it took, they didn't dominate that team despite the massive talent advantage because of the fact that there were some realities to the way that Golden State just played a very different kind of basketball than the Lakers did. And it just took them a while to adjust to it. And so with the Pacers, there are these obvious differences.

Switching like you did against Boston, that stagnated Boston, especially in game four. and especially down the stretch of game one and game two. No matter what you do to Indiana, they are not going to stagnate. They are going to attack with ball and player movement. And if you do everything right, then yeah, they'll go hunting a mismatch. But one, they're going to try to get something easy

by getting you to make a mistake botching a switch or leaving an opening otherwise not there. And two, unlike Boston, Boston will hunt mismatches, but they can get away from it. That's been the story with Boston for years, even going back to before they won the title. They have had a tendency to have extended stretches where they play a certain way and have a great deal of success. And then they go brain dead for like 12 minutes of real time where they just take a bunch of bad shots and fail to go back to the thing that worked. Indiana's pretty relentless about hunting those mismatches if you switch appropriately and avoid the openings that naturally occur in their offense.

they will throw it to see acum or miles turner against the size mismatch over and over and over again if you end up switching if you end up containing the ball they have a process offensively that is relentless from the start they pick you up full court they try to rush you into poor offense they push in transition like crazy tyrese is one of the best kick ahead passers in the NBA right now they're going to get you in the blender and if you survive the blender they're going to hunt a mismatch this is a very very different type of series than what this Celtic series is. And it's a much better version of Tyrese Halliborne. Tyrese Halliburton is playing at a substantially higher level than he was playing for the Knicks series last year. His matchup specifically with Carl Anthony Towns in space, whether it be in pick and roll coverages like a high drop or a hedge or it be in a switch, that's going to be a key factor in the series. Tyrese Halliburton attacking Carl Anthony Towns in space. It's going to be a a challenge. I expect to see a lot of Pascal Seaccom and Miles Turner in post-up mismatches against Jalen Brunson as they work through, you know, maybe a Nemhard, a ball screen with

Nemhard or Neesmith, and they get a switch and they're just going to throw it down there. There's a great deal of like trusting of simple closeout reads. Like the Celtics, when they have Tatum dancing at the top of the key and two guys are digging down into the driving lanes, the Celtics are less willing to just take that like simple swing pass. The Pacers make that shit relentlessly. They make it like every time. You sink off of a man for whatever reason. Tyrese will hit you every single time.

And so it's just going to be a very different type of challenge. And I think that bodes well for Indiana, especially early in the series. And so with the Knicks having home court advantage, I think it's going to be really interesting to see if they can hold up in those first two games. Because when you play a very different team and they roll up into your arena, and they're playing great basketball and they throw you in the blender. You make a few too many mistakes in game one.

Suddenly, even though you can solve that problem, you end up losing home court advantage in the process. And so I think that's going to be the first thing I'm watching early in the series is just how quickly the Knicks adjust defensively to what will be a very different challenge. Against the Celtics, it was about switching and containing and the individual defense in game one and game two of Brunson on Tatum and Brown, and in game four of Carl Anthony Towns on Jason Tatum in space. This series is going to be less of that and more of the attentiveness.

We saw the job that the Knicks did in transition defense in game five against Boston. If they bring that type of effort, the Pacers will beat the shit out of them. And so again, like we talked earlier, this is going to be much more of a mental challenge for the Knicks than it is a physical challenge. I'm very, very excited for it. On the other end of the floor, we saw some stuff last year, right? Brunson had a great deal of success against Nemhard, not so much against Neesmith. We'll see if R. Carlisle ends up making that kind of move. But here's the thing. You end up putting a Nemhard on a McHale Bridges.

You're now conceding a lot of size in that matchup, where McHale Bridges has been a very gifted over-the-top shooter in the mid-range. And so it's a very different type of team for the Pacers to match up with this time around. I've already started watching film on this series. Weirdly enough, the one game where everybody kind of played was in that early phase of the when the Pacers weren't playing very good basketball. But we do have three games worth of data. The Knicks were two and one in the regular season. I'm going to be watching a lot of that film tomorrow and working on that series preview.

It'll be up on our feeds, most likely Sunday morning, potentially Saturday afternoon. We'll let you guys know when it comes out. I'll put it out on Twitter and you guys can see it there, but we'll have an in-depth series preview at some point in the next day or two. blending vice's signature dynamic storytelling with the high-octane world of sports vice sports brings an exciting and diverse range of programming that goes beyond the game from action-packed live events to gripping behind the scenes documentaries to hard-hitting investigative pieces and in-depth profiles of athletes coaches teams vice sports captures the raw energy drama

and passion that makes sports truly unforgettable catch live events and other exclusive sports programs only this is now what is it? Go to Vice TV.com to find your cable channel. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, name? Huge news.

We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special.

So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what should be. we should call it. We were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down?

Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast.

But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel.

Help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Fankill. friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis, and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything

happening at Roland Garris, every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay. Jench who won? I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. Yeah, she's an outsider to win the French. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lena Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open.

Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games. Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's Superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year.

Within probably 10 days, I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 23, 24, 25. What, the sixth consecutive year that a champion failed to get out of the second round the following year. And this has been kind of something that I've been pushing back on

in terms of like every single time there's been any sort of success in this era from everybody, from anybody, including myself as a Lakers fan. There's this feeling like, we've reached the mountaintop. We figured it out and now we're here. And it's like the Lakers have some injuries the following year and their roster is completely blown up two years after that. You know, the Raptors, they lose Kauai Leonard.

They're completely different team after that. the bucks in 2021, Chris Middleton quickly declines physically. Janice ends up getting injured a couple of years after that. Next thing you know, the roster's too old for them to contend. Golden State, they catch this flash in a pan with Jordan Poole and Andrew Wiggins, which allows what was a limited roster to reach a level that could compete for a championship and you get an all-time great type of performance out of Steph Curry that allows you to hoist the trophy.

But then pretty quickly, Andrew Wiggins and Jordan Poole kind of regressed to the mean and suddenly it doesn't look like a championship roster anymore. 2023 with the Nuggets, they end up losing Bruce Brown, Justin Holiday, just a little bit of that depth that they used to have. KCP's out of the picture.

They're not as good at the point of attack. They have looked like a second-tier contender ever since then, although they do have a puncher's chance to win the title this year. You go to the following year with Boston now, same sort of thing. This is an all-time great team.

This is going to be the team that runs the league, and it's like, even if Jason Tatum didn't get hurt, they were probably about 55 to 60% likely to lose this series anyway. Why? A couple of guys got a little older, a little more banged up. Porzingis wasn't very good. Drew Holiday couldn't shoot the three as well as he used to. Jaylon Brown couldn't shoot the three as well as he used to. A couple guys just went cold at wrong times and suddenly you're out of here in the second round. It's just a reminder that

in this era, sustaining success is extremely difficult. So you can never get too high. You can never get too low. Those big picture roster decisions, you've got to be keyed in on the fact that if you think you're good enough, you're probably not and you probably need more firepower than it appears on the surface. And this has just been the latest example of that. And I don't know, like when we look back in NBA history, it's kind of crazy right on the heels of an era where we saw LeBron James win the Eastern Conference eight times in a row. We saw Steph Curry win the Western Conference four times in a row. We saw the Spurs win the Western Conference two times in a row.

And it just, there's so much more parity. There's so much more talent in the league. It is so much harder to sustain success. There are realities with the second apron and with the new CBA that makes it very difficult to accumulate talent and sustain talent in this league. I guarantee that like the next team that everyone's going to be focused on in terms of like, this team's going to win every year.

It's going to be the thunder until guess what? They have to pay everybody. And all of a sudden, sudden there's a certain amount of their talent that they're unable to retain and they end up dipping a little bit in talent and suddenly there's more pressure on Shay to be better in every facet of the game. And it's just really, really difficult to sustain success in the NBA these days. And I thought that what happened to Boston this year was a really interesting example of that. Jalen Brown, kind of an interesting example of the tale of two games. And it's just something to keep an eye as we head into next season with him. He was so good in terms of his

floor game in game five, the decision making, the deliberate and intent. intentional attacking of Jalen Brunson, the refusal to settle for bad jump shots. And just like all of that went out the window today in what was a much more uneven game from him outside of a few shots that he made early. And so just with that next year, that's going to be the key for him. If he's going to have any sort of sustained success as the leader of the Celtics next year, it's got to be that game to game floor presence of decision making, ruthless precision in terms of the types of advantages you're hunting in the half court. That's going to be the challenge for him next year. but it is going to be more or less a gap year in the sense that like what happened with Golden State

after Clay Thompson and Kevin Aranke got hurt. They used a year to accumulate assets to try to pivot and make a run in the future. And that's going to be the challenge for next season, is how do you weigh the reality of the talent you have on the roster and the fact that you probably could bring everybody back and be a three or four seat? You probably could. But is it worth it to do that and continue to see Porzinga Sage and continue to see Porzinga Sage and continue to see Horford age and continue to see Drew Holiday age and then have Tatum come back the following year and you're not good enough

and that's where they got the Celtics got to make some tough decisions about what they're going to do with the roster this summer and all throughout next season as they prepare for Tatum's inevitable return in the following year. Hey, it's us to Jonas Brothers and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? Huge news.

We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. First people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts. We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special.

So how did we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this.

We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast. could call in and say, hey Jonas, and then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, S&L's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis,

and I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs, and on the Renee Stubbs Tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on Clay. Jenchian win. I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay.

Listen, Lena Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now, and I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck. Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Imagine an Olympics where doping is not only legal but encouraged. It's the enhanced games.

Some call it grotesque. Others say it's unleashing human potential. Either way, the podcast's superhuman documented it all, embedded in the games and with the athletes for a full year. within probably 10 days I'd put on 10 pounds. I was having trouble stopping the muscle growth. Listen to Superhuman on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On that note, let's bring Jackson up.

We are going to Jackson put together a list of potential off-season targets. Jackson, I want you to just kind of put everybody in your frame of mind. My time event. I was thinking about the Celtic summer even before this game. I wasn't really expecting to win the series. at this point. And I have been trying to think about players to target and you don't, you can't pick players that are about to exit their prime because you like to your point, your next year is a gap year. You're two years away from Jason Tatum being back to anything close to what he,

he was this year, right? So you can't go too young, but you also have to find mostly contenders that are willing to ship players out because most of the players that you're trading, less than a three-team deal are only good, only valuable for contenders, right? It's not like you're trading, why would you trade a young guy in the first place? So I was trying to find teams that are fringe contenders that definitely feel like they need to make a move if they're going to go to the actual contenders, but aren't, you know, but aren't too good where they're not going to make big changes to their core. So I have three different categories worth of players, some like realistic possible options.

Some like, are these, these teams are quite good, but are they going to trade these guys? And some, these teams are in complete limbo. I can't imagine they trade players this good, but they're in limbo. So maybe they do. To start with, my number one target is Derek lively. I feel like Drew Holiday for Derek lively in some, you know, with whatever ancillary pieces that requires is close to perfect, considering the Mavericks have, I mean, they have Clay Thompson, I guess,

but they have some needs at the guard position. And they want two-way players per Nico Harrison division. And they have three centers now. So let me, just for to be devil's advocate, I'm Nico and I say, I view AD as a short-term option for us. I view Derek as the big picture center for our team. Would you be interested in Gafford instead? How old is Daniel Gafford? Let me pull up the payroll real quick.

Gafford is 26. Yes, I would be interested in Daniel Gafford. I think Daniel Gafford, you know, even when I looked back last year, like, there's a a little bit of a switch defense element with Derek lively that's more impressive. Yeah. But I think Daniel Gafford is actually a little bit more physically imposing underneath the basket. Definitely. And so it's tricky. I think Derek lively within a couple of years will be substantially better than Daniel. Yeah. But it is it is like it is complicated. There's also like the salary matching piece. I wonder because Dallas is not a team that has

cap space that you'll be trading into. Right. It would have to be a situation where you match salaries. So with Drew, let me pull up the Celtics payroll real quick. So Drew makes 30 or 32 if you trade for him this summer. Gafford is at 13. So what about what about Clay Thompson? Would you, what about a deal with like Gafford and Clay? I got no problem taking back the shell of Clay Thompson. If it, you know, if that's what's required from a salary matching standpoint. Let next year's a wash. Let the guy come and just put up a bunch of shots get let let the guy become a meme for the weirdest possible jersey you know dwayne way in a cavalier's jersey type of thing like that's no issue on my and i'm completely fine with that

let me take it a step further so they've got cooper flagg too they do so where the hell is p j washington fitting into all of this oh true i like what if it's more of like a drew holiday for jr washington and daniel gafford kind of deal what about i would throw in a first round pick that that would be an interesting move that would almost immediately make you more useful and both of those guys both PJ and Daniel would be bird right free agents the summer before Tatum returns okay so what's interesting about that then is you would have the ability to retain both of them at basically whatever number you wanted uh not north of 14 but i don't think either player PJ could encroach on that territory potentially.

Yeah. But yeah, like you, it's a, it's a flexibility move too in the sense that Drew Holiday has all those years left on his contract, but you're getting back to players that would actually come off of the books the year that Tatum comes back from his injury. Right. Then from Dallas's perspective, from Dallas's perspective, Drew Holiday, you could not pair a better guard with Anthony Davis. Couldn't.

Or with Kyrie Irving. What's Kyrie Irving? They played before. They've played before. You get a completely defensive specialist next to Kai, who's not a slash defensively, actually. But he's going to be coming back from a serious injury. You want someone who is going from Clay Thompson defensively to Drew Holiday, even as 34-year-old Drew Holiday, is about as big of a gap as you could go defensively.

To your point, though, I'd prefer Derek. But if I countered in that PJ Washington, Daniel Gafford range, I think that is a deal that substantially kind of like fits the Celtics new timeline. Also worth mentioning both those guys are 26 right now. Exactly. Yes. Okay, I got four more in this realistic slash possible category. I'm going to throw all of them at you and you tell me which ones you like the most. All of these are guys, well, they're on varying different levels of teams from in terms of win now versus not win now.

I got two guards and two bigs. Two guards. Jalen Suggs from the Orlando Magic. Also injured, you know, timeline-wise, what are they going to do with Jailen Suggs right now? Trey Murphy of the New Orleans Pelicans. New Orleans Pelicans, that would probably require a third team because the Pelicans, what do they need, Drew Holiday, or Chris has a sportsingis for?

But the third team, potentially. And then two bigs being Nick Claxton and Yakum Perkins. Okay. I'm the Magic's GM. You've pitched to me Drew Holiday for Jalen Suggs. One of the Magic's payroll real quick. If I'm the Magic's GM, I'm thinking I need shooting. Yeah.

And Drew Holiday doesn't shoot the ball well enough. So what if I said, I want Derek White for Jalen Suggs? Now, the construction, that deal, Derek White, if you made the, if you made the trade before the league year turned over, he only makes 20. Turns in 28 the following year. But if you did it before the league year, you could get it done with Jalen Suggs and Mo Wagner. So you get a big back. So now let's So let's pitch it this way

Because if I'm Orlando I'm saying like Drew doesn't help me In the short term or the long term Because of his age And because of his inconsistent shooting I like Derek White We talked about this the other day When we were talking to Celtics

Love Derek White But for the right deal I would move him Yeah I would move Derek White for Jalen Suggs And Mo Wagner in a heartbeat Yeah I think I would too I think I would too

I mean Jalen Suggs If everything goes right from an injury recovery standpoint and from a talent in a development standpoint, he could basically become just a better version. Maybe not better because Derek White's very good. But I think he could become a better defensive version. I think he's an amazing defender, even though Derek White is also very awesome. Jalen Suggs is arguably the best guard defender in the league.

He's dynamic. What I'm missing here, and this is an important detail, it's actually like a poison pill kind of trade because Jalen Suggs' new extension kicks in next year at 35 million. So you actually wouldn't get Mo back. you'd have to wait for the league year to turn over, and then you would trade Drew, or excuse me, Derek, directly for Jalen,

and you would have to include a little bit more salary, I think, although Orlando, yeah, you're going to have to include a little bit more salary. So it would be like, it would be like Derek White and, man,

the only other guy who really fits in that slot is Pritchard, and you don't want to give him up. Don't. You've got to keep Pritchard at his number. He's like, he's arguably like the best contract value in the league right now. Yeah. And a guy who won't make over 10 million at any point in his contract.

But that is a, that's an interesting idea. And if I'm Orlando, I'm sitting there thinking like Derek White with Palo and Franz, like that is an amazing fit. And Jalen Suggs to me is like a quintessential Celtic type of target. Me too. Triple shoot pass to Fend kind of guy. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, the other ones on that that I had in this sort of, you know,

category with Trey Murphy, Nick Claxon, Yacquit Jokopold. I don't think any of those are quite as good. Trey Murphy is, I mean, I love Trey Murphy. I don't know. That would definitely require a. third team. I'm wondering if there's a third team situation with the Mavericks there even where you're sending Drew Holiday to the Mavericks.

They send a first round pick or something to New Orleans. Some salary matching. We get Trey Murphy. That would be a hard one to sell to the fans getting rid of Trey Murphy. Nick Claxton is a very interesting one. Yeah. The reason why Nick Claxton would be perfect with the Celtics is he's a switching big who also

is a vertical spacer. So he could basically be kind of like a younger, more athletic version of what Robert Williams was for you guys. He makes $28 million, so you could seamlessly flip Drew for him. And the Nets have cap space so I could pitch it as an opportunity to shed salary. So let's talk about it like this. What if you call up the Nets and you try to put together a big salary dumping type of deal where you get rid of Drew and Christops? So you're sending out 62. You probably have to include all, like, you probably have to include multiple first round picks for them to do that.

I think so, yeah. So would you give up multiple first round picks? You got to think financially now, too, because in this scenario, Boston's trying to shed salary. So would you give up multiple first round picks to bring back Nick Clackston who's like the center of the future for you? He's 26 years old. He matches right up with Tatum's timeline.

Yeah. 26 years old, switching center, vertical spacer, but you got to give up your draft compensation to get off that salary. It's tough. I think it depends if there's other options on the table from a deal standpoint. I would not prioritize salary dumping. I think you might have to salary dump Chris Daps just straight up regardless of. Yeah. It looks awful. But I think Drew Holiday can get you something valuable. From a winner. So maybe you've you, it depends on the- To your point, maybe you view Porgzingis as the Nick Claxton piece and then you look at Drew as a piece where you can actually get something positive.

Right, right. That's kind of how I look at it. All right. The, the, are they, The fourth name? Who is the fourth name? Yacob Pertil. He's a little older. I don't like that one quite as much. Yeah. And Yacob's good.

Yacob's good. But yeah, I don't like that one as much either. Anyway, go ahead. My, are they open to trading these guys because are they going to make a huge shakeup this summer? Are, uh, is Jared Allen. As well as Darius Garland. But Jared Allen primarily because I do feel like big is a more of a priority than a guard. So this is a really interesting one.

Um, well, let me put you on the spot. about this first. After how Jared Allen's cut sucked in the playoffs the last few years. I mean, I think you got to just hope that you can make it, make it work. The Celtics bigs at this point are in dire strides. Alah Horford is, if he's not going to retire this summer, he's not, he's not going to be anywhere impactful next time that's healthy start making a playoff run. I love the guy. He's not going to be an impactful player in 2027 playoffs. I'm sorry. Also, part of the issue with Jared Allen, too, was like, everybody on the team fell apart

and he was just like part of that kind of like mess. So you kind of hope too that you just get him next to Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum and he just kind of takes on more of their toughness and personality. So he makes 20 million. So the calves of him, not mistaken, our second apron teams.

Like it's a little, as of next summer. As of the league calendar turning over because Evan Mowgli's extension kicks in at 46 million next year. Isn't that fucking crazy? So, okay, so we need to match more in the 20 million range. They wouldn't be able to aggregate salaries either. So that gets tough.

Cleveland's tough to trade with. Yeah. But Jared Allen's an interesting idea. Right. I think that one's kind of interesting. And then I got two pipe dream candidates from teams that certainly should not have interest in trading these players, but are complete dumpster fire organizationally right now. So maybe they make a huge shake up this summer.

Bam, out of bio. And John Moran. The Heat are not trading Bametabio to the Boston Celtics specifically. I do want to be clear that I'm not stupid. But Bamatabio and John Morin are two teams that are, if not going to make huge changes this summer, probably should make huge changes this summer. And I'm wondering if either those guys might be on the move. In their driving kick system, and we've discussed this,

the Celtics just don't pressure the rim enough to get the types of. Yeah. To get the types of quality threes when things really bogged down because Tatum's first step was never quite good enough to beat elite defenders off the dribble. And Jamlin Brown's handle isn't good enough to beat every elite defender off the dribble. So let's think if I'm getting rid of Jha, if I'm Memphis, what do I want in return? Yeah, I don't know what Memphis wants to do is the thing because they are sort of locked into a multiple more years of Desmond Bain and Jaron Jackson. They are paying those guys. A lot of them.

Okay. That's why I'm like, are they trying to stay relevant? If they're trying to stay relevant, y'all want Drew Holiday and a bunch of first round picks, I would give up a lot of first round picks, obviously, for John Moran. Would you give up Jalen Brown for John Moran? I would consider it. So I'd want a three.

I'd want a three. So what if you were like, but you could flip Drew for a three. So yeah, like what about a, yeah, Jaylen Brown for John Moran is super interesting on a couple of different levels. But I'm into it, though. it's for starters, the weakness of Memphis's roster is the three. Yeah.

That's literally the spot on their roster where they're weakest. It allows them to pivot off of Jha. Jha gets a fresh start with a team that's actually like kind of built as a drive and kick structure that kind of fits his game super well. He'd be a beautiful two-man game partner with Jason Tatum. You wouldn't have to do any sort of weird things with salary because Memphis is way under the cap in the new year. so you could straight up trade Jalen Brown for John Moran. Okay, so let me put you on the spot about this. Brad Stevens calls Memphis offers straight up Jalen Brown for John Moran.

Who's more likely to say no? Boston. I think Boston is going to say now. I think Memphis wants to trade John Moran. I think they just can't stomach it without getting a like an all-star in return. And it's pretty easy to sell Jalen Brown. I'm not going to lie. He's got its deficiencies, but it's a pretty easy sell.

and in addition to that, I immediately shed $14 million in salary. Yeah. That's a really interesting trade. You trade Jalen Bradford John Moran, you turn Drew and Chrisaps into some version of what we talked about earlier. You're looking at a weird brand new roster, basically, but a very fun Southeast basketball team.

And John Moray always has, like, injury-related issues where it would be so easy to just, like, be like, hey, you're sitting down for the next two weeks so we can get a great draft. Oh, for sure. For sure. No, next season. Yeah, 100%. Like, if you trade Jalen Brown for John Morant, you can turn, you turn Drew Holiday into, into Derek lively or Daniel Gafford. Dude. All of a sudden, you got in 20, whatever, 26, 27 season, John Morant, Samhouser, Jason Tatum, someone else and Derek lively is a pretty fun grouping of players.

Is there, so in this theoretical scenario, if I'm getting rid of Drew and Jalen, I'm getting rid of my two best point of attack defenders by far. Do you think Derek White is up to the task of being the primary point of attack guy for a championship team? I don't know. Not really. I feel like he, he is strange, for being a really good defender, a really good defensive player, he's strangely not like the most just guard guy one-on-one good.

He's very smart and he gets a lot of weak side rotation blocks and a lot of transition blocks. He's a great at close-outs. He's an awesome defender. But he is not the type of just throw him at other team's best guard and like hope for stops type of guy in my opinion. Yeah. And so then basically what you have to do is essentially view the future as meaning like next year and the following year as like you just got to try to find the next guy who will be your primary point of attack guy. And that could literally be in these trades that we've

pitched in this particular scenario. So let's call it, uh, let's say you flip Drew because Drew has immediate value to Dallas and you flip Brown who has immediate at value to Memphis. In this situation, you would still have your draft compensation. And so then you could try to look to move one of these guys for a primary point of attack guard. That's where it's like maybe you look at Orlando and you go like, now let's talk Derek White for Jalen sucks. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. A John Morant, Jalen Suggs, Sam Houser, Jason Tatum, Daniel Gafford's starting lineup is so weird that it's kind of breaking my brain. But it's of all the pivots you could make.

I think we designed a pretty good one for the Celtics. I like it. I was listening to Pete Zez earlier today. He was talking with Anthony Irwin about some Laker stuff. And he's like, I think we need to take a hatchet to the roster of the suburb. So you're Jackson, seriously, we need to take a hatchet in the roster of the summer. I'm definitely taking a hatchet with these brids. It's not, this is not minor tweaks, you know.

I expect them to more to do just do a minor tweaks around the edges type of summer than this. But, you know, if they're going to make changes. Anybody else on your list? No, that's pretty much it. I mean, bam was the other pipe. one, but. Bam. Yeah, and yeah, the Bam is an interesting one, but he definitely would have to go to a different team first before the, before you could even potentially pull something like that off. That's super interesting though. That was a, the, the, the, the Jalen Brown for John Morant thing is a

very, very interesting trade to consider because the specific dynamic that Boston has been missing over the years is a singular trait that no team can fuck with. Everything with, everything with has been aggregate talent. Even like Tatum's game in and of itself is an aggregation of a bunch of different pieces that he's very good at, but not elite at. And John Morant brings the singular trait, which is no one can keep him in front off the dribble. And that could be a foundational piece that Tatum could be basically a force multiplier for

because his versatility becomes very valuable in the context of a team that like, Like, there's no way you lose game one and two of this series if you have John Morant because he's just going to be able to get you two or three more buckets down the stretch of a game because he has been one of the most dynamic clutch players in the league. Because no one can stop him from popping up off the ground seven feet from the basket and shooting a little floater that no one can guard. And you just have to sit there and go, please miss it, Jha. Or hopefully we're up by 15 before he gets there. Like that, as frustrating of a player as he's been, he does have that upside. But this is a really fun exercise, Jackson. I think we're going to save the mailback for playback.

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We'll be back on YouTube tomorrow. We have tomorrow off. Oh, my goodness. Today is the 28th consecutive night. that we have done this, but we are taking tomorrow night off because there are no games. But tomorrow I will be working on the series preview for Nick's Pacers that will most likely be up on Sunday morning. Sunday afternoon, I'm actually going live with Colin right after the game. So Hoops tonight will be about an hour after that will be going.

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