The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - LIVE: KNICKS-PACERS REACTION: Jalen Brunson & KAT dominate to force Game 6 vs. Tyrese Haliburton & Siakam

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

Jason reacts live after the New York Knicks play an elite Game 5 to get a win vs. the Indiana Pacers and extend the Eastern Conference Finals. Both Jalen Brunson and Karl-Anthony Towns were special in an effort to beat Tyrese Haliburton and Pascal Siakam.    Follow the show on Playback for future “Aftershow” content: https://www.playback.tv/hoopstonight  #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Happy Thursday, everybody. Hope all of you guys are having a great week. Well, the New York Knicks with their season on the line, played the best game that they played in this postseason from start to finish. This is a team that's had a lot of success in this postseason, but it's been pretty uneven, even their wins, especially in the Celtic series, felt like all of them came from substantial deficits where they played poorly for the most part,

but then played great in these short bursts. a wire to wire dominant performance by the New York Knicks, kind of changing the way they were defending as well. We'll talk a lot about that and how it translates to game six, as well as how it could translate forward to a potential NBA final series. Lots of interesting stuff we're going to get into tonight. Then at the tail end of the show, we're going to take 10, 15 minutes of mailbag questions from you guys.

You guys know the drill before we get started, subscribe to the Hoops Tonight YouTube channel so you don't miss any more of our videos. Follow me on Twitter at underscore Jason LT so you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast feed wherever you get your podcast. under Hoops Tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave a rating and a review on that front. Jackson is doing great work on our social media feeds, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there. And then like I mentioned off the top, get those mailbag questions into the chat so that we can hit them at the tail into the show. Any specific angles of the series you guys want to dig deeper into anything's fair game. You could drop them in the chat.

Also, when we finish here tonight, we're heading over to Playback. That's Playback. dot TV slash hoops tonight. That's where we take callers. We watch film. It's more informal. We just talk hoops. We kind of hang out more as a community. And I've been really enjoying those,

those streams. So make sure you guys hop over there with us when we finish tonight on YouTube. All right, let's talk some basketball. So the big takeaway in terms of the schematic difference between game five and game six or game four and game five. And again, like most of the case when it comes to situations like this is just the natural swings of urgency. that take place in a playoff series.

I feel like we've had fewer of those kinds of swings in this playoff run compared to some recent years. I think that probably has something to do with the overall level of physicality. But this is kind of what happens in playoff series as urgency kind of oscillates back and forth, especially between two teams that are relatively evenly matched, at least when it comes to their ceiling like these two teams. And the Knicks just came out with a ton of urgency. Jalen Brunson immediately comes out with the 6-0 run, just obviously bringing in the aggression that he wasn't bringing.

down the stretch of game four. He's kind of had a different feel in terms of that intensity. Tyrese Halliburton just completely no-shows the game against some ball pressure. And here we are sitting at three, two. But what were the specific? So the Knicks really went with a bunch of super aggressive coverages tonight. Tons of ball pressure, tons of denial trying to prevent Tyrese Halliburton from even getting the ball.

This is something we talked a lot about going into the series. And we did see briefly at various points throughout the series, especially down the stretch of game three when they got to win. But just out the gates tonight, they were able to get Tyrese Halliburton to be way less aggressive just by bringing a ton of pressure, not just in the denials, but also when he had the ball. It kind of felt like Tyrese was getting rid of the ball just a beat too early tonight, like where he would get downhill on a ball screen and he'd already be jumping to turn around and pass out of it before he's even really threatened in any way as a

score. And that's the impact of pressure. Pressure makes ball handlers uncomfortable. another big thing you saw tonight was off ball denials whenever anybody picked up their dribbles. So or had a ball in the triple threat. So like if you threw the ball to the high post or if a guy happened to pick up his dribble because he over penetrated and needed to stop, boom, everybody was face guarding denying trying to prevent those easy kickouts. And just in general, they made Indiana way, way, way more uncomfortable than they did in previous moments in the series in ball screens.

They were blitzing. They were showing up high. just really getting aggressive on the ball. You could hear Tibbs in that first or second time out on the broadcast when they show what he was saying in the huddle. He was like, aggressive, aggressive, aggressive on our blitzes, on our shows, in our pressure, and our denials, aggressive. The point being you can take advantage of the dynamic that's at play

in terms of the urgency and it being an elimination game. I like the idea of going with super aggressive coverages in this type of game. You're at home in front of Madison Square Garden and that crowd is just ravenous, right? You're facing elimination, so you know you're going to get a certain level of urgency out of your guys. The refs are going to let you get away with a lot of physicality in this type of game. And most of all, it prevents you from coming out lethargic. These coverages puts you in situations where you're asked to sprint and be aggressive,

whether that's in a ball pressure situation or just because you're rotating around off the ball after the pass comes out. It requires intensity to be that aggressive. And so it kind of just brings. it out of you out of necessity, right? And Indiana really just came apart at the seams. To give you guys an idea, their previous series high in turnovers was 14. They had 20 tonight. They had averaged just 10 and a half turnovers per game in the series. They doubled that in tonight's game. That's the level of discomfort they caused. Indiana scored just 45 points in the first half. Remember guys, first quarter of game four, they had 43 points. So just two completely different

pacer's offenses in the last two games because of that intensity and physicality. And again, like Tyresearch Halliburton, as he's known to do at times. And it's been less often in this postseason run than it was last year. But when teams bring super intense defensive efforts, he can no show a game. And that's what he did tonight. And that, you know, when that happens, it's really difficult for Indiana to score effectively. And it is something to keep in mind for Oklahoma the city. We'll talk more about that later. Should we get to that, to that point if Indiana can close it out. But I thought everyone for the Knicks was great on that, especially on the defensive end of the floor tonight. I specifically want to shout out Mitchell Robinson. He didn't get a ton of burn in the

second half as Tibbs went more in the direction of Josh Hart. And Josh, I thought, played well tonight. I thought it was one of Josh's better games in the series. It's kind of like making some of the shots he was missing earlier, grabbing some of the contested rebounds. He was missing earlier in the series right type of game to to a play Josh. And there was a couple runs that they gave up at various points. But in the first half in particular, when they were making that initial push, I thought Mitchell Robinson was everywhere. The big thing that really stands out to me with Mitch is his recovery athleticism. You saw a couple of his like transition defense sequences where he gets a little too much dip on his chip and he like just straight up like attack someone

in the air and commits a foul. But again, preventing the easy layup and making the guys actually earn those points at the line, but in general, in every single one of those situations, whether it's a ball screen where he's pursuing or he's in rotation or he's in just like a situation where he's on the ball while everyone else is denying. He just brings this level of athleticism and kind of, it just feels like he just engulfs whoever he's going after in those situations. He's one of the most fun to watch defensive players in the league when he's really going. And I, you know, Mitchell Robinson is an interesting player in terms of how he kind of fits in the league beyond the scope of just a backup center.

There are some issues, obviously, in terms of maintaining motor over larger minute loads and whether or not he has the offensive utility to be a factor in a more, you know, featured role. But when he comes off the bench and obviously for the last two games in a starting role, and he's when he's out there in those limited minutes, he just brings this absurd amount of energy and it can just really be disruptive for their opponent. I thought Brunson and Kat were both phenomenal in offense tonight. Again, Brunson, kind of a classic, like, we're not losing type of attitude.

Like, you could just see it in his body language and demeanor right out the gates. He knew that he didn't do enough at down the stretch of game four. We watched the end of game four after on playback a couple nights ago. And it's just kind of weird how Brunson just wasn't looking to be aggressive down the stretch and was just kind of passing out of some situations that we typically see him shoot out of. But he fixed that right away. I mean, we were talking about Niece Smith, not solving him, so to speak, we're really wearing him down over the course of the series.

Strong sign tonight that he came out and just straight up bested that matchup immediately out the gates. And he's going to have to do that again in game six for the Knicks to win. And then Carl Anthony Towns, he's been basically unguardable since the fourth quarter of game three. It seems like it's really clicked for him that none of these dudes can guard him in terms of one-on-one kind of face-up situations. He can just rip through whether it's right or left. and just power through contact and get all the way to the bucket.

And you could tell Indiana's trying really hard to send him to his left hand, but he was able to power through to his right hand several times today and just get up through contact. And he just like rips his arms up through the people that are reaching and grabbing. And he just has a gift for finishing through contact. He was amazing tonight, really just a wire-to-wire dominant performance for the Knicks. And if you're looking for a bit of optimism,

it's the first time in this series that they've had that type of wire, wire performance. And the last time they had a wire to wire type of performance like that was in Game 6 against the Celtics, if you guys remember when they really were peaking at that point in the series. And they're going to need to maintain that peak if they're going to have any chance to win Game 6. Game 6 will be the toughest game that New York has played in this series.

We talked after Game 4. These two teams, when they're at their best, are pretty similar. I you can even argue that New York ceiling is maybe a touch higher just because Kat and Jalen Brunson are more reliable as one-on-one players if they end up in slowdown situations than a Seacum or a Halliburton. But the difference is I know what we're going to get from Indiana on Saturday. We're going to get the Pacers very best. They're going to come out the gates with a ton of pressure and pace and aggressiveness and energy and all of it. I feel pretty confident Halliburton's going to have a big bounce back game like they,

are going to be the best version of the Pacers on Saturday night. With the Knicks, I literally have no idea what to expect this Saturday. And I would imagine most of you, Knicks fans feel the same. Like, they're just as likely to roll over and get beat by 30 as they are to win the game. And that that's what makes them really difficult to get a read on for this type of game because we've just seen so many times, even in series that they've won in this postseason, look bad. And for extended stretches. And so it's just, it's just kind of weird. I just don't know what we're going to get. But to be clear, I do know that New York can win that game. In terms of the schematics, I would try those same super aggressive coverages again. It's the only time in the series they've had

sustained defensive success. Even going back to our playback session last night when we started watching some of the OKC Indiana tape, just in prep for a theoretical finals, there were a lot of Oklahoma City had a lot of success. They were also able to get Tyrese Halliburton to just completely disengage with that type of pressure. It might just be your best chance to beat the Pacers. And also it just keeps you aggressive. I mean, like, think of it like this.

If you're going to give up a bunch of advantages anyway because when you're in your traditional defense, you get lost too often, might as well get lost in the context of everybody flying around and trying to pressure the ball and see if it can cause enough chaos to prevent those sorts of easy kind of tick-tack toe sequences where Indiana gets wide open shots

over and over again. I also think trying to bring the worst out of Tyre Salliburton is the best way to give yourself a chance to win in that building. If you let him get comfortable, I think you're just going to lose. And so, again, ball pressure, denial, same sort of stuff in game six. I think you have to lean into that. But again, the Knicks

have clearly demonstrated in this series at two different points down the stretch of game four and then again tonight that they can shake Indiana's offensive foundation with their defense. In game six, if they do that, got a very good chance to win. For the Pacers, it's just about not allowing New York's pressure to dislodge them from

their offense. Halliburton's got to shed the denials. Be physical on the ball. Throw the guy out of the way. Go get the basketball. Look to be more aggressive early and often in the game. Don't pass the ball too early out of your attacks. If you pass the ball too early, if the defense hasn't committed to you in any real way,

there's no advantage that you're creating. You create advantage by being a threat. You be a threat by looking to get further. deeper into your attacks. That was just completely missing from Tyrese Halliburton tonight. Make the defense react to you. One of the things we saw in film, and this is something that I've talked about a lot in this postseason,

dating back to the Cavs series. But I really like when Halliburton is getting denied and facing a lot of pressure, and he's going through one of those stretches where he's being a little bit more uninvolved. Get him involved in the action. Have him be a screener. We saw some examples of that again in the Oklahoma City tape last night,

where in the one clutch game they played, a lot of Nemhart on ball because Halliburton were struggling with Dort. Well, they just used Halliburton as a screener and like, you know, double drag and stack type of actions to try to keep him involved. And again, like, when you are in a situation where you're like hugging, there were so many examples tonight where like they're showing replays

and like Knicks are literally like hugging Pacers off the ball. And again, that's just playoff basketball. That's the kind of contact. They've been allowing off ball more or less this entire postseason. every series, but you've got to find a way to, uh, to have success in that context. And if you have an on ball guys, call it Nemhard or Seacom and you have, uh, you have Halliburton go up to set the screen and McHale Bridges is hugging him. McHale's probably not going to help on screens. And so there's a lot of, uh, advantages you can create there by either having the guy turn the corner as Halliburton

screening or if McAil comes off in any way, shape, or form, he can then slip out of it. And then Tyrus Halliburton has an opportunity to attack with an advantage, but he is attack from Halliburton. When he does get his catches, when he does get his opportunities, he cannot just completely disengage from the game offensively the way he did tonight. And then on defense, I'm more or less okay with how they've guarded Jaylen Brunson. I thought they could have been a little bit tighter on their help tonight. There were a couple of situations where I thought they were just a step late, especially from the low man position.

Aaron East Smith obviously can do a better job staying attached. He's won that matchup over the tail end of this series. but Brunson is what he is and there's only so much you can do. I'm not necessarily worried about the specific coverage there. With Kat, though, I think they need to throw more resources at him. They have to make him a passer, more aggressive with the double teams,

earlier with help, put him in a situation where he has to make reeds in traffic instead of just allowing him to bulldoze his way to the rim in one-on-one situations. Once Kat gets his momentum, he's just a bull in a china shop and he's going to win that battle more often than not. You've got to put him in a situation where he can't get his runway.

And the only way you're going to do that is if you bring early help or doubles. And so I want to see a lot of that in game six. Last note on the Pacers before we get to our questions, I'm a little concerned about a theoretical Oklahoma City matchup after a little bit of the film that we watched last night and from what I saw tonight. So we've been going back and forth about this. And I haven't really devoted a ton of, of energy towards watching all of the tape because I want to wait so we know what the actual matchup is.

It would be annoying if I did that. And then all of a sudden we're covering a Knicks Thunder Finals, right? But we've done a little bit of it. We watched a little bit of tape last night from Oklahoma City. And I've been thinking through theoretical coverages and stuff like that with Jackson. We've talked in segments on the show. And, you know, we came around to being a little more positive in terms of just, their ability to pass through Oklahoma City's defense and some of their smaller guards and

their ability to slide their feet and stay in front of Shea. But one of the things that we saw last night in the Oklahoma City game is Tyree's Halliburton wanted nothing to do with the basketball down the stretch of a game. And they were just going through Andrew Nemhard and using Halliburton a little bit as a screener. And they lost that game in a crunch time situation in Indiana. Now context there being substantially earlier in the season, basically a different Pacer's team. Neesmith wasn't even available in that game. There were several sequences where Oklahoma City was pinching off of Ben Matherin. And you can tell the Pacers were just a little bit hesitant to throw that kickout pass because he's not the level of shooter that Neesmith is. And so like again,

the regular season basketball is regular season basketball. And hopefully over the course of a series, Tyrese would be more comfortable. But it was a little discouraging to see that he just didn't really seem to be comfortable at all operating with the ball against Oklahoma City's defense. The Knicks, they they've been like occasionally cosplaying as a good defense at various points in the season. They have had no sustained defensive success at all at any point in this postseason or in this entire season dating from October all the way through to this point. The point being,

they are not going to, they're not going to be able to reach the level that Oklahoma City can reach on that end of the four. Point being, you're going, whatever it is you're seeing from New York, it's going to be a substantially harder version of it in the finals if you even get to that point. And so again, step number one is you got to be able to handle this pressure and you got to be able to play Pacers basketball because if you can't figure it out against the Knicks, you have no chance of figuring it out against the Thunder. If I had to pick right now for game six, I think Indiana wins and wins comfortably.

But I absolutely think the Knicks have a chance to win that series or that game. And I think if they do win that game, all of a sudden they become the favorite to win the series and have a great chance to go to the finals. So if you're a Knicks fan, you just got to think about it in a one game context. Go win on Saturday, and you're in great shape to go to the finals. Go win on Saturday, right?

But you guys know the job. It's not going to be easy. That Pacers team and must win games at home has been literally a buzzsaw. So I think the Pacers are the safe bet, but the Knicks absolutely have their chance. Blending Weiss's signature dynamic storytelling with the high-octane world of sports,

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I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

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Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. Last night, a blown call changed a game. This morning, the internet lost its mind. Highlights are trending, opinions are flying, and nobody's telling you exactly what happened. That's where Sports Slice comes in. I'm Timbo.

Every episode, we're cutting through the noise. Breaking down the plays, the controversies, and the stories behind the headlines. We go straight to the source, the athletes themselves. Their locker room stories, their reactions, the stuff nobody gets to hear. The laughs, the drama, the triumphs, the moments that never make the highlight real. From viral moments to historic games, from buzzer beaders to controversial calls, we break it down, give you context, and ask the questions everybody wants answered. Sports slice brings you closer to the action.

with stories told by the people who live them. Listen to Sports Slice on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more, follow Timbo Slicelife-Life 12 and the TikTok podcast network on TikTok. All right, let's get to Jackson and let's get to some questions. Let's do it. Let's sort of stay on that game six,

how the Knicks would win topic for a minute here. If the Knicks win game six, do you think it would be more about their defense and the pressure of the turnovers they were able to generate tonight or more about their offensive success via Kat's sort of continued dominance in Brunson? I think that the Knicks offense kind of feeds off of their defense. Their team that I think has been at their best offensively this season when they're running out in transition. So I think they're kind of connected to a certain extent.

I'm not particularly worried about Brunson and Kat being able to generate offense. There's a certain amount of like role player shooting variable that you have to factor in. Like, I mean, I thought the four jump shots that Landry Shammit and do some McBride hit tonight were huge. Like they each hit a catch and shoot three and then they each hit a kind of a tough off the dribble jump shot in, uh, in the mid range that were important shots. Uh, Schammets was weird. He like jumped way back and almost had his feet on the three point line. But like there's a certain amount of like that role player shooting that could be a variable in that sort of game. But I think it's all about the defense. Like to put it very simply,

the Pacers are a great shot generating machine. And if they allow that machine to operate, they're just going to make the shots and you're going to lose. The only chance you have is to disrupt that engine, dislodge them from their offensive foundation to where they're not moving the ball as well. They're not playing with as much pace. They're starting to second guess their decision making. Tyrese Halliburton wants no parts of it. That's where you have the opportunity to really slow the game down, at least on that side of the floor. And then just pushing off of misses, pushing off of turnovers. And when it comes down to a close game late in the half court, you like your chances with Jalen Brunson and Carl Anthony Towns, right?

So I think it has more to do with their defense. So you were saying if you were going to finish the sentence in like an old school sports castaway, the Knicks win game six if it's if they're able to make Tyries Halliburton uncomfortable? Yes, if they're able to, I think in general dislodging Indiana from their foundation on offense, meaning like taking away some of the easy transition opportunities, preventing the like, oh, there's 17 on the shot clock and they've already gotten into action and created a wide open catch and shoot situation.

like ball pressure denial, preventing them from getting into their stuff early, making them work deeper into the clock and making them play one-on-one. What is your take on the Knicks looking so good in the last couple games sort of extending leads in the minutes with Brunson's been on the bench? This has been something we looked into in the numbers on playback one of the nights a couple, it was like a couple nights ago or something like that. Basically when Brunson's on and cats off, they're good. And when cats on and Brunson's off, they're good.

and when both of them have been on, they've been a net negative at this point in the postseason. And it's really not all that complicated. There's a, there's a simplified order of operations when you have one ball handler on the floor. That dude just knows he's got to be super aggressive. And that can, like any basketball player knows that if you play alongside a bunch of ball handling talent,

it can be a more complicated process of like figuring out rhythm. Like sometimes you overpass, sometimes you underpass. Like there's a lot of like, who is it that's looking to be aggressive in this part of the game? having staggering gives you a situation where it's like, hey, here are the keys of the offense. You're working. You know, yeah, Duce is out there.

McHale's out there to run second side action, but we're playing through you. And then it's a simple fact that like every other New York Knicks player that touches the floor is a dude that heats on the defensive end and flies around in rotation. And so if you have four of those dudes on the floor instead of three, you're just a better defensive team. And honestly, that's the thing that stood out in the numbers too when we looked.

It's just the Knicks defense with both of them on the floor is just rough. Yeah, it's, yeah, for sure. On the point of the Nix defense and the ball pressure, that was definitely the big storyline from the night. Why do you think they haven't done this earlier? Is it a coaching tip, not his tips philosophy right now? Is he worried about the personnel? Like, what has taken them so long to make this kind of adjustment?

Every basketball team has an identity. We've talked about this a lot with regards to the Pacers and the Thunder. we've talked about it even with like golden state there's like certain teams where it's like we have a goal to maximize our talent and grab every little bit of low hanging fruit and so this is the way that we're looking to go but those teams have depth the the warriors consistently have had you know 12 to 13 role players that they trusted to play big minutes the pacers have had a bench they can go to the thunder have a deep bench they can go to I think that Tibbs has looked at his team and been like,

I trust six of these dudes, so maybe seven. So we need to keep their minutes high. And so as a result of that, I can't be asking them to blitz and deny and pick up full court and do all that sort of stuff. urgency brought that out. But I think another part of it too is like,

like getting to the, like I thought precious to his shift that he played tonight was pretty effective. I think he came in late too, but when he came in in that third quarter stretch, like I thought he was effective. The Dillon Wright minutes have been effective on the defensive end throughout the series and the bits that he's been playing. Landry Shammat's been like good, like flat out good for that.

So like digging deeper into the bench and putting those guys in a position where they're playing more roles like like 18 minutes out of Duce McBride, 14 minutes out of Landryshamette, 10 minutes out of the lawn right. That keeps everyone else's minutes down. Kat played 36 minutes. No other starter played over 34. You put yourself in a situation where because you're using your depth you're more comfortable picking up full court denying being that physical.

I think they would have done it anyway under the circumstances just because of the intensity of the moment. And we have seen in this postseason for stretches, they really ratcheted up defensively and they look great. But I think just going with a shorter rotation has caused the Knicks. And this has been a thing they've done most of the season. Going with a shorter rotation most of the season has put them in a situation where their base scheme has had to involve a certain amount of passivity on the defensive end

the floor. Yeah, I, I feel like that sort of speaks to a bit, like really shows the flaw in some of Tibbs's thinking. It's like he hasn't even given, not that you would, if you were looking on paper, you would necessarily think guys like Dilan Wright, Precious Chua and Landry Shammett would be playoff game changers. But it's sort of like the moment those guys came in, they were effective. It is a little, not an indictment. It's not that's too strong of a word. I don't mean that that strongly. But it does sort of illustrate, I think, some of the, the issues that Knicks fans have with Tibbs. If he plays his starter such heavy minutes,

doesn't necessarily give these other guys a chance to carve out a role for themselves because the moment those guys are given the minutes, in the biggest moment of the season, they have been effective. There's a proven way to make basketball easy that Indiana and Oklahoma City have capitalized on two. What I mean by that is like,

it's not like, if you look at Indiana's roster, how many people were super high on Obie Toppin before he played for the Pacers? How many people were super high on Thomas Bryant before he played for the Pacers? Like Ben Mathurn's a guy who's been integrated at various points throughout throughout his young career as being kind of a shot chucker and inefficient, you know, a guy who can't play off ball. When you put, when you put these guys into a system, a system that has simple rules, here's how we run,

here's what we do on offense, here's the way, we defend when you when you put these guys in situations where like any basketball player can be successful as long as they follow these basic rules and these basic reads you can turn you know fringe NBA talent I'm not trying to say these guys are fringe NBA talent but relative to what we would consider to be like the types of rock solid playoff bench guys that we've thought about over the years you know like Bruce Brown with the nuggets or you know livingston and niguadala with the warriors back in the day, whoever. Like, these guys are, are benefiting from the culture that comes from the top down.

So, like, to your point, like, if Tibbs started the season and said, we're going to pick up full court and we're going to deny and we're going to be super physical with our ball pressure and we're going to run in transition like crazy, then you get into a situation where you're running an 10, 11 man rotation from the start of the year. we might look at Landry Shamit and the lawn right and these guys, precious to Chua as like different basketball players in the big picture because they fit into like this scheme. And it's like just Tibbs went a different route.

Tibbs went the I want to lean on my top end talent as much as possible. So we're going to be a team that cuts corners on defense all year long. And so guess what? They've been inconsistent on defense in this postseason. And it's kind of like, you know, if there's one thing that has stood out to me in a big way, And it's funny because this is something I've always believed. This is this is something I've always believed. But I just at certain points I'll like undervalue it, you know,

especially as we've been thinking more about offense recently, getting a team to just play the right way on a night and night out basis during the regular season matters. It just does. And we are looking down the barrel of most likely at Indiana, Oklahoma City finals. And I would argue the thunder played harder all season. than anybody. And I'd argue the Pacers played harder over the second half of the season than anybody out east.

And here they are, looking sharper and getting more of that low-hanging fruit and winning basketball games as a result. Well, next question. Does Katz dominance in the back half of this series change your

thought, your perspective, if the Knicks should trade him this summer? There's a little bit of a matchup related thing here going on with Indiana, which is like none of their dudes are big enough to handle him. So I think like there are versions of matchups that you could see on a series by series basis that, like for instance, like let's say that the Knicks made it to the finals. The Thunder are a more physical team with a pretty, pretty strong front line defensively now with

Chet and Isaiah Hartnstein. It's very possible that he looks ineffectual offensively in a series like that. So like I don't want to sit here and say that I don't want to sit here and undercut the work that cat stunned down the stretch of the series. He has found out that Indiana can't guard him and he's having a lot of success now bullying his way to the basket. And that I think matters. But the flip side of it is is that everything is matchup dependent and we just have so many examples over the years of cat kind of struggling. And here's the thing, guys. Let's see how Cat defends in game six. Like it's a big important game on the road must win elimination game. Like he goes out in game six

and he defends the way that he needs to defend and he puts in, you know, 25 and 15, then yeah, we can start having a different conversation as he's now done it in a high-stakes situation to put himself in a situation where he can go to the finals. But like to this point, if we like really zoom out from this postseason, it's been a little bit more complicated

than just here is points per game totals. For sure. Last question before we go over to playback, the draft, uh, the draft, uh, the draft Kings line on game six is Pacers minus four. I'm going to put you on the spot.

Who is going to win games? If you had to pick right now, who is going to win game six? I think the Pacers will win and they'll cover. I think I didn't pick the Pacers over the Knicks because of like anti-Nix anything or any sort of like even matchup related stuff. I just think the Pacers are a better team. I think they're a better team on both ends of the floor because they're more consistently at their ceiling. I do think the Knicks can win that game.

But I just think the Pacers are a safer bet because they've demonstrated that throughout this season. They have also just been consistently an absolute buzzsaw in like must win games at home. And I just think that I just think that's going to be one of the most difficult games that you could ever ask a team to win is go on the road to Indiana. They get they get to go to the finals if they win. Like it's going to it's going to be rough. And so again, it's not that I don't think the Knicks can win. I just think the Pacers are far and away the safe bet.

and I think it's more likely than not that they win big. Like, I'd be looking at alternate spread bets in a game like that. All right, guys, that's all I have for tonight. Again, we're heading over to Playback. So that's Playback.com. TV slash Hoops tonight. We'll be taking callers and hanging out and having fun. Make sure you guys head over there.

For those who guys are not following us, we'll be back on YouTube Saturday night. We've got 38 of the last 41 nights, but we are finally done going every night. So we will be back on Saturday night for game six of the Eastern Conference Finals. between the Pacers and the Knicks. I will see you guys. As always, I appreciate you for listening to

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