The Herd with Colin Cowherd - Hoops Tonight - LIVE: OKC Continues Dominance, Goes Up 2-0 on Timberwolves

Episode Date: May 23, 2025

Jason reacts live after the Oklahoma City Thunder take a 2-0 lead over the Minnesota Timberwolves with a big win in Game 2. He discusses Shai Gilgeous-Alexander living up to his MVP, Jalen Williams and Chet Holmgren continuing their strong play, Anthony Edwards being more aggressive but ultimately falling short.    Visit Microsoft.com/challengers to learn more.   #Volume #HerdSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Here at the volume, happy Thursday, everybody. Hope all you guys are having a great week. Well, game two of the Western Conference Finals looked very similar. to game one, except for we didn't get the rough shooting performance from Chey Gell just Alexander in the first quarter. We got a few different defensive looks from Minnesota, neither of which I thought were the answer. And once again, down the stretch, Oklahoma City pulls away as Minnesota just gets frustrated and kind of

let's go with a rope. And we are headed back to Minnesota with the Thunder up to O in this series. We're going to be breaking down this game from the perspective of both teams. I'm going to talk about some potential adjustments. We're going to be talking a lot about SGA today and some of the specific ways that he's super effective as an on-ball score. Our Microsoft segment today, we're going to be covering Shay's MVP case,

lots of Shay talk today. And then at the tail end of the show, we'll take 10 to 15 minutes of mailbag questions from the chat. When we finish up here tonight, we're going to be heading over to playback for our usual after show. That's where we take collars. We watch film. We have a much more informal,

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So you guys don't miss show announcements. Don't forget about our podcast fee wherever you get your podcast under Hoops tonight. It's also super helpful if you leave a rating in a review on that front. Jackson is doing great work on our social media feeds, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. Make sure you guys follow us there. And then like we mentioned earlier, keep dropping those mailback questions in the YouTube comments so we can get to them at the tail end of the show from the chat. All right, let's talk some basketball.

So I thought tonight was a classic example of how watching the box score is not the answer to who is playing better in any particular game. We had a question right after game one where someone asked me why I wasn't more critical of Anthony Edwards scoring zero points in the fourth quarter. and one of the things we've talked a lot about since that is the reality in the massive difference between the way these two teams are guarding each other. It was way more aggressive tonight.

He had 32, 9, and 6. And he was a minus 22, and I didn't think he played particularly well. The reality is, is these two teams are guarding each other in diametrically opposed fashion. The Thunder are packing the paint conceding corner kickouts, literally begging for Aunt and Julius

to try to force it into traffic so that they can be inefficient and turn the basketball over. On the other end of the floor, and the other part of it too is they're just trying to force Minnesota their role players to take mildly contested corner threes in high pressure situations. On the other end of the floor, with exception of a few sequences of zone, which we'll talk about in a little bit,

which the Thunder scored fine against. And then kind of a haphazard, aggressive double team approach against Shea in the fourth quarter. A lot of just staying home on shooters and just pressing up on Shea playing one on one against him, defending ball screens two on two. The job for Shea in this series is to score the basketball. So what I'm looking for from Shea is scoring volume and efficiency. the job for Ant and Julius in this series is to get the ball out to their shooters on time, on target, in the shooting pocket, so that they can either make the defense pay knocking down the shot or drive a close out and get the defense into rotation where they can attack from there. And Aunt came out tonight and took 18 shots in the first half. And like there were some good looks in there, some good three point shots off the catch that I liked, some that he made, some that he missed.

driving layup off of a Julius Randall post up where he was one pass away where he finished over the top of Chet driving a closeout. There are shots in there that I like. There are some even some one, there are even some on ball one-on-one shots that I liked in there. But they're like eight or nine of those shots that I thought were bad shots. Early clock contested pull-up threes against a pick and roll coverage or trying to knife through six different bodies in the paint, including his own teammates to try to finish in traffic. I thought he forced the issue tonight. And Minnesota couldn't score. They didn't score over 25 points in a quarter until the fourth quarter. On the other end of the floor, Shea came out and consistently and efficiently

worked out of ISOs and ball screens to make the wolves pay for letting them play one-on-one and letting them play two-on-two. So the question is, how is it that Shea continues to be so successful against the defense as good as Minnesota's. And it goes deeper than the game plan. Part of it is the game plan. By the way, Shea has torched Minnesota all year long. The first half of game one was the exception. He has torched these guys. Part of it is the game plan.

Chris Finch historically has trusted his one-on-one defenders and wanted to stay home off the ball. That is very much a Chris Finch ideology. It's like the exact opposite of what you see from OKC or Memphis or some of these younger forward aggressive pack-to-paint types of teams. But it goes deeper than that. Minnesota has elite one-on-one defenders. Jaden McDaniels is theoretically the perfect type of player to guard a guy like Shea. A guy that he can't overpower, a guy that has, he's got longer arms, is taller, who moves his feet well, great at contesting pull-up jump shots. We even saw him block.

Shea pull-up three tonight. Like, he's theoretically the perfect type of player to guard it. But Shea Gildes-Alexander was the best high-volume ISO player in the league this year, for a reason. Out of the five players to run at least 300-shot attempts out of ISO's, his 1.10 points per possession rank number one in the league. And it's a simple dynamic. He is the best driver of the basketball in the world, and he's one of the highest field goal percentage pull-up shooters in the world.

That's the give and take with it. He logged 265 more drives than any other player in the NBA this year. In other words, four more per game than anyone in the NBA this year. And he's one of the highest field goal percentage pull-up shooters in the world at out of the 13 players to take at least 500 pull-up jump shots this year, only Demartorosen shot a higher field goal percentage than Shea. And Shea was more efficient because he took more threes. Shea shot 45% on mid-ray, on pull-up jump shots, 1.06 points per shot. This puts every defender, even fantastic defenders like J.D. McDaniels, in a bind.

You have to overreact to the drive. But at the same time, you have to overreact to the pull-up, because he's so good at both. And this is where Shea's brilliance comes into the equation because he's remarkably gifted at selling one or the other, changing pace, selling fakes. He has a ridiculous ability to chain together counter moves. I've never seen a player that can get into your body

and cross over and get into your body and behind the back and get into your body and spin and just counter, counter, counter, until you eventually give up that angle. And when you give up, when you give up that angle, that's when he goes downhill on you. And if you concede space, he's one of the best over the top shooters in the lead.

One of the things he was doing tonight that I found really interesting, whether it was in ball screens or in ISO situations, he's snaking the help defender. You guys ever see this in ball screens? We're like, a guy will come over the top of the screen and then he'll cross back over to the direction he originally came from.

And the big man will have like no idea what to do as he kind of works back towards the middle. She will do that on drives. He'll hard drive. Someone will hard step over and help, and he'll just immediately cross back over into the middle. And now all of a sudden the help defenders got his body all shifted out of position. And he's right at the front of the rim again. It's one of the biggest reasons why I think Minnesota absolutely must change their game plan.

This whole situation gets exacerbated by Jada McDaniel's ball pressure. I talked about this in game one. You guys saw it again on the last driving layup that he had down the right side of the lane tonight. when Jaden is picking him up 28 feet from the basket, that's just food for Shea. He's going right around him every single time. We did see some shift from Finch. We saw some zone.

That didn't work. We'll talk about it in a minute. Again, they tried doubling in the fourth quarter a little bit more. I don't think those are the answers. I'll talk about it in a minute when we start talking about Minnesota's adjustments, but the weaknesses for OKC that have been on display this postseason is sometimes Shea will force the issue through multiple bodies when the defense is trying to force him to be a passer.

He'll force it sometimes. And two, their catch and shoot guys can go deadly cold sometimes. In this defensive scheme, which takes away catch and shoot threes, let's Shea work one on one and pressures the ball, which allows him to drive to the basket, it is literally playing directly into Oklahoma City's hands. Every playoff series is a chess match. And that chess match starts with your baseline scheme,

usually a defensive scheme geared towards the matchup. For Chris Finch and the Wolves, it was geared towards exactly what they did in the regular season to everybody. It's their kind of like stock scheme that they use, right? And nothing is going to change for either team until you show an ability to beat that base scheme. You want to know why we saw Zone out of Minnesota tonight. You want to know why we saw doubling because they're grasping at straws because Shea is killing them one on one.

You want to know why OKC has more or less been doing the same thing on defense through the entire series to this point. It's because Ant keeps trying to force his way into traffic. Julius Randall forced his way right out of the game tonight. They are not showing the ability to dislodge Oklahoma City from their base scheme. part of that is Minnesota's walked into this series with a certain amount of ego thinking we have the best individual defenders in the league. Look what we did to Luca. Look what we did to LeBron. Look what we did to Austin. And, you know, obviously the dregs of the Golden State roster after Steph got, got hurt. But like, they went in that series thinking they were going to be just fine. And

again, like, what did I complain about in the Lakers series? What did I say consistently? Why did Minnesota win because LeBron couldn't score because Luca couldn't score because Austin couldn't score when they needed to score in the pivotal moments of the game. Shea continually has given these dudes buckets. They can't guard him one on one. And so here we are through two games and as we head back to Minnesota, they've got to shift their base scheme. And we'll see what happens next. I'm going to talk some Minnesota adjustments in a minute. Oklahoma City. beating the zone. I thought it really came down to two things. They're offensive rebounding. And again, this is a problem

with zone in general. You're not matched up with individual offensive players. And so there's a tendency to give up cuts and crashes because you're just not matched up with guys and you can give up offensive rebounds in that way. And then Alex Cruz, his ability to score in the middle of the floor. One of the things you'll see

against the zone, especially when you've got a Chet Holmgren or an Isaiah Hartenstein that can be a vertical spacer or underneath the basket, the big man will not want to come out to the middle of the floor. He won't want to come out to the middle because he'll give up that lob or that dump. So with the top guys being concerned with the guys on the top, tracking the three point line, corner guys the same thing. A lot of two, three zones will concede a catch there in the middle.

And Caruso over and over again, just kept catching the ball in the middle of the floor and scoring there as he was left open. And so the zone just didn't work for Minnesota to slow down Oklahoma City in this game. I thought J-Dub and Chet were both fantastic. Chet's been really effective in this series around the rim as a score since basically the second half of game one. And a big part of that is that same dynamic we were talking about earlier. Everything's like in ball screens, they're being defended two on two. in the one-on-ones when they're offering help,

they're not like swarming. They're bringing one guy over, usually the big, in which case when he steps over, Chet's finding opportunities as an offensive rebounder. Both Chet and J. Dubb were deadly in transition in this game. I thought that was big. But to get 50 or excuse me,

to get 48 points from those two guys, that's one of the best supporting scoring games we've seen the Thunder get in this postseason. And then overall just Oklahoma City's defense, which has been fantastic in this entire playoff run. They erased Julius Randall in this game. If you guys remember, I talked before the series about the specific thing that tilted me back towards Oklahoma City,

even though my initial gut feeling was that Minnesota had advantage in this series. The big thing that tilted me back towards Oklahoma City was the specific dynamic you saw tonight, the inability to get the ball to Julius Randall in an advantageous scoring position. Oklahoma City went back to the exact same approach that they used against Denver, was just fronting the post. And we saw multiple steals on plays where Julius tried to get the arm into the back and create that over the top passing angle.

Pass comes in over the top. But there's ball pressure so that pass is like a looping pass. And here comes Lou Dort shooting in on the back line to get that steal. I think it was Shea that got the other one coming over and swiping away against the post front as he brackets from behind. their defense has been fantastic in the series, the ball pressure, the rim contests, the Shay has been causing some problems for Ant with like late contests at the rim. He forced to miss.

You got a block on a late one where it got bailed out by an iffy foul call. There's a, there is a layered effect to this Oklahoma City defense that is having big time impact on Minnesota. Minnesota notes, couple things. The big thing is they need to change their defensive approach. I don't think the answer is zone. I don't think the answer is ball pressure. I don't think the answer is double teaming.

I think the answer is you play defense the way Denver did. You have Jaden McDaniels sit in a passive defensive stance where he's meeting Shea closer to the elbows. We saw that when Jaden kind of gives space, he can close ground and get a great contest on a Shea pull up three instead of pressuring shea he needs to be playing off sitting back making shea drive into him where he has more time to anticipate the driving angle and to beat him to spots and it's more likely to bait she and to pull up jump shots then i do think they need to be using the denver approach

of gaping really hard getting into the point where you've got four bodies in the paint consistently and dare she and these guys to beat you in the half court as past When you double team Shea out at half court, it creates a four on three in a massive area of space. There's so much space to work with there. You guys have seen the Golden State Warriors annihilate teams for a decade using those four on threes with that kind of space. When you double, double team quote unquote, Shea in the form of more like three, four bodies in the paint consistently, that is a situation that creates the advantage for Oklahoma City. the perimeter. Make Shea relentlessly hunt kickout reeds. Make these dudes knock down contested jump shots.

Now, one of the things is I did think it was defensible, even though I do think this game, this series was inevitably careening towards a defensive shift towards more what I'm talking about. I did think that it was defensible to try it again tonight. it was defensible because theoretically you kept game one close and you just missed a ton of kickout threes so in theory you go into game two you stick with your base defensive game plan guys shoot better and you have a chance to go back uh back home with a one one series and maybe you can hold that card in your back pocket.

But now through two games, it's abundantly clear that these guys aren't going to be able to knock down enough of those kickouts in the corner against those contests. And so now it's at the point where, now it's at the point where you have to consider changing your defensive approach. You've got to get more stops than you've been getting. Oklahoma City, since the first half of game one has consistently scored at high volume, 70 points in the second half of game one, 58 points in the first half of game two,

60 points in the second half of game two, they are scoring on you consistently for a game and a half now. You have to change that scheme. I also think it's defensible in the sense that it's hard to win on the road. And so throwing that, like game three is a must win now. You got to get that one. So I like the idea of going into game three and shifting your scheme. in that game, where you're also getting the benefit of role players being more comfortable,

feeding off of the crowd, potentially Oklahoma City's role players getting less comfortable. That's where I think that could, you know, especially with the scheme change, that could tilt things more heavily towards Minnesota. And so I think, I think in game three, there needs to be way less ball pressure, way more of a contain and compact the paint, force Shea to beat you with the pass, force Oklahoma City to beat you from the perimeter instead of letting them knife you to pieces in the middle of the lane like they have

through the first two games. Another 58 points in the paint tonight for Oklahoma City. A couple of the things. I talked about in game one, how I would potentially consider leaning into Rudy Gobert more. No more of that. I thought Rudy was bad tonight. I thought he was bad on defense and I thought he was nightmarishly bad on offense. He got 30 minutes tonight.

I didn't think he was effective at any point. So I'm kind of over the Rudy Gobert experience in this series. The complete inability to finish anything in the pocket. And then on defense, like him not contesting Isaiah Hartinstein's floater down low, even though we got clear at film from the Denver series, that that's how you bother him.

The, okay, you're on a switch against Che Gilles, Alexander or handling Shea in a drop coverage, and you're just fouling him, every time he's not providing any real resistance. I don't see the Rudy value in this series anymore. So we talked about that as being a potential option to explore in game one or after game one. You explored it more tonight. No more need to explore that territory.

I don't think this is a series where Rudy can be very effective. Julius Randall has to change his approach. I thought he tried to force his way through a slump today. We talked a lot about this example in the, last few weeks in our playback sessions, but the idea of like, how do you get yourself out of a slump when the shots aren't falling? There's option one, which is take every shot you can get your eyes on. We saw a lot of that with like Dante Divencenzhenzo in game one, for example. And in that sort of situation, you're most likely just going to compound the problem because you're probably going to be

taking a bunch of iffy shots that are low percentage under any circumstances, especially when you're not in a good rhythm. The second method is find ways to generate easy shots and derive confidence from the dirty work, meaning defend your ass off, rebound your ass off, control everything that's in your control, which will help boost your confidence to where you feel better on the offensive end. And then on the offensive end, fight for easy looks, transition pushes, offensive rebound crashes, anything with the real advantage, whether it's the post mismatch, or it's a, you know, a semi-transition opportunity where you can drop your shoulder. There's a very brief stretch in the third quarter where Julius, like, really started to force the issue physically.

You got like a deep transition seal for a bucket, another like deep post up and then a couple of like semi-transition pushes. And I'm like, hey, like, this is better. But there was a huge stretch of the game where he was already one for five, one for six, and he's just taking every semi-contested three he can get his hands on. And like, that's just not going to get you out of that sort of slump. Again, there's, and this is where I'll move to the last adjustment here. Aunt and Julius have to be looking to be aggressive with an advantage, not at the beginning of the possession. At the beginning of the possession, they're attacking a loaded up Oklahoma City defense that is praying to God that they will do something stupid like try to score through

all of them in the paint. The on ball guy, whether it's Julius or it's aunt or it's one of the role players needs to be looking. And by the way, one of the things they're doing with the other role players is they're not overreacting as much on those pushes, but or anything in the middle of the floor. But if Julius and aunt, whether it's through the post or it's through a pick and roll or an ISO or whatever it is, get the ball to the middle, get it sprayed out. From there, drive and kick spacing, get out of the middle of the floor, somewhere where you can get back in a position to catch. That guy will either catch and shoot and make a wide open catch and shoot three

or against a close out, we'll drive, and now you have an opportunity to attack when the defense is shifted and sprinting at you. That is where Ant and Julius can look to be aggressive in score. This is not an on-ball scoring series for Aunt and Julius. It is an on-ball playmaking and off-ball scoring series for Aunt and Julius. They have to make that adjustment or they are never going to crack OKC out of their base scheme. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what?

We have some big news. What's the news, huge news? We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts.

We're starting a trend. But this one's... extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. We were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names

of our band before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas. And offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys.

Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smigel and Friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel. help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform?

We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis. And I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs. And on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris.

every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on Clay. Jen she went. I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lena Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now, and I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck.

Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs Tennis Podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts. or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano, and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed.

And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows. Without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs. I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense.

And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He running up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball. Like, you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah. you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball.

So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, before we get to our mailback questions, let's do our course correction segment on Shay's MVP. Welcome to course correction, brought to you by Microsoft. Just like star players and teams navigating performance hurdles, business decision makers today are under immense pressure to get things right. They must rise to the occasion, turning challenges into opportunities.

Microsoft empowers these visionaries with AI solutions, simplified cloud and data management, and trustworthy, responsible AI. And when you're in the NBA, you have your own hurdles to face. In this segment, we will highlight the player every week that has risen to the occasion when his team needed him. Whatever challenge you're facing, Microsoft empowers you with the expertise to say, bring it on.

This week's player of the week is the 2025 MVP of the NBA, Shea Gildes-Alexander. Shea had a remarkable statistical season. 33 points per game, five rebound, six assists, one point seven steals in a block, 64% true shooting. That's somehow underselling how important he was to the Oklahoma City offense. Per cleaning the glass, the Thunder offense was 9.1 points per 100 possessions better when he was on the floor versus off. The strength of the Thunder is their defense. We all know that. And their defense is elite down the roster, regardless of who is on the floor, including Shea.

But they could not score what Shea off the floor this year. They had a 114.8 offensive rating with him off. For perspective, that's a lower offensive rating than the Houston Rockets logged this year in the regular season. But they had a 124 offensive rating when Shea was on the floor, which is three points better than the number one offense in the league, the Cleveland Cavaliers. We were talking about Nicole Yokic having the greatest offensive season of all time.

of 126 offensive rating with Yokic on the floor. Shea was producing with that Thunder offense at nearly the same level. In other words, the Thunder offense went from mediocre to elite top-tier production when Shea was on the floor. And this goes beyond the metrics to the eye test. There were so many times this year where Shea's entire supporting cast lost their confidence and he had no choice but to completely take control of the game. he was also one of the most reliably great scores in the league this year

She had just nine games this season where he shot below 40% from the field for comparison a guy like Ant 25 such games oh well aunt takes a lot of threes okay how about Brunson Brunson's a guy who lives in the mid-range 21 times this year Brunson shot below 40% from the field how is it that Shea is so reliably good on the defensive end of the floor? Well, for starters, two thirds of his shot attempts come within 17 feet. So there's very little variance because there's very little long range jump shooting.

And then on those short range jumpers, which would be the one thing in there that has a lot of variance, he shot 54% on jumpers inside a 17 feet. So he was deadly on the one thing in. in his two-thirds of his game that occurs within 17 feet of the rim, that would theoretically come with some variance. He also got to the rim an absurd amount. We talked about his drives earlier. 550 attempts at the rim this season, according to Synergy, for perspective.

Nicola Locke, Nicola Yokic logged 553 attempts at the rim this season, only three more than She did. I thought he was very much deserving of the MVP. I'm a big Yokic fan, and I do think, Yokich is a better basketball player than Shea is. But that's not the purpose of this award. It's a regular season award. And Shea was the best regular season player in the league this year.

For by far the best team in the league, they finished 18 games ahead of Denver. I also thought Yokic let go of the rope defensively in the second half of the season and that played directly into the problems they had down the stretches. They slid down the standings and had to fire their coach. I heard a lot of talk about Yokic having the greatest offensive of season ever and us looking back this year and thinking that the MVP decision we made was a mistake, I don't see it that way at all. I think SGA's MVP case is beyond well deserved.

I don't think any player in the league had a reasonable case to be over him. So congratulations to Shea. Obviously, he just won the MVP, but at this point, I would be stunned if the Thunder didn't win the title. I think they match up extremely. extremely well with both Indiana and New York, two teams that rely on guard play and speed in Oklahoma City has just got better speed and better guard play, while also being better defensively on the backline than both of those teams. I think they would dispatch of both the Knicks and the Pacers in five games or less. And at this point, you're up to O in the Western Conference finals in Minnesota hasn't even come remotely close to dislodging you from your

base game plan. What does that tell me? That tells me this time a month from now, the Thunder are going to be hoisting the trophy, and Shea won't just be an MVP, he'll be a finals MVP. And if you start to look at the Thunder and the assets they have at their disposal and the age of their roster

and the fact that they still have so much room to improve, it might not even be the first one he gets. That's it for this week's course correction. Remember Microsoft's AI solutions empower you to take bold steps, make informed decisions, sparking new ideas to help drive your business forward. With Microsoft as your trusted partner, you can navigate your journey with confidence,

finding innovative solutions, and reaching new possibilities. Visit Microsoft.com slash challengers to learn more. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, huge news? We created our own podcast called, Hey, Jonas. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how did we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys?

I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it and... Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a

very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, hey Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad Hey Jonas and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel

help an a cappella band with their between songs band Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The French Open is one of the toughest tests in tennis. And I know firsthand because I competed there myself. I'm Renee Stubbs.

And on the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast, I'm breaking down everything happening at Roland Garris. Every match, every upset, and what it really takes to win on clay. Genschen win. I mean, she went down in three to Rabakina, but I'm delighted. She's an outsider to win the French for me. And she likes Clay. Listen, Lena Rubakina is arguably the best player in the world right now. And I actually can win on any surface. Because if she's serving, well, good luck.

Consider this your court side seat to the French Open. Listen to the Renee Stubbs tennis podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeartWartW. in sports. What's up fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm CJ Toledano and our podcast Point Game is about defying the odds. Like LeBron heading into the playoffs without Luca and Austin Reed. And finding ways to win no matter what. He's the smartest player to ever play the game. His IQ is at a level that we've never seen before. And he knows without Luca and Austin Reeves, I got to manipulate the game. We get a player's perspective on the challenges of the playoffs.

I think Joker's going to be exhausted this series because when they don't have Rudy in the lineup, he has to really guard guys like Nas Reid. He has to guard Julius Randall. And then he has to give us everything he gives us on the night-to-night basis on offense. And when IT's friends stop by, like Quentin Richardson, we dive into some playoff history too. Steve Nash would get that thing. That man, hell get the flying. He run up the court, licking his fingers why he got the ball like, after you go through a training camp with that, Isaiah, you figure it out real quick. Get your ass up and down the court, and you're going to get the ball. So listen to Point Game on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right. Jackson's going to come on stage and we're going to take 10, 15 minutes of questions. First question. And this person said probably a little bit early to ask this kind of question. But now that they're continuing to dominate, is this OKC defense one of the best ever? And if they win the title, will they be one of the best teams ever? So you're never going to hear me talk about a basketball team being one of the best basketball teams ever until they win multiple championships. I'm consistent about this stuff. Here's a really simple way to put it.

Boston had a similar year last year where they ran through the entire league, won 64 games, kicked everyone's ass in the postseason, never even felt remotely threatened. Like Oklahoma City showed some flaws against Denver and looked like threatened at one point in time. I told Boston fans at the time, I didn't see them as an all-time great team because you kind of have to earn that right with me. And guys, like, I'm pretty consistent about this stuff.

Like, it was the same thing with Yokic. back in the day, like, I think that there's a conversation you can have about who's the best at something, but I'm usually the guy that, like, wants to see you accomplish the ultimate goal first. I don't like theoretical success. I like real life success. And so for me, like, I think the Thunder have every possibility to be an all-time great team that wins multiple championships. And when they do, if they do, we will acknowledge them as such, but I don't, I don't like to jump the gun there. As far as the defense goes, and again, we got to see, see it survive like multiple seasons. So like say, say for instance, you beat Denver again next year, a different Denver team or you beat

like a spurs team that has Janus and Wembe and Deer and Fox. Like the idea of winning multiple championships involves two separate seasons where you beat four different teams in four different rounds that are very different types of teams. And so the defense side of it, I need to see that defense have that success through multiple playoff runs. That said, I absolutely see that upside. And I thought it manifested in them. That Denver offense was unbelievable all year. And for extended stretches, not only did they, quote unquote, dislodge or frustrate

Denver's offense, they played Yokic into probably the worst three-game stretch have ever seen him play in game two, three, and four. So, it was a three, four, and five, I can't even remember. I think it was two, three and four. But like, yeah, like, the defense certainly has that capability. The team overall certainly has that capability. I'm just not the guy to start throwing around the all-time great phrase until you win multiple championships. Yeah, I think that's fair.

They do look, it feels, it feels like they're at a different level defensively than the rest of the league, which I think is something that speaks volumes and is why these conversations are at least, it's fair to at least start them because even they haven't won even one title yet. they certainly haven't won two, but it feels obvious on the eye test that they are a gap from the second best even to the NBA, which feels like something we haven't talked about much other than like you have four pistons, you know, which is not to say that they're as good as as that team defensively, but that gap is why I think these conversations are at least, you know, reasonable at this point. And to your point, like, you want to know why the pistons are remembered that way, not only did they beat Shaq and the Shaq and the Shaq and Kobe Lakers, but they made an additional run to the NBA finals.

and I can't remember exactly what it was, but they were in the Eastern Conference Final, something like five or six years in a row. Like they were perennially playing in May and June. And so they resonated with us because of that. And that's the thing. Like, guys, like, all you have to do is make yourself irrefutable. Like, I know it sounds simple to say.

But like, do it. And at a certain point, no one can say anything. Like, it's like the Steph Curry thing. Everyone was all, Steph only one because of Katie. injuries. Oh, Steph only one with KD and injuries. What happened then? He won without KD and without as much talent as the team he was going against. And now Steph is stamped forever. If you look at Stefan, you don't see why he's good. I can't even talk basketball with you because it's unassailable what he did. This is the beginning of a

potentially long journey that all they have to do is keep knocking teams out and they're going to have that reputation of being one of the all time great teams on both ends of the floor. For sure. Another question about O KC. Why do you think think this okay this was a super chat question by the way thank you for the super chat uh why do you think this okay c team is so disliked when it feels like they're similar to sort of an early 2000s era basketball team basketball fans have said they wanted defense and driving the ball they got it and yet somehow they're still disliked thoughts a couple things i think that uh when a team is kicking everyone's ass they tend to become universally disliked that uh at uh jackson i'm sure you could speak to that as a

fan of the Celtics over the years and as someone who, uh, you know, worked with Draymond and covered the Warriors very closely. Like, no one likes getting their ass kicked. I think, I think everyone, I think everyone sees the writing on the wall a little bit, which is like Oklahoma City will probably go into next season as like a pretty substantial favorite. Like probably somewhere in the like, like if you had, if, I would, I would, I would guess that O.K.C. would enter next season at like almost even odds to win the title. I would too, which is crazy. Like, and so like they're, they're the best team that we've seen in terms of like overall, uh, two-way talent to the since the, um, the team that Kevin Durant

and Steph Curry were on in that Warriors, uh, you stretch there in the late 2010s, but they don't have some of the fragility that we saw with Boston where it's like, well, Chrisops Porzingis can't stay healthy and Al Horford is getting very old and like J-dub or excuse me like Jalen William Brown and Jason Tatum are both kind of like rickety stars that have the potential to like spiral in big moments like Shay is just she is just a more reliably great star at the head of it and they're younger and healthier and more athletic and so it's easier to see more sustained success and I think everyone is kind of experiencing a similar feel to what the warriors looked like when Kevin Durant was on the team where it's like how the hell are we going to

beat these guys you know and then I think the second part of it is like like you and I were complaining about this before the show like Shea is so amazing and so is Jalen Brunson the two of them are so unbelievably good and like I like for some reason when I see Shea go down in a pivotal third quarter run and unleash the low gather on Nikiel Alexander Walker and just drive through his chest and then throw up a left-handed floater that like literally no basketball player would ever take under any circumstances unless they were expressly looking for a foul and he banks it in and the crowd goes crazy and it's like this big moment right like it feels like Shay driving the nail in the coffin of game too and it just kind of is like oh but it's a non-basketball play that's

gross. And so I think there's a certain amount of that that's kind of eaten at people a little bit. But I would, I would even say that's hails in comparison to the simple fact that everyone's just scared shitless that these guys are going to be impossible to beat for the next couple of years. Yeah. I think that is so on point. And I think the fact that it feels like there's no other real contender combined with the fact that they have perfectly seemingly executed this like draft your stars and draft your role players thing. They kind of have done it the way that people want team. to do it and yet nobody likes it because they're so unstoppable.

Next question. J. Deb has looked a lot better this series and he did last series. What do you think he has done differently? Has he done something differently? Or is it sort of just making more shots? It's the one, it's, it's the defensive scheme. Both Shay and J-Dub looked bad in the second round except for crunch time

because of the fact that the two of them kept trying to force it through Denver's defense and take stupid-ass shots. Like Minnesota is letting these dudes play one-on-one and both of them look way more comfortable as a result. And like that, that really to me is like exactly what makes Minnesota's game plan so dumb. The entire purpose of a defensive game plan in the postseason is to make your opponent uncomfortable.

And they have allowed Shea and J-Dub and even Chet to get comfortable because they're playing in a setting that kind of fits their skill set perfectly. Yeah. We'll do a couple more questions. over to playback. Hey Jason, Minnesota seemed to spark a comeback with Rudy and Julius off the floor in the fourth quarter. Is that type of lineup specifically or just in general small ball, something you think they can be successful with going forward? A couple things. I think that they need to go without Gobert anyway. I think that was pretty clear. You don't bail on Julius for the series.

I thought it made sense to bail on him tonight because he was just out of it. But Julius, they're not winning this series unless Julius plays better. But like I also thought there was like a classic example of like a little bit of a relenting of the intensity from Oklahoma City. I thought Ant got like two or three kind of questionable whistles on plays where he didn't really get foul, but he was just driving through four bodies and it's almost like a sympathy whistle. There was like just a level of like kind of downhill desperation verve that Minnesota was playing with that Oklahoma City wasn't matching. Like I thought most of what happened at the end of that game was like kind of classic fake comeback stuff. Really quickly, just so you guys have some numbers, the zone possessions, Oklahoma City 15 possessions of

zone 1.13 points per possession. So they were successful against it all night long. Minnesota 21 unguarded catch and shoot shots in this game and they only got 0.86 points per shot. And like really that's kind of the main thing. And like if there's one defense to throw at aunt for him just trying to ram his head through a brick wall tonight, it's that his teammates are all shit in the bed. Because like there's a certain amount of like none of them can score in these advantages that Oklahoma City is gift wrapping for them. And at a certain point, I think he's just looking at the situation and going, well, never mind, I'll do it myself, you know.

Yeah. Nikiel finally had some hit some shots. But when Julius Randall and Nasrider combined two for a million, it's like, what are you supposed to do? Exactly. Exactly. Last question before playback. Hi, Jason, big fan of the show.

What do you think has caused so many stars getting injured in this playoffs? And is there anything to do to prevent it? Yes. there is something to do to prevent it. I think that this has been pretty clear for a half decade now, which is that the hunt for additional possessions

through higher-paced play, the drive-and-kick spacing, the four-out one-in relocating spacing with like lots of super hard close-outs and covering ground and transition, there's no doubt that the style of play is infinitely harder on the lower

body than what the 80s and 90s look like, or even the 2000s, right? And so I think that I think that the NBA has a problem that they have to look to address, which is that in multiple consecutive post seasons now, we're not just seeing like a couple stars get hurt. Like it's happening to three, four, five guys in every single postseason run, torn Achilles, torn ACLs, foot injuries. Like, there's, there's just a clear sign that the modern an NBA game is more taxing on the body than it used to be. I think that there's a very simple solution, which is to shorten the season.

You cut it down to 66 games. You play at most three times a week. Every team has a guaranteed two-day off-stretch every single week. You space out the games in a way that one benefits you financially in the form of stars participating more frequently in higher urgency because if you shrink the season by 20 percent you increase the value of each regular season win by 20 percent right that's just a theoretical just 20 percent increase in in urgency every single night and then i think you give the body a chance to recover from what is a grueling game and then i would do it in the postseason as

well like there's just so many games it's so easy to protract it there's no reason at all why you can't play every third night in the postseason, especially if you shorten the season. You could start playing in October, play 66 games, never have a back-to-back, have that bit of time off, and then you could be in a situation in the postseason where guys aren't being forced to play every other night and traveling from city to city. I think the NBA has got to have a real honest conversation with themselves about whether or not the money is worth the wear and terror of putting on these guys' bodies because I think the modern game is just too much for them. All right, guys, that is all we have for tonight. As always, we

sincerely appreciate you guys for supporting us and supporting the show. Playback.com. TV slash Hoops Tonight is where we're going for the after show. I'll see you guys there. What's up, guys? As always, as always, I appreciate you for listening to and supporting Hoops tonight. It would actually be really helpful for us if you guys would take a second and leave a rating and a review. As always, I appreciate you guys supporting us. But if you could take a minute to do that, I'd really appreciate it. The Volume Hey guys, it's us

The Jonas Brothers, I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick, and guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. Nice. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it.

We just contributed to it. We get to ask other people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know, tired and sick. Tired and sick.

Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late-night comedy guy, not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman

help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an a cappella band with their between songs banter. Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes. Those people are starving for banter. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get,

your podcasts. What's up, fam? It's Isaiah Thomas. And I'm C.J. Toledano. It's our favorite time of the year on our podcast, Point Game, the playoffs. We're digging into the biggest surprises of the season. And I'm looking back on some of my greatest playoff moments. If we didn't talk ever again, I was hiring.

You just understood. That's how personal it got. Wow. Then after that game seven, Marquis come in. He's like, you know, I love you, dog. You know, it's all love. This was just playoffs. This was just basketball.

So listen to Point Game on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Most people out here think that taking care of one another is important. And most people would step up for a neighbor going through a tough time. Most people around here help out friends and family when they need it. But the funny thing is, most of us won't look for help when we need it. Talk to someone if you're struggling with mental health because most people out here really care. Find more information at loveyourmindtay.org. That's loveyourmindtay.org. Brought to you by the Huntsman Mental Health Institute and the Ad Council. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.